Hi,
being new to the room, some believe that all people will be saved regardless - is this teaching supported by the bible or from other source outside the Bible. We know that the roman catholic church is also hinting to this belief as well. just because many people have jumped onto the band wagon doesn't make it right. what is the reasoning to promote the idea that all people will be saved? Will God force, drag people to be saved even after death?
simply a fanciful notion that all will be saved... lets see what people think
regards MrLoudmouth
Alright, respectful discussion folks. :) Comet, you're welcome to your beliefs, no one forces anything down anyone's throat here. Please familiarize yourself with the expectations in the FAQ sections, Forum Guidelines, etc., so fruitful discussion can be had. Thanks, James.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/
Capt. Comet, it is easy to imagine a Heaven ruled by God, and a Hell ruled by Satan, but that is fanciful too, and not at all Biblical. What are the options after we die?
death, and then, more death
Heaven after resurrection
Hell after resurrection
Purgatory
Limbo (now done away with, by order of the RCC)
reincarceration (spelling intentional)
Take your pick. Now, if God is a God of creation and love, where would He place us?
Quote from: Captian comet on July 29, 2013, 07:26:16 AM
Hi,
being new to the room, some believe that all people will be saved regardless - is this teaching supported by the bible or from other source outside the Bible. We know that the roman catholic church is also hinting to this belief as well. just because many people have jumped onto the band wagon doesn't make it right. what is the reasoning to promote the idea that all people will be saved? Will God force, drag people to be saved even after death?
simply a fanciful notion that all will be saved... lets see what people think
regards MrLoudmouth
With love :HeartThrob:
I Ti m. 4:9-10
"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.
1Cr 3:11. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
1Cr 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
1Cr 3:14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Love is what love does not what is believed.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Captian comet on July 29, 2013, 07:26:16 AMWill God force, drag people to be saved even after death?
Greetings Captain,
I assume that you don't believe hell is literal fire and torture, right? Who would not want to be saved from that after death?
"Will God force, drag people to be saved even after death?"
Force....NO!
Drag......YES.....but what a drag! :HeartThrob:
Is there a verse in the Bible that denies 1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
If there is no such verse that denies that word, then imo, all verses in the Bible should be looked at and pray to be understood as a pathway to that Truth, which is good and acceptable before our God and Savior. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Apparently, Captain Comet has left the building. One post and he has not returned to see the replies. God bless him and his efforts to find the true love of God. :Peace2:
"for this are we toiling and being reproached, that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
"No salvation after death" is a false assumption. The chosen in Christ will be saved from the coming indignation and immortalized for eonian life. Those who die as unbelievers will be saved from death when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all. That is not church doctrine, but it is the written word of God.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/unbeliever.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/TheGrandestTruth.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/BelievingAndUnderstanding.html
As Paul said, "Death cannot seperate us from the love of God."
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 04, 2013, 11:31:13 PM
As Paul said, "Death cannot seperate us from the love of God."
And ... Yet ... it has been my experience that the love of God, can indeed separate us from death.
Could the whole issue truly boil down to simply not accepting God's love, or that God loves us? Once that's truly accepted, it seems to me, that the whole discussion of Hell and universal torment, actually starts to look (and I mean no disrespect) silly. It seems almost simplistically logical to me ... UR is a subset of God's love. Once God's love is seen, all those things not associated with love, are known not to be of God. Maybe if you know not of God's love, or don't accept it for yourself, you have to rely on human metaphors. Maybe.
Loved your post!VB................
if there is no salvation after death...then what is the RESURRECTION? I AM THE RESURRECTION
Love your post as well VB :dsunny:......especially the "silly" and as well not to be disrespectful. :HeartThrob:
Thanks guys.
Is it just me, or does the existence of hell make it feel like God carries a grudge?
I Cor. 13 tells me that love is patient and that love is kind, then it says that love does not insist upon its own way. Because I know God's love, and have also come to see that God is love, I can say ... God is patient, God is kind, and that God does not insist upon His own way. That really doesn't sound like someone who would carry a grudge: does it?
It's not you VB. It does make it seem like God holds a grudge. It also makes him seem Like a sadist. Only a sadist would create a creature, knowing it could not live up to His standards and then torture him for all eternity because of it. Sad-istic
hi! haven't logged on for a little bit, visiting my home state.. and haven't much time even now.. (missing folks and conversations here!:)
my points would be -
why a 2nd resurrection?
why a Day of Judgment / Review?
why is the verse "those not believing will go to the 2nd death" at the very end of that chapter? even after, death and the grave ('hell') are cast into the LOF?
after being resurrected.. and after witnessing and living through the examination of all things.. who's not going to "believe" - whoever that might be, would go to the LOF for aion (and aion.. for time and time) I personally don't think anyone will have hardened their heart (hate for God) to that degree :hiya:
I'm sure others have pointed out some of the hundreds of verses which say "all"
imo, to "die in one's sins" simply means to rise still in them, not as joyful as the 1st resurrection (initially)
how could Paul wish himself accursed from Jesus for the sake of his kinsmen? :)
gap theory belongs, imo, between 2nd resurrection and LOF, an age as DOJ (day of Judgment) which becomes DOA (dead on arrival, but Day of Atonement) the fulfillment of the fall holy days by the long 2nd advent, even as the spring ones prophesied the 1st advent.. surely?
in sum: God is Love (Life/Perfection) but endowed thinking ability, which was the whole new tree of possibilities and abyss.. imo, 'hell' is blasphemy against God's Good and HoLy character, the place of the dead is still the grave (sheol) - the chains of darkness the fallen angels are in is imperfection which cannot change course back to perfection.. and Christ preached via the Spirit while the ark was being aprepared..
sorry, I simply cannot help myself from rambling on and on.. :smile: :hiya:
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 06, 2013, 04:30:47 PM
It's not you VB. It does make it seem like God holds a grudge. It also makes him seem Like a sadist. Only a sadist would create a creature, knowing it could not live up to His standards and then torture him for all eternity because of it. Sad-istic
amen.. very sad.. theory.. when our joy is supposed to be FuLL.. His peace He leaves with us.. :girlheart: :cloud9:
(wish i had time to read more in this thread..)
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 06, 2013, 04:30:47 PM
It's not you VB. It does make it seem like God holds a grudge. It also makes him seem Like a sadist. Only a sadist would create a creature, knowing it could not live up to His standards and then torture him for all eternity because of it. Sad-istic
It reminds me of the free-will discussions I've been involved with. I think I am getting silly as I get older. I say this because UR makes sense to me; Christ's crucifixion makes sense to me; free-will seen as a myth makes sense to me. The reason is (in my opinion) that once I looked at it from the point of view of someone who needed to be the center of the discussion, and therefore needed to have a say in the outcome. As I get older I start to see it from (I think) God's point of view. To wit ... I love my kids; I want them to come home and be safe, and loved; I will do anything for my kids, including sacrificing myself to make sure they are okay.
Once I look at the world and doctrines and people through the eyes of a loving father ... it falls into place. He loves us ... either we see that or we don't. His actions are based on His love for us ... either we see that or we don't. But whether or not we see it, or acknowledge it, or even fight against it, He still loves us and will continue to do so for ever. Nothing God does made sense to me until He showed me that because He loves us, He will do anything it takes to keep us safe. It doesn't matter that sometimes we just don't get it, or sometimes we forget. He has structured it such that nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. We don't have to acknowledge it to make it true, but once I saw it through the eyes of a loving father, it made all the sense in the world.
Well said VB. Thank you for returning to give us all valuable insight. :dsunny:
1 Cor 15;12-23 " Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised.
And if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is groundless, and your faith is to no purpose.
Beyond that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, because we bore witness about God that He raised the Christ whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
For if the dead are not raised not even Christ has been raised, your faith is useless: you are still in your sins. Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
If our hope in Christ is for this life only, we are most to be pittied of all men.
BUT IN FACT CHRIST HAS BEEN RAISED FROM THE DEAD, the first fruit of those who have fallen asleep.
For since the death came through a man the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.
For just as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ will ALL be made alive, but each in his own order;"
Quote from: VineBranch on August 07, 2013, 06:21:21 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 06, 2013, 04:30:47 PM
It's not you VB. It does make it seem like God holds a grudge. It also makes him seem Like a sadist. Only a sadist would create a creature, knowing it could not live up to His standards and then torture him for all eternity because of it. Sad-istic
It reminds me of the free-will discussions I've been involved with. I think I am getting silly as I get older. I say this because UR makes sense to me; Christ's crucifixion makes sense to me; free-will seen as a myth makes sense to me. The reason is (in my opinion) that once I looked at it from the point of view of someone who needed to be the center of the discussion, and therefore needed to have a say in the outcome. As I get older I start to see it from (I think) God's point of view. To wit ... I love my kids; I want them to come home and be safe, and loved; I will do anything for my kids, including sacrificing myself to make sure they are okay.
Once I look at the world and doctrines and people through the eyes of a loving father ... it falls into place. He loves us ... either we see that or we don't. His actions are based on His love for us ... either we see that or we don't. But whether or not we see it, or acknowledge it, or even fight against it, He still loves us and will continue to do so for ever. Nothing God does made sense to me until He showed me that because He loves us, He will do anything it takes to keep us safe. It doesn't matter that sometimes we just don't get it, or sometimes we forget. He has structured it such that nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. We don't have to acknowledge it to make it true, but once I saw it through the eyes of a loving father, it made all the sense in the world.
Amen, brother.
Quote from: Ross on August 07, 2013, 02:39:27 PM
1 Cor 15;12-23 " Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised.
And if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is groundless, and your faith is to no purpose.
Beyond that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, because we bore witness about God that He raised the Christ whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
For if the dead are not raised not even Christ has been raised, your faith is useless: you are still in your sins. Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
If our hope in Christ is for this life only, we are most to be pittied of all men.
BUT IN FACT CHRIST HAS BEEN RAISED FROM THE DEAD, the first fruit of those who have fallen asleep.
For since the death came through a man the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.
For just as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ will ALL be made alive, but each in his own order;"
Amen, brother.
amen all (and welcome to cap'n loudmouth :laughing7: his words not mine, which i thought rather cute n self humbling)
...where are all the verses which say after death, no hope?
"hades" the "place of the dead" is still the grave (til resurrection that is) - then death and hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire the second death/nonlife/not-being?
oh yes "depart from me into ever lasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" - but that's at Jesus' return.. and 1000 years before DOJ (day of judgment) - doesn't Ezekiel, Paul and Peter talk about fire at Jesus' return?
And of course there is no "ever lasting" in the Scriptures, but aion lasting..
will He really drag/drw all men to Him? the whole creation testifies................
Light has the power to 'CHANGE' molecules[we shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye]
every eye shall see Him coming on the clouds of heaven.....we are,this planet being drawn into
a cloudy area of space clouds at this time. ELECT-RO-MAGNETIC CLOUDS OF THE HEAVENS
ELECT=CHOOSE RO= 1.to the right 2. cross 3, soft flexible sheepskin
MAGNETIC=POWER TO DRAW
so the heavens testify at this time that Christ coming in the clouds of heaven
draw elect men[all men] to the right,cross sheep.
Light transference[twinkling of eye] happens in air or space vacum[last vial poured out in air]
In the last dys I will pour out my Spirit on ALL FLESH[my spirit which goes forth from me will not return void.
it will accomplish that which I sent it forth for. THERE SHALL BE DREAMS,PROPHESY AND VISIONS
CAN YOU ACCEPT WHAT THE HEAVENS ARE TESTIFYING TO? THE HEAVENS DECLRE HIS GLORY
IF I BE LIFTED UP,I SHALL DRAW ALL MEN[elect] UNTO ME
MEN OF GALILEE,WHY DO YOU STAND LOOKING UP INTO THE HEAVENS.?...THIS JESUS CHRIST
WILL RETURN IN THE SAME MANNER YE BEHELD HIM LEAVE.
who would of thought that ro means'to the right' 'cross' or sheepskin'? I never imagined it. Did you?
I had heard and red the wittness of the strs/heavens before..but I had not seen this 'sign' of the
SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN
Quote from: Captian comet on July 29, 2013, 07:26:16 AM
Hi,
being new to the room, some believe that all people will be saved regardless - is this teaching supported by the bible or from other source outside the Bible. We know that the roman catholic church is also hinting to this belief as well. just because many people have jumped onto the band wagon doesn't make it right. what is the reasoning to promote the idea that all people will be saved? Will God force, drag people to be saved even after death?
simply a fanciful notion that all will be saved... lets see what people think
regards MrLoudmouth
It's difficult to comprehend what exactly will happen.
But maybe it's easier to look at it from the classic view of the war between God and satan.
The will of God is to save all.
The will of satan is to destroy all.
In classic theology satan is the big ultimate winner. He scores at about 90% of creation.
Sounds like an odd teaching because in the Bible, especially the OT part, we see God is patient but ultimately crushes rebellion. Why not so with satan? Yeah in Revelation we read God finally totally eradicates the mess of Satan. But did God really win that war?
Take the USA as an example. Starts out with 100% a terrorist (satan) roams the country and kill 50%. Finally Obama starts acting and wipes out the enemy forces. But during that war another 40% dies.
Opponent totally wiped out. America reduced to 10%. Obama won!!!!
Or not?
Firstly losing 90% can hardly be called victory.
Secondly satan's primary goal is to steal people from God. Stealing 90% isn't a bad score.
My verdict: Satan won and God is allowed to play with the scraps.
I rank the most high General a bit higher than that....
Well, Jesus' mission to save all of his creation, man, animals, vegetation, indeed, to reconcile all things to Himself.
Did He fail in His quest?
Jock.
the rebellionis the head/mind of the serpent...that iscrushed beneath the woman's seed.heel......
though the seed's heel[portion of body as it touches/pertains to this earthly vessel. /flesh....
undergo death.
due tothe lifein itself ofthis holy seed...it rises[resurrects]I AM THE RESURRECTION....this seed
with life in itself is given unto ALLMEN FREELY...this seed crushes andplaces beneath thefeet
all enemies...evendeath. So,when the last enemy death is oovercome by the seed......
andthe plagueof death is stopped at the threshing floor[O'Death I SHALL BE THY PLAGUE]
who is victorious?. In a great war does one defeet..mean the war is lost?
if there is no salvation after death...then Christ is not risen.. andwhoshall save usfrom
this bodyundergoing thisdeath? Fear notthose whocankillthe body anddonothing else.
But hope that is seen isno hope t all. Butifwe hope forwhat we donot yet hve,wewait forit
patiently.[He who takes away allsin,God is notcounting theirtresspasses[all dead in Adam/against
them]
He invites us to place him like a sealover our heart,like a sealover our arm......
.
FOR LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH...IT'S JEALOUSY AS UNYEILDING AS THE GRAVE.
do you not know that he whodestroys the temple of God[man's body] death..that
GOD WILL DESTROY.?
He created man for His spirit to dwell in.......if some evil spirit have another's wife...he is as
good as a dead man