It says in Rev 21:8
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars--their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
The unbelievers are already mentioned! Are we to conclude that the others are Believers, as in Mark 9:48 "EVERYONE is salted with Fire"?
In another forum that I post on my sig line is "we need a good fire!"
The symbolism is taken for granted. In this day "we judge ourselves that who should not be judged with the world". In judging myself through prayer, introspection, repentance ect......I've learned that the correction of God is full of mercy and love. There has never been a time when I felt alone. I always believed that God is right there by my side.
When this life is over and we come face to face with "the lamb", I can't imagine not having some type of correction. I take it for granted.
Will be interesting to see what others have to say about the book of Revelation.
Great questions God Chaser and and see what you are saying !!!
Ed , good reply .......
I just keep in mind that everyone has either the'' mark'' or the ''seal '
those that are marked are still , I was once in the flames and fear and torment of unbelief ,
and those whom are sealed have been though the fires and are able to endure the Fire Isaiah 30 , 31 ,32 and 33 which is awesome , this prophecy is also described in Rev to me plainly , ZION the consuming place of fire and LIGHT OF GOD
the flesh fears the fire
the Spirit is born of Holy Spirit & Fire
Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
consider the firey seraph , whom cries holy , holy , holy is God Almighty continually
and how they attend the Lord here
cleansing Isiahs lips for the declaring of the Lord
Isa 6:1 ¶ In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 ¶ Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
its seems a language hard to understand in human terms
But Spiritually we can see its all about cleansing making pure and Holy before the presence of God it seems
Quote from: God Chaser on February 15, 2014, 09:28:06 PM
It says in Rev 21:8
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars--their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
The unbelievers are already mentioned! Are we to conclude that the others are Believers, as in Mark 9:48 "EVERYONE is salted with Fire"?
Everyone is salted with fire, according to Jesus. IMO it is not all in the same way in the same place at the same time tho. ("As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive, but each in his own order)
Quote from: God Chaser on February 15, 2014, 09:28:06 PM
It says in Rev 21:8
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars--their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
The unbelievers are already mentioned! Are we to conclude that the others are Believers, as in Mark 9:48 "EVERYONE is salted with Fire"?
Short answer? Most definitely
Why would we conclude that believers are included in the lake of fire when Jesus says the one who believes in me has passed from death unto life? Or when Jesus says, "These shall go away into kolassin(correction) aionion and the righteous into zoen(life) aionion" Mt 25:46 IMO,The second death is for those who are still adversaries. "Sit thou at my right hand until I make all thine enemies a footstool for your feet."
"He that overcomes will sit with me on my throne"
A believer in right standing with God is free from judgment, sin has been judged for him/her already in the body of Jesus Christ by whom every accusation has been nailed to the cross for those who believe and by whose blood their sins are forgiven, washed away into the sea of forgetfulness.
Any question is legitimate, any hypothesis worth investigation, but conclude? I don't know about that, there is significant evidence for a different conclusion, imo. :o)
James warned all believers to take care, that the tongue is a fire which steers the course of their nature like a ship into a furnace. If believers choose sin over life they will find themselves in the LOF needing salvation.
Believers are always in the fire of God because our God is a consuming fire. As to whether that fire is kindling upon some unconfessed willful sin, or purging out some hidden alloy like self righteousness or pride, or is causing the gold to shine like burnished bronze, depends on the secrets of the heart before the flaming eyes of Jesus.
The lake of fire, in my opinion, is a particular manifestation of the light/fire prepared for the devil and his angels and into which certain people will go in order to be purged/broken/exposed.
The idea of going into the lake of fire needing salvation is ok by me except that that terminology is so corrupted by the systematic theology of ET and ED. It leads into a discussion about "losing one's salvation" which then leads into other unproductive ideas about being saved from hell/fire/etc.
What we are saved from is ourselves, our willfulness, "the lust of the eyes, the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life" and all that, but what we are PRIMARILY saved from(healed/delivered/made whole-sozo) is ADAM.
Peter proclaimed on the day of Pentecost, "Be saved(healed/delivered/made whole) from this perverse(twisted, corrupted, damaged) generation". This generation in Adam is being gathered into Christ(second Adam/New Creation) by the "good news" of God's good will toward men and the reconciliation available through faith in Jesus.
Then there is the fire that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 3 "Everyones work will be tried in the fire because the day will bring it to light(exposing the hidden motives for the work) and it will be revealed with fire and the fire will test the quality of each mans work. If what has been built survives the person will receive a reward. If what has been built is burned up the person will lose their reward but they will be saved- but as one passing through flames."
To me this does not speak of the lake of fire, but rather the judgment seat of Christ that Paul speaks of(Rom 14:10, 2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:13-15) where evry believr will be judged for the works done in the body(as a believer in the lifetime in the flesh).
Jesus, on the other hand spoke of believers(Lord,Lord) being cast into the fire prepared for the devil and His angels....but were they really believers(I don't know)? He says, Depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels- I did not know you, or I do not know you. This is why I am not high on formulaic salvation, or the traditional definition of salvation- which I believe comes from ET theological systems. There fault was that works of love did not accompany there confession of Lordship(Lord,Lord). If Jesus is Lord we will do certain things and if we do none then perhaps our confession is empty of self knowledge or of knowing Him.
So yea, I think believers who fall away from the living God can wind up in the lake of fire- but not unless the nature of their departure involves egregious and persistent willful sin or deception to the point of having become again adversarial to Christ, His ways and the gospel. They will be brought to repentance there together, angels, demons, false prophets, unrighteous stewards, hypocrites, murderers and predators of all kinds- every knee will bow and every tongue confess...untill every adversary is subject to the Lordship of Christ, gathered into one in Him and presented to the Father as God becomes all in all.
But to finish(finally :laughing7:)- The lake of fire, whatever it actually is, is not for believers in right-standing, believers still branches in the vine, believers still members of the body and standing before their God in the gift of righteousness that is by grace through faith to all who believe. They are washed, they are sanctified, they will be glorified in the name of Jesus Christ by the Spirit of our God(1 Cor. 6:11) It(LOF) is for those whose names were not found in the Lambs book of life. I note that (Rev 3:15) it is written that Jesus said, "He that overcomes(believes to the end)will be clothed in white rainment and I will not blot his name out of the book of life but I will confess his name before the Father...
so perhaps the "Lord, Lord" folks had their names blotted out of the Lamb's book for their hypocrisy, but what we hav to watch out for is a message to people who are in Christ but struggling with sin that they will go into the LOF. We don't know that. Paul and James and John do not present that. Rather they present,
"Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another and you will be healed"(iathete- same as "by His wounds u were healed")- James
"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"- John
"If you find a brother in a fault, those who are spiritual among you(humble, mature, gentle, walking in love and wisdom) restore such a one in a spirit of meekness concidering your own selves(knowing that we are all prone to sin)" - Paul
So really all of these things are seen through a glass darkly, which is sorta my point.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 16, 2014, 08:42:01 PM
Believers are always in the fire of God because our God is a consuming fire. As to whether that fire is kindling upon some unconfessed willful sin, or purging out some hidden alloy like self righteousness or pride, or is causing the gold to shine like burnished bronze, depends on the secrets of the heart before the flaming eyes of Jesus.
Well, the fire of God is a very general term, which I am fine with. I believe fire is a very general image in the Bible related to God's judgment. The manifestation of that judgment can be different depending on who is being judged. For example, in 2 Peter, the apostle compares the Day of the Lord to the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah, saying,
2 Peter 2
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
This is what Peter means in the same chapter when he says in
verse 12: "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish
in their own corruption;"
James and Jesus warned of this same thing in regard to Gehenna: keep your body out of the fire of Gehenna. Romans 1 talks about this too, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness of men....for this reason he turned them over to a wicked mind....
That's being bound hand and foot and thrown into the furnace. Remember the parable of the wedding. Those who did not attend the wedding were killed by the sword and had their houses burned. But those who attended the wedding with the wrong robes were bound up hand and foot and thrown into the fire.
So I agree with you here:
QuoteThe idea of going into the lake of fire needing salvation is ok by me except that that terminology is so corrupted by the systematic theology of ET and ED. It leads into a discussion about "losing one's salvation" which then leads into other unproductive ideas about being saved from hell/fire/etc.
What we are saved from is ourselves, our willfulness, "the lust of the eyes, the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life" and all that, but what we are PRIMARILY saved from(healed/delivered/made whole-sozo) is ADAM.
Peter proclaimed on the day of Pentecost, "Be saved(healed/delivered/made whole) from this perverse(twisted, corrupted, damaged) generation".
Totally agreed. :thumbsup: We need a complete change of paradigm concerning what salvation is all about.
QuoteThe fire that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 3 "Everyones work will be tried in the fire because the day will bring it to light(exposing the hidden motives for the work) and it will be revealed with fire and the fire will test the quality of each mans work. If what has been built survives the person will receive a reward. If what has been built is burned up the person will lose their reward but they will be saved- but as one passing through flames."
To me this does not speak of the lake of fire, but rather the judgment seat of Christ that Paul speaks of where evry believr will be judged for the works done in the body(as a believer in the lifetime in the flesh).
I actually believe it speaks of both the lake of fire and judgment for believers. The ones who have their houses burned in the day of the lord, will not escape the destruction of their houses.
1 Thess 5
1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman,
and they will not escape.He recommended this to a believer in the church:
1 Cor 5
1It is actually reported that
there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,
5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,a b so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.Notice that Paul does not say "It is reported that there is lack of belief among you..." No, he is talking about works, not belief. He is sending the believer out of the church to be destroyed by the Devil for salvation of the spirit in the Day of the Lord. That's a believer being judged not for lack of belief, but for sexual immorality.
QuoteJesus, on the other hand spoke of believers(Lord,Lord) being cast into the fire prepared for the devil and His angels....but were they really believers(I don't know)?
Well, yes. They said "Lord, Lord." So, they believed he was Lord and thought they had a right to his presence. But what Jesus says "Away from me,
ye who work iniquity." Notice, it's not "away from me, ye who do not believe." No, workers of iniquity who say Lord, Lord are the ones judged the harshest. God has no use for hypocrisy.
Re: ye who work iniquity
Matt 7:23 KJV
And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. work <2038> from <2041>
John 6:29 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent. work <2041>
Quote from: anna274 on February 16, 2014, 09:50:15 PM
Re: ye who work iniquity
Matt 7:23 KJV
And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. work <2038> from <2041>
John 6:29 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent. work <2041>
Yet it helps to understand what belief was according to Christ and according to the ancient Jews. It was not simply a matter of believing in the intellectual proposition that Christ exists. The word for faith comes from Enumah which means faithfulness and loyalty. This is why people who work iniquity are separated from the Lord. This is why
sexual immorality was the reason for Paul casting out the man from the church for the destruction of the flesh by Satan, not his lack of intellectual belief.
Here is a word study on the Hebrew understanding of faith:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/the-hebrew-word-for-faith-(and-so-it-was-fulfilled-)
Working iniquity then, is a manifestation of unbelief.
I think we agree to some extent.
I don't think 1 thess 5 is speaking of believers. I think it is speaking of the strong delusion that is coming upon the world of unbelievers in the last times- even as they speak, "Peace and safety", the fire is at the door.
He says, "You are not children of the night that the day will take you as a thief. You are children of the day- walk as children of the day."
Also, the man who was put away from fellowship had certainly been through the process of "seek to restore such a one in a spirit of meekness", before the drastic action of dis-fellowshipping him was engaged, which was my point before, "persistent, egregious sin"- having his Fathers wife certainly qualifies here.
Not everyone who says, "Lord Lord" is a believer, I think that might be the point Jesus was making. Those who gave a drink of water to the thirsty and clothed the naked and visited those in prison or in ill health- they were the believers.
The fire of God is a general term, yes. It manifests in varied and separately functional ways. The lake of fire is one of them. The judgment seat of Christ is also. The baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire is another. The fiery trial that believers endure daily for the purifying of their faith is another. The fire by which Jesus purges the old trees (now the axe is laid to the root of the trees) and raises up new is another.
All the same fire in my view. Different manifestations, functions, purposes, applications.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 16, 2014, 10:03:53 PM
Working iniquity then, is a manifestation of unbelief.
I think we agree to some extent.
I don't think 1 thess 5 is speaking of believers. I think it is speaking of the strong delusion that is coming upon the world of unbelievers in the last times- even as they speak, "Peace and safety", the fire is at the door.
To me it doesn't matter what we label it as being. Personally, I think there is enough Biblical evidence to call it the Lake of Fire. Not just unbelievers will be there but all who work iniquity, which is why there is a distinguishing in the language (as Ed brought up in the OP). Unbelievers are just as in the outer darkness as those who say "Lord, Lord" but remain dead in sin. It's all death. If you don't like calling it the Lake of Fire, that's fine with me, but what's truly important is knowing that God will judge those who believe, but disobey, more harshly than those who didn't know better.
Luke 12
44Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself,
'My master (Lord, Lord) is taking a long time in coming,'
and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers/hypcrites.
47"The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
We know that the Master will come
as a thief in the night and in 1 Thess 5, some will be saying "peace and safety..." But who is Jesus talking about regarding those who say "
the master is taking a long time in coming?" I don't think Paul was just talking about unbelievers in Thess 5. I think it's also talking about those who were put in charge of the "master's possessions" with regard to the Day of the Lord.
James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
That last scripture is from the same chapter talking about how the
tongue is a fire related to the fire of Gehenna. I believe it's clear that believers will find themselves in the Lake of Fire if they work iniquity in this life.
But if you don't want to call it the Lake of Fire because you say that
only unbelievers go there, then I think it's still clear that judgment for believers
will be harsher and "stricter" than the LOF. Personally, I think it's all the LOF.
QuoteNot everyone who says, "Lord Lord" is a believer, I think that might be the point Jesus was making. Those who gave a drink of water to the thirsty and clothed the naked and visited those in prison or in ill health- they were the believers.
To me, I don't really care what it's labeled as. I think what is clear is that those who profess faith but persist in sin will be judged more harshly than those who did not know better. Call that what you like, I call it the Lake of Fire.
Sin IS outer darkness, not the Light. Those who return to their vomit are engaging in outer darkness, in sin, in a second death.
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If you want to label people who do those things as unbelievers, based on bad fruit rather than intellectual belief, that's fine. But some of them would disagree with you. Some of those would say they are not unbelieving, but if they say "Lord, Lord" but engage in murder, and whoremongering etc etc, the Lord will say "away from me you who work iniquity" and "they will be assigned their portion with the hypocrites."
Actually, I dint say th lake of fire is only for unbelievers. If we are going to have theological discussions its important we read each others posts or not bother. Really, I dont care how my opinion is regarded. We come from all kinds of different backgrounds and persapectives. I do care about not wasting time chasing our tails around theological discussion because we want our opinion known rather than we want to understand and hav meaningful discourse with each other.
I said, no believers in right-standing, blood washed, in the body, names written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. :o)
I said, it would take egregious persistent sin to the point of becoming again, an adversary of Christ to have ones name blotted out of the lamb's book of life and wind up there.
I said, we dont want to state conclusively that everyone goes into, or is in, the lake of fire, when the scriptures hold out significant testimony to the contrary.
I said these things not because i care if anyone agrees with me- but because it is important that we offer our opinions about things like this, with a degree of tentativeness because they are seen through a glass darkly.
I hav no preference one way or another what a thing like the lake of fire is "called". I see verses in the scripture that indicate no one whos name is written in the Lamb's book of life needs to be concerned about the lake of fire, at all. If I am wrong that's ok too, I am only offering my opinion, but it is based on verses of scripture.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 17, 2014, 01:43:06 AM
Actually, I dint say th lake of fire is only for unbelievers.
But here was your original response:
Why would we conclude that believers are included in the lake of fire when Jesus says the one who believes in me has passed from death unto life? I am explaining why I would conclude that believers would included in the lake of fire. I suppose that leads to a discussion on what constitutes a "believer." As I have said, regardless of the label we put on it, those who profess faith and have an intellectual belief in Christ but have not shown in their actions to be loyal to his commandments will still find themselves in the lake of fire regardless of their intellectual belief. The reason I believe that, is because their lack of obedience
already is that fire even in this life. If you are saying that those people aren't really believers in the first place, due to their lack of fruit, I don't have a problem with that.
QuoteI said, no believers in right-standing, blood washed, in the body, names written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. :o)
Maybe you can help clarify. You said
"A believer in right standing with God is free from judgment, sin has been judged for him/her already in the body of Jesus Christ by whom every accusation has been nailed to the cross for those who believe and by whose blood their sins are forgiven, washed away into the sea of forgetfulness."Ok, but you didn't define what "right standing" means there. Does it mean having the requisite intellectual belief (as many Christians say), or does it mean having that,
plus walking in obedience as to how Christ says a believer is expected to conduct him/her self in this life?
While I would agree that past sins are forgiven, according to Hebrews 10:
Hebrews 10
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
I don't see that the Bible defines it as "egregious sin." It says continuance in sin, abiding in it, regardless because all sin is a form of death. And what I am saying is not necessarily that a believer WILL go to the LOF, but that if they are abiding in sin, they are already there, regardless of their intellectual belief, and they will be there until they come into the Light.
In fact Peter says that he would rather them having never known the way of righteousness rather than known and turned away, because they turn out worse that way. Their own fire becomes a bigger and stronger fire to be saved from, in other words, and its a furnace we can enter in this life and need to be saved from in the next. That's how I see it anyway.
Eaglesway, you have said that you believe that the Lake of Fire "is a particular manifestation of the light/fire prepared for the devil and his angels and into which certain people will go in order to be purged/broken/exposed."
What do you think about the human tongue as a fire and a world of iniquity? I actually see the LOF as the opposite of Light, but as an "outer darkness" that we ought to avoid. I think "outer darkness" is the opposite of "light." I see the Light coming from the Spirit and the Bride who are in New Jerusalem saying "come into the city and drink from the water of life."
Thats why its important to read the whole post and not cherry pick a sentence.
Actually I did define who was in right-standing- I said it is known by the secrets of men's hearts before the flaming eyes of Jesus.
John said, "If you see a brother or sister comitting a sin that is not unto death, pray for him/her and God will give them life for their sin. I say not that you should pray for a sin unto death."
In other words, a sin unto death, an egregious sin, must be confessed and repented of- I do not want to get into the discussion of what that is here.
However it is clear, here, as well in other places, that altho all sin is death, yes, in that it springs from the nature of the dead man Adam- all sin is not dealt with in the same way.
Thus, again my point- which is purely my own perspective, but based at least on scripture. The lake of fire(which is in my opinion gehenna fire and aionian kolassis and aionian pur) is a certain special manifestation prepared and reserved for adversaries, as the Lord defined it and as John saw it.
As to who is in right standing, and whose names are in the lamb's book of life, there's the rub- Paul tells Timothy- "The Lord knows those who are his and let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity"
As Paul says in Romans, "On the day when God will judge the secrets of men's heart through Jesus Christ" or in another place he says, "Why do you go on judging before the time"?
Quote from: eaglesway on February 17, 2014, 02:12:16 AM
Thats why its important to read the whole post and not cherry pick a sentence.
Wow, take it easy. Anyone can miss things.
QuoteActually I did define who was in right-standing- I said it is known by the secrets of men's hearts before the flaming eyes of Jesus.
Many Christians believe that "right standing" is simply a matter of believing in Christ. That's it. The fact that God will judge our secrets of our hearts reveals that it's more than a matter of belief to be in right standing with God, but that it STARTS with belief. If obedience does not follow belief, one is not in right standing with God.
QuoteAs to who is in right standing, and whose names are in the lamb's book of life, there's the rub- Paul tells Timothy- "The Lord knows those who are his and let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity"
That's right! We agree then. That means it's not simply a matter of belief, but departing from iniquity. This goes back to the point of the OP. That's why Hebrews 10 says that those who continue to abide in sin are adversaries of the Cross and have nothing to look forward to but "judgment and
fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."
When James talks about the tounge as a fire, I personally think that has nothing to do with the lake of fire. Pretty soon, every where fire is mentioned in the bible then becomes, the lake of fire. I just dont see that. The problem with metaphor is that it requires discernment and context. In one place yeast represents the kingdom of God. In another the leaven of the Pharisees and the traditions that make the word of God of no effect; in another the sins of the flesh among those who ought to be holy, in another the egregious sin of a man with his father's wife.
leaven is a different metaphor depending on each context. So also with fire refering to the wicked output of the tongue out the carnal heart.
Now, I am not saying my perspective is the right one, to be clear. Let the reader discern. I am just trying to ensure that what I am saying is clear- in my view you havent been reading, or "hearing" what I am saying so I am responding more to your mischaracterizations of my responses than to change anybodies mind- and I have probably said as much as i need to say. :Pray:
Quote from: eaglesway on February 17, 2014, 02:25:07 AM
When James talks about the tounge as a fire, I personally think that has nothing to do with the lake of fire. Pretty soon, every where fire is mentioned in the bible then becomes, the lake of fire.
So then, look at the context in James 3:6: he is specifically talking about
Gehenna. And Jesus talks about Gehenna in such a way to strongly connect the two between his parables and the book of Revelation. In Revelation you have New Jerusalem which is the Bride (God's people). Outside the Bride is a lake of fire. In the parables, the wedding feast contains guests who are wearing the wrong robes and are bound hand and foot and thrown into the fire. A FIRE, outside the bride? I see that as a very strong correlation between Gehenna and the LOF, IMHO, along with the fact that literal Gehenna is also outside literal Jerusalem.
Maybe the reason that it's called the "outer darkness" is because outside the Spirit and the Bride, there is no light? I don't see the LOF as the light, because Christ told people to remain in him, and those who abide not in him are cut off and thrown into the fire (John 15). Jesus told us to be in the light and stay away from darkness, which is what Gehenna is and the LOF, IMHO.
QuoteNow, I am not saying my perspective is the right one, to be clear. Let the reader discern. I am just trying to ensure that what I am saying is clear- in my view you havent been reading, or "hearing" what I am saying so I am responding more to your mischaracterizations of my responses than to change anybodies mind- and I have probably said as much as i need to say. :Pray:
I'm going to have to disagree with that. I have carefully read your responses and am seeking to clarify.
Quote from: eaglesway on Today at 02:25:07 AM
When James talks about the tounge as a fire, I personally think that has nothing to do with the lake of fire. Pretty soon, every where fire is mentioned in the bible then becomes, the lake of fire.
I agree with that. :dsunny:
the Holy spirit and the scriptures as well have shown us what is thrown into the fire/consumed of it....the
serpent/demons/adversary....that which has bound us all...even sin....now the fire tongues is cloven...
has two functions...it destroys what needs be and cleanses what needs be. It both purifies men and
destroys the corrupt.
the fork of the cloven tongue speaks of seperation of that which is one[us with Holy spirit and sin in our
flesh/body of death]...He shall appear again...seperate/apart from sin...and when we see Him we shall be
just like Him[seperate from our body of sin/death]
for He shall have done away with the man of sin[old man/Adam] with the breath of His coming......
my :2c:
I believe the whole world is on fire spiritually speaking
God is a consuming fire I love Isaiah for this reason
understanding that Zion is the Fire of Gods presence and that Jerusalem is the furnace the Lord Jesus speaks of , Jesus come to send fire upon the earth , set it on Fire [ Luke 12 ;49]
Peter explains 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Peter is telling us of the fortelling of Isaiah , its happing now and has and will continue to me !!!
Isa 29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.
Isa 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Isa 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
Isa 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
Isa 31:9 And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.
Isa 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
Isa 33:12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil
Tophet or Topheth = "place of fire" a place in the southeast end of the valley of the son of Hinnom south of Jerusalem. Same as 08613
Strong's H8611 - topheth
תֹּפֶת
Transliteration
topheth
Pronunciation
tō'·feth (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From the base of תָּפַף (H8608)
TWOT Reference
2499a
Outline of Biblical Usage
act of spitting, spit
...and regarding 'branches' that are purged[men dead in Christ due to sin/tresspass/unregeneration]
He is the Lord of the dead...........and He can do away with the man of lawlessness with the breath of His
coming...snatch such a dry branch[man] from the fire..........[though satan be standing at that man's side
resisting] and rebuke the serpent. He must do this for such men..for the Lord must rebuke the adversary
for all men..so they may live unto Him...and be seperated from their sin.....it is such men in the
serpent garment/man of ssin garment...that MUST be clothed in the new wedding garment.
Thus we discern the man that has not on a wedding gaarment. For ALL men must be clothed in Christ
just as they have bore the image of the corrupt[serpent]body of death/sin as a garment
for in the garden..Satan took the serpent as a garment..in heaven..the satan took the garment of a
dragon.....in the animals..when they become wild aand ferocious and destructive..satan's mark in them
was as a beast........and when the satan took man's flesh as a garment..he become known as then man of
sin or the son of perdition.......who as dry sticks thrown in the fire caused the serpent to come out...
such men are 'snatched from the fire"
Zechariah 3;2 The Lord said to satan..'THE LORD REBUKE YOU,SATAN! THE LORD WHO HAS CHOSEN
JERUSALEM,REBUKE YOU. IS NOT THIS MAN A BURNING STICK SNATCHED FROM THE FIRE!!!
TAKE OFF HIS FILTHY CLOTHES[body of sin/death]......see...I have taken away your sin[breath of
His coming] and I WILL PUT RICH GARMENTS ON YOU[best robe]...ALL MEN MUST BE RAISED UP
IN CHRIST'S IMAGE...THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL!!!!!!! :banana: :banana:
Quote from: rosered on February 17, 2014, 06:23:21 PM
I believe the whole world is on fire spiritually speaking
God is a consuming fire I love Isaiah for this reason
understanding that Zion is the Fire of Gods presence and that Jerusalem is the furnace the Lord Jesus speaks of , Jesus come to send fire upon the earth , set it on Fire [ Luke 12 ;49]
Peter explains 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Yes, God is a consuming fire and I think it's so important to distinguish something concerning that. I used to believe that the LOF was maybe God himself, that everyone was going to be thrown into God himself to be purified. I still believe that the LOF has a purifying component, but not in the same way I used to believe.
I think there is a really good reason Jesus included the Prodigal Son parable in his canon. I believe it really sheds light on his other parables concerning being "bound hand and foot and thrown into the outer darkness."
There are two things I strongly believe:
1) God is a consuming fire, in that he will judge
2) However, God is NOT the outer darkness itself. God is the light.
Revelation 22
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
There is a furnace in Zion, that's God, who is the tree of life and also the rivers of water that flows within the City. And yet there is a furnace also
outside of New Jerusalem as well, called "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" and is called DEATH (the spiritual state of carnal mindedness) That's not God. God is not death itself, even though he judges people with it. The tree of life is within the City, but death and darkness are outside.
Judgment for those who do not enter the wedding:Matt 22
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding:
and they would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and
he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Judgment for those who DO enter the wedding: 8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13Then said the king to the servants,
Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14For many are called,
but few are chosen.
I do not believe the KING is the same as the OUTER DARKNESS, even though the king judges the guests with it. The Lake of Fire is not light. It is DARKNESS. It will eventually lead to the destruction of them who are in that spiritual state, but it's not advisable to be in that state in the first place. It's much better to judge ourselves now rather than be condemned with the world.
I think this Matthew 22 parable is interesting because it speaks about those who refused to enter the wedding feast in the first place, THEN it talks about others who were gathered from the highways and byways who DID attend the wedding (the Bride), but were cast out when they had no wedding garment. I think the latter group is the professing Christian who abides in sin, those who Hebrews 10 warns us about.
To be cast OUT of the presence of the Lord, therefore, is to be in the Lake of Fire, where they are tormented in the presence of the Lamb, but for all his presence, they cannot see him and cannot know him. That is truly to be away from his presence.
Eaglesway stated...Jesus, on the other hand spoke of believers(Lord,Lord) being cast into the fire prepared for the devil and His angels....but were they really believers(I don't know)?
Away from me, I never knew you...IMO means they were never saved. They spoke Christian, walked Christian, preached Christian...but didn't know Christ. How do you know them? By their fruit. The fruit?
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in.
If we claim Jesus as our Savior but do not pursue love, ache for growth in the area of love then we deceive ourselves.
Dear Seth ,
Thank you for explaining your thoughts on this ,
I see what you are saying and had to read it twice
But I think we are thinking differently on just what the Lake of Fire is, as well as
God being the consuming fire
Deu 4: 23 , 24
Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Hbr 12:25 ¶ See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Hbr 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Hbr 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hbr 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
With God being the consuming fire we can see its about His Jealousy to destroy the works of the false Idols men have set up in their minds / hearts to vanquish them and leave them powerless , proving that idols cannot save them , everything they believe in come to nothing
as for the lake of fire , this being the second death , blessed is he who is in the first ressurection [ BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST ] the 2nd death holds no power over them / no harm
Paul goes on to explain this in 1CORINTH 15
I used to think the 2nd death was when they literally died in the physical mortal realm , I no longer see this as true it says in Adam all die , and in Christ all shall be made alive
But the covenant God had with Adam was him knowing good and evil
and see this as the old heavens and earth , those in Adam are not allowed to eat from the tree of Life , so this is how I see it now they are still in ADAM are the bondage of sin and knowing it and have not died in Christ yet , still being fearful and unbelieving that torment that harms and death still reigns over them . and the lake of fire is consuming their works and they still believe they are saving themselves by their own hands [powers ] and works of their own righteousness by doing good and trying to be keeping the law of Moses never entering the promised land [Body of Christ ] but in the wilderness experience to die once and than the judgment of Christ is to come , I feel personally this is exactly what happened to me
I wished for death and it eluded me , when I thought , I am clean Lord take me now before sin enters my heart again !
it was foolish and the preaching was foolish to make me think I had to do the works , its the Christ in you that is DOING THE RIGHTEOUS WORKS!!!
as long as I was under the Law of the tree of knowledge of good and evil , I was headed for destruction and death and FEARFUL OF IT AND UNBELIVING , not obeying !!!
these verses become my reality !
1Cr 1:17 For Christ didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News—and not with clever speech, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.
1Cr 1:18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.
1Cr 1:19 As the Scriptures say,
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and discard the intelligence of the intelligent."
1Cr 1:20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish.
1Cr 1:21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe.
1Cr 1:22 It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom.
1Cr 1:23 So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense.
1Cr 1:24 But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, [fn] Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
it took Jesus Himself to get though to me and change me and help me , I KNOW I HAVE BEEN VISITED !! CHRIST HAS COME ! its the truth , It changed everything a new heavens and earth in the sense of this we now eat of the TREE OF LIFE !! the Victory song of moses and the LAMB has come !!
the worldly wisdom is sensual earthly and devish !! it does not save you but allows men to glory in men :sigh: !!
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
1Cr 15:12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
they are alive and with Him now ruling and regining as priest and kings with Jesus
1Cr 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
did you notice here that when Christ comes to you the end is near ??
1Cr 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
under His feet is to vanquish enemies and teach them WITH HIS VOICE WE HEAR HIM ! the tree of Life has come and death no longer rules over you ,LIFE IN CHRIST DOES !
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
MY FATHER YOUR FATHER Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him
1Cr 15:29 ¶ Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
1Cr 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Cr 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
1Cr 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Cr 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1Cr 15:35 ¶ But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
THE SPIRITUAL BODY is Christ in Gods and its happening as we speak new heavens and new earth is in God though Jesus Christ the tree of Life to be carnally minded is death , but those having the mind of Christ is life and peace this is how we hear and know Him !
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
hope this helps explain what I was saying Seth , its very hard to be clear , but I just keep asking the Lord to make my speach simple and clear and have now for many years
God bless
Quote from: shawn on February 18, 2014, 01:29:53 AM
Eaglesway stated...Jesus, on the other hand spoke of believers(Lord,Lord) being cast into the fire prepared for the devil and His angels....but were they really believers(I don't know)?
Away from me, I never knew you...IMO means they were never saved. They spoke Christian, walked Christian, preached Christian...but didn't know Christ. How do you know them? By their fruit. The fruit?
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in.
If we claim Jesus as our Savior but do not pursue love, ache for growth in the area of love then we deceive ourselves.
Hi Shawn , you were posting while I was writing , I appreciate you !!
Glad you mentioned the fruits , being of the tree of knowledge of good and evil
what fruits/works are acceptable to GOD ?
only from the tree of Life
because its the only kind God plants ! :winkgrin:
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
. Jesus is the vine the Father is the husbandman
Col 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught,
abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Rosered, I think you and I a actually see it the same way. I think I need to edit my post. I didn't mean physical death, but as you are saying, death in Adam. I believe the LOF is the spiritual state of being and walking in death. Not making that more clear may have led to the impression that I believe the LOF is physical death.
Quote from: Seth on February 18, 2014, 02:24:09 AM
Rosered, I think you and I a actually see it the same way. I think I need to edit my post. I didn't mean physical death, but as you are saying, death in Adam. I believe the LOF is the spiritual state of being and walking in death. Not making that more clear may have led to the impression that I believe the LOF is physical death.
:thumbsup: well good deal Seth , I was thinking we were never to far off , just needed to clarify a bit :friendstu: Thanks for the postings !