Tentmaker Forum

Many years ago, when I was exposed to anti-catholic protestant literature, I decided that the claim that the Church stopped existing when it apostates from the reign of Constantine to the Protestant Reformation or the formation of the Baptist Church (for the Landmarkists) denied the scriptures where Jesus promised the Church would not fall.  Expand that from just the Catholic Church to all professing denominations.  According to universalism, the Church went into error and taught a false gospel of a hell that only existed in pagan imaginations.  How would universalists explain the Church's falling away from truth and believing the lie of eternal torment?

That's not so easy to explain. It's just like societies gradually changes when large amounts of foreigners pour in.
Christianity started with very strong Jewish roots. For most early Christians it simply was being a Jew and replacing a few Jewish things with new Christians things. Christians even attended to regular synagoges and listened to sermons of 100% Jewish Rabbis.
Jews all looked at Christianity with Jewish eyes. They saw similarities with what they did before when they were Jews. But more and more gentiles got converted and they looked at Christianity with pagan eyes. That was no problem but there are always situations that aren't described in the Bible. Or aren't clear enough. A good example is that the Pharisees and Saducians had major disagreements. They didn't even agree when Passover was.
So (often unschooled) Jews and genitles mixed and discussed and paganism crept in. The problem is that there is very little documentation of the early days. Certainly not of insignificant people that just fellowshipped a bit. But if we read stuff of the church fathers it gets clear they were constantly in debate with pagan theologians. While the churchfathers disagreed on several/many points they all firmly agreed on the UR points. (the chairmen/leader dunno the correct word in English) of the first synodes were men with very strong UR views.
With Constantine thoses debates ended. He enforced his views with the sword. Council members who didn't agree were put under great pressure, got exiled, or killed. From that point on paganism was enforced.

Interesting, both the OP and WW's comments.  I agree that it's not easy to explain (or understand).

As one who believes God is working HIS plan, I'd have to say error and falling away must be part of His plan.  Some teach, what seems to me to be about as good as any explanation, that He's bringing us through dark times so we will be able to truly appreciate His Light.

I'd put the error and falling away right up there with Adam, Eve, and the "forbidden" fruit, in that, was God surprised?  Or did He have more to do with than that?   :2c:

Also, I beleve He's always had a remnant, a group who believed in Him and kept the faith.  That's the church - the ecclesia, the called out ones, not an organization.  Many have fallen, but the true church has not - they are the Sons of God.

Quote from: wwFrom that point on paganism was enforced.

I'm not sure what you mean by this or even what relevance it has.

What difference does it make that one is celebrating the birth of Jesus on the wrong day with pagan accoutrements like lighted trees?

All you have to do is look at Christmas carols to know what is in the hearts of those celebrating it.

I also agree with Jab.  The true church of believers existed, does exist, and will exist throughout the age.


O little town of Bethlehem
How still we see thee lie
Above thy deep and dreamless sleep
The silent stars go by
Yet in thy dark streets shineth
The everlasting Light
The hopes and fears of all the years
Are met in thee tonight

For Christ is born of Mary
And gathered all above
While mortals sleep, the angels keep
Their watch of wondering love
O morning stars together
Proclaim the holy birth
And praises sing to God the King
And Peace to men on earth

How silently, how silently
The wondrous gift is given!
So God imparts to human hearts
The blessings of His heaven.
No ear may his His coming,
But in this world of sin,
Where meek souls will receive him still,
The dear Christ enters in.

O holy Child of Bethlehem
Descend to us, we pray
Cast out our sin and enter in
Be born to us today
We hear the Christmas angels
The great glad tidings tell
O come to us, abide with us
Our Lord Emmanuel 

Also keep in mind there was never a "the Church".

---

The terms "Eastern" and "Western" in this regard originated with divisions in the church mirroring the cultural divide between the Hellenistic east and Latinate west and the political divide between the weak Western and strong Eastern Roman empires.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Christianity

---

"To illustrate the difference let me use a modern analogy. Let's say a teenager drives his car carelessly and is involved in a car accident that injures a friend of his riding in the car. He is taken to court and the judge fines him $1,000. He doesn't have the money, so his friend who was injured tells the judge that he would pay the fine. The judge accepts the offer and lets the guilty driver go free... But as soon as he leaves the court, guess what he does? He drives 60 mph in a school zone where the speed limit is 25. The young man has been forgiven, but has he changed? Not a bit. In fact, this judge is not concerned whether this teenager changes or not, because he sees his role as a judge to impose a penalty and make sure that the penalty is paid. After all, he is a judge, not a counselor, pastor, or psychologist.

But what if there was a second judge with a similar case, except that this judge said to the boy: "You are guilty, but your friend is paying the fine for you and therefore you are no longer legally liable to pay anything. You are free to go. But I'm not finished with you. You will have to go through some counseling. And you need to do some community service. You will have to attend driver's training classes. You will have to report to me every week. You will be on probation. I'm going to keep an eye on you until you can prove to me that you have changed your driving habits and you have become a responsible person."

The Western branch of the early church looked at sin and salvation the same way as the first judge.
Sin is a legal problem, a judicial problem. A man is guilty, and the guilty person must be punished, unless there is someone else who is willing to be punished in place of the guilty one.


The Eastern Church on the other hand looked at human nature differently. (second church)
...
The Eastern Church viewed sin as a disease in the human condition which needs healing. Forgiveness alone is not enough.
http://www.chrysaliscafe.com/2008/02/christian-theology-differences-between.html

What's the correct view: (I think the eastern view) http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/post/num_replies,2/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/matt._1618_...and_gates_hell_hades_shall_not_prevail_against_it_10042.0.html

Quote from: Molly on October 11, 2011, 11:45:25 AM

Quote from: wwFrom that point on paganism was enforced.

I'm not sure what you mean by this or even what relevance it has.

What difference does it make that one is celebrating the birth of Jesus on the wrong day with pagan accoutrements like lighted trees?

Paganism is much more than that. Trinity, priests, celibacy, popes, layout of the church, altars, hell, pulpits (hanging on the wall), worship of saints, statues of Greek/Roman gods in church, symbolism, etc.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 11, 2011, 11:59:59 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 11, 2011, 11:45:25 AM

Quote from: wwFrom that point on paganism was enforced.

I'm not sure what you mean by this or even what relevance it has.

What difference does it make that one is celebrating the birth of Jesus on the wrong day with pagan accoutrements like lighted trees?

Paganism is much more than that. Trinity, priests, celibacy, popes, layout of the church, altars, hell, pulpits (hanging on the wall), worship of saints, statues of Greek/Roman gods in church, symbolism, etc.

But the point is that what is important is somehow transmitted through and beyond all of that  to those appointed to eternal life.

Many religions believe in eternal life.
Anyway, one of the questions of the OP was how ET crept in. And that's what I explained.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 11, 2011, 12:36:14 PM
Many religions believe in eternal life.
Anyway, one of the questions of the OP was how ET crept in. And that's what I explained.

But we are talking of our religion and the true church of Jesus Christ.

And, I am saying the true church is individual believers no matter what denomination they come from---and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against them.

Molly I'd say the pagan symbolism is significant, otherwise God would not have told the Israelites to destroy their high places and Asherah poles.  You believe those other gods are fallen angels or sons of god (I think) and those rites of worship are directed at them. 

For me the problem with the pagan stuff in Christianity is not so much their past, but that we are to worship in spirit and truth.  The church has become a worship of the natural (not the true ecclesia I'm talking here) or at least a mixture of.

How many times I've heard "bring your worship into the house of god" meaning the church building, um last I knew we are the temple of the holy spirit.
There is only one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, except that guy who gets up on his tower (of babel) each sunday to tell me how to really interpret the "word of God" (wait I thought Jesus was the word of God?), I mean how can you really know unless you've been ordained or gone to seminary.
What is that main focal point in almost every church?  Oh that symbol for the sun-god, that is (possibly the mark of the beast) the cross (which Jesus didn't actually die on, but a tree or stake)
Thankfully we have the church bells to bring us in every sunday, oh those are ba'als originally, and represent osiris' testicles, and that church steeple is his penis. 

These things are what so many christians consider an important part of their worship, but remember that the Israelites thought they were worshipping God when they built the golden calf. 

the OP's question was how would we explain the church's falling away.  I'd say its the mixing of spirit and truth, with natural and false.  The pagan hell doctrine came in with the pagan symbolism, which is what you would expect if you are worshipping through carnal means, you will get carnal doctrines.

But, RHM, we are 20 centuries into this now and believers are still being born and nurtured through the churches.

Just about everyone on this board started out in a church.

Sixty million Christians were killed by the Communists in Russia--and the church still exists there and is thriving.

Those things you mention of steeples, bells, etc cannot stop the pure of heart from seeing God.

I worry about the children, because the children need a community that introduces them to Jesus.

We can say that church attendence is down these days, and we would be right.

But compared to the first century it is still up.

Churches, even the true church, will be around until this age is over.


1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Quote from: Molly on October 11, 2011, 02:04:48 PM
Those things you mention of steeples, bells, etc cannot stop the pure of heart from seeing God.

Again the OP was about how paganism crept in. Not if the church totally died.

What's a true believer? What's a Christian?
My view is that on forums like CARM there isn't a single Christian besides perhaps the people that got banned there....
Likewise many on this forum don't have a Christian background.
:2c:

How I see it is "the church" is Babylon, and we are told to come out of her.  It doesn't mean God doesn't use her for His good, but that its there to provide the backdrop or blackdrop on which we can compare the white true ecclesia.  Just as God told Israel to fashion the cherubim and put them into the HOH, (even after He said make no graven image of ANYTHING), which they ended up worshipping.  He has placed or allowed the babyonish church to grow, to give the contrast between right and wrong worship.  For the overcomers to come out of her, otherwise what would they overcome?  Its there, with its horrible doctrine of ET, oppressive taxation, guilt tripping, etc. to drive the overcomers to leave and search for the pure.

btw I'm not saying that these people in the church structure are consciously doing these things.  They think they are doing whats right, just as Aaron thought building that calf was right, or the Israelites thought worshipping Moloch and Chiun was right, after all God had told them to build it and place it into the center of their worship.  I loved my church, and still love those caught in it.  my old pastor is a wonderful man with a heart for God.  They are just trapped, they are deceived and they don't know it, because they follow the traditions of men (creation) instead of the Spirit (creator).  they worship a god made in mans image.

Molly you said you worry about the children because they need a community, and I completely agree, but we are to provide that community, true community, where the children learn true religion (taking care of widows and orphans), not going to church on sunday, getting your emotional fix, checking off the box, then going about your regular life until you repeat next sunday.  Its really hard, I want my daughter to love God, to have a relationship.  I see the benefit of sunday school, sometimes I wonder if we should have her go to that.  But then I don't want them polluting her mind with false doctrines.  I don't want her to have to go through the anguish I did for my entire life not being able to really trust God because how could He create people He knew would spend eternity burning.  That just forces me to do my job, it puts more burden on me to raise her in the path of righteousness, and not let it fall to some guy thats been trained "properly" to lead.  We are priests, I am the priest of my household, with Christ as my high priest. 

Quote from: RHMMolly you said you worry about the children because they need a community, and I completely agree, but we are to provide that community, true community, where the children learn true religion (taking care of widows and orphans.

But we don't.  Nobody does except the established churches.  The State wants to step in and take that role and this is what will happen should the churches fail.  Then we will be hostage to the State, but that's another story.

I wish there were some easy answer.  But, I think we're stuck with what we've got, except in rare cases here and there throughout the country.  A city in California just outlawed home based churches--wow.

The churches, by the way, are already hostage to the State by virtue of their tax exempt status.  The State now can threatened to put them in jail or remove their status should they preach something the State does not like.

Quote from: wwAgain the OP was about how paganism crept in. Not if the church totally died.

Oh.

I understood the OP to be asking how do you explain all these failed churches [teaching false teachings] in light of the scripture where Jesus says, essentially, his church will never fail.

My answer is--he's talking about the true church, the saints.

Quote from: wwWhat's a true believer? What's a Christian?
My view is that on forums like CARM there isn't a single Christian besides perhaps the people that got banned there....

lol

It's not really our place to try and judge that.  God knows his people.

But, generally speaking, you will know them by their fruit.

Quote from: Molly on October 11, 2011, 03:29:39 PM

Quote from: RHMMolly you said you worry about the children because they need a community, and I completely agree, but we are to provide that community, true community, where the children learn true religion (taking care of widows and orphans.

But we don't.  Nobody does except the established churches.  The State wants to step in and take that role and this is what will happen should the churches fail.  Then we will be hostage to the State, but that's another story.

I wish there were some easy answer.  But, I think we're stuck with what we've got, except in rare cases here and there throughout the country.  A city in California just outlawed home based churches--wow.

The churches, by the way, are already hostage to the State by virtue of their tax exempt status.  The State now can threatened to put them in jail or remove their status should they preach something the State does not like.

So we should go back to egypt because we had it better there?  We are brought into the wilderness for a reason, to learn to trust God, not in men and their system.  I am providing for my daughters spiritual needs right now, as best as I know how.  Its much better I'd say than to have her go learn a song, and a watered down bible verse, and play for an hour, and think thats what a God wants of us.  Its the same thing as we get older, trust the system it works.  Really? christians are almost no different than the rest of the nation.  Same divorce rates, same drug abuse rates, same porn rates.  No fruit (or at least little). 

You say the churches are held hostage by the state, um they don't have to take a tax exempt status.  And they are really just a part of the system.  The conservative evangelical white churches promote republicans, the black and minority and liberal churches promote democrats.  They keep propagating the system, as if there's really any difference between the two parties.  Oh yes they're held down by the state, only so far as they allow it to happen.  They are promoting the state through their tax exempt status.  Saying come donate your tax deductible contributions to us.  If the church wanted to be free from the state they would stop their tax exempt status and not worry about losing it, then they could preach whatever they want.  They would preach the kingdom of heaven instead of "my manmade kingdom" with my lavish pavillions on every street corner, costing millions of dollars, to sit there unused the majority of the time, built off the hard work of illegal tithes that are coerced through manipulative means (how do you expect God to bless you if you don't tithe?).  Our old church built a multimillion dollar building.  Its beautiful, it feels great when you go there, God is really at work here I thought.  Providing a really nice place for upper middle class folks to come and feel good about themselves once a week.  Instead those millions could have gone to feeding the poor, not to mention their multi million dollar budget each year.

Do good things happen in the church?  YEs absolutely, but what a waste compared to all the good that could come from that money. 

Our church even understood that going to church isn't where real change takes place.  The small group movement has been spreading through American evangelical churches for the past 10-15 years.  But what they don't get is the superfluous nature of the church building at that point.  The ecclesia is when two or more are gathered in His name.  So why waste another precious day/hours going to the building, when your real church is your small group.  This is what I've been saying to my friends for the past year (even before I came out of the church).  We all only have so much time.  IF you go to sunday morning at the church, and thursday (whatever night) night at the house ecclesia, how do you have time to go into the community and actually minister to the poor (financially and spiritually)?  Instead we need to cut out the middle man, and spend those precious hours actually being the body of Christ.

Then  we think, but how will people get into those small groups without the church to go to first?  I see it kind of like the loss of charity in the US.  Prior to taxation and welfare being forced onto the US, the church did charity, people did charity.  They took care of others.  Once the state steps in it takes off the burden from us to do our duty.  The church is no different than the state.  It takes our duty off to be Christ to the world.  Want to minister to someone?  Invite him to church, so that someone who's qualified can minister to them.  Then they can start going to that church and giving their money so they can hire more "qualified" ministers.  WE are supposed to be that minister.  And just because its not happening doesn't meant that we should go back to bondage because at least the system is there to meet those needs.  The reason poverty keeps risisng is because the state is unable to meet the needs of the people it attempts to help.  The reason spiritual poverty is rising is because the church/state is unable to meet the needs of the people it is trying to help. 

The central problem is centralization.  The more centralized the state or church becomes, the less efficient and effective it becomes at meeting the needs of the people it is trying to meet.  We need to be putting churches and government out of business.  Are we doing it yet?  NO, but that still doesn't mean we should default to a corrupt system because thats all we have.  Thats why we get Bush/clinton/bush/obama/perry/romney/cain as if theres any difference.  Its the same reason we get more ET, more hurt more divorce, more spiritual poverty, because we want to go back to comfort.  We need to press forward to the promised land, its hard, believe me I know, almost all our friends have abandoned us because we don't go to their Circus church anymore.  there will never be any real change until we stop the two party system of politics, and there will never be any real change until we stop the church system.

Quote from: Molly on October 11, 2011, 03:29:39 PM

Quote from: wwAgain the OP was about how paganism crept in. Not if the church totally died.

Oh.

I understood the OP to be asking how do you explain all these failed churches [teaching false teachings] in light of the scripture where Jesus says, essentially, his church will never fail.

My answer is--he's talking about the true church, the saints.

If the Bible states the church never dies then obviously there always has been at least one saint.
Otherwise it's in theoretically possible that their wasn't a single believer 'till say the 1800 when people retranslated the Bible and rediscoverred UR.

Quote

Quote from: wwWhat's a true believer? What's a Christian?
My view is that on forums like CARM there isn't a single Christian besides perhaps the people that got banned there....

lol

It's not really our place to try and judge that.  God knows his people.

But, generally speaking, you will know them by their fruit.

But still that's what the OP is asking us to do. It isn't possible to claim satan isn't the same person as Jesus without making some sort of judgement.
Sure we can only completely and correctly judge if we understand everything.
I'm not one of that group. But some things are so extremly obvious and don't require absolute knowledge. I'm not a car mechanic but my knowledge of cars is enough to understand that my car isn't in perfect shape if the wheels fall off.
If being a Christian means absolute perfection then nobody is. But how far can Christian move away from the correct teaching and becomes a pagan?
Are muslims Christians too because they for example believe in Abraham, Moses and Jesus?
I can't give you the border between Christian and pagan but for me ET is way past that border. It's rotten fruit.
About ED for example I'm far less sure.

BTW knowing everything about Christianity doesn't make you one either. It needs to be applied knowledge :winkgrin:

I agree with what you say, RHM.

I hope you can find a solution to it.

Maybe connect with others in your area and create your own Sunday school and community outreach?

I don't know.  It sounds like you might have a calling.  :icon_flower:

I wish I could find the church I went to as a child, but it doesn't exist anymore, at least not here.

Quote from: wwBTW knowing everything about Christianity doesn't make you one either. It needs to be applied knowledge

We don't need any specific doctrine or action to be considered a true believer.  All we need is a relationship with Christ, and everything else will take care of itself.

    Daniel prophesied that the saints'churches' were overcome. Father allowed this that no flesh could boast. Fleshly churches are nothing but a contentious woman

    the fall is so severe He calls His out of her...the wisdom that comes from above is the hearing of His voice..and heeding the call of the Holy spirit...

    'the wise will understand' because they hear the Holy spirit[wisdom from above] and aren't heeding the hired man's call....remember He sent His

  people to Babylon for discipline for Not heeding Him.

    The cage of unclean birds[is doctrines of demonic error] after I come out,one morning the Lord come to 'inspect' me.  and told me....

   'that I had dragon breath"   the reason I had dragon breath was because I had been dining on 'dragonhead/mind/of satan..Psalms 74;14  It was you that

   crushed the heads of Leviathan and give them as food to the creatures of the desert.


       Dragonmeatt denies the salvation  of all mankind through Christ's sacrifice and preaches condemnation to mankind...it is a work of satan to be anti-

      christ/atonement/salvation of mankind...  and blaspheme, eternal burning of God's children..


    the falling away occurred...and the woman failed the test of jealousy....and can NOT BEAR the children of God...she will put them to death spiritually

  or smother the breath of life out of them.  Our mother is Jerusalem Above...she can bear all the children of God.   Can a nation be born in a day?



      The gates[mouth] of hell, shall not prevail against it...the condemnation preached of hell for the greater masses of mankind..with eternal torment..as their lot

    preached by the whore will NOT prevail..because they are lying demonic doctrines....dragonsbreath!!!!!     

     Now, there is a sign in Heaven...a woman with twelve stars above her head and the moon under her feet....giving birth to a male child....there is

   a DRAGON READY TO DEVOUR THAT CHILD....TAKE HEED,CHILDREN OF GOD!!!!!!!!!Anything less than all men are saved and receive free gift of eternal

  life through Christ..is dragonbreath!!!   No watering it down with..well some may be in LOF for period of time...to appease that dragon.........


     Now, this is what the Lord desires your breath to smell like......the frragrance of your breath like apples;and your mouth like the best wine

    apples speak of sonship...of which all mankind are the sons of God,brothers of Christ......the apple of Father's eye.


       I have 'spit' the dragon meat out of my mouth...and gladly drink the BEST WINE HE SAVED FOR LAST.......He come to save the world.........

     and He has done just that.

     Now, the dragon is angry at the woman.....and goes off to make war against the rest of her offspring....those who obey and hold to the testimony of Jesus.



       

Sheila waits until the bases are loaded and then....hits it out of the park.

Dragon's breath.  lol  That's great. :laughing7:

Quote from: Molly on October 11, 2011, 04:34:43 PM
I agree with what you say, RHM.

I hope you can find a solution to it.

Maybe connect with others in your area and create your own Sunday school and community outreach?

I don't know.  It sounds like you might have a calling.  :icon_flower:

I wish I could find the church I went to as a child, but it doesn't exist anymore, at least not here.

I think you're right, we're doing it now, we just don't have anyone else in our fellowship yet.  I've felt called to lead a home fellowship since I went to a small groups leadership conference at Willow Creek Church about 5 years ago.  (Judge Reinhold was one of the speakers there btw)  Its hard because going to church is so ingrained in peoples minds.

Quote from: Molly on October 11, 2011, 04:39:49 PM

Quote from: wwBTW knowing everything about Christianity doesn't make you one either. It needs to be applied knowledge

We don't need any specific doctrine or action to be considered a true believer.  All we need is a relationship with Christ, and everything else will take care of itself.

Isn't that applying?

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 11, 2011, 05:23:17 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 11, 2011, 04:39:49 PM

Quote from: wwBTW knowing everything about Christianity doesn't make you one either. It needs to be applied knowledge

We don't need any specific doctrine or action to be considered a true believer.  All we need is a relationship with Christ, and everything else will take care of itself.

Isn't that applying?

Maybe it is.  Would you ever say a prayer and ask him to come into relationship with you?  :gangel:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 11, 2011, 02:53:28 PM

What's a true believer? What's a Christian?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  Rm. 10:13

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.  Rm. 10:9,10

The Eastern orthodox  position is that they have not decided on UR, but open to debate. They have faith that Jesus will save all.

So in their case Ur was never abandoned I think.

Quote from: jabcat on October 11, 2011, 09:02:46 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 11, 2011, 02:53:28 PM

What's a true believer? What's a Christian?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  Rm. 10:13

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.  Rm. 10:9,10

Beeeeep wrong answer  :winkgrin:

I'll play along with you.
Define Jesus/Lord. Son of God isn't a relevant answer in this case.  :high5:
Just confess anything? Or are there certain criterea.

My point/thought is that the verses you quoted conflict with another verse if the right defenitions aren't used.

Quote from: thinktank on October 11, 2011, 11:44:40 PM
The Eastern orthodox  position is that they have not decided on UR, but open to debate. They have faith that Jesus will save all.

So in their case Ur was never abandoned I think.

Could be true I think. Christianity outside the Roman empire evolved based on debate instead of oppression.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 12, 2011, 08:38:04 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 11, 2011, 09:02:46 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 11, 2011, 02:53:28 PM

What's a true believer? What's a Christian?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  Rm. 10:13

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.  Rm. 10:9,10

Beeeeep wrong answer  :winkgrin:

I'll play along with you.
Define Jesus/Lord. Son of God isn't a relevant answer in this case.  :high5:
Just confess anything? Or are there certain criterea.

My point/thought is that the verses you quoted conflict with another verse if the right defenitions aren't used.

Not sure what you're gettin' at, old buddy,  :bigGrin:  but I'm simply addressing the basics of salvation, trying to specifically answer your question, "what's a Christian, a true believer".  As I understand, one can be a member at CARM, First Baptist, or Tentmaker and have 99 doctrines in error, but salvation is provided by being drawn by the Spirit to the Father, and then being given faith to believe on the Son Jesus as one's Savior.   If being a Christian is about "applying knowledge", then IMO, that's works, and we're not saved by works.  Rightly dividing the scrips that seem to "conflict", Jesus was talking pre-cross about the kingdom to the Jews, and then Paul told us post-cross how to be saved. 

Increasing knowledge, holy living/sanctification, understanding/revelation about precepts such as UR and how to overcome sin, may all come later -  "...grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 3:18.    We don't start off there, we start out as babes - for many, "just" receiving enough to be saved.  Then we mature from there.   I'll go so far as to say, many won't mature past things like ET belief, or many sins in their life, and will have their works burned in the day of the Lord, so the spirit will be saved. 

On topic, if the gates of hell prevail against those called, saved, and sealed and kept by the Holy Spirit, then hell is overcoming God Himself.  But since He's in control of that, initiates it and completes it (Hebrews 12:2) that's not going to happen.   :boyheart:

Quote from: jabcat on October 12, 2011, 11:16:26 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 12, 2011, 08:38:04 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 11, 2011, 09:02:46 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 11, 2011, 02:53:28 PM

What's a true believer? What's a Christian?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  Rm. 10:13

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.  Rm. 10:9,10

Beeeeep wrong answer  :winkgrin:

I'll play along with you.
Define Jesus/Lord. Son of God isn't a relevant answer in this case.  :high5:
Just confess anything? Or are there certain criterea.

My point/thought is that the verses you quoted conflict with another verse if the right defenitions aren't used.

Not sure what you're gettin' at, old buddy, 

Who is "Lord" in your verse:
a] Jesus who fails to accomplish His main task "salvation of all". Jesus who's main attribute is justice.
b] Jesus who succeeds His main task. Jesus who's main attribute is love.


Are the people who believe option "b" really know Jesus? Do those people really confess to Jesus or some pagan concept. Are they among the people from this verse:

Matthew 7:23-24
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Quote from: wwWho is "Lord" in your verse:
a] Jesus who fails to accomplish His main task "salvation of all". Jesus who's main attribute is justice.
b] Jesus who succeeds His main task. Jesus who's main attribute is love.

c) Jesus who is my best friend and Savior.


and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.  [Mat 18:3]

 :thumbdown:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 12, 2011, 02:00:54 PM
:thumbdown:

Does this mean I am cast into the outer darkness of whitewings forever? :mshock:

Ok.  Try this.

d) All that matters is our personal relationship with Jesus.  He is Lord of our lives.


Psalm 62:8 Trust in Him at all times O people; pour out your hearts to Him, for God is our refuge.

It means you use words that I asked the defenition of.

It's great Jesus is your best friend. But which one is it? Jesus-a or Jesus-b?
Does Jesus-a exist? If not, can He be your friend?

Is Jesus-a an idol? A tickling of the ears? A false image?

Justice is one of his attributes.  It's not who he is.

To be fair, I think people read about a person and think they know him.

They want to know him.

But, if you were a journalist, and had the opportunity to interview someone instead of just reading about him, what would you do?

Wouldn't you take the opportunity to interview him?  Why?  Because first hand experience is so much better?

You asked:  define Jesus/Lord.

You asked:  Jesus who does this?  Or Jesus who does that.

I answered:  Jesus who is Lord of my life.

I answered:  Ask him yourself, up close and personal.


I just learned  the word "firstborn" in the phrase, 'church of the firstborn', is plural.

I like what Molly was trying to bring out with the OP here.  The question, and conversation seems to be focused on the church that "we" observe rather than what this church Jesus was referring to really is.  I think the "filtering" of falseness came in as a result of others who also lost sight of what Christ's church was really based on. 

The taking care of widows and orphans is not the foundation of the church, it's merely the manifestation of it.  It's what we do "as a result" of God's transformation within us.  But what is the church actually "built" on?  "Upon this rock . . ."  What was the rock?  Many will say it's "Christ", HE is our rock . . .which I wouldn't argue but Jesus didn't say "upon ME . . ."  He was directing his attention to something outside of that.  What just transpired that Jesus was reacting to when he said this?  What's the context about?

For me, the centerpiece of this passage is pertaining to the fact that God himself, for the first time, had revealed to Peter DIRECTLY who Jesus was.  "That's" the rock and Jesus uses as the foundation of the church.  The foundation is "direct communication with the Father".  When God plants truth in us personally . . . NOTHING can shake it.  The gates (speaking of "authority) of hell (speaking of destructive forces in others and in us) can not prevail against it . . .

A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument.   

How did all the junk filter in the church then?  People stopped having that direct communication with God . .which is "spriit-to-spirit" and they turned to their own reasoning.  Men influencing men to teach what "they" wanted to be taught, to taint whatever needed to be tainted so long as it aligned with their controlling agendas. 

Then our generation comes along and continues to swallow the crooked things and call them straight . . .because that's what we've been taught to teach.

But God is reconnecting with the hearts of men . . .the message is changing and people are beginning to take notice.  God is revealing the nature of Jesus directly in the hearts of men once again, and the message is returning to it's original pure state and as a result, captives are once again being set free, the blind are finally beginning to see the truth, the deaf are finally beginning to hear His sound . . .the lame can finally walk in his light rather than in their perspective of what his light is.  This is all in preparation not so that we can continue being where we are, but it prepare us all for what is yet to come.

Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. [Hos 1:9]

"Loammi" = Not a people


"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'[Hos 1:10]


10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

11And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.  [Isa 11]



19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. [Eze 37]

Some obvious misconceptions need to be eliminated about the matter of the Ekklesia. First, when Christ said He would build His body, He was not referring to a material structure such as a cathedral, a basilica, or a temple of wood and stone.  Secondly, another erroneous notion (very common today) is that Christ was going to build an organization of men on this earth — an organization ruled by appointed men while He remained in heaven. The Ekklesia Christ was going to build was not to be an organization of men. One point in particular prevents Christ's Ekklesia from being an organization of men no matter how holy and righteous the men may appear to be. With His Ekklesia, Christ insisted that "the gates of hell [hades/the grave] shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). (It is important to know Hades translated sometimes as hell really means grave in modern English). All persons who ever lived in Christ over the centuries (whether they were early apostles, or later  ministers and laymen) have had hades prevail over them! All have gone to their graves!

True, hades will not triumph over them in the end, but hades is certainly in exultation over them now. They must all await the resurrection to occur at Christ's second advent for their victory over hades to be complete. The church cannot be an organization of men because Hades does presently prevail over men and will continue to triumph until the resurrection. The problem with many Ministers and Priests today is that they continue to teach nonsense that the "church" is located somewhere on earth, is governed by men and that the "church organization" will never see death. That is not what Christ meant.  This concept would be similar to the government of Aaronic priests who ruled ancient Israel under the Old Covenant. Aaron, the brother of Moses, was given authority to be a human mediator (along with his sons) between Israel and God. When Aaron died, he went to hades (the grave). As a result he had to hand his authority down to the next generation of priests. This transfer of authority carried on for generations. But the writer of Hebrews reckoned this type of religious government as being very inferior to what Christ established.

"They truly were many priests, because they were not suffered [allowed] to continue by reason of death."       (Hebrews 7:23)

Aaron and his human descendants had roles of "changeable authority"  predominating in their ministries. This resulted in a profound deficiency being associated with it. This is because Aaron and his sons had hades prevail over them. And not only that, but leaders of every Christian denomination on earth have handed their "authority" on to an earthly son (or to a board of men). They all die too. This trend is seen all the time and in no way differs from what happened with the Aaronic priesthood of the Old Covenant. All have a changeable authority.  The Book of Hebrews points out that Christs unchangeable priesthood is far superior in the Christian Ekklesia. But this man [Jesus Christ], because he continues ever, has an unchangeable priesthood" (Hebrews 7:24).  The margin says,  απαραβατον ἱερωσυνην,   a priesthood that passeth not away from him.

Christ's Ekklesia is far different because He does not have to hand His authority down from one man to another. His authority is "unchangeable," permanent and invested in One individual who "continues ever" (Hebrews 7:24). This is why the gates of hades will never prevail against Christ's Ekklesia. It is not because hades does not have power over all human members of the Ekklesia, because it does! But hades has no power over Christ anymore! This is why Christ's Ekklesia is very different from the Old Covenant "church" which depended upon Aaron and his sons handing down their authority to other humans from generation to generation. Christ is different! He is like Melchizedek.  Christ's Ekklesia is not a church building made of stone and wood. It is also not an organization of men with some type of "authority" handed down from father to son (or from leaders to leaders). The Ekklesia of Christ has only one authority and that jurisdiction rests solely in Christ! The Ekklesia is even reckoned as His Body and He is the Head. He gives us the privilege to represent some of its constituents through His grace. "We are members of his body, of His flesh, and of His bones" (Ephesians 5:30). The Ekklesia, however, is His Body; it is not ours! And it is Christ who mastered hades, not ourselves. He is the Head of the Body (Colossians 1:18; 2:19). Christ represents the part that controls the whole. Christ is the only part of the Body that never varies. He always remains constant and perfect. All of us who represent His present Body come and go, but the head always stays constant. (Taken from ELM)


Paul

Quote from: PaulAll persons who ever lived in Christ over the centuries (whether they were early apostles, or later  ministers and laymen) have had hades prevail over them! All have gone to their graves!

Just to say I disagree with this, as I have on so many other threads.  Christ has instituted a new priesthood [Melchizedek] based on an indestructible life, as you said, but that is implemented and working now.  We have already received eternal life.  That's the whole point!  That's the new covenant.  The old one is obsolete and fading away.



9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

--2 Peter 2




We Christians are the fulfillment of this prophecy:

"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'[Hos 1:10]

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.



23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. [Rom 9]

I have questions about the timings of resurrections, judgments, and where people are exactly in the meantime.  But even though I don't have all the answers to those questions and how it all fits together, I guess it comes down to, do I believe my own questions, doubts, and reasonings?  Or do I believe Jesus?

  "..upon this bedrock I will build My group of Called Ones, and the gates of the grave won't overpower it."  Mt. 16:18, The Christian Bible (1991)

"..and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"  John 11:26  ESV

   Jesus answered them,'Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days"

   the temple Jesus raises is the fallenspiritual body of all dead in Adam...He raises them to eternal

    life.

   When God called His sons out of Egypt through Moses,Pharoah was told it was to journey three

days   in the wilderness to offer a sacrifice to God.   Free from sin works for three days...

  rest in the grave from the hard labour laid on man by the prince of this world.


    Now, Jesus tasted 'death' for every man, so they need not lay in a grave for three days.

   they need but look upon He that was lifted up in the wilderness[look up! Your deliverance

   draws nigh,] Really, when I see Him lifted up on that torture stake,I hear this...

    Father forgive them,they know not what they do.....Now, God has testified....

   that He would not suffer His Holy One to see corruption...which is also the same

  as the gates of hell not prevailing against Him...and what mankind needs to realize is just this...

  this speaks of you..for you are His body He raises up and does not allow to see corruption.

  Your new creature in every man and woman..will not see corruption,nor hell prevail

  against you. It is the corrupt image[sin in flesh] that the gates of hell prevail over/return to dust


   indeed the sacrifice pleasing unto God was made in the wilderness,the true manna from heaven

  fed them, the rock that brought forth living water.


     WHO IS THIS? THAT APPEARS LIKE THE DAWN,FAIR AS THE MOON,BRIGHT AS THE SUN

     MAJESTIC AS THE STARS IN PROCESSION........


     fOR lOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH,IT'S JEALOUSY AS UNYEILDING AS THE GRAVE

     IT BURNS LIKE BLAZING FIRE,LIKE A MIGHTY FLAME.MANY WATERS CANNOT QUENCH

   LOVE[DRAGONFLOODS TRYING TO PREVAIL AS GATES OF HELL]

    RIVERS CANNOT WASH IT AWAY[DOCTRINES OF CONDEMNATION/DEATH

     SPEWED OUT OF DRAGONS MOUTH]

Quote from: sheila on October 13, 2011, 07:41:48 AM
Now, Jesus tasted 'death' for every man, so they need not lay in a grave for three days.

The wages of sin is death. Was Jesus a sinner?  :dontknow:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2011, 08:44:57 AM

Quote from: sheila on October 13, 2011, 07:41:48 AM
Now, Jesus tasted 'death' for every man, so they need not lay in a grave for three days.

The wages of sin is death. Was Jesus a sinner?  :dontknow:

Sorry, not sheila.  sheila can go next   :laughing7:


He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him  Is. 53:5


He committed no sin,  and no deceit was found in his mouth."   When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.  He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.  I Peter 2:21-26

I know those verses James. It just puts a totally different light on "the wages of sin is death".
The wage is still death but not necessarily for the one who commited the sin.
Of course a similar system was very frequently used in OT. The wages of sin is the death of a sheep/goat

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2011, 10:16:49 AM
I know those verses James. It just puts a totally different light on "the wages of sin is death".
The wage is still death but not necessarily for the one who commited the sin.
Of course a similar system was very frequently used in OT. The wages of sin is the death of a sheep/goat

Exactly.

This is an interesting article.



In the book of Leviticus we read of an intriguing ceremony which was performed every year on the Day of Atonement, or Yom Kippur, in ancient Israel. God commanded the people of Israel, "From the Israelite community he [the high priest] is to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. . . Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. He is to CAST LOTS for the two goats -- one lot for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat. Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the LORD and sacrifice it for a sin offering. But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat . . .


"He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull's blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. In this way he will MAKE ATONEMENT for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. . . .


"When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Ten of Meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites -- all their sins -- and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a SOLITARY PLACE; and the man shall release it in the desert" (Lev.16:5-22).


What is this mysterious "scapegoat" that carries the sins of all the people into the desert? What does this strange ceremony symbolize and foretell?


All commentators are agreed that the first goat, which is sacrificed for a sin offering, whose blood is sprinkled over the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting and the altar, represents Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, who was slain for the sins of the world. John the Baptist looked upon Jesus, and declared to his disciples, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29). The apostle Paul wrote of Christ, our High Priest, "Such a high priest meets our need -- one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE FOR ALL when he offered himself" (Heb.7:26-27).


Paul explained further, "When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place ONCE FOR ALL BY HIS OWN BLOOD, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb.9:11-12).


As Paul wrote, "For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place ever year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared ONCE FOR ALL at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, NOT TO BEAR SIN, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him" (Heb.9:24-28).


Notice! Jesus gave His life for our sins ONCE and for all time. His sacrifice COMPLETELY paid the penalty of our sins. This awesome event is portrayed by the first of the two goats, the one whose lot fell "to the LORD," the goat that was sacrificed by the high priest as a SIN offering for the people! As Paul explains to the Corinthians, "God made him who had no sin to BE SIN for us, so that in HIM we might become the righteousness of God" (II Cor.5:21).


Therefore, this first goat which was offered on the Day of Atonement every year, pictured to perfection the unique sacrifice of Jesus Christ who laid down His life for our sins, as our "sin offering." Jesus is also the "Passover Lamb" who was slain for us, that our sins might be covered by His blood, and we might be forgiven, and have peace and reconciliation with God. "For Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed" (I Cor.5:7).


Why then, in the ancient yearly ceremony on the Day of Atonement, was there the unique feature of a SECOND GOAT -- one not "for the LORD," but for "Azazel"? The sacrifice of Jesus Christ PERFECTLY satisfied the requirement and symbolism of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There would have been no need whatsoever for a second, additional goat to also represent Christ in His capacity as our "sin bearer." The first goat, who was SLAIN for our sins, fulfills this symbolism PERFECTLY! What, then, does this second goat really represent?


Let's understand!


The "Azazel" Goat


Peake's Commentary on the Bible asserts, "Having thus isolated the sin of the people from all holy things, Aaron now proceeds to get rid of their sin altogether. He puts both hands on the head of the live goat, recites over it all the sins of the people of Israel and thus transfers their sins to the goat. The goat is then sent away and is lost in the wilderness. There was a man waiting in order to follow the goat and see that it was successfully lost. In the time of the Second Temple this man was usually a non-Israelite" (p.248).


This Commentary continues:


"According to Hebrew tradition, as preserved in the Mishnah,

Yoma vi, 8, the goat was driven to a rocky terrace twelve miles

east of Jerusalem, identified as the modern Bet Hudedun, and

was driven over these jagged rocks to perish over this precipice

. . . G. R. Driver, 'Three Technical Terms in the Pentateuch,' . . .

shows that the 11th century Jewish commentator Rashi was right

when he understood AZAZEL to refer to the place to which the

goat was sent. It means, 'jagged rocks, precipice,' and only later

did the word come to refer to a desert demon . . . the Rabbis were

very clear that the goat was in no sense a gift to Azazel. Rabbi

Eliezer declared that the goat was not a gift to Semjaza (Sammael),

the chief of the Fallen Angels, nor a bribe to him not to make their

offerings void or falsely to accuse Israel. It was not a sacrifice

since it was not slaughtered. It was SENT AWAY BY GOD'S

COMMAND. God chooses the goat that is sent away to Azazel.

Plainly and simply God himself is providing a means of getting

rid of Israel's sin" (p.248-249).


Notice carefully! This second goat was NOT A SACRIFICE! Therefore, it could NOT picture Jesus Christ, who as a sacrifice paid the penalty for all our sins. Secondly, this second goat was "sent away" to the desert by the COMMAND of GOD! Christ was never sent away to the desert, carrying our sins to the remote wilderness. This pictures some other altogether different event!


Notice once more: This second goat is chosen "by lot," as is the first goat. That is, God Himself choses which goat will represent Christ as our Saviour and Redeemer, and which goat will represent this other symbolism -- the "Azazel."


The very name "Azazel" itself is very significant. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible points out that this term literally means "GOAT OF DEPARTURE." It comes from two roots: aze, "a she goat (as strong)," and azal, aw-zal -- "a primitive root, to GO AWAY, hence to DISAPPEAR, fail, gad about, go to and fro, BE GONE, SPENT."

http://www.triumphpro.com/azazel-goat.htm




For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;

As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

--Psa 103




"AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." [Heb 10:17]

Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2011, 12:29:33 PMWhy then, in the ancient yearly ceremony on the Day of Atonement, was there the unique feature of a SECOND GOAT -- one not "for the LORD," but for "Azazel"? The sacrifice of Jesus Christ PERFECTLY satisfied the requirement and symbolism of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There would have been no need whatsoever for a second, additional goat to also represent Christ in His capacity as our "sin bearer." The first goat, who was SLAIN for our sins, fulfills this symbolism PERFECTLY! What, then, does this second goat really represent?
..........
Notice carefully! This second goat was NOT A SACRIFICE! Therefore, it could NOT picture Jesus Christ, who as a sacrifice paid the penalty for all our sins. Secondly, this second goat was "sent away" to the desert by the COMMAND of GOD! Christ was never sent away to the desert, carrying our sins to the remote wilderness. This pictures some other altogether different event!

I disagree with that part. It would break the pattern. Jesus was also the second goat that carried away the sins.

QuoteHe shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task.

The man is the HS that let Jesus away after baptism.

QuoteThe goat will carry on itself all their sins to a SOLITARY PLACE; and the man shall release it in the desert" (Lev.16:5-22). 

Jesus went to a solitary place (the wilderness) where He fasted for 40 days.

QuoteNotice carefully! This second goat was NOT A SACRIFICE! Therefore, it could NOT picture Jesus Christ, who as a sacrifice paid the penalty for all our sins.

Imo that's just a false assumption that Jesus' 1st-goat-sacrifice was enough. Lemme explain that a bit.
The ritual in Leviticus had two stages. When one part was not completed or not performed correctly the attonement would have failed. That wasn't because one of the goats wasn't good enough but simply because God commanded a 2 step ritual.
Same for Jesus. He had to follow the two steps also. So it has nothing to do with perfection but with rules. Otherwise I can just as well claim His death on the cross was a waste of time because the goat sacrifice was so perfect He basicly accompliced His work in the few seconds John the Baptist held Him under water.
Jesus was perfect and equally important He perfectly followed the laws/rituals.

:2c:

Good stuff, ww.

Jesus went into the desert right after his baptism.

There he conquered Satan, regarding his life on the earth in the flesh.

It is a proof of his purity and also of his dominion over Satan [unlike Adam who lost the battle with Satan].

This is the high priest purifying himself first.

The Israelites were also taken into the desert as soon as they were released from captivity by God.

One could argue, some are still there.

Two brothers:  One conquers by Grace, One falls by the Law.

It is the Law which convicts us of sin and sets the penalty.

How does Jesus in the desert resemble the scapegoat?

How do the Israelites released from captivity and taken into the desert resemble the scapegoat?

God not only pays the wages for us, he removes sin from us completely!

He not only forgives our sins, he forgets them!

Those who entered the promised land are the second circumcision.

QuoteThe very name "Azazel" itself is very significant. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible points out that this term literally means "GOAT OF DEPARTURE." It comes from two roots: aze, "a she goat (as strong)," and azal, aw-zal -- "a primitive root, to GO AWAY, hence to DISAPPEAR, fail, gad about, go to and fro, BE GONE, SPENT."

Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2011, 02:30:03 PM
The Israelites were also taken into the desert as soon as they were released from captivity by God.

That's a pattern I never really figured out.
They were in the desert for 40 years. Jesus for 40 days. That's simple.
But they were only that long in the desert because they didn't obey. Their journey could have ended at mt. Sinai. I think there was "pentecost event" at that mountain.  (the cloud)

That was 3 months after they left Egypt. What happend to Jesus after 3 days? Or should the failure of the Isrealites no be part of the pattern.
Could be; but "3" is a to significant number to just ignore....

Thought/question.

Did satan tempt Jesus on His 3rd day in the wilderness?
If so is there a link bewteen satan tempting and Moses getting the 10 commandments???????

Yes a pentecost event but it came only to/through Moses, the shadow of the Melchizedek priesthood.

The rest of the Israelites were not even to touch the mountain or they would die.

But Moses talked with God face to face.

Aaron and his priesthood had to do hours of daily ritural to clense themselves and then only the high priest could go into the holy of holies and only once a year.

But Moses stood in his dirty sandals before God  and talked with Him as one talks to a friend.




18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
[Heb 12]

 and the Holy spirit led Jesus into the desert to be tempted/tried of satan.[goat-shaped demons in the wilderness]. Leviticuas 17;7

  Eating blood forbidden.....Any Israelite who sacrifices an ox,a lamb or a goat,in the camp,or outside of it,INSTEAD OF BRINGING IT TO THE ENTRANCE OF THE TENT

   OF MEETING;TO PRESENT IT AS AN OFFERING TO THE LORD IN FRONT OF THE TABERNACLE OF THE LORD-THAT MAN SHALL BE CONSIDERED GUILTY OF BLOODSHED

  HE HAS SHED BLOOD AND MUST BE CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE....v 7 THEY MUST NO LONGER OFFER ANY OF THEIR SACRIFICES TO THE GOAT IDOLS...

   TO WHOM THEY PROSTITUTE THEMSELVES.

   message unto the gentiles....Acts 15;20...instead we should write to them,telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols,from sexual immorality,from the meat

  of strangled animals..AND FROM BLOOD

   and Satan entered in among them. The Lord asked satan 'from where have you come?" and he replied from going to and fro in the earth...

    Goats signify a spirit that leads.  a goat/or leader is not unclean of itself. But a spirit that leads into transgression is to perish in the wilderness[a wicked generation]

Satan offers Jesus the things of flesh and blood.

The kingdoms of this world.

Using his power to satisfy and exalt himself--stones into bread, jumping off the pinacle.

But Jesus refuted him with the word of God.

His kingdom is not of this world.



[Even so, I am not going to repent of my parking space in front because it is a gift from God.  :happygrin:]

 Blood guiltiness of Babylon in the wilderness........all the blood of those slain come to be on her...goat-shaped demons.[strong she-goat?]..taught my people to err....

  prostitute.   Spiritual leaders of Babylon guilty of blood.....of all who have been killed on the earth

Quote from: sheila on October 13, 2011, 03:36:22 PM
Blood guiltiness of Babylon in the wilderness........all the blood of those slain come to be on her...goat-shaped demons.[strong she-goat?]..taught my people to err....

  prostitute.   Spiritual leaders of Babylon guilty of blood.....of all who have been killed on the earth

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation

[Mat 23]

 she traverse land and sea to make a proselte...and makes him two-fold the child of hell[body dead d/t sin in flesh,spiritually dead d/t doctrines of demons]

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

19Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me.

20Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob.

21And they thirsted not when he led them through the deserts: he caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them: he clave the rock also, and the waters gushed out.

22There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.

[Isaiah 48]

 Amen :HeartThrob:

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1 Cor 10

 Isaaih 54;6    The Lord will call you back[come out of her my people] as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit- a wife...

   who married young,only to be rejected,says your God.  For a breif moment I abandoned you,but with deep compassion I will bring you back.

   In a surge of anger,I hid my face from you for a moment,but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,says the Lord,your redeemer.

   TO ME THIS IS LIKE THE DAY'S OF NOAH,WHEN I SWORE THAT THE WATERS OF NOAH WOULD NEVER AGAIN COVER THE EARTH[As it was in the days of Noah

    so IT WILL BE AT THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN. For in the day's before the flood,people were eating and drinking,marrying and giving in marriage,up to the day

Noah entered the ark,and they knew nothing about what would happen,until the flood came and took them all away[dragon floods] the earth helped the woman

   SO,NOW,I HAVE SWORN..NOT TO BE ANGRY WITH YOU,.NEVER TO REBUKE YOU AGAIN

   BRING IN YOUR IDOLS TO TELL US WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN,TELL US WHAT THE FORMER THINGS WERE

      [SODOM AND GOMORRHA WILL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER STATE]

    SO THAT WE MAY CONSIDER THEM AND KNOW THEIR FINAL OUTCOME,OR DECLARE TO US THE THINGS TO COME,TELL US WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS,

    SO THAT WE MAY KNOW THAT YOU ARE GODS,DO SOMETHING,WHETHER GOOD OR BAD,SO THAT WE WILL BE DISMAYED AND FILLED WITH FEAR

   BUT YOU ARE LESS THEN NOTHING,AND YOUR WORKS ARE UTTERLY WORTHLESS,

   HE WHO CHOOSES YOU IS AN ABOMINATION...[THAT CAUSES DESOLATION]


    i HAVE STIRRED UP ONE FROM THE NORTH AND HE COMES- ONE FROM THE RISING SUN AND HE CALLS ON MY NAME

   HE TREADS ON RULERS AS IF THEY WERE MORTAR,AS IF HE WERE A POTTER TREADING CLAY


   I WAS THE FIRST TO TELL ZION,LOOK! HERE THEY ARE! I GAVE TO JERUSALEM A MESSENGER OF GOOD TIDINGS-

  I LOOK,BUT THERE IS NO-ONE AMONG THEM TO GIVE COUNSEL,NO-ONE TO GIVE ANSWERS WHEN I ASK THEM

  SEE, THEY ARE ALL FALSE, THEIR DEEDS AMOUNT TO NOTHING...THEIR IMAGES ARE BUT WIND AND CONFUSION......


   THE LORD WILL MARCH OUT LIKE A MIGHTY MAN,LIKE A WARRIOR HE WILL STIR UP HIS ZEAL;

   WITH A SHOUT HE WILL RAISE THE BATTLE CRY AND WILL TRIUMPH OVER HIS ENEMIES.

   FOR A LONG TIME I HAVE KEPT SILENT,I HAVE BEEN QUIET AND HELD MYSELF BACK

   BUT NOW...LIKE A WOMAN IN CHILDBIRTH...I CRY OUT..I GASP..I PANT,

   I WILL LAY WASTE THE MOUNTAINS AND HILLS AND DRY UP ALL THEIR VEGETATION

   I WILL...TURN RIVERS INTO ISLANDS AND DRY UP THE POOLS......

   I WILL LEAD THE BLIND BY WAYS THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN,ALONG UNFAMILIAR PATHS I WILL GUIDE THEM

   I WILL TURN THE DARKNESS INTO LIGHT BEFORE THEM...AND MAKE THE ROUGH PLACES SMOOTH

   THESE ARE THE THINGS I WILL DO,I WILL NOT FORSAKE THEM...


    BUT THOSE WHO TRUST IN IDOLS..WHO SAY TO IMAGES,'YOU ARE OUR GODS' WILL BE TURNED BACKIN UTTER SHAME....


     BUT THIS IS A PEOPLE PLUNDERED AND LOOTED ALL OF THEM TRAPPED IN PITS,OR HIDDEN AWAY IN PRISONS

    THEY HAVE BECOME PLUNDER..WITH NO-ONE TO RESCUE THEM,THEY HAVE BEEN MADE LOOT..WITH NO-ONE TO SAY...'SEND THEM BACK!'

   WHICH OF YOU WILL LISTEN TO THIS..OR PAY CLOSE ATTENTION IN TIME TO COME?.....


   BUT NOW,LISTEN...THIS IS WHAT THE LORD SAYS-HE WHO CREATED YOU,O'JACOB. HE WHO FORMED YOU,O'ISRAEL

   FEAR NOT,FOR I HAVE REDEEMED YOU,I HAVE SUMMONED YOU BY NAME,YOU ARE MINE

   WHEN YOU PASS THROUGH THE WATERS I WILL BE WITH YOU,AND WHEN YOU PASS THROUGH THE RIVERS...THEY WILL NOT SWEEP OVER YOU

  WHEN YOU WALK THROUGH THE FIRE,YOU WILL NOT BE BURNED; THE FLAMES WILL NOT SET YOU ABLAZE


   FOR I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD,THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL,YOUR SAVIOUR

3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

4Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

6Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

7They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

[Isaiah 48]




12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. [Isa 48]

You'll like this, Molly:

www.jhshumaker.info/PDF/JESUS_IN_THE_TORAH.pdf

Quote from: jabcat on October 13, 2011, 06:59:20 AM
I have questions about the timings of resurrections, judgments, and where people are exactly in the meantime.  But even though I don't have all the answers to those questions and how it all fits together, I guess it comes down to, do I believe my own questions, doubts, and reasonings?  Or do I believe Jesus?

  "..upon this bedrock I will build My group of Called Ones, and the gates of the grave won't overpower it."  Mt. 16:18, The Christian Bible (1991)

"..and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"  John 11:26  ESV

Your right, it's about the timing... believe Jesus   :2c:

Joh 6:39  "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Joh 6:40  "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."  

Joh 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.  

Joh 6:54  "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.  

Joh 11:24  Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.   

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in
Christ will rise first. 

:dontknow:
Paul

Romans 6:6;
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin

Romans 8:10;
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Galatians 2:20;
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Quote from: Pierac on October 14, 2011, 05:07:43 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 13, 2011, 06:59:20 AM
I have questions about the timings of resurrections, judgments, and where people are exactly in the meantime.  But even though I don't have all the answers to those questions and how it all fits together, I guess it comes down to, do I believe my own questions, doubts, and reasonings?  Or do I believe Jesus?

  "..upon this bedrock I will build My group of Called Ones, and the gates of the grave won't overpower it."  Mt. 16:18, The Christian Bible (1991)

"..and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"  John 11:26  ESV

Your right, it's about the timing... believe Jesus   :2c:

Joh 6:39  "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Joh 6:40  "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."  

Joh 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.  

Joh 6:54  "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.  

Joh 11:24  Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.   

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in
Christ will rise first. 

:dontknow:
Paul

I hear ya :)    I'm just not sure how "cut and dried" it is.  Sort of searching through it...

Quote from: Pierac on October 14, 2011, 05:07:43 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 13, 2011, 06:59:20 AM
I have questions about the timings of resurrections, judgments, and where people are exactly in the meantime.  But even though I don't have all the answers to those questions and how it all fits together, I guess it comes down to, do I believe my own questions, doubts, and reasonings?  Or do I believe Jesus?

  "..upon this bedrock I will build My group of Called Ones, and the gates of the grave won't overpower it."  Mt. 16:18, The Christian Bible (1991)

"..and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"  John 11:26  ESV

Your right, it's about the timing... believe Jesus   :2c:

Joh 6:39  "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Joh 6:40  "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."  

Joh 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.  

Joh 6:54  "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.  

Joh 11:24  Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.   

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in
Christ will rise first. 

:dontknow:
Paul

Raising him up on the last day refers to resurrection of the body.

After saying all this, he proceded to raise Lazarus up that very day.

He tells Martha, "I am the resurrection and the life."

So, technically, how could anyone be in Christ and be 'dead.'

Yet, he uses that word to distinguish from people who still walk on earth in their earthly bodies.

But, we don't need this earthly body to live.

Our friend Lazarus is asleep.  Let's go wake him up!

I would like some opinions on Reply #47 and 48

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 13, 2011, 07:17:58 PM

You'll like this, Molly:

www.jhshumaker.info/PDF/JESUS_IN_THE_TORAH.pdf

wow Thank you Beloved Servant.

That looks really good.

DURHAM, N.C.—Eben Alexander was your typical neurosurgeon. A firm believer of scientific reductionism, he thought that all thoughts originate from the brain. But this changed in 2008 when he encountered a case of near-death experience (NDE).

As much as it was the complete opposite of his previous views, he couldn't dismiss or avoid the case—it was none other than his own experience, and he had to face it and search for an explanation.

....

"To compare it with sitting here and talking on the phone or working on my computer, it was much, much more real, very rich, and as if I were truly being alive for the first time," Alexander said. "It was really amazing."

"My brain right now—I think it recovered pretty well—could not do anything close to what my brain was doing deep in coma," Alexander said in this year's International Association for Near-Death Studies (IANDS) conference.

"How does a dying brain end up getting far, far more powerful and able to handle these tremendous loads of information instantaneously and put it altogether?"

"For me the problem was how to explain the hyper-reality. How do I explain such a rich experience, such an interactive experience, one with so much very vivid, and auditory and visual components when the parts of my human brain that normally handle all that were infected with meningitis and were not working. And especially how was it that the mind would experience consciousness, and handling very complex tasks?" Alexander said during the interview.
....

My conclusion is that the experience was very real and had to happen outside of my brain, and it had to happen outside of this physical universe. [...] There is an element of our consciousness that is not dependent on the brain and that is what was set free, for me, and went on that journey."

"Any scientists who doubt the reality of such extraordinary near-death experiences should begin by explaining the fundamental mechanism of conscious awareness. The evidence for the reality of many related phenomena, such as remote viewing and influence, and out-of-body phenomena, is overwhelming. The reductive materialist view of physical reality, as it currently stands, is not going to fully explain consciousness," he said.
...

"I see science and spirituality going forward, together—science and spirituality as being one, and complementing each other beautifully. Both the religious side and the science side will have to let go of some of the more simplistic dogmatic assumptions and statements, but then science and spirituality and this deeper knowledge of the profound nature of our individual consciousness can move forward. The world will be an enormously better place when we do that," he concluded.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/science/near-death-experiences-30-years-of-research-part-5-62649.html

Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2011, 05:46:40 AM

Quote from: Pierac on October 14, 2011, 05:07:43 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 13, 2011, 06:59:20 AM
I have questions about the timings of resurrections, judgments, and where people are exactly in the meantime.  But even though I don't have all the answers to those questions and how it all fits together, I guess it comes down to, do I believe my own questions, doubts, and reasonings?  Or do I believe Jesus?

  "..upon this bedrock I will build My group of Called Ones, and the gates of the grave won't overpower it."  Mt. 16:18, The Christian Bible (1991)

"..and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"  John 11:26  ESV

Your right, it's about the timing... believe Jesus   :2c:

Joh 6:39  "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Joh 6:40  "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."  

Joh 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.  

Joh 6:54  "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.  

Joh 11:24  Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.   

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in
Christ will rise first. 

:dontknow:
Paul

Raising him up on the last day refers to resurrection of the body.

After saying all this, he proceded to raise Lazarus up that very day.

He tells Martha, "I am the resurrection and the life."

So, technically, how could anyone be in Christ and be 'dead.'

Yet, he uses that word to distinguish from people who still walk on earth in their earthly bodies.

But, we don't need this earthly body to live.

Our friend Lazarus is asleep.  Let's go wake him up!

Yes, I understand this Greek interpretation. However, it has no foundation within scripture! It's a tradition of men!  

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Christian Words and Christian Meanings, by John Burnaby (pp. 148, 149):

"Greek philosophers had argued that the dissolution which we call death happens to nothing but bodies, and that the souls of men are by their native constitution immortal. The Greek word for immortality occurs only once in the New Testament, and there it belongs to none but the King of Kings.... The immortality of the soul is no part of the Christian creed,  just as it is no part of Christian anthropology to divide soul and body and confine the real man, the essence of personality, to supposedly separable soul for which embodiment is imprisonment.... Jesus taught no doctrine of everlasting life for disembodied souls, such as no Jew loyal to the faith his fathers could have accepted or even understood. But Jewish belief was in the raising of the dead at the Last Day."

(Why then do churches constantly say that disembodied souls have gone to heaven or hell?)


Law and Grace, by Professor A. F. Knight (p. 79):
"In the Old Testament man is never considered to be a soul dwelling in a body, a soul that will one day be set free from the oppression of the body, at the death of that body, like a bird released from a cage. The Hebrews were not dualists in their understanding of God's world."


Ecc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.    :dontknow:

Body or no body!  :dontknow:   No work!  No thought! No wisdom! No Nothing!  


Joh 6:40  "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."  

Raise HIM or raise his body???    :dontknow:

Joh 5:28  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice...     Who (humans) are in the tombs or just physical bodys  with out souls in the tombs?  How do bodys with out souls hear him?  :dontknow:

The truth is the truth...  "No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death"  Only the Egyptian, Phoenician and  Greek myths teach such, as I read no biblical text!  :2c:

Paul

Quote from: Pierac"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death"

body, soul, spirit

Remember him--before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well. Ecc 12:6

What do you think goes to Hades if there is no soul?

BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.  [Acts 2:27]


The Bible is pretty clear that at death there is separation of body, soul, and spirit--the body returns to dust, the soul to Hades, and the spirit to God.

Paul tells his Christian brothers that there is an eternal body in heaven prepared for us [for our souls] if/when this earthly tent [body] we are living in dissolves.  But, then if I recall, you discount Paul.

Yet, this is in keeping with the Melchizedek priesthood which is based on the power of an indestructible life.

For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands.[2Cor 5:1]

Paul's 'to be or not to be' soliloquy:


19For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

--Phil 1

Quote from: Molly on October 17, 2011, 03:04:55 AM

Quote from: Pierac"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death"

body, soul, spirit

Remember him--before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well. Ecc 12:6

What do you think goes to Hades if there is no soul?

BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.  [Acts 2:27]


The Bible is pretty clear that at death there is separation of body, soul, and spirit--the body returns to dust, the soul to Hades, and the spirit to God.

Paul tells his Christian brothers that there is an eternal body in heaven prepared for us [for our souls] if/when this earthly tent [body] we are living in dissolves.  But, then if I recall, you discount Paul.

Yet, this is in keeping with the Melchizedek priesthood which is based on the power of an indestructible life.

For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands.[2Cor 5:1]

I do not discount Paul but support his teachings... It is you whom actually disagree with Paul... 

What does Paul tell us?  (2Ti 2:18)  men (or women) who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Wow... This was written many decades after many thousands of christians have died in Jesus' name!!!

John tells us  (Rev 20:5)  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.  Was John talking about just bodies or actual (souls) people???   :dontknow:

John also wrote many years after Jesus death...  Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.  That means no one!

Why did John write this... to show you the past or present the future...  Joh 20:31  but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Perhaps your reading traditions of men... not scripture...  :dontknow:
Paul

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 14, 2011, 01:19:50 PM
I would like some opinions on Reply #47 and 48

...

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2011, 02:43:34 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2011, 02:30:03 PM
The Israelites were also taken into the desert as soon as they were released from captivity by God.

That's a pattern I never really figured out.
They were in the desert for 40 years. Jesus for 40 days. That's simple.
But they were only that long in the desert because they didn't obey. Their journey could have ended at mt. Sinai. I think there was "pentecost event" at that mountain.  (the cloud)

That was 3 months after they left Egypt. What happend to Jesus after 3 days? Or should the failure of the Isrealites no be part of the pattern.
Could be; but "3" is a to significant number to just ignore....

Sorry brother...  
I'm just not into numbers! and stuff!  

However... 3 seems important to Mike...   http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/completion.php

You can back click to the other numbers, colors and stuff! Hope it's helpful!  :thumbsup:

Paul

Quote from: PieracWhat does Paul tell us? (2Ti 2:18) men (or women) who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Wow... This was written many decades after many thousands of christians have died in Jesus' name!!!

I'm not saying the resurrection has already taken place.  The resurrection is an event involving our physical bodies, happening to many at the same time. 

I quoted Paul saying that we have an eternal body prepared for us by God in heaven when this body dies.  I quoted Paul saying he would rather leave this body and be with the Lord.  This is different from Jesus ascending into heaven body, soul, and spirit.

I'm trying to take all passages of scripture into account instead of just some.

But I, along with millions of Christians, know the truth about this matter--that He will never forsake us or leave us, that  whether in this body or out of it,  we will be ever with the Lord.


2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

--John 14


...and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever. [Psa 23]

the 1000year reign...as the day of Judgement....concludes all in Adam condemned....but all raised up in Christ to immortality by free gift of righteousness.

   Adam,lived 930 years in sinful flesh state...as day of judgemnet. Father cut days in sinful flesh 'short' to 70 years[lest no flesh be saved].

   doctrines of demons let out of the abyss at end of thousand years...are the 'works' that follow those who err...straw,hay,wood...works of darkness

   that surround camp of city He loves[spirit and truth] erronous traditions of men,doctrines of demons[inspired]..promoting 'loss' of all mankind

   bought by Christ.[their 'works' do follow them=muddying streams for others to drink,when you drink clean water-shoving weak/sin-sick aside]

    Man as a sheep.....has a cloven hoof...because He is a two-part creation...bearing image of the corruptible[first Adam] and incorruptible[last Adam from heaven]

     designed for His progency to expierence this good/evil exerciize.


   Son of man is the new spiritual creature...that was subjected to vanity[this death/corrupt realm] and He originated and was born of the will of God....

   when the Lamb was slain before the founding of the world[all spirit children of God come from Heaven] see sheet of animals coming down from heaven..

  in Peter's vision...and returning to heaven. Son of man refers to all spirit children of God....man in our image. sown in the earth by God[wheat/tares parable]

    Jesus, of whom all in Adam are due to be raised up in image of the incorruptible....has name of son of man and son of God...and so,too, we have that

  name[son of man/Adam son of God/Adam] as Jesus also bears this very idenitiy.   So, when you read..no-one has ascended up to heaven except He that comes

    down from heaven...remember the sheet in Peter's vision...Paul's story of a man caught up to the third heaven..the two wittness call to come up here..

   and the term 'son of man' named so of God to differnt prophets.

    Now the whole creation has been groaning for the revealing of the sons of God....and the 'revealing' of Jesus Christ is also the revealing of those

   whose lives are hidden in Christ[even all that have died in Adam].

    The better resurrection is the being clothed in immortal,incorruptible garments[1st]  firstborn in heaven[all mankind]  even spirits of just men made perfect.

      when you resurrect some-one you restore them to a former state....

     IT'S ALWAY'S BEEN ALL ABOUT SPIRIT,PEOPLE.......flesh profits nothing,can not enter.....SPIRIT CREATURE CLOTHED IN VANITY/corruptible flesh

   SPIRIT CREATURE RETURNING HOME CLOTHED IN IMMORTAL CELESTIAL BODY....


    AWAKE,AWAKE,O'ZION[resurrection}   CLOTHE YOURSELF WITH STRENGTH[incorruptible spirit celestial body]

    PUT ON YOUR GARMENTS OF SPLENOUR[celestial body] O'JERUSALEM THE HOLY CITY

   THE UNCIRCUMCIZED AND DEFILE WILL NOT ENTER YOU AGAIN[incorrupt bile vessel impermeable to evil spirits]

   SHAKE OF YOUR DUST![FILTHY RAGS/FLESHY GARMENT]

    RISE UP!!SIT ENTHRONED![REIGN OVER DEATH,CORRUPTION,SIN WITH CHRIST] O'JERUSALEM

   FREE YOURSELF FROM THE CHAINS OF YOUR NECK,O'CAPTIVE DAUGHTER

   

It's always been about:
Spirit, soul and body!

Why would Jesus take His up again if it mattered not?

Psalm 16:10;
because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.


Acts 2:27;
because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.


Acts 2:31;
Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay.

 :HeartThrob: Good Word Sheila~ :icon_flower:

Quote from: Molly on October 17, 2011, 11:15:13 AM

Quote from: PieracWhat does Paul tell us? (2Ti 2:18) men (or women) who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Wow... This was written many decades after many thousands of christians have died in Jesus' name!!!

I'm not saying the resurrection has already taken place.  The resurrection is an event involving our physical bodies, happening to many at the same time. 

I quoted Paul saying that we have an eternal body prepared for us by God in heaven when this body dies.  I quoted Paul saying he would rather leave this body and be with the Lord.  This is different from Jesus ascending into heaven body, soul, and spirit.

I'm trying to take all passages of scripture into account instead of just some.

But I, along with millions of Christians, know the truth about this matter--that He will never forsake us or leave us, that  whether in this body or out of it,  we will be ever with the Lord.


2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

--John 14


...and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever. [Psa 23]

Inorder to understand Paul in Phi 1:23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

One must simply understand that the dead know nothing, no thought, deed, nor praise!  Paul as a scholar would be very familiar with this scriptural understanding!  Yet, Paul states... to depart and be with Christ!

It's simple! Paul knew that at his death his mind, and body would cease to exist as scripyture teaches! Yet at the Resurrection on the last day... He would be revived both body and soul! Paul in his tomb will hear his voice, and arise as if he died 1/1,000,000. of a second ago!   :thumbsup:

Paul

George Hawtin ably wrote of this death-realm: 

"Now it naturally follows that, if our blessed Lord spent all the days of His earthly existence in death, we also are doing the same, and I shall advance many infallible proofs to show that the very thing men have called life is not life at all, but death.
 
Indeed we may claim that three score and ten years are the years of our life and, of course, we all understand what is meant by that statement, but the real truth is that the three score and ten years during which we dwell in this corruptible body are not the years of our life, but the years of our death. 

When we mortals put a man in a coffin and bury him in the dark, cold earth, we say the man is dead, and indeed he is; but have you heard what Jesus answered when one or His disciples said to Him, 'Suffer me first to go and bury my father?'  The strange reply He gave was this 'Follow Me: and let the dead bury their dead' (Mat. 8:21-22). 

How strange that statement sounds to us who do not understand what death is, but the Lord was really telling them that the able bodied men who were carrying the coffin to the cemetery were just as dead as the man who was lying breathless within it.  In other words, the very thing we insist is life God says is death. 

The sooner we learn that lesson the sooner we will release as useless all things that pertain to this realm of death that we might be enabled to firmly lay hold on life, even the life which Jesus gives, aionian life, or the life of the ages. 

When the truth of this dawned upon my soul, I found many earthly things slipping away from me in a manner I had nor known hitherto.  Who among us could ever desire to lay fast hold upon that which he discovers to be naught but death?  The things that are dead we bury out of our sight, and I think I am right in saying that the lusts and temptations that belong to this death lose their grip upon us when we know that they are naught but death and that the flesh life to which these temptations cling is but a vapor that the wind driveth away.

I cannot see myself slaving to lay up great wealth in store for that which I know is dead.  What an abominable lie has gripped our hearts, deceiving us into endless labor and travail until on every side men and women are dying of heart attacks in their worry to provide worthless goods for this body of death."

Yet some tell us that the dead are dead — that there is no life or consciousness or being for the child of God apart from or beyond or above  physical existence — should you lay this tabernacle  aside there is nothing — you cease to exist — you are gone!

I do not hesitate to tell you that it is a wicked lie, a monstrous deceit, and a dreadful denial of the life we have now been given in Christ Jesus.

Let's get right down to brass tacks here.  Do you want to hear the truth beyond all the superstitions you've heard, beyond all the emptiness and hopelessness of Old Testament economy?  Eternal life is first and foremost spiritual, not physical. 

To hear some preachers teach it one would think that a man cannot possess eternal life except it be manifest on the physical level — in an immortal body.  I think that no man understands the first thing about life out of death who misses the clear and unmistakable understanding given by Paul in his words to the Romans:  "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom. 8:10).  The body is dead, just as God told Adam it would be.  So for the man who has received Christ his body is still dead because of sin but his spirit is alive because of righteousness — Christ's righteousness, of course, for there is none other, the righteousness that comes with Him when we believe into Him and He gives us Himself and with and by Himself His life. 

This life which even now is reality within us is that life and immortality which has been BROUGHT TO LIGHT through the gospel.  Hear and believe the wonderful news, precious friend of mine, YOUR SPIRIT I-S A-L-I-V-E BECAUSE OF THE INDWELLING CHRIST!  Those who minister the finality of death — when your body dies you're dead and gone, non-existent — minister under the blindness of the OLD COVENANT, the ministration of death.  They know not that the Christ has come and given us life, they understand not that Christ IS NOW the resurrection and the life, they comprehend not the glad truth that eternal life is even now a glorious and eternal reality in "the inner man"   which is renewed day by day," they, like the patriarchs and the prophets under the Old Testament, and like the Jews to this very day, are still awaiting the Saviour and looking to some future day  for the resurrection, totally oblivious to the wonderful fact that "If ye then BE RISEN with Christ, seek those things which are above (in the higher realm of the spirit; where your eternal life is), where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God"  (Col. 3:1).  I am here to tell you that CHRIST IS COME!  I proclaim to you today the glad tidings of the NEW TESTAMENT, the ministration of life.  God has anointed me to declare the RESURRECTION WHICH I-S, not one that shall be! 

Those who minister the finality of death minister the Old Covenant and know nothing as they ought to know and have seen nothing — the heavens have never been opened to them.  Their ministry is not one of faith and hope and present reality,  but of fear of death and a sense of foreboding and depression.  They know not the life that transcends the body, the life that is first of all realized spiritually rather than soulishly or physcially.  Death is emphasized, dramatized, its power glorified by men who minister, not out of the power of life, but out of the fear of death.  It is the fear of death that drives many in this hour to seek the immortality of the body.   And make no mistake!  "If the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead SHALL ALSO QUICKEN (MAKE ALIVE) YOUR M-0-R-T-A-L  B-O-D-I-E-S by His Spirit that dwelleth in you"  (Rom. 8:11). 

That is the hope yet to be fulfilled in and through the manifested sons of God.  But I say to all who have not the consciousness of that eternal life which is already yours, that resurrection in which you are already raised, that eternal consciousness, existence and being you already are, I say to those who are striving for physical immortality because of the fear of the finality of death — Christ has already come and Himself partook of flesh and blood, that through death He might destroy death, and might DELIVER THEM WHO THROUGH FEAR OF DEATH ARE ALL THEIR LIFETIME SUBJECT TO BONDAGE.  Under the Old Testament life and immortality had not yet been fully brought to light.  No wonder the old saints often lived and spoke as those subject to bondage.  No wonder they emphasized the power of death, the hopelessness of death, the finality of death!  But how sad that the redeemed of Jesus Christ, His brethren, so often prove that they know so little of the deliverance and life He has given and the song of joy: "Death is swallowed up in victory.  Thanks be to God who giveth us the victory, through Christ our Lord!"  My brother! art thou living in the full experience of this blessed truth?  He delivers from the fear of death and the bondage it brings, changing it into the joy of knowing that "we have passed from death unto life!

           Since then, we have been made alive because of our spirit being quickened by His Spirit, Paul leads us on to another marvelous truth which I fear multitudes of earnest believers are failing to see, including some elect saints of God.  "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but a now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who HATH ABOLISHED DEATH, and HATH BROUGHT life and immortality to light through the gospel" (II Tim. 1:9-10).  The Word of God is true.  It is not a silly fairy tale or a superstitious myth.  It is not a lie.  Men are liars.  God is true.  And when God says, "Christ who hath abolished death,"  we poor puny worms of the dust had better believe it, and cease calling God a liar by telling Him He is wrong.  For "he that believeth not God hath made Him a liar" (I Jn. 5:10). 

Oh, read it and re-read it and rejoice in it with joy unspeakable and full of glory!  Through His thirty-three years of death Christ hath abolished death and through the power of His glorious resurrection He has brought that resurrection life into us so that it is wonderfully true that "when we were dead . . . He hath quickened us together with Christ, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:5-6).  Christ on Calvary bore every sin of every sinner.  He was made a sin-offering  (Capricornus—the goat) for us, He who knew no sin.  And since He became our sin-offering, therefore when He died, our sin died.  Calvary atoned.  And then and there the total and unending death that fallen on Adam and his race fell on another.  "The bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD" (Jn. 6:51).  Oh, the victory of Calvary means so much more than any of us ever realized in the past. 

It was such a pathetically ineffectual work, according to the way it was once taught us.  It was weak and so limited in scope, so incomplete!  Christ came to save the world (Jn, 12:47); God sent His Son "that THE WORLD through Him might be saved" (Jn. 3:17).  But it was all in vain.  He wasn't able to do what He came for.  That's what the preachers say.  Thank God, that long night of darkness is passing!  Thank God, a fuller, deeper message now goes forth, which does not limit the God of Israel, which does not belittle and besmear the atonement, the all-inclusive work of our Saviour Jesus Christ!  He did not die in vain!  He was not a failure!  Calvary was not a defeat, but an exultant victory.  And there He, the spotless sinless Lamb of God actually gave His life for the life "OF THE WORLD."  Let us never again forget that fact.  —  PRESTON EBY

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 18, 2011, 05:58:36 AM


Yet some tell us that the dead are dead — that there is no life or consciousness or being for the child of God apart from or beyond or above  physical existence — should you lay this tabernacle  aside there is nothing — you cease to exist — you are gone!

I do not hesitate to tell you that it is a wicked lie, a monstrous deceit, and a dreadful denial of the life we have now been given in Christ Jesus.

Let's get right down to brass tacks here.  Do you want to hear the truth beyond all the superstitions you've heard, beyond all the emptiness and hopelessness of Old Testament economy?  Eternal life is first and foremost spiritual, not physical. 

To hear some preachers teach it one would think that a man cannot possess eternal life except it be manifest on the physical level — in an immortal body.  I think that no man understands the first thing about life out of death who misses the clear and unmistakable understanding given by Paul in his words to the Romans:  "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom. 8:10).  The body is dead, just as God told Adam it would be.  So for the man who has received Christ his body is still dead because of sin but his spirit is alive because of righteousness — Christ's righteousness, of course, for there is none other, the righteousness that comes with Him when we believe into Him and He gives us Himself and with and by Himself His life. 

This life which even now is reality within us is that life and immortality which has been BROUGHT TO LIGHT through the gospel.  Hear and believe the wonderful news, precious friend of mine, YOUR SPIRIT I-S A-L-I-V-E BECAUSE OF THE INDWELLING CHRIST!  Those who minister the finality of death — when your body dies you're dead and gone, non-existent — minister under the blindness of the OLD COVENANT, the ministration of death.  They know not that the Christ has come and given us life, they understand not that Christ IS NOW the resurrection and the life, they comprehend not the glad truth that eternal life is even now a glorious and eternal reality in "the inner man"   which is renewed day by day," they, like the patriarchs and the prophets under the Old Testament, and like the Jews to this very day, are still awaiting the Saviour and looking to some future day  for the resurrection, totally oblivious to the wonderful fact that "If ye then BE RISEN with Christ, seek those things which are above (in the higher realm of the spirit; where your eternal life is), where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God"  (Col. 3:1).  I am here to tell you that CHRIST IS COME!  I proclaim to you today the glad tidings of the NEW TESTAMENT, the ministration of life.  God has anointed me to declare the RESURRECTION WHICH I-S, not one that shall be! 

Those who minister the finality of death minister the Old Covenant and know nothing as they ought to know and have seen nothing — the heavens have never been opened to them.  Their ministry is not one of faith and hope and present reality,  but of fear of death and a sense of foreboding and depression.  They know not the life that transcends the body, the life that is first of all realized spiritually rather than soulishly or physcially.  Death is emphasized, dramatized, its power glorified by men who minister, not out of the power of life, but out of the fear of death.  It is the fear of death that drives many in this hour to seek the immortality of the body.   And make no mistake!  "If the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead SHALL ALSO QUICKEN (MAKE ALIVE) YOUR M-0-R-T-A-L  B-O-D-I-E-S by His Spirit that dwelleth in you"  (Rom. 8:11). 

That is the hope yet to be fulfilled in and through the manifested sons of God.  But I say to all who have not the consciousness of that eternal life which is already yours, that resurrection in which you are already raised, that eternal consciousness, existence and being you already are, I say to those who are striving for physical immortality because of the fear of the finality of death — Christ has already come and Himself partook of flesh and blood, that through death He might destroy death, and might DELIVER THEM WHO THROUGH FEAR OF DEATH ARE ALL THEIR LIFETIME SUBJECT TO BONDAGE.  Under the Old Testament life and immortality had not yet been fully brought to light.  No wonder the old saints often lived and spoke as those subject to bondage.  No wonder they emphasized the power of death, the hopelessness of death, the finality of death!  But how sad that the redeemed of Jesus Christ, His brethren, so often prove that they know so little of the deliverance and life He has given and the song of joy: "Death is swallowed up in victory.  Thanks be to God who giveth us the victory, through Christ our Lord!"  My brother! art thou living in the full experience of this blessed truth?  He delivers from the fear of death and the bondage it brings, changing it into the joy of knowing that "we have passed from death unto life!

           Since then, we have been made alive because of our spirit being quickened by His Spirit, Paul leads us on to another marvelous truth which I fear multitudes of earnest believers are failing to see, including some elect saints of God.  "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but a now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who HATH ABOLISHED DEATH, and HATH BROUGHT life and immortality to light through the gospel" (II Tim. 1:9-10).  The Word of God is true.  It is not a silly fairy tale or a superstitious myth.  It is not a lie.  Men are liars.  God is true.  And when God says, "Christ who hath abolished death,"  we poor puny worms of the dust had better believe it, and cease calling God a liar by telling Him He is wrong.  For "he that believeth not God hath made Him a liar" (I Jn. 5:10). 

Oh, read it and re-read it and rejoice in it with joy unspeakable and full of glory!  Through His thirty-three years of death Christ hath abolished death and through the power of His glorious resurrection He has brought that resurrection life into us so that it is wonderfully true that "when we were dead . . . He hath quickened us together with Christ, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:5-6).  Christ on Calvary bore every sin of every sinner.  He was made a sin-offering  (Capricornus—the goat) for us, He who knew no sin.  And since He became our sin-offering, therefore when He died, our sin died.  Calvary atoned.  And then and there the total and unending death that fallen on Adam and his race fell on another.  "The bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD" (Jn. 6:51).  Oh, the victory of Calvary means so much more than any of us ever realized in the past. 

It was such a pathetically ineffectual work, according to the way it was once taught us.  It was weak and so limited in scope, so incomplete!  Christ came to save the world (Jn, 12:47); God sent His Son "that THE WORLD through Him might be saved" (Jn. 3:17).  But it was all in vain.  He wasn't able to do what He came for.  That's what the preachers say.  Thank God, that long night of darkness is passing!  Thank God, a fuller, deeper message now goes forth, which does not limit the God of Israel, which does not belittle and besmear the atonement, the all-inclusive work of our Saviour Jesus Christ!  He did not die in vain!  He was not a failure!  Calvary was not a defeat, but an exultant victory.  And there He, the spotless sinless Lamb of God actually gave His life for the life "OF THE WORLD."  Let us never again forget that fact.  —  PRESTON EBY

It's all in the timing... And as to holding to old and new Covenants... That's just pure spiritual childness...  

COVENANT, n. [L, to come; a coming together; a meeting or agreement of minds.]

1. A mutual consent or agreement of two or more persons, to do or to forbear some act or thing; a contract; stipulation. A covenant is created by deed in writing, sealed and executed; or it may be implied in the contract.

There is no longer a Covenant!  The very idea of a Covenant requires for you to up hold to your part of the deal!  What part of Eph 2:8 do you not understand? For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;  not as a result of works (covenants) , so that no one may boast.   A covenant requires for you to do your part to make it complete! Paul spoke against such traditions of men... I'm suprised EBY missed this simple fact!   :dontknow:

Paul

Thank you, Beloved Servant, for that Eby article.  Someone who understands the Good News!


As Paul tells us, for the will [testament] to go into effect, the testator has to die first.  The testator died on the cross and we children of God are NOW co-inheritors with Christ.

And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God's glory.  Rom 8:17


And now he has made all of this plain to us by the appearing of Christ Jesus, our Savior. He broke the power of death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the Good News.   2 Tim 1:10


For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
Eph 1:4

a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, Titus 1:2


he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.  Titus 3:5


To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.  Rom 2:7

GOOD NEWS!!!


Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Gal 4:7


"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. Acts 20:32


Do you believe this? :John 11:25


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnni9g7hgM

The New Testament is a will.  We are beneficiaries under this will.  How many know this?  Raise your hands if you understand.




"A will or testament is a legal declaration by which a person, the testator, names one or more persons to manage his/her estate and provides for the transfer of his/her property at death. For the devolution of property not disposed of by will, see inheritance and intestacy.

In the strictest sense, a "will" has historically been limited to real property while "testament" applies only to dispositions of personal property (thus giving rise to the popular title of the document as "Last Will and Testament"), though this distinction is seldom observed today. A will may also create a testamentary trust that is effective only after the death of the testator."  --Wikipedia



11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.  [Heb 9]




None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.  1 Cor 2:8

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2011, 09:29:06 AM16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.  [Heb 9]

The prodical son got his share while his father was still alive.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 18, 2011, 12:44:26 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2011, 09:29:06 AM16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.  [Heb 9]

The prodical son got his share while his father was still alive.

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore

[Rev 1]

 :dontknow:

Understanding the Promise

My parents set up irrevocable trust agreements for each of us seven children. Once the trust papers had been signed, they could not be annulled or changed. These irrevocable trusts demonstrate our parents' generous, unconditional love for us.

In Galatians 3:15-18 Paul uses a similar legal document to illustrate the nature of the Abrahamic covenant: Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case (v. 15). This "irrevocable trust agreement" that God made with Abraham is described in terms of the beneficiary of the trust (v. 16), the date of the trust (v. 17) and the condition for inheritance (v. 18). Our study of these terms of the Abrahamic covenant will enable us to appreciate the gracious, unconditional nature of God's love for us.The Beneficiary of the Trust (3:16)


Paul carefully examines the terms of the Abrahamic covenant and notes that the promises of this covenant were made to Abraham and to his seed. The term seed, Paul explains, is not plural but singular. Therefore the covenant designated one person, not many people, to be the recipient of the promises. That one person, says Paul, is Christ.

Except for the lawyers among us who enjoy the minutiae of legal arguments, Paul's discussion may seem to be over our heads. But if we understand Paul's hidden agenda, we will be able to grasp the reason for this technical argument about one term in the Abrahamic covenant. We have to realize that Paul's definition of seed contradicts the Jewish nationalistic interpretation of this term. Jews were convinced that the term seed referred to the physical descendants of Abraham, the Jewish people. Therefore they believed it was absolutely necessary to belong to the Jewish nation in order to receive the blessings promised to Abraham.

In Jewish literature the generic singular seed was usually interpreted as a collective singular, referring to the nation of Israel. But seed was also understood by the rabbis to be a specific singular, referring to an individual--for example, Isaac or David or Solomon. Paul's attention to the grammatical form of this term is very much like the rabbinic practice of exegesis. But Paul's interpretation is based on his conviction that Christ is the sole heir and channel of God's promised blessing. So while he uses common Jewish methods of exegesis, Paul's messianic interpretation of seed restricts the reference to Christ and negates the common nationalistic interpretation. It is no longer necessary to be in the Jewish nation to be a recipient of the promises; it is necessary to be in Christ.

Paul is just as exclusive as his Jewish counterparts, but his exclusivity is not based on ethnic identity. Since Christ is the heir of the promises, all those and only those who are in Christ by faith are beneficiaries of the irrevocable trust agreement God made with Abraham (v. 29).

We can see by the way Paul uses the term seed in verse 29 that his emphasis on its singularity in verse 16 does not restrict the seed to one individual person. Christ, the one seed of Abraham, includes within himself a new community of all believers where there are no racial, social or gender divisions. Just as the seed is one (v. 16), so "you are all one in Christ" (v. 28). So the emphasis on the oneness of the seed in verse 16 prepares the way for the emphasis on the unity of all in Christ in verse 28. Whereas the law made a division between Jews and Gentiles, Christ, the promised seed of Abraham, is the center of a new unity of Jews and Gentiles. The people of God are no longer identified by ethnic origins, but by union with Christ.The Date of the Trust (3:17)


Legal documents are signed and dated. Dates establish the precedence of one document over another. In the case of a will, a subsequent codicil or new will can annul or change the terms of the previous document. So lawyers search to make sure they have the document with the latest date which overrides all previous documents.

In the case of an irrevocable trust agreement, however, subsequent documents cannot overturn the terms of the original document. Paul has this type of document in mind. He carefully notes that the date on the irrevocable trust agreement made with Abraham places that covenant 430 years before the Mosaic law. If the Mosaic law and the Abrahamic covenant had the same date, then one might suppose that the Mosaic law should be included in the understanding of the terms of the Abrahamic covenant. But the fact that the Mosaic law came 430 years after the Abrahamic covenant indicates that the two should be clearly distinguished from each other and that the terms of the Abrahamic covenant should not be confused with or changed by the terms of the Mosaic covenant.

This distinction between the time of the confirmation of the promise to Abraham and that of the giving of the law stands in stark contrast to the rabbinic claim that Abraham knew and kept even the minutest details of the Mosaic law. In Jewish tradition the Mosaic law had been inseparably linked with the Abrahamic covenant. Influenced by this perspective, the Galatian believers had come to think that it was necessary to keep the Mosaic law to inherit the blessings promised to Abraham. In Paul's view, those who seek the inheritance through the law have failed to recognize the precedence of the promise in salvation history. They have failed to realize that because the law came 430 years after the promise it could not annul or be attached to the promise as a condition of inheriting the promised blessings.

Since Paul equates the promise and the gospel, the distinction he sees between promise and law is also a distinction between gospel and law. Those who minimize or deny this contrast between gospel and law need to consider the radical nature of Paul's distinction.The Condition for Inheritance (3:18)


When my parents set up the trust agreements for their seven children, we were all very young and could not have possibly fulfilled any conditions to merit the gift of inheritance that they provided for us. It is true that we grew up in a home marked by high standards and strict discipline. But if someone supposed that our inheritance depended on living up to the high standards set in the home, we could easily demonstrate that such a supposition was ridiculous. In the first place, none of us has been able to keep all the high standards set for us. In the second place, the irrevocable trust agreements were established for us before the standards were communicated to us. So we are beneficiaries by sheer grace.

Paul is concerned to demonstrate the unconditional nature of the promises made to Abraham. He points out the incompatibility between receiving the inheritance as a gift on the basis of a promise and receiving it as a payment for keeping the law: For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. The categories of payment and gift are mutually exclusive. Since the gift character of the promised inheritance is clearly established, the inheritance cannot be received as a payment for keeping the law. This logical argument is developed by Paul to drive home his rebuke for the foolish error of viewing something as a payment which had already been received as a gift.

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Gal/Understanding-Promise





Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.   Gal 4:28

Gill's exposition of the entire Bible

For where a testament is [Heb 9:16[ ,.... The covenant of grace, as administered under the Gospel dispensation, is a testament or will. The Jews have adopted the Greek word, here used, into their language, and pronounce it and by it understand a dying man's last will and testament (d). Some of them make it to be of Hebrew derivation; as if it was said, , "this shall be to confirm" (e), or this shall be stable and firm; though others own it to be the same with this Greek word (f). The covenant of grace, is properly a covenant to Christ, and a testament or will to his people: it is his and their Father's will, concerning giving them both grace and glory; it consists of many gifts and legacies; in it Christ is made heir of all things, and his people are made joint heirs with him; they are given to him as his portion; and they have all things pertaining to life and godliness bequeathed to them, even all spiritual blessings; the witnesses of it are Father, Son, and Spirit; and the seals of it are the blood of Christ, and the grace of the Spirit; and this is registered in the Scriptures by holy men as notaries; and is unalterable and immutable: and this being made,

there must also of necessity be the death of the testator; who is Christ; he has various parts in this will or testament; he is the surety and Mediator of it; and he is the executor of it; what is given in it, is first given to him, in order to be given to others; all things are put into his hands, and he has a power to give them to as many as the Father has given him; and here he is called the "testator": Christ, as God, has an equal right to dispose of the inheritance, both of grace and glory; and as Mediator, nothing is given without his consent; and whatever is given, is given with a view to his "death", and comes through it, and by virtue of it: hence there is a "necessity" of that, and that on the account of the divine perfections; particularly for the declaration of God's righteousness, or by reason of his justice; and also because of his purposes and decrees, which have fixed it, and of his promises, which are yea and amen in Christ, and are ratified by his blood, called therefore the blood of the covenant; and likewise on account of the engagements of Christ to suffer and die; as well as for the accomplishment of Scripture prophecies concerning it; and moreover, on account of the blessings which were to come to the saints through it, as a justifying righteousness, pardon of sin, peace and reconciliation, adoption and eternal life.



The message of the crucifixion is insanity to the lost, but to those of us who have life it is the power of God!  1Cor 1:18

Amen, Molly!


2 John 1:7;
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


is: (Strongs 2064; as present tense)

Christ is the testator, the mediator, the executor, and the inheritor.

Stand aside and bask in the free gift of God's glory.

He does it all!


How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. [1 John 3:1]

I Am The Way The Truth And The Life.

I Am The Vine

I Am The Bread That Comes Down From Heaven

He is the Radiance of the Father's Glory and the Express Icon of His Character and All Things hold togethr by the Word of His power.

I see Jesus as the Root and the Offspring of David. He walks among the Lampstands because He is the Light. The lampstand passed from Israel to the One New Man, a gathering of children born not of the will of man, but of God,which is also the Bride, the City, the Body, His Fulness, to which He is Head over all things.

When a branch(in this case, a church) ceases to abide (if you continue in my word you will be my disciples indeed) it begins to whither. Vital connection to Jesus-love- is the issue. Belief in UR does not in itself constitute a vital connection altho it is certainly a step in the right direction :o). When any doctrine becomes the center, rather than the koinonea of Christ, the love of the brethren and the love for those who oppose themselve(adversaries), the whithering begins.Eventually the axe may be laid to the root of the tree(lampstand removed from its place, Rev ch 2), branch cut off and gathered for burning, saltless salt cast out to be trodden under the feet of men(men rule in man not God in Christ). This, to me, doesnt mean the church no longer exists(in the earth), it means it no longer exists(in the heavens)- cast out of general assembly, no longer privileged to "shine", no longer a home where the Father and the Great Shepherd will lead their little lost ones for refuge.

Although UR encompasses two foundations of the faith(resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment; Hebrews 6 1-6)- the writer of Hebrews saw it as milk, and called us to move beyond it- once it  is laid of course.

THE CHURCH (eternal, universal body of believers), IMO, is best described in Hebrews 12

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
(Heb 12:22-24)

The churches may be better understood through the messages to the seven lampstands in Revelation 2 and 3.

They are, and have been, in various states of walking in the light, or not, since the beginning, some falling completely into death(synagogue of adversaries).

Though individual members of THE CHURCH, the ONE NEW MAN, the BRIDE, the BODY, etc- may be scattered through out churches that live or churches that are dying and even dead, I like what Paul said to Timothy, "The Lord knows those who are His...." and what John said, "Every child born of Him loves the child born of Him" and "The one who loves knows God and is known by Him" - and is therefore in THE CHURCH. even if they are not in a church. "He that loves not knows not God for God is love" (Depart from me you lawless ones, I never knew you). Being in a church is not being in THE CHURCH. The issue is the love of God, and as Sheila illustrated, the fragrance of Christ's breath- manifestation of the divine nature, which is, simply Jesus shining through us brightly enough for the world to see.

By this the world will kno that you are my disciples, by your love for one another. This is my prayer that you may be one, that your joy may be full. That you may be one even as I and the Father are one.

I wonder, if the desire for oneness and loving one another is a symptom of being in THE CHURCH, how many churches to day are in IN IT?

Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
(1Pe 1:22-23)

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
(2Pe 1:2-4)

[quote ]eaglesway[/quote]

Belief in UR does not in itself constitute a vital connection altho it is certainly a step in the right direction :o). When any doctrine becomes the center, rather than the koinonea of Christ, the love of the brethren and the love for those who oppose themselve(adversaries), the whithering begins


:icon_flower:

1 Corinthians 3:16,17;
   
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
If anyone destroys God's temple,
God will destroy him;
for God's temple is sacred,
and you are that temple.

Quote from: Taffy on October 18, 2011, 08:39:50 PM
[quote ]eaglesway

Quote

Belief in UR does not in itself constitute a vital connection altho it is certainly a step in the right direction :o). When any doctrine becomes the center, rather than the koinonea of Christ, the love of the brethren and the love for those who oppose themselve(adversaries), the whithering begins


:icon_flower:

"Koinonia is the anglicisation of a Greek word (κοινωνία) that means communion by intimate participation. The word is used frequently in the New Testament of the Bible to describe the relationship within the Early Christian church as well as the act of breaking bread in the manner which Christ prescribed during the Passover meal [John 6:48-69, Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:24]. As a result the word is used within the Christian Church to participate, as Paul says, in the Communion of - in this manner it identifies the idealised state of fellowship and community that should exist - Communion"


He breaks himself into many pieces and gives each of us a piece, so that we can share the bread of life with each other and him.  Lovely thought, that.

John 4:34;
"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

Obedience.

To the "when you die, your dead" piece of this conversation . . . do both sides agree that Jesus himself, when he died, still existed?  We keep hearing "the dead know nothing" as a platform to believe that when we die, we go into a "suspension" of awareness/existence until we're resurrected with our new bodies . . .so . . .how come that doesn't seem to be the case with Jesus . . who is the first fruits of all of us . . .right?

Nathan, Jesus existed but he was dead. He knew nothing while he was dead.

CHB

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 03:26:08 AM


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]

(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:9-10)

Quote from: eaglesway on October 19, 2011, 05:44:10 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 03:26:08 AM


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]

(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:9-10)

And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 08:34:10 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on October 19, 2011, 05:44:10 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 03:26:08 AM


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]

(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:9-10)

And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43

17The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

18When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train; you received gifts for men, even for the rebellious--that you, O LORD God, might dwell there.  Psalm 68


Ephesians 4:8 This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."


19Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

20He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death. Psa 68

Psalm 47:5 God has ascended amid shouts of joy, the LORD amid the sounding of trumpets.


Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

19Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God Yeshû‛âh. Selah.   [Psa 68]

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 03:26:08 AM


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]

Only dead things can be made alive.

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 08:34:10 AMAnd He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43

That's a translation based on doctrine. Or perhaps the doctrine is based on a unproven translation  :winkgrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2011, 09:40:36 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 03:26:08 AM


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]

Only dead things can be made alive.

Maybe so, but nevertheless, he is alive in the spirit and preaching to spirits in prison--while he is still in the grave.

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 09:48:37 AMpreaching to spirits in prison--while he is still in the grave.

More doctrine not supported by the Greek text.
:2c:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2011, 10:03:54 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 09:48:37 AMpreaching to spirits in prison--while he is still in the grave.

More doctrine not supported by the Greek text.
:2c:

How so?

Also, It's not the only text that refers to him being alive in the grave.

Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol.

1 Peter 3:18,19

Maybe this verse (topic) deserves a thread on it's own. Maybe it's just one of those never ending trinity/free will debate.

As a summary: The preaching was done during His life. The prisoners are Israel. (captives of the law?)

---

http://www.postost.net/commentary/1-pet/3/did-jesus-preach-spirits-prison-between-his-death-resurrection

First, it seems very unlikely that Peter is saying that Jesus was "made alive" before the making alive of the resurrection. It is much more likely that "having been made alive by the Spirit" refers to the resurrection (cf. Romans 1:3-4).  The verb zōopoieō is used most often in the New Testament to speak of the actual resurrection of believers (John 5:21; Rom. 4:17; 8:11; 1 Cor. 15:22, 36).
The verb poreuomai, which is used for "having gone" in verse 19, is used in verse 22 (and in Acts 1:10-11) for the ascension. That would suggest the following sequence: death, resurrection, ascension, proclamation to the spirits in prison. It would still be puzzling (there is nothing to correlate it with), but it would not require an un-Jewish "intermediate state" between death and resurrection.
However, Peter (the apostle) says that in the same Spirit by which he was raised from the dead Jesus also went to "proclaim to the spirits in prison". If we take poreutheis as a reference not to the ascension but simply to Jesus' ministry to Israel "in the Spirit", we would then only have to understand the allusion to Noah figuratively. Peter draws an analogy between the world before the destruction of the flood, when God's patience (makrothumia) with sin had been exhausted, from which a few escaped by the ark, and "unrighteous" Israel before the judgment and destruction of AD 70, from which a few were saved by the antitype of baptism.
So Jesus did not go in the spirit and proclaim to the generation of humanity before the flood. He went in the power of the Spirit that would later raise him to life to proclaim to a generation of Jews which was like the generation of humanity before the flood.
"In prison" (en phulakēi) would be a metaphor for Israel's captivity to sin or satan (cf. Matt. 12:29; Mk. 3:27; Lk. 11:21). Isaiah says that the servant of the Lord will "bring out from bonds those who are bound and from the prison (phulakas) house those who sit in darkness" (Is. 42:7 LXX).
It is basically the same argument that Jesus makes in Matthew 24:37-38 (= Lk. 17:26-27): just as the world was taken by surprise by the judgment of the flood, from which only Noah and his family were saved, so Israel will be taken by surprise by the judgment of the coming war, from which only a few will be saved. Paul upbraids the Jews for presuming on God's patience (makrothumia), which was meant to lead them to repentance (Rom. 2:4); and he asserts in Romans 9:22 that God's patience (makrothumia) has run out with Israel.






http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=10&article=851

In 1 Peter 3:18-20, a most curious reference appears on the surface to be an affirmation that Jesus descended into the spirit realm and preached to deceased people. However, a close consideration of the grammar will clarify the passage. First, the preaching referred to was not done by Jesus in His own person. The text says Jesus did the preaching through the Holy Spirit: "...the Spirit, by whom..." (v. 18-19). ["My Spirit" (Genesis 6:3) = the Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 2:17).] Other passages confirm that Jesus was said to do things that He actually did through the instrumentality of others (John 4:1-2; Ephesians 2:17). Nathan charged King David: "You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword" (2 Samuel 12:9), when, in fact, David had ordered it done by another. Elijah accused Ahab of killing Naboth, using the words, "Have you murdered and also taken possession?" (1 Kings 21:19), even though his wife, Jezebel, arranged for two other men to accomplish the evil action. Paul said Jesus preached peace to the Gentiles (Ephesians 2:17), when, in fact, Jesus did so through others, since He, Himself, already had returned to heaven when the first Gentiles heard the Gospel (Acts 15:7). So the Bible frequently refers to someone doing something that he, in fact, did through the agency of another person.
In fact, within the book of 1 Peter itself, Peter already had made reference to the fact that the Spirit "testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow" (1 Peter 1:11). But it was the prophets who did the actual speaking (vs. 10). Then, again in chapter 4, Peter stated that "the gospel was preached also to those who are dead" (1 Peter 4:6). Here were individuals who had the Gospel preached to them while they were alive ("in the flesh"), and who responded favorably by becoming Christians. But then they were "judged according to men in the flesh," i.e., they were treated harshly and condemned to martyrdom by their contemporaries. At the time Peter was writing, they were "dead," i.e., deceased and departed from the Earth. But Peter said they "live according to God in the spirit," i.e., they were alive and well in spirit form in the hadean realm in God's good graces.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2011, 10:36:11 AM
Maybe this verse (topic) deserves a thread on it's own. Maybe it's just one of those never ending trinity/free will debate.

As a summary: The preaching was done during His life. The prisoners are Israel. (captives of the law?)

---

http://www.postost.net/commentary/1-pet/3/did-jesus-preach-spirits-prison-between-his-death-resurrection

First, it seems very unlikely that Peter is saying that Jesus was "made alive" before the making alive of the resurrection. It is much more likely that "having been made alive by the Spirit" refers to the resurrection (cf. Romans 1:3-4).  The verb zōopoieō is used most often in the New Testament to speak of the actual resurrection of believers (John 5:21; Rom. 4:17; 8:11; 1 Cor. 15:22, 36).
The verb poreuomai, which is used for "having gone" in verse 19, is used in verse 22 (and in Acts 1:10-11) for the ascension. That would suggest the following sequence: death, resurrection, ascension, proclamation to the spirits in prison. It would still be puzzling (there is nothing to correlate it with), but it would not require an un-Jewish "intermediate state" between death and resurrection.
However, Peter (the apostle) says that in the same Spirit by which he was raised from the dead Jesus also went to "proclaim to the spirits in prison". If we take poreutheis as a reference not to the ascension but simply to Jesus' ministry to Israel "in the Spirit", we would then only have to understand the allusion to Noah figuratively. Peter draws an analogy between the world before the destruction of the flood, when God's patience (makrothumia) with sin had been exhausted, from which a few escaped by the ark, and "unrighteous" Israel before the judgment and destruction of AD 70, from which a few were saved by the antitype of baptism.
So Jesus did not go in the spirit and proclaim to the generation of humanity before the flood. He went in the power of the Spirit that would later raise him to life to proclaim to a generation of Jews which was like the generation of humanity before the flood.
"In prison" (en phulakēi) would be a metaphor for Israel's captivity to sin or satan (cf. Matt. 12:29; Mk. 3:27; Lk. 11:21). Isaiah says that the servant of the Lord will "bring out from bonds those who are bound and from the prison (phulakas) house those who sit in darkness" (Is. 42:7 LXX).
It is basically the same argument that Jesus makes in Matthew 24:37-38 (= Lk. 17:26-27): just as the world was taken by surprise by the judgment of the flood, from which only Noah and his family were saved, so Israel will be taken by surprise by the judgment of the coming war, from which only a few will be saved. Paul upbraids the Jews for presuming on God's patience (makrothumia), which was meant to lead them to repentance (Rom. 2:4); and he asserts in Romans 9:22 that God's patience (makrothumia) has run out with Israel.






http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=10&article=851

In 1 Peter 3:18-20, a most curious reference appears on the surface to be an affirmation that Jesus descended into the spirit realm and preached to deceased people. However, a close consideration of the grammar will clarify the passage. First, the preaching referred to was not done by Jesus in His own person. The text says Jesus did the preaching through the Holy Spirit: "...the Spirit, by whom..." (v. 18-19). ["My Spirit" (Genesis 6:3) = the Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 2:17).] Other passages confirm that Jesus was said to do things that He actually did through the instrumentality of others (John 4:1-2; Ephesians 2:17). Nathan charged King David: "You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword" (2 Samuel 12:9), when, in fact, David had ordered it done by another. Elijah accused Ahab of killing Naboth, using the words, "Have you murdered and also taken possession?" (1 Kings 21:19), even though his wife, Jezebel, arranged for two other men to accomplish the evil action. Paul said Jesus preached peace to the Gentiles (Ephesians 2:17), when, in fact, Jesus did so through others, since He, Himself, already had returned to heaven when the first Gentiles heard the Gospel (Acts 15:7). So the Bible frequently refers to someone doing something that he, in fact, did through the agency of another person.
In fact, within the book of 1 Peter itself, Peter already had made reference to the fact that the Spirit "testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow" (1 Peter 1:11). But it was the prophets who did the actual speaking (vs. 10). Then, again in chapter 4, Peter stated that "the gospel was preached also to those who are dead" (1 Peter 4:6). Here were individuals who had the Gospel preached to them while they were alive ("in the flesh"), and who responded favorably by becoming Christians. But then they were "judged according to men in the flesh," i.e., they were treated harshly and condemned to martyrdom by their contemporaries. At the time Peter was writing, they were "dead," i.e., deceased and departed from the Earth. But Peter said they "live according to God in the spirit," i.e., they were alive and well in spirit form in the hadean realm in God's good graces.

"However, Peter (the apostle) says that in the same Spirit by which he was raised from the dead Jesus also went to "proclaim to the spirits in prison". If we take poreutheis as a reference not to the ascension but simply to Jesus' ministry to Israel "in the Spirit", we would then only have to understand the allusion to Noah figuratively"



This is totally silly, especially for a UR person.

You just took one passage and turned it into a thesis and a metaphor.

How about taking it on face value.  It says what it means.

If you don't understand it, ask your near death people.

The fact is he did descend and ascend while in the grave and led captivity captive.

It doesn't say the Spirit proclaimed to the spirits.  It says Jesus, alive in the grave in Spirit proclaimed to the spirits.

But suit yourself.

KJV: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

This is very hard to explain for me because I have no clue how the grammar contruct is called in English.
Possibly it's called: subordinate clause.
I'll try to explain. It's just a refrence. It doesn't belong in the timeline of the verse.
Example.

Every sunday Molly visits church and afterward discusses the sermon with a group of friends.

Every sunday Molly, who's dog died last year, visits church and afterward discusses the sermon with a group of friends.

The blue part is what I mean. Your dog died last year. That's a fact. But in this context it doesn't mean you went to church. Then the dog died. After that you went to your study group. Neither does it mean your dog dies weekly because you went to church weekly.


Below some examples. All facts. But none really relevant for the verse. The verse would be equally complete without the blue part

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: loves His parents;"

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: was a honest man;"

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: was/is the Son of God;"


I hope you understand what grammer contruct I'm trying to explain  :mshock:

The grammatical construct makes perfect sense, although a little stilted and formal.

Try this instead.


Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol. [Aramaic Bible]

1 Peter 3:18,19


But to try to use your thesis--don't forget only 8 souls were saved out of the flood.  Not very good preaching if you ask me.

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 10:41:49 AM
This is totally silly, especially for a UR person.

Why especially for the UR view?

QuoteYou just took one passage and turned it into a thesis and a metaphor.

How about taking it on face value.  It says what it means.

That's what I did. That's the whole point.

QuoteIf you don't understand it, ask your near death people.

Hu?

QuoteThe fact is he did descend and ascend while in the grave and led captivity captive.

That's not a fact. It's what you claim without any proof.

QuoteIt doesn't say the Spirit proclaimed to the spirits.  It says Jesus, alive in the grave proclaimed to the spirits.

Read, read read......
Jesus preached 3 years (ministry) to the sprits in  prison (Jews).

QuoteBut suit yourself.

You really need to seperate doctrine/personal views from discussing things.

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 10:53:17 AM
The grammatical construct makes perfect sense, although a little stilted and formal.

Try this instead.


Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol. [Aramaic Bible]

1 Peter 3:18,19


But to try to use your thesis--don't forget only 8 souls were saved out of the flood.  Not very good preaching if you ask me.

Who are in Sheol? The dead. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. Whole Israel.

Assuming He really went to "hell": Why only 8 souls? I think those 8 and especially Noach are the one that need the preaching the least. What about the thousands of drowned people?

Seens simple enough to me.  I don't see anything there about the Jews , about the three year ministry of Jesus, or about any more than 8 souls being saved at the time of the flood.  But, this is a great UR passage if you can read English.



18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.  1 Peter 3

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2011, 11:04:12 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 10:53:17 AM
The grammatical construct makes perfect sense, although a little stilted and formal.

Try this instead.


Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol. [Aramaic Bible]

1 Peter 3:18,19


But to try to use your thesis--don't forget only 8 souls were saved out of the flood.  Not very good preaching if you ask me.

Who are in Sheol? The dead. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. Whole Israel.

Assuming He really went to "hell": Why only 8 souls? I think those 8 and especially Noach are the one that need the preaching the least. What about the thousands of drowned people?

No.  It's saying AT THE TIME OF THE FLOOD only 8 souls were saved.

Dead means separated from the living God.

Preaching to the spirits in prison [ a holding place]

also relates to the passage where he says he led

the prisoners captive in his train when he ascended

to heaven, because all those he led upward were

held prisoner in Sheol.

When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train. Psa 68:18

"He led captivity captive" [Eph 4:8] is literally saying he captured the prisoners of war--and led them up with him in his train.  It's a beautiful picture of redemption of the dead.

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 11:06:28 AMif you can read English.

I see you ran out of arguments.
If you want to discuss based on text, grammer and context I'm willing to spend 100 pages on it.

But with the current style of "debate" it ends right here right now.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2011, 11:36:09 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 11:06:28 AMif you can read English.

I see you ran out of arguments.
If you want to discuss based on text, grammer and context I'm willing to spend 100 pages on it.

But with the current style of "debate" it ends right here right now.

I am simply saying the English is very clear.  So is the Greek.

Eph 4:8  WhereforeG1352 he saith,G3004 When he ascended upG305 onG1519 high,G5311 he led captivity captive,G162 G161 andG2532

gaveG1325 giftsG1390 unto men.G444

Eph 4:9  (NowG1161 thatG3588 he ascended,G305 whatG5101 isG2076 it butG1508 thatG3754 he alsoG2532 descendedG2597 firstG4412

intoG1519 theG3588 lowerG2737 partsG3313 of theG3588 earth?G109

Eph 4:10  He that descendedG2597 isG2076 the sameG846 alsoG2532 that ascended upG305 far aboveG5231 allG3956 heavens,G3772 thatG2443

he might fillG4137 all things.)G39



If he is doing all this while 'dead' then you cannot say he iknows nothing.


But the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.


This is also OT prophesy as I pointed out.


Pe 3:18  ForG3754 ChristG5547 alsoG2532 hath onceG530 sufferedG3958 forG4012 sins,G266 the justG1342 forG5228 the unjust,G94 thatG2443 he might bringG4317 usG2248 to God,G2316 being put to deathG2289 in the(G3303) flesh,G4561 butG1161 quickenedG2227 by theG3588 Spirit:G4151

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 08:34:10 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on October 19, 2011, 05:44:10 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 03:26:08 AM


"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."  [1 Pet 3]

(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:9-10)

And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43

But you won't know it because the dead know nothing, hmmm, why am I wasting words up here on this cross about seeing you somewhere else later today..... I should be listening to the dogmatists of the future who kno better than me........

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 08:34:10 AMAnd He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43

The comma isn't in the Greek text.

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 11:54:25 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2011, 11:36:09 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 11:06:28 AMif you can read English.

I see you ran out of arguments.
If you want to discuss based on text, grammer and context I'm willing to spend 100 pages on it.

But with the current style of "debate" it ends right here right now.

I am simply saying the English is very clear.  So is the Greek.

Eph 4:8  WhereforeG1352 he saith,G3004 When he ascended upG305 onG1519 high,G5311 he led captivity captive,G162 G161 andG2532

gaveG1325 giftsG1390 unto men.G444

Eph 4:9  (NowG1161 thatG3588 he ascended,G305 whatG5101 isG2076 it butG1508 thatG3754 he alsoG2532 descendedG2597 firstG4412

intoG1519 theG3588 lowerG2737 partsG3313 of theG3588 earth?G109

Eph 4:10  He that descendedG2597 isG2076 the sameG846 alsoG2532 that ascended upG305 far aboveG5231 allG3956 heavens,G3772 thatG2443

he might fillG4137 all things.)G39



If he is doing all this while 'dead' then you cannot say he iknows nothing.

IF He did this during His death.
He didn't....
^ACVJohn 20
17 Jesus says to her, Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended  to my Father. But go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

QuoteBut the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.

Scripture states He was made alive. It doesn't state when.

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 11:32:22 AM
Preaching to the spirits in prison [ a holding place]

also relates to the passage where he says he led

the prisoners captive in his train when he ascended

to heaven, because all those he led upward were

held prisoner in Sheol.

When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train. Psa 68:18

"He led captivity captive" [Eph 4:8] is literally saying he captured the prisoners of war--and led them up with him in his train.  It's a beautiful picture of redemption of the dead.

We aren't discussing if He freed prisoners. It's about when. Your verse would for example also be correct if He took prisoners with Him on Pentecost.
In fact every date just 1 second before that verse was written would be correct (stricktly speaking).

According to Jesus Himself He hasn't ascended yet.
^CLVJohn 20
17 which is the term for "Teacher." Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 10:31:02 AM

QuoteBut the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.

Scripture states He was made alive. It doesn't state when.

Can Spirit die?

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 10:14:21 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 08:34:10 AMAnd He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43

The comma isn't in the Greek text.

The punctuation isn't in any of the Greek.  All the punctuation in the Bible is placed there by the  translators.

So as I translate that sentence, do I put the comma after truly, as in all the other statements Jesus starts with truly?

Or do I break the pattern and put it after today--truly I say to you today, [I was lying every other day]?

Please!

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 20, 2011, 03:02:29 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 10:31:02 AM

QuoteBut the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.

Scripture states He was made alive. It doesn't state when.

Can Spirit die?

Actually the scripture does not say he was 'made alive'.

The translator did that.

The scripture says

KILLED FLESH BUT ALIVE THE SPIRIT

Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.


One could place commas all through that sentence without changing its context.

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 03:12:23 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 20, 2011, 03:02:29 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 10:31:02 AM

QuoteBut the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.

Scripture states He was made alive. It doesn't state when.

Can Spirit die?

Actually the scripture does not say he was 'made alive'.

The translator did that.

The scripture says

KILLED FLESH BUT ALIVE THE SPIRIT

'nuff said!

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 10:31:02 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 11:54:25 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2011, 11:36:09 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 11:06:28 AMif you can read English.

I see you ran out of arguments.
If you want to discuss based on text, grammer and context I'm willing to spend 100 pages on it.

But with the current style of "debate" it ends right here right now.

I am simply saying the English is very clear.  So is the Greek.

Eph 4:8  WhereforeG1352 he saith,G3004 When he ascended upG305 onG1519 high,G5311 he led captivity captive,G162 G161 andG2532

gaveG1325 giftsG1390 unto men.G444

Eph 4:9  (NowG1161 thatG3588 he ascended,G305 whatG5101 isG2076 it butG1508 thatG3754 he alsoG2532 descendedG2597 firstG4412

intoG1519 theG3588 lowerG2737 partsG3313 of theG3588 earth?G109

Eph 4:10  He that descendedG2597 isG2076 the sameG846 alsoG2532 that ascended upG305 far aboveG5231 allG3956 heavens,G3772 thatG2443

he might fillG4137 all things.)G39



If he is doing all this while 'dead' then you cannot say he iknows nothing.

IF He did this during His death.
He didn't....
^ACVJohn 20
17 Jesus says to her, Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended  to my Father. But go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

QuoteBut the scripture points out he is dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit.

Scripture states He was made alive. It doesn't state when.

The spirit never died.  The spirit of man was committed to God's hands, but Jesus was more than the spirit of man.

He says, don't touch me, yet after that he is  touching, eating, and enjoying companionship with his disciples.

That means he ascended and offered his body to the Father as a pure sacrifice [nothing unclean could touch him before he did that--see the high priest day of atonement rituals in the OT]  right after he talked to her.

He ascends again at the end of 40 days to take his position on the right hand of the Father, where he is to this day.

But while in Hades as the Spirit, he preaches to the prisoners and leads captivity captive as he ascends on high with many souls.

He has the keys of death and hell, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against his church.

   SO THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS

    if I should make my bed in hell, Thou art there.Ps 139;8

   All things are yours,whether,life,death[1 Cor 3;22] or the world,or present or future-ALL ARE YOURS. AND YOU ARE OF CHRIST...AND CHRIST IS OF GOD

   Romans 8;32   If God is for us,who can be against us?He who did not spare His own son,but give him up for all of us- how will He not

  along with him,graciously give us all things?

      This speaks of sonship...the word that was with God of which all was created,the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world...

   this speaks of the all things of inheritance of the sons of God. The good/evil exercie/education of His eternal seed....which was created for their benefit,

  not their destruction[no weapon formed against you will suceed]

    Our Father has done it all

   

Paul says Jesus was in the abyss=abussos=bottomless pit, depths of the earth

5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).  [Romans 10]

So was Jonah--this is a place cast out of the sight of God. [Jonah 2:3,4]


SO THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 03:07:45 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 10:14:21 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 08:34:10 AMAnd He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43

The comma isn't in the Greek text.

The punctuation isn't in any of the Greek.  All the punctuation in the Bible is placed there by the  translators.

So as I translate that sentence, do I put the comma after truly, as in all the other statements Jesus starts with truly?

Or do I break the pattern and put it after today--truly I say to you today, [I was lying every other day]?

Not break the pattern. Just a pattern you don't like. Changing the position of the comma doesn't imply Jesus lied every other day.

Using yout line of reasoning there is a possibility Jesus was lying in the verse below because He didn't use truly.
^ACVMatt 5
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness abounds more than of the scholars and Pharisees, ye will, no, not enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 03:55:19 PM
Paul says Jesus was in the abyss=abussos=bottomless pit, depths of the earth

5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).  [Romans 10]

So was Jonah--this is a place cast out of the sight of God. [Jonah 2:3,4]


SO THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS

                                                                                                                  :HeartThrob:
                                                                                                           THE HEART

            Everything God has created consists of many "parts."  The geologist can explain to you the many "parts" of planet earth.  The botanist is able to give you the names and functions of the various "parts" of a flower.   The astronomer will point out the many billions of "parts" that make up the vast universe.  God has also created man with many "parts."  These are not just the physical parts or organs of the body, but also parts of the mind or soul, and parts of the spirit.  Do not think that the term "parts" in respect to our inner life originated with me!  The Holy Spirit spoke through the prophet Jeremiah with this promise, "I will put my law in their inward parts" (Jer. 31:33).  He is not referring to the inward parts of our body, but to the innermost parts of our sense of being.  God also says that He will write His laws in our heart.  The question follows — What are the inward parts, and what is the heart?

            Jesus said that the very first commandment is this: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul..." (Mk. 12:30).  Here we see two different parts of our being — the heart and the soul.  Obviously each of these also has parts, for the command is to love the Lord with all (the parts of) our heart, and all (the parts of) our soul!  These are both "inward parts" of our being and not outward physical parts of our body.  The three main parts or divisions of man are body, soul, and spirit.  Yet each of these has many parts!  It is easy to realize that the body has many parts, but most people have not considered that the soul and the spirit must also have parts!  And there are parts beyond these which are called the "hidden parts."  "Behold, Thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part Thou shalt make me to know wisdom" (Ps. 51:6).  According to the intent of this passage, and others, the word "heart" does not refer to the physical organ located in our chest that pumps blood through our body.  A study of the use of this word in the scriptures will show this to be true.  The heart in scripture is the interior portion of a person.  In the Old Testament, the word "heart" comes from the Hebrew word leb.  According to Strong's Concordance, that word is used very widely for the feelings, the will, the intellect, and the nature.  That word is taken from a prime root word meaning "to be enclosed." It has reference to the deepest and most profound interior of a person!

            As to the heart, it is deeper than the mere mind or soul.  With my mind I can think about many things, both good and evil.   All kinds of thoughts can present themselves in the mind!  Often these thoughts do not represent the kind of person we really are.  A wicked thought might pass through my mind, but that does not mean that I would seriously consider committing any crime or doing some evil.  Many of our thoughts are mundane and can be easily dismissed.  But when the "heart" thinks the wise man said, "As a man thinketh in his heart, SO IS HE!" (Prov. 23:7).  Many scriptures speak of the thoughts of the heart! The heart also has "purposes," "intents," "emotions," and "conscience."

            One of the greatest mysteries in the word of God is found in Ezekiel 36:25-30 wherein we read, "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them...I will also save you from all your uncleannesses..."  This wonderful passage teaches us that there is more than one heart.   There is an old heart and there is a new heart!   The old heart is the deepest part of being in the life of old Adam.  The new heart is the deepest part of being of Christ in our spirit!

The old heart is the deepest and innermost sense of being, of the natural man.  This heart is the root of all human expression and identity.  It is also the well-spring of what is called "human nature."  Of that nature Jesus said, "Are ye so without understanding also?  Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.  All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mk. 7:18-23).  Our hearts are a bad neighborhood that we dare not walk around in alone!  You don't think there is a wickedness of the human heart that lies deeper than the outward sins of the flesh?  Then consider and meditate for a while on these significant words of Jesus, "I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Mat. 5:28).

            That the "bottomless pit" or the "abyss" in the symbolisms of scripture portrays the human heart is beautifully confirmed by the words of the prophet David.   David, in describing the wickedness of man, says, "Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity...they encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?   They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search (plumbing the depths): both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart, IS DEEP" (Ps. 64:2-6).  The heart is a deep!  The Hebrew word here for deep is amoq meaning not only something deep, but "deeper than" other things.  It is used in Job 11:8 of that which is "deeper than hell."  Again we find it used in this way, "He discovereth deep (amoq) things out of darkness" (Job 12:22).  Then in Ecclesiastes 7:24 it refers to "that which is far off, and exceeding deep, who can find it out?"  In all these passages there is a suggestion of both the words of Jeremiah and David that the heart of man is not only very deep, but that the depths are unfathomable — beyond the comprehension of any other than God Himself!

            We must conclude, then, that the heart of man is the very lowest realm of man's being!  Sometimes the Lord's elect fail to see that our natural heart is just like anyone else's Adamic heart, and every son of God must clearly see, understand, and overcome the very basest things and powers that lie hidden, concealed, and buried in the unseen depths of the old, natural heart.  Thank God, Jesus holds the key, it is He who opens the abyss, and brings forth the revelation of all that is lurking there!  As John in spirit beheld the scene, the Lord Jesus, receiving the key, opened the abyss and "there arose smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace"   (Rev. 9:2).  That this bottomless pit is the heart of man is further confirmed by the words of Hosea who wrote of backsliding Israel, "they consider not in their hearts that I remember all their wickedness...for they have made ready their heart as an oven" (Hos. 7:6).  The word here translated "oven" is, in the Hebrew, "furnace."  We see, then, the bottomless pit identified as a furnace in the words of the apostle John, and the heart of man identified as the furnace by the prophet Hosea, and from this furnace of man's heart rolls billows of smoke!

             Yet, Jesus also said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" (Mt. 5:8).  Pure in heart!

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 04:01:57 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 03:07:45 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 10:14:21 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2011, 08:34:10 AMAnd He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  Lk 23:43

The comma isn't in the Greek text.

The punctuation isn't in any of the Greek.  All the punctuation in the Bible is placed there by the  translators.

So as I translate that sentence, do I put the comma after truly, as in all the other statements Jesus starts with truly?

Or do I break the pattern and put it after today--truly I say to you today, [I was lying every other day]?

Not break the pattern. Just a pattern you don't like. Changing the position of the comma doesn't imply Jesus lied every other day.

Using yout line of reasoning there is a possibility Jesus was lying in the verse below because He didn't use truly.
^ACVMatt 5
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness abounds more than of the scholars and Pharisees, ye will, no, not enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

Im telling you the truth today --implies that on another day I did not tell you truth.

It would be a stupid thing to say if you don't wish to imply that.

It's the sort of phrase you might hear in police interviews.

And, like I said every other time Jesus said Truly, they put the comma after Truly.

So you need a better argument than that.  Because they are being consistent.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 20, 2011, 03:18:17 PM


Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.


One could place commas all through that sentence without changing its context.

The meaning of the verse can change.

Look at the comma and how the meaning of the verse changes. (first variation has no comma)

#1 "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#2 "Truly I say to you ,  today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#3 "Truly I say to you today ,  you shall be with Me in Paradise"

Variation #1 is just very unclear. (the original Greek)
Variation #2 "I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise today"
Variation #3 "I'm telling you right now (today) that you will be in paradise with me sometime in the future."

I see no difference at all.
I see no difference, at all.
I, see no difference, at all.

Writers may use commas to induce breath upon a reader.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 04:07:29 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 20, 2011, 03:18:17 PM


Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.


One could place commas all through that sentence without changing its context.

The meaning of the verse can change.

Look at the comma and how the meaning of the verse changes. (first variation has no comma)

#1 "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#2 "Truly I say to you ,  today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#3 "Truly I say to you today ,  you shall be with Me in Paradise"

Variation #1 is just very unclear. (the original Greek)
Variation #2 "I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise today"
Variation #3 "I'm telling you right now (today) that you will be in paradise with me sometime in the future."

LOL

Give it up.  It doesn't say 'sometime in the future.'  It says TODAY [you shall be with me in Paradise].

I'm sure if Jesus wished to say something else, he would have said it.

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 03:20:05 PM
He says, don't touch me,

True. But He also adds because I have NOT ascended yet.
This also means He couldn't have led the prisoners to heaven simply because He hasn't been to heaven yet.
Neither could He have sent them ahead because:

^ACVJohn 3
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

This verse can only be true if the prisoners have been led to heaven by Jesus after this verse was written.
Clearly the verse wasn't written when Jesus was in the grave.

Quoteyet after that he is  touching, eating, and enjoying companionship with his disciples.

True. Obviously He already has ascended at this point.

Beautiful post,Beloved!

   Luke 2;35   This child is due to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel,and to be a sign that will be spoken against.

    ;so the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed" And a sword will pierce your own soul,too.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 04:19:37 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 03:20:05 PM
He says, don't touch me,

True. But He also adds because I have NOT ascended yet.
This also means He couldn't have led the prisoners to heaven simply because He hasn't been to heaven yet.
Neither could He have sent them ahead because:

^ACVJohn 3
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

This verse can only be true if the prisoners have been led to heaven by Jesus after this verse was written.
Clearly the verse wasn't written when Jesus was in the grave.

Quoteyet after that he is  touching, eating, and enjoying companionship with his disciples.

True. Obviously He already has ascended at this point.

He has not ascended yet in his resurrected body which is what he wears as high priest.

This does not preclude him ascending as the Spirit.

Just imagine the Christ entering the place of the dead, how glorious that would be!

These are the OT souls who have been waiting for him.

You see, when he ascends at the end of 40 days, the clouds [of witnesses] are already there to receive him.


And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  Acts 1:9

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 20, 2011, 04:10:53 PM


I see no difference at all.
I see no difference, at all.
I, see no difference, at all.

Writers may use commas to induce breath upon a reader.

Comma's have many uses.
http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp   -> Rule 1
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000068.htm
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm
Etc.

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 04:26:48 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 04:19:37 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 03:20:05 PM
He says, don't touch me,

True. But He also adds because I have NOT ascended yet.
This also means He couldn't have led the prisoners to heaven simply because He hasn't been to heaven yet.
Neither could He have sent them ahead because:

^ACVJohn 3
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

This verse can only be true if the prisoners have been led to heaven by Jesus after this verse was written.
Clearly the verse wasn't written when Jesus was in the grave.

Quoteyet after that he is  touching, eating, and enjoying companionship with his disciples.

True. Obviously He already has ascended at this point.

He has not ascended yet in his resurrected body which is what he wears as high priest.

Is a spirit a human?

Quote from: wwACVJohn 3
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

This verse can only be true if the prisoners have been led to heaven by Jesus after this verse was written.
Clearly the verse wasn't written when Jesus was in the grave.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom but spirit can--the spirits of just men made perfect. [Heb 12]

So can flesh and bone, the resurrected Christ.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 04:34:48 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 04:26:48 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 04:19:37 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 03:20:05 PM
He says, don't touch me,

True. But He also adds because I have NOT ascended yet.
This also means He couldn't have led the prisoners to heaven simply because He hasn't been to heaven yet.
Neither could He have sent them ahead because:

^ACVJohn 3
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

This verse can only be true if the prisoners have been led to heaven by Jesus after this verse was written.
Clearly the verse wasn't written when Jesus was in the grave.

Quoteyet after that he is  touching, eating, and enjoying companionship with his disciples.

True. Obviously He already has ascended at this point.

He has not ascended yet in his resurrected body which is what he wears as high priest.

Is a spirit a human?

There is a spirit of man, but Jesus has the Spirit of God.

...at that moment the curtain of the temple was torn into from top to bottom.The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies

  of many holy people who had died were raised to life,they came out of the tombs,and after Jesus resurrection they went into the Holy city...

   and appeared to many people

17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

18 When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train; you received gifts for men, even for the rebellious--that you, O LORD God, might dwell there. Psalm 68



Psalm 47:5 God has ascended amid shouts of joy, the LORD amid the sounding of trumpets.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 04:32:16 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 20, 2011, 04:10:53 PM


I see no difference at all.
I see no difference, at all.
I, see no difference, at all.

Writers may use commas to induce breath upon a reader.

Comma's have many uses.
http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp   -> Rule 1
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000068.htm
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm
Etc.

Those rules are in no particular order.
In no particular order are those rules.

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 04:12:55 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 04:07:29 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 20, 2011, 03:18:17 PM


Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me, in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Truly, I say to you, today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.


One could place commas all through that sentence without changing its context.

The meaning of the verse can change.

Look at the comma and how the meaning of the verse changes. (first variation has no comma)

#1 "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#2 "Truly I say to you ,  today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#3 "Truly I say to you today ,  you shall be with Me in Paradise"

Variation #1 is just very unclear. (the original Greek)
Variation #2 "I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise today"
Variation #3 "I'm telling you right now (today) that you will be in paradise with me sometime in the future."

LOL

Give it up.

That wise. What you and beloved claim is against English (and Dutch) grammer rules. Don't believe me. Just ask someone that teaches English at a uni nearby.
You should make your case using Greek. Puntuation and spaces aren't inspired

QuoteIt doesn't say 'sometime in the future.'  It says TODAY [you shall be with me in Paradise].

It depends on the comma.
The exact place of the comma is whole different discussion.

The old lady collected all sorts of things: silver, paper, hats, clocks and tablecloths.
The old lady collected all sorts of things: silver paper, hats, clocks and tablecloths.
The old lady collected all sorts of things: silver, paper hats, clocks and tablecloths.

Eats shoots and leaves.
Eats, shoots and leaves.

"Goats cheese salad ingredients: lettuce, tomato, goats, cheese"

Little bit about me.
My interests include:
Cooking, dogs, music and sports.
---> Does the red comma only adds a pause?
---> No it isn't about hot dogs  :winkgrin:

:Yeahright:

When Jesus opens the scroll, the Old Testament saints are already there as witnesses.


4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.  [Rev 5]





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gae-n0Pb7Q

Quote from: wwIt depends on the comma.
The exact place of the comma is whole different discussion.

Do you have any idea how offensive it is for you to lecture me on my native language?  :icon_king:

And, do you think I have no education in my native language?

I understand what you are saying.  But, you refuse to look at what I am saying.

You want to change one comma in the book to change a meaning to something you like better.

Why limit yourself to one comma?   Rewrite the whole book!

What the translators did in this case is entirely consistent with what they did in every other case.

They followed the rules of English.

They followed the meaning of the words and the meaning of the context.

Jesus is saying, Today you will be with me in Paradise.

If he meant to say something else, he would have said it.

Off topic--I also believe all the original translators were inspired.  They did what they did under inspiration of God.

I don't know how else they could have done it.

To take the message heavenly — isn't Jesus the Day ?


"In Me, you will be in paradise!"

Yep!   There He is, in the midst of the garden....

Ahhh...
But this time — we're not hedged in!

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [Mat 16:17]


"prevail against"

G2729
κατισχύω
katischuō
kat-is-khoo'-o
From G2596 and G2480; to overpower: - prevail (against).

The gates of hell have no strength against the ekklesia.  That means that we can go in and out at will.  The overcomers will preach, as Jesus did, to those in Hades, and lead them out.



Therefore you gave them into the hand of their enemies, who made them suffer. And in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors who saved them from the hand of their enemies.  Neh 9:27


Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Hmmm....
Sounds like a ladder!

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 20, 2011, 07:15:36 PM


Hmmm....
Sounds like a ladder!

:thumbsup:


51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

--John 1



[note: the commas are the same as in 'today you will be with me in Paradise'.]

ascending and descending...Hmmm...

Sounds like water, clouds and rain!

There are just so many levels to this.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 20, 2011, 07:46:28 PM


ascending and descending...Hmmm...

Sounds like water, clouds and rain!

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,[Heb 12:1]



25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.  Jude 1

I saw another strong angel coming down out of heavens, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire; and he had in his hand a little book which was open. (Rev 10:1-2)

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
(Eph 1:18-23)


But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
(Eph 4:7-16)


Oh Lord, my God, when I with awesome wonder, consider all the things Thy hands have made,
I see the stars, I hear the roaring thunder
Thy works through out the universe displayed
Then sings my soul, My Savior, God to Thee
How Great Thou Art!

The sun rises and the dew leaps into the wind, the mists of the morning, greeting the new day
The night falls and the stars of ten thousand galaxies fill the sky, bearing witness to the glory that transcends our understanding

"Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? "On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? "Or who enclosed the sea with doors When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb; When I made a cloud its garment And thick darkness its swaddling band, And I placed boundaries on it And set a bolt and doors, And I said, 'Thus far you shall come, but no farther; And here shall your proud waves stop'? "Have you ever in your life commanded the morning, And caused the dawn to know its place, That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?
(Job 38:3-13)

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:32-36)

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God........... And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
(Rom 8:18-34)

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2011, 05:18:40 PM

Quote from: wwIt depends on the comma.
The exact place of the comma is whole different discussion.

Do you have any idea how offensive it is for you to lecture me on my native language?  :icon_king:

You started lecturing me on your language. I just wrote the comma isn't there. I verify things. In this case it want that hard because the usage of the comma
in English and Dutch is very similar. Maybe exactly the say. (I didn't check every rule)
Besides of that I wrote about over two years ago: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/apologetic_support/soul_sleep_4791.msg49918.html#msg49918
I only had two options. Agree with you. With would mean you ask me to lie. Or to show artcles that were written by independant people?

QuoteAnd, do you think I have no education in my native language?

I never look down/up at any level of education. I'm usually don't care about such things. But in some cases the comma is to important to ignore. Especially if it's used to prove something.

QuoteI understand what you are saying.  But, you refuse to look at what I am saying.
You want to change one comma in the book to change a meaning to something you like better.

It was used this verse as proof. In such cases imo we should look deeper.

QuoteWhy limit yourself to one comma?   Rewrite the whole book!

That was done centuries ago.

QuoteWhat the translators did in this case is entirely consistent with what they did in every other case.
They followed the rules of English.

They should have followed the rules of Greek.

QuoteThey followed the meaning of the words and the meaning of the context.

What if the context is doctrine?

QuoteJesus is saying, Today you will be with me in Paradise.
If he meant to say something else, he would have said it.

You say A.
I say B.
Who's right?
According to Greek grammar I'm right.
http://www.tstl4sda.net/saranaclake/paradise.htm  --> Especially read point 3

51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you hereafter, ye shall see heaven open... NOPE





And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise....NOPE

Was Jesus in paradise that very day? What and where is paradise?

 paradise is the garden,where both the tokogae and tree of life are. what better example of  death in flesh due to sin and eternal life in spirit d/t

  the tol partaken of andn granted access to in Jesus name

Quote from: CHB on October 22, 2011, 04:50:01 PM
Was Jesus in paradise that very day? What and where is paradise?

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.  [2 Cor 12]



Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Quote from: CHB on October 22, 2011, 04:50:01 PM
Was Jesus in paradise that very day? What and where is paradise?

Paradise is Eden ,a Garden, , likened to an enclosed WOMB, the womb being likened to our MIND ~The soul is also a Garden, [your mind\Heart} its also the TREE of Life who dwells in your mind, the Kingdom of God, New Jerusalem,The Throne of Life # HE is the TODAY who is the Paradise within our mind when we are drawn to see the LIFE who is [ Inus]#

Sgs 4:12   A garden inclosed [is] my sister, [my] spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed. 

Job 8:16   He [is] green [ ALL LIFE IS GRASS= GREEN]before the sun, and his branch shooteth forth in his garden. [ WITHIN OUR MIND]

Sgs 4:16 ¶ Awake, O north wind;[ Judgment Unto LIFE comes from the NORTH]] and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, [that] the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits. 

Isa 1:30 For ye shall be as an oak 424 whose leaf 5929 fadeth 5034, and as a garden 1593 that hath no water 4325.[ SOKEN AFTER THE CARNAL MIND THATS WITHERS AND FADES AS THE GLORY OF THE WOMAN \soul~

51:3 ¶ For the LORD shall comfort Zion:[ we are ZION] he will comfort all her waste places[ death]]; and he will make her wilderness [ carnal mind]like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. 


Isa 51:4 ¶ Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

Isa 58:11   And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. 


Isa 58:12   And [they that shall be] of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. 


Whos this Mustard seed placed in the GARDEN[ our mind] who became a GRET TREE[ Christ = The TREEOF LIFE IN US ~ dear one you in PARADISE AS he dwells in you~

I learned something new today....
There were punctuation marks in the ancient Greek texts.
Article: http://www.elihubooks.com/data/topical_index/000/000/315/EOP_3_Punctuation_in_early_Greek_NT_texts_Stafford.pdf (http://www.elihubooks.com/data/topical_index/000/000/315/EOP_3_Punctuation_in_early_Greek_NT_texts_Stafford.pdf)
Main site: http://www.elihubooks.com/content/topical_index.php (http://www.elihubooks.com/content/topical_index.php)


Page 2.
There are three marks [or, 'points'], a period [or, 'a finished point'], a semi-colon/colon [or,
'a middle point'], and a comma. On the one hand, the period mark is a sign for a complete
expression, but a semi-colon/colon [or, 'a middle point'] sign is breathed according to those
Page 3.
for a shorter pause.9

Page 19
As the response from Rome states clearly, the color of the lower point in
Codex B in Luke 23:43 after the Greek word for "today" is brown, not black or darker as is the
ink of the second hand or the even later scribal corrector.
Even if it were a mark by one of the other two scribes, it would still serve as an indication of the
belief of the scribe identified as to how the sense of the text was understood at the time it was
corrected. But since the point is apparently of the original "brown" color, then the mark after
"today" in Codex B in Luke 23:43 should be included as part of the good reasons which indicate
the correct understanding of Luke 23:43 according to one of the best available texts.


The way I read the above:[/size][/color][/font]

I say to you today; you shall be.....[/size][/color][/font]

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 04:59:36 PM

Quote from: CHB on October 22, 2011, 04:50:01 PM
Was Jesus in paradise that very day? What and where is paradise?

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

I see no time indication. It doesn't mention it happend before or after the 3 days.

Who's to say that paradise is in the mind? What would be the purpose of Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in the womb of my/your/our mind? These men were dying together. Jesus was looking into his eyes and comforting him even as they shared their agony. I think it is more than a "story" being told. I think Jesus' words to the thief were shared in the deepest bond that could ever be formed, as they died together. It sometimes strikes me as trite when we examine the words in such a detached theological manner. Whatever womb they went into, they went into together, at the word of our Lord to a friend, in a friendship forged in the fires of death. Therefore, I believe, that this paradise was not in anybodies mind. I do not claim to fully understand what paradise is, but our speculations should include all of the scriptures and due consideration for the context of the actual events as well as the words.

Quote from: eaglesway on October 22, 2011, 05:33:41 PM
Who's to say that paradise is in the mind? What would be the purpose of Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in the womb of my/your/our mind? These men were dying together. Jesus was looking into his eyes and comforting him even as they shared their agony. I think it is more than a "story" being told. I think Jesus' words to the thief were shared in the deepest bond that could ever be formed, as they died together. It sometimes strikes me as trite when we examine the words in such a detached theological manner. Whatever womb they went into, they went into together, at the word of our Lord to a friend, in a friendship forged in the fires of death. Therefore, I believe, that this paradise was not in anybodies mind. I do not claim to fully understand what paradise is, but our speculations should include all of the scriptures and due consideration for the context of the actual events as well as the words.

Paradise is the GARDEN of our Mind as thes criptures given I believed declared the Pattern, Today is NoT a Today~ HE IS THE TODAY who is the parda se within us when we are given to see, The Robber , purely by coincidence[NOT] to HIS RIGHT  was Given to SEE the LORD was the SON of GOD~The carnal MIND is the ROBBER,  the theif Birthed by eve, who STOLE the LIFE witnin being Christ, the CARNAL MIND being death  is the theif, the murderer, the Idolator, the false prophet et all~ HIS comfort was TO KNOW who HIS MAKER was# PEACE WITHIN#

Quote from: eaglesway on October 22, 2011, 05:33:41 PM
Who's to say that paradise is in the mind? What would be the purpose of Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in the womb of my/your/our mind? These men were dying together. Jesus was looking into his eyes and comforting him even as they shared their agony. I think it is more than a "story" being told. I think Jesus' words to the thief were shared in the deepest bond that could ever be formed, as they died together. It sometimes strikes me as trite when we examine the words in such a detached theological manner. Whatever womb they went into, they went into together, at the word of our Lord to a friend, in a friendship forged in the fires of death. Therefore, I believe, that this paradise was not in anybodies mind. I do not claim to fully understand what paradise is, but our speculations should include all of the scriptures and due consideration for the context of the actual events as well as the words.

I agree with regards to this passage, Jesus is telling the thief you will be there with me Today.  I take it very literally.  They are both going to die that day.

I see what Taffy is saying as a more general application to this life.  We can, as Paul did, enter paradise Today in Christ.

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 05:49:10 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on October 22, 2011, 05:33:41 PM
Who's to say that paradise is in the mind? What would be the purpose of Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in the womb of my/your/our mind? These men were dying together. Jesus was looking into his eyes and comforting him even as they shared their agony. I think it is more than a "story" being told. I think Jesus' words to the thief were shared in the deepest bond that could ever be formed, as they died together. It sometimes strikes me as trite when we examine the words in such a detached theological manner. Whatever womb they went into, they went into together, at the word of our Lord to a friend, in a friendship forged in the fires of death. Therefore, I believe, that this paradise was not in anybodies mind. I do not claim to fully understand what paradise is, but our speculations should include all of the scriptures and due consideration for the context of the actual events as well as the words.

I agree with regards to this passage, Jesus is telling the thief you will be there with me Today.  I take it very literally.  They are both going to die that day.

I see what Taffy is saying as a more general application to this life.  We can, as Paul did, enter paradise Today in Christ.

Yes Molly, its same pattern unto all. The robber Died as symbol of the carnal mind perishing but alive to Christ who is the LIVE within the MIND\HEART~, I see a Spiritual Purpose behind everything Physical~

Quote from: CHB on October 22, 2011, 04:50:01 PMWas Jesus in paradise that very day?

Depends if want to follow doctrine or Scripture. :wink:
Doctrine: He went to paradise that very day.
Scripture: Just states the thief would go to paradise. Could be that day. Could be 1000 years later.

John 3 [ACV]
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

This was written long after crucifixion. And still it claims no man, except Jesus, went to heaven.
No man includes the thief.

Also note the preceding verse:
Luke 23 [ACV]
42 And he said to Jesus, Remember me, Lord, when thou come into thy kingdom.

Did Jesus' kingdom start that day?

The thief was hanging on the cross and was scared of not going to paradise. So he asked Jesus (remember me). Jesus basicly just said: Don't wory you will be with me in paradise.

QuoteJohn 3 [ACV]
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

All those who are Him ascend and descend, its say NO MAN, Man is often a Metaphor one who is of the carnal MIND#For those born of Him ascended with HIM in Life[ Heavens=HISMIND] as HE FIRST descended into our Joining us In our Death,

Psa 139:8   If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there]. 

Quote from: Taffy on October 22, 2011, 06:56:30 PM

QuoteJohn 3 [ACV]
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

All those who are Him ascend and descend, its say NO MAN, Man is often a Metaphor one who is of the carnal MIND#For those born of Him ascended with HIM in Life[ Heavens=HISMIND] as HE FIRST descended into our Joining us In our Death,

Psa 139:8   If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].

Taffy  :thumbsup:

We are born from above.

WE ARE CITIZENS OF ZION, born from above, our citrizenship registered by the Lord himself.  This is why David was not allowed to take the census.



1 His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2 The LORD loves the gates of Zion
More than all the other dwelling places of Jacob.
3 Glorious things are spoken of you,
O city of God.
                         Selah.

4 "I shall mention Rahab and Babylon among those who know Me;
Behold, Philistia and Tyre with [d]Ethiopia:
'This one was born there.'"

5 But of Zion it shall be said, "This one and that one were born in her";
And the Most High Himself will establish her.
6 The LORD will count when He registers the peoples,
"This one was born there."
                         Selah.

7 Then those who sing as well as those who play the flutes shall say,
"All my springs of joy are in you."

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 07:17:15 PM
WE ARE CITIZENS OF ZION, born from above, our citrizenship registered by the Lord himself.  This is why David was not allowed to take the census.



1 His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2 The LORD loves the gates of Zion
More than all the other dwelling places of Jacob.
3 Glorious things are spoken of you,
O city of God.
                         Selah.

4 "I shall mention Rahab and Babylon among those who know Me;
Behold, Philistia and Tyre with [d]Ethiopia:
'This one was born there.'"

5 But of Zion it shall be said, "This one and that one were born in her";
And the Most High Himself will establish her.
6 The LORD will count when He registers the peoples,
"This one was born there."
                         Selah.

7 Then those who sing as well as those who play the flutes shall say,
"All my springs of joy are in you."

Awake from thy SLUMBER  , Rise from your BED  You Children of ZION~

Isa 52:1 ¶ Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. 


Isa 52:2   Shake thyself from the dust; arise, [and] sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

 yeah, 'tell NO man' and 'flesh and blood did not reveal this to you"=unlawful to utter;  the creature that was subjected to vanity...is the creature that is set free into

  the glorious freedom of the sons of God...that creature[new man in Christ] was with Him from the beginning...in the Lamb slain before the foundation

  of the world was laid. He descended from heaven and ascends /returns to the Father.

   

Quote from: Taffy on October 22, 2011, 07:32:07 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 07:17:15 PM
WE ARE CITIZENS OF ZION, born from above, our citrizenship registered by the Lord himself.  This is why David was not allowed to take the census.



1 His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2 The LORD loves the gates of Zion
More than all the other dwelling places of Jacob.
3 Glorious things are spoken of you,
O city of God.
                         Selah.

4 "I shall mention Rahab and Babylon among those who know Me;
Behold, Philistia and Tyre with [d]Ethiopia:
'This one was born there.'"

5 But of Zion it shall be said, "This one and that one were born in her";
And the Most High Himself will establish her.
6 The LORD will count when He registers the peoples,
"This one was born there."
                         Selah.

7 Then those who sing as well as those who play the flutes shall say,
"All my springs of joy are in you."

Awake from thy SLUMBER  , Rise from your BED  You Children of ZION~

Isa 52:1  Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. 


Isa 52:2   Shake thyself from the dust; arise, [and] sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.   :bgdance: :bgdance:

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 07:39:25 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 22, 2011, 07:32:07 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 07:17:15 PM
WE ARE CITIZENS OF ZION, born from above, our citrizenship registered by the Lord himself.  This is why David was not allowed to take the census.



1 His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2 The LORD loves the gates of Zion
More than all the other dwelling places of Jacob.
3 Glorious things are spoken of you,
O city of God.
                         Selah.

4 "I shall mention Rahab and Babylon among those who know Me;
Behold, Philistia and Tyre with [d]Ethiopia:
'This one was born there.'"

5 But of Zion it shall be said, "This one and that one were born in her";
And the Most High Himself will establish her.
6 The LORD will count when He registers the peoples,
"This one was born there."
                         Selah.

7 Then those who sing as well as those who play the flutes shall say,
"All my springs of joy are in you."

Awake from thy SLUMBER  , Rise from your BED  You Children of ZION~

Isa 52:1  Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. 


Isa 52:2   Shake thyself from the dust; arise, [and] sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.   :bgdance: :bgdance:

Sing Molly~ :girlheart: :girlheart: :girlheart: :girlheart: :girlheart: :girlheart: :girlheart: :girlheart: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sheila on October 22, 2011, 07:35:52 PM
yeah, 'tell NO man' and 'flesh and blood did not reveal this to you"=unlawful to utter;  the creature that was subjected to vanity...is the creature that is set free into

  the glorious freedom of the sons of God...that creature[new man in Christ] was with Him from the beginning...in the Lamb slain before the foundation

  of the world was laid. He descended from heaven and ascends /returns to the Father.

   

:HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 07:06:42 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 22, 2011, 06:56:30 PM

QuoteJohn 3 [ACV]
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

All those who are Him ascend and descend, its say NO MAN, Man is often a Metaphor one who is of the carnal MIND#For those born of Him ascended with HIM in Life[ Heavens=HISMIND] as HE FIRST descended into our Joining us In our Death,

Psa 139:8   If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].

Taffy  :thumbsup:

We are born from above.

Off-topic

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 08:38:52 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 07:06:42 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 22, 2011, 06:56:30 PM

QuoteJohn 3 [ACV]
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

All those who are Him ascend and descend, its say NO MAN, Man is often a Metaphor one who is of the carnal MIND#For those born of Him ascended with HIM in Life[ Heavens=HISMIND] as HE FIRST descended into our Joining us In our Death,

Psa 139:8   If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].

Taffy  :thumbsup:

We are born from above.

Off-topic

Come the Lord WW, NOTHING is off Topic ~Selah~ :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 08:38:52 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 07:06:42 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 22, 2011, 06:56:30 PM

QuoteJohn 3 [ACV]
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

All those who are Him ascend and descend, its say NO MAN, Man is often a Metaphor one who is of the carnal MIND#For those born of Him ascended with HIM in Life[ Heavens=HISMIND] as HE FIRST descended into our Joining us In our Death,

Psa 139:8   If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].

Taffy  :thumbsup:

We are born from above.

Off-topic

You are the one who started it by pretending the thief could not have ascended with Jesus into paradise at his death because of your limited reading of John 3:13,

But keep reading--that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life. [John 3:15]

Quote from: Taffy on October 22, 2011, 06:56:30 PM

QuoteJohn 3 [ACV]
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

All those who are Him ascend and descend, its say NO MAN, Man is often a Metaphor one who is of the carnal MIND#For those born of Him ascended with HIM in Life[ Heavens=HISMIND] as HE FIRST descended into our Joining us In our Death,

"often" could be. But not in this case unless you claim Jesus has a carnal mind too.

And no man  has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven
And
no man  has ascended into heaven, except the man who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven



Just for once just plainly answer my questions in a decent way. (Addressing everyone in this thread. Not just you Taffy)
Not the usual avoiding the real question. Replies with off-topic verses. Or circular reasoning.
If "you" don't know just say so. That's a honest and very acceptable answer for me.
I once thought people on this forum were different from many other forums that just keep repeating doctrine. Unfortunately I start seeing red lines of doctrine on this forum that seem kill many many discussion that otherwise could be useful for all.
I have my views on this topic an for example trinity which I think affects this thread also. Of course I feel strongly that my views (based on english and greek) are correct. Others have opposite views they think are correct.
I could be very wrong. In that case it should be easy to prove me wrong. Not with opinions but with verses. And in case of contradictions Greek and/or Hebrew overrules all translations.
If someone wants to give a on-topic reply please do so. If it's just a continuation of the smoke and mirrors game then just ignore me as I'll ignore this thread.

A great part of this forum's potential is killed by this kind of behavior. That benefits nobody except those who only seek confirmation of what they hope is true.

Quote:eeew:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 09:11:31 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 22, 2011, 06:56:30 PM

QuoteJohn 3 [ACV]
13 And no man has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

All those who are Him ascend and descend, its say NO MAN, Man is often a Metaphor one who is of the carnal MIND#For those born of Him ascended with HIM in Life[ Heavens=HISMIND] as HE FIRST descended into our Joining us In our Death,

"often" could be. But not in this case unless you claim Jesus has a carnal mind too.

And no man  has ascended into heaven, except he who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven
And
no man  has ascended into heaven, except the man who came down out of heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven



Just for once just plainly answer my questions in a decent way. (Addressing everyone in this thread. Not just you Taffy)
Not the usual avoiding the real question. Replies with off-topic verses. Or circular reasoning.
If "you" don't know just say so. That's a honest and very acceptable answer for me.
I once thought people on this forum were different from many other forums that just keep repeating doctrine. Unfortunately I start seeing red lines of doctrine on this forum that seem kill many many discussion that otherwise could be useful for all.
I have my views on this topic an for example trinity which I think affects this thread also. Of course I feel strongly that my views (based on english and greek) are correct. Others have opposite views they think are correct.
I could be very wrong. In that case it should be easy to prove me wrong. Not with opinions but with verses. And in case of contradictions Greek and/or Hebrew overrules all translations.
If someone wants to give a on-topic reply please do so. If it's just a continuation of the smoke and mirrors game then just ignore me as I'll ignore this thread.

A great part of this forum's potential is killed by this kind of behavior. That benefits nobody except those who only seek confirmation of what they hope is true.

Quote:eeew:

WW your failing to Divide the EARTHLY man from the Heavenly MAN   theres the Earthly MAN   The corrupted MAN from Beneath, THEN the Spiritual MAN born from Above, Christ is the WAY The TRUTH and The Life # we follow that pattern From the Earthly Man unto the Spirtual MAN, which is the OLD MAN to the NEW MAN :icon_flower:

WW. theres Nothing to PROVE  to others, as the REVELATION comes from within through HIM in US# if you hear you will LISTEN, ITS HIS VOICE we HEAR not others. ~ Theres Nothing to PROVE Only unto yourself~ Let each man be convicted in HIS OWN HEART~friend we are miles apart in our understanding  but that fine as no two folk are the same~ :icon_flower:

The one who comes down from heaven is the one born from above.


3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

--Rev 1


2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.  Rev 21

Quote from: Taffy on October 22, 2011, 09:36:02 PM
WW. theres Nothing to PROVE  to others, as the REVELATION comes from within through HIM in US# if you hear you will LISTEN, ITS HIS VOICE we HEAR not others. ~ Theres Nothing to PROVE Only unto yourself~ Let each man be convicted in HIS OWN HEART~friend we are miles apart in our understanding  but that fine as no two folk are the same~ :icon_flower:

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again [born from above], he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?  [John 3]



12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1

Quote from: wwA great part of this forum's potential is killed by this kind of behavior. That benefits nobody except those who only seek confirmation of what they hope is true.

ww, I am praying that he give you a heart of flesh so that you can receive him.

Until then, you remain a master of Israel.

Just take a leap of faith. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 10:15:32 PM

Quote from: wwA great part of this forum's potential is killed by this kind of behavior. That benefits nobody except those who only seek confirmation of what they hope is true.

ww, I am praying that he give you a heart of flesh so that you can receive him.

Until then, you remain a master of Israel.

Just take a leap of faith. :HeartThrob:

AMEN!!!!! :icon_flower:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 09:11:31 PM

"often" could be. But not in this case unless you claim Jesus has a carnal mind too.

The son of man was lifted up likened to the bronze serpent on a pole.  If the serpent is symbolic for the carnal mind, then maybe He did have a carnal mind.  Not that He sinned, but He still said not my will but yours be done.  the crown of thorns on His head also.

Quote from: redhotmagma on October 22, 2011, 10:18:45 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 09:11:31 PM

"often" could be. But not in this case unless you claim Jesus has a carnal mind too.

The son of man was lifted up likened to the bronze serpent on a pole.  If the serpent is symbolic for the carnal mind, then maybe He did have a carnal mind.  Not that He sinned, but He still said not my will but yours be done.  the crown of thorns on His head also.

No HE didnt~As the god of this WORLD[ Carnal Mind}, The prince had NOTHING IN HIM# He Joined  us in our Death[ The Mind of the SERPENT, The canal Mind KNOWN  as the Flesh- ]

We read i When Im Raised from the EARTH "I will DRAW[ Drag off= The flesh= carnal Mind of MEN unto HIM~ He bore the Seperation due to the carnal MIND[ Flesh] HAVING his FLESH[ a picture of HIM sufferring the DRAGGING OFF our carnal mind] torn from HIS BODY so we are Healed By his Stripes ~

Becoming, If you wish SIN for US[ SERPENT] is Not HIM partaking in SIN[ seperation]


In whom the god of this world[ carnal mind] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. #

Shalom~

ex; Him turning the tables........

     disobediant sons of God taking wives for themselves/namely all who they chose=man's thoughts evil all the time.........dragon floodwaters,

     that destroy all flesh/save 8 souls.

     obediant son of God come down from heaven/granted to have life in Himself=free gift of righteousness given to whom He please.. namely all whom He chose

      rivers of fire from beneath the throne.[spirits of just men made perfect=new heart new spirit]

     to this day..you may test the spirits in this regard...'that the word of God come in flesh']

carnal=flesh, He came in the flesh, He had a mind and a will (not mine but yours be done).  He was tempted in all the same ways we are, yet did not sin.  He always yielded to the Father.

Thats why I think satan may not be the carnal mind, but the vehicle for satan

yep,

     sin in the flesh condemned....no man ever hated his own flesh. For the little children were partakers of flesh and blood, and He likwise

NIV   The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
NASB   For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
NLT   If your sinful nature controls your mind, there is death. But if the Holy Spirit controls your mind, there is life and peace.
MSG   Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life.
BBE   For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
AMP   Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
NRSV   To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
NKJV   For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Here and the next verse Romans 8:7 are the only place I've found the term carnal mind.  In this sense I'd say no Jesus did not have a carnal mind, and I think that may be more likely what people are referring to when they say carnal mind, He didn't have His mind set toward the flesh. 

Quote from: redhotmagma on October 23, 2011, 12:36:22 AM
NIV   The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
NASB   For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
NLT   If your sinful nature controls your mind, there is death. But if the Holy Spirit controls your mind, there is life and peace.
MSG   Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life.
BBE   For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
AMP   Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
NRSV   To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
NKJV   For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Here and the next verse Romans 8:7 are the only place I've found the term carnal mind.  In this sense I'd say no Jesus did not have a carnal mind, and I think that may be more likely what people are referring to when they say carnal mind, He didn't have His mind set toward the flesh.

look up the word Flesh[ Sarx] it means Carnally Minded= we are No longer FLESH but Spirit~

   1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers
the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or
relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh)
whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart
from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
probably from the base of 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e.
(strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body
(as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is
external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human
nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or
(specially), a human being (as such):-carnal(-ly, + -ly minded),
flesh(-ly).

Well then Jesus did have a carnal mind, because He came in the flesh, the spirit of the antichrist is those that say He didn't come in the flesh.

I'm confused now Taffy, you're trying to make my point for me? 

Quote from: redhotmagma on October 23, 2011, 01:03:19 AM
   1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers
the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or
relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh)
whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart
from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
probably from the base of 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e.
(strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body
(as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is
external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human
nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or
(specially), a human being (as such):-carnal(-ly, + -ly minded),
flesh(-ly).

Well then Jesus did have a carnal mind, because He came in the flesh, the spirit of the antichrist is those that say He didn't come in the flesh.

I'm confused now Taffy, you're trying to make my point for me?

# No bud,~ the Flesh is a SYMBOL for the carnal MIND being enmity to the Spirit, the very cause of death in the Garden ~It wasnt Eves LITERAL flesh that seperated  was Her mind~ the MIND that NEEDS Tearing away, The carnal Mind is the Old man wihch perishes,[ saved as Passing throu the flame] as its the cause of SIN[ seperation] its this very Mind which persishes   in the LOF,  , The mind has to DIE for Him To LIVE, Hence we  are  cast Into the Flame[ Love]Destroying the MIND as In Baptism[ symbolic death] so we can be written in the BOOK of Life .

No Christ Did not have  a Carnal Mind as the Carnal Mind Birthed By Eve was the cause of Death , Christ was Tried as WE were But came to Fulfil HIS will and desire making them ONE~he was Carnal mind FREE, as again the god of this world being the Carnal Mind had No part In Him~

Why do you still seek so strongly to be right in your understanding of verses, individual Greek words,  and such nonsense?  :dontknow:

What part of given to you do you not understand?  

Joh 5:36  "But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.  

Joh 17:4  "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.

PAY attention!

Joh 18:9  to fulfill the word which He spoke, "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one."  

Are you really listening...  

It's all about to whom it has been given... nothing about our understanding of Verses, Greek readings and such orthodox teachings!  :2c:

I don't guess you have a new thread you'd like to start here, huh Paul? 

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/

:laugh2:

grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, and all glory be to God unto the age

study to show yourself approved, a workman that need not be ashamed


one plants, one waters, but GOD GIVES the increase 

:bigGrin:

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 05:49:10 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on October 22, 2011, 05:33:41 PM
Who's to say that paradise is in the mind? What would be the purpose of Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in the womb of my/your/our mind? These men were dying together. Jesus was looking into his eyes and comforting him even as they shared their agony. I think it is more than a "story" being told. I think Jesus' words to the thief were shared in the deepest bond that could ever be formed, as they died together. It sometimes strikes me as trite when we examine the words in such a detached theological manner. Whatever womb they went into, they went into together, at the word of our Lord to a friend, in a friendship forged in the fires of death. Therefore, I believe, that this paradise was not in anybodies mind. I do not claim to fully understand what paradise is, but our speculations should include all of the scriptures and due consideration for the context of the actual events as well as the words.

I agree with regards to this passage, Jesus is telling the thief you will be there with me Today.  I take it very literally.  They are both going to die that day.

I see what Taffy is saying as a more general application to this life.  We can, as Paul did, enter paradise Today in Christ.

I agree with all of that :o)

Paul are you talking to me?

Quote from: Taffy on October 23, 2011, 01:16:40 AM

Quote from: redhotmagma on October 23, 2011, 01:03:19 AM
   1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers
the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or
relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh)
whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart
from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
probably from the base of 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e.
(strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body
(as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is
external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human
nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or
(specially), a human being (as such):-carnal(-ly, + -ly minded),
flesh(-ly).

Well then Jesus did have a carnal mind, because He came in the flesh, the spirit of the antichrist is those that say He didn't come in the flesh.

I'm confused now Taffy, you're trying to make my point for me?

# No bud,~ the Flesh is a SYMBOL for the carnal MIND being enmity to the Spirit, the very cause of death in the Garden ~It wasnt Eves LITERAL flesh that seperated  was Her mind~ the MIND that NEEDS Tearing away, The carnal Mind is the Old man wihch perishes,[ saved as Passing throu the flame] as its the cause of SIN[ seperation] its this very Mind which persishes   in the LOF,  , The mind has to DIE for Him To LIVE, Hence we  are  cast Into the Flame[ Love]Destroying the MIND as In Baptism[ symbolic death] so we can be written in the BOOK of Life .

No Christ Did not have  a Carnal Mind as the Carnal Mind Birthed By Eve was the cause of Death , Christ was Tried as WE were But came to Fulfil HIS will and desire making them ONE~he was Carnal mind FREE, as again the god of this world being the Carnal Mind had No part In Him~

Didn't He say not my will but yours be done?  doesn't that imply He had a will that could have been contrary to Fathers?  Yet He submitted to the Fathers will.  I understand the mind has to die for Christ to live.  Isn't that what He did?  He died to His own human/flesh/carnal desire to not take the fathers cup.  He condemned sin in the flesh, and He lived.

Couldn't the god of this world having no part in HIm, mean He didn't let it win, His spirit took dominion over His mind, He only did what He saw His Father do, only does His Fathers will.  We see that in the temptation in the wilderness.  If satan is the carnal mind then He had to have it otherwise how was He tempted?  If satan isn't the carnal mind then I could see that hold up better (that He didn't have a carnal mind) because then satan was outside of Him.

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 10:15:32 PM

Quote from: wwA great part of this forum's potential is killed by this kind of behavior. That benefits nobody except those who only seek confirmation of what they hope is true.

ww, I am praying that he give you a heart of flesh so that you can receive him.

Until then, you remain a master of Israel.

Just take a leap of faith. :HeartThrob:

Clear. Nobody can answer my questions. So the faith card is played. Faith doesn't make things more or less true. Neither does the true meaning of the verse alter my faith.
My guess is that my posts/proofs aren't even read. Quick glance at best.

(http://www.buddy-icons.info/img/smile/409.gif)2 Timothy 4:3 For there will be time when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but they will accumulate teachers to themselves according to their own desires, who tickle the ear,

Bye.

I read em WW, and value your opinions/points.  That doesn't remove the fact that I and everyone else desire to see you be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

QuoteDidn't He say not my will but yours be done?  doesn't that imply He had a will that could have been contrary to Fathers?  Yet He submitted to the Fathers will.  I understand the mind has to die for Christ to live.  Isn't that what He did?  He died to His own human/flesh/carnal desire to not take the fathers cup.  He condemned sin in the flesh, and He lived.

Couldn't the god of this world having no part in HIm, mean He didn't let it win, His spirit took dominion over His mind, He only did what He saw His Father do, only does His Fathers will.  We see that in the temptation in the wilderness.  If satan is the carnal mind then He had to have it otherwise how was He tempted?  If satan isn't the carnal mind then I could see that hold up better (that He didn't have a carnal mind) because then satan was outside of Him.

:icon_flower:

Amen He did not do HIS own will but came to Do the will of His Father ,He being the SOUL of HIS father, Mind \Heart \Will and desire~ unlike Eve ,shown as OUR soul who did , SUCCUMBING TO the serpent, The Serpent likened to the Ego Had no part of Him, the god[ Father of this World being the Serpent, the serpent gave the seed to eve and she birthed the carnal Mind, Therefore Christ didnt have one ~ He was Spiritual Minded of the Holy Spirit from Birth, but subjected to the same trial\ordeal of men, HE WAS Spiritually minded not Carnally Minded, To be Carnally minded is DEATH , to be Spiritually Minded is LIFE and Peace, is how im given to see this :icon_flower:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 23, 2011, 12:23:47 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 10:15:32 PM

Quote from: wwA great part of this forum's potential is killed by this kind of behavior. That benefits nobody except those who only seek confirmation of what they hope is true.

ww, I am praying that he give you a heart of flesh so that you can receive him.

Until then, you remain a master of Israel.

Just take a leap of faith. :HeartThrob:

Clear. Nobody can answer my questions. So the faith card is played. Faith doesn't make things more or less true. Neither does the true meaning of the verse alter my faith.
My guess is that my posts/proofs aren't even read. Quick glance at best.

(http://www.buddy-icons.info/img/smile/409.gif)2 Timothy 4:3 For there will be time when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but they will accumulate teachers to themselves according to their own desires, who tickle the ear,

Bye.

That's so unfair, ww.

I do read your posts.  I usually enjoy your posts a lot.

Does that mean I always have to agree with you?  I often agree. 

But, sometimes I don't.   And, sometimes I just don't know.

And, sometimes I'm not interested in the topic you are addressing.

That's seems a pretty normal response to me. 

But, your thoughts are valuable to me.

Jesus was not carnally minded, but he was tempted in all manner like as we are. He had flesh. He had to mortify it daily. He was born of a woman, born under law. His victory was that he made the choice to obey the father every time, and to me, that is the testimony of love. Only love can set us that free to obey. Yet, he sweat, as it were great drops of blood, as he wrestled in the garden. He pleaded with his Father to find another way. I love you Lord Jesus, your humanity astounds me.

Quote from: eaglesway on October 23, 2011, 07:14:03 PM
His victory was that he made the choice to obey the father every time...

That doesn't completely sit right with me.
Jesus tells us the He expressly came to do His Father's Will.

I often wonder what is the will of Jesus. Was that will perfect as he is perfect or was that will his carnal will?

Consider this. What if the will of Jesus was not evil or sinful, but rather simply a different path?.

E.g Father God wanted Jesus to go down the path of the cross. What if Jesus also had a divine plan or will, that desired to be e.g the king of Israel and rule the Earth with his rightoeus will. Nobody can say that this was evil, but yet Father wanted Jesus to go to the cross, so Jesus says not my will but thou will be done.

Also consider maybe Jesus had 3 different paths

Path 1 - Obey Father and trust Him
Path 2 - Trust Himself and become King and do great works
Path 3 - His carnal flesh nature temptations that pull him as gravity towards selfishness and sin e.g rule the Earth as King but through sinful means e.g control, fear, mezmerizing.

:bump:

Quote from: Taffy on October 23, 2011, 03:15:38 PM
Amen He did not do HIS own will but came to Do the will of His Father ,He being the SOUL of HIS father, Mind \Heart \Will and desire~ unlike Eve ,shown as OUR soul who did , SUCCUMBING TO the serpent, The Serpent likened to the Ego Had no part of Him, the god[ Father of this World being the Serpent, the serpent gave the seed to eve and she birthed the carnal Mind, Therefore Christ didnt have one ~ He was Spiritual Minded of the Holy Spirit from Birth, but subjected to the same trial\ordeal of men, HE WAS Spiritually minded not Carnally Minded, To be Carnally minded is DEATH , to be Spiritually Minded is LIFE and Peace, is how im given to see this :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 23, 2011, 08:39:37 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on October 23, 2011, 07:14:03 PM
His victory was that he made the choice to obey the father every time...

That doesn't completely sit right with me.
Jesus tells us the He expressly came to do His Father's Will.

Yea, but he never said it was easy ;o)

He was joyful about it!


Hebrews 1:
8; But about the Son he says,
   "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
   a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9; You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 05:16:44 PM
I learned something new today....
There were punctuation marks in the ancient Greek texts.
Article: http://www.elihubooks.com/data/topical_index/000/000/315/EOP_3_Punctuation_in_early_Greek_NT_texts_Stafford.pdf (http://www.elihubooks.com/data/topical_index/000/000/315/EOP_3_Punctuation_in_early_Greek_NT_texts_Stafford.pdf)
Main site: http://www.elihubooks.com/content/topical_index.php (http://www.elihubooks.com/content/topical_index.php)


Page 2.
There are three marks [or, 'points'], a period [or, 'a finished point'], a semi-colon/colon [or,
'a middle point'], and a comma. On the one hand, the period mark is a sign for a complete
expression, but a semi-colon/colon [or, 'a middle point'] sign is breathed according to those
Page 3.

the full point. The point at the top of the line (.) (stigmhÉ teleiÈa, 'high point') was a full stop;
that on the line (.) (uJpostigmhÈ) was equal to our semicolon, while a middle point (stigmhÉ

meÈsh) was equivalent to our comma. But gradually changes came over these stops till the top

point was equal to our colon, the bottom point became the full stop, the middle point

vanished, and about the ninth century A.D. the comma (,) took its place. About this time also

the question-mark (;) or ejrwthmatikoÈn appeared. These marks differed from the stiÈcoi in

that they concerned the sense of the sentence. Some of the oldest N.T. MSS. show these

marks to some extent. B [Codex Vaticanus] has the higher point as a period, the lower point

for a shorter pause.9

Page 19
As the response from Rome states clearly, the color of the lower point in
Codex B in Luke 23:43 after the Greek word for "today" is brown, not black or darker as is the
ink of the second hand or the even later scribal corrector.
Even if it were a mark by one of the other two scribes, it would still serve as an indication of the
belief of the scribe identified as to how the sense of the text was understood at the time it was
corrected. But since the point is apparently of the original "brown" color, then the mark after
"today" in Codex B in Luke 23:43 should be included as part of the good reasons which indicate
the correct understanding of Luke 23:43 according to one of the best available texts.


The way I read the above:[/size][/color][/font]

I say to you today; you shall be.....[/size][/color][/font]

I didn't comment on this because, quite frankly, I am not able to comment on it.

This is a fight between Greek scholars over punctuation, and you have found one that disagrees with the rest, and how can I judge who is right and who is wrong?

To do that, I would have to study for years in a very particular part of a very esoteric field, ancient texts in Greek and Hebrew.

Plenty of people have already done that for me.  To find one that disagrees with the majority does not serve your cause.

But, what I can say, is that the rendering of most translations, 'Today you will be with me in paradise,' is confirmed by other statements in the NT and OT that point to Jesus being alive in Spirit during those three days, and actively doing things with respect to the dead.

Jesus himself gives Jonah as the sign of his death,  and we all know that Jonah, although in the belly of the whale, was alive.

Common sense also tells us that it is impossible to kill the Spirit of God, and Jesus was filled with the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Therefore, I reject fights over comma's in favor of a more overwhelming body of evidence, the actual scripture itself, that Jesus, although dead physically, was alive in Spirit during his time in the grave.  And it is this Spirit which revivified his physical body.

Now I didn't say any of this at the time you posted because I was hoping to avoid any more fights over comma's and moving on.

But, you accuse me of not reading your posts by virtue of my silence, so now I feel I have to respond, if only to say, sometimes I don't respond because I choose not to prolong a fight and sometimes because I simply have nothing positive to say.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 23, 2011, 11:20:29 PM


He was joyful about it!


Hebrews 1:
8; But about the Son he says,
   "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
   a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9; You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He went a little farther, and fell on the ground, and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will." (Mar 14:35-36)

In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
(Heb 5:7-8)

Every high priest is taken from among men

It could be said that his zeal for the Father's house consumed him. It could be said that his joy sustained  him through his sorrows and his pain. He sympathizes with our weakness because He knows them from experience. Great is the mystery of godliness.

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on October 11, 2011, 04:41:33 AM
Many years ago, when I was exposed to anti-catholic protestant literature, I decided that the claim that the Church stopped existing when it apostates from the reign of Constantine to the Protestant Reformation or the formation of the Baptist Church (for the Landmarkists) denied the scriptures where Jesus promised the Church would not fall.  Expand that from just the Catholic Church to all professing denominations.  According to universalism, the Church went into error and taught a false gospel of a hell that only existed in pagan imaginations.  How would universalists explain the Church's falling away from truth and believing the lie of eternal torment?

The church apostatizing is different from its cessation of existing, in my view. In fact, the church started going into error, or apostatizing even before the close of the NT cannon, for in the NT we read of both grave errors (sins) in various churches, and prophecy that many would fall away from the faith.

No church is correct in every point of doctrine, in my view. There is doctrine which is essential for
receiving eternal life, and there are doctrines which affect the quality of life lived. I believe that in
most if not all Christian churches there are true believers, even though they may believe many false
doctrines. In my view, all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, have it. Since I believed
I have found out that I held many false doctrines, but I don't think that those false beliefs kept me
from being saved. I did not believe in UR until quite recently, and don't believe that kept me from
being saved at all. It's just the after coming to this new knowledge, I can explain much I could not before, and I am much more at peace with all of life. My view of God greatly changed when I learned the truth of UR.

Quote from: gkm on February 04, 2012, 04:42:12 AM

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on October 11, 2011, 04:41:33 AM
Many years ago, when I was exposed to anti-catholic protestant literature, I decided that the claim that the Church stopped existing when it apostates from the reign of Constantine to the Protestant Reformation or the formation of the Baptist Church (for the Landmarkists) denied the scriptures where Jesus promised the Church would not fall.  Expand that from just the Catholic Church to all professing denominations.  According to universalism, the Church went into error and taught a false gospel of a hell that only existed in pagan imaginations.  How would universalists explain the Church's falling away from truth and believing the lie of eternal torment?

The church apostatizing is different from its cessation of existing, in my view. In fact, the church started going into error, or apostatizing even before the close of the NT cannon, for in the NT we read of both grave errors (sins) in various churches, and prophecy that many would fall away from the faith.

No church is correct in every point of doctrine, in my view. There is doctrine which is essential for
receiving eternal life, and there are doctrines which affect the quality of life lived. I believe that in
most if not all Christian churches there are true believers, even though they may believe many false
doctrines. In my view, all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, have it. Since I believed
I have found out that I held many false doctrines, but I don't think that those false beliefs kept me
from being saved. I did not believe in UR until quite recently, and don't believe that kept me from
being saved at all. It's just the after coming to this new knowledge, I can explain much I could not before, and I am much more at peace with all of life. My view of God greatly changed when I learned the truth of UR.

That's how I see it too.  I had a guy (no longer posting here) a few years ago tell me he didn't believe anyone that believed in ET was as yet reconciled to God (as he put it).  I've said several different times, the Bible doesn't say believe in UR and you will be saved...although I believe the revelation of UR is of course a very important one, being given faith to believe in Jesus as Savior is what the Bible says it takes to be spiritually reborn (saved).   

Say not, "We are children of Abraham". I can raise up children to Abraham from these stones. You are of your father, the devil.....he was a murderer from the beginning.