For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.
Assertion:
UR believers are changing words like eternal, forever, and many others to fit their belief. Show me why you think those words mean something different than what the KJV says.
(thanks CHB for contribution)
This passage of Revelation a friend of mine used today when discussing UR. He says it prooves the UR position to be false. I checked out the "young literal translation" and found that there was no reference to Tree of Life which he had from his bible translation and was using to show his position that if we were taken out of the tree of life we obviously would not be saved.. If you insert "scroll of life" instead of "tree of life"....you do not contradict Gary Amirault's position in his paper on Partiality in which he states that "all will eat from the Tree of Life". Unfortunately, my friend was not very convinced of this and basically said, Scroll of Life, Tree of Life, book of life...they all basically mean the same thing.
Therefore, I am still looking for a more satisfactory answer to refute the assertion posted.
QuoteScroll of Life, Tree of Life, book of life...they all basically mean the same thing.
I believe a scroll and a tree are two completely different things :laughing7:
I've finally gone over and done some looking at another Christian site, where there's an interesting discussion going on about this topic. The discussion has several facets, but one of them has to do with whether names ever added to the Book of Life (especially after being blotted out) are ever added back in, and where's the Biblical accounting of that. Also, when are names put there to begin (or end) with?
I know there are other scriptures that talk about all being reconciled, God being All in All, all summed up in Christ, every tongue confessing Jesus is Lord IN [lit. transl.] the Holy Spirit ("whoever believes/confesses will be saved"); all those Paulinian verses that go beyond what some believe to be the final accounting, i.e., "Revelations" (the Revelation or Unveiling of Jesus Christ) and show the ultimate reconciliation of all of creation. Also, in the Unveiling itself, there's the picture of the gates of the city being open day and night, never locked, as the kings (us, believers) bring our treasures (new believers) into it, the leaves of the Tree of Life healing the nations, no more death, pain, tears - which precludes an eternal torment. However, sometimes we don't know to look other places in the Word besides the Unveiling to see the final outcome of God's creation, believing the orthodox order of books to be a linear time-line of "end-time" events, so there can be difficulty for us/me getting past some mainstream-accepted "details". So, does anyone have more insight specifically into the Book of Life? When names are added, what does blotted out mean, and then what happens/what are the possibilities - specifically besides all the other ultimate reconciliation scriptures that exist? Or is this topic the way it is with all of scripture, in that it must be taken as a whole and reconciled as a whole - the scriptures regarding the Book of Life being taken in context with all the other UR final destination scrips - all fitting together in the Master('s) Plan?
I think this boils down to timing of the verses. Is this the end? If not why? Just because you are at first excluded...to be salted...doesn't mean you can't be eventually reconciled. I do wonder, why is it that mainstream Christian thinking believes Revelations to be the end? Do they have significant reason for believing so?
Agreed on the first part.
On the last line - I spent my entire life in mainstream (although I'm not sure you could consider the little country churches we went to "mainstream" :mblush: - but that's another story). Anyway, it's the last book of most Bibles, and everyone says it's "the end" of the Bible, so it must be, right? Truthfully, the understanding that significant parts of Paul's revelations goes beyond the book of Revelation is a fairly new "revelation" for me - and a really cool one at that! So, really, other than tradition, I probably can't answer your question, Shawn. Maybe there's a formally sanctioned, official church answer someone can give us.
1His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
3Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.
4I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
5And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.
6The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
7As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.
--Psa 87
The LORD will write in the register of the peoples: "This one was born in Zion." Selah
--Psa 87:6
This might be describing the book of life, as those who are born [again] in Zion are written up in a register by the Lord himself. [A recording of births?] This is like a census of the new Jerusalem. :mshock:
Again the idea of citizenship.
20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
--Phil 3
19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
--Eph 2
fellow citizens with the saints! :mshock:
8By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
--Heb 11
22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
--Heb 12
"enrolled" [in heaven]
G583
ἀπογράφω
apographō
ap-og-raf'-o
From G575 and G1125; to write off (a copy or list), that is, enrol: - tax, write.
enrolled in heaven--again it is like a census. The Book of Life is a census?
Hi all
The option I'm considering is that the book of life is a running record, an 'up to the date register' of those who are 'spiritually alive' at any given moment in time.
We know from scripture that God amends the book by blotting names out, I see no reason why He does not write names in when they become alive in Christ.
Quote from: pilgrim1 on February 05, 2011, 05:29:38 PM
Hi all
The option I'm considering is that the book of life is a running record, an 'up to the date register' of those who are 'spiritually alive' at any given moment in time.
We know from scripture that God amends the book by blotting names out, I see no reason why He does not write names in when they become alive in Christ.
I was thinking that, too. That it's a real time census of the citizens of [heaven, Zion, the New Jerusalem].
We know that Abraham was on this list but Paul talks about how the Jews are taken off the list until the fulfillment of the Gentiles--blinded by God--and then they will be added in again because of the election of the fathers.
I'm wondering if this is why David got in so much trouble for doing the census because only God can take the census for Zion [only God knows our hearts]. I've always wondered about that.
10 But when it was all done, David was overwhelmed with guilt because he had counted the people, replacing trust with statistics. And David prayed to God, "I have sinned badly in what I have just done. But now God forgive my guilt—I've been really stupid."
--2 Sam 24
Quote from: jabcat on February 05, 2011, 09:04:30 AM
I've finally gone over and done some looking at another Christian site, where there's an interesting discussion going on about this topic. The discussion has several facets, but one of them has to do with whether names ever added to the Book of Life (especially after being blotted out) are ever added back in, and where's the Biblical accounting of that. Also, when are names put there to begin (or end) with?
Is there proof people can be blotted out and written in again?
Jesus forgave the Romans. Romans did about everything the Bible forbids. But they were forgiven. When forgiven you are in the book of life.
If the Romans were in the book of life even before Jesus forgave them, then it must be impossible to be not be in the book of life.
If the Romans were not in the book of life, Jesus wrote their names in that when He forgave them. Jesus
forced salvation on the Romans. The Romans were in no way searching the God of the Bible.
So either it's impossible to get blotted out (verses say it's possible) or a blotted out person can be written in again.
23 If the people of Israel do not continue in their unbelief, they will again be joined to the tree. God is able to join them to the tree again.
24 After all, weren't you cut from a wild olive tree? Weren't you joined to an olive tree that was taken care of? And wasn't that the opposite of how things should be done? How much more easily will the natural branches be joined to their own olive tree!
25Brothers and sisters, here is a mystery I want you to understand. It will keep you from being proud. Part of Israel has refused to obey God. That will continue until the full number of non-Jews has entered God's kingdom. 26 And so all Israel will be saved.
--Rom 11
"Israel"
H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.
And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; Romans 11:26
A few points here to consider:
1. Maybe its helpful to realize what the book of life is used for: it determines who is thrown into the lake or fire. Of course we who believe in UR understand that many are thrown into the lake of fire, and it is ultimately for their own good. So even if people are blotted out it does not mean they are not saved. It just means they go through the lake of fire.
2. Saul/Paul had two names. He was Saul the persecutor who was converted into Paul the apostle. Certainly Saul was not written in the book of life, but we can guess that Paul was. Yet it was the same person - just old nature vs. new nature. Anyone converted is given a new name - it is that name that is written in the book of life perhaps, not the old name?
3. What is the book of life? Some translations call it the the book of life of the lamb. I read somewhere that a better translation is the book of the life of the lamb - ie. the book of life is symbolically Christ. It is a book of Christ's life. Those not in the book of life are not in Christ - they go into the lake of fire. We know that. Yet we know all will be made alive in Christ, each in their own order - Christ came to save sinners - the lost - all people - the world. Each in their own order is important to remember here.
so again lego, this seems where some of Paul's descriptions of ultimate reconciliation goes beyond and/or addresses some different things than ("Revelations") The Unveiling of Jesus Christ. :thumbsup:
Quote from: legoman on February 06, 2011, 03:02:37 AM
A few points here to consider:
1. Maybe its helpful to realize what the book of life is used for: it determines who is thrown into the lake or fire. Of course we who believe in UR understand that many are thrown into the lake of fire, and it is ultimately for their own good.
That's stated in the Greek.
Quote2. Saul/Paul had two names. He was Saul the persecutor who was converted into Paul the apostle. Certainly Saul was not written in the book of life, but we can guess that Paul was. Yet it was the same person - just old nature vs. new nature. Anyone converted is given a new name - it is that name that is written in the book of life perhaps, not the old name?
Many people changed name in the OT. Not always a real conversion but always when a new phase in Fathers plan started.
Quote3. What is the book of life? Some translations call it the the book of life of the lamb. I read somewhere that a better translation is the book of the life of the lamb - ie. the book of life is symbolically Christ. It is a book of Christ's life. Those not in the book of life are not in Christ - they go into the lake of fire. We know that. Yet we know all will be made alive in Christ, each in their own order - Christ came to save sinners - the lost - all people - the world. Each in their own order is important to remember here.
I wrote something similar in my previous post but decided to delete it because whatever the exact translation it doesn't really matter for what will happen. People are cast in LoF because they are not written in book/Jesus. The effect/amount is exactly the same.
Quote from: jabcat on February 06, 2011, 07:30:41 AM
so again lego, this seems where some of Paul's descriptions of ultimate reconciliation goes beyond and/or addresses some different things than ("Revelations") The Unveiling of Jesus Christ. :thumbsup:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/big_blocker_me_9293.msg116421.html#msg116421
Jesus ushers in the kingdom--the new covenant.
The Jews are cut off. They are thrown out of the kingdom into the outer darkness of the abyss.
They are cut down and cast into the fire.
They are replaced by the Gentiles until the fulfillment of the Gentiles.
Their names are taken out of the book of life [the register of names in the kingdom] but for the sake of their fathers, the elect, they will be added [grafted] back in at some time in the future.
This is announced by John the Baptist.
11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
--Mat 8
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
--Mat 3
Here we see those not in the kingdom are 1)cut off and thrown into the outer darkness, and 2)cut down and thrown into the fire. This is most certainly 'destruction.'
This is referring only to the Jews. But Paul tells us all Israel will be saved.
In Rev 20 do we see the same thing happening to the Gentiles who have not been added to the book of life, grafted into the kingdom?
We know that only the elect among the Gentiles will be saved in this age, as only the elect among the Jews was saved in the last. But, that's not the end of the story.
Names can be added and subtracted from the book of life and added back in.
Deuteronomy 4:4
But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day.
Jabcat
QuoteSo, does anyone have more insight specifically into the Book of Life? When names are added, what does blotted out mean
I created the thread, because I had never heard or read on study on it. The first thing I thought was good was to gather all the verses that mention the Book of Life. Then rather than trying to fit in any theology, doctrine or assumptions I tried to make a list of that which can be know from the verses alone.
Then I said OK, now that I have the verses, and the point blank declarations of the Word, what are some possible implications that work in line with what the Word says?
For example, the Word ONLY shows addition to the Book of Life BEFORE the foundation of the world. It only speaks of writing in the past.
After the foundation, ONLY subtraction is used.
Some may say "But He has to add in." The problem with that is that the Bible makes no mention of that.
Some think it's a record of who's saved. Personally, I don't think so. There are serious problems with that idea. I'm not going to add too much. I'll post how I believe the Book of Life does work in the original thread, and why a record of salvation does not really work. If it's NOT a record of who's saved, then "grafted back in" is not synonymous with 'written back in." It would actually be synonymous with "not blotted." Again, it's only subtraction, never addition.
Well, it is not my intention to stir too much up, but since I created that thread, I thought I should comment, at least once.
Quote from: HansCSome think it's a record of who's saved. Personally, I don't think so.
Who do you think it is a record of?
Quoteit is not my intention to stir too much up...
Stir away, Hans. Isn't that what the angel did at Bethesda?
Do you think a person can be in the kingdom of heaven and NOT be in the book of life?
That is, are the same people in both?
Quote from: Hansc on February 06, 2011, 10:56:28 AMI created the thread, because I had never heard or read on study on it. The first thing I thought was good was to gather all the verses that mention the Book of Life. Then rather than trying to fit in any theology, doctrine or assumptions I tried to make a list of that which can be know from the verses alone.
That's a good starting point. But also a very difficult one. It's hard to truely read without bias. And because the meaning of a verse can be in the tiny details a perfect translation is needed. And chosing a translation is often biased too../
QuoteFor example, the Word ONLY shows addition to the Book of Life BEFORE the foundation of the world. It only speaks of writing in the past.
YLTRev 138 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
Do you mean the above verse? That's not about the book but about Jesus.
QuoteAfter the foundation, ONLY subtraction is used.
Does that means the faMous born again doesn't exist?
YLTJohn 33 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
QuoteSome may say "But He has to add in." The problem with that is that the Bible makes no mention of that.
I think the verse shown above does.
QuoteIf it's NOT a record of who's saved, then "grafted back in" is not synonymous with 'written back in."
Grafted means to (re)unite. So things can only be reunited if they where seperated before. BTW religion means reunite.
QuoteIt would actually be synonymous with "not blotted." Again, it's only subtraction, never addition.
Blotted out is cut off.
Quote from: Hansc on February 06, 2011, 10:56:28 AM
Jabcat
QuoteSo, does anyone have more insight specifically into the Book of Life? When names are added, what does blotted out mean
I created the thread, because I had never heard or read on study on it.
Well, it is not my intention to stir too much up, but since I created that thread, I thought I should comment, at least once.
If "stir" means explore, discuss, reason together, then that's what we're here for. Thanks for the reply. :bigGrin:
Molly asked:
QuoteWho do you think it is a record of?
Molly, as you know, I am writing a lot into this thread on 'another site.' I go into a little greater detail into how I think this must work there and probably will not go into that much here, due to primarily time constraints. I also have no intention to save time and 'copy/paste from there to here. I think jabcat has even provided the link. But I do think you raise some good points and want to comment on them just a bit.
As you know, the Bible NEVER shows any writing into the Book of Life after the foundation. It only shows subtraction. Why?
You brought up the point about the Jews being grafted or added back into the tree of God as an example of being added back in. One the surface this would seem to make sense, but it actually does not work. It would work that way IF the Book of Life was merely a record of all that are currently saved. Then there would have to be additions, but there are not.
In a way, it is a book that functions as a master list of all that are to come into the world. The point is since ALL start off in the Book of Life because ALL already start off in the Book, they do not need to be added since they are already there.
Now suppose, that the hour is come for the veil to be lifted from the Jews. Let's just take one Jewish person, if God added him into the tree of the saved, he would Not have to add him to the Book of Life. God would simply have to NOT blot him out, in order to add him in.
In other words, you don't have to add them in, you just have to NOT SUBTRACT them out.
The Book is more of a Book of the Called, and not a Book of just the chosen. That's why there is a winnowing or blotting or deleting process, but not an adding process.
Quote from: HansThe Book is more of a Book of the Called, and not a Book of just the chosen. That's why there is a winnowing or blotting or deleting process, but not an adding process.
Ok. So let's say this is true. It starts out as a book of the called but gets smaller as people are deleted, and we end up with only the chosen. This book would therefore not contain everyone who ever lived because not everyone is called? [eg those of other faiths, or atheists, or those ignorant of Christ].
This would correspond to the verse that says, many are called but few are chosen? So we would start out with many in the book of life and end up with few?
And would those few be described here:
9After this I beheld, and, lo,
a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
--Rev 7
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in
white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
So we see a great multitude that no man could number clothed in the white raiment of the overcomer. All these started in the book of life from the foundation of the world and were never blotted out?
Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder,
whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
This says that 1)some were written into the book of life from the foundation of the world and 2) all of these will not be deceived by the beast [wonder at him]. We know from another passage that these that are not deceived are elect because it is not possible to deceive the elect.
Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that,
if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
So the beast is good at deceiving but not so good he will deceive the elect. Yet, we also see that the elect are predestined for this position--that would mean they could not be written into a book and then blotted out because predestination would forbid it--
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
--Rom 8
So now we have Rom 8 telling us that these predestinated ones are the called according to his purpose, and he will be faithful to finish a work he started, meaning to glorify them. This group, then, is not getting blotted out of any book forever because Jesus is making sure not to lose a one. They are predestinated therefore they will be glorified. The elect cannot be deceived and they cannot be blotted out of any book. They are in fact among the judges at the great white throne as implied by this verse--
1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?Ok, so maybe those written into the book from the foundation of the world are just the elect? And, maybe others will be added as they are introduced to Christ and become saved?
But you say none are ever added. That means you are ignoring those who are born into the kingdom, those posts we listed earlier--
The LORD will write in the register of the peoples: "This one was born in Zion." Selah--Psa 87:6
So God is entering the names of those born in the holy city--the new Jerusalem. It is a census of the citizens of heaven. Is there any reason why this would not be the book of life? If I am a born again citizen of God's holy city, would I, of all people, have a right to the life given by Christ?
3Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.
5And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.
--Psa 87
Hans,
Jesus has a discussion with the Pharisee, Nicodemus where he tells Nicodemus that a man must be born again to see the kingdom of God. That means you cannot enter the kingdom [the holy city of God] unless you are born again.
Nicodemus is struggling with this concept but Jesus tells him you should know this since you are a teacher.
10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
--John 3
Jesus is chiding the Pharisee here--how could you be a master, a rabbi, and not know this?
That means that this concept of being born from above [born again] is in the Old Testament writings.
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
--Deu 30:6
Does the writer of this Psalm understand what it means to be a spirit filled man, born from above?:
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit. Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will return to you. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, O God of my salvation, and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness. O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. Do good to Zion in your good pleasure; build up the walls of Jerusalem; then will you delight in right sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings; then bulls will be offered on your altar.
--Psa 51:10-19
So if people were entering the kingdom in the Old Testament by being born again, and Jesus has opened up the kingdom to all in the New Testament, wouldn't it stand to reason that those who enter the kingdom as born again are written into the book of life? And that this number is getting bigger not smaller?
Molly
QuoteThis book would therefore not contain everyone who ever lived because not everyone is called? [eg those of other faiths, or atheists, or those ignorant of Christ].
I think it would contain ALL, since it is the will of God for ALL to be saved. If it were the will of God for only some to be saved then only some would be in the Book. In short, I think from the foundation of the world everybody who was ever to be born was in the Book.
Being in the Book gives Christ the right to offer you salvation.
Being in the Book, gives a person the right and privilege to respond to Christ's offer.
If a person accepts Christ's offer, you remain in the Book.
If a person rejects Christ's offer, they eventually are deleted.
QuoteSo we would start out with many in the book of life and end up with few?
It is a winnowing process, it is a separation of the wheat from the chaff. His fan is constantly in His hand and is blowing away the chaff, so in that way, the pile is getting smaller. Think of the Book of Life as the winnowing floor. The chaff that flies away id essentially the 'blotting' process, using a different metaphor.
QuoteSo we see a great multitude that no man could number clothed in the white raiment of the overcomer. All these started in the book of life from the foundation of the world and were never blotted out?
Seems to me, that is how it would have to work.
QuoteThis says that 1)some were written into the book of life from the foundation of the world and all of these will not be deceived by the beast [wonder at him].
It doesn't actually say some, but I can see how a person could come to that conclusion. I can see how a person could think that "not written" means 'never written, but look at this passage.
Psalm 69:28]They are blotted out of the Book of Life, And with the righteous are NOT written.Read this passage closely. Note how it says they were NOT WRITTEN in the Book. Note that those NOT WRITTEN were however "BLOTTED OUT"
This means that at some point they WERE in the Book but got blotted out.
To be found NOT WRITTEN in the Book, does NOT mean a person was never there. Based upon this passage it means they were there and got blotted out.
Keeping that in mind, that NOT WRITTEN means 'once written but now blotted.
Quote]Ok, so maybe those written into the book from the foundation of the world are just the elect? [/color]
The problem with this is, that you end up blotting out a bunch of the elect, when the blotting happens, if so then how are they really elect?
Quote]But you say none are ever added. That means you are ignoring those who are born into the kingdom,
Not really, they are in the Book. When they are born in the Kingdom, the essentially remain in the book and by their response avoid the blotter.
Quote]So God is entering the names of those born in the holy city--the new Jerusalem.
By receiving Christ and becoming born again a person avoids the blotter and remains in the Book.
By rejecting Christ, a person will eventually end up blotted.
He does not have add your name. He just has to NOT subtract it. The wheat remains, the chaff leaves. He does not have to add wheat to the pile, just blow away the chaff.
Quote]If I am a born again citizen of God's holy city, would I, of all people, have a right to the life given by Christ?]
If you are in the book of Life (and you are) then you have a God given right to receive Christ.
Because you are in the Book of Life, Jesus has the right to offer you salvation.
Because you are in the Book of Life, you have the right to respond to His offer.
If you receive Christ's offer, then you avoid the blotter.
If a person rejects Christ's offer, they will in time be blotted.
If a person has already responded to Christ's offer, then she already, in a measure, has the Life of Christ in her.
Quoteyou cannot enter the kingdom [the holy city of God] unless you are born again
That's the way I see it too.
Quoteif people were entering the kingdom in the Old Testament by being born again,
The new birth was not available under the Old Covenant, it was not available until Christ rose from the dead and inaugurated the New Covenant.
]
Quotewouldn't it stand to reason that those who enter the kingdom as born again are written into the book of life?
They were in the Book of Life prior to conception, or even the foundation of the world. When they respond to Christ's offer, they avoid being eventually blotted out. It's not that they are added in, it's just that they are NOT subtracted out. You are NOT in because you were added in, you are in because you were NOT subtracted out.
]
QuoteAnd that this number is getting bigger not smaller?
The entire Book is getting smaller, via deletions. Since no names are being added, and only deletions are happening, the Book must be getting smaller.
However, since more people are responding to their right to receive Christ, that number is actually getting larger.
Since the number of them who are to be deleted is getting smaller, and those who have secured their right to avoid deletion by receiving Christ is getting larger, the day will come, when the last call goes forth. There is a day, when all the chaff is gone and only wheat is left and He whom holds the fan picks up the final roll and calls the feast.
It works more like a feast and a mass call to come to the feast, everybody is invited and their name is placed on a table and mat. Only those who show get to eat, the rest although on the invite list, get blotted because they did not take up the offer. It's only subtraction, not addition.
Hans
[/b][/color]
OK. Let's try again, Hans, because you have decided that all are written in the book of life from the foundation [conception] of the world, and I must admit that argument makes a lot of sense.
But you are so far basing that argument on one verse [I think]. So let's look again at this verse--
8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
--Rev 17:8 [NIV]
Ok this verse is saying that whoever is on earth whose name was not written into the book of life from the creation of the world wlll marvel [be deceived by] the beast.
Isn't that what it is saying? Now if everyone is written into the book of life from the foundation of the world, no one will be deceived by the beast. And we know that's not the case.
Correct?
So we are missing something here and have to go back to the drawing board.
Molly
Think of a phone book. Let's say there are 1,000 people in this book. You are to go through and call every one and offer them a free flower bouquet. Everyone in the small town is in the phone Book, none are left out. As you work your way through the Book, everyone that accepts your free offer you put a gold sticky star by their name. Everyone who refuses your offer or wont answer the phone you blot out. There is no addition in your process, only subtraction.
On one hand, using this process, the phone book is getting smaller and smaller each day as you go through it. But on the other hand, the group in the Book with the Gold star is getting bigger and bigger. In time, the only people left will be those with Gold sticky stars. All the others got blotted out of the Book. When you finally give out the last star, and blot out the last name, you call all the star people. You will say, WOW, many were called, but few got the star.
You then throw a big gold star party and call it The Marriage Feast of the Lamb.
Quote from: HansThe new birth was not available under the Old Covenant, it was not available until Christ rose from the dead and inaugurated the New Covenant.
Hans, is it possible to know Jesus without being born from above? Or to have the Holy Spirit? How then could King David talk about having the Holy Spirit? Do you think King David didn't know Jesus?
Can you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?
35 And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, "How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself,
in the Holy Spirit, declared,
"'The Lord said to my Lord,Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet.'
37David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?" And the great throng heard him gladly.
--Mark 12
Quote from: Molly on February 07, 2011, 11:37:21 AM
OK. Let's try again, Hans, because you have decided that all are written in the book of life from the foundation [conception] of the world, and I must admit that argument makes a lot of sense.
But you are so far basing that argument on one verse [I think]. So let's look again at this verse--
8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
--Rev 17:8 [NIV]
Ok this verse is saying that whoever is on earth whose name was not written into the book of life from the creation of the world wlll marvel [be deceived by] the beast.
Isn't that what it is saying? Now if everyone is written into the book of life from the foundation of the world, no one will be deceived by the beast. And we know that's not the case.
Correct?
So we are missing something here and have to go back to the drawing board.
Concerning the idea that we were placed into the Book of Life before conception, consider:
Psalm 139:16
You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your Book. Every moment was laid out BEFORE a single day had passed NLT.
Psalm 139:16
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your Book WERE ALL written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.ASV
Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being BBE[/color]
QuoteOk this verse is saying that whoever is on earth whose name was not written into the book of life from the creation of the world wlll marvel [be deceived by] the beast.
Isn't that what it is saying? Now if everyone is written into the book of life from the foundation of the world, no one will be deceived by the beast. And we know that's not the case.
Correct?
I think you are right. I would think these people, started off in the Book of Life, prior to conception, or even the foundation of the world. Then are some time after coming into the world, they reject Christ, which moves them into the "blotted not written" category, and they end up getting fooled by the beast. Essentially these people, have rejected Christ, been blotted, and then fooled by the beast.
Quote from: Molly on February 07, 2011, 11:37:21 AM
OK. Let's try again, Hans, because you have decided that all are written in the book of life from the foundation [conception] of the world, and I must admit that argument makes a lot of sense.
But you are so far basing that argument on one verse [I think]. So let's look again at this verse--
8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
--Rev 17:8 [NIV]
Ok this verse is saying that whoever is on earth whose name was not written into the book of life from the creation of the world wlll marvel [be deceived by] the beast.
Isn't that what it is saying? Now if everyone is written into the book of life from the foundation of the world, no one will be deceived by the beast. And we know that's not the case.
Correct?
So we are missing something here and have to go back to the drawing board.
Hans, I'm not saying I don't like your phone book analogy. I do.
But, for now, could you please reread the post I am quoting here and answer the question I posed?
Look at Rev 17:8 and tell me in your own words what it is saying.
Quote from: HansI think you are right. I would think these people, started off in the Book of Life, prior to conception, or even the foundation of the world. Then are some time after coming into the world, they reject Christ, which moves them into the "blotted not written" category, and they end up getting fooled by the beast. Essentially these people, have rejected Christ, been blotted, and then fooled by the beast.
But, it's not saying that, is it? Isn't it saying that those who are written into the book from the foundation of the world
will not marvel at the beast?
So if your phone book from the foundation of the world are all those who will not marvel at the beast, it can't be everyone that ever lived, can it ? Or we are missing something.
Molly
QuoteHans, is it possible to know Jesus without being born from above? Or to have the Holy Spirit? How then could King David talk about having the Holy Spirit? Do you think King David didn't know Jesus? Can you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?
I think a person must be born again, without which a person may know a lot of stuff about God, but not actually know God. I think all born again people have the Holy Spirit. To get into the rest of your question I would have to really get into the distinction between the Old and New Covenant, and I would but I don't really have much time and it can be a big topic.
QuoteCan you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?
Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them, they are the Temple of God. The teachers of the Law were not the Temple of God, they had to go to Jerusalem to go to the Temple.
Ok, Hans, we are digressing a little, but that's ok.
Do you think there were no spirit filled born again elect in the Old Testament? What about Moses? Moses met with God on the mountain. What about Joshua? What about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Doesn't Jesus tell us the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living? Doesn't he tell us that many will come into the kingdom and sit down with the OT saints at the same table?
Doesn't Paul tell us there were elect in the Old Testament?
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
--Rom 11
Molly, What it says is
QuoteThe inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished
Is a reverse from your last post, where you said:
QuoteIsn't it saying that those who are written into the book from the foundation of the world will not marvel at the beast?
So from the Bible we have "not in the Book, WILL marvel"
and from your post.
"in the Book, will NOT marvel"
For me, what is happening here is that those who have rejected Christ and thereby have gotten themselves blotted out of the Book will be fooled by the beast.
Those who have received Christ and remain in the Book will know what is going on and not be fooled.
Quote from: Molly on February 07, 2011, 12:20:30 PM
Ok, Hans, we are digressing a little, but that's ok.
Do you think there were no spirit filled born again elect in the Old Testament? What about Moses? Moses met with God on the mountain. What about Joshua? What about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Doesn't Jesus tell us the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living? Doesn't he tell us that many will come into the kingdom and sit down with the OT saints at the same table?
Doesn't Paul tell us there were elect in the Old Testament?
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
--Rom 11
Molly, it would take a pretty detailed look into the distinction between the Old and New Covenant, and as much as I would enjoy that, I am really pressed for time. I just don't think I can get that detailed into a Bible study. But let me just say that Of course, the OT saints Moses and co. are going to be there too. It's a really detailed thing to go through what makes each Covenant distinct, but how in the end Christ will be all in all.
Ok. Let's look at it in a number of different translations. And, ask again--what is it saying? Because this is important. It doesn't say anything about blotting out here. It says these people's names were written in the book at/from/before the foundation of the world. These are the people who will not be deceived. One translation even calls them the people not of this world. Remember Jesus saying, my kingdom is not of this world [kosmos]. [If it were] my servants would fight...So these people written in the book of life at the foundation of the world are not of this world [kosmos]. They are the servants of Christ.
New International Version (©1984)
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
New Living Translation (©2007)
The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.
English Standard Version (©2001)
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.
International Standard Version (©2008)
The beast that you saw existed once, but is no longer, and is going to crawl out of the bottomless pit and then proceed to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"You saw the beast which once was, is no longer, and will come from the bottomless pit and go to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life when the world was created, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.
King James Bible
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
American King James Version
The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
American Standard Version
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.
Bible in Basic English
The beast which you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the great deep, and to go into destruction. And those who are on the earth, whose names have not been put in the book of life from the first, will be full of wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and still will be.
Douay-Rheims Bible
The beast, which thou sawest, was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit, and go into destruction: and the inhabitants on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) shall wonder, seeing the beast that was, and is not.
Darby Bible Translation
The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction: and they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life, shall wonder, seeing the beast, that it was, and is not, and shall be present.
English Revised Version
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.
Webster's Bible Translation
The beast that thou sawest, was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Weymouth New Testament
"The Wild Beast which you have seen was, and is not, and yet is destined to re-ascend, before long, out of the bottomless pit and go his way into perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth will be filled with amazement--all whose names are not in the Book of Life, having been recorded there ever since the creation of the world--when they see the Wild Beast: because he was, and is not, and yet is to come.
World English Bible
The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.
Young's Literal Translation
'The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.
Hans, let me ask you this--Do you think Heb 11 talking about the OT saints is talking about the same people of the faith who were written in the book of life from/at/before the foundation of the world?
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
--Heb 11
John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [the beast], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
--Rev 13:8
.
"foundation"
G2602
καταβολή
katabolē
kat-ab-ol-ay'
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.
G2598
καταβάλλω
kataballō
kat-ab-al'-lo
From G2596 and G906; to throw down: - cast down, lay.
the lamb slain from the casting down of the kosmos [world].
What others say: Commentaries:
Kosmos, Summary: In the sense of the present world-system, the ethically bad sense of the word, refers to the "order," "arrangement," under which Satan has organized the world of unbelieving mankind upon his cosmic principle of force, greed, selfishness, ambition, and pleasure. Mt 4:8,9 Jn 12:31 14:30 18:36 Eph 2:2 6:12 1Jn 2:15-17. This world-system is imposing and powerful with armies and fleets; is often outwardly religious, scientific, cultured, and elegant; but, seething with national and commercial rivalries and ambitions, is upheld in any real crisis only by armed force, and is dominated by Satanic principles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
13:1-10 The apostle, standing on the shore, saw a savage beast rise out of the sea; a tyrannical, idolatrous, persecuting power, springing up out of the troubles which took place. It was a frightful monster! It appears to mean that worldly, oppressing dominion, which for many ages, even from the times of the Babylonish captivity, had been hostile to the church. The first beast then began to oppress and persecute the righteous for righteousness' sake, but they suffered most under the fourth beast of Daniel, (the Roman empire,) which has afflicted the saints with many cruel persecutions. The source of its power was the dragon. It was set up by the devil, and supported by him. The wounding the head may be the abolishing pagan idolatry; and the healing of the wound, introducing popish idolatry, the same in substance, only in a new dress, but which as effectually answers the devil's design. The world admired its power, policy and success. They paid honour and subjection to the devil and his instruments. It exercised infernal power and policy, requiring men to render that honour to creatures which belongs to God alone. Yet the devil's power and success are limited. Christ has a chosen remnant, redeemed by his blood, recorded in his book, sealed by his Spirit; and though the devil and antichrist may overcome the body, and take away the natural life, they cannot conquer the soul, nor prevail with true believers to forsake their Saviour, and join his enemies. Perseverance in the faith of the gospel and true worship of God, in this great hour of trial and temptation, which would deceive all but the elect, is the character of those registered in the book of life. This powerful motive and encouragement to constancy, is the great design of the whole Revelation.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; by which book is meant God's predestination of men to eternal life, or his decree of election; why this is called the "book of life"; see Gill on Revelation 3:5; and their "names being written therein from the foundation of the world", Revelation 17:8, for such a construction the words will bear, denotes that election is eternal, and is not an act of time, nor dependent upon anything done in time; and that it is of particular persons, and not of bodies of men, of nations and churches, and still less of propositions, or of persons so and so qualified, or under such conditions and circumstances; and that it is perfectly well known to God, and is sure and certain in its effects, and is unchangeable and irrevocable; for what is written in it, is written, and will always stand, not upon the foot of works, but of the sovereign grace of God; and this is called the Lamb's book; that is, Christ, who is compared to a Lamb for its harmlessness, meekness, and patience, and was typified by the lambs in the legal sacrifices; and this book is called his, because he was present at the making of it, and was concerned in putting down the names in it, John 13:18, and he himself stands first in it as the elect of God, and the head of all the elect, who, as members, were chosen in him: the act of election was made in him, and stands sure in him; and he is the author and giver of that life, which men are chosen unto both here and hereafter: and he may be said to be "slain from the foundation of the world"; in the decree and purpose of God, by which he was set forth, or foreappointed to be the propitiation for sin, and was foreordained, before the foundation of the world, to redeem his people by his blood, and in the promise of God immediately after the fall of man, that the seed of the woman should have his heel bruised, and he himself should bruise the serpent's head, which made it as sure as if it was then done; and in the sacrifices, which were immediately upon this offered up, and were types of the death and sacrifice of Christ; and in the faith of the saints, which brings distant things near, and considers them as if present; and also in his members, in Abel, and others, in whom he suffered, as he still does in his people; to which may be added, that such is the efficacy of the bloodshed and death of Christ, that it reached to all the saints from the beginning of the world, for the justification of their persons, the atonement of their sins, and cleansing from them; for the remission of sins, that are past, and for the redemption of transgressions under the first testament; for Old Testament saints from the beginning are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, as New Testament ones are. Something like this the Jews say (e) of the Messiah upon Genesis 49:11,
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Quote from: Hansc on February 07, 2011, 12:09:16 PM
Molly
QuoteHans, is it possible to know Jesus without being born from above? Or to have the Holy Spirit? How then could King David talk about having the Holy Spirit? Do you think King David didn't know Jesus? Can you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?
I think a person must be born again, without which a person may know a lot of stuff about God, but not actually know God. I think all born again people have the Holy Spirit. To get into the rest of your question I would have to really get into the distinction between the Old and New Covenant, and I would but I don't really have much time and it can be a big topic.
QuoteCan you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?
Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them, they are the Temple of God. The teachers of the Law were not the Temple of God, they had to go to Jerusalem to go to the Temple.
I was discussing this the other day with some others here about, the spirit. I agree with you I think that there is a difference between old con saints vs new con saints. I think the differecne posssibly could be that the holy spirit is
upon old conv saints, but within the new
conv saints. I have read many old conv scriptures where the spirit comes upon them and then they prophecy. It seems to be that in the old convenant the spirit would come and then go. In the wilderness God was with them, but outside of them, in the cloud by night and in the ark of the covenant, but now we are the ark and God himself (At least his Spirit, although some Christians do think they are God :winkgrin:) dwells withinus.
Quote from: HansHe does not have add your name. He just has to NOT subtract it.
QuoteYou are NOT in because you were added in, you are in because you were NOT subtracted out.
Hi Hans,
Not to be a pest about this, but you maintain that names are never added to the book of life, only deleted.
Yet, here we have a record of God writing the names of those born in Zion, the holy city of God, in a register. That means he is adding names that were not formerly there. Otherwise, why would he have to write the names in? Could you address this?
The LORD will write in the register of the peoples: "This one was born in Zion." Selah--Psa 87:6
So Molly, you're suggesting it's primarily about the elect - which is the ecclesia, only that what, perhaps 5-10% of humanity that's ever lived? It reminds me of part of my signature - the ecclesia are predestined - the rest are destined. Again, Paul's writings show the rest being added in, each in their own turn, when God does become All in ALL. :thumbsup:
The elect are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Are these the ones written in the book of Life from the foundation of the world? It seems like they are to me.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:3-6).
:bigGrin: Before I read your post, I went and found this;
New Living Translation (©2007)
For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10
The order:
1) The first-fruits
2) Christ's at His coming
3) The rest (all summed up in Christ, God All in All)
Quote from: thinktank on February 07, 2011, 05:16:14 PM
Quote from: Hansc on February 07, 2011, 12:09:16 PM
Molly
QuoteHans, is it possible to know Jesus without being born from above? Or to have the Holy Spirit? How then could King David talk about having the Holy Spirit? Do you think King David didn't know Jesus? Can you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?
I think a person must be born again, without which a person may know a lot of stuff about God, but not actually know God. I think all born again people have the Holy Spirit. To get into the rest of your question I would have to really get into the distinction between the Old and New Covenant, and I would but I don't really have much time and it can be a big topic.
QuoteCan you answer this question that stumped the teachers of the Law?
Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them, they are the Temple of God. The teachers of the Law were not the Temple of God, they had to go to Jerusalem to go to the Temple.
I was discussing this the other day with some others here about, the spirit. I agree with you I think that there is a difference between old con saints vs new con saints. I think the differecne posssibly could be that the holy spirit is upon old conv saints, but within the new conv saints. I have read many old conv scriptures where the spirit comes upon them and then they prophecy. It seems to be that in the old convenant the spirit would come and then go. In the wilderness God was with them, but outside of them, in the cloud by night and in the ark of the covenant, but now we are the ark and God himself (At least his Spirit, although some Christians do think they are God :winkgrin:) dwells withinus.
Thinktank. Good Post I think in broad terms what you are saying does work along the line you laid out.
Quote from: Molly on February 07, 2011, 12:49:49 PM
Ok. Let's look at it in a number of different translations. And, ask again--what is it saying? Because this is important. It doesn't say anything about blotting out here. It says these people's names were written in the book at/from/before the foundation of the world. These are the people who will not be deceived. One translation even calls them the people not of this world. Remember Jesus saying, my kingdom is not of this world [kosmos]. [If it were] my servants would fight...So these people written in the book of life at the foundation of the world are not of this world [kosmos]. They are the servants of Christ.
New International Version (©1984)
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
New Living Translation (©2007)
The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.
English Standard Version (©2001)
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.
International Standard Version (©2008)
The beast that you saw existed once, but is no longer, and is going to crawl out of the bottomless pit and then proceed to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"You saw the beast which once was, is no longer, and will come from the bottomless pit and go to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life when the world was created, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again.
King James Bible
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
American King James Version
The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
American Standard Version
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.
Bible in Basic English
The beast which you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the great deep, and to go into destruction. And those who are on the earth, whose names have not been put in the book of life from the first, will be full of wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and still will be.
Douay-Rheims Bible
The beast, which thou sawest, was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit, and go into destruction: and the inhabitants on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) shall wonder, seeing the beast that was, and is not.
Darby Bible Translation
The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction: and they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life, shall wonder, seeing the beast, that it was, and is not, and shall be present.
English Revised Version
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.
Webster's Bible Translation
The beast that thou sawest, was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Weymouth New Testament
"The Wild Beast which you have seen was, and is not, and yet is destined to re-ascend, before long, out of the bottomless pit and go his way into perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth will be filled with amazement--all whose names are not in the Book of Life, having been recorded there ever since the creation of the world--when they see the Wild Beast: because he was, and is not, and yet is to come.
World English Bible
The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.
Young's Literal Translation
'The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.
Quotewhat is it saying? . . . It doesn't say anything about blotting out here.
I posted the Psalm here earlier because to shows that "not written" is another way to say "blotted out" They mean the same thing. So actually the function of "blotting" is mentioned here.
QuoteIt says these people's names were written in the book at/from/before the foundation of the world
Molly, they verses you posted do not say that. While I understand that ALL people start off in the Book of Life. The verses you quoted focus on them in the "blotted, not written" category. Molly, in your comment on the verses you posted you reversed the focus.
QuoteThese are the people who will not be deceived.
Molly, you reversed the focus again. The non-deceived do not appear in this passage you posted. Only the deceived appear here.
The verses you posted do NOT mention those who will NOT be deceived.
The verses you posted ONLY mention those who WILL be deceived.
I think we need to be sure that we focus on exactly what a passage says.
Hans, here is another example that not all are on the call list. Well, they can answer the phone if it rings, but the person on the other end will be speaking jibberish as far as they are concerned. They won't understand a word of it. Is that their fault or the purpose of God?
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
--Mat 13
Jesus specifically says, I chose you, you didn't choose me.
John 15:16 "Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:"
Accordingly, this was decided for us before the world began.
2 Timothy 1:9: (God) "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN."
'Before the world began' is 'pro chronos aionios'--before the aion!
So, think again about who is in this telephone book and why.
Molly
QuoteHans, let me ask you this--Do you think Heb 11 talking about the OT saints is talking about the same people of the faith who were written in the book of life from/at/before the foundation of the world?
Since ALL people start off in the Book of Life. Then yes, the OT saints would have to be included in that number.
QuoteNot to be a pest about this, but you maintain that names are never added to the book of life, only deleted.
Yet, here we have a record of God writing the names of those born in Zion, the holy city of God, in a register. That means he is adding names that were not formerly there. Otherwise, why would he have to write the names in? Could you address this?
The LORD will write in the register of the peoples: "This one was born in Zion." Selah
--Psa 87:6
God's got lots of Books. The register of who was born in Jerusalem, does not have to be the Lamb's Book of Life. We are talking about the Lamb's Book of Life. There are other Books.
Quote from: HansGod's got lots of Books. The register of who was born in Jerusalem, does not have to be the Lamb's Book of Life. We are talking about the Lamb's Book of Life. There are other Books.
I agree the register of those born in Zion does not have to be exactly equivalent to the Lamb's book of life, but wouldn't you agree it at least has to be a subset of it?
Because anyone with citizenship in Zion can enter God's holy city spoken about in Rev 21 and 22. And, Paul tells us that we have citizenship in heaven. It is God who establishes it. And this is written in the book of life. It has to be.
Yes?
Hi Hans - I just want you to know that I'm reading your posts with great interest. I once told someone that it seemed to me that all are born "saved" but as we go through life, some utterly reject God and are not, then, saved. What you are posting is scriptural support for a general belief that was placed on my heart.
Thank you for taking time to post; I had looked up all of the references to the book of life one time before and noted, as you do, that names are blotted out; I had not paid attention at the time that there is no reference to any being added in!
Molly
QuoteHans, here is another example that not all are on the call list. Well, they can answer the phone if it rings, but the person on the other end will be speaking jibberish as far as they are concerned. They won't understand a word of it. Is that their fault or the purpose of God?
Molly I don't think your example shows that. If they were not on the list, then they would have no right to respond to God.
In the world what you are suggesting would work like this:
I go up to someone who can only speak Spanish. I don't know they can only speak Spanish. I give them the Gospel in English. I sound like I am speaking gibberish to them. After wards I conclude that due to the language barrier, they could not understand me. I conclude that because they could not understand me, they are therefore NOT entitled to receive Christ and it is NOT the will of God to save them. I think that would be silly. Yet that is what your example is suggesting.
Because they can't understand my language does not mean that God does not want to save them.
The answer is to learn Spanish, bring a Spanish speaker along, give them a Spanish Bible and so on. God wants to save ALL people and just because they cannot understand your language does not mean that He does NOT want to save them. Just because they don't speak your language does not meant that they are NOT in the Lamb's Book of life.
Quote from: HansBecause they can't understand my language does not mean that God does not want to save them.
That's a great thought! Yet, Jesus tells his disciples he is purposely speaking in English so they cannot understand him. [I speak in parables so they won't understand what I am saying--lest they turn and be healed, he says later in that passage].
So what is Jesus up to?
QuoteGod wants to save ALL people and just because they cannot understand your language does not mean that He does NOT want to save them.
Exactly. And clearly God could speak any language he wants and be as clear or obscure as he wants.
He chooses to be obscure--speaking in English to Spanish speaking peoples per your example.
So--He must have a plan.
Quote from: LS on February 07, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
Hi Hans - I just want you to know that I'm reading your posts with great interest. I once told someone that it seemed to me that all are born "saved" but as we go through life, some utterly reject God and are not, then, saved. What you are posting is scriptural support for a general belief that was placed on my heart.
Thank you for taking time to post; I had looked up all of the references to the book of life one time before and noted, as you do, that names are blotted out; I had not paid attention at the time that there is no reference to any being added in!
Thanks LS for the good feedback. I started this thread on another site, because I had never really heard or read any thing about it. So it's more like an exploratory thread. On the other site lots of people have brought out various Scripture that I had never even connected before on this topic. When I saw the thread here, I thought I would come here and add just a little. Naturally, the presentations here is a little shorter.
Concerning "born saved" I think you are absolutely right. Think about babies that are aborted, or die before they can hardly even think. I think Christ's sacrifice covers them, even though they never really "got saved." If that's the case, then babies really are born saved.
Thanks for the good input.
Molly
QuoteHe chooses to be obscure--speaking in English to Spanish speaking peoples per your example.
Molly, that's not actually my example.
I do not show God intentionally speaking English to a Spanish person to confuse the Spaniard.
I show a person making a mistake by unintentionally speaking to them in a language they do not know.
Anyway, I've got to run.
Ok hans,
well Jesus is doing it intentionally. He is intentionally speaking a language they will not understand. So he must have a good reason for doing this.
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
--Mat 13
Quote from: Hansc on February 07, 2011, 11:27:24 PM
Quote from: LS on February 07, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
Hi Hans - I just want you to know that I'm reading your posts with great interest. I once told someone that it seemed to me that all are born "saved" but as we go through life, some utterly reject God and are not, then, saved. What you are posting is scriptural support for a general belief that was placed on my heart.
Thank you for taking time to post; I had looked up all of the references to the book of life one time before and noted, as you do, that names are blotted out; I had not paid attention at the time that there is no reference to any being added in!
Thanks LS for the good feedback. I started this thread on another site, because I had never really heard or read any thing about it. So it's more like an exploratory thread. On the other site lots of people have brought out various Scripture that I had never even connected before on this topic. When I saw the thread here, I thought I would come here and add just a little. Naturally, the presentations here is a little shorter.
Concerning "born saved" I think you are absolutely right. Think about babies that are aborted, or die before they can hardly even think. I think Christ's sacrifice covers them, even though they never really "got saved." If that's the case, then babies really are born saved.
Thanks for the good input.
Hi LS and HansC. I really can see how the above thoughts might seem to fit with either ET or ED (which is what I understand you to believe, sister LS). I've seen that teaching before, and I don't believe it. We are not born saved, we're born lost - with the sin of Adam upon us. IMO, a real problem with that theory is that all must come THROUGH Jesus, and every knee will bow and every tongue confess. Through Him is the only way to the Father. The Bible makes no allowances for being saved through innocence. Babies are given a spirit that comes from God to begin with. So even though in a baby's body and mind, I believe when standing before Jesus they will still bow and confess Jesus is Lord. I DO NOT believe they go to so-called "hell", but that every tongue still must confess, whether saved in this lifetime or having gone through kolasis aionian.
My understanding. Blessings to you both.
If reincarnation is true there is a possibility that the baby, can be saved in his next life, next vessel by claiming Jesus as saviour.
Quote from: Molly on February 07, 2011, 11:36:20 PM
Ok hans,
well Jesus is doing it intentionally. He is intentionally speaking a language they will not understand. So he must have a good reason for doing this.
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
--Mat 13
GOOD BENEFICIAL DISCUSSION. As Hans said, it's causing me to think and dig into some things. :thumbsup:
Molly, I believe absolutely! It's part of God's plan. ("it's the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter").
Jesus hid Himself (Who He truly was) from the masses when on earth. ("...why parables?... it's not been given to them to know/to you it's been given to know the secrets of the Kingdom"). Many people died during that time. Did God just choose to send them to eternal hell (or eternal death) while He was walking the earth hiding Himself from most of them, with no further plan to "remedy" things? I personally can't believe that to be the case.
Also Molly, following up on our earlier thoughts.
I've still been having some wonderment over this.
1) I do believe the elect are the predestined, while the rest are added later after kolasis aonian (temporary correction [spiritual Lake of Fire]). EVERY knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord IN the Holy Spirit. No man can Jesus Lord except in the Holy Spirit. (I Cor. 12:3) When one confesses Jesus is Lord THEY ARE SAVED. (Rom. 10:9) Each in his own order. (I Cor. 15:23)
So if the names in the Book of Life are the
elect/saved in the ages (Old Cov, New Cov) prior to the upcoming next age , then I believe they
will endure - God Himself ensures it. I for one DO NOT believe we either attain or maintain our salvation. Paul said if you're "justified" (the law doesn't save) by the law, you've "fallen" from grace (i.e., not depending on Christ). I believe that the elect are guaranteed to run the race and finish the course;
And I am certain that God,
who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally
[will complete it] finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. Phil. 1:6
I believe in holiness, righteousness.
I don't believe in sinning more so grace may abound. I believe (not always able) in surrender and obedience. But as discussed in other places, these need to be
HIS works through us, because our works are as filthy rags and will be burned. So further;
So then it
does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on
God who has mercy. Romans 9:16
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph. 1:13
Looking to
Jesus the
author and
finisher of our faith; Heb. 12:2
for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that
he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return. 2 Timothy 1:12
For by grace you have been
saved through
faith. And this is
not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Eph. 2:8
So who's blotted out, and what does it mean? Most here believe all are eventually reconciled, but the details of the Book of Life are in question.
Maybe it doesn't describe in every possible detail 1) who's put in, 2) who's taken out, 3) when they're written back in. Maybe every exact line is not filled in exactly as we'd want it.
But we do know this; quote self :) - "I know there are other scriptures that talk about
all being reconciled,
God being
All in All,
all summed up in Christ, every tongue confessing Jesus is Lord IN [lit. transl.] the Holy Spirit ("whoever believes/confesses will be saved"); all those Paulinian verses that go beyond what some believe to be the final accounting, i.e., "Revelations" (the Revelation or Unveiling of Jesus Christ) and show the ultimate reconciliation of all of creation. Also, in the Unveiling itself, there's the picture of the
gates of the city being open day and night, never locked, as the kings (us, believers) bring our treasures (new believers) into it, the
leaves of the Tree of Life healing the nations,
no more death, pain, tears-which precludes an eternal torment - never mind the character of love Himself!."
Quote from: thinktank on February 08, 2011, 01:06:04 AM
If reincarnation is true there is a possibility that the baby, can be saved in his next life, next vessel by claiming Jesus as saviour.
But since it's appointed unto man ONCE to die, then probably not until the next age. :2c:
(that's another thread anyway, rascal. LOL :handshake:)
Quote from: Molly on February 07, 2011, 11:36:20 PM
Ok hans,
well Jesus is doing it intentionally. He is intentionally speaking a language they will not understand. So he must have a good reason for doing this.
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
--Mat 13
When Jesus speak sin parables i.e the wheat and the tares, he speaks in parables because of he told them bluntely, they would be angry and cast stones on him. Every time Jesus directly answered them, they cast stones upon him.
Does Jesus speak in parabes to hide the kingdom from them?
Seems contradictory to the message of Jesus. "Woe to the blind guides, you shut up the kingdom of heaven and make him a 2 fold child of hell"
So if Jesus does the same and hides the kingdom, isn't that hypocrisy?
There is a plausable explanation. Ok God sometimes dishes out punishements for any old covenant saint that broke the laws etc, he also dished out words of judgment against people like, King of Babylon and King David. Perhaps in this instance when Jesus says
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
--Mat 13
That God has already judged these fellows and that he does not want them to have mercy or to be more exact, does not want them to have an easy way out for the evil they may have done.
And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given." Mt. 13:11
"Born saved"--that's Calvinism. And although the Bible has a very strong 'Calvinistic' strain in it, there are also real problems with Calvinism as doctrine.
TT, Jesus stood in front of the Pharisees and Scribes on more than one occasion and said horrible things to them. [So did John the Baptist]. Imagine if we went out evangelizing and calling people Vipers and a pit of snakes and a den of thieves?
Would we expect to win converts?
Clearly he wasn't expecting to convert them, and they completely ignored the truth of his words and refused to repent, so my conclusion--These words were said for us, for our benefit, not for them. The Bible even says they have a veil--and they must, because how they missed their Messiah is beyond me. Today most don't even bother to look--How many Jews say to themselves, let me check this out if Jesus could possibly really be our Messiah? If they looked, they would see it.
I'm more and more thinking that our Bible is just written for those who will be brought into the kingdom in this age--from Moses until the fullfillment of the Gentiles. What happens in the next age is not very well spelled out. Should it be? Or should the day be sufficient unto itself? I have enough problems just getting through the day.
But the Bible does say that someday God will be all in all-- NOT all in all that's left. :Sparkletooth:
Or perhaps simply he just wants to give the mysteries the wonderous stuff to his closest companions :bigGrin:
Quote from: thinktank on February 08, 2011, 01:33:54 AM
Or perhaps simply he just wants to give the mysteries the wonderous stuff to his closest companions :bigGrin:
wow I was just looking at a verse last night where Paul calls those he's writing to 'true companion.' The word in Greek means 'co-yoked' or 'yoke-fellows.'
Yes, I would like to be HIS true companion. His yoke is easy.
Philippians 4:3
Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Hi All,
I haven't read every post but I think I have a different view of this than any one else here.
My :2c: for what they are worth.
I believe the book of Revelation is mostly directed at Israel. Well, in fact the whole Bible is. Doesn't it stand to reason that the "book of life" are the names of all the Israelites, since they were the chosen nation? Now, I don't believe any Gentile's name is in this book, that is why it mentions "names not written in the book of life", they are not Israelites. When a name is blotted out it means they either died, or are not considered an Israelite. This is why Moses was willing for his name to be blotted out (Ex. 32:32-33) (Psalms 69:28).
Here God threatened to blot out the whole nation.(Deut. 9:14) Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and BLOT OUT THEIR NAME from under heaven; and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater then they.
CHB
Quote from: Molly on February 08, 2011, 01:33:09 AM
"Born saved"--that's Calvinism. And although the Bible has a very strong 'Calvinistic' strain in it, there are also real problems with Calvinism as doctrine.
I didn't say they were born saved. Jesus said that having Abrham as their father would not save them, they had faith in their ethnicity, instead of having a living faith such as Abraham.
TT, Jesus stood in front of the Pharisees and Scribes on more than one occasion and said horrible things to them. [So did John the Baptist]. Imagine if we went out evangelizing and calling people Vipers and a pit of snakes and a den of thieves?
Would we expect to win converts?
He called Peter Satan. For God or an anointed man like Jesus, however you wish to look at it, his words would pierce the heart and it would cut the stony heart and give them a heart of flesh. Some of these pharisses were so hardened in their hearts, that grace did not move them, such as when Jesus talked about the sabbath day I think or was it the man with the withered hand.
Clearly he wasn't expecting to convert them, and they completely ignored the truth of his words and refused to repent, so my conclusion--These words were said for us, for our benefit, not for them. The Bible even says they have a veil--and they must, because how they missed their Messiah is beyond me. Today most don't even bother to look--How many Jews say to themselves, let me check this out if Jesus could possibly really be our Messiah? If they looked, they would see it.
TT
I disagree in some sense but not whole. Jesus was not sent but to the lost house of Israel and some of the pharisses did have a heart after God. I think there is an instance where a pharisse speaks up for christ, by saying "Does our law condemn an inncocent man", or something like that.
I have looked at some scriptures and this is current understanding.
Gods propehcy was that Israel be saved. But they by their own wickedness rejected the message as a group. so God then hardens their already hard heart. I think the purpose of this might be because a very hard heart can see the difference between righteousness and evil but a grey heart that is only half hard, will more than likely become pridefull or dismiss the difference between their greyishness and the white. A bit like I might be gray but that is good enough for me I have shades of white in me. But a black heart would see the difference and think oh my I wish I were to become as white as that.
I will explain the mstery of this parable. The Black heart is the hardened Jew heart that God commanded, the white heart is the glory and fullness of the times of the gentiles, that provoke the black heart to jealousy, the grey heart was the heart that the Jews had before God hardened it. So my thery is that God hardened their hearts so that in future they can see their own misery and be jealous of the gentiles much better than a greay heart would be. What do you think ? I think it's a great explanation :bigGrin:
I'm more and more thinking that our Bible is just written for those who will be brought into the kingdom in this age--from Moses until the fullfillment of the Gentiles. What happens in the next age is not very well spelled out. Should it be? Or should the day be sufficient unto itself? I have enough problems just getting through the day.
TT
I could be wrong but I think that the bible will be widely used during the 1000 millenium peace. It is possible that Jesus may not be visible to the people at that time but will rule in the heavens with his saints over restored Jerusalem. The word of the lord goeth forth from Jerusalem and the nations do flow into it to honour the king every year. Isiah
But the Bible does say that someday God will be all in all-- NOT all in all that's left. :Sparkletooth:
Wow! Some really good insights! "those brought into the kingdom in this age"; "only a book of the Israelites"; being His companion; "God will be all in all-- NOT all in all that's left".
Beautiful! More things to think about.
Jabcat said:
QuoteWe are not born saved, we're born lost - with the sin of Adam upon us
Just to not be mistaken, I don't mean to imply that people come into this world void of the taint of Adam's fall. Certainly, the fallen separated nature is passed on from Adam unto all his progeny. However, when the young pass, Christ's sacrifice provides for them. For example, when the aborted child passes, she does not go unto the zone of separation, but rather, passes unto the realm of Light and Life. Just wanted to emphasize that so not to be mistaken.
CHB said
QuoteI believe the book of Revelation is mostly directed at Israel.
While it is true that there is a strong Israel focus, we still need to remember that Revelation speaks to:
Revelation 14:6
. . . to EVERY nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,[/color]
QuoteDoesn't it stand to reason that the "book of life" are the names of all the Israelites
I don't think it works, here's why; The Bible says:
John 3:16
For God so loved the WORLD. . .[/color]
If the Lamb's Book of Life contained ONLY the names of Israelites, then john 3:16 would have to read "For God so loved the ISRAEL"
Jesus purchased the right to His Book of Life by His blood, which was shed not ONLY for Israel, but for ALL the world.
Israel could be considered a subset of ALL the World.
Because the Book of Life now belongs to Jesus, it is called the Lamb's Book of Life.
Because Jesus, by His blood, was given the right to break the seals and open the Book, he is allowed to:
1. Open the Book
2. Delete names out of the Book
3. Confess names unto His Father from the Book.
QuoteI don't believe any Gentile's name is in this book
So Saint Luke's name is not in the Book of Life? How about the Galatians that Paul wrote to? The Corinthians? The Romans? I don't think it works to restrict the Book of Life to ONLy Israelis, when Christ clearly was providing a means unto God for ALL.
Quoteif Jesus does the same and hides the kingdom, isn't that hypocrisy?
No, it's not. He was in essence revealing to them their true condition. They thought they knew, they didn't. Before a person who is firmly convinced that they are right, but really wrong, they need to be shown, that they really don't know. If you notice, frequently when a person expressed incredulity to Christ's claim's, He didn't try to make it easier for them to understand, rather, He commonly responded with an even harder thing to grasp.
Quote from: Hansc on February 08, 2011, 10:32:44 AM
Jabcat said:
QuoteWe are not born saved, we're born lost - with the sin of Adam upon us
Just to not be mistaken, I don't mean to imply that people come into this world void of the taint of Adam's fall. Certainly, the fallen separated nature is passed on from Adam unto all his progeny. However, when the young pass, Christ's sacrifice provides for them. For example, when the aborted child passes, she does not go unto the zone of separation, but rather, passes unto the realm of Light and Life. Just wanted to emphasize that so not to be mistaken.
I don't know that we're
worlds apart on this piece Hans, but I think a
bit. I don't know of any scrips that indicate salvation by innocence. What I do see is that Jesus said all must come THROUGH Him. So I don't believe we're born saved. We're born with a God-shaped hole in our heart only Jesus can fill (sorry, it's a song I wrote once :bigGrin:)
I'm not positive about the Israel part CHB mentioned, I do think it's very interesting though and worth further consideration.
As far as the last paragraph, I agree with much/all of that. And I was thinking earlier - don't we all pretty much think it's the other guy that's blinded? :afFro:
Jabcat
QuoteI don't know of any scrips that indicate salvation by innocence.
Consider.
Mark 10:14
Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not[/color]
The words of Christ are not just a record of what Christ said a long time ago, but transcend time and space and are ALIVE. It's not so much that He said these things, but rather that He is SAYING this RIGHT NOW. The passage I posted in the spirit realm, is a constant, living call going forth and forth and forth. It is alive.
So when the little child passes, from this realm unto the realm of Spirit, this living call, grips him and pulls him into the realm of Life and Light. Maybe, I'm not using the best way to describe this, but when the little child passes unto spirit, this living spoken Word creates a "tractor beam" (for lack of a better word) and pulls them unto Him.
I'll have to think about that scripture some more, because right now I don't see that's what it truly means. I think there's other context(s) to consider/things related. I'll mull it.
I'm back. OK, I've mulled it a little (more to come lol). Sure, I believe they come to Him - that He wants them to. But I still believe they, as must everyone else, kneel and confess Him as their Lord. The spirit God gave them is in a little child's mind and body, but the spirit is not a little child. It is a part of God's creation that still must acknowledge Him for Who He is. IMO, that's the scripture - "no man comes to the Father but through Me".
I believe you were doing a little supposing in your post. Now, this next piece is admittedly supposition on my part - putting 2 and 2 together and hopefully coming up with 4 - but I don't believe that spirit that was in that child must go through a long Lake of Fire experience to bring them to a cleansing, confessing repentance, with works of their flesh, anything not of God having to burned "so the spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord". In that sense, there is a bit of innocence at play.
But to the bottom line, and where I believe this connects to the Book of Life discussion; I don't believe there's any scriptural evidence that people are born saved. I believe it's totally the opposite. We're born under Adam's curse. But that doesn't mean God doesn't have a remedy for the child. I believe He does, as He does for adults; they must come through Jesus to be saved. My coming up with (hopefully) 4 here is, the hardened, sin filled reprobate is likely to need a whole lot more kolasis aionian to bring them to repentance, whereas that little child's spirit will immediately recognize Jesus as the Savior, accept and confess Him. Part of that I believe is absolutely scriptural, i.e., we're born lost by inheritance, we must be saved by grace, coming through the Son. Again, some of the rest of it is my reasoning, and I could be missing some things on that part. I believe the scriptural parts are sound, though. I hope on the rest of it.
Quote from: Hansc on February 08, 2011, 11:02:52 AM
Jabcat
QuoteI don't know of any scrips that indicate salvation by innocence.
Consider.
Mark 10:14
Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not[/color]
The words of Christ are not just a record of what Christ said a long time ago, but transcend time and space and are ALIVE. It's not so much that He said these things, but rather that He is SAYING this RIGHT NOW. The passage I posted in the spirit realm, is a constant, living call going forth and forth and forth. It is alive.
So when the little child passes, from this realm unto the realm of Spirit, this living call, grips him and pulls him into the realm of Life and Light. Maybe, I'm not using the best way to describe this, but when the little child passes unto spirit, this living spoken Word creates a "tractor beam" (for lack of a better word) and pulls them unto Him.
:thumbsup:
I really enjoyed that. I know in my heart that Jesus loves the children.
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.--Mat 18
Quote from: Hansc on February 08, 2011, 10:32:44 AM
Jabcat said:
CHB said
QuoteI believe the book of Revelation is mostly directed at Israel.
While it is true that there is a strong Israel focus, we still need to remember that Revelation speaks to:
Revelation 14:6
. . . to EVERY nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,[/color]
QuoteDoesn't it stand to reason that the "book of life" are the names of all the Israelites
I don't think it works, here's why; The Bible says:
John 3:16
For God so loved the WORLD. . .[/color]
If the Lamb's Book of Life contained ONLY the names of Israelites, then john 3:16 would have to read "For God so loved the ISRAEL"
Jesus purchased the right to His Book of Life by His blood, which was shed not ONLY for Israel, but for ALL the world.
Israel could be considered a subset of ALL the World.
Because the Book of Life now belongs to Jesus, it is called the Lamb's Book of Life.
Because Jesus, by His blood, was given the right to break the seals and open the Book, he is allowed to:
1. Open the Book
2. Delete names out of the Book
3. Confess names unto His Father from the Book.
QuoteI don't believe any Gentile's name is in this book
So Saint Luke's name is not in the Book of Life? How about the Galatians that Paul wrote to? The Corinthians? The Romans? I don't think it works to restrict the Book of Life to ONLy Israelis, when Christ clearly was providing a means unto God for ALL.
Just because the book of life only has the names of the Israelites in it , doesn't mean that the rest of the world won't be saved. This is two seperate things. Just like Israel being the chosen nation doesn't mean that the rest of the world won't be saved.
CHB
Exactly C. Each in his own order. And after that possibly the women :icon_jokercolor:
If the book of Life only has Israelites in it that's proof people can be added.
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
Everyone will be grafted into the tree of life. Eventually. First the first fruits = elect - peepz in Book of Life.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2011, 04:26:48 PM
Exactly C. Each in his own order. And after that possibly the women :icon_jokercolor:
If the book of Life only has Israelites in it that's proof people can be added.
Why do you say that?
Quote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved? The book of life does not determine who is saved and who is not. After all, all Israelites will be saved.
Quote from: WhiteWings
Everyone will be grafted into the tree of life. Eventually. First the first fruits = elect - peepz in Book of Life.
:2c:
The way I see this is, we Gentiles no longer have to be grafted into Israel, we are in God because of what Jesus accomplished. In the beginning, according to the NC, Gentiles had to be grafted in, but after the Mystery was revealed Paul came to see that we no longer need to be grafted in to Israel, now we are the children of God, not children of Israel. Now, the way to salvation is through Christ, not Israel.
CHB
Paul said if we be christs are we not Abrahams seed according to the promise
# Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I personally don't understand what exactly it means to be the seed of Abraham, but I know that something happens which transfers his blessings to us, because of Christ. It is a promise that Christ made to Abraham and by being and claiming to be his seed we provoke God, to pour his blessings upon us, due to his word to Abraham that cannot be cancelled.
Quote from: thinktank on February 08, 2011, 08:21:35 PM
Paul said if we be christs are we not Abrahams seed according to the promise
# Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Yes.
Meaning Abraham had Christ in him, the hope of glory. Just like we do.
Quote from: CHB on February 08, 2011, 07:27:30 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2011, 04:26:48 PM
Exactly C. Each in his own order. And after that possibly the women :icon_jokercolor:
If the book of Life only has Israelites in it that's proof people can be added.
Why do you say that?
See below.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved?
I'm saying the opposite. If Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....
Quote from: Molly on February 08, 2011, 08:23:28 PM
Quote from: thinktank on February 08, 2011, 08:21:35 PM
Paul said if we be christs are we not Abrahams seed according to the promise
# Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Yes.
Meaning Abraham had Christ in him, the hope of glory. Just like we do.
Romans 11:17 (New International Version, ©2010)
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
PS Abraham was a Gentile. His father was a pagan.
Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Genesis 26:4
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
"nations"
H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
Abraham can't be saved then, he is not an Israelite :icon_jokercolor:
From my nderstanding it seems to be that Israel is a people that God has brought forth the prophets, therefore God has a love for them because of that.
Romans 10
1 Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: "The person who does these things will live by them."[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'"[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]
1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
God's Sovereign Choice
6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]
Israel's Unbelief
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
Quote from: thanktank
1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah,
Notice, everything in this is about Israel and Paul says if he could wish to be cut off from Christ for the sake of his own people he would. Having one's name blotted out does not mean they will not be saved. Neither does the fact that names are not written in the book of life mean they won't be saved. It just means that they will either die or won't be among the names of Israel, or among the righteous names of Israel.
Number 5 shows that this book of life is all about Jesus which includes the names of his ancestors.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved? [/quote]I'm saying the opposite. If Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....
[/quote]
WW, I don't know what you are saying here. The book of life as I understand it, is all about Christ and the names of his ancestors. It is like a biography. Why would Gentiles names be in it? It has nothing to do with salvation. I think it can be explained kind of like the kingdom of God., being in the kingdom ,or not being in the kingdonm, has nothing to do with whether a person is saved or not.
CHB
Quote from: CHBThe book of life as I understand it, is all about Christ and the names of his ancestors. It is like a biography. Why would Gentiles names be in it?
Because of this, CHB
25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me
for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations,
but now is made manifest to his saints: 27To whom
God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: --Col 1
:bgdance: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
I'm a gentile and I'm in the kingdom, at least trying to, it's a long trek to the promised land.
QuoteQuote from: CHB on February 09, 2011, 01:53:19 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved?
I'm saying the opposite. If Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....
We are talking in circles....
This is how I see things:
a] Salvation is a fact, being part the millenium Kingdom is not.
b] Book of life is the elect.
But... now read the topic title and what board section this post is in.
Many people believe those who are not in BoL are doomed for eternity.
So I wrote an answer to adress the view of the people who believe in that doom.
Many pagans converted to Christianity near Jesus death. Even 50 year old Romans who worshipped many false gods. So I guess they were not in BoL. If so why would the apostles even bother to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles(=pagans).
I hope it's a bit clearer now. If not I have no clue how to explain it more clearly.
:icon_jokercolor:
White Wings said:
QuoteIf Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....
Excellent point! The Gospel was brought to the Gentiles, so the Gentiles must be in the Book of Life. As was also pointed out IF the Book of Life was ONLY for Israel, then Abraham and Issac could NOT be in there, and that even feels funny just thinking about it.
QuoteBook of life is the elect.
Then you end up with portions of the elect getting blotted, but the non-elect NOT getting blotted. If so, how are they elect?
How "elect" are you really if a bunch of you get "blotted?"
I think it works better if viewed as a Book of the Called.
I don't think it works if viewed as a Book of the "Chosen."
I think it's similar to an earthly reservation book.
All employees were invited to the company dinner. Everybody, received an invitation. Everybody had their name written on a bent card and placed at a seat on a table.
Your name was on the card, a long time before, you even showed up. When you showed up, you were allowed in because your name was on a card. Your name was on the card before you had even taken one bite of food. None were turned away, whosoever wanted could come.
They don't write in your name WHEN you show up, your name is already there. They wrote your name in when they PLANNED the dinner.
However, if you don't show up, in the allotted time, then they will blot out your name.
Any employee who showed up was allowed to sit and eat, because ALL employees had their names on the card and in the reservation Book from day ONE of the planned celebration.
However, some employees did not show up, even though their names were on the card. Some didn't hear about the banquet, some were too busy, some just didn't believe. Yet still, their names were on the card and in the Book.
The employer wanted ALL to come to the banquet, but He wasn't going to drag them. He simply gave out a memo and told everyone to pass the word to any absentees.
Those who did NOT show up, had their names blotted out, even though they started off with their names in. Many were called, but not all came.
It works that way with airplanes too. You can have a reserved seat with your name on it. But if you miss the flight, your name gets erased.
I just made reservations for tomorrow night. My name is in the book. If I fail to show up, my name gets blotted out of the book.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 08:53:16 AM
This is how I see things:
a] Salvation is a fact, being part the millenium Kingdom is not.
b] Book of life is the elect.
But... now read the topic title and what board section this post is in.
Many people believe those who are not in BoL are doomed for eternity.
So I wrote an answer to adress the view of the people who believe in that doom.
Many pagans converted to Christianity near Jesus death. Even 50 year old Romans who worshipped many false gods. So I guess they were not in BoL. If so why would the apostles even bother to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles(=pagans).
Good summary. :thumbsup:
Hi Hans. Where do you personally see the following scrips fitting into the scenario you describe above?
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally [will complete it] finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. Phil. 1:6
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph. 1:13
Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; Heb. 12:2
for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return. 2 Timothy 1:12
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Eph. 2:8
Thanks, God bless.
I found this verse in Genesis interesting and somewhat in line with the idea of God writing BEFORE creation.
Genesis 2:4-5
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, and every plant of the field BEFORE it was in the earth, and every herb of the field BEFORE it grew:[/color]
So there seems to have been created some sort of master list of all plants, herbs, animals, people and so that would over the course of the world be brought forth into the world.
It's almost like a parts list of the world, including ALL the people that would in the course of the world be brought forth into the world.
But then the world fell into the hand of the dark one and with it the list of all the names in the list of the world. It's not that God didn't know or couldn't remember the names in the list, but in a way they now belonged to the dark kingdom.
So how was God going to get this list back?
John 3:16
For God so loved THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/color]
In a way, you could say, Jesus purchased the Book of the people of this world with His own blood.
This Book, now belongs to Jesus. It is His Book, by virtue of His blood purchase.
Revelation 5:9
"Worthy are You to take the Book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.[/color]
This gives Jesus the right to issue a call to anyone in THIS world. This gives everyone in THIS world the right to the benefits of Christ's purchase. Essentially, because of Christ, everyone has the RIGHT to receive Christ by faith. No one who is brought forth into THIS world will be turned away, because, by virtue of being in the Book that Christ now has, they are entitled to be saved.
Now the devil, fallen angels and his crew are NOT part of the World that Christ died for. So they are NOT going to get a call. They do NOT have a God purchased right to get saved. They were NEVER a part of the list of people to be brought forth unto THIS world.
So why do we only see writing into the Book BEFORE the foundation.
And only 'blotting out" after the foundation.
Why is writing into always past?
Why is blotting out always future?
Since the Book has been created there is ONLY subtraction from the Book.
There is no Scriptural account of any addition. There is no need to add to the Book because everybody starts of in the Book.
God is not adding to the Book, but He is whittling it down.
What if the book's not the end of the story?
Quote from: jabcat on February 09, 2011, 09:45:03 AM
Hi Hans. Where do you personally see the following scrips fitting into the scenario you describe above?
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally [will complete it] finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. Phil. 1:6
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph. 1:13
Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; Heb. 12:2
for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return. 2 Timothy 1:12
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Eph. 2:8
Thanks, God bless.
Using the above scenario of the dinner call.
QuoteIn Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph. 1:13
Here the sealing does not happen with the call, but rather with the response of believing to the call. At the point of responding in faith to the call, a person is sealed with the Spirit of promise. In effect, avoiding potential deletion, because they chose to receive Christ by faith. Essentially, they show up at the call and partake of Christ, thereby avoiding blotting.
QuoteI am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally [will complete it] finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. Phil. 1:6
The work of the Spirit 'within you' begins' at the point of "eat this is my body" , that is, when you respond to the call and by faith partake of Christ. Those who show up to the offered feast experience a beginning work within, those who do not, do not, and are potentials candidates for eventual deletion.
QuoteSo then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16
Food works within you, not so much activated by your will, but rather by inherent properties. All you have to do is eat, the food will do the work of forming.
Quotefor I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return. 2 Timothy 1:12
So, Paul showed up at the feast, received Christ by faith, trusts in Christ, that as Christ has provided the appetizer, so will He continue until the final dessert.
Quote from: jabcat on February 09, 2011, 09:53:03 AM
What if the book's not the end of the story?
Since God knows the entire beginning from the entire end, maybe the Book is bigger than we think?
Quote from: Hansc on February 09, 2011, 10:11:05 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 09, 2011, 09:53:03 AM
What if the book's not the end of the story?
Since God knows the entire beginning from the entire end, maybe the Book is bigger than we think?
Certainly possible. Well, in fact, I feel very sure everything of God is MUCH bigger than we think! :thumbsup:
Which leads into this;
Let's for the moment, for the sake of discussion, go with everything you said 3 posts back is true. I still believe the Book is taking us to further events, not that it's the final event. (see posts # 3, 14, 45 in this thread).
However, even though it may be true all names are in the Book from the beginning, I don't believe that's without question the case. I believe there are other possibilities; Israel and/or the elect being 2 of them. There may be others.
*To all, for further exploration/insight, revelation. Something hit me a few minutes ago that I believe is a crucial piece of this. We've talked about names being written in the Book before the foundation of the world. Get this; when was Jesus the Lamb slain?
Quote from: Hansc on February 09, 2011, 10:11:05 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 09, 2011, 09:53:03 AM
What if the book's not the end of the story?
Since God knows the entire beginning from the entire end, maybe the Book is bigger than we think?
And our minds are smaller than we think...
Speaking of minds the whole BoL concept is a bit strange for an all knowing God.
Because He knows the end why did He even bother to write the names in BoL that will be blotted out?
Jabcat
QuoteTo all, for further exploration/insight, revelation. Something hit me a few minutes ago that I believe is a crucial piece of this. We've talked about names being written in the Book before the foundation of the world. Get this; when was Jesus the Lamb slain?
I have to run, but will read tomorrow, I'm curious when do you think the Lamb was slain?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 10:28:02 AM
Quote from: Hansc on February 09, 2011, 10:11:05 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 09, 2011, 09:53:03 AM
What if the book's not the end of the story?
Since God knows the entire beginning from the entire end, maybe the Book is bigger than we think?
And our minds are smaller than we think...
Speaking of minds the whole BoL concept is a bit strange for an all knowing God.
Because He knows the end why did He even bother to write the names in BoL that will be blotted out?
interesting point, that is...
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
That would be on or just before Gen 1:1
Quote from: Hansc on February 09, 2011, 10:35:11 AM
Jabcat
QuoteTo all, for further exploration/insight, revelation. Something hit me a few minutes ago that I believe is a crucial piece of this. We've talked about names being written in the Book before the foundation of the world. Get this; when was Jesus the Lamb slain?
I have to run, but will read tomorrow, I'm curious when do you think the Lamb was slain?
There's clear scripture that says, but I'm going to hold back while others think it over and respond. There may be some new connected insights.
haha Tony, you posted before mine. :thumbsup:
so if the Book was written before, and the Lamb was slain before... could that change the assumption that the Book is just a roll of everyone born? doesn't there seem more of a tie than that? maybe? also, is there only 1 book, more than 1 book? I may be wrong, but both being 'before' seems much more than coincidence to me.
There are different groups being spoken of in the Bible.
Are they all the same people? Maybe this is where the confusion lies.
To list some of the groups:
The elect
The sons
The bride
The guests
The friends of the groom
The saved
Jesus tells different parables to describe these different groups
Paul fills in some more of the details because Jesus himself does not go into much detail past the end of this age.
This parable describes the bride:
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
--Mat 25
Here John the Baptist calls himself the friend of the groom:
29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30He must increase, but I must decrease.
--John 3
Look here what the apostle Paul says of his role:
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
--2 Cor 11
And Abraham:
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
BookS are opened. But there is only one BoL mentioned.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
"had done" = works = bookS
The use of BoL is not mentioned in this verse. BoL is just opened.
I think it also clearly shows the BoL concept is not as black and white as some believe.
In the book -> heaven
Not in the book -> hell
Somehow the other books are needed too. Why not just one other book?
If we continue reading we see people cast into LoF so it could be argued that's the classic hell. (which I don't believe)
BoL is very closely related to Jesus. Water also.
If we keep reading a few verses we see New Jerusalem. All things made new. Etc
Then Rev 21:6
He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.
Believers already drank from the water. The believe in Father, Son and all sort of Biblical teachings. They are immortal. So imo they are not thirsty. Only the sinners outside teh gate are thirsty.
Rev 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Only perfection in New Jerusalem. Is sickness perfection?
Rev 22:2
down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
This verse is long after BoL. All the bad element of society are in LoF. Only those in BoL are allowed in New Jerusalem.
In New Jerusalem perfection rules. No more pain, tears, and sickness.
Then what is the use of that tree with healing powers? All BoL people are perfected. They are never ill anymore.
So those leaves (and the water) are not for BoL people....
Healing of bad people is still in progress after many are cast in LoF.
So for me the nations that need healing are crawling out of LoF.
They eat from the tree. One can only eat from the tree if one is inside the city. And one can only be inside if he/she is in BoL. Rev 21:27
So names can be added.
:bgdance:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 10:48:54 AM
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
That would be on or just before Gen 1:1
The lamb is slain from the foundation of the world [casting down of the kosmos]
But the elect are chosen in Christ before the world [aion] began.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus
before the world began,Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised
before the world began;From the foundation of the world=apo katabole kosmos
Before the world began= pro chronos aionios
QuoteBefore the world began= pro chronos aionios
Before enternity began? :icon_king:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 12:09:37 PM
QuoteBefore the world began= pro chronos aionios
Before enternity began? :icon_king:
It's a long story. :happygrin:
1Paul, a servant [doulos/bondsman] of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect [eklektos], and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2In hope of eternal [aionios] life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before [pro] the world began [aionios chronos];
3But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
--Titus 1
"elect"
G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.
The ghost of Calvin:
Matthew 22:14
For many are called [klētos] , but few are chosen [eklektos].
"called"
G2822
κλητός
klētos
klay-tos'
From the same as G2821; invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint: - called.
"chosen"
G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.
Jesus told them more stories. He said, 2 "Here is what the kingdom of heaven is like. A king prepared a wedding dinner for his son. 3 He sent his servants [doulos] to those who had been invited to the dinner. The servants told them to come. But they refused.
4 "Then he sent some more servants. He said, 'Tell those who were invited that I have prepared my dinner. I have killed my oxen and my fattest cattle. Everything is ready. Come to the wedding dinner.'
5 "But the people paid no attention. One went away to his field. Another went away to his business. 6 The rest grabbed his servants. They treated them badly and then killed them.
7 "The king became very angry. He sent his army to destroy them. They killed those murderers and burned their city.
8 "Then the king said to his servants, 'The wedding dinner is ready. But those I invited were not fit to come. 9 Go to the street corners. Invite to the dinner anyone you can find.' 10 So the servants went out into the streets. They gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad. Soon the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 "The king came in to see the guests. He noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man couldn't think of anything to say.
13 "Then the king told his servants, 'Tie up his hands and feet. Throw him outside into the darkness. Out there people will sob and grind their teeth.'
Matthew 22:14
For many are called [klētos] , but few are chosen [eklektos].
Just some random questions :mblush:
- Who's the bride of Jesus?
- Is the bride in BoL?
- Who are the guests? -> Note that the wedding guests always arrive after the week bride and groom spend in the bridal chamber.
The bride:
31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
--Eph 5
"church"
G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
--2 Cor 11
But we see in the story of the ten virgins that when the groom comes for his bride only five have the oil. The other five are shut out of the marriage room.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
--Mat 25
Look what he says to them:
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
--Mat 25
This sounds similar to the wedding guest who comes to the dinner without wedding clothes.
PS I was taught the wedding dinner happens after the groom comes for his bride. He takes his bride to the home he has prepared, and the guests have the wedding dinner while the groom is in the marital chamber with his bride consummating the marriage--the guests are outside making merry to celebrate the wedding.
QuotePS I was taught the wedding dinner happens after the groom comes for his bride. He takes his bride to the home he has prepared, and the guests have the wedding dinner while the groom is in the marital chamber with his bride consummating the marriage--the guests are outside making merry to celebrate the wedding.
Nope. The guests arrive 7 days after the bride was 'stolen'
They are in the chamber for 7 whole days. Not 7 minutes :icon_jokercolor:
I'll just start my old rambling. The NT is a wedding book. Especially the what often is called the rapture. (just using that term for clarification not promoting it)
When a man (Jesus) wants to mary a girl (believers) he goes to her father (Father God)
They start discussing the bridal price. (His life)
To seal the deal the couple drinks a glass of wine. (Last Supper?)
The couple is now engaged. (Jesus + believers)
The man (Jesus) goes away and starts preparing the bridal chamber is his fathers house (my Fathers house has many mansions)
The father'of the bride has to approve the chamber that's why the groom doesn't know the hour.
Usually that period is 1-2 year.
After the father approves the groom(Jesus) gathers some friends (angels)
They go as a thief in the night to the bride's house to "steal" her away.
However the groom waits at a certain distance of her house.
They blow on a ramshorn (Rev. trumpets) and the friend (angels) grab the bride and carry her to the groom. (feet don't tought the ground?)
That's usually called rapture/stealing the bride away.
The bride and groom are in their chamber for 7 days (7 years of Rev)
Then after those 7 days the guests arrive.
It doesn't fit exactly but....
I don't know how it's called in English but if a couple marriage they get a little 'bridal book' that 'proves' they are married.
BoL is that wedding book :dontknow:
Hmmzz, this site tells a diffrent story: http://www.reocities.com/Area51/quark/8784/bride.html
http://ldolphin.org/wedding.html
No party for the bride: http://www.allaboutgod.net/group/thebrideofchrist/forum/topics/1383940:Topic:175955
QuoteDuring the seven days of the wedding festivities, which were sometimes called "the seven days of the huppah," the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber
http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/marriage.htm
Seems to be some holes in my story :sigh:
Quote from: wwBoL is that wedding book
That's interesting. Here we register with the state and get a marriage license before the wedding takes place. Is that like the register where he is writing the names of those born in Zion? [psa 87]
I'm thinking the called out [ekklesia] could at any time be chosen to be the bride. That is, the bride is chosen from that group. [The invitation went first to the Jews but they rejected it]. When the groom comes for his bride, some will have oil, some won't. Some will be wearing wedding clothes, some won't. That is why he says, be prepared because no one knows the time and hour. I think the time and the hour is specific to each Christian--although I know some believe it will happen to all at once and call it the 'rapture'.
Like you said, the wedding actually takes place a year or two before the consummation, and it happens privately between the bride and the groom in a ceremony where bread and wine are shared [communion]. After that, it is very hard for either one to break off the agreement because they are now [legally] married.
So is the consummated marriage the first resurrection [which I believe will include glorified bodies]? Or does it happen before that in the life of each believer, [when we are given an earnest of our inheritence], and the first resurrection includes only those who are the consummated bride--who now become the manifested sons of God?
Quote from: Molly on February 09, 2011, 11:24:37 AM
There are different groups being spoken of in the Bible.
Are they all the same people? Maybe this is where the confusion lies.
To list some of the groups:
The elect
The sons
The bride
The guests
The friends of the groom
The saved
Jesus tells different parables to describe these different groups
Paul fills in some more of the details because Jesus himself does not go into much detail past the end of this age.
This parable describes the bride:
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
--Mat 25
Here John the Baptist calls himself the friend of the groom:
29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30He must increase, but I must decrease.
--John 3
Look here what the apostle Paul says of his role:
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
--2 Cor 11
And Abraham:
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Perhaps because John the baptis and Abraham are the old testament saints. Jesus regard John the baptist an old testament saint (Elijah :winkgrin:) He says no one is born greater under woman than John the baptist, but he that is least in the kingdom ( Heaven, or earth?) is greater than he. If Jesus is refering to kingdom life on earth then my theory makes sense, that the old test saints are called friends of God, but new test saints are called bride or wife.
If Jesus is refering to kingdom life in heaven, then my theory does not fit so well, since Abraham was dead in he may have been in heaven, therfore he would be greater than John the baptist, because he would be in the kingdom of heaven.
Just a thought . . .something I've not really given much thought to before now but, could the friends of the groom be those who've already left this life, this realm and are now living with the Father and the bride be those who are yet living in this world? Paul talks about if he's not in this body, he's with the Lord. That sounds like a friend of the groom.
On another level . . .who's to say we aren't both? Can we not be a Father and a brother, and an Uncle, a husband, a neighbor, a grandfather . . .all at the same time? "Perhaps, but you can't be all those tings to the same person." True, but I "can" be a husband to my wife and a Father to her children at the same time. I can be her husband and her best friend at the same time. She can be my bride and my best friend as well . . .could we just be getting hung up on linguistics?
John the baptis called God his friend when he was on the earth though.
29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30He must increase, but I must decrease.
--John 3
Also Abraham was his friend on the earth and he was not in heaven when he said this.
I can be her husband and her best friend at the same time. She can be my bride and my best friend as well . . .could we just be getting hung up on linguistics?
Possibly, Jesus sometimes said whosever does my will is my mother, brother etc maybe this is what John the baptist is talking about
Quote from: thinktank on February 09, 2011, 08:49:17 PM. . .could we just be getting hung up on linguistics?
We should try to avoid that. But I think teh truth is close to the Jewish wedding ceremony.
Jesus is male. His bride is female. So the only possible marriage partners are called female/she in the Bible.
A groom has friends. Obviously the grome doesn't marry the friends but they are invited at the wedding feast.
So if we apply that little bit of knowledge to saved and not saved it's clear there is more than black and white.
The bride is dearly loved and ofcourse saved. But like in a earthly wedding the couple (2 persons) are outnumbered by the bridemaids and friends of the groom. Not to mention all kind of relatives, friend and collegues.
So for me that means most that are not the bride are not in LoF.
Another little thing I think is of importance but am totally unable to apply...
The bride is veiled all the time. Nobody really knows who she is. But after the seven days are over she removes the veil in front of all guests and they finally see the bride.
Removing a veil = unveiling = Revelation :umnick:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 09:12:02 PM
Another little thing I think is of importance but am totally unable to apply...
The bride is veiled all the time. Nobody really knows who she is. But after the seven days are over she removes the veil in front of all guests and they finally see the bride.
Removing a veil = unveiling = Revelation :umnick:
Yes!
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then
face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.The two shall become one flesh equals manifested sons of God?
What are the wedding clothes to be worn to the wedding feast?
...as God's chosen people [the elect of God], holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves[enduo] with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
--Col 3:12-14
53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
"put on"
G1746
ἐνδύω
enduō
en-doo'-o
From G1722 and G1416 (in the sense of sinking into a garment); to invest with clothing (literally or figuratively): - array, clothe (with), endue, have (put) on.
--1 Cor 15
The bride/elect/sons of God
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
...as also I am known.
Corinthians 8:3
3but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
Psalm 37:18
18The LORD knows the days of the blameless,
And their inheritance will be forever.
Nahum 1:7
7The LORD is good,
A stronghold in the day of trouble,
And He knows those who take refuge in Him.
John 10:14
14"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
2 Timothy 2:19
19Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
Psalm 1:6
6For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the wicked will perish.
Jeremiah 1:5
5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
Romans 8:29
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Psalm 1
1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 08:53:16 AM
QuoteQuote from: CHB on February 09, 2011, 01:53:19 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved?
I'm saying the opposite. If Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....
We are talking in circles....
This is how I see things:
a] Salvation is a fact, being part the millenium Kingdom is not.
b] Book of life is the elect.
But... now read the topic title and what board section this post is in.
Many people believe those who are not in BoL are doomed for eternity.
So I wrote an answer to adress the view of the people who believe in that doom.
Many pagans converted to Christianity near Jesus death. Even 50 year old Romans who worshipped many false gods. So I guess they were not in BoL. If so why would the apostles even bother to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles(=pagans).
I hope it's a bit clearer now. If not I have no clue how to explain it more clearly.
:icon_jokercolor:
WW, I see what you are saying now, sometimes Im a bit slow, please be patient God isn't finished with me yet.
I have been gone all day, so may have missed a post or two.
In answer to "the way you see things".
a] I agree with.
b] I don't agree with.
One reason is, (Psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
This sounds like the righteous is written in a different place. Also, why would the elect be blotted out of the book of life.
Just last week a friend and I were talking about "from the foundation and before the foundation of the world". According to what we have found, we the body, was predestined before the foundation of the world and Israelites the bride, were chosen from the foundation of the world. I believe there is a difference as you have began to see.
CHB
CHB how can the bride be Israel, if by Israel you mean the Jews or the ancient Israelites, when Paul himself says that the bride is the church [ekklesia]?
31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
--Eph 5
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
--2 Cor 11
Summarizing some of my various thoughts and incorporating things I've read from others-
Given all that's been discussed the past 24 hours, including the bride, the elect, and the Book and Lamb before and from the foundation of the world - could there be the Book of Life AND the Book of the Lamb? And they be for 2 different groups/purposes? (also it's mentioned there are multiple writings/lists)
If God is "whittling down" the Book of Life, it appears that does lead to a crucial "next phase" of things in God's time-table. However, we see many things happening after that, i.e., Ultimate Reconciliation. Every tongue confessing Jesus as Lord, EACH IN HIS OWN ORDER.
In Revelation, where there's the OP's "accounting" of the Book of Life (which thought by ET and ED believers to support their view);
Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
Authority (21:24,25)
Power (21:24,25; 22:2
Kings (21:24-26)
Saints reign (22:5)
Second death still exists (21:5)
The nations still mortal (22:2
Whereas Paul's accounts shows there's much to occur after that, that the Book of Life/Lake of Fire events are not the end of the story, but rather steps in the whole process. It's there we see much of the picture of the Ultimate Reconciliation; (I Cor. 15:22-28)
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed.
All made alive, immortal
One thing to keep in mind is that Jesus is the 'author' of our perfection.
He's the one writing the book. That would mean the book is us.
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
--Heb 5
Quote from: CHB on February 10, 2011, 03:30:03 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 08:53:16 AM
QuoteQuote from: CHB on February 09, 2011, 01:53:19 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings
What's the use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles if they have no chance of salvation?
What makes you think the Gentiles won't be saved?
I'm saying the opposite. If Gentiles won't be saved then there was no use bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles. But the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles so....
We are talking in circles....
This is how I see things:
a] Salvation is a fact, being part the millenium Kingdom is not.
b] Book of life is the elect.
But... now read the topic title and what board section this post is in.
Many people believe those who are not in BoL are doomed for eternity.
So I wrote an answer to adress the view of the people who believe in that doom.
Many pagans converted to Christianity near Jesus death. Even 50 year old Romans who worshipped many false gods. So I guess they were not in BoL. If so why would the apostles even bother to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles(=pagans).
I hope it's a bit clearer now. If not I have no clue how to explain it more clearly.
:icon_jokercolor:
WW, I see what you are saying now, sometimes Im a bit slow, please be patient God isn't finished with me yet.
I have been gone all day, so may have missed a post or two.
In answer to "the way you see things".
a] I agree with.
b] I don't agree with.
One reason is, (Psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
This sounds like the righteous is written in a different place. Also, why would the elect be blotted out of the book of life.
I can't answer that. But I can repeat a question I asked before:
If God is alknowing why did He make the mistake of putting names in BoL while He should have known they will be taken out.
I think it's best to clarify the above. I don't say God has limitations. I'm saying mankind has no clue what the verse means. And, dear CHB, that included womenkind :laughing7:
QuoteJust last week a friend and I were talking about "from the foundation and before the foundation of the world". According to what we have found, we the body, was predestined before the foundation of the world and Israelites the bride, were chosen from the foundation of the world. I believe there is a difference as you have began to see.
The Bible also says Father loved the Son and gave all things in His hands. (famous all word...) So from that pov all sheep are in BoL. But they run away and are no longer in the fold/BoL.
CHB I don't have the answer. I just have some feeling that's based on verses but I can't prove with scientific accuracy. Anyway your post gave me a few more idea's. Flawed ones but I think a starting point to work with
BoL=elect=First Fruits=Sheep fold=Bride=wedding book
Quote from: jabcat on February 10, 2011, 06:01:54 AM
Summarizing some of my various thoughts and incorporating things I've read from others-
Given all that's been discussed the past 24 hours, including the bride, the elect, and the Book and Lamb before and from the foundation of the world - could there be the Book of Life AND the Book of the Lamb? And they be for 2 different groups/purposes? (also it's mentioned there are multiple writings/lists)
The way I see it no.
The verse seems to be clear there is 1 BoL and a unmentioned amount of books in which works are record.
I have some problems with the grammar of the verse but one thought keeps going through my head.
BoL is no book. BoL=Jesus.
Jesus has so many poetic names.
Son of God. Son of Mankind. Living Water. The Tree of life. The shepherd. The Lamb. Etc Etc.
Remember that we are created in Jesus. The only way to Heaven/Father is through Jesus. Bit playing with words but when one goes through something s/he is at a certain point in that something.
Quote from: wwBoL is no book. BoL=Jesus.
Yes!
The book of life is the Christ. The Christ, in the sense of anointed one, is a hologram.
Ephesians 5:30
30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.10
For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
--Eph 2
"workmanship"G4161
ποίημα
poiēmapoy'-ay-mah
From G4160;
a product, that is,
fabric (literally or figuratively): - thing that is made, workmanship.
... that he may be the firstborn of many brothers.--Rom 8:29
Chb said
QuoteOne reason is, (Psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
This sounds like the righteous is written in a different place. Also, why would the elect be blotted out of the book of life.
Blotting them out would qualify as them then being separated, or in a different place. Because people are blotted out does not necessarily mean that they must be written somewhere else.
Quotewhy would the elect be blotted out of the book of life.
Maybe the Calvinist doctrine of election has serious flaws?
Perhaps the Calvinist understanding of "predestination" misrepresents true Biblical predestination and is more akin to a carnal philosophical determinism.
This is interesting. There is a register of the house of Israel. The Eze passage says that false prophets and divinators will be excluded from the register [blotted out?]. The Ezra passage says those not found in the register are excluded from the priesthood because they are unclean.
Remember, Israel is a chosen nation, an elect nation. But, there is then a question of who is enrolled in Israel. God talks about making them a nation of priests. Then in the NT, Paul talks about some of the branches broken off [blotted out?] and the wild branches grafted in [added to the BoL?]. The Israelites cannot be a nation of priests without Jesus whom they have rejected. But Paul says because of election they will be saved.
Another aspect to the book of life, in addition to referring to those who will participate in the first resurrection and aionios life, must also be referring to the Melchizedec priesthood, a priesthood based on an eternal[aionios] life. Only the first resurrection will be the Melchizedek priesthood? They will rule and reign with Jesus, the high priest. They are the royal priesthood [both king and priest] referred to in 1 Peter.
This refers to the false prophets and divinators who will not be enrolled in the register of Israel.
Ezekiel 13:9
9My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
This is referring to the ones returning from the Babylonian exile who cannot be found in the register.
Ezra 2:62
62These sought their registration among those enrolled in the genealogies, but they were not found there, and so they were excluded from the priesthood as unclean.
This refers to the unregenerate wicked who are blotted out of the register of Israel.
...and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
--Psa 69
These are the ones who are written into the book of life and remain there.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen [eklektos] generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
The book of life is a register of the holy nation of priests--Zion!
19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
--Luke 10
Everyone agrees that if an infant dies, they go to heaven yes? Would that not then mean that their name is "in" the book of life? Say that infant doesn't die, his name IS in the book of life, but later in their life, they choose to live as they please with no relationship with God . . .would that not then cause that which "was" in the book to then be blotted out?
Quote from: Molly on February 10, 2011, 06:24:24 AM
One thing to keep in mind is that Jesus is the 'author' of our perfection.
He's the one writing the book. That would mean the book is us.
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
--Heb 5
"He's the one writing the book. That would mean the book is us." Molly I believe that the Lord has given you the wisdom and first step we need to begin to understand the Book of Life.
2Co 3:2 our letter ye are, having been written in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 manifested that ye are a letter of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart,
2Co 3:4 and such trust we have through the Christ toward God,
2Co 3:5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything, as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God,
Quote from: Nathan on February 10, 2011, 04:02:09 PM
Everyone agrees that if an infant dies, they go to heaven yes? Would that not then mean that their name is "in" the book of life? Say that infant doesn't die, his name IS in the book of life, but later in their life, they choose to live as they please with no relationship with God . . .would that not then cause that which "was" in the book to then be blotted out?
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/
Quote from: Molly on February 10, 2011, 01:09:14 PM
This is interesting. There is a register of the house of Israel. The Eze passage says that false prophets and divinators will be excluded from the register [blotted out?]. The Ezra passage says those not found in the register are excluded from the priesthood because they are unclean.
Remember, Israel is a chosen nation, an elect nation. But, there is then a question of who is enrolled in Israel. God talks about making them a nation of priests. Then in the NT, Paul talks about some of the branches broken off [blotted out?] and the wild branches grafted in [added to the BoL?]. The Israelites cannot be a nation of priests without Jesus whom they have rejected. But Paul says because of election they will be saved.
Another aspect to the book of life, in addition to referring to those who will participate in the first resurrection and aionios life, must also be referring to the Melchizedec priesthood, a priesthood based on an eternal[aionios] life. Only the first resurrection will be the Melchizedek priesthood? They will rule and reign with Jesus, the high priest. They are the royal priesthood [both king and priest] referred to in 1 Peter.
This refers to the false prophets and divinators who will not be enrolled in the register of Israel.
Ezekiel 13:9
9My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
This is referring to the ones returning from the Babylonian exile who cannot be found in the register.
Ezra 2:62
62These sought their registration among those enrolled in the genealogies, but they were not found there, and so they were excluded from the priesthood as unclean.
This refers to the unregenerate wicked who are blotted out of the register of Israel.
...and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
--Psa 69
These are the ones who are written into the book of life and remain there.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen [eklektos] generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
The book of life is a register of the holy nation of priests--Zion!
19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
--Luke 10
:goodpost: :2thumbs:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/
Um. . .not sure what you were trying to say by posting this. It's not a thread, it's a page of threads . .which one is it that you thought I should be reading?
don't be so lazy. read them all. :laughing7:
my bad, it was supposed to be this one.
just my beliefs on it...there are still probably things I need to learn about it, but that's where i am now
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/revelation_221819_taken_out_book_life_8986.msg116673.html#msg116673
Quote from: CHB on February 08, 2011, 02:05:39 AM
Hi All,
I haven't read every post but I think I have a different view of this than any one else here.
My :2c: for what they are worth.
I believe the book of Revelation is mostly directed at Israel. Well, in fact the whole Bible is. Doesn't it stand to reason that the "book of life" are the names of all the Israelites, since they were the chosen nation? Now, I don't believe any Gentile's name is in this book, that is why it mentions "names not written in the book of life", they are not Israelites. When a name is blotted out it means they either died, or are not considered an Israelite. This is why Moses was willing for his name to be blotted out (Ex. 32:32-33) (Psalms 69:28).
Here God threatened to blot out the whole nation.(Deut. 9:14) Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and BLOT OUT THEIR NAME from under heaven; and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater then they.
CHB
If I see it symbolically and the Israeliites REPRESENT believers and Gentiles REPRESENT unbelievers . . .then yeah, I could maybe see that the book of life would hold only Israeltes names in it . . .but I can't accept that the Book of Life is literally only full of Jews. the name of the book is not "Book of Jews/Israelites". If there be life in a Gentile . . .his signed-nature is in that book.
As far as that goes, the moment we allow ourselves to be transformed by the invitation of Christ in our hearts, we go from being Gentiles, both literally and spiritually . .to Jews . . .spiritually. We are all spiritual Jews, the New Jerusalem is a city that consists of all those who've given themselves over to the cross. It's a spiritual city full of spiritual lives even though we still have hands and feet of flesh, we can see from our inward parts that we are a part of that New city as well.
Quote from: Nathan on February 10, 2011, 04:02:09 PM
Everyone agrees that if an infant dies, they go to heaven yes? Would that not then mean that their name is "in" the book of life? Say that infant doesn't die, his name IS in the book of life, but later in their life, they choose to live as they please with no relationship with God . . .would that not then cause that which "was" in the book to then be blotted out?
Yes that always throws a wrench in the works, doesn't it? This is where we get into trouble into trying to understand the book of life and such. Surely all babies must are foreknown to die as babies must be in the BoL. Which then leads some to believe that everyone must be in the book of life, and then later are blotted out. But there are problems with that view as well... as has been discussed previously...
Why is it that it is so very horrific to think that there might be babies burning forever in some eternal hell? And the answer is of course because that is a very affront to our human compassion to think of a poor helpless baby suffering forever, or worse, being physically burned forever. Horrible. Tradition tells us that all must believe before they die or they will spend eternity in endless suffering. Except for the babies - because that would just be too horrible.
But why is this too horrible for a baby to endure, yet it is not too horrible for a grandmother to endure? We think to ourselves,
surely God would not let a helpless baby suffer forever. Yet He would allow a sweet old grandmother to endure the same fate? That is reasoning gone bonkers.
We see this type of doctrine of "exceptions" extended further depending on who you talk to. It is all based on human reason and compassion (which IMHO is not always a bad thing).
babies will not go to hell - they couldn't make a choice
mentally ill people will not go to hell - they don't understand
people who never heard the gospel will have a chance after death (ie. those in the dark ages, living in foreign countries, desert island, etc)
But why stop there?
What about teenagers who die, that were raised in bad families who never had a chance to understand? They deserve to get out of hell just as much as the babies.
Likewise, what about atheists, who
were never even given faith to believe? Surely if they had been given enough faith they would have believed.
So we can see this same type of reasoning can be extended to include
everyone who hasn't believed in this life.
At the very least we must concede that people
can be saved after death - because we know that none are righteous, not even little babies. Unless you think babies are burning in hell.
And this all throws a wrench in the works of what we think the Book of Life is about.
God Has Not Rejected His People
1Am I saying that God has turned his back on his people? Certainly not! I am one of the people of Israel, and I myself am a descendant of Abraham from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not turn his back on his chosen people. Don't you remember reading in the Scriptures how Elijah complained to God about the people of Israel? 3He said, "Lord, they killed your prophets and destroyed your altars. I am the only one left, and now they want to kill me."
4But the Lord told Elijah, "I still have seven thousand followers who have not worshiped Baal." 5It is the same way now. God was kind to the people of Israel, and so a few of them are still his followers. 6This happened because of God's undeserved kindness and not because of anything they have done. It could not have happened except for God's kindness.
7This means that only a chosen few of the people of Israel found what all of them were searching for. And the rest of them were stubborn, 8just as the Scriptures say,
"God made them so stupid
that their eyes are blind,
and their ears
are still deaf."
9Then David said,
"Turn their meals
into bait for a trap,
so that they will stumble
and be given
what they deserve.
10Blindfold their eyes!
Don't let them see.
Bend their backs
beneath a burden
that will never be lifted."
Gentiles Will Be Saved
11Do I mean that the people of Israel fell, never to get up again? Certainly not! Their failure made it possible for the Gentiles to be saved, and this will make the people of Israel jealous. 12But if the rest of the world's people were helped so much by Israel's sin and loss, they will be helped even more by their full return.
13I am now speaking to you Gentiles, and as long as I am an apostle to you, I will take pride in my work. 14I hope in this way to make some of my own people jealous enough to be saved. 15When Israel rejected God, [a] the rest of the people in the world were able to turn to him. So when God makes friends with Israel, it will be like bringing the dead back to life. 16If part of a batch of dough is made holy by being offered to God, then all of the dough is holy. If the roots of a tree are holy, the rest of the tree is holy too. 17You Gentiles are like branches of a wild olive tree that were made to be part of a cultivated olive tree. You have taken the place of some branches that were cut away from it. And because of this, you enjoy the blessings that come from being part of that cultivated tree. 18But don't think you are better than the branches that were cut away. Just remember that you are not supporting the roots of that tree. Its roots are supporting you.
19Maybe you think those branches were cut away, so that you could be put in their place. 20That's true enough. But they were cut away because they did not have faith, and you are where you are because you do have faith. So don't be proud, but be afraid. 21If God cut away those natural branches, couldn't he do the same to you?
22Now you see both how kind and how hard God can be. He was hard on those who fell, but he was kind to you. And he will keep on being kind to you, if you keep on trusting in his kindness. Otherwise, you will be cut away too.
23If those other branches will start having faith, they will be made a part of that tree again. God has the power to put them back. 24After all, it wasn't natural for branches to be cut from a wild olive tree and to be made part of a cultivated olive tree. So it is much more likely that God will join the natural branches back to the cultivated olive tree.
The People of Israel Will Be Brought Back
25My friends, I don't want you Gentiles to be too proud of yourselves. So I will explain the mystery of what has happened to the people of Israel. Some of them have become stubborn, and they will stay like that until the complete number of you Gentiles has come in. 26In this way all of Israel will be saved, as the Scriptures say,
"From Zion someone will come
to rescue us.
Then Jacob's descendants
will stop being evil.
27This is what the Lord
has promised to do
when he forgives their sins."
28The people of Israel are treated as God's enemies, so that the good news can come to you Gentiles. But they are still the chosen ones, and God loves them because of their famous ancestors. 29God doesn't take back the gifts he has given or forget about the people he has chosen.
30At one time you Gentiles rejected God. But now Israel has rejected God, and you have been shown mercy. 31And because of the mercy shown to you, they will also be shown mercy. 32All people have disobeyed God, and that's why he treats them as prisoners. But he does this, so that he can have mercy on all of them.
33Who can measure the wealth and wisdom and knowledge of God? Who can understand his decisions or explain what he does?
34"Has anyone known
the thoughts of the Lord
or given him advice?
35Has anyone loaned
something to the Lord
that must be repaid?"
36Everything comes from the Lord. All things were made because of him and will return to him. Praise the Lord forever! Amen.
Romans 11
Quote from: legoman on February 10, 2011, 09:49:42 PM
Quote from: Nathan on February 10, 2011, 04:02:09 PM
Everyone agrees that if an infant dies, they go to heaven yes? Would that not then mean that their name is "in" the book of life? Say that infant doesn't die, his name IS in the book of life, but later in their life, they choose to live as they please with no relationship with God . . .would that not then cause that which "was" in the book to then be blotted out?
Yes that always throws a wrench in the works, doesn't it? This is where we get into trouble into trying to understand the book of life and such. Surely all babies must are foreknown to die as babies must be in the BoL. Which then leads some to believe that everyone must be in the book of life, and then later are blotted out. But there are problems with that view as well... as has been discussed previously...
Why is it that it is so very horrific to think that there might be babies burning forever in some eternal hell? And the answer is of course because that is a very affront to our human compassion to think of a poor helpless baby suffering forever, or worse, being physically burned forever. Horrible. Tradition tells us that all must believe before they die or they will spend eternity in endless suffering. Except for the babies - because that would just be too horrible.
But why is this too horrible for a baby to endure, yet it is not too horrible for a grandmother to endure? We think to ourselves, surely God would not let a helpless baby suffer forever. Yet He would allow a sweet old grandmother to endure the same fate? That is reasoning gone bonkers.
We see this type of doctrine of "exceptions" extended further depending on who you talk to. It is all based on human reason and compassion (which IMHO is not always a bad thing).
babies will not go to hell - they couldn't make a choice
mentally ill people will not go to hell - they don't understand
people who never heard the gospel will have a chance after death (ie. those in the dark ages, living in foreign countries, desert island, etc)
But why stop there?
What about teenagers who die, that were raised in bad families who never had a chance to understand? They deserve to get out of hell just as much as the babies.
Likewise, what about atheists, who were never even given faith to believe? Surely if they had been given enough faith they would have believed.
So we can see this same type of reasoning can be extended to include everyone who hasn't believed in this life.
At the very least we must concede that people can be saved after death - because we know that none are righteous, not even little babies. Unless you think babies are burning in hell.
And this all throws a wrench in the works of what we think the Book of Life is about.
It wasn't due to it just being too horrible. It was due to the fact that they are still in their innocense, they've not chosen, nor have they rejected because they aren't old enough to know right from wrong. We are born in a realm of sin in innocense, but without the invitation to Christ, sin will rule . . . sin merely means to miss the mark. Without Christ, the child grows up never realizing God has marked the minds of men with his redemptive hand. And until they do, they/we continue to walk according to our own reasoning.
Of course none of this really is an issue now as where I am now, I see that the veil of death that we go through when passing from this realm to the next is the same veil a child who died early would also go through. Taking hell out of the equasion changes a lot of areas that used to be of great concern, now they are irrelevant as the final destination is the same for all due to the power of the cross.
That's still something that boggles the mind. But the seed of life is in us and because of that seed, the covenant of God is honored by God and grace abounds all the more.
Found something weird in TCB.
Rev 22:19 is about the Log of Life
a] Notice the caps usually used for divinity.
b] Log is not logbook (I think) because the commentary states it was formerly Tree of Life Gen 2:9, 3:22
c] All other verses in Rev are translated as Scroll of Life. Again notice the caps. (same for LoF...)
Some translations use Scroll. Others Book. That's no big deal but if in the same translation everytime it's Scroll of Life and the very last time it's Log of Life it's interesting at least.
Note#1: I checked a interlinear and I see no reason why this verse should be translated diffrently. - James can you check the Companion?
Note#2: scroll is allways written in lower case except when it is Scroll of Life then caps are used. (Divinity?)
Used verses
Rev 3:5
Rev 13:8
Rev 17:8
Rev 20:12
Rev 20:15
Rev 21:27
Rev 22:19
Phill 4:3
Just something my sleepy head noticed.
Good night.
Quote from: Nathan on February 10, 2011, 10:49:46 PM
It wasn't due to it just being too horrible. It was due to the fact that they are still in their innocense, they've not chosen, nor have they rejected because they aren't old enough to know right from wrong. We are born in a realm of sin in innocense, but without the invitation to Christ, sin will rule . . . sin merely means to miss the mark. Without Christ, the child grows up never realizing God has marked the minds of men with his redemptive hand. And until they do, they/we continue to walk according to our own reasoning.
Indeed - I agree. They are in innocence, they don't know right & wrong. Even with older kids - they are learning right & wrong, but they aren't responsible yet. How can you be responsible for something you don't know.
Yet tradition proclaims: MAKE A CHOICE FOR CHRIST OR BURN FOREVER (excuse the shouting! :bigGrin:).
Then they have to add "except if you are not responsible" - which covers babies and young children. But again why stop there - how is any of us "responsible" for our own salvation? That would mean we could boast.
Quote
Of course none of this really is an issue now as where I am now, I see that the veil of death that we go through when passing from this realm to the next is the same veil a child who died early would also go through. Taking hell out of the equasion changes a lot of areas that used to be of great concern, now they are irrelevant as the final destination is the same for all due to the power of the cross.
That's still something that boggles the mind. But the seed of life is in us and because of that seed, the covenant of God is honored by God and grace abounds all the more.
:thumbsup: Exactly. Once you realize there is no place of hopeless endless suffering, your perspective changes and other things begin to make sense.
(Amen Molly, wonderful scrips!)
-----------------------------
I believe all must go through Jesus. I don't believe I see a "salvation of innocence" anywhere. I see it that the post I quoted to Nathan a few posts back about babies fits with the message of UR. It also seems to fit with the predestination of the ecclesia and God ensuring their endurance (as opposed to attempting to explain away those verses by saying they mean "foreknowledge"); as God is setting the ecclesia aside (called out) for a purpose - to use us to help bring the rest in as God "demonstrates His kindness/mercy in the ages to come". So as all go through Jesus to get to the Father, each in their own time (order), and each according to their own need (few stripes/many stripes); so then the Book of Life is one ( major) step in multiple steps to God becoming All in All. :2c:
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy Rm. 9:16
All names written in the Book of Life, based on innocence, then whittled down as we sin or reject God? I may of course be wrong, but I have doubts about that.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Ps. 51:5
...by nature children of wrath. Ephesians 2:3
I don't see babies, or the mentally retarded etc. needing a lot of correction (like many might to get to the place of repentance). Or even the person in Bora Bora that never even heard the name of Jesus. Still, I believe there will be a time of at least recognition of Who He Is and an acceptance/belief and kneeling and confessing (everyone will Phil 2:10,11);
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Jn. 14:6
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."
--Rev 5:10
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
--Rev 1
one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.
--Heb 7:16
Amen Molly. For the first 35+ years of being a believer, I never believed in or understood predestination. Having a "hell" mindset (but even then not believing God would just torch most of humanity with no "chance" of redemption) I distorted all the clear predestination verses to suit my beliefs, labeling them foreknowledge. I certainly had no idea what being a priest or king was. I hoped I just squeaked into heaven somehow. :angelharp:
(The Noble Berean by Thomas J. Kissinger explains this well). Since God (blessed be His name) showed me UR, I believe He's helped me see just a little how the ecclesia being called out/predestined fits His over-all PLAN, to use His bride as kings and priests to save His creation by ultimately vivifying all (...even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive I Cor. 15:22 YLT). I AM NOT a Calvinist. He believed most would be tortured forever by God's foreordained decree. I believe God's going to redeem His whole creation - the ecclesia predestined, all else destined, through the process and to the time when God is All in All - when ALL are given faith to believe on Jesus as Lord and Savior. Thank God His judgments lead to righteousness (Is. 26:9) and that the end of the Lord is mercy (Js. 5:11).
Thank God.
:thumbsup:Right on
That sort of line of thought promotes a big picture of incredible detail and highlights a future with awesome potential and reality which is currently easy to say but hard to comprehend.
We see the detail of our current creation and are amazed. There is a new creation coming. That will supercede the current creation. We are part of that creation.
WOW!!!
Bless you brother Ross. Amen! It's awesome and humbling. :thumbsup:
No ideas/views on Reply #145 ?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 10, 2011, 11:03:19 PM
Found something weird in TCB.
Rev 22:19 is about the Log of Life
a] Notice the caps usually used for divinity.
b] Log is not logbook (I think) because the commentary states it was formerly Tree of Life Gen 2:9, 3:22
c] All other verses in Rev are translated as Scroll of Life. Again notice the caps. (same for LoF...)
Some translations use Scroll. Others Book. That's no big deal but if in the same translation everytime it's Scroll of Life and the very last time it's Log of Life it's interesting at least.
Note#1: I checked a interlinear and I see no reason why this verse should be translated diffrently. - James can you check the Companion?
Note#2: scroll is allways written in lower case except when it is Scroll of Life then caps are used. (Divinity?)
Used verses
Rev 3:5
Rev 13:8
Rev 17:8
Rev 20:12
Rev 20:15
Rev 21:27
Rev 22:19
Phill 4:3
Just something my sleepy head noticed.
Good night.
Sorry, I missed the details of this. I've painted for hours today and mostly just quickly checked in once in awhile during the day.
Yes, I remember seeing this about the Log of Life in TCB (for those that don't know, The Christian Bible (1991) is one of, if not THE most literal translation available). So I believe it is significant that it says Log of Life (formerly Tree of Life). They must have some insight into the Koine Greek on this that we haven't as yet touched on. Good find. I'll do some looking in the Christian Bible Companion.
Tony, I see nothing in the Companion that seems helpful. Man, I'm really curious now. Some claim the Book of Life is actually Jesus Himself. The caps in the Christian Bible may back that up? However, why changed in Rev. 22 from Tree to Log, I just don't know. I'll research it some more. Very interesting for sure.
Quote from: Nathan on February 10, 2011, 04:02:09 PM
Everyone agrees that if an infant dies, they go to heaven yes? Would that not then mean that their name is "in" the book of life? Say that infant doesn't die, his name IS in the book of life, but later in their life, they choose to live as they please with no relationship with God . . .would that not then cause that which "was" in the book to then be blotted out?
Makes sense to me and I do think that's how it works. That's why you don't ever see people being added, because everybody starts off already "in." Adding people would simply be redundant. When a person does receive Christ and establish a relationship with God, they simply remain in the Book and avoid being blotted "out'.
Which translation are you using for Revelation 22? Mine says :
βίβλος (biblos)
Which in the context of the time would be a scroll. I know we usually say 'book', but a scroll is simply a book in a different form.
Certainly when the fan has stopped its work, all the names remaining will be in the Lamb's scroll of Life, which are in the Lamb, Himself and are a log of their voyage from life unto LIFE.
He's talking about this one in particular. There's a whole thread somewhere on the Christian Bible (1991, Christian Bible Society.)
Quote from: jabcat on February 11, 2011, 09:30:30 AM
(for those that don't know, The Christian Bible (1991) is one of, if not THE most literal translation available). So I believe it is significant that it says Log of Life (formerly Tree of Life). They must have some insight into the Koine Greek on this that we haven't as yet touched on. Good find. I'll do some looking in the Christian Bible Companion.
Quote from: jabcat on February 11, 2011, 09:46:27 AM
Tony, I see nothing in the Companion that seems helpful. Man, I'm really curious now. Some claim the Book of Life is actually Jesus Himself. The caps in the Christian Bible may back that up? However, why changed in Rev. 22 from Tree to Log, I just don't know. I'll research it some more. Very interesting for sure.
Admittingly I only checked 1 Greek version but I see no reason the translation should be different. (Biblos is every verse)
Maybe they have a different manuscript?
Log is strange. A tree is something that lives. A log is a dead piece of wood... :dontknow:
Quote from: Hansc on February 11, 2011, 10:07:11 AMand are a log of their voyage from life unto LIFE.
Log is logbook would make sense. But...
a] Why translate that one verse as Log and all others as Scroll
b] Commentary states it's not about a logbook (the way I read it)
James perhaps you can post the verse including the comment for hans
don't have my Christian Bible in the house right now :(
FYI the Concordant Literal also uses 'log of life'. I was reading it yesterday same time WW was reading the TCB. Coincidence?
Rev 22:2 In the center of its square, and on either side of the river, is the log of life, producing twelve fruits, rendering its fruit in accord with each month. And the leaves of the log are for the cure of the nations.
I thought that 'log' was just referring to 'tree'. Didn't check the greek though.
Quote from: legoman on February 11, 2011, 03:16:11 PM
FYI the Concordant Literal also uses 'log of life'. I was reading it yesterday same time WW was reading the TCB. Coincidence?
Compliment for me; insult for you :bgdance:
Log is logbook or piece of wood. The TCB translator are very certain it's a piece of wood.
Logbook and piece of wood are not similar enough in Greek to accidently mix up the words.
But what is the significance of this find?
Quote from: legoman on February 11, 2011, 03:16:11 PM
Rev 22:2 In the center of its square, and on either side of the river, is the log of life, producing twelve fruits, rendering its fruit in accord with each month. And the leaves of the log are for the cure of the nations.
There is only 1 Jesus so there can be only one Log.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg92482.html#msg92482
Rev 22:2 The cross of life standing on a island in the middle of the river.
ww, the Book of Life = the Tree where the branches are being grafted in and broken off=the Tree of Life=the Cross? :mshock:
Regarding this whole thread:
If it is shown some that some are never in the Book of Life - would that mean that some are never saved?
IMHO I don't think so.
I think the dual-name concept should be investigated more.
When one is converted - they are given a new name.
Saul was converted to Paul.
It is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.
It is an equally safe bet that the apostle Paul is in the Book of Life.
And so it goes for every human?
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 04:25:59 PM
ww, the Book of Life = the Tree where the branches are being grafted in and broken off=the Tree of Life=the Cross? :mshock:
Jesus wasn't nailed to a "classic cross"
He was nailed to a olive/almond/fig tree. A living/green tree not some dead timber.
Menora = a combination of Olive and almond tree design = Tree of life
Fig tree was = tree of good and evil.
It can be reasoned that:
a] Jesus was nailed to a fig tree because what the 1st Adam stole the last Adam put back. = grafted back in.
b] Jesus was crucified on the Mt of Olives not the mount of figs.
I lean toward b]
Quote from: LegomanIt is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.
Well, yeah, he was. He tells us he was. He tells us God set him apart before he was born.
New International Version (©1984)
But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased
New Living Translation (©2007)
But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him
English Standard Version (©2001)
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
--Gal 1:15
ww, I understand the different trees.
But, he was nailed to a living tree? Where do you get that?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 11, 2011, 10:15:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 11, 2011, 09:46:27 AM
Tony, I see nothing in the Companion that seems helpful. Man, I'm really curious now. Some claim the Book of Life is actually Jesus Himself. The caps in the Christian Bible may back that up? However, why changed in Rev. 22 from Tree to Log, I just don't know. I'll research it some more. Very interesting for sure.
Admittingly I only checked 1 Greek version but I see no reason the translation should be different. (Biblos is every verse)
Maybe they have a different manuscript?
Log is strange. A tree is something that lives. A log is a dead piece of wood... :dontknow:
WW, I think you are right about this. My opinion is, the tree of life is Christ but the book of life is his life, including his chosen people from the foundation of the world. Now later, if I read something different that makes more sense than this I may change my mind.
legoman wondered if those whose names are not written in the book of life would be saved? We know they will be saved, since all will be saved.
I was thinking this, sometimes when a family member does something that the rest of the family looks down on, the rest of the family will disown them. After they straighten up, usually the family will welcome them back in, remember the prodigal son? Could this be why and how some are blotted out of the book of life? God did say, those who sin against me, I will blot his name out of the book of life. I pray you guys and girls can figure this all out, I see little flaws in all of our reasonings, including mine.
CHB
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 04:59:16 PM
Quote from: LegomanIt is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.
Well, yeah, he was. He tells us he was. He tells us God set him apart before he was born.
New International Version (©1984)
But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased
New Living Translation (©2007)
But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him
English Standard Version (©2001)
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
--Gal 1:15
But that is Paul speaking.
I guess the question is: why two names? Why Saul & then Paul? Which name is written in the Book of Life? Both Saul & Paul? Or just Paul?
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:03:19 PM
ww, I understand the different trees.
But, he was nailed to a living tree? Where do you get that?
Mostly from books I hav enot in digital format.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg98011.html#msg98011
http://the-crucifixion.org/cross.html
Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree"
1 Peter 2:24 "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree"
Galatians 3:13 "Christ... being made a curse upon us... Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"
BTW the thiefs (who likely were saints) were on the
same tree. Read the part in which the Roman with the hammer broke the legs.
Forming a menora.... 6 streched out arms with a 7th (the tree) in the middle.
Quote from: legoman on February 11, 2011, 05:20:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 04:59:16 PM
Quote from: LegomanIt is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.
Well, yeah, he was. He tells us he was. He tells us God set him apart before he was born.
New International Version (©1984)
But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased
New Living Translation (©2007)
But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him
English Standard Version (©2001)
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
--Gal 1:15
But that is Paul speaking.
I guess the question is: why two names? Why Saul & then Paul? Which name is written in the Book of Life? Both Saul & Paul? Or just Paul?
Paul said he was in BoL. Not Saul.
The new man is/was in BoL. Not the old man.
Quote from: legoman on February 11, 2011, 05:20:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 04:59:16 PM
Quote from: LegomanIt is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.
Well, yeah, he was. He tells us he was. He tells us God set him apart before he was born.
New International Version (©1984)
But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased
New Living Translation (©2007)
But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him
English Standard Version (©2001)
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
--Gal 1:15
But that is Paul speaking.
I guess the question is: why two names? Why Saul & then Paul? Which name is written in the Book of Life? Both Saul & Paul? Or just Paul?
Oh, I see what you're saying--I think. You're saying Paul was written in the BoL before he was born, not Saul.
He's talking here about 'God reveal[ing] his Son in me.'
Seems to me the name written in the BoL is Jesus. Saul or Paul is kinda irrelevant. It's the Son who's revealed that's important. :icon_king:
15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16
was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
The Son was always there [that's why he was set apart before birth], but not revealed....
"reveal"G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptōap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572;
to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.
This is the apocalypse--the book of Revelation.
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: legoman on February 11, 2011, 05:20:21 PM
But that is Paul speaking.
I guess the question is: why two names? Why Saul & then Paul? Which name is written in the Book of Life? Both Saul & Paul? Or just Paul?
Oh, I see what you're saying--I think. You're saying Paul was written in the BoL before he was born, not Saul.
He's talking here about 'God reveal[ing] his son in me.'
Seems to me the name written in the BoL is Jesus. Saul or Paul is kinda irrelevant. It's the Son who's revealed that's important. :icon_king:
I see what you are saying, but I don't think the meaning is that Jesus is written in the BoL. Jesus
is the walking talking BoL. So then names are "
written" in Jesus. The name Saul or Paul is relevant in trying to understand the details. How would this all fit with Revelations?:
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Would this mean that Saul was thrown in the lake of fire, and Saul will never enter the city, but Paul was not thrown in the lake of fire, and Paul will enter the city? (keeping in mind that Saul & Paul
are the same person - but two different natures - also keeping in mind that Revelations is highly symbolic)
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 11, 2011, 05:25:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:03:19 PM
ww, I understand the different trees.
But, he was nailed to a living tree? Where do you get that?
Mostly from books I hav enot in digital format.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg98011.html#msg98011
http://the-crucifixion.org/cross.html
Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree"
1 Peter 2:24 "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree"
Galatians 3:13 "Christ... being made a curse upon us... Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"
BTW the thiefs (who likely were saints) were on the same tree. Read the part in which the Roman with the hammer broke the legs.
Forming a menora.... 6 streched out arms with a 7th (the tree) in the middle.
That's really interesting. I always saw that as metaphor not literal--the metaphor that he was nailed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for us--because that is the tree that leads to death.
wow maybe Tree of the knowledge of good and evil + the crucified Christ=the Tree of Life.
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:31:25 PM
Seems to me the name written in the BoL is Jesus. Saul or Paul is kinda irrelevant. It's the Son who's revealed that's important. :icon_king:
15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
The Son was always there [that's why he was set apart before birth], but not revealed....
"reveal"
G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.
This is the apocalypse--the book of Revelation.
Ok I just re-read this and I think I understand better what you are saying.
The new nature is Jesus revealed in us - so Paul was Jesus revealed in Saul - so in that sense 'Jesus' was written in the BoL - even though I suppose the actual name would be Paul?
Did I get it?
Quote from: legoman on February 11, 2011, 05:42:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:31:25 PM
Seems to me the name written in the BoL is Jesus. Saul or Paul is kinda irrelevant. It's the Son who's revealed that's important. :icon_king:
15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
The Son was always there [that's why he was set apart before birth], but not revealed....
"reveal"
G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.
This is the apocalypse--the book of Revelation.
Ok I just re-read this and I think I understand better what you are saying.
The new nature is Jesus revealed in us - so Paul was Jesus revealed in Saul - so in that sense 'Jesus' was written in the BoL - even though I suppose the actual name would be Paul?
Did I get it?
Well, that's what I was saying. I'm not saying I'm right lol.
But, couldn't this be what it means to get to the Father
through Jesus?
I guess you could take it even further--through that nature of the man, Jesus?
You notice that many of the OT saints [going way back] have el attached to their names? el means God.
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:47:39 PM
Quote from: legoman on February 11, 2011, 05:42:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:31:25 PM
Seems to me the name written in the BoL is Jesus. Saul or Paul is kinda irrelevant. It's the Son who's revealed that's important. :icon_king:
15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
The Son was always there [that's why he was set apart before birth], but not revealed....
"reveal"
G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.
This is the apocalypse--the book of Revelation.
Ok I just re-read this and I think I understand better what you are saying.
The new nature is Jesus revealed in us - so Paul was Jesus revealed in Saul - so in that sense 'Jesus' was written in the BoL - even though I suppose the actual name would be Paul?
Did I get it?
Well, that's what I was saying. I'm not saying I'm right lol.
But, couldn't this be what it means to get to the Father through Jesus?
I guess you could take it even further--through that nature of the man, Jesus?
You notice that many of the OT saints [going way back] have el attached to their names? el means God.
It makes some sense to me. I'm not saying I'm right either LOL! :Sparkletooth:
Question:
when is the lake of fire? Is it right now? (IYHO)
Quote from: LegomanQuestion: when is the lake of fire? Is it right now? (IYHO)
King James Version
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
--Gal 1
For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?--1 Peter 4:7
We've already died, Legoman, [with Christ]. How's your life going since the revelation of Jesus Christ? Lots of fire? :happygrin:
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.--Mat 10:22
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:40:42 PM
That's really interesting. I always saw that as metaphor not literal--the metaphor that he was nailed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for us--because that is the tree that leads to death.
wow maybe Tree of the knowledge of good and evil + the crucified Christ=the Tree of Life.
The parables of Jesus are not His own. They were commonly used by the Rabbi's to explain concepts to the common people. Jesus sometimes gave a little twist to them.
Some things are sayings. They can't be translated. It's useless to analyse the word meanings oof such a saying because it has not to do with what it actually say.
How would you translate "hit the wall"or "meet the man with the hamer" into another language?
It doesn't fit with the type of tree/fruit but what Adam-1 stole Adam-2 put back.
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 06:02:34 PM
Quote from: LegomanQuestion: when is the lake of fire? Is it right now? (IYHO)
King James Version
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
--Gal 1
For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
--1 Peter 4:7
We've already died, Legoman, [with Christ]. How's your life going since the revelation of Jesus Christ? Lots of fire? :happygrin:
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
--Mat 10:22
Thanks Molly, that helped a lot. :happy3:
Yes... lots of fire... :happygrin:
Quote from: legoman on February 11, 2011, 05:54:16 PM
Question: when is the lake of fire? Is it right now? (IYHO)
Then we are judged goats.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 11, 2011, 06:27:42 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:40:42 PM
That's really interesting. I always saw that as metaphor not literal--the metaphor that he was nailed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for us--because that is the tree that leads to death.
wow maybe Tree of the knowledge of good and evil + the crucified Christ=the Tree of Life.
The parables of Jesus are not His own. They were commonly used by the Rabbi's to explain concepts to the common people. Jesus sometimes gave a little twist to them.
Some things are sayings. They can't be translated. It's useless to analyse the word meanings oof such a saying because it has not to do with what it actually say.
How would you translate "hit the wall"or "meet the man with the hamer" into another language?
It doesn't fit with the type of tree/fruit but what Adam-1 stole Adam-2 put back.
There are two trees in the midst of Eden, but only one tree in the Holy City, the tree of life --Rev 22:2.
What does that mean? What happened to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Was that the fig tree that Jesus scorched because it did not bear fruit?
International Standard Version (©2008)
Between the city street and the river, the tree of life was visible from each side. It produced twelve kinds of fruit, each month having its own fruit. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Between the street of the city and the river there was a tree of life visible from both sides. It produced 12 kinds of fruit. Each month had its own fruit. The leaves of the tree will heal the nations.
--Rev 22:2
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 06:46:52 PM
What does that mean? What happened to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Was that the fig tree that Jesus scorched because it did not bear fruit?
For Jews it's very certain it was the fig tree. IIRC Rabbis were even scared of fig tree's scare to be tempted.
They had a building for priests that was called house of unripe figs.
Their writing also teach every tree in Eden withered away but not the fig tree because:
YLTGen 37 and the eyes of them both are opened, and they know that they are naked, and they sew
fig-leaves, and make to themselves girdles.
QuoteWhat happened to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Was that the fig tree that Jesus scorched because it did not bear fruit?
It means no one can eat from teh tree of death. So nobody will die.
YLTMark 1114 and Jesus answering said to it, `No more from thee--to the age--may any eat fruit;' and his disciples were hearing.
I'm very sure "12 kinds" is a very important part of the verse.
What is IIRC?
Legoman
QuoteIt is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.
It is an equally safe bet that the apostle Paul is in the Book of Life.
That's speculation and not at all as safe of a bet as some may think.
Here's why:
What about unborn and unnamed babies? What 'name' do they go by?
What about women who take on their husbands name? What name do they go by?
Will you keep the name you have now for ALL eternity?
Will the name on the 'white rock', the name God gives you supersede the one you have on this side?
For me, it works better if the private name God gives you, the name that Jesus reveals to you when He gives you the white rock is the one that matches up with the name in the Book of Life.
White wings
QuoteJesus wasn't nailed to a "classic cross"
He was nailed to a olive/almond/fig tree. A living/green tree not some dead timber.
Why not on dead wood, for a dead and dying world?
Putting three people on one olive tree would make it a LOT tougher for the Romans. The Romans were not into making it tough on them, they were into making it tough on you.
Are there passages that put Calvary on the Mount of Olives?
Using living trees for crucifixion was not the normal Roman practice. In the Roman-Jewish wars when the Romans crucified thousands of prisoners much of the landscape around the city was stripped of trees due to the need for usable wood for crucifixion.
Quote from: Hansc on February 12, 2011, 02:24:55 AM
Legoman
QuoteIt is a safe bet that Saul (of Tarsus) was not in the Book of Life.
It is an equally safe bet that the apostle Paul is in the Book of Life.
That's speculation and not at all as safe of a bet as some may think.
Here's why:
What about unborn and unnamed babies? What 'name' do they go by?
What about women who take on their husbands name? What name do they go by?
Will you keep the name you have now for ALL eternity?
Will the name on the 'white rock', the name God gives you supersede the one you have on this side?
For me, it works better if the private name God gives you, the name that Jesus reveals to you when He gives you the white rock is the one that matches up with the name in the Book of Life.
And you are not speculating here? That is why we discuss.
I'm not sure you explained why it is not a safe bet. Are you saying Paul may not be in the BoL? ie. He wasn't 'saved'? Or simply that he will be given another new name?
Unborn babies are not named yet, but God knows their earthly name and the new name they will be given, so that is not a problem.
I don't disagree that the name given on the white rock could be the same name as in the book of life. Certainly it is likely that the BoL name is the new name that is given - referring to the new creation.
Why do you think Saul/Paul has two names?
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:40:42 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 11, 2011, 05:25:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:03:19 PM
ww, I understand the different trees.
But, he was nailed to a living tree? Where do you get that?
Mostly from books I hav enot in digital format.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg98011.html#msg98011
http://the-crucifixion.org/cross.html
Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree"
1 Peter 2:24 "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree"
Galatians 3:13 "Christ... being made a curse upon us... Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"
BTW the thiefs (who likely were saints) were on the same tree. Read the part in which the Roman with the hammer broke the legs.
Forming a menora.... 6 streched out arms with a 7th (the tree) in the middle.
That's really interesting. I always saw that as metaphor not literal--the metaphor that he was nailed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for us--because that is the tree that leads to death.
wow maybe Tree of the knowledge of good and evil + the crucified Christ=the Tree of Life.
Hey Molly,
I like what you said here about Christ being nailed to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Never thought of that before.
Wow!! you guys are bringing up some really good points to consider. Wish I had more time to post. :sigh: I am sorry if I missed answering any ones post. :sigh:
CHB
Legoman
QuoteI'm not sure you explained why it is not a safe bet. Are you saying Paul may not be in the BoL? ie. He wasn't 'saved'? Or simply that he will be given another new name?
Unborn babies are not named yet, but God knows their earthly name
Babies that are aborted do not have 'earthly" names because they were never born or named. Yet their name is still in the Book. So perhaps the name that God gives us in the Book may not even be what we call each other here.
Certainly the individual named Saul is in the Book.
Certainly the individual named Paul is in the Book.
They are after all the same person.
They are not two different persons.
The point is that God gives us a new name different than our earthly name on the white stone which we will be known by throughout eternal LIFE.
I think the name we have throughout eternal LIFE, the one on the white stone, is the same name that we are known by in the Lamb's Book of LIFE
The Lamb gives you your new name on a white stone.
The Lamb has His Book of Life with your name in it.
I think the Name the Lamb has for you in the Book.
is the same name the Lamb gives you from the Book.
This is NOT the same name as you are known by here on Earth.
So a person may well have a public name in heaven known to all
and a private name just between him and the lamb.
But, we understand that at this point this is mere speculation.
Quote from: Hansc on February 12, 2011, 02:39:56 AM
White wings
QuoteJesus wasn't nailed to a "classic cross"
He was nailed to a olive/almond/fig tree. A living/green tree not some dead timber.
Why not on dead wood, for a dead and dying world?
Putting three people on one olive tree would make it a LOT tougher for the Romans. The Romans were not into making it tough on them, they were into making it tough on you.
Not really. Jesus was carrying a crossbeam. That a planck of dead wood. The victim was nailed to that piece of wood and then that wood was lifted up in the tree (and nailed to tree)
QuoteThe remains were found accidentally in an ossuary with the crucified man's name on it, 'Yehohanan, the son of Hagakol'.[37][38] Nicu Haas, an anthropologist at the Hebrew University Medical School in Jerusalem, examined the ossuary and discovered that it contained a heel bone with a nail driven through its side, indicating that the man had been crucified. The position of the nail relative to the bone indicates that the feet had been nailed to the cross from their side, not from their front; various opinions have been proposed as to whether they were both nailed together to the front of the cross or one on the left side, one on the right side. The point of the nail had olive wood fragments on it indicating that he was crucified on a cross made of olive wood or on an olive tree. Since olive trees are not very tall, this would suggest that the condemned was crucified at eye level.
http://www.awordfromtheword.org/hung-on-a-tree.htm
QuoteAre there passages that put Calvary on the Mount of Olives?
Romans used 2 main rules for crucifixion spots. They must be very public to scare of people. It was often very near the spot of were the victim was caught or commited the crime. Jesus was was crucified near the altar where the red heifer was burned.
QuoteUsing living trees for crucifixion was not the normal Roman practice. In the Roman-Jewish wars when the Romans crucified thousands of prisoners much of the landscape around the city was stripped of trees due to the need for usable wood for crucifixion.
Nailing to trees was quite common. Lots wood (trees) was used during the siege/war. Note that's I'm not saying Romans never/rarely used classic crosses. They did many many times.
Here's the Christian Bible quote Tony;
In the center of the city's square, and across to each side of the river, was the Log of Life [formerly the Tree of Life (Gen. 2:9, 3:22)], producing twelve kinds of fruit, giving out a different fruit each month; and the log's leaves were for attending to the health of the nations. Now no cursed thing will exist any longer.. Rev. 22: 2,3
Quote from: legoman on February 12, 2011, 06:54:26 AMWhy do you think Saul/Paul has two names?
God changes names. I'm sure those changes are highly significant. Evertyhing in the Bible has a (not so obvious) teaching/meaning in it.
Jacob --> Israel
Abram --> Abraham
Saul --> Paul
Sarai --> Sarah
Simon --> Peter
http://tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu/palmer.pdf
http://www.biblereflections.com/?p=49
http://thealeph.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=59
Quote from: Hansc on February 12, 2011, 08:33:28 AM
Legoman
QuoteI'm not sure you explained why it is not a safe bet. Are you saying Paul may not be in the BoL? ie. He wasn't 'saved'? Or simply that he will be given another new name?
Unborn babies are not named yet, but God knows their earthly name
Babies that are aborted do not have 'earthly" names because they were never born or named. Yet their name is still in the Book. So perhaps the name that God gives us in the Book may not even be what we call each other here.
Sometimes God orders what name to use.
YLTGen 1719 and God saith, `Sarah thy wife is certainly bearing a son to thee, and thou hast called his name Isaac, and I have established My covenant with him, for a covenant age-during, to his seed after him.
Ofcourse that's no proof it's the same name as in BoL. The language in heaven possibly is vastly diffrent from any language on earth.
Maybe we all have a name similar to: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/what_is_his_name_6282.msg66174.html#msg66174
QuoteCertainly the individual named Saul is in the Book.
Certainly the individual named Paul is in the Book.
They are after all the same person.
They are not two different persons.
They are a old bad person and a good new person.
Saul is not in BoL. Paul is.
Quote from: jabcat on February 12, 2011, 09:21:01 AM
Here's the Christian Bible quote Tony;
In the center of the city's square, and across to each side of the river, was the Log of Life [formerly the Tree of Life (Gen. 2:9, 3:22)], producing twelve kinds of fruit, giving out a different fruit each month; and the log's leaves were for attending to the health of the nations. Now no cursed thing will exist any longer.. Rev. 22: 2,3
What if the log is a patibulum (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/church_removes_cross_to_be_more_inclusive_8301.msg98233.html#msg98233)
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 06:46:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 11, 2011, 06:27:42 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2011, 05:40:42 PM
That's really interesting. I always saw that as metaphor not literal--the metaphor that he was nailed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for us--because that is the tree that leads to death.
wow maybe Tree of the knowledge of good and evil + the crucified Christ=the Tree of Life.
The parables of Jesus are not His own. They were commonly used by the Rabbi's to explain concepts to the common people. Jesus sometimes gave a little twist to them.
Some things are sayings. They can't be translated. It's useless to analyse the word meanings oof such a saying because it has not to do with what it actually say.
How would you translate "hit the wall"or "meet the man with the hamer" into another language?
It doesn't fit with the type of tree/fruit but what Adam-1 stole Adam-2 put back.
There are two trees in the midst of Eden, but only one tree in the Holy City, the tree of life --Rev 22:2.
What does that mean? What happened to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Was that the fig tree that Jesus scorched because it did not bear fruit?
International Standard Version (©2008)
Between the city street and the river, the tree of life was visible from each side. It produced twelve kinds of fruit, each month having its own fruit. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Between the street of the city and the river there was a tree of life visible from both sides. It produced 12 kinds of fruit. Each month had its own fruit. The leaves of the tree will heal the nations.
--Rev 22:2
I find it interesting that God reverts back to the tree of life. This suggests that a large portion off humanity will live because they eat the tree of life. But we as believers in this age already have eternal life. Paul said we shall be changed in an instance that mortality shall put on immortality.
I don't know if this has anything to with the lambs book of life. Perhaps those in the lambs book are believers and receive life through Christ, but those not in the book will receive life via the tree of life, as they were unworthy of the lamb, so they will instead receive Gods mercy of being fed, supernatural fruit that Adam and Eve had access too in the garden.
Think Tank
Quote from: Hansc on February 12, 2011, 08:33:28 AM
Certainly the individual named Saul is in the Book.
Certainly the individual named Paul is in the Book.
They are after all the same person.
They are not two different persons.
Yes - same person, but two different natures. The new name corresponds to the new nature. The old name corresponds to the old nature.
Old nature = physical, carnal
New nature = spiritual, reborn in Christ
The old nature is not saved. It is destroyed. It is replaced with the new nature.
Saul's old nature was to persecute and kill - he did this to the letter of the law, yet completely missed the spirit of the law: LOVE YOUR ENEMY.
Quote
The point is that God gives us a new name different than our earthly name on the white stone which we will be known by throughout eternal LIFE.
I think the name we have throughout eternal LIFE, the one on the white stone, is the same name that we are known by in the Lamb's Book of LIFE
The Lamb gives you your new name on a white stone.
The Lamb has His Book of Life with your name in it.
I think the Name the Lamb has for you in the Book.
is the same name the Lamb gives you from the Book.
This is NOT the same name as you are known by here on Earth.
So a person may well have a public name in heaven known to all
and a private name just between him and the lamb.
But, we understand that at this point this is mere speculation.
I agree here. The point is that it is the new name that is written in the book of life. Perhaps we are getting hung up on the specific name. Whether in the case of Saul/Paul if the specific new name is "Paul" that is written in the BoL, we cannot know for sure.
In my mind the BoL is highly symbolic - spiritual. I don't believe it is a literal book written with literal ink. It is most likely representing Christ Himself. See "The book of
the life of the lamb".
Back to Saul/Paul: I was reading some scholar's thoughts on why he had two names.
Saul was a Hebrew name, and Paul was possibly his Roman name. It is possibly he had both names. He may have changed which name he used to identify more with the Romans.
It could also possibly signify a change in nature (which obviously he did have a change of nature).
The name Saul has meanings of 'desired', 'great', 'tall' - it references King Saul.
The name Paul has meanings of 'little' or 'humility'.
So Saul changed from being great to being humble (Paul).
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'? I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name
is is probably irrelevant.
The bible is highly symbolic with many layers. The physical is representing what happens in the spiritual. So the fact that Saul/Paul had 2 names in the physical seems to me to be a type/shadow for the spiritual.
The point is Saul/Paul got a new name - his new name is in the BoL, his old name is not. Is the individual Saul/Paul not saved because his carnal name is not in the BoL? No of course not. The carnal nature was destroyed. That is how he was saved.
So how does this relate to names being blotted out? I'm not exactly sure at this point. Perhaps it is the carnal nature that is blotted out. Saul was blotted out. But Paul (or whatever his new name is) was in the BoL.
Quote from: Hansc on February 12, 2011, 08:33:28 AM
Babies that are aborted do not have 'earthly" names because they were never born or named. Yet their name is still in the Book.
Why do you say aborted babies are in the BoL? If that was true, then traditional belief systems (ie. eternal hell) should be rejoicing over the millions of babies that are saved through abortions every year. But of course that runs contrary to the reality of the "pro-life vs. pro-choice" debate. The unsaid message here is its better that babies live and possibly end up going to hell than be aborted... does that really make sense? Ironically under this system "pro-life" really means "pro-choice": babies deserve to live so they can "choose" heaven/hell instead of being aborted and automatically going to heaven. Of course this whole notion is horrible and borders on the absurd. Abortion is a difficult/hotbed issue and I don't want to get into that here. Anyways this point is one of the giant failings of ET theology IMHO: babies are automatically saved -> this leads to some pretty drastic conclusions if you think about it (ie. Andrew Yates, abortions save millions, etc).
Regardless, if we consider the UR perspective... why would babies be automatically in the BoL? Who are those in the BoL? If they are the elect - then they are the ones who are destined to reign with Christ: kings, priests, judges, and ministers. What is the necessary trait for these positions as kings, priests, judges, and ministers? MATURITY. To be more specific:
spiritual maturity.
We start as babes in Christ with the milk of the word and then go onto more mature matters: the meat of the word. We are all expected to mature.
So what would an immature baby - with no spiritual knowledge - do in the Kingdom? Babies judging matters? Babies ministering? Now I'm not saying some kids can't make some good judgments. But babies? There are some basic things that everyone has to learn. I don't think there are going to be a bunch of eternal babies in heaven. They will have to grow and mature somehow.
Everyone will be salted with fire. Everyone will be judged. Everyone will be brought to a full knowledge of the truth - full maturity. IMHO this is what the lake of fire is about. And yes, even babies who die will have to still grow and mature (spiritually at least) - and endure trials of fire just as we all do - because that is how we mature.
Now I'm not saying that the babies 'new name' is not in the BoL. But I can't see them coming into the Kingdom without some maturation process. The new name is associated with the new mature creation. There is this stigma that the lake of fire is 'bad' and babies would never go into it. But that is a carnal view. (The lake of fire is not a physical fire/torture chamber). But if the lake of fire is the divine testing/purification (ie. refinement) process - then it makes sense to me that babies would need to go through it. If babies have a carnal nature (and they do) - then that carnality has to be removed, just like it does in everyone else.
I hope that made sense. I'm not saying this is all 100% correct. These are just some thoughts I have on the matter. Its not as straight forward to just say all babies are in the BoL.
I just reread my previous post and realize it probably is not going to make sense to some people.
Perhaps this will help explain my perspective. IMHO:
1. Not everyone enters the Kingdom reign
2. Those in the Kingdom reign are the Kings, Judges, Priests, and Ministers spoken of
3. They will be positions of authority and responsibility - and LOVE
4. They are represented (symbolically) by those in the book of life - who are not blotted out - who are not thrown into the Lake of Fire.
5. Who will they be judging, ministering, and preaching to? Everyone else.
6. Even though some do not reign with Christ in His Kingdom - they are still saved.
7. That is the point of His Kingdom.
8. This could be all symbolized by the lake of fire.
Quote from: LegomanIf they are the elect - then they are the ones who are destined to reign with Christ: kings, priests, judges, and ministers. What is the necessary trait for these positions as kings, priests, judges, and ministers? MATURITY. To be more specific: spiritual maturity.
:thumbsup:
So that this prophecy might be fullfilled..
Isaiah 9:6
...
and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
--Isa 9
Quote from: legoman on February 13, 2011, 05:58:03 AM
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'? I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant. It's just that we, at least I, don't understand most of it.
But I do have some info about a white stone. I see no link to BoL but perhaps others do.
A few days after the Jewish New year 10 Tishri/September it's Atonement Day.
On that day the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies with a little bag that had 2 stones in it. Black and white.
After the stone was drawn a voice (from God) was heard or the priest received a vision. I don't remember but I think a voice.
It was a prediction for the coming year. A black stone always was a negative year. The white stone was a year that God smiled upon His people.
FYI the year Jesus died was a black stone year and the prophesy was "one man must die for the nation"
Legoman
QuoteOld nature = physical, carnal
New nature = spiritual, reborn in Christ
The old nature is not saved. It is destroyed. It is replaced with the new nature.
Works for me, and I have no problem with God using a name change as a sign marker that the old nature has passed away and a person is a new creature in Christ.
Naturally, this is just as an object lesson for us and we are not all called to take on a new name here when we get saved.
QuotePerhaps it is the carnal nature that is blotted out.
I don't think that works.
Because the Scriptures involving the Book of Life indicate that SOME will be blotted out and SOME will not be blotted out.
Since ALL start out with a carnal nature and IF the carnal nature is what is blotted out then it would have to indicate that ALL will be blotted out.
QuoteI don't believe it is a literal book written with literal ink. It is most likely representing Christ Himself.
I don't see why it cant be both, a literal Book of all that are to be born on Earth and once the blotting is complete a representation of all that are in Christ.
Just like in sports, one can be on the team after the final cut and also on the team roster at the same time.
QuoteWhy do you say aborted babies are in the BoL?
Because it makes more sense to me than saying babies are NOT in the Book of Life.
QuoteIf that was true, then traditional belief systems (ie. eternal hell) should be rejoicing over the millions of babies that are saved
Murdering the innocent is still a sin, regardless of the destination of the victim. Wrong to rejoice over sin.
Quotethis point is one of the giant failings of ET theology IMHO: babies are automatically saved -> this leads to some pretty drastic conclusions
As opposed to babies are automatically lost?
Quotewhy would babies be automatically in the BoL?
Because Life begins at conception. When Life begins, it is recorded in the Book of Life. In a way, you could look at the Book of Life as the Book of Life's conception. When you are given life, you are recorded in the Book of Life as being given Life. In a way, it functions like a Book of Conception.
Think about it, it actually makes a lot of sense.
Life begins at conception.
At conception you are given Life.
When you are given Life
You are recorded in the Book of Life as being given life.
QuoteThere are some basic things that everyone has to learn. I don't think there are going to be a bunch of eternal babies in heaven. They will have to grow and mature somehow.
I'm sure God can manage with some baby trainer angels.
QuoteIf babies have a carnal nature (and they do) - then that carnality has to be removed, just like it does in everyone else.
Death does a pretty good job of leaving the carnal husk behind.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 13, 2011, 08:35:52 AM
Quote from: legoman on February 13, 2011, 05:58:03 AM
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'? I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant.
Yes, but this is what I meant:
Irrelevant for the purposes of understanding the point that it is the new name that is written in the BoL.
Carry on...
Quote
It's just that we, at least I, don't understand most of it.
But I do have some info about a white stone. I see no link to BoL but perhaps others do.
A few days after the Jewish New year 10 Tishri/September it's Atonement Day.
On that day the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies with a little bag that had 2 stones in it. Black and white.
After the stone was drawn a voice (from God) was heard or the priest received a vision. I don't remember but I think a voice.
It was a prediction for the coming year. A black stone always was a negative year. The white stone was a year that God smiled upon His people.
FYI the year Jesus died was a black stone year and the prophesy was "one man must die for the nation"
Quote from: legoman on February 13, 2011, 02:10:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 13, 2011, 08:35:52 AM
Quote from: legoman on February 13, 2011, 05:58:03 AM
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'? I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant.
Yes, but this is what I meant:
Irrelevant for the purposes of understanding the point that it is the new name that is written in the BoL.
Unless you have a perfect understanding of a certain thing you can't make any claims about. Sometimes suddenly someone posts a verse in a totally unrelated thread and it seems to be a key for a thread that died long ago.
Why a white stone? Why not purple or black? Why a stone instead of a book or golden ring?
All relevant questions I think. Things are often unlocked by (hidden) details.
Man you guys are up late! European time zone or night owl? (whitewings is in Europe AFAIK...)
Quote from: Hansc on February 13, 2011, 11:58:18 AM
Legoman
QuoteOld nature = physical, carnal
New nature = spiritual, reborn in Christ
The old nature is not saved. It is destroyed. It is replaced with the new nature.
Works for me, and I have no problem with God using a name change as a sign marker that the old nature has passed away and a person is a new creature in Christ.
Naturally, this is just as an object lesson for us and we are not all called to take on a new name here when we get saved.
QuotePerhaps it is the carnal nature that is blotted out.
I don't think that works.
Because the Scriptures involving the Book of Life indicate that SOME will be blotted out and SOME will not be blotted out.
Since ALL start out with a carnal nature and IF the carnal nature is what is blotted out then it would have to indicate that ALL will be blotted out.
I think it can work if we understand that much of scripture is speaking of one of our two natures. Perhaps we should post all the scripture that speaks of "blotting out of the book". But for instance:
Exodus 32:33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
Ok this is fine until you realize we are all sinners and have all sinned against God. So we will all be blotted out of His book? (assuming this is even talking about the BoL). :dontknow:
Quote
QuoteI don't believe it is a literal book written with literal ink. It is most likely representing Christ Himself.
I don't see why it cant be both, a literal Book of all that are to be born on Earth and once the blotting is complete a representation of all that are in Christ.
Just like in sports, one can be on the team after the final cut and also on the team roster at the same time.
That may be possible.
Quote
QuoteWhy do you say aborted babies are in the BoL?
Because it makes more sense to me than saying babies are NOT in the Book of Life.
QuoteIf that was true, then traditional belief systems (ie. eternal hell) should be rejoicing over the millions of babies that are saved
Murdering the innocent is still a sin, regardless of the destination of the victim. Wrong to rejoice over sin.
Quotethis point is one of the giant failings of ET theology IMHO: babies are automatically saved -> this leads to some pretty drastic conclusions
As opposed to babies are automatically lost?
But you are equating "into the lake of fire" with "automatically lost". We all start off lost, agreed? Even babies. No one is righteous. Jesus came to save the lost. All are lost. Maybe you don't agree here.
If babies are automatically saved, but can go to eternal hell later, then the obvious conclusion is that killing babies is good even though murder is wrong. This is a giant contradiction. The angels rejoice over one soul saved -> so they are rejoicing over all the babies being aborted? :dontknow:
From the eternal torment perspective it makes no sense that babies would go into the LoF, because no one (well almost no one) thinks babies deserve to be eternally punished.
But we are on a UR forum (I realize you probably don't believe in UR). Lets look at it from that context. The LoF is not for endless torture and torment. The LoF is for refinement and spiritual growth into maturity. They are thrown into the LoF
in the presence of the lamb. Then it makes perfect sense that babies would go into it.
Quote
Quotewhy would babies be automatically in the BoL?
Because Life begins at conception. When Life begins, it is recorded in the Book of Life. In a way, you could look at the Book of Life as the Book of Life's conception. When you are given life, you are recorded in the Book of Life as being given Life. In a way, it functions like a Book of Conception.
Think about it, it actually makes a lot of sense.
Life begins at conception.
At conception you are given Life.
When you are given Life
You are recorded in the Book of Life as being given life.
For me it is not as simple because 'life' has many meanings in scripture. Physically alive, spiritually alive, eonian life, knowing God. None are righteous, not even babies.
God has chosen the elect from before the foundation of the world - why the need to add everyone to the BoL and then blot people out, since God already knows the end from the beginning? Its not like God had to wait and see who would stay in the BoL. God already knew because He chose. IMHO it is possible the BoL verses referring to blotting out may be symbolic - explaining things from our human perspective in time. But in reality they were already blotted out from the beginning. But this is just an interpretation from the view that God is outside of time and already knows who is in the BoL and who is in the LoF. Just some ideas I have considered, I'm not really 100% sure here. This is why we discuss. :thumbsup:
Quote
QuoteThere are some basic things that everyone has to learn. I don't think there are going to be a bunch of eternal babies in heaven. They will have to grow and mature somehow.
I'm sure God can manage with some baby trainer angels.
Agreed.
QuoteQuoteIf babies have a carnal nature (and they do) - then that carnality has to be removed, just like it does in everyone else.
Death does a pretty good job of leaving the carnal husk behind.
Agreed.
Its just a question of how that training is described. "baby trainer angels" or lake of fire. Possibly the same thing in my books.
Its not just babies that will have to undergo training on the other side. Most of humanity will - those in the LoF.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 13, 2011, 02:23:28 PM
Quote from: legoman on February 13, 2011, 02:10:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 13, 2011, 08:35:52 AM
Quote from: legoman on February 13, 2011, 05:58:03 AM
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'? I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant.
Yes, but this is what I meant:
Irrelevant for the purposes of understanding the point that it is the new name that is written in the BoL.
Unless you have a perfect understanding of a certain thing you can't make any claims about. Sometimes suddenly someone posts a verse in a totally unrelated thread and it seems to be a key for a thread that died long ago.
Why a white stone? Why not purple or black? Why a stone instead of a book or golden ring?
All relevant questions I think. Things are often unlocked by (hidden) details.
WW - I think something was lost in the translation there. Yes it is very relevant for full understanding. But not the point at hand.
I get what you are saying. Nevermind...
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 13, 2011, 08:35:52 AM
Quote from: legoman on February 13, 2011, 05:58:03 AM
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'? I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant. It's just that we, at least I, don't understand most of it.
But I do have some info about a white stone. I see no link to BoL but perhaps others do.
A few days after the Jewish New year 10 Tishri/September it's Atonement Day.
On that day the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies with a little bag that had 2 stones in it. Black and white.
After the stone was drawn a voice (from God) was heard or the priest received a vision. I don't remember but I think a voice.
It was a prediction for the coming year. A black stone always was a negative year. The white stone was a year that God smiled upon His people.
FYI the year Jesus died was a black stone year and the prophesy was "one man must die for the nation"
oh my goodness. :mshock:
I've always wondered where the high priest Caiaphas got that information, especially since he didn't seem to understand what it meant himself.
47Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51And this spake he not of himself:
but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
--John 11
The white stone then, makes perfect sense, as Jesus is our high priest. Isn't the day of atonement coincident with the feast of tabernacles?
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
unto them that look for him--those in the BoL waiting for their High Priest Jesus to come out of the holy of Holies on the day of atonement.
I agree lego, we're born lost, with the Adamic nature. I believe that's scriptural, and that there's no gospel of innocence in the scriptures, no "age of accountability". I believe that's an orthodox invention. Scripturally, all must come through the Messiah.
I personally doubt anyone has an absolutely complete understanding of the Book of Life, as it appears every possible detail isn't filled in for us in the scriptures. There's MUCH MORE to God's PLAN, more than we often see. He's given us many strong promises of the eventual salvation of all when God's righteousness and glory fills the earth. I think it's very possible we don't have each and every detail, but I believe the "bones"/outline is there to be known, and the final outcome revealed, when we're given ears to hear and eyes to see. Personally, I'm just now seeing some of it myself, and I know there's still MUCH that needs revealed to me.
This is just SOME of the OT. NT to come. :bigGrin:
GENESIS
12:1-3 All the families on earth will be blessed..
18:18 all the nations of the earth will be blessed
28:14 all the families of the earth will be blessed
NUMBERS
16:22 the God of the spirits of all flesh
I KINGS
8:43 all the people of the earth will come to know and fear you, just as your own people Israel do.
PSALMS
46:10 I will be honored by every nation. I will be honored throughout the world."
65:2 O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come.
86:9 All the nations you made will come and bow before you, Lord; they will praise your holy name.
138:4 O Jehovah, all kings of earth confess Thee, When they have heard the sayings of Thy mouth.
ISAIAH
11:9 Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for as the waters fill the sea, so the earth will be filled with people who know the LORD.
52:10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.
52:15 Kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.
61:11 or as the earth brings forth its bud, and as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord Yahweh will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, to a nation that was not called by my name.
66:18 it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
66:23 all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.
LAMENTATIONS
3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: but though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
NLT- For no one is abandoned by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he also shows compassion because of the greatness of his unfailing love.
DANIEL
7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
7:27 ..the Most High. His kingdom will last forever, and all rulers will serve and obey him."
MICAH
4:1-5 ..he will teach us his ways,
and we will walk in his paths."
For the LORD's teaching will go out from Zion;
his word will go out from Jerusalem.
3The LORD will mediate between peoples
and will settle disputes between strong nations far away.
They will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer fight against nation,
nor train for war anymore.
4Everyone will live in peace and prosperity,
enjoying their own grapevines and fig trees,
for there will be nothing to fear.
HABAKKUK
2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea
HAGGAI
2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
In the NT, there's about 30 scrips I hope to list in the next day or 2. Only part of it is NO MORE CRYING, PAIN, DEATH, TEARS, which IMO = NO ETERNAL TORTURE OR SEPARATION FROM GOD. The outline, outcome, and promises are there. I/we may not know every detail or answer to every possible question, but IMO, those things cannot co-exist. :2c:
For Jesus Christ, the Son of God, does not waver between "Yes" and "No." He is the one whom Silas, Timothy, and I preached to you, and as God's ultimate "Yes," he always does what he says. For all of God's promises have been fulfilled in Christ with a resounding "Yes!" And through Christ, our "Amen" (which means "Yes") ascends to God for his glory.
It is God who enables us, along with you, to stand firm for Christ. He has commissioned us, and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us. II Cor. 1:19-21
:2c:
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. .....
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:14-15)
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
(Rom 2:5-8)
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:12-16)
"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(Mat 25:40-46)
In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives. The judgment of God is the dividing of God....measuring our lives.... with the measure you give so will you be measured, thats why love covers a multitude of sins
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)
His eyes are as flames of fire, the fire that penetrates the soul and heart of man and consumes every adversary to love, for our God is a consuming fire, and our God is love.
Those who 'believe'(enter into and walk in fellowship with the love of God, for everyone who loves is born of God) have passed from death into life.
Blessed are those who overcome(endure to the end)- I will not blot their name out of the book of life. In other words, those who abide in the love of God need not fear the second death, they have passed from death unto life, their names are written in the book of life( the Lord knows them that are His)
Those who are not written into the book of life (all who are united with the Lamb are in the book of life, recorded in the heart of God) are headed for the second death, aionian kolassis, the lake of fire. They are not written in the book of life because , "the light shined in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not/ He was the life and the life was the light of men". Life and light and love are one. Darkness, hatred and death are one.
"THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SITTING IN DARKNESS SAW A GREAT LIGHT, AND THOSE WHO WERE SITTING IN THE LAND AND SHADOW OF DEATH, UPON THEM A LIGHT DAWNED."
(Mat 4:16)
Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
(2Co 4:1-6)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
(Joh 3:16-21)
The ones who do not believe have been judged already. They are walking in the valley of the shadow of death. On the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts, the sharp two edged sword of His mouth will divide the living from the dead, and the dead will be cast into death until they live, For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.
Quote from: jabcat on February 13, 2011, 09:11:19 PMand that there's no gospel of innocence in the scriptures, no "age of accountability". I believe that's an orthodox invention.
It would mean an abortion clinic has a higher success rate than Jesus.
WW, it really is something all the things many of us (especially those of us who've been "in church" all our life) take as being "facts", and continue building our doctrines on them. Done it many times, still do. :mblush: Much to re-think.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2011, 07:25:34 AM
:2c:
In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives. The judgment of God is the dividing of God....measuring our lives.... with the measure you give so will you be measured, thats why love covers a multitude of sins
That's something to think about, WW.
Interesting take on it.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2011, 07:25:34 AM
Those who 'believe'(enter into and walk in fellowship with the love of God, for everyone who loves is born of God) have passed from death into life.
Blessed are those who overcome(endure to the end)- I will not blot their name out of the book of life. In other words, those who abide in the love of God need not fear the second death, they have passed from death unto life, their names are written in the book of life( the Lord knows them that are His)
Those who are not written into the book of life (all who are united with the Lamb are in the book of life, recorded in the heart of God) are headed for the second death, aionian kolassis, the lake of fire. They are not written in the book of life because , "the light shined in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not/ He was the life and the life was the light of men". Life and light and love are one. Darkness, hatred and death are one.
The ones who do not believe have been judged already. They are walking in the valley of the shadow of death. On the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts, the sharp two edged sword of His mouth will divide the living from the dead, and the dead will be cast into death until they live, For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.
Yes, amen!
Quote
Those who 'believe'(enter into and walk in fellowship with the love of God, for everyone who loves is born of God) have passed from death into life.
Blessed are those who overcome(endure to the end)- I will not blot their name out of the book of life. In other words, those who abide in the love of God need not fear the second death, they have passed from death unto life, their names are written in the book of life( the Lord knows them that are His)
Those who are not written into the book of life (all who are united with the Lamb are in the book of life, recorded in the heart of God) are headed for the second death, aionian kolassis, the lake of fire. They are not written in the book of life because , "the light shined in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not/ He was the life and the life was the light of men". Life and light and love are one. Darkness, hatred and death are one.
The ones who do not believe have been judged already. They are walking in the valley of the shadow of death. On the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts, the sharp two edged sword of His mouth will divide the living from the dead, and the dead will be cast into death until they live, For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.
This feels right. Like a satisfying meal sort of right, a good kind of right.
Hmmn. It brings to mind and idea that the Book of Life is a little bit like a record of those who have graduated (overcome), while the rest have yet to pass the tests necessary to move to their higher career as people of God in God's kingdom.
It would seem to me that it is important for God's creation to overcome evil, and be immune to it - by having his righteousness forged in them, so that evil, death, sin, separation from him, and otherwise bad stuff should never be able to return.
"Once you go through chicken pox, you never deal get it again."
HansC said
QuoteIn a way, it functions like a Book of Conception.
Think about it, it actually makes a lot of sense.
Life begins at conception.
At conception you are given Life.
When you are given Life
You are recorded in the Book of Life as being given life.
Actually Hans, it doesn't make that much sense, since no one else pointed it out, I thought I would.
If ALL the names are written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world and then there is only blotting, you cant have names entered at conception because that would entail an ongoing process of adding in as babies are conceived over time.
I thought you said that the Bible teaches that no names are entered after the foundation of the world.
You cant have it both ways. Think about it.
Ok, you have a point, the Bible does teach that names are in there prior to conception, and actually prior to the foundation of the Earth.
So when it was written, before the foundation of the Earth, it contained ALL the names of ALL the people who were ever to be born into the World.
Those who receive Christ remain in the Book and those who reject Christ eventually are blotted out.
Legoman said
QuoteGod has chosen the elect from before the foundation of the world - .
Sounds like there is a strong Calvinist influence in your thinking. I'm not going to go into the flaws in the Calvinist doctrine of election here, but just want to say that I think Calvin got it wrong.
Quotewhy the need to add everyone to the BoL and then blot people out, since God already knows the end from the beginning?
Right, there is absolutely no need to add anyone to the Book, since all start off in the Book.
QuoteIts not like God had to wait and see who would stay in the BoL
True, He knows the choices that people will make before they make them, but He couldn't just jump to the consequences of their choices, just because He knew what they would be without actually allowing them to make the choice.
He knows what actions people will take, but still needs to give people the space to actually take the action, before He can judge the action.
Quote from: Lefein on February 14, 2011, 08:46:39 AM
Quote
Those who 'believe'(enter into and walk in fellowship with the love of God, for everyone who loves is born of God) have passed from death into life.
Blessed are those who overcome(endure to the end)- I will not blot their name out of the book of life. In other words, those who abide in the love of God need not fear the second death, they have passed from death unto life, their names are written in the book of life( the Lord knows them that are His)
Those who are not written into the book of life (all who are united with the Lamb are in the book of life, recorded in the heart of God) are headed for the second death, aionian kolassis, the lake of fire. They are not written in the book of life because , "the light shined in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not/ He was the life and the life was the light of men". Life and light and love are one. Darkness, hatred and death are one.
The ones who do not believe have been judged already. They are walking in the valley of the shadow of death. On the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts, the sharp two edged sword of His mouth will divide the living from the dead, and the dead will be cast into death until they live, For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.
This feels right. Like a satisfying meal sort of right, a good kind of right.
Hmmn. It brings to mind and idea that the Book of Life is a little bit like a record of those who have graduated (overcome), while the rest have yet to pass the tests necessary to move to their higher career as people of God in God's kingdom.
It would seem to me that it is important for God's creation to overcome evil, and be immune to it - by having his righteousness forged in them, so that evil, death, sin, separation from him, and otherwise bad stuff should never be able to return.
"Once you go through chicken pox, you never deal get it again."
I think we are called to righteousness yet have no ability within ourselves to be righteous. Interesting. Righteousness is an effect not an act. Once a zygote is implanted into it's mother's womb it either grows or dies. It's growth is an effect of a process. In the same way, we are implanted into the Kingdom by no choice of our own. We are fed and we grow. We are seen as righteous as we grow in righteousness. With relationship comes love and maturity which leads to life and growth. We overcome evil as a process of maturity through relationship. Seek relationship with Christ and righteousness will be the result.
Quote from: Hansc on February 14, 2011, 09:43:25 AMSounds like there is a strong Calvinist influence in your thinking. I'm not going to go into the flaws in the Calvinist doctrine of election here, but just want to say that I think Calvin got it wrong.
I'm not defending the Calvinist doctrine because like you I believe they are wrong; but there is an elect in the Bible. But that elect isn't about eternal heaven or hell.
Quote from: HancSounds like there is a strong Calvinist influence in your thinking. I'm not going to go into the flaws in the Calvinist doctrine of election here, but just want to say that I think Calvin got it wrong.
Calvin says only the elect will choose Jesus, thus only the elect are saved. You say only those who choose Jesus in this life are saved [ who must also fit the definition of elect]. What's the difference? Both you and Calvin condemn most of humanity to an eternity of fire and pain. Thus, you have more in common than not. Whether man picks God or God picks man, most men will be either annihilated or tortured for eternity. It seems to me that both you and Calvin would have the same people being saved but for different reasons.
You cannot deny election, Hans, --it is all over the Bible.
Let's look at Calvinism, and you tell me where he got it wrong. Which scriptures did he misinterpret or leave out that could change everything? Does he know the heart of God?
http://calvinistcorner.com/tulipTotal Depravity:Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man's heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man's true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God's will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election:God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for 'many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace:When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man's will, but by God's.
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus' return.
Quote from: Molly on February 13, 2011, 05:31:17 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 13, 2011, 08:35:52 AM
Quote from: legoman on February 13, 2011, 05:58:03 AM
Now is this the actual name that is written on the 'white stone'? I don't know - but I believe the white stone is also highly symbolic, so questioning exactly what Paul's new name is is probably irrelevant.
Nothing is irrelevant. It's just that we, at least I, don't understand most of it.
But I do have some info about a white stone. I see no link to BoL but perhaps others do.
A few days after the Jewish New year 10 Tishri/September it's Atonement Day.
On that day the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies with a little bag that had 2 stones in it. Black and white.
After the stone was drawn a voice (from God) was heard or the priest received a vision. I don't remember but I think a voice.
It was a prediction for the coming year. A black stone always was a negative year. The white stone was a year that God smiled upon His people.
FYI the year Jesus died was a black stone year and the prophesy was "one man must die for the nation"
oh my goodness. :mshock:
I've always wondered where the high priest Caiaphas got that information, especially since he didn't seem to understand what it meant himself.
47Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
--John 11
The white stone then, makes perfect sense, as Jesus is our high priest. Isn't the day of atonement coincident with the feast of tabernacles?
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
unto them that look for him--those in the BoL waiting for their High Priest Jesus to come out of the holy of Holies on the day of atonement.
Ah this is the scripture that I was refering to that shows that not all the pharisses are evil or are hard hearted, far from God. There is also another scripture in the book of acts where the high priest I think prophecies over Paul after his Damascus conversion.
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2011, 07:43:08 AM
In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives.
Books are opened and an other Book was opened.
Book = Jesus -> Note that Book/Scroll is written with a captial B/S (divinity)
Books = mankind
That makes perfect sense in combination with the translation "scroll of His life"
So the verse states:
10 biljon books describing the life of everyone ever lived are opened.
Plus 1 book openend that decribes the life of Jesus.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 14, 2011, 04:19:33 PM
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2011, 07:43:08 AM
In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives.
Books are opened and an other Book was opened.
Book = Jesus -> Note that Book/Scroll is written with a captial B/S (divinity)
Books = mankind
That makes perfect sense in combination with the translation "scroll of His life"
So the verse states:
10 biljon books describing the life of everyone ever lived are opened.
Plus 1 book openend that decribes the life of Jesus.
As someone said, [maybe you lol]
Revelation 13:8
... the book of life of the Lamb...Here's a question. Jesus when talking to the Pharisees gives a list of those righteous who were slain without cause by the predecessors of the Pharisees.
He starts with 'the righteous Abel" and comes up to the present day. Then he says to the Pharisees, this [innocent] blood will be on your hands. Are these the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? [I would include Adam in that list myself. Jesus does later by saying he is the Alpha, the beginning.] Just as those who are identified with Christ in these times are innocents led to the slaughter all day long?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
--Mat 23
Quote from: Molly on February 14, 2011, 04:36:29 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 14, 2011, 04:19:33 PM
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2011, 07:43:08 AM
In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives.
Books are opened and an other Book was opened.
Book = Jesus -> Note that Book/Scroll is written with a captial B/S (divinity)
Books = mankind
That makes perfect sense in combination with the translation "scroll of His life"
So the verse states:
10 biljon books describing the life of everyone ever lived are opened.
Plus 1 book openend that decribes the life of Jesus.
As someone said, [maybe you lol]
I did. But now I say the
other books are you, me, everyone.
QuoteRevelation 13:8
... the book of life of the Lamb...
And the book of Molly
Quote from: Molly on February 14, 2011, 02:43:04 PM
You cannot deny election, Hans, --it is all over the Bible.
Let's look at Calvinism, and you tell me where he got it wrong. Which scriptures did he misinterpret or leave out that could change everything?
IMO, although I'm not a Calvinist (those terms, Calvinism, Arminianism, etc. can be all too easy to reach for in an attempt to label and/or discredit someone) I still believe he got many things right (minus eternal torment of most of humanity). If only he'd have been able to see God's plan to ultimately reconcile His creation. :( But really, it all happens for God's ultimate purpose. I'm pretty sure He's got it figured out. :rolleye:
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2011, 09:03:00 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 14, 2011, 02:43:04 PM
You cannot deny election, Hans, --it is all over the Bible.
Let's look at Calvinism, and you tell me where he got it wrong. Which scriptures did he misinterpret or leave out that could change everything?
IMO, although I'm not a Calvinist (those terms, Calvinism, Arminianism, etc. can be all too easy to reach for in an attempt to label and/or discredit someone) I still believe he got many things right (minus eternal torment of most of humanity). If only he'd have been able to see God's plan to ultimately reconcile His creation. :( But really, it all happens for God's ultimate purpose. I'm pretty sure He's got it figured out. :rolleye:
Minus eternal hell, I don't see much wrong with Calvinist thinking. Being a "Calvinist thinker" almost seems to carry with it a stigma. I do believe we were called, predestined, elected and all by no choice of our own. This only becomes an issue when we say those who are not elected are going to burn in eternal hell fire.
Yeah, Nathan, I agree. As I was in some sort of mainstream Christianity all my life until the past few years when God dragged me away, I believe I have some insight into this. Many people who don't identify as being "Reformed"/Calvinist (thankfully) just can't accept that God would only choose a few to save, while predestining the vast majority of humanity to eternal torment - all through no choice of their own. So I believe they (I did) twist the scriptures to say "well, that must really mean foreknowledge - God knows who will choose Him". The problems with that, IMO, are at least three-fold; 1) pre-destination and the elect are clear Biblical teachings, 2) the belief in eternal torment makes God's clear declarations of election of the ecclesia "unpalatable" to the point of denial, and 3) a need to see the ultimate reconciliation of all, so as to be able to see all scriptures reconcile with each other (still "working on it" :happygrin:, things I still struggle with, for sure).
He's the Good Shepherd. 99 is not enough. :2c:
Molly,
In response to my statement "
I'm not going to go into . . . Calvinist doctrine of election here,"
You ask: "Let's look at Calvinism, and you tell me where he got it wrong. "
Primarily because I don't have the time, I cant get into a dissection of Calvinism. To this you ask me to comment on ALL five primary points of Calvinism. Each of the five can have a HUGE thread of it's own. Let's just say that I believe that God is able to give people a free choice and that Calvin does not.
Molly
QuoteYou cannot deny election, Hans, --it is all over the Bible.
I don't.
Jabcat said
Quote1) pre-destination and the elect are clear Biblical teachings,
While this is true on the surface, the problem comes when a person such as Calvin defines these terms. By redefining terms a person can use the same word, but the underlying definition by being vastly different creates a different understanding.
Yes those terms are in there, but many people who believe that Calvin got a lot right are still enchained by Calvin's lexicon.
Quote from: HansLet's just say that I believe that God is able to give people a free choice and that Calvin does not.
Ok, that's fair. Even though we are not allowed to debate free will here, I would say that you believe everyone starts in the book of life and then are blotted out when they do not accept Christ, whereas Calvin says only the elect [those who will accept Christ because they are predestined to] are in the BoL.
Calvin has lots of predestination verses to support his side, and I suppose you have some verses too, but you both end up with the same people, by definition, being saved, that is, the elect who choose Christ.
Therefore, for all practical purposes, you and Calvin agree, don't you?
Does it really matter whether those who choose Christ are predestined or have a choice? The end result is the same. If it makes a difference to you, tell me how.
I really am limited for time, but since Calvin's thinking has so often come up, especially his definitions of 'election' and predestination, I'd thought I'd share a short portion of an interaction I had with a friend.
"Predestination is based almost exclusively on a poor translation of a Greek word.
In English we think that predestined means "it has been decided, and there is nothing we can do about it." But that is NOT what the Greek word means.
It really helps to know that the Greek word translated "predestined" means "planned in advance" (as in, God has a purpose for your life), but does NOT imply that what has been "planned in advance" WILL happen. It may happen, it may not. And whether or not it does is a function of free will. We CAN miss God's plan for our lives.
If you want to find God's purpose for your life, you are wanting to find out what He predestined for you. If you reject Him, you MISS what He predestined for you.
I don't think finding God's purpose for your life, and voluntarily trying very hard to fulfill that purpose is all that controversial.
Once you understand what it actually means, free will and predestination are not mutually exclusive ideas, thus there really isn't anything to argue about.
The word translated "predestined" is prooridzo. It occurs six times in the NT (Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29, 30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5, 11).
It literally means "to mark out a boundary in advance," and in practical meaning, that is "to plan in advance." It is derived from a verb that means "to mark out a boundary," from which we get our word "horizon" (as in, the horizon is the "boundary" or "limit" of how far we can see). The idea of "marking a boundary" has the meaning of "planning" in everyday language from the idea that a plan is something that metaphorically "draws a boundary around, or sets the limits of" our future actions.
The problem is that in ENGLISH, predestined means that what has been planned in advance WILL HAPPEN. There is nothing we can do about it. If God predestines something, it WILL happen.
That is NOT what this Greek word means.
It contains no inherent concept that the plan or boundaries that are drawn in advance WILL happen. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. God has made a plan for our lives, WAY in advance of when we were even born. We can fulfil that plan, or we can reject God, and miss that plan.
Because of the "predestination" versus "free will" argument, most people think the two are contradictory (if one is true, the other cannot be true).
The irony is that "free will" and "predestination" go hand in hand. When God "predestined" us to be conformed to the image of His Son, we are told that He has made a wonderful plan for our lives to be LIKE His Son. We have the free will to accept or reject that plan.
So all "predestined" means is "to plan in advance."
The point is that Yes, predestination and election are all over the Bible. But Calvin defines the term as "it MUST happen and you have NO Choice" This defaults more into a doctrine of philosophical pre-determinism rather than true Biblical predestination. The problem is that many still accept Calvin's definition of various terms, not realizing that Calvin got some of his keys definitions wrong.
So, Yes, to true Biblical predestination.
NO, to Calvin's pre-determinism, falsely labeled as predestination.
Molly
QuoteTherefore, for all practical purposes, you and Calvin agree, don't you?
No, without going into the TULIP, I disagree with Calvin on ALL five points of his interpretation. I think that Calvin has done a lot of damage to a true understanding of the Bible. Even many people, like you, who are NOT Calvinists STILL go by his mistaken definitions.
I cant get into it here, for times sake, but I did post a short take on how I think Calvin messed up on predestination and consequently election.
Quote from: Hanspoint is that Yes, predestination and election are all over the Bible. But Calvin defines the term as "it MUST happen and you have NO Choice" This defaults more into a doctrine of philosophical pre-determinism rather than true Biblical predestination. The problem is that many still accept Calvin's definition of various terms, not realizing that Calvin got some of his keys definitions wrong.
So you are saying that when God predestines something to happen, it doesn't guarantee it will happen? That we are somehow misunderstanding that word?
Let's look at some of the verses.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did
predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did
predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
--Rom 8
Here's two verses with that word in it.
"predestinate"G4309
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: -
determine before, ordain, predestinate.Let's look at the English definition of that word.
"predestinate"predestine: foreordain by divine will or decree
foreordained: established or prearranged
unalterablySo, your position, Hans, is that what God has established and foreordained unalterably by divine will can be altered by man?
I'd like to quickly interject. I DO believe the scriptures teach it's necessary to have personal faith, and place that faith in Jesus as Savior for salvation. I just also believe the scriptures teach that faith is not ours, it's given to us by God, to whom and when HE chooses. We DO need to get saved, but it's Jesus that does the saving - not our will, effort, faith, etc. He gives us the ability to come to Him - to even breathe, for that matter. I've seen people say Saul/Paul chose Jesus. Really?
In Him we live and move and have our being.
God bless.
"...the greatest of these is love". :HeartThrob:
I've seen people say Saul/Paul chose Jesus. Really?
Personally I believe PAUL is The Type of Us ALL[ having ones EYES opened}
Blessings :icon_flower:
Oh, I believe Paul chose Jesus all right . . .the question is though "which" Jesus did he choose? Did he choose the one whom the Father reveals to the hearts of men? Or did he choose the one that is portrayed by flesh and blood? I believe it to be both . . .Saul chose the image and Paul after a bit of donkey dumping . . .chose the true, the one that revealed His true nature to Paul.
Quote from: jabcat on February 15, 2011, 01:35:27 AM
"...the greatest of these is love". :HeartThrob:
Someone should have told Calvin that while he was busy murdering all those who disagreed with him in the most brutal fashion imaginable.
Another reason why I am concluding that UR is the doctrine that most resembles the Father's heart.
Yes, Taf and Mol. I can agree Nathan, that Paul chose Jesus and placed his God-given faith in Him as Lord and Savior - once God initially chose him and provided him the faith and ability to do so - giving him eyes to see, as Taf said. :thumbsup:
Which is the case for the entire race of man . . .God has called us, first and foremost, and those who are receptive to his call are born again and given the vision to "see" the Son for who he is . . love, life and light so that we all can become igniters of his love, grace, and mercy in, and toward others.
Molly
QuoteThat we are somehow misunderstanding that word?
Yes, I am saying that Calvin's mistranslation has resulted in a misunderstanding.
Many who correctly do not consider themselves Calvinist still unknowingly labor under the weight of Calvin's misrepresentation of the term predestination.
QuoteSo, your position, Hans, is that what God has established and foreordained unalterably by divine will can be altered by man?
No that's not my position, but your very question hinges upon the mistaken idea that Calvin got his terms right.
QuoteLet's look at the English definition of that word.
I think the preceding post covered the difficulty of switching back and forth between English and Greek.
Jabcat
QuoteHe gives us the ability to come to Him
True, but simply having the ability to do something does not indicate that a person MUST do it. God certainly will give a person the faith to believe, but he will not do your believing for you. I may give some person a truck so they can drive to town for lumber, but they are going to have to do the driving. Giving someone the ability to do something does not mean they necessarily will do it.
Quote from: jabcat on February 15, 2011, 01:32:31 AM
I'd like to quickly interject. I DO believe the scriptures teach it's necessary to have personal faith, and place that faith in Jesus as Savior for salvation. I just also believe the scriptures teach that faith is not ours, it's given to us by God, to whom and when HE chooses. We DO need to get saved, but it's Jesus that does the saving - not our will, effort, faith, etc. He gives us the ability to come to Him - to even breathe, for that matter. I've seen people say Saul/Paul chose Jesus. Really?
In Him we live and move and have our being.
God bless.
:thumbsup:
This is where I come in with, God has a great big PLAN bigger than we've known, and He knows exactly how to bring it to pass. We may struggle with some of the details, but He's made us those clear ultimate promises. He has declared the end from the beginning, and the end of the Lord is merciful. That's a blessing and relief!
Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish. Is. 46:10
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. I Tim. 2:3,4 :thumbsup:
Quote from: HansI may give some person a truck so they can drive to town for lumber, but they are going to have to do the driving. Giving someone the ability to do something does not mean they necessarily will do it.
Is that your experience of it? My experience is he gives you the truck and the gas and the lumber, and if you won't or can't drive, he sends a driver.
I gave you both the Greek and English definitions for predestined. They seem the same to me. Something is foreordained by God unalterably. If you break down the Greek word into the two words that comprise it, they mean ordained before [from the beginning]. You are trying to get some wiggle room out of that. So did Jonah [I'm not going to that city]. So did Moses [ No way, I stutter]. I could even go so far as to say so did Jesus [Take this cup from me]. But, as God's elect, you are in heavy company. There really isn't a whole lot of wiggle room.
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable [can never be withdrawn]. Romans 11:28,29
Quote from: Molly on February 15, 2011, 04:02:04 AM
Quote from: HansI may give some person a truck so they can drive to town for lumber, but they are going to have to do the driving. Giving someone the ability to do something does not mean they necessarily will do it.
Is that your experience of it? My experience is he gives you the truck and the gas and the lumber, and if you won't or can't drive, he sends a driver.
I gave you both the Greek and English definitions for predestined. They seem the same to me. Something is foreordained by God unalterably. If you break down the Greek word into the two words that comprise it, they mean ordained before [from the beginning]. You are trying to get some wiggle room out of that. So did Jonah [I'm not going to that city]. So did Moses [ No way, I stutter]. I could even go so far as to say so did Jesus [Take this cup from me]. But, as God's elect, you are in heavy company. There really isn't a whole lot of wiggle room.
That is my experience as well. I have nothing within myself to do right, to seek God, to pursue Him. When he grants me grace and mercy I have found ways to look for death. But, yet this process is taking place that is outside of me, not of my own control and often it seems like I am just along for the ride.
Quote from: Molly on February 15, 2011, 01:01:43 AM
Quote from: HansLet's just say that I believe that God is able to give people a free choice and that Calvin does not.
Ok, that's fair. Even though we are not allowed to debate free will here, I would say that you believe everyone starts in the book of life and then are blotted out when they do not accept Christ, whereas Calvin says only the elect [those who will accept Christ because they are predestined to] are in the BoL.
Calvin has lots of predestination verses to support his side, and I suppose you have some verses too, but you both end up with the same people, by definition, being saved, that is, the elect who choose Christ.
Therefore, for all practical purposes, you and Calvin agree, don't you?
Does it really matter whether those who choose Christ are predestined or have a choice? The end result is the same. If it makes a difference to you, tell me how.
And, I think that is the take home message. Why squabble over details? I see it this way, you see it that way but really both of our views are limited and most probably incomplete or wrong. I do like a healthy debate but I totally get why the mods don't allow the FW discussion here anymore. It only brings division and strife...rarely sharpening and love.
Yep Shawn.
Alright, tying the OT and NT together;
Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish. Is. 46:10
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. I Tim. 2:3,4
Now beginning the NT. Only a portion here. I may move these later to their own thread, but posting them here for now to show all the promises surrounding the Book of Life, i.e., that there's more to the story/we may not know every detail - moved/removed/added back in, etc., and it all doesn't hinge on a complete understanding of that, IMO. More later;
LUKE
2:10 but the angel reassured them. "Don't be afraid!" he said. "I bring you good news that will bring great joy to all people.
2:14 Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!"
3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'
9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them
19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.
20:38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."
JOHN
1:29 "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
3:17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
4:42 Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him ourselves. Now we know that he is indeed the Savior of the world."
---------------
6:37 those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.6:39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.
13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands
---------------
6:44,45 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
12:32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw (Greek, literal, DRAG) everyone to myself."
12:47 I will not judge those who hear me but don't obey me, for I have come to save the world and not to judge it.
ACTS
3:21 For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
3:25-26 You are the children of those prophets, and you are included in the covenant God promised to your ancestors. For God said to Abraham, 'Through your descendants all the families on earth will be blessed.'
ROMANS
8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
15:21 I have been following the plan spoken of in the Scriptures, where it says,
"Those who have never been told about him will see,
and those who have never heard of him will understand
God bless and speak to all who read.
Molly
QuoteMy experience is he gives you the truck and the gas and the lumber, and if you won't or can't drive, he sends a driver.
You understand that we are talking about getting saved here.
So you had someone other than you do your believing for you? You had someone other than you get saved for you and it was accounted to you? Really?
You had someone other than you confess Christ as Lord, but it was actually accredited to you?
Shawn
QuoteThat is my experience as well.
You understand that we are talking about getting saved here.
So you had someone other than you do your believing for you? You had someone other than you get saved for you and it was accounted to you? Really?
You had someone other than you confess Christ as Lord, but it was actually accredited to you?
No doubt God is at work around us, but at the bottom line, it is for each individual to receive Christ by faith, while God will give you the faith, you still must be the one to actually take action, God will not make the confession for you, neither will it matter if others make the confession of faith for you. That is up to you, alone.
Molly
QuoteI gave you both the Greek and English definitions for predestined.
As I gave you a more detailed explanation of how the Greek term works.
QuoteThey seem the same to me.
I'm sure they are since they are both based upon the Calvinist understanding. The better explanation of the Greek that I gave you comes from a friend that has the best command of Greek I've ever come across.
Quotethey mean ordained before [from the beginning].
I think we already covered that. Yes, the plans were laid in advance. Yes Jesus does have a wonderful plan for your life, but if a person rejects Him they miss the plan. Do you think that's controversial? I don't.
Think of it like this.
A parent plans on giving their kids a big chocolate cake Saturday night. She has planned that it advance. She has preordained it. The cake is already cooked and in the cupboard.
She tells her kids about her preordained plan, and that IF they mow the lawn and clean the house then they will get what she has planned in advance for them. When Sat night comes, two of the kids did their share but one did not.
She had preordained and planned in advance, in essence predestined that ALL three of her kids get the chocolate cake, but because of their choices only two kids get the chocolate cake and one is sent to bed without cake.
Only two got the cake, but it was still her preordained, planned in advance plan that ALL three get it.
Yes, God has planned a wonderful plan in advance for a person's life, but unless that person receives Christ then they will not experience God's plan for their life.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 14, 2011, 04:19:33 PM
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2011, 07:43:08 AM
In my opinion, the things written in the books are the things recorded within our conscience- the record of our deeds and words and motives.
Books are opened and an other Book was opened.
Book = Jesus -> Note that Book/Scroll is written with a captial B/S (divinity)
Books = mankind
That makes perfect sense in combination with the translation "scroll of His life"
So the verse states:
10 biljon books describing the life of everyone ever lived are opened.
Plus 1 book openend that decribes the life of Jesus.
Cool
The Servant of the LORD
1 Listen to me, you islands;
hear this, you distant nations:
Before I was born the LORD called me;
from my mother's womb he has spoken my name.
2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me into a polished arrow
and concealed me in his quiver.
3 He said to me, "You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will display my splendor."
4 But I said, "I have labored in vain;
I have spent my strength for nothing at all.
Yet what is due me is in the LORD's hand,
and my reward is with my God."
5 And now the LORD says—
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD
and my God has been my strength—
6 he says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth."
7 This is what the LORD says—
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
"Kings will see you and stand up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the LORD, who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
--Isa 49
Leviticus 4:6
and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD in front of the veil.
Isaiah 52:15
so he will sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Without it, the whole UR message in the scriptures doesn't come anywhere close to falling apart, since there's somewhere between 100-200 very clear promises in the Word about God bringing mankind ultimately to salvation. I think those can stand on their own as a framework for God's PLAN. :bigGrin:
However, Romans 11 is about being grafted back in. That would be millions of individuals God said could be brought back in if He chose to do so. Even further, He says He will do so eventually, as in "all Israel shall be saved". Cut off for a season, grafted back, all saved.
Thank you Father for Your love and mercy. You are awesome.
Worship Him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZaXKFdRMW8
Quote from: Hansc on February 15, 2011, 06:48:28 AM
Molly
QuoteMy experience is he gives you the truck and the gas and the lumber, and if you won't or can't drive, he sends a driver.
You understand that we are talking about getting saved here.
So you had someone other than you do your believing for you? You had someone other than you get saved for you and it was accounted to you? Really?
You had someone other than you confess Christ as Lord, but it was actually accredited to you?
Shawn
QuoteThat is my experience as well.
You understand that we are talking about getting saved here.
So you had someone other than you do your believing for you? You had someone other than you get saved for you and it was accounted to you? Really?
You had someone other than you confess Christ as Lord, but it was actually accredited to you?
No doubt God is at work around us, but at the bottom line, it is for each individual to receive Christ by faith, while God will give you the faith, you still must be the one to actually take action, God will not make the confession for you, neither will it matter if others make the confession of faith for you. That is up to you, alone.
Molly
QuoteI gave you both the Greek and English definitions for predestined.
As I gave you a more detailed explanation of how the Greek term works.
QuoteThey seem the same to me.
I'm sure they are since they are both based upon the Calvinist understanding. The better explanation of the Greek that I gave you comes from a friend that has the best command of Greek I've ever come across.
Quotethey mean ordained before [from the beginning].
I think we already covered that. Yes, the plans were laid in advance. Yes Jesus does have a wonderful plan for your life, but if a person rejects Him they miss the plan. Do you think that's controversial? I don't.
Think of it like this.
A parent plans on giving their kids a big chocolate cake Saturday night. She has planned that it advance. She has preordained it. The cake is already cooked and in the cupboard.
She tells her kids about her preordained plan, and that IF they mow the lawn and clean the house then they will get what she has planned in advance for them. When Sat night comes, two of the kids did their share but one did not.
She had preordained and planned in advance, in essence predestined that ALL three of her kids get the chocolate cake, but because of their choices only two kids get the chocolate cake and one is sent to bed without cake.
Only two got the cake, but it was still her preordained, planned in advance plan that ALL three get it.
Yes, God has planned a wonderful plan in advance for a person's life, but unless that person receives Christ then they will not experience God's plan for their life.
I think part of the reason there's some caution to this sort of thinking isn't because that it's totally bogus, but it does seem to come close to a line that tradition has reinforced and we no longer adhere to it. What is it that the "saved" part is affecting? What "is" God's plan for us? Are you speaking about current state? Or finished state? Because God's overall plan is already finished and man's final destination has already been addressed and is now established. "That" plan is in effect regardless as to whether I make a conscious decision as to whether Jesus is or isn't who he claimed he is to be. God's already taken over with the driving of that truck already.
However, if you're referring to current state, which is God's plan for our lives here and now . . .it's not that our rejection of him would cause him to go to a plan "B", there is no plan B with God . . .There are many, many examples in Scripture where God had a plan "A" and the person he had chosen to carry out plan A suggested he go to a plan B because for personal reasons, they were not interested in being involved in his plan A. So did he leave them and go to someone else? Or did he convince them there is no plan B?
Abraham came up with his own plan B and slept with Hagar, thinking that was God's plan A . . .God still honored his covenant with Hagar because the covenant he made with Abraham was in Abraham's seed . . .it's the seed that carries the anointing, not so much the container that the seed is carried in (Abraham's flesh).
The point is, Salvation is still a HUGE issue here. It's still just as important as it ever was. But what it is that Salvation "does" is what's sort of changed in my mind . . .salvation isn't about final destination. Salvation is about "seeing" the principles of the kingdom while still living on the earth . . it's about reproducing the life of Christ through "us" into "others". And I can't reproduce Christ in others unless I've experienced Christ within me first.
What do you suppose we are being saved "from?"
Careful . . that's a loaded question.
Quote from: HansThe word translated "predestined" is prooridzo. It occurs six times in the NT (Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29, 30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5, 11).
It literally means "to mark out a boundary in advance," and in practical meaning, that is "to plan in advance." It is derived from a verb that means "to mark out a boundary," from which we get our word "horizon" (as in, the horizon is the "boundary" or "limit" of how far we can see). The idea of "marking a boundary" has the meaning of "planning" in everyday language from the idea that a plan is something that metaphorically "draws a boundary around, or sets the limits of" our future actions.
The problem is that in ENGLISH, predestined means that what has been planned in advance WILL HAPPEN. There is nothing we can do about it. If God predestines something, it WILL happen.
That is NOT what this Greek word means.
It contains no inherent concept that the plan or boundaries that are drawn in advance WILL happen. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. God has made a plan for our lives, WAY in advance of when we were even born. We can fulfil that plan, or we can reject God, and miss that plan.
Because of the "predestination" versus "free will" argument, most people think the two are contradictory (if one is true, the other cannot be true).
The irony is that "free will" and "predestination" go hand in hand. When God "predestined" us to be conformed to the image of His Son, we are told that He has made a wonderful plan for our lives to be LIKE His Son. We have the free will to accept or reject that plan.
So all "predestined" means is "to plan in advance."
The point is that Yes, predestination and election are all over the Bible. But Calvin defines the term as "it MUST happen and you have NO Choice" This defaults more into a doctrine of philosophical pre-determinism rather than true Biblical predestination. The problem is that many still accept Calvin's definition of various terms, not realizing that Calvin got some of his keys definitions wrong.
So, Yes, to true Biblical predestination.
NO, to Calvin's pre-determinism, falsely labeled as predestination.
Do you mean the best laid schemes of God and men / Go oft awry?
Let's look some more at that word predestinate
[proorizō] which comes from two Greek words:
G4253
πρό
pro
pro
A primary preposition;
"fore", that is, in front of,
prior (figuratively superior) to. In compounds it retains the same significations: - above, ago,
before, or ever. In compounds it retains the same significations.
G3724
ὁρίζω
horizōhor-id'-zo
From G3725;
to mark out or bound ("horizon"),
that is, (figuratively)
to appoint, decree, specify: - declare, determine, limit, ordain.
So what does this word mean in our context? God has marked out the bounds of something, appointed someone, declared something, determined something, limited something, or ordained something --before it happens.
Now you mention 'horizon', as an example of a limiting factor. I suppose you are thinking, this person has to walk to the horizon to be saved and he refuses to do it? I'm not really sure what you are thinking. But consider this, the bars on a jail cell are also a boundary, a limiting factor. What kind of horizon does a man in a jail cell have? How far can he walk?
Paul explains this limiting factor in more detail here--So let's hear what God has to say--
9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses,
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is
not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy. --Rom 9
So it's all about a God that shows mercy, Hans. And, guess what? He shows mercy to all! [Rom 11:32]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsCp5LG_zNE
Nathan
QuoteWhat is it that the "saved" part is affecting?
It is affects a person's relationship with God, from an alienated separation to a reconciliation of shared Life.
Quote"That" plan is in effect regardless as to whether I make a conscious decision as to whether Jesus is or isn't who he claimed he is
Then we will just have to disagree on this. I believe that believing Christ, believing in His resurrection and receiving Him as Lord makes a difference not just in the short run, but also in the long run.
QuoteGod's already taken over with the driving of that truck already.
We will also have to disagree on this also. While God may indeed be calling unto a person and even moving in his life to bring them to a point of receiving Christ, nonetheless that does not absolve a person of their obligations to believe and receive Christ. God certainly will give you the faith you need, but He will not do your believing and receiving for you. That is a person's responsibility.
Nathan, and the rest, while this thread has been fun, I need to leave. I think that we have each had opportunity to express our various views.
I'm leaving, for now, because of time demands in my job are heating up and I need every sliver of time possible over the next 2-3 months. All of you have been gracious hosts and perhaps after I take care of the pressing demands on me I will have more time on my hands to come back for a visit.
Peace out, Hans
I really appreciate your views Hans. I have personally wavered between both these sets of beliefs for much of my adult life. I understand both sides of this very tough subject to understand.
Personal accountability...how much of a role do we have in all of this?
I do know much of the Bible is written as we do have a significant role. There are many instructions on living. I really like the book of James, much wisdom for living there. So one must think that we do indeed have some role.
When I think of predestination, I do believe in election and in true predestination not just foresight. But, I don't believe that means all our steps have been marched out for us. I believe God is moving us from point A to point B. Within that framework, we move, stumble, are redirected, corrected, stumble less, mature, grow in relationship, learn etc.
When I speak about Christ driving the truck, that doesn't mean I don't try to take hold of the wheel. It means this process, this road I walk is Christ driven and directed. He knows where we are going, he has the directions, he IS the direction.
Quote from: jabcat on November 28, 2010, 09:22:22 PM
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.
Assertion:
UR believers are changing words like eternal, forever, and many others to fit their belief. Show me why you think those words mean something different than what the KJV says.
(thanks CHB for contribution)
Quote from: jabcat on November 28, 2010, 09:22:22 PM
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.
Assertion:
UR believers are changing words like eternal, forever, and many others to fit their belief. Show me why you think those words mean something different than what the KJV says.
(thanks CHB for contribution)
This shows me that it's still not too late for me to become part of the second resurrection, rather than the first. Though I believe the Book of Life is not closed to more names being written in it until after the second resurrection and judgment day, the first resurrection still far surpasses the second.
- There's really only one Bible verse, that I know of that perhaps sounds like "it's all over once a person dies" no chance for repentance after that, and this is Jesus telling the Pharisees unless they repent they will die in their sins. Most assume this to mean, die in your sins/all over. But perhaps it means instead one forfeits experiencing the first resurrection.
- As to losing my part in the Holy City, uh oh. That sounds to me like I still have the potential to really mess up bad (super, super stubbornly) and find myself locked outside all the good things to come in God's ultimate reality/blueprint He has planned and worked out.
- Now, just because I have the potential to do this, it doesn't mean I will! And, it doesn't mean anyone will! I don't want to sound crazy (to some) but this verse, to me, sounds like a threat from a loving parent in the sternest tone possible to warn their child away from a very destructive path. That's not to say the threat is still not a possibility and potential! [That's the thing.. that's why this whole good from evil thing (life from death) - learning it, that is, will be so very very deeeply etched upon every heart.]
Quote from: marie glen on February 16, 2011, 10:21:31 PM
There's really only one Bible verse, that I know of that perhaps sounds like "it's all over once a person dies" no chance for repentance after that, and this is Jesus telling the Pharisees unless they repent they will die in their sins. Most assume this to mean, die in your sins/all over.
You mean this verse MG?
YLTHeb 927 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
YLTLuke 1248 and he who, not having known, and having done things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few; and to every one to whom much was given, much shall be required from him; and to whom they did commit much, more abundantly they will ask of him.
There are gradations in punishment.
And that's not: You go in hell for eternity and you where really evil so you get 5x eternity.
YLTPs 305 For--a moment is in His anger, Life is in His good-will, At even remaineth weeping, and at morn singing.
YLTMatt 1220 a bruised reed he shall not break, and smoking flax he shall not quench, till he may put forth judgment to victory,
Quote from: Molly on February 15, 2011, 05:03:55 PM
Do you mean the best laid schemes of God and men / Go oft awry?
These are good points Molly (& others).
Calvinism does have some things right (relating to the sovereignty of God), but unfortunately goes terribly wrong and comes to the horrific conclusion that God created people specifically to be tormented forever, and this is what God wants.
:mshock: :sigh:
However they got the sovereignty of God right. IMHO this is often at the root of disbelief in universalism. We can't seem to quite come to grips with the fact that God really is in complete control of our salvation. We cannot boast in our salvation - that is because it is ALL of God.
It is God who draws us to Him (John 6:44, John 6:65).
It is God who gives us faith (Eph 2:8, Rom 12:3).
It is God who grants us belief (Phil 1:29).
It is God who leads us to repent (Rom 2:4, 2 Tim 2:25).
Therefore:
Salvation is a complete work of God. If we did any part of our salvation ourself
then we could boast about it. But scripture is clear we cannot boast about our salvation.
This is not to say that we ourselves
do not need to believe, repent, have faith, etc. No, nothing is further from the truth.
We do need to do those things! But it is God who prompts, draws, grants, leads and in fact causes us to do those things. If God did not prompt us to do these things,
then we would not do them. That is why none can boast. It is all of God.
So if God is in complete control of salvation through Him leading us, and God also wants all men to be saved, then we can have
complete assurance that
all will be saved! That is the best assurance ever. Not assurance in our own faith or works to do the right thing, but assurance in the
almighty creator of the universe to save all just as He said He will.
If you can get your head around this concept of God's sovereignty, then issues like the Book of Life take on a different meaning. We may not understand completely how/if names are added/removed from the Book of Life - but we do know that God is in control of salvation and He wants all to be saved - therefore it will be done.
GOOD NEWS!
Revelation 20:4,5,6 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the beast neither his image __ neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished This is the first resurrection
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection on such the second death hath no power but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years
The overcomers will remain in the book of life, they will not have to pass through the fire. They have passed from death into life and they are washed in the blood of the Lamb because they have continually brought their sins to the light and strove to walk in love. They "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they loved not their life unto death".
Revelation 3:4,5 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy
He that overcometh the same shall be clothed in white raiment and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life but I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels
We are like Sardis, their are few who are chosen to walk with Him in white. Most of us are recieving our reward in this life as we save our own lives and seek the glory of men and enjoy the life of this age- our works are nor perfect(mature/complete)
Revelation 3:4 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy
There are overcomers in the midst of the "living dead/zombies/sleepwalkers". They are encouraged only to "hold out till He comes". The Lord knows those who are His. They are not identified doctrinally, but by the secrets of their hearts.
John 15:4-6 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
Abide in me and I in you As the branch cannot __ bear fruit of itself except it abide in the vine no more ">__ can ye except ye abide in me
I am the vine ye are the branches He that abideth in me and I in him the same bringeth forth much fruit for without me ye can do nothing __
If a man abide not in me he is cast forth as a branch and is withered and men gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned
If we return to "abiding", drawing on the life of the vine, bearing fruit of eternity, we are blessed. If we dry up through self life and law and the pursuit of head knowledge we are going to be saved, but as through the fire
Those who abide"enduring to the end".... "faithful unto the death"...."walking in the light" (not asleep in the dark) will not have to pass through the fire. They will pass "go"- having passed from death into life and overcoming the sleep of death, they will rejoice at His appearing- and are rejoicing at His appearing daily.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
Every man's work shall be made manifest for the day shall declare it because it shall be revealed by fire and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon he shall receive a reward
If any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be saved yet ">so as by fire
The fire is the discernment/exposure of the "eyes of Him with whom we have to do" before whom "all things are laid bare". The One whose eyes are as a flame of fire. For evrything that is hidden in secret will be brought to light by "the day"- so walk in the light.
Revelation 3:2,3 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
Be watchful and strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die for I have not found thy works perfect before GodRemember therefore how thou hast received and heard and hold fast and repent If therefore thou shalt not watch I will come on thee as a thief and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee
The thief comes to those who sleep, therefore "Awake O Sleeper and arise from the dead and the Light of Christ will shine on you". Those who sleep are alive, but living like the dead, unaware of the purpose of God and not walking in His ways.
1 Thessalonians 5:4-6 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
But ye brethren are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief
Ye are all the children of light and the children of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness
Therefore __ let us not sleep as __ do others but let us watch and be sober
If we do not watch we will fall asleep and the trumpet will find us sleeping with no oil in our vessels, we will not "make it out" to the wedding supper(fellowship/celebration of the union of the Bride and the Lamb- always happening in the day, see Hebrews....you have come unto Zion and unto the heavenly Jerusalem.... Rev Coming down out of the heavens prepared as a Bride) Where is she coming down? IN THE DAY among all those who are walking in the light, continuing in the word and the Spirit and the love of God
1 John 1:7 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
But if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another __ and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin
Abide in the vine, continue in the word and in the fellowship of the saints, loving one another and shining as lights in a dark world. As the blood cleanses because we are transparent with one another(true fellowship/koinonea) we are assured that we will "awaken" to the unreserved "well done" of the Master. As James said, "For we all stumble in many ways"..... and "Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed". Abiding is not legal perfection, it is a state of "pressing in to know the Lord" and growing in grace and love. Thes are the "perfect works"- and only those who "come clean" in fellowship get the victory over the imperfect works of the flesh- and only those who stay clean through "walking in the light" in koinonea and love can stay there.
" For I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have comitted to Him against that day"
"He that has begun a good work in you is faithful and will complete it unto the day of Christ Jesus"
"For I have loved you with an everlasting love, and I have called you from the foundation of the world to be my sons and daughters, a priesthood, holy and precious unto God" :HeartThrob:
Ephesians 2:5-7 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
Even when we were dead in sins hath quickened us together with Christ by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus
As I see it (in part) All those whos names are written in the Lamb's book of life will not be hurt of the second death(free pass- no fire, because it cannot light on them, because they stayed humble and blood washed because of their trasnsparency) - they will receive the ressurection of reward. Those whos name are blotted out of the Lamb's book of life are those whose works were imperfect and they lose that reward(be zealous therefore and repent). It is reserved for those in whom it was fulfilled through whatever secret love and service and transparency they yielded unto God in their lives.
I believe the second death is the death of the soul... Jesus said those who lose their soul for His sake find it... the death of the soul is when we (as Jesus did) pour out our soul unto death (exchange our will for His will). The second death does not *hurt* us because we DESIRE to exchange our will for His will.
Thanks for being a good "guest". :bigGrin: The door's always open, brother.
Quote from: Beth on February 17, 2011, 03:56:50 AM
I believe the second death is the death of the soul... Jesus said those who lose their soul for His sake find it... the death of the soul is when we (as Jesus did) pour out our soul unto death (exchange our will for His will). The second death does not *hurt* us because we DESIRE to exchange our will for His will.
yea, thats beautifull, I agree. That's what the overcomers are overcoming....yet, I also see that this occurs as we "yield our bodies as a living sacrifice"... and "love the Lord with our whole heart" and... "are transformed by the renewing of our minds".
For those who receive the second death in life perservering through fiery sanctification (buy of me gold tried in the fire). which is the yielding process, there is no more kolassis. "all discipline is for the moment unpleasant but in the end yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness". "So, let know, let us press on to know the Lord"
The receiving of truth in the inner man and the alignment of the spirit, soul and body centered within a whole hearted devotion is the "destruction" of the old man....and the rising up of the new creation. "Behold, I am making all things new".
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--Rev 20
This describes the resurrection which occurs after the millennium. One thing I'm wondering about is why the book of life is still an issue after the 1000 year rule by Christ and his saints. But, of course, before this resurrection, Satan has been loosed again and it seems like he's managed to deceive all the nations again.
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
--Rev 20
That would imply that most of these people do not have the indwelling spirit even after living in a world ruled by Christ. I realize I am trying to read something literally that is not necessarily meant to be literal, but I need to make some kind of literal sense out of it.
If the book of life is just the elect who will rule with Christ in the millennium, then why is it an issue at the 'second' resurrection?
Unless all are meant to be in the BoL eventually?
I just don't understand why the tangible rule of Christ and his saints doesn't seem to change anything. The nations are still deceived within ten seconds of satan being released...like they haven't learned a thing..
There is nothing that limits the book of life to one resurrection or the other from what I can see. I think the few things written of it show application to both resurrections. I am not sure that enough information is given to make strong assertions about it...... we see through a glass darkly there, or at least, I do :dontknow:
It has occured to me that if the great white throne is not in heaven, but perhaps a throne in a holy temple in the rebuilt Holy Jerusalem, which means that if the great white throne happens on the earth it means that the dead who appeared before this judgment seat do not have to be spirit bodies, but can indeed be flesh and blood bodies. This means that whosoever is not found in the book of life were thrown into the fire. Perhaps this fire is a bit like living life such as Cain, who are given a mark and are vagbond upon the earth, they are tormented in the presence of the lamb and holy angels, because the life they use to live on a earth full of devils etc where their sins are hidden, but now in the new earth they are cast out into outer darkness, where there is gnashing of teeth, and their sins are no longer hidden and therefore are tormented in an earth, where the lamb rules and the holy angels
Perhaps the torment is also a life of living in the wilderness, where the tree of life etc is not available, those that lie etc are not allowed into the heavenly city.
Quote from: thinktank on February 17, 2011, 06:06:42 PM
It has occured to me that if the great white throne is not in heaven, but perhaps a throne in a holy temple in the rebuilt Holy Jerusalem,
Maybe it's aready there...
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_decending_dove_his_baptism_is_new_jerusalem_9156.msg113669.html#msg113669
Perhaps the great white throne is outside of time, at the entrance to THE DAY, into which evryone awakens after their "life lived in the body". And perhaps it is always being played out in the conscience of man, that innermost place where time and eternity connect. I think the parallels in these things present many possibilities, none of which necessarily preclude the others. However, for all those who overcome, whose names are written in the Lambs book of Life, and have received the morning star, the crown of life, the key of David and the designation "pillar"- over such as these the second death has no power. Worth pressing into no matter how one sees it relating to the administration of the fulness of times. To some extent we are all always standing before the Great White Throne.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 17, 2011, 07:06:23 PM
Quote from: thinktank on February 17, 2011, 06:06:42 PM
It has occured to me that if the great white throne is not in heaven, but perhaps a throne in a holy temple in the rebuilt Holy Jerusalem,
Maybe it's aready there...
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_decending_dove_his_baptism_is_new_jerusalem_9156.msg113669.html#msg113669
Perhaps the throne is, but it needs a high priest. If white throne on earth, then perhaps during millenium 1000 years, that the priesthood will establish everything that is needed for the greatwhitethrone at the end. As Jesus said "know ye not ye shall judge angels". So perhaps we or the disciples will also be judging at the greatwhite throne room. Maybe that is why we are kings and priests of God for a thousand years, we are being Gods physical presence on the earth. He may return to earth at the battle of armageddon, but he may not stay on the earth but go back to heaven and give his saints rule over the earth in the millenium peace, until the time comes for, restitution of all things, new heavens and earth etc.
Just a side note; as soon as we feel we have to "hold up our end of the bargain" .I think we have a tendency of expecting the same in others.this can lead to judging one another and I know we don't want to do that do we ?
I say "we" are kings by faith, there is no guarantee that I will be among the saved and I might be among the ones being judged at the throne room, but by faith , that he will complete the work in me and in those that have called upon his name, or those who he chose, whatever your persepctive is.
Quote from: onlytruth on February 17, 2011, 09:10:59 PM
Just a side note; as soon as we feel we have to "hold up our end of the bargain" .I think we have a tendency of expecting the same in others.this can lead to judging one another and I know we don't want to do that do we ?
I know what you mean. :thumbsup:
Although often I wonder...
why can't everyone be/ perfect in every way like me? :happygrin:
[j/k...] :laughing7:
Molly, I heard someone they "didn't want to be perfect because there has never been but one man perfect and they killed him".
CHB
Quote from: CHB on February 18, 2011, 03:07:21 AM
Molly, I heard someone they "didn't want to be perfect because there has never been but one man perfect and they killed him".
CHB
LOL!!
Good point, CHB. :laughing7:
Quote from: thinktank on February 17, 2011, 09:32:42 PM
I say "we" are kings by faith, there is no guarantee that I will be among the saved and I might be among the ones being judged at the throne room, but by faith , that he will complete the work in me and in those that have called upon his name, or those who he chose, whatever your persepctive is.
I agree entirely, as did Paul.......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect(mature), have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you
It would make an interesting study, the different types of believers, i.e. overcomers, kings, priests, those saved as by fire/delivered to satan with works burned/spirit saved... There does seem to possibly be a select group within the elect/saved. Some call them overcomers or Manifest Sons of God as opposed to the "regular old saved folks" :laughing7:. Paul said the basics of salvation are based on grace not works; that even though some are the elect (saved now in this lifetime), there's still nothing we can boast of, it's totally grace through faith that's not our own, it's a gift of God. We can know we're saved; whoever calls on Jesus, whoever believes on/confesses Him as Savior are saved. Romans 8:16 says "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God".
There are also scriptures that say God ensures it; predestined in Him unto good works; He Who began a good work in you will complete it; He will keep that "which I've committed until that day"; He's the Author and Finisher of our faith, etc. Seems Paul, even though he taught all these things about the basic salvation being ensured for the ecclesia, and that works had nothing to do with it - just our faith given to us placed in Jesus Christ - He still sought to attain a "status" (poor word choice) or rewards, position of responsibility/service, a level of maturity ("perfection") beyond the norm.
So saved by grace not works, yet still some other "position" having to do with overcoming and/or exemplary maturity...I've seen some describe it as "serving God at the throne" vs. "worshiping around the throne"? I personally think they're different things, different "levels" somehow, but I don't have the best handle on it. I'm one of those "happy to slip in" based on the blood of Jesus applied to my heart when He convicted me a pulled me to Him - through absolutely NOTHING of my own. :2c:
Quote from: eagleswayNot that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect(mature), have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you
This is like a bright jewel to me. It's like waking up on Christmas morning when I was a child. It's the excitement of the first days of Spring. It's like fireworks on the fourth of July filling the sky with explosions of colored light.
Where would these feelings come from if not God?
We are all so blessed to understand, no matter what level of understanding we have, even as a mustard seed.
It's a gift. There's no doubt in my mind. It's a gift.
And every other gift I have, pales by comparison.
Philippians 3:8-9 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-
I think encouragement is key, isn't there supposed to be a cloud of witnesses that are watching and wanting us to succeed?
Quote from: onlytruth on February 18, 2011, 07:30:20 PM
I think encouragement is key, isn't there supposed to be a cloud of witnesses that are watching and wanting us to succeed?
Absolutely. And, aren't we part of that cloud?
Romans 1:12
that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith.
maybe someone should start a thread ...where all that is mentioned is where people overcome or receive revelation to overcome whatever is going on in their lives.
heres a quick one...I am a aux rcmp(police).One nite racing back to get a camera to take pictures of an accident ,I was almost at the station when the last lite went red.riding with another aux. I yelled "GO GREEN",the lite changed immediately!This shocked the aux. with me as well as the person who was proceeding through his green lite and had to put his car in reverse and go back and wait!
kinda of cool what is possible when we receive the authority...
blessings :icon_king:
Wow, cool..... I'm gonna try it on myself
"GO HUMBLE"
"GO KIND!"
"GO FAITHFUL"
"GO AGAPE"
Thanks for the tip ;o)
I ripped this off from another forum that's been discussing the Book of Life. This is a UR believer responding to another member there, and I thought it was good -
Revelation 22:14-17
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Quote:
"....those who wash their robes...." refers to a scene recorded in Revelations 7:9-17 For your reference:
Quote:
Those who have washed their robes are those believers who were martyred during the Tribuation period on earth. That event occurs before any people are judged and thrown into the LoF.
-------
... you cannot equate Rev.7:9-17, which is before the judgment with that which is after the judgment as Rev.22:14-17 is speaking of.
Chapter 21 speaks of the New Jerusalem, the holy city and the new heavens and earth. Verse 8 of that chapter states
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Notice that they shall have their PART in the lake.
Chapter 22 is a carryover of Chapter 21 and starts this way
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations
Notice that the tree of life is for the healing of the nations.
Who needs to be healed if all who are ever going to be saved are already saved when God establishes the New Jerusalem?
It is those that have their PART in the lake of fire.
Verse 14 of 22 states
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Notice that those who keep his commandments have right to the tree of life and can enter into the gates of the city.
The version you are using states
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
It really does not matter which version is correct because it show that those who keep his commandments or those who wash their robes are those who are WITHOUT the gates of the city. For how else can one ENTER the gates of the city unless they are on the OUTSIDE of the city.
So who are those that are WITHOUT the city gates?
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Or your version
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
Those OUTSIDE of the city gates are the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
So as the New Jerusalem has already been established who are those on the OUTSIDE of the city gates? Not Christian, they would be on the inside of the gates at this time. That leaves only one group of people. The dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Verse 17 goes on to say
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely
Who are the thirsty ones? Have not the Christian inside the gates of the city already partaken of the water of life? Have not those on the inside of the gates already heard the Spirit and the bride say come? Yes and Yes, so who does that leave us with? Those WITHOUT the gates, who are those WITHOUT the gates? The dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Gods judgments when they come into the earth are so that the world might learn righteousness. One does not learn righteousness by being endlessly tormented.
God judgments all have a purpose, so what could the purpose of endless torment teach anyone?
________________________________________
Quote:
"once they learn to keep the commandments of God?" is not in Rev.22:14-17.
----------
...verse 14 states in the KJV
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Obviously one must learn to keep his commandments in order to have the right to the tree of life.
Quote:
Revelation 22:6-21 is a salutation of the prophesy, not a continuation of events of the prophesy.
----------
Revelation 22:14-17 is part of that salutation, and there is nothing within that text which suggests those without have any opportunity of repentance to be allowed into the city.
I disagree, there are no chapters or verses in the original scriptures, chapter 22 is a carryover of Chapter 21 for 22 starts off with (And he shewed me) which is not a salutation but something further God wanted John to see
Quote:
In fact, verse 11 tells us this:
Revelation 22
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
"Still" has a meaning of "from that time".
-----------
And that tells us what? That those who are filthy will be filthy from that time, how long is from that time?
You seem to believe from that time = eternity, but the word still/eti comes from the primary word etos which means a year. So they will be filthy for a year. This year of filthiness matches up nicely with what the Jews at the time of Christ understood about the fires of Gehenna. For they understood that those who entered into the fires of Gehenna did so for up to one year/12 months of purification and then were allowed out of the fire.
Quote:
The final separation is those (unfaithful) in the lake of fire (without the city) from those (faithful) in the New Jerusalem (in the city).
----------
If it is a final separation, how are those WITHOUT the gates allowed to enter into the city?
Obviously the faithful at this time are already in the city, so who is it that is WITHOUT that is allowed to ENTER?
Quote:
Matthew 25
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
There is a place PREPARED for spirit beings.
Spirit beings have no atonement, for there is no blood of spirit beings.
Once you become a spirit being (resurrection), there no longer is an atonement for you.
Quote:
You are cast into the lake of fire when you are a spirit being.
There is no atonement for you there.
----------
Two things
First if it is PREPARED it is NOT eternal.
Second That is your opinion but scripture tells us otherwise. Read my post 13 in the universalism section will angels someday be saved.
Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God
Quote from: JabYou seem to believe from that time = eternity, but the word still/eti comes from the primary word etos which means a year. So they will be filthy for a year. This year of filthiness matches up nicely with what the Jews at the time of Christ understood about the fires of Gehenna. For they understood that those who entered into the fires of Gehenna did so for up to one year/12 months of purification and then were allowed out of the fire.
This is interesting.
[He that is unjust let him be unjust]
"still"G2089
ἔτι
etiet'-ee
Perhaps akin to
G2094; "yet",
still (of time or degree): - after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-) henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more (-one), now, still, yet.
G2094
ἔτος
etoset'-os
Apparently a primary word;
a year: - year.
What's interesting about this theory is the description of the tree within the city that is for the healing of the nations--there is a fruit for every month of the year.
On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. --Rev 22:2
Here's 9 fruits. What are the other 3?
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
--Gal 5
Good observations, Mol.
This is from Judaism 101 - "the Hebrew term Gehinnom became a figurative name for the place of spiritual purification for the wicked dead in Judaism. According to most Jewish sources, the period of purification or punishment is limited to only 12 months and every shabbath day is excluded from punishment.."
This reminds me of a vision I read about - can't remember where or who. But their vision was of corrective punishment/discipline in the "afterlife". They said even during the discipline, angels were looking on [concerned] and at the end of a session/day, the angels ministered to those being disciplined; caring for them, comforting them, attending to their needs. Whether accurate or not, I don't know. I'd like to think so.
And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing."
--Eze 47:12
This is going somewhere, but I'm too tired to see where. :icon_king:
YLTEzek 47
12 And by the stream there cometh up on its edge, on this side and on that side, every kind of fruit-tree whose leaf fadeth not, and not consumed is its fruit, according to its months it yieldeth first-fruits, because its waters from the sanctuary are coming forth; and its fruits hath been for food, and its leaf for medicine.
Healing means it's intended for the people that are "not saved yet".
The people with the new glorified perfect bodies need no healing.
The tree of good and evil (fig tree) was the only tree that didn't whiter away in the garden of Eden. Just like the tree in this verse. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/experiencing_tabernacle_4983.msg98042.html#msg98042
The garden of Eden is the holies of holies. So it's rivers flow out of the sanctuary.
I believe the verse is about the garden of Eden but I don't know why the fruit is for eating and the leaves for healing.
The meaning of healing is just that: healing.
But one of it's root words seems totally unrelated...
H7322 (BestLex)
רוּף
rûph
BDB Definition:
1) (Polel) to shake, rock
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2201
In Rev. there is a similar verse about the Tree of Life. But the way I see it there is just one tree. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg116949.html#msg116949 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg116949.html#msg116949)
That may seem as a contradiction because Ez. is quite clear with "banks"
שׂפת / שׂפה
śâphâh / śepheth
BDB Definition:
1) lip, language, speech, shore, bank, brink, brim, side, edge, border, binding
1a) lip (as body part)
1b) language
1c) edge, shore, bank (of cup, sea, river, etc)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: probably from H5595 or H8192 through the idea of termination (compare H5490)
It's a complex word with roots that seem sometimes not very related. This one is interesting
סוף
sôph
BDB Definition:
1) end, conclusion
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H5486
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1478a
My thoughts:
Jesus sits on His throne. Under His throne ends (read starts) a river. Jesus is the Tree of Life.
12 months, 12 fruits, 12 leaves, 12 tribes :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2011, 11:01:51 AM
Healing means it's intended for the people that are "not saved yet".
The people with the new glorified perfect bodies need no healing.
The meaning of healing is just that: healing.
But one of it's root words seems totally unrelated...
H7322 (BestLex)
רוּף
rûph
BDB Definition:
1) (Polel) to shake, rock
Hebrews 12:26 whose voice then
shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet
once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. 27 And this word , Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that
those things which are not shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe: 29
for our God is a consuming fire.
Mmm, Jesus does have a voice....
Judgement?
If so, then I see judgment and healing going together, as in shaking and healing being from the same root word. Again, consuming what's not of God, all that's remaining being of God. I'd never noticed the scrip "our God's a consuming fire" linked with the shaking scrip before. As Molly said, this is going somewhere. :thumbsup:
P.S. And it ain't ET. :dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on February 22, 2011, 11:39:33 AMIf so, then I see judgment and healing going together,
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_threatenings_explained/aionios_kolasis_5953.msg61991.html#msg61991
Quoteas in shaking and healing being from the same root word.
Not exactly. One root word of healing is another word that means healing. But the second root word means shaking.
I wonder what Polel means.
My lexicon mentions the root words but also "Same Word by TWOT Number: 2201"
I don't know what TWOT means but if I assume it's just another Strong number I find cry.
זעקה / זעק
za‛aq / ze‛âqâh
BDB Definition:
1) cry, outcry
1a) outcry
1b) cry of distress
1c) outcry, clamour
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H2199
Same Word by TWOT Number: 570a
The root word of cry
zâ‛aq
BDB Definition:
1) to cry, cry out, call, call for help
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to call (to one's aid)
1a2) to cry, cry out (in need)
1b) (Niphal) to be assembled, be called together, be joined together
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to call, call out, call together, summon
1c2) to make a crying, proclaim
1c3) to have a proclamation made
1c4) to call out to, call out at
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 570
Finally that TWOT number for more confusion...
אמשׁ
'emesh
BDB Definition:
1) yesterday, last night
2) recently (figuratively)
Part of Speech: adverb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: unknown derivation
Same Word by TWOT Number: 120
It keeps linking to other words like adam, the place of the tabernacle, red, God. So I'm not sure how far it's useful to trace the words back.
I checked some random Hebrew words and kept going back using that TWOT. Some were dead ends because the translators were unable to find the root. But 7 out of 10 all traced back to the word H1 = God :mshock:
(the other 3 words are dead ends)
Quote from: jabcat on February 22, 2011, 11:39:33 AMAgain, consuming what's not of God, all that's remaining being of God. I'd never noticed the scrip "our God's a consuming fire" linked with the shaking scrip before.
YLTIsa 3033 For, arranged from former time is Tophet, Even it for the king is prepared, He hath made deep, He hath made large, Its pile is fire and much wood, The breath of Jehovah, As a stream of brim stone, is burning in it!
Brimstone purifies. And what's pure is healty.
Quote from: jabcat on February 22, 2011, 11:17:48 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2011, 11:01:51 AM
Healing means it's intended for the people that are "not saved yet".
The people with the new glorified perfect bodies need no healing.
The meaning of healing is just that: healing.
But one of it's root words seems totally unrelated...
H7322 (BestLex)
רוּף
rûph
BDB Definition:
1) (Polel) to shake, rock
Hebrews 12:26 whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. 27 And this word , Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe: 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
Did somebody else say this or did I dream it? He's shaking out everything that can be shaken out--leaving only that which cannot be shaken, Christ. That's the healing.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, --He 12
Quote from: Molly on February 22, 2011, 10:08:57 AM
And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing."
--Eze 47:12
This is going somewhere, but I'm too tired to see where. :icon_king:
ALL men are Trees[ Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. aka - and the Righteuos Shall grow as CEDARS] - Leaves are a Covering - ALL life is GRASS = green-
Isa 40:6
Luk 12:28 If then God so
clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Jer 17:7 Blessed [is] the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
Jer 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the
waters, and [that] spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her
leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
The River of Life[ WATERS] came from the Under the Temple [ EZ] spoken in John Jhn 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water
The Fruit\seed is GROWN in the WOMB= Garden = belly =MIND,...
Christ is the Tithe[ our increase] - the
SEED of the Land and the
FRUIT of the Trees[ all men are TREES]
Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the LORD
Deu 7:13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the
fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
Pro 18:20 A
man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; [and] with the increase of his lips shall he be filled
:icon_flower:
He is the RIVER ,we are the Trees, founded on the Tribes\Apostles , HE is the ROOTof the TREES, HE is the FRUIT of the Trees, who bears FRUITthrough US, the Trees :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Quote from: jabcat on February 22, 2011, 05:43:42 AM
I ripped this off from another forum that's been discussing the Book of Life. This is a UR believer responding to another member there, and I thought it was good -
Revelation 22:14-17
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Quote:
"....those who wash their robes...." refers to a scene recorded in Revelations 7:9-17 For your reference:
Quote:
Those who have washed their robes are those believers who were martyred during the Tribuation period on earth. That event occurs before any people are judged and thrown into the LoF.
-------
... you cannot equate Rev.7:9-17, which is before the judgment with that which is after the judgment as Rev.22:14-17 is speaking of.
Chapter 21 speaks of the New Jerusalem, the holy city and the new heavens and earth. Verse 8 of that chapter states
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Notice that they shall have their PART in the lake.
Chapter 22 is a carryover of Chapter 21 and starts this way
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations
Notice that the tree of life is for the healing of the nations.
Who needs to be healed if all who are ever going to be saved are already saved when God establishes the New Jerusalem?
It is those that have their PART in the lake of fire.
Verse 14 of 22 states
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Notice that those who keep his commandments have right to the tree of life and can enter into the gates of the city.
The version you are using states
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
It really does not matter which version is correct because it show that those who keep his commandments or those who wash their robes are those who are WITHOUT the gates of the city. For how else can one ENTER the gates of the city unless they are on the OUTSIDE of the city.
So who are those that are WITHOUT the city gates?
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Or your version
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
Those OUTSIDE of the city gates are the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
So as the New Jerusalem has already been established who are those on the OUTSIDE of the city gates? Not Christian, they would be on the inside of the gates at this time. That leaves only one group of people. The dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Verse 17 goes on to say
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely
Who are the thirsty ones? Have not the Christian inside the gates of the city already partaken of the water of life? Have not those on the inside of the gates already heard the Spirit and the bride say come? Yes and Yes, so who does that leave us with? Those WITHOUT the gates, who are those WITHOUT the gates? The dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Gods judgments when they come into the earth are so that the world might learn righteousness. One does not learn righteousness by being endlessly tormented.
God judgments all have a purpose, so what could the purpose of endless torment teach anyone?
________________________________________
Quote:
"once they learn to keep the commandments of God?" is not in Rev.22:14-17.
----------
...verse 14 states in the KJV
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Obviously one must learn to keep his commandments in order to have the right to the tree of life.
Quote:
Revelation 22:6-21 is a salutation of the prophesy, not a continuation of events of the prophesy.
----------
Revelation 22:14-17 is part of that salutation, and there is nothing within that text which suggests those without have any opportunity of repentance to be allowed into the city.
I disagree, there are no chapters or verses in the original scriptures, chapter 22 is a carryover of Chapter 21 for 22 starts off with (And he shewed me) which is not a salutation but something further God wanted John to see
Quote:
In fact, verse 11 tells us this:
Revelation 22
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
"Still" has a meaning of "from that time".
-----------
And that tells us what? That those who are filthy will be filthy from that time, how long is from that time?
You seem to believe from that time = eternity, but the word still/eti comes from the primary word etos which means a year. So they will be filthy for a year. This year of filthiness matches up nicely with what the Jews at the time of Christ understood about the fires of Gehenna. For they understood that those who entered into the fires of Gehenna did so for up to one year/12 months of purification and then were allowed out of the fire.
Quote:
The final separation is those (unfaithful) in the lake of fire (without the city) from those (faithful) in the New Jerusalem (in the city).
----------
If it is a final separation, how are those WITHOUT the gates allowed to enter into the city?
Obviously the faithful at this time are already in the city, so who is it that is WITHOUT that is allowed to ENTER?
Quote:
Matthew 25
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
There is a place PREPARED for spirit beings.
Spirit beings have no atonement, for there is no blood of spirit beings.
Once you become a spirit being (resurrection), there no longer is an atonement for you.
Quote:
You are cast into the lake of fire when you are a spirit being.
There is no atonement for you there.
----------
Two things
First if it is PREPARED it is NOT eternal.
Second That is your opinion but scripture tells us otherwise. Read my post 13 in the universalism section will angels someday be saved.
Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God
This is one of the best posts, if not the best I have seen concerning the lake of fire and how the liars etc are outside, this is one of the best evidence to support what LOF means in terms of a purging fire. Nicely written. I'm still not totally convinced but this is a big step in that direction of LOF = purging fire.
Good find jabcat
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I believe that was pneuma who posted it. Good stuff! :thumbsup:
Especially the part about Rev 22:11 "let him be filthy still" - still can have a meaning of "for a time" - not forever.
Although the counterpoint might be that it also says "let him be righteous still"... ? Filthy temporarily, but righteous forever?
Quote from: legoman on February 22, 2011, 08:43:25 PM
I believe that was pneuma who posted it. Good stuff! :thumbsup:
Especially the part about Rev 22:11 "let him be filthy still" - still can have a meaning of "for a time" - not forever.
Although the counterpoint might be that it also says "let him be righteous still"... ? Filthy temporarily, but righteous forever?
Yes it was Scott. I try to keep things anonymous (from Discussion Forums) unless it's copyrighted material that needs credited. But yes, that was from pneuma/Scott. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on February 22, 2011, 05:50:50 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 22, 2011, 10:08:57 AM
And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing."
--Eze 47:12
This is going somewhere, but I'm too tired to see where. :icon_king:
ALL men are Trees[ Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. aka - and the Righteuos Shall grow as CEDARS] - Leaves are a Covering - ALL life is GRASS = green-
Isa 40:6
Luk 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Jer 17:7 Blessed [is] the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
Jer 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and [that] spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
The River of Life[ WATERS] came from the Under the Temple [ EZ] spoken in John Jhn 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water
The Fruit\seed is GROWN in the WOMB= Garden = belly =MIND,...
Christ is the Tithe[ our increase] - the SEED of the Land and the FRUIT of the Trees[ all men are TREES]
Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the LORD
Deu 7:13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
Pro 18:20 A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; [and] with the increase of his lips shall he be filled
:icon_flower:
He is the RIVER ,we are the Trees, founded on the Tribes\Apostles , HE is the ROOTof the TREES, HE is the FRUIT of the Trees, who bears FRUITthrough US, the Trees :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
yep. That's exactly where it was going lol. :thumbsup: :icon_flower:
ALL men are trees walking. What kind of tree are you? You will
know them by their fruit. :icon_flower:
The fig will wither.
Others are gilded in GOLD!
All we have to offer him is Christ, the firstfruits of them that slept.
11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
13And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
--Lev 23
For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [ day] upon the earth:
--Job 19
1 Corinthians 15:20
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
--Job 19
yet in my flesh shall I see God
Yet what is my flesh but the golden fleece hanging upon the tree.
Okay, since KJV has been translated some 500 times since 1611, which one are we picking apart here to determine which people on this site are in the cool club? How, then, on earth can it possibly be inerrant? Is God perfect? If he is perfect, why did he create 3/4 of his children, his perfect creation, to burn eternally. It just don't make sense folks. I do believe Jesus is my Savior, but I don't need some other individual claiming me "saved", because I've said the magical words to him. God knows our hearts, and every single knee shall bow, and every single tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. What else do you want?
So true that God is perfect.
1 Tim 2;15.16 " Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of who I am the chief;
nevertheless on this account was mercy shown to me that Christ Jesus might show forth in me, the chief, His entire longsuffering for an example of them about to beielve on Him to age-abiding life."
Paul was a pharisee who knew all the laws and was a church going man of high repute. Yet he states here that he was the chief sinner.
He was saved as a demonstration that ALL will be saved.
Then in 1 Cor 15;2222,23 " For just as in the Adam all die, so also in the Christ shall ALL be made alive but each in his own rank; Christ a firstfruit, after that they who are in Christ's presence, afterwards the end whensoever he delivers up the kingdom to his God and Father."
Seems to state that there is a particualr process in order to a perfect plan that saves all in a particualr order.
The clearest illustration of this is like a production line. For the end product to be perfect there is a particular order or production line process. The end is great but each part of the process is in a particular order of events. Does not change the value of each part just puts them in a specific order.
Amen Ross.
I'm listing some more excellent posts by pneuma on the Book of Life, which he posted on another site that's been arguing for ET and has stated that believers on Jesus, who also believe in ultimate reconciliation, are not saved and are in the grips of a demonic doctrine. Sigh, gotta love'em anyway. If they've called on Jesus to save them, guess what? :bigGrin: I personally don't want to be in the position of saying who's not a Christian. I figure that's not up to me. But hey, some people think they've got the right I guess. :whistleshake: Thankfully we/mankind are not the judge, or else there'd be about 11 people going to heaven :laughing7: - if they're lucky.
Anyway, pneuma;
-- You have made the case that babies go to heaven because their name is written in the book of life, yet they have not confessed Jesus Christ as Lord before they died, so how then is it that their names are not blotted out with those who are blotted out? [note - He has made the argument which I also believe, that there is not a salvation of innocence taught in the scriptures. All must come through Jesus to get to the Father - jabcat].
You cannot have one standard for babies and one standard for adults concerning salvation. In order to be saved one MUST acknowledge Jesus Christ is Lord. You do away with that confession when you say babies are saved because their names are written in the book of life.
Also, you state that being written in the book of life does not mean one is saved, so again how is it that you then believe babies are saved because their names are written in the book of life?
The Book of life either equates with salvation or it does not equate with salvation.
So either all were saved and some lost their salvation or the book of life does not deal with salvation at all, but rather with whether one receives judgment or not. And being judged does not mean one cannot be saved, but rather Gods judgment is in order that the world might learn righteousness. So then without Gods judgment the world would not learn righteousness. And judgement(same judgment) MUST BEGIN with the house of God.
Quote:
We have now talked about so many scriptures that have a definite tone of finality.
Hi _____ . There is no finality shown concerning the book of life, the book of life only represents those who are not hurt of the second death, which is the sentence of the great white throne judgment.
Quote:
We see names blotted out, without any mention of being able to be written back in.
I agree, names are blotted out without any mention of them being written back in, but the book of life has nothing to do with the salvation of people, it deals with those who will rule and reign with Christ, those who have not overcome have their name blotted out of this book of life. [note - I personally suggest Romans 7 indicates that possibility - unless it's as pneuma says above, that the Book of Life is not about eternal destiny at all, but about ruling and reigning (eonian life) - jabcat].
The book of life deals with the ruling and reigning body of Christ and has nothing to do with whether one can be saved or not.
Quote:
We see folks thrown into the lake of fire, without any mention of an exit from it.
We don't? Who then are the liars, adulterers, and all those who are without the gate that are allowed to enter into the gates of the city once they learn to keep the commandments of God? Rev.22:14-17
This is AFTER all judgment has been passed, the gates are to the New Jerusalem. So if no one exits the second death who are those without the gates of the New Jerusalem who can drink of the water of life freely? Would not all Christians already be within the gates at this time?
Quote:
We see the OT prophets, NT parables, etc., all warning of the separation of the righteous from the unrighteous.
This constant mention of separation is definitely a warning, and not a "don't let it get to ya, everything will turn out OK for ya in the end".
I agree with the separation _____, but you stop at the judgment as if it is the end of all things, I look beyond the judgment to it purpose, which is in Isaiah 26:9
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
[add - For the Lord will not reject forever,
For if He causes grief,
Then He will have compassion
According to His abundant lovingkindness. Lamentations 3:31,32.]
Jab, I would love a fuller explanation of this
Quote:
We see folks thrown into the lake of fire, without any mention of an exit from it.
We don't? Who then are the liars, adulterers, and all those who are without the gate that are allowed to enter into the gates of the city once they learn to keep the commandments of God? Rev.22:14-17
This is AFTER all judgment has been passed, the gates are to the New Jerusalem. So if no one exits the second death who are those without the gates of the New Jerusalem who can drink of the water of life freely? Would not all Christians already be within the gates at this time?
I don't see that in the verses listed. Is there a fuller explanation of this? Where are the verses of those without gates, then allowed to enter after judgment?
Shawn, I'd have to look at it more closely, which I can do later. Did pneuma cover that in the last post of his I posted a couple of days ago (a little earlier in the thread)? A few thoughts I had, the first of which was never acknowledged by HansC when he was posting here; namely, that Paul's gospels go beyond Revelation, where he does show many other things occurring, including people being saved beyond the Revelation "judgments" - in fact, all of Israel and ALL being reconciled. Another thing I mention is Romans 7, which is an ultimate reconciliation story of the first order :). Then thirdly, I was just reading a few minutes ago in my daily "devotional", in the last chapter of Revelation (even if one did take Revelation as "the last book of the Bible, the end of the story, etc.") - within the last 4 or 5 verses, "the Spirit and the Bride are saying 'Come'". :thumbsup:
Does this address your question Shawn?
quote from pneuma; "The version you are using states
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
It really does not matter which version is correct because it show that those who keep his commandments or those who wash their robes are those who are WITHOUT the gates of the city. For how else can one ENTER the gates of the city unless they are on the OUTSIDE of the city.
So who are those that are WITHOUT the city gates?
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Or your version
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
Those OUTSIDE of the city gates are the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
So as the New Jerusalem has already been established who are those on the OUTSIDE of the city gates? Not Christian, they would be on the inside of the gates at this time. That leaves only one group of people. The dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." - end quote
This may be "answered" by some, that it's not previously unsaved getting saved and entering - (remember, they're "eternally blotted out" according to them); but rather, that it's the already saved that are passing in and out of the city (though not blotted out, getting saved, getting unsaved, getting re-saved?) :mshock: aka, "I'm a child of God, no I'm not, I'm a child of God again, no I'm not"....
P.S. Pneuma's contention is that the Book of Life is not about salvation anyway, but about overcomers/those ruling and reigning/aionian llife. If that's the case, then it sheds a different light on things anyway. I'm personally not sure. Either way, I just believe the "story" continues. :2c:
Ok, I see what he is saying. I can't say that Revelations is a chapter I understand. So, I have no idea if what he is saying is correct that Christians are already in. I had always assumed it was talking about believers.
Quote from: shawn on February 26, 2011, 05:56:15 PM
Jab, I would love a fuller explanation of this
Quote:
We see folks thrown into the lake of fire, without any mention of an exit from it.
We don't? Who then are the liars, adulterers, and all those who are without the gate that are allowed to enter into the gates of the city once they learn to keep the commandments of God? Rev.22:14-17
This is AFTER all judgment has been passed, the gates are to the New Jerusalem. So if no one exits the second death who are those without the gates of the New Jerusalem who can drink of the water of life freely? Would not all Christians already be within the gates at this time?
I don't see that in the verses listed. Is there a fuller explanation of this? Where are the verses of those without gates, then allowed to enter after judgment?
I went into this in some detail earlier in the topic. I agree with pneuma completely. The second death is for those who are
not in the book of life in the first and second resurrections- those who are in the BOL do not experience the "second death", which is the lake of fire- which in my opinion is submersion(baptism so to speak) in overwhelming light/fire (His eyes are as flames of fire... evrything that is hidden in darkness will be brought to light) until evry knee bows(phil 2:9,10) and every adversary is subjected (1 Cor 15:23-28) so that evrything is gathered into one in Christ(eph 1:9,10) and God is ALL IN ALL(1 Cor 15) because "From Him and through Him and to Him are all things" (Romans 11).
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/revelation_221819_taken_out_book_life_8986.msg117278.html#msg117278
However, as far as the city is concerned, it is NOW, in the ETERNAL MOMENT....Everything in Johns revelation is WAS<IS>IS TO COME, meaning true in the past present and future....This eternal moment WAS, IS & WILL BE the TODAY of God and it is SWALLOWING UP mortality and we will AWAKE in the fulness of it ON THE DAY..... in Hebrews 12 it says we HAVE COME(note the tense) to the
heavenly Jerusalem, to the Spirits of Righteous men made perfect(surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses), to the GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE FIRSTBORN REGISTERED IN HEAVEN(Book of Life-universal aionian overcomers church :o). That is why we must ABIDE.....CONTINUE IN THE WORD.The dogs and the sorcerers are outside NOW, they cannot get in until they come through the firelight of His eyes(Heb 4:12) & WASH THEIR ROBES IN WHITE. The Bride(heavenly Jerusalem) is
"coming down out of the heavens" NOW, (Jesus said "I am the bread of life that
comes down out of heaven)in the Spirit, among the overcomers in every generation wherever the body of Christ is truly revealed and the Bride is ADORNED and MADE READY, dressed in RIGHTEOUS ACTS. In a sense all of this is NOW for each of us, and it will be revealed in the moment of resurrection, whether it be to the resurrection of life or the resurection unto kolassis(fire/light/correction). That is why the wise virgins STAY IN THE NOW FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT WATCHING AND LISTENING FOR THE CALL .... THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH!!! They are able to "Come Out" far enough to make the WEDDING FEAST(union of Bride and Bridegroom). In order to be married you must "yield your body"(Romans 12:1-3). Awake o sleeper and arise form the dead and the light of Christ will shine on you. Come out of her, and be a clean and separate people!
Very interesting. I don't believe I have ever heard or read that take on the BoL, Revelations etc.
It is siimply my view, I am not trying to present it as doctrine. I think however that the scriptures support this view as well as any I have read so far.....but we see through a glass darkly :o)
While many try to argue historical view versus fulfilled view, I think both views are united in the "was and is and is to come" of the I AM, which is NOW....
The enemy Was and Is Not and Will Be- always in the past and future, never in the present.
The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it, but you dont kno where it is coming from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Phil. 1:6
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.. Heb. 12:2
In the following excerpt from J. Preston Eby's writings, I believe he's saying a couple of important things that orthodoxy/fundamentalism doesn't see/teach...what are your thoughts on Mr. Eby's view of the Book of Life?
"From our infancy we have all been accustomed to hear about the Lamb's book of Life, but how many of us know where the idea came from, and exactly what it stands for? Is it not possible that some of us have an inadequate and even a perverted notion as to the proper interpretation of the metaphor?
We have entertained such carnal notions when we come to the book of Revelation. The book of revelation is a book of revealing – and we are in an hour of revealing. The Holy Spirit must teach us the very first principles of this book – it is a book given by signs. "He sent and sign-i-fied it unto us..." (Rev. 1:1). The Lord communicated it unto us in the form of signs and symbols, that is what the Greek word means, and no symbol is ever to be taken in its literal form. We must pass the signs in order to get to the language of the Spirit.
Many ancient societies kept extensive genealogical records and registered citizens for different purposes (Neh. 7:5,64; 12:22-23). In the same way, the fact that God has a Book of Life shows that God is aware of all His creation, particularly those people with whom He is specially working. Paul wrote that the believers in Philippi should "help these women and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life" (Phil. 4:3). "For our citizenship is in heaven," he explained (Phil. 3:20). You can be sure these saints were encouraged by this acknowledgment.
What joy flooded my soul in the contemplation of my very own name written in heaven in the Lamb's Book of Life! However, in my early walk with God, it also seemed to me an easy matter to have one's name blotted out of that blessed Book. I was raised with a strict "pentecostal" and "holiness" mentality – and there was no security in our relationship with God. According to our tradition one could be saved by faith one moment and lost and doomed for hell the next moment by disobedience. You could be lost eternally simply by going to bed at night with unconfessed sin in your life. If you thought and evil thought, or committed some sinful act, and should die in the night before it was confessed and made right – you would "bust hell wide open." I do not hesitate to tell you, my beloved, that such an absurd and unscriptural concept IS HELL! But because of my struggles with youthful temptations and the flesh life, I was quite certain that God had appointed one particular angel exclusively to my case, and he was engaged in nothing else but writing my name in, and blotting it out again from the Book of Life!
THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB is the autobiography of God's Lamb, the record of who He is, what He is like, and what He does. Everything you always wanted to know about the Son of God is contained in this wonderful Book of the Life of the Lamb! It is not a literal book, of course, for the sons and daughters of the Most High are the LIVING RECORD AND REVELATION of the life of the indwelling Lamb. It was to the apostle Paul that the revelation was given that the Book of Life, the Book of the Lamb, the Book of the Son of God is a people. "Forasmuch as YOU are manifestly declared to be THE EPISTLE OF CHRIST ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. Who also has made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life" (II Cor. 3:3,6).
How pitiful that the people of earth for the most part have never read this beautiful epistle of Christ, this glorious BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB. They have poured over the books of religion, the books of man's theology, the books of hypocrisy, the books of fleshly wisdom, forms of godliness, dead doctrines, static creeds, empty rituals and ceremonies, and man-made rules and regulations. But precious few have ever seen THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB! Oh! What a wonderful gospel shall fill the earth beneath and the celestial realms above when God opens His holy Book of Life! The Book of Life is that blessed company of the sons of God, elect, chosen and transformed into the image of Christ throughout the ages. This Book is being carefully written word by word, sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph, page by page, and chapter by chapter in the nitty-gritty of our daily experience with God until the full revelation of the Christ shall be set forth therein. Time's clock is striking the hour and the time is drawing wonderfully nigh for the manifestation of the sons of God, the opening of God's Book of Life People, and what a manifestation it shall be! All creation from time immemorial has groaned and travailed for the manifestation of God's sons, to deliver creation at last from the bondage of corruption.
God has a MESSAGE for the world – the revelation of Jesus Christ! This message is being written in flaming words of glory upon the pages of the lives and hearts and minds of men and women who are dying to that impudent and death-dealing devil of self, in order to walk and live by the spirit of HIS LIFE. I am terribly at a loss of words to express the glory of God's BOOK OF LIFE COMPANY, but I can assure you that once it is fully ready, prepared and published it shall become the world's "best seller" throughout the ages to come! As the pen is mightier than the sword, so this Book, above any that has ever been written by the finger of man, shall alter the course of history, and the dark covering that has been cast over the minds and hearts of the people for ages and dispensations will be completely destroyed by the flood of transforming light and wisdom and knowledge and glory and power shining forth from the living pages of God's eternal and incorruptible BOOK OF LIFE!
HOW THE BOOK IS WRITTEN
I want to help you grasp why you are here – you are being prepared to reveal the invisible God to the visible creation...."
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/lb/LB1.htm
I have had approximately the same concept of "The Scroll of the Living(s)" that Eby expresses.
As well, in the language of the genetic code of the glorified Jesus, there is logical expression, the word of God being manifest in flesh. Oh! What just one immortal red blood platelet can do! the incorruptible and permanently existing components of Jesus' blood poured out into this universe!!!
I quoted a whole bunch of verses for context, but my point is verse 13. (and 15)
The person is blotted out/not remembered/spoken about for 1 generation.
So perhaps people are taken out of BoL for just 1 age?
ACVPsalms 109
1 Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise,
2 for they have opened against me the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of deceit. They have spoken to me with a lying tongue.
3 They have also encompassed me about with words of hatred, and fought against me without a cause.
4 For my love they are my adversaries, but I [make] prayer.
5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
6 Set thou a wicked man over him, and let an adversary stand at his right hand.
7 When he is judged, let him come forth guilty, and let his prayer be turned into sin.
8 Let his days be few, [and] let another take his office.
9 Let his sons be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
10 Let his sons be vagabonds, and beg, and let them seek out of their desolate places.
11 Let a creditor exact all that he has, and let strangers make spoil of his labor.
12 Let there be none to extend kindness to him, nor let there be any to have pity on his fatherless sons.
13 Let his posterity be cut off. In the generation following let their name be blotted out.
14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with LORD, and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15 Let them be before LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth,
16 because he did not remember to show kindness, but persecuted the poor and needy man, and the broken in heart, to kill.
17 Yea, he loved cursing, and it came to him. And he did not delight in blessing, and it was far from him.
18 He also clothed himself with cursing as with his garment, and it came into his inward parts like water, and like oil into his bones.
19 Let it be to him as the raiment with which he covers himself, and for the belt with which he is girded continually.
20 This is the reward of my adversaries from LORD, and of those who speak evil against my soul.
דּר / דּור
dôr
BDB Definition:
1) period, generation, habitation, dwelling
1a) period, age, generation (period of time)
1b) generation (those living during a period)
1c) generation (characterised by quality, condition, class of men)
1d) dwelling-place, habitation
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H1752
Same Word by TWOT Number: 418b
:cloud9: Blotted out for one generation is correct (see Psalm 109). A capital crime such as becoming a Christian had become as we are told in Acts, meant that the scribes were unable to talk about you for a generation, in effect, blotting your name out of the geneological records and records of exploits of that person, that the scribes were commissioned to record by the King. The NT writers, were in essence, commissioned by THE King, to write the geneologies, following the custom.
Jesus committed a capital crime according to the Pharisees (blasphemy) and so they themselves waited a generation to discuss Him (and others) in their Talmudic writings. Everything in there is done for a reason, according to pattern, and the Jew's part was to walk out the patterns for us to see. My :2c:
Possibility??: Those who believe have "passed from death into life"- hence their names are written in the Lambs book of life- death has no more reign over them "even tho he die yet shall he live". Those who are unbelieving, or have ceased to abide in Christ, are not done with death yet, so their names are not in written in, or perhaps are "blotted out" of the book of life. (Like branches "withered, cut off, gathered, burned John 15 with 1 Cor 3:13-17) It (BoL) is the list of those who have no more need of the "wages of sin" and are through with the consequence of separation and are to "enter the joy of their Lord"-which is aionios zoe).
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
We are to judge no one- only the Lord knows those who are His. We simply carry the word of reconciliation, the word of resurrection, the word of the Lordship and Kingdom of Jesus and a warning of the wrath to come.
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:14-16)
There are "believers" among all men, who, though their understanding may be unfruitful, show by their deeds (as the Samaritan man of the parable) that they agree with the law of God in their hearts. God, knowing the secrets of their hearts will vindicate them. At the same time some who proclaim "Lord, Lord" on the Day will need a little touch up in the fire- and find that their names have been "blotted out" of the Lamb's book.
"Blessed and holy are they who partake of the first resurrection, for over them the second death has no power"- so many possibilities :dbook: