Mat. 25:31-46
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Martin Zender's take on Matthew 25.
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Yes, Matthew 25:31-46 does ring a bell. It should, seeing as how I've studied the passage for fifteen years. This is a judgment of nations, not individuals, a fact plainly stated in verse 42. Thus, this is not the general judgment of mankind, as you suppose. This judging takes place at the inauguration of the thousand-year kingdom. The majority of mankind are not even alive at this judging, for scripture says that, "the rest of the dead" (the unbelieving dead of all time) "do not live until the thousand years should be finished" (Rev. 20:5).
If this is the separation of all people into either heaven or hell, tell me: What is the criteria for judging? Is it faith in Jesus? Is it belief in the gospel? Reliance on the cross? No. The only criteria is: How did the nation being judged treat the favored nation Israel? Did they feed Israel when it was hungry? Give it a drink when it was thirsty? This judgment, which takes place in the Kidron Valley (the Valley of Jehoshaphat) upon Christ's return, does nothing more than separate nations that helped Israel (sheep nations) from those that ignored her (goat nations), and determines their placement during the millennium.
The "everlasting punishment" of the King James Version is actually "chastening eonian" in the Greek. ("Eternal" is a mistranslation of the Greek aion, meaning "eon," which always has to do with time.) The "life eternal" is correctly translated "life eonian." This passage has nothing to do with where people will spend eternity. The eon in question is the thousand-year kingdom, and the "people" are nations. Those nations that helped Israel will enjoy abundant life during that eon, probably near Jerusalem. Those nations that didn't will be placed in the outer reaches of the kingdom and will certainly suffer more than the sheep nations. This is the "fire eonian" of verse 41. Since Christ is said to rule these nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:27), it is evident that these nations are neither consumed nor writhing in literal flame. Thus, the flame of this context is a figure of speech for suffering.
Lets try a kingdom application here. Let's do the opposite of what we "think" it's referring to. Instead of trying to get it to fit to nations outwardly, let's see what it does to the nations "inwardly".
What is a nation within me? Well, Abraham had nations in him . . .beyond the number of stars in the heavens or sand on the shore. "He meant his physical offspring" I don't doubt he did, but again, that's the outward application. The same goes for Jesus when he stated "tear this temple down" and they immediately interpreted that to mean the literal temple of brick and mortar.
He even tells us the kingdom of heaven is "in" us. What makes up a kingdom if not nations? What if this sheep and goats is not God telling us that "in you" there is a separation taking place and he is calling out the carnality in me from the godliness in me? The godliness in me leads me into the kingdom of his presence whereas the ungodliness in me remains hindered and blind, in need of purging by the fire of his glory to refine all of me into the wholeness of his full nature to manifest freely in every aspect of my life.
Which of these scenerios would benefit my spirit man the most? The one where nations outwardly are going to be either rewarded or cast out? Or the nations "within" me that God is promising to bring "all" of me into a place of purity and wholeness? I'm opting for the latter.
Yes Nathan :icon_flower:
For mine I see the Natural witnessing the Spiritual- as Within the Natural the Lord using the example of the Pharisses as Goats , The purpose is ALWAYS the SPIRIUAL intent teaching the Inward Man :icon_joker:
:cloud9: Amen Nathan......excellent way to explain it :thumbsup:
I have seen this verse with a different perspective, I have not seen this view before, so it is very new.
Ok I used to think this must be talking about the lake of fire, where all will be judged according to their works, and the bad go into the lake of fire, prepared for his angels. But the verse talks about judging nations and not individuals. After reading many scriptures there is evidence that in the future God will pour out his wrath on disobedient nations and those who are faithfull will be spared, but those who have done evil will suffer the judgment of the most high. Now the new perspective is that the fire prepared for the devl and his angels is located upon the earth :mshock: This means that the devil and his angels will be among disobedient humanity at the end, the red dragon cast out of heavenly places in chapter 12, Isiah talks about the devils city Tyrus being invaded by God and destroyed and the leviathian the serpent will be punished by God.
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 05:57:42 PM
Lets try a kingdom application here. Let's do the opposite of what we "think" it's referring to. Instead of trying to get it to fit to nations outwardly, let's see what it does to the nations "inwardly".
What is a nation within me? Well, Abraham had nations in him . . .beyond the number of stars in the heavens or sand on the shore. "He meant his physical offspring" I don't doubt he did, but again, that's the outward application. The same goes for Jesus when he stated "tear this temple down" and they immediately interpreted that to mean the literal temple of brick and mortar.
He even tells us the kingdom of heaven is "in" us. What makes up a kingdom if not nations? What if this sheep and goats is not God telling us that "in you" there is a separation taking place and he is calling out the carnality in me from the godliness in me? The godliness in me leads me into the kingdom of his presence whereas the ungodliness in me remains hindered and blind, in need of purging by the fire of his glory to refine all of me into the wholeness of his full nature to manifest freely in every aspect of my life.
Which of these scenerios would benefit my spirit man the most? The one where nations outwardly are going to be either rewarded or cast out? Or the nations "within" me that God is promising to bring "all" of me into a place of purity and wholeness? I'm opting for the latter.
I always like your posts. They always make me think. I wonder though...why is this being described as taking place at the 1000 year reign? Are not all believers having their being seperated today? Are we not all being divided, purified, being purged by the fire of the Holy Spirit? I believe so. So, in your opinion are these verses talking about a seperate purification or what is happening today?
YLTRev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
"and reign with Christ"
If you look up the Greek for reign you find that it's aorist tense. It doesn't give past, future or present tense information....
Maybe that's a piece of the puzzle you are looking for?
Tense-Aorist
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time. There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.
The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a
number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these
include a view of the action as having begun from a certain
point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point
("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point
("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can
be found in Greek reference grammars.
The English reader need not concern himself with most of these
finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases
they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation,
being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice
of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should
suffice in most cases.
Quote from: shawn on January 15, 2011, 06:47:22 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 05:57:42 PM
Lets try a kingdom application here. Let's do the opposite of what we "think" it's referring to. Instead of trying to get it to fit to nations outwardly, let's see what it does to the nations "inwardly".
What is a nation within me? Well, Abraham had nations in him . . .beyond the number of stars in the heavens or sand on the shore. "He meant his physical offspring" I don't doubt he did, but again, that's the outward application. The same goes for Jesus when he stated "tear this temple down" and they immediately interpreted that to mean the literal temple of brick and mortar.
He even tells us the kingdom of heaven is "in" us. What makes up a kingdom if not nations? What if this sheep and goats is not God telling us that "in you" there is a separation taking place and he is calling out the carnality in me from the godliness in me? The godliness in me leads me into the kingdom of his presence whereas the ungodliness in me remains hindered and blind, in need of purging by the fire of his glory to refine all of me into the wholeness of his full nature to manifest freely in every aspect of my life.
Which of these scenerios would benefit my spirit man the most? The one where nations outwardly are going to be either rewarded or cast out? Or the nations "within" me that God is promising to bring "all" of me into a place of purity and wholeness? I'm opting for the latter.
I always like your posts. They always make me think. I wonder though...why is this being described as taking place at the 1000 year reign? Are not all believers having their being seperated today? Are we not all being divided, purified, being purged by the fire of the Holy Spirit? I believe so. So, in your opinion are these verses talking about a seperate purification or what is happening today?
Ooooo, big can of worms hwere . . . for one, the thousand year reign with Christ is not in Matthew, which is where the sheep and goat principle is at, but instead it's in Revelation. Secondly, I'm not a supporter of the "literal" thousand year reign. I believe the 1000 year issue is another inward principle. Everything in Revelation is based on the tabernacle of Moses. The tabernacle is patterned after Christ, Revelation is an unveiling of Christ. To see the Revelation, we also must see it through the tabernacle.
"in" the tabernacle, there is one room with dimensions that have the sum of 1000. And that is the Holy of Holies . . .it's 10x10x10. The thousand year reign is not a literal spance of time, but it's an inward posiition we have in Christ. The Holy of hoies is all about personal intimacy with the Father through the Son. And yes, that's a "NOW" kind of thing that we experienced yesterday, today and will continue to experience it until the fulness of all things come to materialize in and through us.
Quote from: Nathan on January 16, 2011, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: shawn on January 15, 2011, 06:47:22 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 05:57:42 PM
Lets try a kingdom application here. Let's do the opposite of what we "think" it's referring to. Instead of trying to get it to fit to nations outwardly, let's see what it does to the nations "inwardly".
What is a nation within me? Well, Abraham had nations in him . . .beyond the number of stars in the heavens or sand on the shore. "He meant his physical offspring" I don't doubt he did, but again, that's the outward application. The same goes for Jesus when he stated "tear this temple down" and they immediately interpreted that to mean the literal temple of brick and mortar.
He even tells us the kingdom of heaven is "in" us. What makes up a kingdom if not nations? What if this sheep and goats is not God telling us that "in you" there is a separation taking place and he is calling out the carnality in me from the godliness in me? The godliness in me leads me into the kingdom of his presence whereas the ungodliness in me remains hindered and blind, in need of purging by the fire of his glory to refine all of me into the wholeness of his full nature to manifest freely in every aspect of my life.
Which of these scenerios would benefit my spirit man the most? The one where nations outwardly are going to be either rewarded or cast out? Or the nations "within" me that God is promising to bring "all" of me into a place of purity and wholeness? I'm opting for the latter.
I always like your posts. They always make me think. I wonder though...why is this being described as taking place at the 1000 year reign? Are not all believers having their being seperated today? Are we not all being divided, purified, being purged by the fire of the Holy Spirit? I believe so. So, in your opinion are these verses talking about a seperate purification or what is happening today?
Ooooo, big can of worms hwere . . . for one, the thousand year reign with Christ is not in Matthew, which is where the sheep and goat principle is at, but instead it's in Revelation. Secondly, I'm not a supporter of the "literal" thousand year reign. I believe the 1000 year issue is another inward principle. Everything in Revelation is based on the tabernacle of Moses. The tabernacle is patterned after Christ, Revelation is an unveiling of Christ. To see the Revelation, we also must see it through the tabernacle.
"in" the tabernacle, there is one room with dimensions that have the sum of 1000. And that is the Holy of Holies . . .it's 10x10x10. The thousand year reign is not a literal spance of time, but it's an inward posiition we have in Christ. The Holy of hoies is all about personal intimacy with the Father through the Son. And yes, that's a "NOW" kind of thing that we experienced yesterday, today and will continue to experience it until the fulness of all things come to materialize in and through us.
I have been good at unintentionally opening those lately. :bigGrin: I must admit one of my bigger weaknesses in my Biblical knowledge is anything to do with "end times" "1000 year reign" etc. Your thoughts intrigue me because I have been taught such literal interpretations for years about these portions of scripture. But, we see that so many times throughout the Bible that most stories, imagery seems to be symbolic...with people hearing without understanding.
I do wonder outloud...without trying to change the subject or redirect I am curious about your thoughts on this. What is the imagery of satan being bound during that 1000 years then let loosed again for a short time?
You're making this way too fun for me!! First off . . . please keep in mind that what I share is simply what I see "from where I'm at" in Christ. It's all about perspectives. It's the old principle of "Seek and you shall find . . ." If I look for a literal application, then that's what I'll see. And that's what I've done for years. I live in a natural realm and taking things literally to my natural environment was just how it was. In growing up, we'd scoff at people that didn't believe the things we saw as so obvious that you had to be in total denial to see it any other way than how "we" saw it. That mindset is still alive and well.
But what caused me to loosen my grip on literal applications was the constant calling from higher places than my mind could embrace. As I read Scripture, it became clear that whenever there was a change in spiritual climate, whenever a revelation was given, a new thing was revealed, it was in a higher place. The "upper" room. The mountain where God gave Moses instruction for carrying out the law. The "mount" of transfiguration. The cross itself is elevated above the ground . . .in the book of Revelation where John heard a voice say "come up here". Did the disciples really have to be in an upper room for the Holy Spirit to be poured out? Did it really have to be in an elevated place where Jesus revealed his true form and nature to the disciples? And if John was already in the spirit on the Lord's day when the Revelation of Jesus was poured out on him . . .why then was he still being called to "come up here?"
When Peter saw the sheet being lowered from heaven . . .he was asleep on a rooftop. When the crowds "in the house" were so great that the guy on the stretcher had to be lowered "from above" . . .it goes on and on. So the pattern then snaps in with the call to us to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh . . .which fits with the passage that states "flesh profiteth nothing" So over the last several years, I've yielded to the process of "de'construction in my religious system and while yielding to that, I then yielded to His "re"construction of his true nature in me. And as a result, the old passed away and everything became as new.
I've taught on the book of Revelation three times in my minsitry. The first time was by the traditional understanding, the second was from a tape series from a guy named Randall Worley by which I transcribed all 34 tapes word-for-word. But at about the 5th or 6th tape I started adding comments alongside of what he was saying because I was beginning to see for myself the things he was saying.
The third time I taught on it, I just picked up the Scritpure and we went through it verse by verse, but this time, everything was from a dimensional perspective rather than a traditional or a literal one and it put a completely different message and meaning in every word. It took us about 7 months to get through it on my first trip. It took 5 years to get through it on the last two . . .they were back to back.
I know I didn't answer your question yet . . .but for some reason, once I get past a certain point in posting something, my script page freaks out on me . . .so I'm just going to start another post until it does it again.
Okay, this satan being bound for a thousand years . . .
First, may take on satan is that it's not a spiritual entity that we're to be applying this to, but it's the caral part of my inward nature. It's always an adversary toward the kingdom principles, the nature of Jesus and his plan for my life. The thousand year reign "with" him for me, is the same as what Ephesians tells us that we are already seated "with" him in high places. The high places are not literal high places, but they are elevated mindsets . . .ascended places are spiritual revelation, they are God's universal language for revealing the nature of Jesus to us. Jesus "is" the ascended place. He "is" the Sabbath . . .he's the Sabbath of Sabbaths . . he's the Jubilee.
The way i get my "self" into the spirit, into the realm where I can rule and reign with Christ is by taking "captive" my thoughts that are carnal. The adversarial part of my nature is bound . .when it is bound, I am then enabled to enter into the Holy of hoiles. Now, because my soul is still manifesting in this body of flesh, I know that not all things have been fully completed yet. This natural realm has not yet come to the end of the overall plan. In the spirit, it's all finished. But in this realm, it's still bound by the natural laws of time which means those who are dependant on this realm for life support, we are affected and influenced by those same laws.
Which is to say that even though, as I've come to invite Christ in my heart and am now enabled to walk in the spirit, my carnal self is still also very much alive. But now the difference is, I'm no longer bound, governed and controled by my adversarial mind every second of every day. It can't control me every breathing moment of my life because I've yielded myself to the intimacy of the Father . .the holy of holies, the thousand year experience with Christ.
So now instead of the adversary in me controlling me every moment, it's bound . .but there are still times where it's loosened . . .by me . .because even though we have the ability to rule and reign, we are still flesh, we still make bad decisions from time to time . . .we still give power to our flesh even though we have been resurrected to life, we still react to our flesh from time to time. But instead of focusing on the fact that SATAN WILL BE LOOSED for a short season. I see this now should instead be saying satan will be loosed FOR A SHORT SEASON.
Which is saying that no longer are we forever controled by the flesh, but now, it's power con only affect us in seasons.
Make any sense??
Quote from: Nathan on January 16, 2011, 02:44:22 AM
I know I didn't answer your question yet . . .but for some reason, once I get past a certain point in posting something, my script page freaks out on me . . .so I'm just going to start another post until it does it again.
Okay, this satan being bound for a thousand years . . .
First, may take on satan is that it's not a spiritual entity that we're to be applying this to, but it's the caral part of my inward nature. It's always an adversary toward the kingdom principles, the nature of Jesus and his plan for my life. The thousand year reign "with" him for me, is the same as what Ephesians tells us that we are already seated "with" him in high places. The high places are not literal high places, but they are elevated mindsets . . .ascended places are spiritual revelation, they are God's universal language for revealing the nature of Jesus to us. Jesus "is" the ascended place. He "is" the Sabbath . . .he's the Sabbath of Sabbaths . . he's the Jubilee.
The way i get my "self" into the spirit, into the realm where I can rule and reign with Christ is by taking "captive" my thoughts that are carnal. The adversarial part of my nature is bound . .when it is bound, I am then enabled to enter into the Holy of hoiles. Now, because my soul is still manifesting in this body of flesh, I know that not all things have been fully completed yet. This natural realm has not yet come to the end of the overall plan. In the spirit, it's all finished. But in this realm, it's still bound by the natural laws of time which means those who are dependant on this realm for life support, we are affected and influenced by those same laws.
Which is to say that even though, as I've come to invite Christ in my heart and am now enabled to walk in the spirit, my carnal self is still also very much alive. But now the difference is, I'm no longer bound, governed and controled by my adversarial mind every second of every day. It can't control me every breathing moment of my life because I've yielded myself to the intimacy of the Father . .the holy of holies, the thousand year experience with Christ.
So now instead of the adversary in me controlling me every moment, it's bound . .but there are still times where it's loosened . . .by me . .because even though we have the ability to rule and reign, we are still flesh, we still make bad decisions from time to time . . .we still give power to our flesh even though we have been resurrected to life, we still react to our flesh from time to time. But instead of focusing on the fact that SATAN WILL BE LOOSED for a short season. I see this now should instead be saying satan will be loosed FOR A SHORT SEASON.
Which is saying that no longer are we forever controled by the flesh, but now, it's power con only affect us in seasons.
Make any sense??
Absolutely. This speaks well with my spirit. It's certainly the battle fought within me. It seems to be mostly independant of circumstances and a near constant raging battle. I have told my wife I get exhausted by it from time to time...then I enter the Lord's rest. It seems like when I just can't take any more of it and I feel myself cracking...I am given that rest...I regroup and it begins again. My hope is this battle gets easier. It seems my spirit wins over my flesh more days than not. But, on the days when my flesh wins...I have a tough time rebounding. Guilt is a problem for me and it slows my growth. Anyways, thank you for that. I spoke well to me.
You're not alone in this battle of flesh and spirit. We all have that going on inside us. Paul had it and he even prayed that God would deliver him from the thorns in his flesh and once again the kindom principles come in to play in such a way our minds can not comprehend.
I'm a strong advocate for the fact that our righteousness isn't something we can acheive through our works or labors. Whether I'm successful in my struggles or not is not what makes me more or less righteous. I lay it all down, I lay down the struggle, I lay down the whole thing. Today, this is what I am . . .I fail at this and I succeed at that . . .the truth is, when we spend our energies on our struggles, that takes away our attention from exercising our dominion in other areas. We become so SELFconscious of our issues that we are distracted from the fact that . . .HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT.
Me overcoming my struggles is not what God rewards me for . . .but me embracing the fact that his grace is more sufficient than my abilities . .now "that's" something worth hanging on to. The more I embrace his grace, the more his grace abounds in me and the less I allow the guilt to be my guide and believe it or not, inevidibly, the less I give in to those temptations that were once such a stronghold in certain areas of my life.
The more the adversary in us can redirect our attention from who we truly are in Christ, the more control, the more bondage we find ourselves in, and the less we are able to manifest his power into other people's lives around us. That's why it's so important to pursue the things of the spirt adn not of the flesh. SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM . . .that's becoming a battle cry with me lately.
Quote from: Nathan on January 16, 2011, 12:56:57 AM
Ooooo, big can of worms hwere . . . for one, the thousand year reign with Christ is not in Matthew, which is where the sheep and goat principle is at, but instead it's in Revelation. Secondly, I'm not a supporter of the "literal" thousand year reign. I believe the 1000 year issue is another inward principle. Everything in Revelation is based on the tabernacle of Moses. The tabernacle is patterned after Christ, Revelation is an unveiling of Christ. To see the Revelation, we also must see it through the tabernacle.
"in" the tabernacle, there is one room with dimensions that have the sum of 1000. And that is the Holy of Holies . . .it's 10x10x10. The thousand year reign is not a literal spance of time, but it's an inward posiition we have in Christ. The Holy of hoies is all about personal intimacy with the Father through the Son. And yes, that's a "NOW" kind of thing that we experienced yesterday, today and will continue to experience it until the fulness of all things come to materialize in and through us.
:cloud9: I'm with you..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Nathan on January 16, 2011, 06:26:42 AM
You're not alone in this battle of flesh and spirit. We all have that going on inside us. Paul had it and he even prayed that God would deliver him from the thorns in his flesh and once again the kindom principles come in to play in such a way our minds can not comprehend.
I'm a strong advocate for the fact that our righteousness isn't something we can acheive through our works or labors. Whether I'm successful in my struggles or not is not what makes me more or less righteous. I lay it all down, I lay down the struggle, I lay down the whole thing. Today, this is what I am . . .I fail at this and I succeed at that . . .the truth is, when we spend our energies on our struggles, that takes away our attention from exercising our dominion in other areas. We become so SELFconscious of our issues that we are distracted from the fact that . . .HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT.
Me overcoming my struggles is not what God rewards me for . . .but me embracing the fact that his grace is more sufficient than my abilities . .now "that's" something worth hanging on to. The more I embrace his grace, the more his grace abounds in me and the less I allow the guilt to be my guide and believe it or not, inevidibly, the less I give in to those temptations that were once such a stronghold in certain areas of my life.
The more the adversary in us can redirect our attention from who we truly are in Christ, the more control, the more bondage we find ourselves in, and the less we are able to manifest his power into other people's lives around us. That's why it's so important to pursue the things of the spirt adn not of the flesh. SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM . . .that's becoming a battle cry with me lately.
Thank you for that. Then I think we have pinpointed an area in which I need to grow. I know there is a part of me that still feels like I need to be "good enough". The fact is I will never be good enough. I need to walk in his grace daily and hold firm to the truth which is I am a child of God. Some days I do this better than others. What I do know is the guilt is bondage and with that brings forth all sorts of unhealthy compensations in my life. It certainly distracts me, discourages me, and when it is full grown will lead me away from relationship with Christ.
I will be praying for growth in this area of my walk. I ask any willing party to remember me in their prayers as well.
:cloud9: I will......and I wanted to add that what freed me from that was knowing that we were lowered into what had us in bondage because we had to have something to overcome. It says "not willingly"; that means it was not of ourself, the "make-up" of us was itself already predetermined, which means the outcome of our "shortcomings" was also predetermined, BUT so was the grace needed to overcome them, ie. He subjected us with hope.
And it's not, "the devil made me do it" excuse, it's HE lowered us so we could learn and learn to love Him with the same unconditional love He first loved us with. In our finite understanding, we think we only have to love others unconditionally, but we also have to love Him unconditionally, because as David said, "Though He slay me, yet will I love Him." And as Job found out, we must accept whatever He throws at us, understanding that He knows what is best, even when it appears to be "bad". And it's a hard lesson to learn. My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 16, 2011, 07:53:18 PM
:cloud9: I will......and I wanted to add that what freed me from that was knowing that we were lowered into what had us in bondage because we had to have something to overcome. It says "not willingly"; that means it was not of ourself, the "make-up" of us was itself already predetermined, which means the outcome of our "shortcomings" was also predetermined, BUT so was the grace needed to overcome them, ie. He subjected us with hope.
And it's not, "the devil made me do it" excuse, it's HE lowered us so we could learn and learn to love Him with the same unconditional love He first loved us with. In our finite understanding, we think we only have to love others unconditionally, but we also have to love Him unconditionally, because as David said, "Though He slay me, yet will I love Him." And as Job found out, we must accept whatever He throws at us, understanding that He knows what is best, even when it appears to be "bad". And it's a hard lesson to learn. My :2c:
Thank you for that. I do have a head understanding of what you are saying. It needs to go from my head to my heart.
:cloud9: In time it will :happygrin:
Rewards in the Kingdom of heaven are given to those who serve without thought of reward. There is no hint of merit here, for God gives out of grace, not debt. Footnotes from NIV.
Quote from: Nathan on January 16, 2011, 02:44:22 AM
I know I didn't answer your question yet . . .but for some reason, once I get past a certain point in posting something, my script page freaks out on me . . .so I'm just going to start another post until it does it again.
Okay, this satan being bound for a thousand years . . .
First, may take on satan is that it's not a spiritual entity that we're to be applying this to, but it's the caral part of my inward nature. It's always an adversary toward the kingdom principles, the nature of Jesus and his plan for my life. The thousand year reign "with" him for me, is the same as what Ephesians tells us that we are already seated "with" him in high places. The high places are not literal high places, but they are elevated mindsets . . .ascended places are spiritual revelation, they are God's universal language for revealing the nature of Jesus to us. Jesus "is" the ascended place. He "is" the Sabbath . . .he's the Sabbath of Sabbaths . . he's the Jubilee.
The way i get my "self" into the spirit, into the realm where I can rule and reign with Christ is by taking "captive" my thoughts that are carnal. The adversarial part of my nature is bound . .when it is bound, I am then enabled to enter into the Holy of hoiles. Now, because my soul is still manifesting in this body of flesh, I know that not all things have been fully completed yet. This natural realm has not yet come to the end of the overall plan. In the spirit, it's all finished. But in this realm, it's still bound by the natural laws of time which means those who are dependant on this realm for life support, we are affected and influenced by those same laws.
Which is to say that even though, as I've come to invite Christ in my heart and am now enabled to walk in the spirit, my carnal self is still also very much alive. But now the difference is, I'm no longer bound, governed and controled by my adversarial mind every second of every day. It can't control me every breathing moment of my life because I've yielded myself to the intimacy of the Father . .the holy of holies, the thousand year experience with Christ.
So now instead of the adversary in me controlling me every moment, it's bound . .but there are still times where it's loosened . . .by me . .because even though we have the ability to rule and reign, we are still flesh, we still make bad decisions from time to time . . .we still give power to our flesh even though we have been resurrected to life, we still react to our flesh from time to time. But instead of focusing on the fact that SATAN WILL BE LOOSED for a short season. I see this now should instead be saying satan will be loosed FOR A SHORT SEASON.
Which is saying that no longer are we forever controled by the flesh, but now, it's power con only affect us in seasons.
Make any sense??
I enjoyed reading all your posts here, Nathan. Thank you! :bigGrin:
I also agree that the battle is within us. Just as you mentioned, the people were thinking about the physical temple, but Jesus was referring to Himself.
The Son of God and the son of perdition are at work in us now. Before Christ came, we saw only Adam 1 at work, destroying, killing, stealing within.
But since Calvary, Adam 1 has an enemy which continually puts bruises his head, and that is Adam 2, or Christ Himself.
Every man has the Seed of Christ now; just as we were made partakers of the flesh, so we are now also partakers of the heavenly.
The "battle" aisi, is to allow our New Nature, our New Adam, to manifest and bloom within us. And if we allow Him to bloom, we will see the fruits come forth: love, peace, longsuffering (patience), kindness, meekness, humility, joy, tolerance, etc.
So all mankind has been "put" into the New Adam, and the Old Adam must die, even though it is already dead. (as mentioned in Revelation, the "beast" who was, and is not, and yet is.") The Old Adam was; now it is not (because it was replaced by Jesus Christ, or Adam 2), and yet it is, because it has not been fully replaced or "taken out of the way."
I just felt led to write this... hope it helps!..
Blessings!
brian
Don't hesitate with that man, you are talking on angels wings . . .it's what gives us the ability to fly. I like your take on Adam one and Adam 2 . . . that resonates.
The idea that the judgment in Matt 25 is nations is raising questions....
Nations are made up of individual people (collectively)...
How can this be a national judgment? SO a person from Ohio that didn't even think of Israel....how will this affect them?
Jesus does not represent Israel, but ALL MEN....so, when Jesus says that they didn't feed or clothe him....how can this mean Israelites?
Quote from: nesto on March 04, 2011, 03:50:11 AM
The idea that the judgment in Matt 25 is nations is raising questions....
Nations are made up of individual people (collectively)...
How can this be a national judgment? SO a person from Ohio that didn't even think of Israel....how will this affect them?
Jesus does not represent Israel, but ALL MEN....so, when Jesus says that they didn't feed or clothe him....how can this mean Israelites?
Indeed a little weird. But we very often see the averge man gets punished for the crimes of leadership. The prime example of that is the Pharao. All kind of plagues hit Egypt.
Who were affected most by those plagues? The small unimportant Egyptians. They starved because their food was destroyed. The Pharao was angry; but still lived in great luxery in his palace. Things haven't changed much since then. How many Americans even knew Iraq existed until Bush decided it was time for some slaying in the gulf area when he was playing golf?
I so see things in a similar fashion as you, Nathan and I see something, through a glass darkly, but I see something that you probably do too but I'd like your input on it. I don't stop at seeing the sheep and goats as representing something within me, I don't stop at all things Scriptural representing aspects of who I and all humans are. I see Jesus as representing the Holy spiritual aspect of my essence.
Do you see this?
2 big questions are doing somthing in me. What is God? What is Jesus?
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on January 16, 2011, 07:53:18 PM
:cloud9: I will......and I wanted to add that what freed me from that was knowing that we were lowered into what had us in bondage because we had to have something to overcome. It says "not willingly"; that means it was not of ourself, the "make-up" of us was itself already predetermined, which means the outcome of our "shortcomings" was also predetermined, BUT so was the grace needed to overcome them, ie. He subjected us with hope.
And it's not, "the devil made me do it" excuse, it's HE lowered us so we could learn and learn to love Him with the same unconditional love He first loved us with. In our finite understanding, we think we only have to love others unconditionally, but we also have to love Him unconditionally, because as David said, "Though He slay me, yet will I love Him." And as Job found out, we must accept whatever He throws at us, understanding that He knows what is best, even when it appears to be "bad". And it's a hard lesson to learn. My :2c:
Card, how you do it (make old things so new) is beyond me but I'm thanking God for you!
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 23, 2011, 02:50:26 AM
I so see things in a similar fashion as you, Nathan and I see something, through a glass darkly, but I see something that you probably do too but I'd like your input on it. I don't stop at seeing the sheep and goats as representing something within me, I don't stop at all things Scriptural representing aspects of who I and all humans are. I see Jesus as representing the Holy spiritual aspect of my essence.
Do you see this?
2 big questions are doing somthing in me. What is God? What is Jesus?
cp
Long time no see!! Glad to see you out and about again. I would say that beings we are images made after the Father that yeah, there are definitely many resemblances between our essence and the Father's nature.
What is God and what is Jesus . . .and you left one out .what is the HS. For me . . THEY are God, manifesting in Fathership, sonship and the breath of life, God is Christ, Jesus is God, if you've SEEN Jesus, you've seen the Father because they are one . . .the Spirit breathes the essences of God into all of us. Like an egg, like man himself . . .you can't separate one from the others without affecting the continuity of the whole.
I hear ya Nathan and I missed all of you here. Time just gets away from a person.
I don't ask in any disrespectful way at all when I ask the two questions. I am seeing God as all that makes us what we are. Really, what is not God? I'm not going for mystical here or new age verbage. What is not God? What is not made up of something of God? Is there any 'material', spiritual or physical, that is not of God? And if 'of God' is that not God, at least in a limited sense?
Adam is a physical person yet represents so much more. Is Jesus any different in this context? Hmmmmmmm.
I'm just thinking out loud here and hoping for some helpful input.
If I can define God, even in my own limited way, then I can understand my role in His program, even if in some limited way. It is not us and God or me and Hitler or us and them. To me it is God, period. And I am an extension of Him, created for His glory and pleasure.
Got to run.
cp
Amen to that . . . it falls in line with "the kingdom of heaven is IN YOU . . ." Emanuel . . .God with us . . .there are so many levels to this that there really isn't just "one" answer.
Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible <blockquote> Matt. 25:46: Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word (aionion)
aionios -- it must be admitted (1) that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and an ending (Rom. 16:25), where the Greek is "from aeonian times;" our version giving "since the world began." (Comp. 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:3)--strictly speaking, therefore, the word, as such, apart from its association with any qualifying substantive, implies a vast undefined duration, rather than one in the full sense of the word "infinite."</blockquote>
The Encyclopedia Dictionary of the Bible (Catholic Bible Dictionary), p. 693 <blockquote> ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word
olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gn. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as "forever," means in itself no more than "for an indefinitely long period." Thus,
me olam does not mean "from eternity" but "of old" (Gn. 6:4, etc.). In the N.T.
aion is used as the equivalent of
olam.</blockquote> Dr. F.W. Farrar,
The Eternal Hope, p. 198
<blockquote> That the adjective is applied to some things which are "endless" does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant "endless," and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd.</blockquote> Dr. F.W. Farrar,
Mercy and Judgment, p. 378
<blockquote> Since
aion meant "age,"
aionios means, properly, "belonging to an age," or "age-long," and anyone who asserts that it must mean "endless" defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago. Even if
aion always meant "eternity," which is not the case in classic or Hellenistic Greek--
aionios could still mean only "belonging to eternity" and not "lasting through it."</blockquote> Hasting's
Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. 1, p. 542, art.
Christ and the Gospels <blockquote> There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or in the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity.</blockquote> (Vol. III, p. 369) Eternal, everlasting--nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come into the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of
aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun
aion from which it comes.
The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. IV, p. 643 <blockquote> Time: The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word
aion originally meant "vital force," "life;" then "age," "lifetime." It is, however, also used generally of a (limited or unlimited long space of time. The use of the word
aion is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX.
Aion means "long distant uninterrupted time" in the past (Luke 1:10), as well as in the future (John 4:14).</blockquote>
Lange's Commentary American Edition, Vol. V, p. 48 <blockquote> On Ecclesiastes 1:4. The preacher, in contending with the universalist, or restorationist, would commit an error, and, it may be, suffer a failure in his argument, should he lay the whole stress of it on the etymological or historical significance of the words,
aion, aionios, and attempt to prove that, of themselves, they necessarily carry the meaning of endless duration.</blockquote> Dr. MacKnight
<blockquote> I must be so candid as to acknowledge that the use of these terms, "forever," "eternal," "everlasting," shows that they who understand these words in a limited sense when applied to punishment put no forced interpretation upon them.</blockquote>
The Parkhurst Lexicon <blockquote> Olam (aeon) seems to be used much more for an indefinite than for an infinite time.</blockquote> G. Campbell Morgan,
God's Methods With Men, pp. 185-186
<blockquote> Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word "eternity." We have fallen into great error in our constant usage of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our "eternal," which as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end.</blockquote>
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII, p. 96 <blockquote> Under the instruction of those great teachers, many other theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church until after 500 A.D. was inclined to it. Doederlein says that "In proportion as any man was eminent in learning in Christian antiquity, the more did he cherish and defend the hope of the termination of future torments." Many more church historians could be quoted with similar observations.</blockquote> Philippson,
Israel Religionslehre (11:255)
<blockquote> The Rabbi teach no eternity of hell torments; even the greatest sinners were punished for generations.</blockquote> Dr. Alford Plumer,
An Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, pp. 351-352
<blockquote> It is often pointed out that "eternal" (
aionios) in "eternal punishment" must have the same meaning as in "eternal life." No doubt, but that does not give us the right to say that "eternal" in both cases means "endless."</blockquote> Dr. Edward Plumptre (Eschatologist)
<blockquote> I fail to find, as is used by the Greek Fathers, any instance in which the idea of time duration is unlimited.</blockquote>
The Pulpit Commentary, Vol. 15, p. 485 <blockquote> It is possible that "aeonian" may denote merely indefinite duration without the connotation of never ending.</blockquote> G. T. Stevenson,
Time and Eternity <blockquote> (Page 63) Since, as we have seen, the noun
aion refers to a period of time, it appears very improbable that the derived adjective
aionios would indicate infinite duration, nor have we found any evidence in Greek writing to show that such a concept was expressed by this term.
(Page 72) In 1 Cor. 15:22-29 the inspired apostle to the Gentiles transports his readers' thoughts far into the future, beyond the furthest point envisaged elsewhere in holy writ. After outlining the triumph of the Son of God in bringing all creation under His benign control, Paul sets forth the consummation of the divine plan of the ages in four simple, yet infinitely profound words, "God all in all." This is our God, purposeful, wise, loving, and almighty, His Son our Lord a triumphant Savior, Who destroys His enemies by making them friends.</blockquote> Jeremy Taylor, author of
Systematic Hellology, which advocates the common belief in eternal torment, later writes a modified view in
Jeremy Taylor's Works, Vol. III, p. 43.
<blockquote> Though the fire is everlasting, not all that enters it is everlasting . . . . "The word everlasting signifies only to the end of its period.</blockquote> Dr. Nigel Turner,
Christian Words, p. 457
<blockquote> All the way through, it is never feasible to understand
aionios as everlasting. </blockquote> Dr. (Prof.) Marvin Vincent,
Word Studies of the New Testament, Vol. IV
<blockquote> (Page 59) The adjective
aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting."
aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Out of the 150 instances in the LXX (Septuagint), four-fifths imply limited duration.
(Page 291, about 2 Tim. 1:9) "Before the world began" (
pro chronon aionion) Lit. Before eternal times. If it is insisted that
aionion means everlasting, this statement is absurd. It is impossible that anything should take place before everlasting times.</blockquote> Charles H. Welch, editor of
The Berean Expositor, wrote in
An Alphabetical Analysis, Vol. I
<blockquote> (Page 52) What we have to learn is that the Bible does not speak of eternity. It is not written to tell us of eternity. Such a consideration is entirely outside the scope of revelation.
(Page 279) Eternity is not a Biblical theme.</blockquote> Dr. R.F. Weymouth,
The New Testament in Modern Speech, p. 657
<blockquote> Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.</blockquote>
I found this explanation of Matthew 25:46: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/proof_texts_on_endless_punishment.html#everlasting_punishment (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/proof_texts_on_endless_punishment.html#everlasting_punishment)
Click on everlasting punishment.
It is written in a book called "Proof Texts of Endless Punishment, Examined and Explained."
It was published in 1862 and written by D.P. Livermore.
I'm wondering if some of you might look it over and comment on the author's explanation. I'm curious if it still stands the "test of time" in the view of those who are more researched that I am on the subject. I thought it was quite good. How would you anticipate an ECT person to counter-argue?
Here is a little excerpt:
QuoteFirst, The different classes of individuals referred to in the text, are acquitted and condemned on account of their Works, and therefore the subject cannot refer to the immortal world; for heaven is not to be attained by good works! Eternal life is the pure, free and unpurchased gift of God, and is not of works of righteousness that we have done, lest any man should boast!
The second important consideration to which we invite the reader's attention, is, that the original word kolasis, supposed to teach the doctrine of endless punishment, was frequently applied, as lexicographers inform us, to the pruning of trees. In this sense, its application here is full of significance. It shows at once the important object of punishment, viz.: to improve and benefit man. For what purpose are trees pruned? Not to injure them, certainly; but to improve them. Such being clearly the object of punishment, under the government of an all-wise and benevolent God, hence this term kolasis was appropriately employed in the text.
Lexicographers define kolasis thus: "Punishment, chastisement, correction, the pruning of trees." This "everlasting punishment" (aionios kolasis) is designed for some wise and benevolent purpose, not absolutely to injure, but ultimately to benefit and improve those chastened.
Again: The word rendered everlasting (aionios) is not the same word as is translated endless, and therefore the doctrine of endless punishment is not taught in the passage, under consideration. The word endless, from akatalutos, occurs but once in the Bible, Heb. 7:16. "After the power of an endless life."
HI all just joined today so im throwing myself in at the deep end really :eek:
Having pretty much read all the posts im worried if I take on all the inward implications literaully I will become self obsessed. The nations are the nations arent they? When I read a post guessing the nations as been in Abrahamn or something aren't we pushing it a bit far? I do think there are outward literaul things in scripture also surely? Is the sun the sun? Is the stars something within us too? Could there be a trip up if we saw all things as inner metaphors? Or a type of this or that? We could go on & on but I rejoice knowing that not only is the inward things what matter but also things outside of me making an impression on me. I can find much joy in taking in Gods nature & creation, In doing unto him by helping the poor & needy, Its a mysterious thing but as he feeds us as the bread of life the living word to us, he longs to see us stretch out our hand wide to the needy, which comes as if wearing a mask & Jesus is behind the need in human suffering waiting for his servants who claim to love him fufilling the ultimae love in return to our daily bread. These are healthy outward things looking out of ourself to others needs, I see these as God's genius ways of freeing mankind from himself all at the same time, almost like killing 2 birds with one stone? I prefer to think of such many outward things this way & it feels right in my heart too, I think its silly to take everything as a metaphor? When are we allowed to accept something at face value?
Turning everything into spiritual metaphors pointing to the inward meanings makes me look inwardly in over excess when I need to be looking OUT of me afterall I am so corrupt contrary to the spirit naturally nothing is a better medicine just accepting the water gets here somewhere but I completley dont know how? Simple stupid & let the waters flow out of me
Hope I made some sense on just a general tendancy nothing more? Hope was worth throwing in the mixer :dontknow:
Hey battle. :)
I have found that it's both, in my experience. The clincher is waiting on God to reveal these things to me rather than making them up in my own brain (which is never smart and always wrong lol). The more I see the more I truly believe that everything in the law is an example for us for what happens in spirit. (Types and shadows.) The scriptures (and even every aspect of our lives) has been so meticulously planned that it completely blows my mind. He's amazing!!
Sheep and goats.
It is always going to come up when trying to prove ET, annihilation, and UR.
It seems that the sheep are quite pround of their sheepliness.
From the perspective of trying to prove your sectarian bend, how do you know you are not a goat? We all fall short of actually "doing this unto the least of these".
In the end we serve up doctrine. In the end what we give is the message of Christ. Of the three sectarian interpretations, the one that makes most sense, is the one that we all goatishly go with.
Sheep and goats. Anyone have a good online article for the UR interpretation.
Thanks,
Ed
not an online article..but a personal 'beleif'........the sheep are all men....white..because of God's
will/plan/Christ positive. the goats are black..satans angels/demons.-negative.
if a sheep overcome[the saints overcome] becomes a 'black' sheep=exhibits negative
black characteristics/image of corrupt.
Christ/light/white/sacred...man in God's image.........
Jesus Christ has power and authority to change a black sheep unto a white sheep in
this life..remove darkness..have sheep exhibit positive characteristics of light.
some sheep serve as examples of light and some dark for learning of all[good/evil exercize.
at end of exercize[all black sheep turned into white[prodigal's return home] exercize over
all sheep with the shepherd..all sheep white....negative/black/goatimage no longer needed
or used as teaching tool.
transition of a black sheep to a white sheep.........if some darkness remain while in this life
is a spotted sheep[spots and blemishes remain]
sheep...man goat-demon [Lev 17;7 Isaaih13;21 Lev 16;22]
see Jacob/Israel and Laban dispute of flocks.......wages changed 10 times..Christ blood
redeemed all mankind..though your sins be as scarlet..yet they shall be white as snow....
see red cloth turn white..goat sent off to perish in wilderness and never enter the city.
goats can survive and forage on briars thorns etc[cursed is the ground on account of you
it shall bring up thorns and thistle's for you] sheep become entrapped of them and need
grass/pasture[all flesh is grass=man=sheep] I will take away the stoney heart and give you
a heart of flesh
all men are sheep...even the 'black sheep' of the family/prodigals...sheep can also be
lost sheep..and be found of their shepherd. All shall pass under the rod of the Shepherd.
Ezekiel 20;34 -44 I will take note of you as you pass under the rod..and I will bring
you into the bond of the covenant...I will purge you of those who revolt and rebel against me
[goats seperated=goat-shaped demons perish in wilderness..seperate the people=
sheep have 'black/negative' contrast removed from them[delivered from the wicked one]
[resurrection of righteous/wicked
wickedness removed...although I will bring them out of the land they were living[resurrection
of the wicked] yet they will not enter the land of Israel[see resurrection/insurrection]
thus that wicked generation[black goat shaped demons] shall perish in the wilderness
and not enter the Holy city/ dark evil contrast removed..cloth turns scarlet/white
there are wolves in sheep clothing..and sheep in wolves clothing.........
SOS..the goat shepherdess.........she's dark...and is instructed by Him to graze her
young 'goats' by the tents of the shepherds....He must remove her 'darkness'
seperate her from and deliver her from the wicked one.........why would you look upon
the shulamite as upon the dance f Mahanaim[two camps/camp of God/camp of the Holy city]
kingdom of darkness/kingdom of light
Come! take life's waters free! outside..are the darkness..enter in the sheepgate
that the Shepherd has opened and no-one can close.
.
:cloud9: An older thread but well worth a re-read.
Loved your last post, Sheila.....Blessings....
PS. And there are some sheep who just appear to be black (taking on image of sinful flesh), but in reality, they are performing the Father's perfect will. :winkgrin:
oh yes...just as He took on the appearance of sin..........
you know,He counsels us to be 'cautious as serpents,yet innocent as doves" and says the children of light are not as
wise in this respect as the children of the world. the snake lifted up on the pole........
when someone come in with a new revelation[word of knowledge] caution is warranted due to being mistaken as a serpent
and having your head crushed under the foot of some well meaning brother. Just as the early christians and Christ
were killed and those thinking they were doing God a service.......perceived as a wolf in sheep clothing;of which Paul
typified...first the wolf to the christians..then he appeared as a wlf to the Pharisees.
of course we have examples of those 'without the spirit/receiving and tthe baptism of the Holy spirit..that were yet to
receive..... and even examples of those preaching...'not according to accurate knowledge" and how that was dealt with.
Jesus Christ 'died' at just the right time..when people were still in sin/error..........a friend of sinners..He chose
thedespised things. If His spirit be in us...surely it,too, would lay down it's life........I have many things yet to declare unto you
but at present ye are unable to bear them He doesn't 'force feed' but He does speak of things that many stumbled over
He doesn't extinguish a sputtering wick. He ministers to it..that it may shine more brightly..adds oil..trims the wick....
He provides more abundant oil...He doesn't place it under a basket.
we,like the angels..are fellow ministers to those who are going to inherit eternal life[all men]
How is it that when you come togather some have a revelation some a Psalm......
Knowledge will increase[Daniel] there be spiritual gems and treasures to be discovered in the 'word of God'
hidden things[the glory of kings to seek ut a matter] brought into the spiritual city
:cloud9: Amen :thumbsup:
I think it's quite possible that when the words of Matthew 25:46 were spoken, the immediate audience pictured eternity. My understanding is that Jews of the Old Testament believed that the Messiah would come and establish an eternal Kingdom on earth. Even though the word "olam" is usually used in the Old Testament where the English translations have "forever" or "eternal," nothing beyond this earthly Kingdom is ever spoken of in the Old Testament, so naturally, Jews would concluded that the Messiah's coming should commence an eternal age on earth. While Christians speak of being resurrected to spent eternity in Heaven, the Old Testament Jews' expectation was to be resurrected to live eternally in a kingdom on earth.
Daniel wrote of some being resurrected to "everlasting life" and others to "everlasting contempt" (12:2). Regardless of what the underlying words are in the original language, it's a real stretch to say the immediate audience would envision a limited age. In a similar way, Jesus taught that there was a limited amount of time to qualify for entrance into the Kingdom which He would return to establish. Neither the Old Testament nor the Gospels suggest that if you are disqualified for the Kingdom, you will be reconsidered at a later date. And given the perception among Jews that the earthly Kingdom was eternal, the "aionian punishment" of Matthew 25 probably was understood as eternal punishment.
As New Testament revelation progressed, more phases in God's plan of the ages were revealed. In Revelation, it was revealed that the Messianic Kingdom on this present earth has a duration of 1000 years. Paul gives the previously unheard-of revelation that even the reign of Christ is not eternal, but that He will reign until all are subject to Him then subject Himself to God at the Consummation that God may be All in all (1 Corinthians 15:22-28). This is not revealed in the Old Testament, the Four Gospels, or the Book of Revelation. Revelation ends with the saints still reigning.
So, in light of later revelation, we can look back at Matthew 25:46 and say that the aionion punishment refers to a finite age, although it's true that the immediate context does not back this interpretation.
Quote from: Graph1159 on April 08, 2014, 01:55:22 AMMy understanding is that Jews of the Old Testament believed that the Messiah would come and establish an eternal Kingdom on earth.
......
Daniel wrote of some being resurrected to "everlasting life" and others to "everlasting contempt" (12:2). Regardless of what the underlying words are in the original language, it's a real stretch to say the immediate audience would envision a limited age.
I don't think it's a real stretch.
Jonah was in the fish for olam. ==> Olam=3 days
The slave stayed with his master for an olam that ends at death. ==> Olam=years
That clearly shows every ancient Jew understood olam as something with variable duration.
QuoteIn a similar way, Jesus taught that there was a limited amount of time to qualify for entrance into the Kingdom which He would return to establish. Neither the Old Testament nor the Gospels suggest that if you are disqualified for the Kingdom, you will be reconsidered at a later date.
In the OT we see that God rejects His people, puts them under some punishment and then takes them back. He even divorces them, but still He sends His Son to exactly that nation.
In Revelation we see people entering the kingdom at different times. The people who get resurrected 1st enter 1000 years before the next group.
Also in Revelation we read that New Jerusalem descents to earth. Obviously that happens when/after the Kingdom is established. The gates never shut and all bad people (thieves, murderers, etc) can't enter. I would say that's way past the limited time period to enter. But it isn't....
Even then people are offered to drink from the water of life. The people inside that city did so long ago and already have everlasting life.
There is a tree for the healing of nations. Everything inside the city is of perfect health. The offer is extended to the nations living outside the gates of New Jerusalem. A bit later we see kings entering the city. Those kings bring their people. Not for war but to submit/bring honor to TheKing.
The Greek word for punishment actually means correction. Correction always was of limited duration. Jesus/Apostles always used that word. The audience knew that word. Of course impossible to prove what each member the audience did (not) understand but all teachings used words that point to corrective limited punishment.
Mat 12:20 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he has brought justice through to victory.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
Wouldn't unending punishment snuff out the wick?
To summarize:
- I agree the NT added more information to the OT teachings.
- I'm not sure the Jews understood punishment as everlasting.
- All words regarding to punishment used words of limited duration. The word punishment is about something with an end too.