What is your best (or the best you've seen) explanation of the following?
(Matt. 25:46)
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".
And these will go away into temporary punishment, but the righteous into temporary life
I think real eternal life starts when God becomes all-in-all.
Just before that event the sinners get punished/corrected for a while
The saints have a prequel to eternal life just before all-in-all.
Or in other words: Everlasting happiness for the saints starts (much) sooner than for the sinners.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2014, 09:44:25 AM
And these will go away into temporary punishment, but the righteous into temporary life
I think real eternal life starts when God becomes all-in-all.
Just before that event the sinners get punished/corrected for a while
The saints have a prequel to eternal life just before all-in-all.
Or in other words: Everlasting happiness for the saints starts (much) sooner than for the sinners.
:iagree:
Revelation 20:6 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT) "Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising.." "This is the First Resurrection."
Revelation 20:5-15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB) "The rest of the dead did" (do) "not come to life until the thousand years were" (are) "completed.."
John 8:20-21,24 - (YLT) - "Jesus spake in the treasury" (
to the Pharisees) "teaching in the temple, and no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come; therefore said Jesus again to them, `I go away, and ye will seek me, and in your sin ye shall die; whither I go, ye are not able to come.. ...I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.'
Matthew 8:11-12 - (NASB) "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Revelation 22:10-16 - (YLT) - "And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;" (always nigh! whether the 'end' collectively as prophesied, or the 'end' personally at death) "he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still: And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last. `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city; and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie. `I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!"
Revelation 2:7 - (NKJV) - "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."
Revelation 13:9 - (YLT) "if any one hath an ear -- let him hear."
20:7-15 - (YLT) "And when the thousand years be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them; and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet" (not men! but two institutions of men) "and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages" ("
for aion and aion" in the original Greek).
Resurrection of all unsaved = "And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works; and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death; and if any one was not found" (by then!?) "written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire."
:hiya:
:2thumbs:
I understand what you mean Tony by "temporary punishment and temporary life"...I think that's a good, direct explanation, i.e., the period of time and what's happening [first resurrection, etc.] prior to when the Bible "ends" in Paul's writings, God becoming All in All/reigning, all things under His foot [submission/reconciliation]. I got to thinking though, for guests passing through who have always been indoctrinated with the "eternal" hell/punishment concept. They may think it's crazy or blasphemous to say the Matthew verse more accurately means 'temporary'. *So wanted to add to the guests, it has to do with the words aion/aionion/olam - which church tradition the past 1500 years has taught as meaning forever, but actually has more to do with a future age/time period with a beginning and end. So Paul describes "forever" by God becoming all in all and also speaking of immortality and describing God with the word 'adios', which does mean without end. Also, Jesus only spoke of temporary punishment/correction (right now the phrase is slipping my mind). Someone remember the phrase? I'm getting old. Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on January 17, 1970, 05:25:38 AMSo Paul describes "forever" by God becoming all in all and also speaking of immortality and describing God with the word 'adios', which does mean without end.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in
everlasting chains under darkness to the judgment of the great day.
Everlasting = adios
It can be argued everlasting ends at the day of judgement. Some may say they chains aren't removed then. I think they are but that's off-topic in this thread.
Josephus has the same word for John's imprisonment "for life" (The Jewish War 6.434).
John's everlasting ended a very long time ago.
Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2014, 09:19:53 PM
Also, Jesus only spoke of temporary punishment/correction (right now the phrase is slipping my mind). Someone remember the phrase? I'm getting old. Thanks.
Dunno about a phrase but Jesus always used: Kolasis punishment and that mean corrective/restorative punishment.
(opposed to timora punishment wich mean retributive punishment)
Timora is used only once in the NT.
Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, are
you supposing,.....
You=the people who have no clue what they are talking about. Not Father, Son or anyone under guidance of the HS.
Timora and Kolasis isn't just quibling about spelling or semantics. I think that word in itself is proof of UR.
Correcting is about teaching someone 'the hard way'.
God being perfect in all His actions is also a perfect teacher.
So a never ending correction means a crappy teacher. ---> The teacher tries but the student never learns. ---> Teacher failed.
Jesus always used: Kolasis punishment (corrective/restorative/pruning)
Opposed to timora punishment. (Retributive punishment/vengeance)
Good point. Kind of like Jonah was "forever" in the belly of the whale, or Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed "forever" but elsewhere scripture states it will be restored...
So maybe it boils down to "eternal" is really and truly described as "God All in All" and when it speaks of 'immortal/immortality'.. I know of no place in scripture where punishment, the unrighteous, etc. are ever described as 'immortal', at least in that present condition?
kolasis(n) aionios(n) is the one I was trying to remember...thanks
Another way to look at it, as least grammatically, is to see it in the Aramaic, which is what I use. There, both life and anguish are said to be דלעלם, literally 'of to horizon'.
The 'of' tells me that this use of 'olam' (horizon...something obscure) is not speaking about a period of time at all, but of a source, the nature of the thing, meaning...
Both the life and the anguish are, by nature, sourced from the obscure, from God himself.
Sodom and Gomorrah are a perfect example of that, where fire that destroyed them is said to have brought destruction דלעלם, meaning it came from heaven, from God himself. He was the source of it.
So, from what I see, when 'olam' or 'aion' is joined with words like 'life, destruction, punishment, etc', it is describing the nature and source of those things, not time.
Ronen
Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2014, 08:58:55 AM
What is your best (or the best you've seen) explanation of the following?
(Matt. 25:46)
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".
I actually think this is a judgment for Christians. First thing I look at is this:
Matthew 25
44 Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick
It's interesting to me that they say "Lord," and we know that there are many who say "Lord, Lord" but work iniquity. Christ will say "I never knew you, away from me you who work iniquity." The sheep and goat parable is all about those who worked iniquity and say "Lord."
When I see this I think about the parable of the wedding feast, and an interesting thing you find there.
Judgment for those who are not in the wedding feast (The Bride)Matthew 22
2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave
a wedding feast for his son. 3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast,
and they were unwilling to come. 4 Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' 5 But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
Judgment for those who do enter the wedding feast (The Bride)8 Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' 10 Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found,
BOTH EVIL AND GOOD; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there
who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants,
'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14
For many are [f]called, but few are chosen."Many are called but few chosen. I have often spoke on this forum of what I believe the "outer darkness" is, a spiritual state of sinfulness, a Prodigal Son judgment of being handed over to one's own darkness to be broken down and made thirsty to heed the words of the "Spirit and the Bride" who say: come all you who are athirst and drink the water of life freely.
Those who do not continue to abide in Christ, I believe will be judged as the Prodigal Son experienced, for God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud.
The same word for both groupsTo me it means an "aionios" judgment, one pertaining to an age called "The Day of the Lord" in which the "few chosen" will take the gospel to the world that is in birthing pains like a pregnant woman and who need Christ, and at the end of that aion, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.
I believe when we understand "punishment" as a process that we must learn as "chastisement" and we all know about eternal, at least we hope.
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 13, 2014, 11:03:01 PM
The 'of' tells me that this use of 'olam' (horizon...something obscure) is not speaking about a period of time at all, but of a source, the nature of the thing, meaning...
That's indeed how the Jews define it. It over the horizon and only God knows what's beyond the horizon. OT gives a vast range of durations for olam. 3 days in jonah 2:6, remainder of a slaves life, periods of centuries.
But that's not going to help Ronen. They will just claim olam also can mean without an end. Same story for aion the endless age. While I totally agree with what you wrote it's never going to convince them because it will cause major stumbling blocks for them.
What's needed is an explanation that shows that the life of those on the right will never end. God is without beginning and end. (the famous aionian God 'problem') And a few more similar things.
Golden rule of Bible scholarship: Doctrine determines context, context defines words and words prove doctrine is correct. :rolllol:
To me, I think about 2 Tim 1:10, both life and immortality have been brought to light through the Gospel. It's pretty hard for immortals to die no matter what aion it is. But we have been given the "life of the age" now as a deposit toward that future glory, which is life from the dead, the Spirit.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 14, 2014, 06:53:43 AMWhile I totally agree with what you wrote it's never going to convince them because it will cause major stumbling blocks for them.
Bro, I gave up trying to convince anyone of anything long ago. I just share what I see.
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 14, 2014, 01:01:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 14, 2014, 06:53:43 AMWhile I totally agree with what you wrote it's never going to convince them because it will cause major stumbling blocks for them.
Bro, I gave up trying to convince anyone of anything long ago. I just share what I see.
I'm not blaming you for anything.
I think discussing greek and hebrew words has its value. Sometimes it's even enough to open someones eyes.
But often it just ends in an endless conversation. Sometimes it's just because the other person is unable to accept a word meaning because it just seems very wrong.
A good example is "aonian God" vs "eternal God". No Christian is going to accept God isn't eternal. Personally, I view that 'problem' as God is the God who created and actively manages His plan of the ages. But that doesn't mean He didn't exist before those ages and continues to exist after the ages.
Maybe we (this forum) should try to compile a list of such answers/explanations. I think it will increase the possibility of success.
1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal (aion), immortal (aphthartos), invisible (aoratos), the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever (eis aion aion - unto the age of the age). Amen.
God will never die, not because he is aionios, not because he is olam, generation to generation, but because he is immortal.
I like that 'olam' horizon connection...I can relate to the horizen in context with 'the ends of the earth...like..look to me and be
saved all ye ends of the earth. hori-zion...hoary hairs are grey/white with age...and I am He who girds you even unto your
gray hairs/old age[subsequently generation to generation coming and going under the sun.]
Just now able to get back on after a 3 day problem with AOL ...
Sometimes I believe its the Lord teaching patience and wait on Him
I love His ways !!!
that is a great question James , lots of great answers to everyone !!
and KNOW Gods judgment is just and perfect and oh so true
and judgment means to divide and sererate , His Word / SPIRIT does just that
and so its a perfect / complete separating
for me I believe its His WORD dividing us and separating us within , being the souland spirit and body
to whatever we are joined to thats NOT of HIM
seeing we are our own worst enemy , God is fair to separate our carnal from our spiritual minds , both suffer at times sometimes for sin and error and sometimes for the cause of Christ depending on the works done in the body
our body of death or the Body of Christ , I believe with all my heart we carry both at the same time
till death is no more
examples being God loves our Jacob and hates our Esau and our Jacob is changed to Israel
just as Simons was changed to Peter and Sauls to Paul when a different Vessel is showing honor and dishonor destroyed and changed to when God does this Judging diviving and separating within us
my carnal nature suffers loss and destruction constantly when the SPIRIT OF GOD MOVES upon us and the Spiritual nature begins to thrive and rise up out of the death mode of thinking and working
conviction is deciding what is wrong within us and needing Jesus Christ to make things right with God , Jesus does just that with the HOLY SPIRIT , for me the HOLY SPIRIT IS THE FATHER AND SON working together within each and every one of us the Law and GRACE
one is sentenced to death and the other Life just like the two thieves on the cross with Jesus in their midst [middle ] one is never mentioned again and the other is given paradise
I know thats not the ''normal '' thought process of most of mankind
but I am one who believes that Gods judgment /separating and divisions are His Own perfect works and to His own glory and praise
only a short time does any mortal dwell in the earth and mortality is given to every creature born of Gods Spirit which is Life going on to another diminsion of higher learning and education , everyone will know Gods Love in His creation in the end that is all done though Jesus Christ ..
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 14, 2014, 03:08:50 PM
I'm not blaming you for anything.
I know you weren't. I was just saying (with a smile) that I am not like I used to be, needing to try and convince everyone of my viewpoint. For me, and as you know Whitewings, I have been studying and meditating on the ancient ways of thinking, and also the language of the Hebrew peoples from the original pictograph script meanings, and it has truly opened my eyes (as you mentioned), but it ultimately will only come about to those who are looking and desiring to know. Like with this subject matter, I believe that we will have existence that never ends. I just do not believe that neither the phrase 'khia d'la'olam' or 'aionios zoe' conveys that idea. As Seth pointed out, there are other words that convey that concept very plainly. :)
QuoteI think discussing greek and hebrew words has its value. Sometimes it's even enough to open someones eyes.
But often it just ends in an endless conversation.
Isn't that what a message board is mostly about? :laughing7:
Yes, I have seen many debates on Mat 25:46.
There are those who use it as a pivotal scripture for their erroneous beliefs based on the translations like AKJ, NKJ, NIV, etc.
It is absolutely necessary to go to the Greek and Hebrew to get the meaning closest to the truth, but even then debates arise as we see here in this thread.
No scripture is of "private" interpretation for sure.
The use of the word immortality (aphthrsia) helps me in this kind of discussion.
I love this kind of fruitful, courteous discussion.
:iagree:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2014, 09:48:21 PM
Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2014, 09:19:53 PM
Also, Jesus only spoke of temporary punishment/correction (right now the phrase is slipping my mind). Someone remember the phrase? I'm getting old. Thanks.
Dunno about a phrase but Jesus always used: Kolasis punishment and that mean corrective/restorative punishment.
(opposed to timora punishment wich mean retributive punishment)
Timora is used only once in the NT.
Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing,.....
You=the people who have no clue what they are talking about. Not Father, Son or anyone under guidance of the HS.
Timora and Kolasis isn't just quibling about spelling or semantics. I think that word in itself is proof of UR.
Correcting is about teaching someone 'the hard way'.
God being perfect in all His actions is also a perfect teacher.
So a never ending correction means a crappy teacher. ---> The teacher tries but the student never learns. ---> Teacher failed.
Jesus always used: Kolasis punishment (corrective/restorative/pruning)
Opposed to timora punishment. (Retributive punishment/vengeance)
Wow. I didn't know that and I'm very happy to have read this. Thanks so much. :dsunny: :dsunny:
:iagree: :dsunny:
Quote from: Seth on March 14, 2014, 03:01:38 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2014, 08:58:55 AM
What is your best (or the best you've seen) explanation of the following?
(Matt. 25:46)
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".
I actually think this is a judgment for Christians. First thing I look at is this:
Matthew 25
44 Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick
It's interesting to me that they say "Lord," and we know that there are many who say "Lord, Lord" but work iniquity. Christ will say "I never knew you, away from me you who work iniquity." The sheep and goat parable is all about those who worked iniquity and say "Lord."
When I see this I think about the parable of the wedding feast, and an interesting thing you find there.
Judgment for those who are not in the wedding feast (The Bride)
Matthew 22
2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' 5 But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
Judgment for those who do enter the wedding feast (The Bride)
8 Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' 10 Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, BOTH EVIL AND GOOD; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 For many are [f]called, but few are chosen."
Many are called but few chosen. I have often spoke on this forum of what I believe the "outer darkness" is, a spiritual state of sinfulness, a Prodigal Son judgment of being handed over to one's own darkness to be broken down and made thirsty to heed the words of the "Spirit and the Bride" who say: come all you who are athirst and drink the water of life freely.
Those who do not continue to abide in Christ, I believe will be judged as the Prodigal Son experienced, for God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud.
The same word for both groups
To me it means an "aionios" judgment, one pertaining to an age called "The Day of the Lord" in which the "few chosen" will take the gospel to the world that is in birthing pains like a pregnant woman and who need Christ, and at the end of that aion, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.
hello :hiya: ...."aionian life and aionian life" it's an age..
Matthew 8:11-12 - (NASB) "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness;
in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Revelation 20:6 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT) "Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising.." "This is the First Resurrection."
Revelation 20:5-15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB) "The rest of the dead did" (do) "not come to life until the thousand years were" (are) "completed.."
John 8:20-21,24 - (YLT) - "Jesus spake in the treasury" (to the Pharisees) "teaching in the temple, and no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come; therefore said Jesus again to them, `I go away, and ye will seek me, and in your sin ye shall die; whither I go, ye are not able to come.. ...I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he],
ye shall die in your sins.' (2nd resurrection, rise still imperfect)
Revelation 22:10-16 - (YLT) - "And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;" (always nigh! whether the 'end' collectively as prophesied, or the 'end' personally at death) "he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still: And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last. `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city; and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie. `I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!"
20:7-15 - (YLT) "And when the thousand years be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them; and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet" (not men! but two institutions of men) "and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages" ("for aion and aion" in the original Greek). Resurrection of all unsaved = "And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works; and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death; and if any one was not found" (by then!?) "written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire."
:icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: marie glen on March 17, 2014, 06:33:04 PM
Quote from: Seth on March 14, 2014, 03:01:38 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2014, 08:58:55 AM
What is your best (or the best you've seen) explanation of the following?
(Matt. 25:46)
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".
I actually think this is a judgment for Christians. First thing I look at is this:
Matthew 25
44 Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick
It's interesting to me that they say "Lord," and we know that there are many who say "Lord, Lord" but work iniquity. Christ will say "I never knew you, away from me you who work iniquity." The sheep and goat parable is all about those who worked iniquity and say "Lord."
When I see this I think about the parable of the wedding feast, and an interesting thing you find there.
Judgment for those who are not in the wedding feast (The Bride)
Matthew 22
2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' 5 But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
Judgment for those who do enter the wedding feast (The Bride)
8 Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' 10 Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, BOTH EVIL AND GOOD; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 For many are [f]called, but few are chosen."
Many are called but few chosen. I have often spoke on this forum of what I believe the "outer darkness" is, a spiritual state of sinfulness, a Prodigal Son judgment of being handed over to one's own darkness to be broken down and made thirsty to heed the words of the "Spirit and the Bride" who say: come all you who are athirst and drink the water of life freely.
Those who do not continue to abide in Christ, I believe will be judged as the Prodigal Son experienced, for God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud.
The same word for both groups
To me it means an "aionios" judgment, one pertaining to an age called "The Day of the Lord" in which the "few chosen" will take the gospel to the world that is in birthing pains like a pregnant woman and who need Christ, and at the end of that aion, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.
hello :hiya: ...."aionian life and aionian life" it's an age.. imo, described by these verses:
especially - Matthew 8:11-12 - (NASB) "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Revelation 20:6 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT) "Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising.." "This is the First Resurrection."
Revelation 20:5-15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB) "The rest of the dead did" (do) "not come to life until the thousand years were" (are) "completed.."
John 8:20-21,24 - (YLT) - "Jesus spake in the treasury" (to the Pharisees) "teaching in the temple, and no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come; therefore said Jesus again to them, `I go away, and ye will seek me, and in your sin ye shall die; whither I go, ye are not able to come.. ...I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.' (2nd resurrection, rise still imperfect)
Revelation 22:10-16 - (YLT) - "And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;" (always nigh! whether the 'end' collectively as prophesied, or the 'end' personally at death) "he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still: And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last. `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city; and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie. `I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!"
20:7-15 - (YLT) "And when the thousand years be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them; and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet" (not men! but two institutions of men) "and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages" ("for aion and aion" in the original Greek). Resurrection of all unsaved = "And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works; and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death; and if any one was not found" (by then!?) "written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire."
:icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2014, 08:58:55 AM
What is your best (or the best you've seen) explanation of the following?
(Matt. 25:46)
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".
Hi All,
Just my observation but the word "eternal" means without a beginning or end, so how can the word even apply to us, only God is eternal. There has to be a mistranslation here but you probably will never convince the hell believers of this. If we do recieve punishment it will have a beginning, same thing with immortality.
I don't get to post much any more but do read as much as I can. Miss everyone!!! Love you all :HeartThrob:
CHB
Yes, eternal=age G166 G164 aion
Quote from: marie glen on March 17, 2014, 06:36:28 PM
hello :hiya: ...."aionian life and aionian life" it's an age.. imo, described by these verses
I agree. In fact, I think the best translation (especially considering the meaning of "olam" from which the NT authors were informed) is the "life of the age."
Jabcat's question I think is based on the idea that people have a problem with non-eternal judgment if it means non-eternal life. So my point is that both the Life and and judgment deal with the age, now and to come, but immortality is what causes us to live forever with God.
P.S. -- Matthew 12:32 (NKJV) -"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."
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"..unless you repent (pharisees) you will die in your sins"
"and the rest of the dead rose not until after the thousand years.." .."there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.." .."outer darkness.." Outside the kingdom, aka, Jesus... outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth.. during when? obviously it's after the 2nd resurrection because the pharisees will be there.. and obviously it's before all things are made new..
at the end of judgment day of the 2nd resurrected, DOA, those (still?) not believing will go to the 2nd death, the LOF..
:cloud9: if we did not choose, but were chosen and all done by God "born again by the will of God, not man" why would more extreeme measures be needed to bring the rest to repentance, than we who were chosen to come to Jesus during this life?
If the ancient Spring Holy Days fulfilled, thus prophesied Jesus' first advent, why not the Fall Holy Days prophecy the long second advent? (and three peaks of?) [Trumpets, Day Of Atonement, & Tabernacles "God will now tabernacle with man" rev 21:5]
trumpets, 10 days later was day of atonement, and then 5 days later was tabernacles - if the 10 days represents the 1000 yrs, then what the 5 days?? [hello? why can't anyone see this? "no one at first desires new wine, but the old"/the familiar? seems logical and evident to me - Spring Holy Days fulfilled by 1st advent; Fall Holy Days thus??]
:hiya:
Quote from: Seth on March 19, 2014, 04:28:30 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 17, 2014, 06:36:28 PM
hello :hiya: ...."aionian life and aionian life" it's an age.. imo, described by these verses
I agree. In fact, I think the best translation (especially considering the meaning of "olam" from which the NT authors were informed) is the "life of the age."
Jabcat's question I think is based on the idea that people have a problem with non-eternal judgment if it means non-eternal life. So my point is that both the Life and and judgment deal with the age, now and to come, but immortality is what causes us to live forever with God.
Absolutely!! :iagree: :iagree: if mankind possesses inherent "immortality" why would we "put on immortality" (be clothed with "immortality") at the (1st) resurrection?? :laughing7:
...
and, it was not God/Yahweh/the Father, who said "surely... you won't...die" (to Eve) what God said was "from dust thou art and to dust shalt thou return"
He descended to the lower part of the earth" the dust of the grave.. "was in the heart of the earth" the grave
angels who left their 1st position in chains of darkness now locked into judgment, because imperfect
cannot reverse its course and become again, or make itself perfect.
Jesus via the Spirit preached to those who were long time awaiting while the ark was being prepared.. preached to them via the Spirit
while the ark was being prepared!better to cast an eye or an arm which causes you to commit a crime, into gehenna the city dump where bodies of criminals were thrown and sulphur cast upon them to burn up, consume/quench - than your whole body
Quote from: marie glen on March 20, 2014, 03:31:39 PM
at the end of judgment day of the 2nd resurrected, DOA, those (still?) not believing will go to the 2nd death, the LOF..
I do believe that the LOF speaks of something that exists even today, which is why Jesus said the the Pharisees "How will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?" I actually think that they were already in that judgment and did not realize it. It's sort of how Christ says to the church of Laodicea, "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked"
I believe that in the Day of the Lord, the Gehenna judgment that they are already in, will bring them to their knees like the Prodigal Son, who left his place with his Father and was brought to repentance. I believe the purpose of that experience was to bring him to the end of himself.
Quote:cloud9: if we did not choose, but were chosen and all done by God "born again by the will of God, not man" why would more extreeme measures be needed to bring the rest to repentance, than we who were chosen to come to Jesus during this life?
I don't really see it as an extreme measure. I think it appears that way through the language because fire is one of those things that our primal brain is trained to be afraid of. To me it looks extreme, but it speaks to a spiritual condition that everyone must come out of. The overcomer escaped Gehenna when they began to walk according to the Spirit rather than the flesh. They came out of the LOF into New Jerusalem to drink the water.
I see this as like a leavening which will leaven the whole lump. Everyone who enters New Jerusalem does so through repentance. They die to their old man to live for God. I see this happening with the whole of creation. I don't see "For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" as a forced act, but rather one which comes through a Prodigal Son realization, and repentance and an honest desire for God (which is why the LOF is associated with
thirst).
I don't believe this is so much that God NEEDS to work this way, but that he chooses to do it :Let us MAKE man in our image" That's a process.
So, regarding the fulfillment of the prophecies, I see them like a seed growing into a tree. Christ is the FIRSTFRUIT, but then he fulfills through the New Jerusalem, and then the whole world. I don't see a one-time past fulfillment, but the kingdom as a leaven which is worked through three measures until it leavens the whole lump.
I love this forum. Everyone has such a great head on their shoulders.
:cloud9: Hi CHB, good to see you.
@Ronen.....where do you find the Hebrew pictographs you refer to?
The best way I can describe how God "speaks" to me most of the time, is thru pictures given with instantaneous understanding. I never thought about it before in the context of being sort of a "language". I'm thinking now they created the forms to convey what they received from Him in the same "way".
I know" forms" would be a heck of lot easier than words are to try to "translate" exactly what was "said", sometimes, if only I could condense what He said into one, lol.....just me thinking out loud here.
What I like about the "horizon" part here is because He once spoke something similar to that to me to explain to me what exactly was happening to me in the Spirit at that moment. The term meant, "the place where the earth meets the sky, the horizon". It was referring to the "place" where my spirit "touched" my soul and earthen vessel, sort of "point to point".
A comparison could be made for the "point" at which the spirit returns into full occupation of a body, ie. a resurrection. Blessings....