Hi, how does this sit with UR?
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth vp for euer and euer. And they haue no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoeuer receyueth the marke of his name.
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html
Section C2
:2c: there's no peace[of mind or anything else] for the wicked. those who are possessed of the beast that was,is not,yet is...because of their agreement/or possesion with hell/and or the beast mindset
have no peace. wicked contrast in heaven..warring with angels...= dragon....wicked contrast possessing beasts[serpent most subtle beast of the field] the beast.....possessing mans body
known as man of sin or son of perdition.. Peace with God/man is of the Holy spirit........wild devouring ferocious nature of the wicked one..is of the wicked contrast spirit..........
clean unclean animals..gentle natured beasts or beasts of prey exhibit openly good/evil natures in contrast....clean unclean spirits.
no peace of mind is a tor-ment......thus eating an animal that had been torn......discerns the difference between the clean and unclean...what is of God and the fruit of the Holy spirit......
and what is not.
Chester, you must have quoted from the 1611 KJV, given the language. I looked up the verse on biblehub.com, in an interlinear version, and "for ever and ever" [euer and euer] is rendered as "ages of ages," and therefore not quite eternalistic forever.
ages of ages is the superlative..just as song of songs and Holy of Holies...it is an eternal end condition...but it does not speak of humankind but of the end of all adversarial conditions/wickedness
and the end of sin. just as the Holy of Holies symbolizes the perfect eternal,immortal state of being of God...that man enters into...so,too, the sin and wickedness has a consummation/end..
no more 'curse'..is the end of sin/disobedience and death and all enemies that have come against His holy city..[no weapon formed against you shall succeed. ..burning the weapons for
7 years[weapons of spiritual warfare[tools] by my spirit........weakness of flesh, deceiving spirits,temptations. sin,death......all the power of the enemy...overcome/vanquished.
it is an ETERNAL END OF SIN FOREVER...just as eternal life immortality is forever....man transitions/or is translated/changed from the image of the corrupt....into the incorrupt new creature.
bears the image of corruptible..while in weak flesh/sin influence...and is delivered from the 'wicked/evil one" in the end...the temporal is divided off as it concerns mankind . how I read it.
:2c:where there is no wood the fire goes out. ..but the stench of the smoke in His nose will come to an utter end...an end of sin.
Amen! And also in the Greek, it's not "those who worship the beast" but "those worshiping the beast".. no rest, no peace day or night.. for those worshiping the beast..
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm
P.S. - also notice Jude 7 - the example of the eternal - as translated - fire is the judgment of Sodom and Gamorrah.. but where is the flames.. the smoke now? yet it is remembered, long remembered.. the smoke rising up - metaphor?
:Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on March 04, 2017, 04:16:45 AM
Amen! And also in the Greek, it's not "those who worship the beast" but "those worshiping the beast".. no rest, no peace day or night.. for those worshiping the beast..
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm
Which is even happening now. Those worshiping the beast now I'm sure do not have rest because "come to me, all you who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest" (and who isn't weary of the troubles in this life?" therefore as long as they worship the beast and do not come to Him, they will have no rest.
Lazarus, yes 1611 KJV.
I'm still confused.
Does God not also save the beast? Or destroy the beast? The beast here is the Devil?
Quote from: chester-blowfold on March 04, 2017, 06:17:53 PM
Lazarus, yes 1611 KJV.
I'm still confused.
Does God not also save the beast? Or destroy the beast? The beast here is the Devil?
As far as I know, the Bible is not clear on the ultimate fate of Satan/Lucifer/devil, various demons, the Beast or the False Prophet. That does not diminish the glory awaiting the Sons of God. :dsunny:
I was thinking of the beast as the adversary (Satan) too..
And like GodisLove (GiL) said
Quote from: GodIsLove on March 04, 2017, 05:16:40 PM
Which is even happening now. Those worshiping the beast now I'm sure do not have rest because "come to me, all you who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest" (and who isn't weary of the troubles in this life?" therefore as long as they worship the beast and do not come to Him, they will have no rest.
Amen!!
......How could anyone worshiping the beast not be in torment!? :friendstu:
....Yet actually the beast of this verse is the larger beast of Rev chapter 13, which is verses 1-10 (as opposed to the smaller beast of the chapter, which is thought to be a person, verses 11-18, the one who's number we have.. -- But to worship it, surely, is to worship the spirit beast, called serpent, satan and dragon..
The first beast of the chapter has ten horns -which surely(?) equates to the ten toes of the world empire statue of Daniel chapter 2, the last empire of man before the Lord's return. (Also with the "more terrible beast" of Daniel chapter 7 (especially verses 7 and 19).
So it seems the beast we are talking about is indeed a larger beast, as it's an 'empire'. (Whereas the 2nd one of the chapter is thought to be an individual / or an office!? 13:13.)
It's this world beast / governing which is
thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation chapter 19 - along with the
false prophet - both are thrown
alive into the LOF.
Am i crazy for thinking this larger beast is not a living being - though ruled by satan - (like filling an idol?) - but is an institute of man
active (very much alive in the world) at the time of the Lord's return?
I also do not think the false prophet (teacher, teaching? philosophy?
theory which caused christendom to fall away?) to be a person.
It's interesting (to me anyway :smile: ) that we can say (or so i believe) that up to this point - no humans in the lake of fire..
:Peace2:
Quote from: chester-blowfold on March 03, 2017, 12:48:16 AM
Hi, how does this sit with UR?
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth vp for euer and euer. And they haue no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoeuer receyueth the marke of his name.
in the Greek it reads, 'into the ages of (the) ages'...if it's forever why isnt the Greek word for forever, 'adios', used ?...something else is going on here
Quote from: chester-blowfold on March 03, 2017, 12:48:16 AM
Hi, how does this sit with UR?
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth vp for euer and euer. And they haue no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoeuer receyueth the marke of his name.
I see a correlation with Isaiah 9
Surely wickedness burns like a fire;
it consumes briers and thorns,
it sets the forest thickets ablaze,
so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke.
19 By the wrath of the Lord Almighty
the land will be scorched
and the people will be fuel for the fire;
they will not spare one another.
20 On the right they will devour,
but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
but not be satisfied.
I think it has to do with sin and how God depicts it as a destructive thing that causes torment. He compares sin to fire multiple times in the Bible.
It's also interesting that Rev 14 compares it to the wine of his wrath, which makes them drunk, he even says that people are put into a wine press and they themselves are pressed into it. Almost like he is saying they themselves are made into the same wine that makes them mad just like they are fuel for the fire in Isaiah 9.
I think God uses sin for a judgment to make people desire salvation.
I think the point lies more within the question of 'ages of ages' (aions) and what that actually means ....does it mean eternity, or something else, in this passage.I've read that 'aion', in the mind of the Hebrew writers of the Bible (writing with a Hebrew mindset) equated to 'olam' in the OT...if so, this phrase does not mean 'forever and ever' but 'olams of olams'....and olam, as we know, can have a range of meanings..in terms of duration and 'time' etc.
Perhaps it's best to look (first) at an easier verse. Mat 25:46
Olam
Olam - H5769
BDB Definition:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
Olam is rooted in the word
Alam - H5956
BDB Definition:
1) to conceal, hide, be hidden, be concealed, be secret
1a) (Qal) secret (participle)
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be concealed
1b2) concealed, dissembler (participle)
1c) (Hiphil) to conceal, hide
1d) (Hithpael) to hide oneself
The meaning of the root Alam, is important to fully understand Olam.
Alam clear has the meaning of an obscure hidden something.
Exod 21:6 Then his master shall bring him to the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or to the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever (olam).
This olam lasts until the slave died. It's was of an obscure duration (olam) because it was unknown how long the slave would live.
Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
...
Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever (olam): yet have you brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Jonah was only 3 days in the fish but because he didn't know when he would get out it was of obscure duration (olam)
When olam is used as a noun it has the meaning of a period of time with an obscure unknown duration, as in the above verses.
When used as an adjective olam refers to an obscure source. A type, not a duration. An adjective describes something or someone.
Gen 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting (olam) God.
That verse isn't about the age of God. It's about His nature. Nobody really fully knows Him because He's hidden and too complex to understand.
The color red. → Red is an noun.
A red car. → Car is a noun and red is an adjective.
The olam. → Olam is a noun.
The olam God → Olam is an adjective and God is a noun.
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting (olam) punishment: but the righteous into eternal (olam) life.
Punishment and life are both nouns.
Everlasting and eternal are both adjectives.
I'm fully aware the Greek NT reads aionios and not olam, but the Aramaic NT reads olam. And in the LXX olam is translated as aionios. Click
So the correct translation is:
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into God's punishment:
but the righteous into God's life.
A more literal translation would have something like 'obscure source' but because we know the source I've used God. So Matt 25:46 doesn't mention any duration.
As you can see here http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev14.pdf "ages of ages" might not be the best possible translation.
One of the ages is accusative and the other genitive (possession)
http://www.grammar-monster.com/glossary/genitive_case.htm
http://www.grammar-monster.com/glossary/accusative_case.htm
So while in Mat. it's all about the orgin, in Rev 14:11 is may be a combination of origin and duration.
The issue with aion and olam is, in my opinion, this. aion is the translated form(Hebrew/Aramaic) of olam, as WW pointed out.. Olam was not a time specific word. It was inclusive of the concept of the "world" of any given time, and it was always indefinite. That is why in a few places we see aion translated as "world", like in hebrews 1 "through whom He created the worlds"- where worlds is the Grk word aion. So in some places we see "olam" translated "ancient times" in one version and "the ancient world" in another. So the eternal fire in Matthew 25 is the "aionion pyr" in Greek and it is "olam esh" in Aramaic. Olam is an indefinite adjective here. Not a "time descriptor" of "esh/fire". It is the "fire of the world to come" or the "age to come" or the "world/age" to come.
It is unknown, it is beyond immediate view or absolute description, it is seen through a glass darkly. it is not forever, it is beyond present knowing. It will be experienced by those who experience it because they would not let the fire burn now, in this life, as all wee who have heard the word and cling to Christ are called to do- be purified by fire.
12Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial that has come upon you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you share in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed at the revelation of His glory. 1 Peter 4
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer various trials, 7so that the authenticity of your faith — more precious than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire — may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Pet 1
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 1 Cor 3
In the last verse especially, we see very clearly that the fire purges and saves.
Amen!
...Also, when I think of this world and planet and what's going on and always has gone on.. I think how man's ways result in "scorched earth" (quote, brother Seth)
The proof.
Life 'apart' from God/Life, ultimately is not possible.. imperfection in the world can only result in dog eat dog, abuses, oppressions.. etc, etc.. and "scorched earth" - funny how our splitting the atom resulted in (yet more, bigger) fire...
The two harvests of the earth.. 1 - the fruit of righteousness/Jesus.. the elect
and 2 - the fruit of unrighteousness, which too, is being allowed to fully mature
two harvests (Rev 14).. that into His barn(1), and the fully mature grapes of wrath(2).. How low can the wayward heart (the heart not in union with Him) go? Well, the 'beast' (R 13:1-10 - institution not being/individual/office of 11-18) "ascends out of a bottomless pit"..
The proof is in the pudding! (I don't know exactly what that saying means :laugh2: )
And the proof we are living through and all are experiencing - that anything, anything at all, NOT built on The Rock, can only 'crash and burn' (as the saying goes). And the smoke of that crash will rise up "for ever" and "ever" in every heart, mind and psyche.. both the individual aNd, the collective crashing and burning.
They will look upon the bodies, where the worm does not die, and the fire does not consume.. the dead body - more and more, I believe is my own flawed, imperfect, not yet born again character.. yep.. a rotting corpse.. that "misses the mark" character, the one not in union (full union) with life/God.. will be an abhorring (we will never forget - the smoke of its demise and burning - rising up, in our psyche, for ever and ever).
just my :2c:
well, whatever 'ages of ages' exactly means, it's reprehensible of hellists to hijack the sublties and nuances of the word and change the meaning of aion/ olam to 'everlasting/ eternal without end'..in order to suit their own agenda.
all of this stuff is dealing with eternity...the next existence, which is so far beyond our current understanding and comprehension that it's like trying to explain the workings of this world to an ant.One thing I do know for sure, if God wanted to make certain we humans knew that people suffered FOREVER in Hell He would have chosen a Greek word that definitely means FOREVER and not a Greek word like 'aion' which has a range of meanings.For, 'God is not the author of confusion' (1 Corinthians 14: 33 )
Quote from: darryl on March 11, 2017, 01:06:47 AM
all of this stuff is dealing with eternity...the next existence, which is so far beyond our current understanding and comprehension that it's like trying to explain the workings of this world to an ant.One thing I do know for sure, if God wanted to make certain we humans knew that people suffered FOREVER in Hell He would have chosen a Greek word that definitely means FOREVER and not a Greek word like 'aion' which has a range of meanings.For, 'God is not the author of confusion' (1 Corinthians 14: 33 )
YES!
Quote from: chester-blowfold on March 03, 2017, 12:48:16 AM
Hi, how does this sit with UR?
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth vp for euer and euer. And they haue no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoeuer receyueth the marke of his name.
Works for me as long as a few points are clarified first.
Such as hell was a location that had to be in place for both bruises of Ge:3:15 to be completed. Since angels are immortal beings they are put in their part of hell while being chained up. All fallen angels that ever fell are in that Pit since the time of the flood. When Enoch mentioned this it was a prophecy, when Moses mentioned it it was a past event.
Jude:1:14:
And Enoch also,
the seventh from Adam,
prophesied of these,
saying,
Behold,
the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
De:33:2:
And he said,
The LORD came from Sinai,
and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran,
and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
One of these fallen angels is released when the 5th trump sounds and 42 months later it is sent to the fiery lake because it had already been in the Pit. Satan is the last fallen angel to be put into the Pit and the men that die on that same day can see him on the other side of a locked gate. A gate that is only unlocked at the GWT event which is after the last fallen angel has been sent there.
The men that are alive for the 1,000 year reign are perfected so they are not harmed by the same fire that melts the earth.
Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
Zec:13:9:
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.
Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Isa:65:12-17:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
Heb:12:3-13:
For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself,
lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood,
striving against sin.
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,
My son,
despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening,
God dealeth with you as with sons;
for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement,
whereof all are partakers,
then are ye bastards,
and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us,
and we gave them reverence:
shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits,
and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure;
but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous,
but grievous:
nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down,
and the feeble knees;
And make straight paths for your feet,
lest that which is lame be turned out of the way;
but let it rather be healed.
:2c: man can also be saved by this Holy fire......n the road when Jesus opened the scriptures unto them and set their hearts on fire.
mankind as waters covering the earth....when the fire of the 'sun/ SON shines on them rises as clouds in the heavens.
Heavenly altars..after the pattern of temple arrangement.....consume with fire flesh with no life in it[animals as men without
understanding]....and a pleasing aroma of the smoke at it's ascension rises in the heavens.[fleshly carnal man without understanding
labour by the sweat of their brow for substinance unto they return unto the dust 1st Adam] the last Adam becomes a quickening spirit]
the heralding angels sang of the birth of a son to the shepherds of the flock marked for slaughter. Men are like sheep among wolves
in this world..[daily sacrifices morning and evening]..and the Good shepherd saw the wolf coming and laid down his life for the
sheep.[you men are the sheep of my pasture]
morning and evening sacrifices after the pattern of heaven..symbolize the gates of the Holy city open continually to receive the
redeemed spirits of men..no temple in it...in spirit form as the new creature.
:2c: Zephania 3;3 her princes[of this world] are roaring lions[satan/accuser seeking who he may devour] her judges
as evening wolves[ravenous to devour] God waived judgement...in favour of mercy and redemption..Jesus said 'I judge no man"
I come not to condemn but to save that which was lost[sheep/men][you without sin throw the first stone]
a lot of wood hay stubble has been built upon.....the gospel of the salvation of all men...gospel angels/messengers of false-christs
...do you not know ye shall judge angels/messengers of the gospel? with their lying signs/lying scales?
His fiery jealousy will consume the wolves/false shepherds..false teachings...as hay wood stubble...and men will find His
consuming them will be life to them. Unless the Lord build the house they labour in vain. who shall build the Lord's house?
Jesus only will raise it up..........the bridegroom builds the house and receives his bride into it.
the work of mens hands provide his food until he returns unto the dust....the work of God's hands..both right arm[Jesus]
and left arm[Holy spirit] provides for those who spin and toil not......Jesus said ' why pay money for bread that is not bread/I am
the true bread from heaven" Come...take life's wters free..............I tell you a secret......'we shall ALL not sleep in death.....but
WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED"
we have but a token on this side of the veil.....10 talents at the most do we receive on this ...10% [Genesis 14;18-23.]
bread and wine of Christ...Melchezedek.....refusing the king of Sodom...not a shoelace...even John the Baptist knew his ministry
must decrease under law...judgements and condemnation as a ministry of death....that Christ's should increase in salvation/mercy
unto all...and the free gift. many unworthy ones have laced up...and gone forth trampling with a false condemnatory gospel....
certainly not a gospel of good news unto all men..Peace unto him both near and far off
even Moses..was told to remove his sandals at the burning bush...........
:2c: now is the time to grow into the fullness of Christ..the ALL that has been given unto Him..to raise up. Now is the time
to give a drink of the waters of life,to cover their nakedness with His blood..to visit them in their sin-sickness..and prisons where
they are bound up in disobedience in this sinfull flesh
Now is the time to tell them there are many robbers and thieves in the ministry..to follow the Holy spirit ..that would both rob man
and rob God. He wants ALL the fruit of the Christ deVine....and this is ALL THE FRUIT.....WHEN I TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR SINS.
He did that on His cross...by His knowledge He has justified the many that took the wide road of destruction in this life..by His
knowledge He bore our sins and put up with much long-suffering our corrupt weak vessels...in order to show the richness of
His mercy unto us..when He raises us up in incorruption. O'Yes...He will appear unto us again separate from sin.........and we shall
be just like Him....
....if all men are to be raised up in Christ likeness and image...as incorruptible/immortal...who is going to judge/condemn them?
...if Christ died for the sins of all in Adam..that they may have eternal life as a free gift not of themselves........ have not they already
died their appointed one time before their resurrection? have they not already received the wages of sin in their death?
you were sold for nothing and with nothing ye shall be redeemed...and yet the potters field was bought with 30 pieces of silver....
the price of a servant...the SERVANT of the Lord..what a high price! He bought the potters field of the poor......to remake/over
the flawed vessels that were marred by sin. Does He not have authority to make of the same lump?
Whose our High Priest? who bought us/redeemed us//created us? Who come in the likeness of our sinful flesh and laid it down
for us? satan? who give him[devil] the right to accuse judge condemn the work of God's sons. we are oft judged of men down
here... sinful men at that
the Father judges no man...Jesus said 'I judge no man" and we hear''''''those that perished would have repented...and raise up in
judgement against this wicked generation... There are generations of vipers down here..satan's angels...that blind men/deceive
....the same generation that perishes in the wilderness as the scape goat...the same that didn't enter Canaan...the same that
will not enter into God's presence again..the same that Judas portrayed as 'son of perdition" and their wicked works are exhibited
openly through the corruptible /weak flesh of men. the expulsion from the garden of Eden portrayed it...Judas portrayed it.....Hamaan
and many many examples we have..openly displayed throughout the history and presently...these works of the devil will be broke up
iron rod smashes the clay vessels...man's flesh body dissolves into dust.
the earth helps the woman[Jerusalem Above] it opens it's mouth and swallows our bodies of dust....Have no fear Mother of the
children[Jerusalem Above Mother of our spirits] I will bring them up from the grave. The righteous die..and no-one takes it to heart
.....they rest in the grave[our fleshly dust bodies no longer a slave/servant of sin] ....but it is to be spared from the wickedness that
is to come.
there is a SABBATH DUE....a day of rest and re-creation. Adam fell on the Sabbath..on Father's day of rest..and on this
next Sabbath man shall be raised up out of the pit in which he fell......is it lawful to kill or heal on the Sabbath?Jesus directed
this at the offspring of vipers who were the original liar/mankiller from the beginning.
Along with end of the Great 1000 year Sabbath day..of which all men are to be lifted out of the pit.....satan is loosed from
his abyss....and goes forth to surround the camp of the Holy city[man with his free gift of life of the spirit] and fire comes down
out of heaven and consumes them. Because the wicked one surrounds the righteous..right judgement does not go forth.
enemies like to surround cities/camps...and cut off food and water of life.........but if ye drink of Him...out of your bellies will flow
living water...and ye will have bread to eat that they know not of.
John 3;5 Verily,verily...I say unto thee..unless a man is be born of water and of the spirit..he can not see the kingdom of God.
Zeal for his Father's house consumed him...he turned over their tables...those robbers and thieves.....that make merchandize
.[..that sell the righteous for a pair of sandals[girl] and a boy for wine[filthy wine of fornication/Babylon= spiritually drunk like wicked
servant]
ps Jehovah's witness actually tell their congregation that if you are disfellowshipped God will not hear your prayers....example
of those robbing God...Father's House of prayer for ALL men
ALL in ALL GREAT GRACE has been given unto ALL men....For the Glory of the Father and His son.
Honour the Father and Mother[Jerusalem Above] raven will pick your eye out if you fail to...but it is better to pluck your eye out
if it offends you....
now the serpent is the Most Subtil Beast of the field.......
Quote from: MHz on March 17, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
Works for me as long as a few points are clarified first.
Greetings MHz! :hiya: (Of course here at tentmaker forum the belief is no one can live to the ages, unless/until they believe - Repent, are Reconciled and Renewed.. what I consider the 3 r's :laughing7:
Quote from: MHz on March 17, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
Such as hell was a location that had to be in place for both bruises of Ge:3:15 to be completed. Since angels are immortal beings they are put in their part of hell while being chained up.
I've never perceived it like that when reading.. but as they left their first position and state, they became then imperfect, and being thus, they cannot now reverse their course and make theirself perfect, thus they are locked into darkness - "in chains of darkness" the chains being metaphor but the darkness most literal..
Genesis 3:15 - the adversary will bruise Messiah's heel (the crucifixion) but Messiah will bruise the adversary's head (defeat him, deal him the head blow)
Quote from: MHz on March 17, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
All fallen angels that ever fell are in that Pit since the time of the flood.
I've heard this before but have never come across it in the scripture.. :Chinscratch: ..but left their first place/estate/position and are now locked into darkness..
2 Peter 2:4
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus did deliver [them] (to the deepest abyss of the greek mythical hades, metaphor for deepest/darkest darkness, a state/condition of being?) to judgment having been reserved,Quote from: MHz on March 17, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
When Enoch mentioned this it was a prophecy, when Moses mentioned it it was a past event.
Jude:1:14:
And Enoch also,
the seventh from Adam,
prophesied of these,
..which Jude was referring to people who were infiltrating the faith.. seemingly inspired by these raging winds like foam tossed of the seas..
Quote from: MHz on March 17, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
saying,
Behold,
the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Amen the resurrection of all dead/asleep in Jesus believers and believers alive at His return, rise and meet Him at His return as He proceeds to Mt of Olives..
:dsunny:
Quote from: MHz on March 17, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
De:33:2:
And he said,
The LORD came from Sinai,
and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran,
and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
"Our God
is a consuming fire"
Quote from: MHz on March 17, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
One of these fallen angels is released when the 5th trump sounds
..from the bottomless pit/abyss of potential evil that can reside in the wayward creature, be they angel or man? "Out of the smoke" of Joel's dry and smoky day comes? (something not good :eek: :eek: ) - "Jesus said, `do not weep for me, but for children's' children, for if they do this (crucify Him) in a green leaf, what will they do in the dry leaf?" (cr, Rev 12:16?)
Quote from: MHz on March 17, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
when the 5th trump sounds and 42 months later it is sent to the fiery lake because it had already been in the Pit. Satan is the last fallen angel to be put into the Pit and the men that die on that same day can see him on the other side of a locked gate. A gate that is only unlocked at the GWT event which is after the last fallen angel has been sent there.
Revelation 20:
1-320 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
Revelation 20:
77 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (for a little while)
then,
Revelation 20:10-12 (a little later)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. [note - "forever" in the scriptures - the Literal is "aion"-"an age, a cycle of time". And forever and ever is "aion to aion" - an age, a cycle of time to an age, a cycle of time]
The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened.
I believe the 3.5's are a telescoping like prophecy telescopes.. sort of, anyway.. with the first one of Revelation - the 1,260 of Rev 12:6 "and the woman" (the faith) "flees" (after 70 A.D.) "..to a place prepared, where she is nourished 1,260 days.." I believe is years.
Then the 3.5 of Rev 12:14, the woman/the faith flees after persecution (inquisition?) via the wings of an eagle to fly (sail?) to another place where she is kept safe from the face of the dragon (and serpent guise, next verse) for "a time, times and half a time - 3.5 - here, I believe it is 3.5 centuries..
The 1,260 days the the two witnesses prophecy (Rev chapter 11) being literal days, 3.5 years; and the 3.5 days in which their bodies lie dead in the sight of the nations, being literal days..
A progression in the 3.5's use.. from 1,260 years (after 1st major migration of the faith in history) to 350 years (after a 2nd for the most part migration of the faith/believers, Rev 12, being an insert and total history of the faith on earth) to 3.5 years of the two witnesses prophesying to the 3.5 days in which they lie dead in the street..
Quote from: MHz on March 17, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
The men that are alive for the 1,000 year reign are perfected so they are not harmed by the same fire that melts the earth.
At this point, isn't it the owrks of man upon Earth which are burned up?.. And the Earth itself being consumed in that day (the ReaL Tabernacles) after the GWT judgment 'day', whan "ALL things are made new" and "God Himself will Tabernacle with mankind upon a new Earth" within a universe also made new... "Behold I make ALL things new" - "All things in heaven and earth having been gathered into Jesus" Col 1:20 and Eph 1:10.
Quote from: MHz on March 17, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
Zec:13:9:
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.
Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Isa:65:12-17:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
Heb:12:3-13:
For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself,
lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood,
striving against sin.
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,
My son,
despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening,
God dealeth with you as with sons;
for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement,
whereof all are partakers,
then are ye bastards,
and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us,
and we gave them reverence:
shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits,
and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure;
but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous,
but grievous:
nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down,
and the feeble knees;
And make straight paths for your feet,
lest that which is lame be turned out of the way;
but let it rather be healed.
I totally agree there will be a 'day' when for some there shall be weeping, gnashing of teeth and torment.. for instance, one who tortured children, surely will experience torment!! And rightly so! But there is no "for ever" but is aion, eon, age...
:gsmile: God bless!!
Quote from: chester-blowfold on March 03, 2017, 12:48:16 AM
Hi, how does this sit with UR?
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth vp for euer and euer. And they haue no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoeuer receyueth the marke of his name.
The message is to the ones that take the mark of the Beast (a permit to be a Merchant in the 3 1/2 years that follow the 5th trump sounding) and during the 4 days the two witnesses Satan and Co can set up some tents like Moses dis and then erect a false throne. The false throne is the 'image' that is introduced in Re:13 and it is to be worshiped like the Beast from the Pit, aka fallen angel who had a kingdom before the flood. Both have to be done before the punishment can be applied. Consumers do not sell thing, they only buy and they would not be invited to Satan's Babylon for ant reason.
The words are for any gentile in the area known as Judea in the Bible rather than they are from that Tribe and are there.
The ones listed as being there is the same group that 'donates' the 7,000 men that God kills in an earthquake just after they all see the two dead witnesses get raised up to rain cloud height. The ones that see both of those events are the ones that 'give glory to God' and they have to runaway very fast or they will die because they are a sinner rather than a repented person.
Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword,
and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
M't:24:11-20:
And many false prophets shall rise,
and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound,
the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end,
the same shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth, let him understand:)Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
And woe unto them that are with child,
and to them that give suck in those days!
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter,
neither on the sabbath day:
Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
2Th:2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.