Jesus purposely spoke in parables, to cause the impure of heart to stumble over the stumbling stone of His grace. All those who cannot give grace cannot receive grace, but as they stumble they learn the hard way, what the easy way is :o)
It works pretty simply really, for example....
Jesus says, I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day....(John 12)
I have come as Light....the word I have spoken will judge him in the last day. In another place He says,
You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone. 16"But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me(John 8)
And Yet He says, "I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts", and "Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and His angels"....
It becomes clear Jesus judges, but He did not come to judge, He came to save, and any judgment that comes from Him is simply the light that He is and that flows from Him upon all who come into His presence, and any judgment that anyone recieves as a result will yield salvation.... because the light shines into the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it. The nature of His judgment is mercy, to deliver the stupid stubborn child from his arrogant, self-destructive and predatory ways.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.(Eph 2)
Not to get to far into election and predestination, but we were once dead in transgressions, but we were saved by grace- not to judge the world, but to save it.
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.(James 1:18)
"Born not of the flesh or the will of man but of God"(John 1)
So we were brought forth into the world by the will of God to be a first-fruits, conformed to the image of His Son. As Paul says in Eph 1- "That we who were the first to hope in Christ will be to the praise of His glory"
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.(Heb 2:10)
As Jesus sufferred, so do we, in order that we can share in His inheritance as legitimate children- both in the disciplines of God and by sharing in His suffering(If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him)
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body....
What is the whole creation groaning in anticipation of? US! Why?- Not because we are so wonderful, but because HE IS! And we are being made like Him, and prepared to be as He is to the world, repairers of the breach.
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.(Rom 8)
Lots of folks want to point out that we are called, chiosen, elect- but they dont know why. They do not know we are "called according to His purpose"- and His purpose is to save the whole world. It is for this purpose we have become the "called out ones", the ecclesia.
Paul tells the Colossians, "For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross" And John tells us," And we beheld His glory, as the only begotten of the Father- full of grace and truth...And of His fulness have we all received, with grace upon grace". And Paul says again, "And you are in Him having been filled". Filled with what? Filled with grace, which means filled with Him.... THAT is the light that will judge and transform and save the whole creation.
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation(2 Cor 5)
Jesus says, "the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." That word of reconciliation offerred in love is the testimony of Jesus Christ, His gospel. There is no other.
Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God
Is God in us "reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them"?
Then the remnant of Jacob Will be among many peoples Like dew from the Lord, Like showers on vegetation Which do not wait for man Or delay for the sons of men(Micah 5:7).
I see election within the concept of the first fruits. I think it so beautiful- the whole thing. All those who are in Christ and remain fatihful are being brought into glory, in the same way he was- through sufferings(trials, tribs, persecutions), joining in the ministry of reconciliation now and in ages to come the restoration of all things, setting the creation free from futility. A priesthood(every high priest is taken from among men to serve them in things pertaining to God) and a brotherhood.
"He who overcomes will inherit all things and sit with me on my Father's throne."
"He who sits on the throne says, "Behold I am making all things new"
"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, all things become new."
The first to be subjected become the servants of creation leading to further subjection- the gathering together of all things into one in Christ(anakephalaomai)... The inheritance of the children of God.
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.(Eph 1:9-11)
These things are all clearly connected together once we see them, suffering, transformation, election, glory, service, reconciliation, restoration. Jesus did not come to judge the world but to save it. Would that Christians felt the same way LOL
I think all of Romans is about this, the first fruits of newness(in the glorious liberty of the children of God) setting the whole creation free from its subjection to futility and into subjection to Christ in freedom and love.
It also connects up well with Romans 1.... Since the beginning God has made His eternal power and divine nature clearly evident through the things He has made.... and Romas 2...Those who did not have the law will be judged without law and those who had the law will be judged under the law... the law of God being a guide and a tool for those who serve, not an axe for beheading the ignorant. Clearly those who did not have the law but kept it by nature show the law written on their hearts and their conscience will excuse them in the Day as God judges mens secrets by Jesus Christ.
I think that those who by nature kept the law even tho they did not have it in hand, testified that they knew Him, tho perhaps not mentally- but in the secret place of the heart.
I wonder if they will be more elect than the elect :)
Psalm 24
1The earth is the LORD'S, and all it contains,
The world, and those who dwell in it.
2For He has founded it upon the seas
And established it upon the rivers.
3Who may ascend into the hill of the LORD?
And who may stand in His holy place?
4He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood
And has not sworn deceitfully.
5He shall receive a blessing from the LORD
And righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6This is the generation of those who seek Him,
Who seek Your face—even Jacob.
Selah.
7Lift up your heads, O gates,
And be lifted up, O ancient doors,
That the King of glory may come in!
8Who is the King of glory?
The LORD strong and mighty,
The LORD mighty in battle.
9Lift up your heads, O gates,
And lift them up, O ancient doors,
That the King of glory may come in!
10Who is this King of glory?
The LORD of hosts,
He is the King of glory.
A lot of the church talk about being called and having a purpose and they then try to be an evangelist or missionary etc....not realising that there are still ages to come that they are being prepared for. I have had so much frustration because I lamented over all the years I have done nothing to reconcile people. Rubbish! God has been working in me all the time to reconcile people. I believe there is a hidden interecessory thing that happens on the level of spirit with us without us realising it.
The trials we go through are somehow vicarious for other people who do not even know Him yet.
The eternal torment, death is the last chance idea causes many in the church to think that they have not ever fulfilled their calling in God. What a surprise they are in for. Life goes on and on and on in the ages to come.
I Love your sharing of the Word.
The Lord is so good. His Word so sweet :o)
Very good thread John so much truth in Gods Holy Word. :banana:
Jesus said, "He that does not gather with me scatters".
A wise brother once asked me, "Are you a gatherer or a scatterer?"
It really IS important that we know what spirit we are of. :o)
As I see it, a gatherer is of a good spirit and knows it.
A scatterer is usually of a wrong spirit and does not see himself/herself for what they really are.
Just my :2c: after a quick thought on this.
Valuable and Insightful :2c:
Over the years, it seems, to me, in e.t. the spirit of "us against them" has grown.. (we can discern doctrine by its fruit). I too believe we are being prepared for works which include after this lifetime (and before Jesus hands the Kingdom over to the Father). I like to have a good outline of history for this reason.. which may sound strange, but I believe there will be millions of unsaved during what I believe to be the age of the white throne judgment ('day') from all walks of life and from all of earth's history - which is chock full of horrific things.. genocides, wars, etc etc.. those who suffered under them and those who inflicted them.. A day of weeping, including our own (of empathy) which will serve to even more so convince us all of the futility/horror of wandering away from Yahweh who is life (itself) and perfection. (thus to be imperfect is to perish - the all too real potential if Yahweh were not so perfect in love, mercy and kindness..
:thumbsup:
Quote from: marie glen on November 10, 2015, 11:51:26 AM
Over the years, it seems, to me, in e.t. the spirit of "us against them" has grown.. (we can discern doctrine by its fruit). I too believe we are being prepared for works which include after this lifetime (and before Jesus hands the Kingdom over to the Father). I like to have a good outline of history for this reason.. which may sound strange, but I believe there will be millions of unsaved during what I believe to be the age of the white throne judgment ('day') from all walks of life and from all of earth's history - which is chock full of horrific things.. genocides, wars, etc etc.. those who suffered under them and those who inflicted them.. A day of weeping, including our own (of empathy) which will serve to even more so convince us all of the futility/horror of wandering away from Yahweh who is life (itself) and perfection. (thus to be imperfect is to perish - the all too real potential if Yahweh were not so perfect in love, mercy and kindness..
:iagree: :dsunny:Amen
I believe the Lord of harvests, gathers from His own season to season
the firstfruits of those whom slept
The Order of Resurrection
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead....
great thoughts from everyone here on this thread .....
What are the last fruits ?
Matt 7 A Tree and its Fruit
15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16"You will know them by their fruits.
Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
Make the tee good and its fruits good or make the tree corrupt and its fruits a TREE is known by its fruit/ faith / works / end result ?
I have considered the fresh squeezed grapes , being the new wine [blood of Christ ] in the new wineskin this being the Body of Christ [all in him already] living for God as Live in Christ and serving ,poured out as a drink offering ......
drink a little wine for the stomachs sake ...1Tim 5 22Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others;
keep yourself free from sin. 23No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. 24The sins of some men are quite evident, going before them to judgment; for others, their sins follow after....
I know that some grapes are the same blood of the saints [ Holy ones that come out of Christ body] Church and is for the destruction of Babylon , She drinks the wine of Gods passion double , because she has killed them innocent ones from the beginning........
I say this with a grain of salt and humbly consider , that Revelation was wrote in the DAY OF THE LORD /THE LORDS DAY WHEN JOHN SPOKE OF BEING IN THE SPIRIT , not in the flesh at all and these things must shortly come to pass , that is destroying Babylon in one day ....
What if everyone's DAY OF THE LORD is different ? What if it really is the Father whom chooses only and no one knows but GOD HIMSELF ?
I have considered Johns DAY OF THE LORD as being in the Spirit of prophecy , a foretelling of what is to come ...by the witness of JESUS CHRIST testimony the WORD made flesh and the Witness of the HOLY SPIRIT , GODS LOVE that bears witness within your spirit ?
What God places in the hearts of mankind ?
Ecc3 9 What profit have workers from their toil?
10 I have seen the business that God has given to mortals to be busied about.
11 God has made everything appropriate to its time, but has put the timeless into their hearts so they cannot find out, from beginning to end, the work which God has done.
12 I recognized that there is nothing better than to rejoice and to do well during life.
13 Moreover, that all can eat and drink and enjoy the good of all their toil—this is a gift of God.
14 I recognized that whatever God does will endure forever; there is no adding to it, or taking from it. Thus has God done that he may be revered. 15 What now is has already been; what is to be, already is: God retrieves what has gone by.
The Harvest of the Earth
...18Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe."
19So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.
Isaiah 63:2
Why are your garments red, like those of one treading the winepress?
Joel 3:13
Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes, for the winepress is full and the vats overflow-- so great is their wickedness!"
Revelation 14:18
Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe."
Revelation 19:15
Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the passion of God Almighty.
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great wine press of the passion of God.
The Patches and Wineskins
16"But no one puts a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and a worse tear results.
17"Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved."
Job 32:19
inside I am like bottled-up wine, like new wineskins ready to burst.
Matthew 9:16
"No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse.
Matthew 9:18
While he was saying this, a synagogue leader came and knelt before him and said, "My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live."
Mark 2:22
And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins."
Luke 5:37
And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the new wine will burst the skins; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined.
Luke 5:38
No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins.
I see Jesus Christ as the new everything and out with the old Babylon ways being tore down in ONE DAY REV 18 THE DAY OF THE LORD Therefore, her plagues will come in one day,
pestilence, grief, and famine;
she will be consumed by fire.
For mighty is the Lord God who judges her."
We see Wisdom was was already established by God ... seeing it unfold .....
The Way of Wisdom
1Wisdom has built her house, She has hewn out her seven pillars; 2She has prepared her food, she has mixed her wine; She has also set her table;...[Rev reference ] Revelation 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, ... of the 7 churches is Wisdom
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are co-workers in God's service; you are God's field, God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:10
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care.
Ephesians 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Proverbs 24:3
By wisdom a house is built, and through understanding it is established;
Treasury of Scripture
Wisdom has built her house, she has hewn out her seven pillars:
wisdom The infinite and eternal Wisdom of God, which has so framed the universe as to exhibit a scene of grandeur and stability, and made ample provision for the innumerable beings by which it is inhabited. builded
Matthew 16:18 And I say also to you, That you are Peter, and on this rock I will ...
1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are laborers together with God: you are God's husbandry, you ...
Ephesians 2:20-22 And are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus ...
1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself ...
Hebrews 3:3-6 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch ...
1 Peter 2:5,6 You also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy ...
Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runs out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
old.
Joshua 9:4 They did work wilily, and went and made as if they had been ambassadors, ...
Job 32:19 Behold, my belly is as wine which has no vent; it is ready to burst ...
Psalm 119:83 For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; yet do I not forget your statutes.
all these have written and spoken the WORD of Life though the WORD JESUS CHRIST foretelling the TRUTH by the HOLY SPIRIT speaking in them
none can add or take this away from what GOD has perfected already in HIS WISDOM
from the foundation of the world :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on January 19, 2016, 01:04:04 PM
What if everyone's DAY OF THE LORD is different ?
Well worth considering!
Quote from: Patinak on January 19, 2016, 05:45:08 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 19, 2016, 01:04:04 PM
What if everyone's DAY OF THE LORD is different ?
Well worth considering!
Thank you for that brother Pat :friendstu:
We are all of the same family.
I am different to my kin in the flesh- same family, yet different roles and tastes.
We get disciplined differently, yet are to value the same concept of love. Seems to be the concept for the spiritual family to which we belong. Highlights the incredible broadness of God's taste and abilities. All things are possible, just not everything is wise.
The first fruits are having demonstrations of both good and evil in many ways. Judgment exposes the right from the wrong. Correction happens in a variety of ways as well. Awareness only happens when this is pointed out either by being caught, exposed, or by realising the problems happening as a result of the course of action currently being undertaken.
Quote from: rosered on January 19, 2016, 07:58:38 PM
Quote from: Patinak on January 19, 2016, 05:45:08 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 19, 2016, 01:04:04 PM
What if everyone's DAY OF THE LORD is different ?
Well worth considering!
Thank you for that brother Pat :friendstu:
I think everyone's Day of the Lord is individual, perhaps not necessarily all at a different and individual time, but certainly with individual attention.
:Chinscratch: ...what if He had engineered things so that each individual wandered away from Him & His perfection/image into imperfection/missing the mark-the Greek for sin - all at separate individual times, and wonder why He didn't engineer/design it that way?
I do think the Day of the Lord will be different for everyone. I think everyone will awaken from their sleep into their Day. For some it will be a Day of glory without reference to judgment. For some it will be a Day of purging some wood hay and stubble. For some it will be a Day of kolassis/correction in the presence of the Lord.
The reason I feel this way is because imo the Day of the Lord already is. We just awaken into it(in this life through the revelation of Jesus Christ or in the next life in His presence and according as to how the shining of His face affects those who had not received that revelation- some because of ignorance or some because of rebellion, some rejoicing to see His Day and some not so rejoicing until purged in the light/fire of His Face which shines like the sun.)
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
I love His Word and the gathering into Him :HeartThrob: as One Spirit ... considering one another and Lifting up the Lord Jesus Christ
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2016, 07:22:50 AM
I do think the Day of the Lord will be different for everyone. I think everyone will awaken from their sleep into their Day. For some it will be a Day of glory without reference to judgment. For some it will be a Day of purging some wood hay and stubble. For some it will be a Day of kolassis/correction in the presence of the Lord.
The reason I feel this way is because imo the Day of the Lord already is. We just awaken into it(in this life through the revelation of Jesus Christ or in the next life in His presence and according as to how the shining of His face affects those who had not received that revelation- some because of ignorance or some because of rebellion, some rejoicing to see His Day and some not so rejoicing until purged in the light/fire of His Face which shines like the sun.)
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
I agree :thumbsup: :smile: but I think there is also the day of the LORD for the world (system of man) at the "end of the age" (mt 24:3-25:33) and believe there is a collective 'judgment day' more or less 1000 years later, a serious review of all mankind's history (rev 20:4; 5-14) when I believe He saves most of those not yet saved, if not all. And writes/engraves the full understanding of good from evil/life from not life upon every heart and mind.
:Peace2:
We see thru the glass darkly and the day of the Lord is blossoming like a rose :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on November 07, 2015, 09:31:34 PM
Lots of folks want to point out that we are called, chiosen, elect- but they dont know why. They do not know we are "called according to His purpose"- and His purpose is to save the whole world. It is for this purpose we have become the "called out ones", the ecclesia.
Jesus says, "the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." That word of reconciliation offerred in love is the testimony of Jesus Christ, His gospel. There is no other.
Then the remnant of Jacob Will be among many peoples Like dew from the Lord, Like showers on vegetation Which do not wait for man Or delay for the sons of men(Micah 5:7).
I see election within the concept of the first fruits. I think it so beautiful- the whole thing. All those who are in Christ and remain fatihful are being brought into glory, in the same way he was- through sufferings(trials, tribs, persecutions), joining in the ministry of reconciliation now and in ages to come the restoration of all things, setting the creation free from futility. A priesthood(every high priest is taken from among men to serve them in things pertaining to God) and a brotherhood.
These things are all clearly connected together once we see them, suffering, transformation, election, glory, service, reconciliation, restoration. Jesus did not come to judge the world but to save it. Would that Christians felt the same way LOL
I think that those who by nature kept the law even tho they did not have it in hand, testified that they knew Him, tho perhaps not mentally- but in the secret place of the heart.
I wonder if they will be more elect than the elect :)
[/color]
eaglesway: You have pulled together so many of the verses and thoughts that I have, and intwined them with the message of UR, in a most beautiful way.
I picked out some of your quotes that I most enjoyed/ appreciated.
This has helped me immensely to see the "whole picture' of Salvation.
Thank you, EW.
:Gclap:
D.