Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment:
1 Thessalonians chapter 4, especially verses 13 and 14, answers the question New Testament believers had concerning believers who had now died before the return of Jesus. Paul wrote that these ones were asleep in aJesus and would return with Jesus at His return. Verses 15 and 16 tell us those thus awakened will precede Jesus' gathering to Himself His elect at His return (cross reference Matthew 24:27,29-31). This of course is the first resurrection, also spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, when believers will "put on immortality" which I presume means immortality will not be put on earlier, namely at each individual's death.
The "Judgment Seat of Christ" occurs at, or follows this first resurrection when believers will receive rewards, etc. So die, then judgment.
All unbelievers will be resurrected in the second resurrection after the millennial reign of Jesus, the second advent (literal like the first). And of course we know Judgment Day follows that resurrection. Die, then the judgment. But surely the day of examining/judging all things, all human history, etc will be a very long day. And by the end of that (day) when God says "those not believing will go to the second death" who is not going to believe?
Why would there be conviction and sentence passed upon those who never even "heard" the gospel, which will be a large part of the second resurrection. "How will they hear unless they are told?" Romans 10:14. It defies logic and scripture such as "God is love" 1 John 4:8 and "God desires all to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment:
This is the verse that is used to "prove" that no one can be saved after death.
The false premise is that judgment is quote a "bad thing" that is to be avoided - it is simply a synonym for eternal punishment.
The truth is that God uses judgment for a good thing - Isaiah 26:9 gives us an example: when God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. That is what judgment does.
Judgment means to make a decision about a situation, upon which a resolution is given which will set things right. So the participants of this process will learn what is right by understanding the decision and what was done wrong. ie. they learn what righteousness is - righteousness is doing the right thing.
Therefore this verse is proof that everyone will ultimately learn what is right. (ie. righteousness). Everyone will learn this through judgment - for everyone is judged, either here and now or after death.
Quote from: legoman on December 13, 2010, 08:53:45 PM
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment:
This is the verse that is used to "prove" that no one can be saved after death.
The false premise is that judgment is quote a "bad thing" that is to be avoided - it is simply a synonym for eternal punishment.
Even if judgement is a bad thing it doesn't automaticly mean it's an everlasting thing.
Exactly...we have judges on earth and when they do judge someone it is often to a temporary punishment.
The parable of the debtor in Matthew 18 even says: 32Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.
There's an example right there of someone being judged and found guilty, but his punishment is not forever, it is simply until he pays back what he owes.
This verse has allways been against the idea of reincarnation, because a man only lives once then the judgment. But it has occured to me that perhaps the man that dies, is Adam, in Adam we all die, so we are all spiritually dead until the judgment, the white throne judgment where we will be written in the lambs book of life.
So with this in mind it can then be possible to physically die many times, because that's not what the verse is possibly warning against, but is talking about a spiritual death, which we all are, until we are judged through christ.
:2c:
Quote from: jabcat on December 01, 2010, 02:17:51 AM
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment:
This verse is used along with a couple of doctrinal assumptions asserted to be absolutely true.
1. That you must believe in christ before you die from earth
2. Judgment along with #1 carries the assumption that if you die not believing in Christ then you are judged to eternal misery.
The verse in and of itself poses no problems to all men being saved because this verses meaning is only supported by the context in which a persons doctrinal position rests.
In other words, this verse is not a proof text for any doctrinal stance, the verses meaning is DEFINED by a doctrinal position.
Another assumption is that "the judgment" is the NEXT event in that person's after-life experience, whereas perhaps it is merely an eventual event. As the old song goes, "It Ain't Necessarily So."
Not that I have worked through any changes in my understanding of future events as a result of recently embracing "ultimate reconciliation," but......if I say I'm driving from New York City to Washington, D.C., that may include a stop in Philadelphia and a stop in Baltimore. I still end up in D.C., but D.C> isn't the ONLY and NEXT stop on the trip.
Bob
Judgment!
http://www.godfire.net/eby/judgment.html
LOL :thumbsup:
Paul
Wow :mshock: many bits and pieces that resonate with me, it's nice to see someone who also as the same revelations. I said somehwere on this forum that there were 7 or 8 judgments that man has to go through since Adam. If only i could keep up with what God is doing, he's way to fast for me in terms of revelations, it seems that many in the body of Christ are also receiving many revelations in these days, not just the preachers and the big shots, put the common simple folk, glory to God who loves the meek. It's good that he loves the meek, we people tend to love those who are great in the world, charismatic, Intelligent etc, but God gives time for all people, which is amazing to think that someone with Gods intelligence would want to spend time with people who are so dumb and simple as us. But God loves the simple things in life, e.g bread :bigGrin:
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:12-16)
In Hebrews 9:27 there is nothing at all that implicates ET or ED. It simply says that man is given one life, and at death the sum of it will be judged. Note: it does not say "then comes the condemnation". The word used for judgment is "krisis" which refers to an objective tribunal. This is further explained by Paul to the Romans where he clearly states that "on the day" (the day of the Lord comes like a thief- death is the thief, and no man knows the day or the hour) - in that day everyone will be tried by the record of their own conscience(the deeds written in the book- the book is the conscience, that is why we need our "heart sprinkled clean from an evil conscience")- THEIR CONSCIENCE EITHER ACCUSING THEM OR DEFENDING THEM.
Why is this? It is because only God knows the secrets of men's hearts. WHY DO YOU GO ON JUDGING BEFORE THE TIME! Only when those eyes that are as flames of fire burn through all the darkness to purge the soul hiding from the light will it be known- Who was that good and faithful servant?
Maybe NOT the Pharisee or the Levite or the Baptist preacher or the Pentecostal deacon! Maybe the unknowing Samaritan whose conscience will DEFEND him in the presence of God when the words ring out, "I was beaten and left for dead by the side of the road and you helped me", "I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was naked and you clothed me".
When the eye is dark the whole body is full of darkness. Because we always condemn, when we hear the word "judgment", we hear the concept of condemnation. This is the log in our corporate eye. So, we cannot see that judgment is about the discernment of God, the "whys" of God.We forget that judgment and mercy have met together, righteousness and peace have kissed each other, and that mercy triumphs over judgment. Because our deeds are evil we attribute to God our own image.
First get the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able to see the splinter in anothers eye, and you will say, "Forgive them Father".... and maybe then He will give you permission to remove the splinter, because it is causing them pain and hurting their vision.
If you find a brother in a fault, "those who are spiritual among you restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering your own selves....."
"Turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved ON THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS!" This fire is about restoration. This is the same day of Romans 2:12-16. Jesus is that DAY. "I am the light of the world". The DAY is the FIRE that CONSUMES THE DARKNESS.
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Co 3:13-15) Again, this fire is about restoration. The first to feel the fire will be those who condemn others.
These judges who want to place everyone in an eternal hell ought to search the scriptures because they are building wood, hay and stubble- misrepresenting the eternal power and divine nature of God.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
(Rom 1:18-20)
The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness cannot understand it. Jesus is the radiance of the Father's glory, the exact representation of His nature. Behold, I am making all things new!
Their is judgment and there is chastisement but.....It is all always eventually about restoration. "For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Act 3:19-21)
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:25-28)
Not all in some, all in ALL, even these enemies who have now been subjected.
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the completion of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. (Eph 1:9-10)
Summed up..... gathered into one(NASB). Why?... so that God may be all in all. How?... Through the blood of His cross
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col 1:19-20)
When? When time is completed.....When the last enemy, death is subjected.
Who? ALL, as it is written, because it cannot be less than all if the Word of God is true. This was His original plan and purpose, the mystery of the gospel.
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:32-36)
Yes, it is given to every man once to die and then come the judgment. That judgment is the light of day, the fire in the eyes of the one who "tries the reins and the hearts". For some that judgment will be, "Well done you good and faithful servant, enter the joy of your Lord". For some it will be 30 fold, for some 60 and for some 100. For some it will be 5 cities, for some 10 talents. For some it will be a few stripes. For some it will be many stripes. For some it will be "Go into the fire prepared for the devil and his messengers, to be penetrated by absolute light, light as a fire that will consume the darkness, till every knee bow and every tongue confess, "Jesus Christ is Lord". Until death is NO MORE! Neither first death or second death, because THE LAST ENEMY TO BE SUBJECTED IS DEATH.
BEHOLD, I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW!
This is another terrible proof text to prove that there is no chance after death. However why are there no other text to assert that once one dies, your eternal fate is sealed? It seems like a pretty important matter than to dedicate one scripture. This is the popular line the Street Preacher makes when he starts his long rants "The bible says it is appointed for men once to die and after this the Judgment" Yet that is the only piece of scripture they can acknowledge when they proceed to their carnal rants. So if "One Chanceism" can only be supported by carnal reasoning, then its not worth even considering.
Plus even satan can twist scriptures, but the Holy Spirit has the power to untangle satans knots.
That Hebrews 9;27 does NOT by itself Rule Out Universalism :dunno2:
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on October 13, 2012, 09:21:11 PM
That Hebrews 9;27 does NOT by itself Rule Out Universalism :dunno2:
Is that a question or a statement? No, that verse doesn't rule out universalism. What it states is there is a judgment after death. Most believers believe that to be true. The purpose of the judgment is what we tend to disagree upon. Is the judgment punative and permanent in nature. Is that consistent with agape love or the Bible in the original languages? Or is the judgment corrective in nature? Take everything you have been taught and brainwashed with since you were a wee tot out of this...just think which one makes more sense. One makes no sense...the other makes perfect sense.
Without having read through the thread, I believe that there is no need to assume that this verse teaches an instant judgment for those who die. Not when you consider that other verses teach a waiting period still future, when God will judge the world in righteousness...
QuoteAct 17:31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
Even Revelation teaches the same...
QuoteRev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
The souls of the dead were asleep in ther grave/Hades waiting for the resurrection. The judgment will set them free from their fleshly rebellion as the fire of God deals with it...in love...purifying and purging them.
The "judgement" is a bit of a paradox for me. If only by the Spirit and God's gift of faith does one come to believe, then why is there any judgement for believing or not believing? It is like holding someone accountable for something they can't control. If it is God who works in us by grace to teach us to deny ungodliness, if it is He who does the work, not us, then what are we being judged for? Apart from Him we can do nothing. Jesus said it Himself. So what am I being judged for? If He is the author and finisher of my faith and I am trusting in Him for righteousness and strength as He calls to me to do, then what is there in me to be judged? And with those who do not yet believe, can God justly sentence people of whom He has not revealed Himself? The bible tells us that God has purosely blinded some to the truth. Can a just God hold them accountable for that? For me, the only way to settle this is with God's proclamation "I am a just God and a Savior"-- He is the Savior of all because He is a just God. We have all been subjected to futility by His will in hope. Surely He must save all or He is not a just God. So then what is being judged?
Luke 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Quote from: Deena on October 21, 2012, 01:35:36 PM
The "judgement" is a bit of a paradox for me. If only by the Spirit and God's gift of faith does one come to believe, then why is there any judgement for believing or not believing? It is like holding someone accountable for something they can't control. If it is God who works in us by grace to teach us to deny ungodliness, if it is He who does the work, not us, then what are we being judged for? Apart from Him we can do nothing. Jesus said it Himself. So what am I being judged for? If He is the author and finisher of my faith and I am trusting in Him for righteousness and strength as He calls to me to do, then what is there in me to be judged? And with those who do not yet believe, can God justly sentence people of whom He has not revealed Himself? The bible tells us that God has purosely blinded some to the truth. Can a just God hold them accountable for that? For me, the only way to settle this is with God's proclamation "I am a just God and a Savior"-- He is the Savior of all because He is a just God. We have all been subjected to futility by His will in hope. Surely He must save all or He is not a just God. So then what is being judged?
Deena, I agree with you. I think where we misunderstand sometimes is with the word judgment. I believe judgment is not what some see as punishment. God will judge the world in righteousness. Doesn't that mean he will pronounce the world righteous because of what his Son did and not what we do or don't do? Isn't judgment handed down after the judge reviews the sentence and sometimes the case? If Christ sacrifice covered all sin, if what he did satisfied the Father, what is there to do put pronounce us innocent of all charges?
CHB
It seems to me that we were already judged and sentenced by Jesus: forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. Would God refuse Him?
Quote from: Deena on October 21, 2012, 05:40:23 PM
It seems to me that we were already judged and sentenced by Jesus: forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. Would God refuse Him?
You could be right on this also. (John 5:22,27) 3:17 9:39 )
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son. (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
(3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED. {COULD THIS BE THE JUDGMENT}
(9:39) And Jesus said, for judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. (Or is this a different judgment?)
(John 12:47) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: FOR I CAME NOT TO JUDGE THE THE WORLD, BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD.
Look at verse 48. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY.
In Romans 14:10-12) it says that "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ". Is this now or later?
CHB
That is an interesting question that leads me a bit off topic, but here goes... what is the "now" for? I can scarce endure to see so much suffering with little power to do anything. Just what is the now for? In a practical sense, I have a job and kids and have real struggles with both. I've lost several family members far too young. What is the purpose of it all? Will what we learn be useful in the next age? What are we here for?
We are here to love God and others Deena. Jesus grew in knowledge and he showed how much God loves us.
That's kind of our job here and now. To love and grow.
As my best friend Linus from our Peanuts comic strip says, "The growing soul is watered best by tears of adversity."
Physically and spiritually, it is resistance and difficulty which causes us to grow.
If everything were handed to us on a silver platter(which God, who can do anything could do) we would end up a pathetic excuse for a child of God. ("For everyone God loves, he chastens")
To love God and love others--amen. I guess the rest will remain a mystery.
ENDURANCE REV 3;10 SINCE YOU HAVE KEPT MY COMMAND TO ENDURE PATIENTLY
I WILL ALSO KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL THAT IS GOING TO COME UPON THE WHOLE
WORLD TO TEST THOSE WHO LIVE ON EARTH
hEBREWS 10;34 YOU SYMPATHIZED WITH THOSE IN PRISON AND JOYFULLY ACCEPTED
THE CONFISCATION OF YOUR PROPERTY,BECAUSE YOU KNEW THAT YOU,YOURSELVES
HAD BETTER AND LASTING POSSESSIONS.
SO,DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE; IT WILL BE RICHLY REWARDED.....
YOU.....NEED....ENDURANCE............SO THAT WHEN YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD...
YOU..WILL...RECEIVE..WHAT..HE HAS PROMISED
NOW...FAITH..IS BEING SURE..OF WHAT..WE HOPE FOR....AND CERTAIN OF WHAT WE DO NOT SEE
and ps deena.......I GROAN AND SORROW TOO..........the whole creation groans..............Romans 8;22-27
:HeartThrob: Lots of groaning and sorrowing going on here too lol. Til that last trump. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Deena on October 22, 2012, 01:39:51 PM
That is an interesting question that leads me a bit off topic, but here goes... what is the "now" for? I can scarce endure to see so much suffering with little power to do anything. Just what is the now for? In a practical sense, I have a job and kids and have real struggles with both. I've lost several family members far too young. What is the purpose of it all? Will what we learn be useful in the next age? What are we here for?
Hi Deena,
This is just my opinion but I think we are here to learn good and evil and the consequences of both. I think in order to be like God we have to understand both. I think God gives us evil to learn how to use it, good in order that we know the difference. How would we know about the bad if we only had the good? Not the exact words but it says that God gave man evil to humble him by it.
CHB
Quote from: Deena on October 21, 2012, 01:35:36 PM
The "judgement" is a bit of a paradox for me. If only by the Spirit and God's gift of faith does one come to believe, then why is there any judgement for believing or not believing? It is like holding someone accountable for something they can't control. If it is God who works in us by grace to teach us to deny ungodliness, if it is He who does the work, not us, then what are we being judged for? Apart from Him we can do nothing. Jesus said it Himself. So what am I being judged for? If He is the author and finisher of my faith and I am trusting in Him for righteousness and strength as He calls to me to do, then what is there in me to be judged? And with those who do not yet believe, can God justly sentence people of whom He has not revealed Himself? The bible tells us that God has purosely blinded some to the truth. Can a just God hold them accountable for that? For me, the only way to settle this is with God's proclamation "I am a just God and a Savior"-- He is the Savior of all because He is a just God. We have all been subjected to futility by His will in hope. Surely He must save all or He is not a just God. So then what is being judged?
The word "judgment" has been for so long twisted to mean "punishment" that we automatically respond negatively, but the writer of Hebrews does not say, "then comes the punishment". As to what and why we will be judged? In my opinion, we are here to love and shine the light as servants of the Lord Jesus. There is great reward in binding our souls to Him and allowing that spirit of sacrificial love to pour through our spirit.
That God will save all is a given among us.
What is less than given, perhaps, is that we all will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to receive certain rewards, or the loss of certain rewards- in regards to the stewardship of faith we exercised during the days of our sojourning in the flesh.
This has nothing to do with eternal life, it has to do with sonship and the "better resurrection".
The focus that the creation was subject to futility is that it was done "in hope"- that hope being accomplished and fulfilled through the manifestation of the sons of God, a priesthood of overcomers in the spirit of reconciliation. Not everyone will participate in that.
WELL,YOU CERTAINLY GOT THAT RIGHT ON TRACK,BROTHER. :iagree:
FOR IT IS NEVER A VAIN THING TO WORSHIP AND SERVE GOD..IT IS ALWAYS TO OUR
BENEFIT TO LISTEN AND DO WHAT HE SAYS TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY[AND SINCE HE
IS THE ONE WHO FURNISHES THAT ABILITY,HE KNOWS JUST WHAT IT IS]
THERE ARE 'PLACES PREPARED' IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN........
TWO BROTHERS ASKED JESUS FOR 'POSITIONS' ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT"..AND JESUS TOLD THEM
THEY KNEW NOT WHAT THEY ASKED.... FOR IT WOULD GO TO WHOM GOD HAD PREPARED IT FOR..
Quote from: sheila on October 22, 2012, 09:13:58 PM
WELL,YOU CERTAINLY GOT THAT RIGHT ON TRACK,BROTHER. :iagree:
FOR IT IS NEVER A VAIN THING TO WORSHIP AND SERVE GOD..IT IS ALWAYS TO OUR
BENEFIT TO LISTEN AND DO WHAT HE SAYS TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY[AND SINCE HE
IS THE ONE WHO FURNISHES THAT ABILITY,HE KNOWS JUST WHAT IT IS]
THERE ARE 'PLACES PREPARED' IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN........
TWO BROTHERS ASKED JESUS FOR 'POSITIONS' ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT"..AND JESUS TOLD THEM
THEY KNEW NOT WHAT THEY ASKED.... FOR IT WOULD GO TO WHOM GOD HAD PREPARED IT FOR..
Yes, exactly, He knows and He loves us and is full of mercy. The word "overcomers" has been co-opted even as "judgment" has.
An overcomer is someone who clings to faith in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, "allowing the love" to the best of their ability till He comes for them. All is grace, and God knows the secrets of our hearts so much better than we do.
Thank God for that.
Amen? :cloud9:
Quote from: eaglesway
Yes, exactly, He knows and He loves us and is full of mercy. The word "overcomers" has been co-opted even as "judgment" has.
I think the "overcomers" apply to the Jews and not us. Why do we need to overcome when Jesus did that for us?
If we have been baptized, buried, resurrected, and are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ, what do we have to overcome?
CHB
It is simply a daily renewal of faith, hope and love- abiding in Christ, that I speak of. Perhaps Paul said it best,
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
(Rom 12:1-2)
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(Php 3:8-15)
Quote from: CHB on October 22, 2012, 10:31:42 PMI think the "overcomers" apply to the Jews and not us. Why do we need to overcome when Jesus did that for us?
Jesus died for all people. That includes Jews.
:2c:
CHB - IMO
That we have to overcome are the trials and temptations of this life that cause us to grow and were brought our way to encourage total dependence on the Lord
Quote from: eaglesway on October 22, 2012, 10:38:25 PM
It is simply a daily renewal of faith, hope and love- abiding in Christ, that I speak of. Perhaps Paul said it best,
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
(Rom 12:1-2)
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(Php 3:8-15)
Yes, but who was Paul talking to when he said this?
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2012, 11:16:45 PM
Quote from: CHB on October 22, 2012, 10:31:42 PMI think the "overcomers" apply to the Jews and not us. Why do we need to overcome when Jesus did that for us?
Jesus died for all people. That includes Jews.
:2c:
You are right WW but the Jews don't see it that way. Weren't they the overcomers of what the laws were all about? Instead of saying "Jews" I should have said "those under the laws" this would have been much more accurate.
My question was, if we are sitting in heaven on the right hand of God what do we need to overcome?
Paul said "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. NOW IF ANY MAN HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on October 23, 2012, 12:43:39 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2012, 11:16:45 PM
Quote from: CHB on October 22, 2012, 10:31:42 PMI think the "overcomers" apply to the Jews and not us. Why do we need to overcome when Jesus did that for us?
Jesus died for all people. That includes Jews.
:2c:
You are right WW but the Jews don't see it that way.
Neither do muslims. But is it relevant? Jesus did something. Made a statement. He didn't ask permission. He often said things Jews dissagree(d) with. Father agreed and that's what matters.
:2c:
QuoteWeren't they the overcomers of what the laws were all about? Instead of saying "Jews" I should have said "those under the laws" this would have been much more accurate.
My question was, if we are sitting in heaven on the right hand of God what do we need to overcome?
Paul said "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
You answered your own question.
Jesus did not die so we are automaticly overcome.
Jesus died to pay the wages of sin. Death.
So imo that simply means
everybody will be resurrected. Without Jesus everybody simply would stay dead for ever.
That's step 1 so to speak.
Step 2 is becoming an overcomer/new creature.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings
Neither do muslims. But is it relevant? Jesus did something. Made a statement. He didn't ask permission. He often said things Jews dissagree(d) with. Father agreed and that's what matters.
:2c:Quote
WW, I think you misunderstood what I feebly tried to explain.
Yes, Jesus died for Jew's Muslims and the whole world but he only gave the law to Israel to overcome which they couldn't and neither can we. Those who consider themselves bound by keeping laws and doing, doing, doing, have to overcome.
Quote from: WhiteWings
You answered your own question.
Jesus did not die so we are automaticly overcome.
Jesus died to pay the wages of sin. Death.
So imo that simply means everybody will be resurrected. Without Jesus everybody simply would stay dead for ever.
That's step 1 so to speak.
Step 2 is becoming an overcomer/new creature.
:2c
But if you are IN CHRIST you are a new creature, you are sitting on the right hand of God NOW.
You said, "Jesus died to pay the wages of sin. Death." Then what do we need to overcome. It goes back to what is sin? Isn't sin what you are saying that needs to be overcome? If not sin, then what?
CHB
Quote from: eaglesway
I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(Php 3:8-15)
Notice what paul said "forgetting those things that are behind and reaching forth unto those things which are before".
Also, Paul said "Let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT, BE THUS MINDED. What did he mean by this statment?
CHB
Maybe Paul was talking about the constant pull of this world.
I know I would be overjoyed to overcome and attain my screen name status
Quote from: CHB on October 23, 2012, 05:36:06 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings
Neither do muslims. But is it relevant? Jesus did something. Made a statement. He didn't ask permission. He often said things Jews dissagree(d) with. Father agreed and that's what matters.
:2c:
WW, I think you misunderstood what I feebly tried to explain.
Yes, Jesus died for Jew's Muslims and the whole world but he only gave the law to Israel to overcome which they couldn't and neither can we. Those who consider themselves bound by keeping laws and doing, doing, doing, have to overcome.
Quote from: WhiteWings
You answered your own question.
Jesus did not die so we are automaticly overcome.
Jesus died to pay the wages of sin. Death.
So imo that simply means everybody will be resurrected. Without Jesus everybody simply would stay dead for ever.
That's step 1 so to speak.
Step 2 is becoming an overcomer/new creature.
:2c
But if you are IN CHRIST you are a new creature, you are sitting on the right hand of God NOW.
You said, "Jesus died to pay the wages of sin. Death." Then what do we need to overcome. It goes back to what is sin? Isn't sin what you are saying that needs to be overcome? If not sin, then what?
CHB
Quote from: CHBThose who consider themselves bound by keeping laws and doing, doing, doing, have to overcome.
Just feel bound or actually also live by the laws?
To be honest I don't know who exactly are 'in Christ'.
First resurrection ---> Overcomers --> In Christ.
Second resurrection ---> Goats ---> Not in Christ.
Second resurrection ---> Sheep/saints ---> Are they in Christ?
QuoteYou said, "Jesus died to pay the wages of sin. Death." Then what do we need to overcome. It goes back to what is sin? Isn't sin what you are saying that needs to be overcome? If not sin, then what?
Yes, overcoming is stop sinning.
Not sure what you question is so I assume you mean Jesus overcame for us.
I see those things seperately.
The wages of sin is death. Just 1 tiny sin and your destiny is everlasting death. Even if the rest of your life is as holy as Jesus lived. So you totally overcame sin. But to no avail because 1 one tiny sin gets you plunged into an everlasting death.
And that's what Jesus took care of.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings
Yes, overcoming is stop sinning.
If Jesus took care of our sins past present and future how are you going to overcome something that don't exist?
(1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Quote from: WhiteWings
Not sure what you question is so I assume you mean Jesus overcame for us.
I see those things seperately.
The wages of sin is death. Just 1 tiny sin and your destiny is everlasting death. Even if the rest of your life is as holy as Jesus lived. So you totally overcame sin. But to no avail because 1 one tiny sin gets you plunged into an everlasting death.
And that's what Jesus took care of.
:2c:
Do you agree that Jesus took care of ALL SIN?
(1John 3:6)
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
(1John 5:8) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
(1John 5:4) For whatsoever is born of God OVERCOMETH THE WORLD. How? Because Christ has overcome the world.
As Jabcat has said many times, not all are called now but those who are called and who have been crucified, buried, resurrected, and are sitting in Christ have nothing to overcome. It is those who feel they have to obey laws, works, as I said "always doing, but never feeling satisfied that what they do is good enough". These are overcomers. They don't have faith that Jesus took care of it all, they always feel they have to do something or their life is a mess. They feel they are so bad that nothing they do will ever be enough to satisfy God. There is nothing that we can do to make ourselves any better. Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us". By the grace of God go I.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on October 23, 2012, 09:34:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings
Yes, overcoming is stop sinning.
If Jesus took care of our sins past present and future how are you going to overcome something that don't exist?
Jesus paid the penalty for sin. That doesn't mean sin no longer exists/is commited.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings
Not sure what you question is so I assume you mean Jesus overcame for us.
I see those things seperately.
The wages of sin is death. Just 1 tiny sin and your destiny is everlasting death. Even if the rest of your life is as holy as Jesus lived. So you totally overcame sin. But to no avail because 1 one tiny sin gets you plunged into an everlasting death.
And that's what Jesus took care of.
:2c:
Do you agree that Jesus took care of ALL SIN?
The payment, yes. But He didn't stop the sinning of the world because obviously countless sin have been commited since His death.
Quote(1John 3:6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
That means sinning is still possible, still exists. And those who are in Him stopped sinning.
Quote(1John 5:8) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
We also know many aren't born of God.
Quote(1John 5:4) For whatsoever is born of God OVERCOMETH THE WORLD. How? Because Christ has overcome the world.
But for that teh step of rebirth has to be taken. A step many haven't taken yet.
Maybe we are discussing different things :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 23, 2012, 09:46:21 PM
Quote from: CHB on October 23, 2012, 09:34:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings
Yes, overcoming is stop sinning.
If Jesus took care of our sins past present and future how are you going to overcome something that don't exist?
Jesus paid the penalty for sin. That doesn't mean sin no longer exists/is commited.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings
Not sure what you question is so I assume you mean Jesus overcame for us.
I see those things seperately.
The wages of sin is death. Just 1 tiny sin and your destiny is everlasting death. Even if the rest of your life is as holy as Jesus lived. So you totally overcame sin. But to no avail because 1 one tiny sin gets you plunged into an everlasting death.
And that's what Jesus took care of.
:2c:
Do you agree that Jesus took care of ALL SIN?
The payment, yes. But He didn't stop the sinning of the world because obviously countless sin have been commited since His death.
Quote(1John 3:6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
That means sinning is still possible, still exists. And those who are in Him stopped sinning.
Quote(1John 5:8) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
We also know many aren't born of God.
Quote(1John 5:4) For whatsoever is born of God OVERCOMETH THE WORLD. How? Because Christ has overcome the world.
But for that teh step of rebirth has to be taken. A step many haven't taken yet.
Maybe we are discussing different things :winkgrin:
WW, did you read my post?
You said, "That means sinning is still possible, still exists. And those who are in Him stopped sinning."
I believe this is what I said?
I thought what I wrote below explained what I was saying but I guess not.
If laws and works are what constitutes sin and if we continue doing them, laws/works then sin is always knocking on our door isn't it?
As Jabcat has said many times, not all are called now but those who are called and who have been crucified, buried, resurrected, and are sitting in Christ have nothing to overcome. It is those who feel they have to obey laws, works, as I said "always doing, but never feeling satisfied that what they do is good enough". These are overcomers. They don't have faith that Jesus took care of it all, they always feel they have to do something or their life is a mess. They feel they are so bad that nothing they do will ever be enough to satisfy God. There is nothing that we can do to make ourselves any better. Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us". By the grace of God go I.
CHB
Paul also said that those that try to save themselves by DOING anything are rejecting Christ and the cross. They are not trusting God to be their saviour by trying to be their own saviour.
This do and done are the crux that seperates Christianity from all other religions.
All others say reach, strive, be good. and if you work hard enough to keep all the rules and regulations, maybe, just maybe, you'll be able to make it to heaven.
Christianity says a person can't do anything to save themselves. When they realize this and acknowledge it, they cry out for God to reach down and be the "lifter of their head"
A wondrous thing (besides God loving us) is that logically, if there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation, it follows that once God has indwelt us (His Spirit being our seal or gaurantee we belong to him) there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation. Jesus= the author and finisher of our faith.
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 23, 2012, 11:15:44 PM
Paul also said that those that try to save themselves by DOING anything are rejecting Christ and the cross. They are not trusting God to be their saviour by trying to be their own saviour.
This do and done are the crux that seperates Christianity from all other religions.
All others say reach, strive, be good. and if you work hard enough to keep all the rules and regulations, maybe, just maybe, you'll be able to make it to heaven.
Christianity says a person can't do anything to save themselves. When they realize this and acknowledge it, they cry out for God to reach down and be the "lifter of their head"
A wondrous thing (besides God loving us) is that logically, if there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation, it follows that once God has indwelt us (His Spirit being our seal or gaurantee we belong to him) there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation. Jesus= the author and finisher of our faith.
Amen. Not by anything that we have or can do but because of what Christ did. :banana: :dsunny:
CHB
Quote from: CHB on October 24, 2012, 12:08:04 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 23, 2012, 11:15:44 PM
Paul also said that those that try to save themselves by DOING anything are rejecting Christ and the cross. They are not trusting God to be their saviour by trying to be their own saviour.
This do and done are the crux that seperates Christianity from all other religions.
All others say reach, strive, be good. and if you work hard enough to keep all the rules and regulations, maybe, just maybe, you'll be able to make it to heaven.
Christianity says a person can't do anything to save themselves. When they realize this and acknowledge it, they cry out for God to reach down and be the "lifter of their head"
A wondrous thing (besides God loving us) is that logically, if there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation, it follows that once God has indwelt us (His Spirit being our seal or gaurantee we belong to him) there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation. Jesus= the author and finisher of our faith.
Amen. Not by anything that we have or can do but because of what Christ did. :banana: :dsunny:
CHB
:iagree: :dsunny:
Quote from: CHB on October 23, 2012, 10:57:58 PMWW, did you read my post?
Yes I did. I ended my previous post with
QuoteMaybe we are discussing different things
Anyway good we agree :gimmefive:
This is what makes me crazy--if all we know is a gift from God and grace and righteousness are a gift that is not earned, if apart from Him I can do nothing, then why then ask me to do something? Submit yourself a living sacrifice, do not be conformed to the world... the list of do's is long and I have beat myself up with them for 20 evangelical years. Indeed the experience of evil humbles man--its mission all too aparent for me. I am coming to the end of trusting in myself--it's futile. Ok, with that realization, I am terrified at those list of do's. They mock me as I cannot do them consistently. That is part of the paradox--it's all a gift and by God's will, oh and by the way, you have to do things. What? Forgive me for belaboring this point. It really does make me crazy in trying to reconcile it.
Hi Deena,
you're right. On the one hand, God does everything. On the other hand you are being asked to "do"
IMO, The difference is God doing it through you rather than you doing it to please God or "score brownie points" with him.
Understand no one does things consistently when it comes to dying to self and letting the Spirit move you to the point where he is doing everything. Here is a Jeff parable:
When I was a child my first bicycle broke. I tried to fix it but I couldn't. I started crying and my Father came out and asked what was wrong. I told him and he told me not to worry that "We" could fix it. He had me put my little hands on his big strong ones and soon, the bike was repaired. When my mother came home I excitedly told her that Daddy and I had fixed my broken bike (as if he couldn't have fixed it without my help)
In the same way, Father can do all the "fixing" He wants to without us but it is His good pleasure to have us participate. He doesn't expect you to help with the whole world, He brings you to people or brings people to you that God's spirit working through you acheives his purpose. :gimmefive:
Quote from: Deena on October 24, 2012, 01:28:13 PM
This is what makes me crazy--if all we know is a gift from God and grace and righteousness are a gift that is not earned, if apart from Him I can do nothing, then why then ask me to do something? Submit yourself a living sacrifice, do not be conformed to the world... the list of do's is long and I have beat myself up with them for 20 evangelical years. Indeed the experience of evil humbles man--its mission all too aparent for me. I am coming to the end of trusting in myself--it's futile. Ok, with that realization, I am terrified at those list of do's. They mock me as I cannot do them consistently. That is part of the paradox--it's all a gift and by God's will, oh and by the way, you have to do things. What? Forgive me for belaboring this point. It really does make me crazy in trying to reconcile it.
Hi Deena,
I use to have this same problem and still do at times I have to remind myself of what Paul said "for it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of his good pleasure".
This is the answer to the whole problem. Once you come to see that it is God working in you that does ALL of the works that you think you need to do then you are succeding in dying to self. Not that you are the one succeding but it is God working in you. It took me a long time to see this but once you do you will be more at peace with yourself.
I know most don't agree with what I am going to say here but the apostles all were teachers to the Israelites, they taught the Israelites New Covenant because this was what was promised to them. The New Covenant has do's and don'ts attached to it. This is what confuses us. We have to rightly divide the word of truth. Paul came to see things a little different after a little while when God showed him the Mystery that applies to both Jew's and Gentiles and it includes what I said about God working in you. It is no longer I that do any works but God working in me. I will send you a link to an article in a pm about this if you don't mind?
My Uncle got sick and came to stay with me till he was able to go it on his own. The preacher and his wife came to see him while he was with me. The preachers wife was bragging on me for taking care of my uncle. I said, "I do not take any credit for anything, it is God doing the works not me". She said, yes, but you have to let him". I said, "I don't have to LET God do anything, I'm not that powerful". She said, "God can't work in you if you don't let him". :eek:
CHB
And God only smacked Paul upside the head :doh:on the road to Damascus because Paul "Let Him" :laughing7:
And pharoah LET god harden his heart toward the Jews
And King Cyrus Let God use him (tho he wasn't a believer)
David Let God use him? All through the bible there is never an instance of people "letting" God use them rather than, "God told me to do this so I did it"
C'mon These ET'ers think that their will is stronger than God's. That's their excuse for "God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves there by their refusing to "accept" Jesus.
QuoteThese ET'ers think that their will is stronger than God's.
That's a leftover from the origin of the ET doctrine. Pagan gods also seem had problems staying in control.
QuoteThat's their excuse for "God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves there by their refusing to "accept" Jesus.
And for getting God of the hook for torture.
Yes, this same preacher said "You have to choose to accept Jesus, He doesn't interfere with man's free will, it would be like rape.
Well, we know that God is the one who changes the mind and someday this preacher will bow the knee and confess that it is God and not man who decides things. God speed that day.
CHB
Thanks to all for putting up with my ranting and encouraging me. For some reason I have been going through a season of fear. You all have helped me today. Does anyone have an article or book to racommend on dealing with fear? Hebrews 10 is also helping.
"Perfect love casts out all fear" Instead of living in the right now, we as humans either dwell on a guilty past or project fear of what might happen in the future.
Jesus took care of all our guilt by removing all our sins, he takes care of the fearful future by promising he will never leave us or forsake us, that nothing happens to us that we can't handle and hasn't been through God's filter. The more we trust and love God the less our fears of the future
(really, all our fears concern the future because we can't be afraid of what has passed and we do not fear what is currently happening. Granted, sometimes the fear is what might happen in the next few minutes, hours, or days,weeks,years, etc. but it is still future.)
But fear is a sign that complete love and trust in the Lord is off somewhat.
I think of it a little as the hero of a TV series. 200 episodes, they encounter a lot of stuff where you think, "How will they ever escape/avoid/get out of/ this current mess they are in?" The best shows are where you think there is no way out and yet it happens and not by some silly contrivance of the writers but by an ingenious idea.
In life, we sometimes come to that, "How will I ever get out of this/escape/ avoid what's coming." Trust and love God, don't trust, but love others.
"For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed to him..." (your life)
Quote from: CHB on October 24, 2012, 05:33:41 PM
Yes, this same preacher said "You have to choose to accept Jesus, He doesn't interfere with man's free will, it would be like rape.
Well, we know that God is the one who changes the mind and someday this preacher will bow the knee and confess that it is God and not man who decides things. God speed that day.
CHB
:gthumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on October 24, 2012, 04:31:56 PM
Quote from: Deena on October 24, 2012, 01:28:13 PM
This is what makes me crazy--if all we know is a gift from God and grace and righteousness are a gift that is not earned, if apart from Him I can do nothing, then why then ask me to do something? Submit yourself a living sacrifice, do not be conformed to the world... the list of do's is long and I have beat myself up with them for 20 evangelical years. Indeed the experience of evil humbles man--its mission all too aparent for me. I am coming to the end of trusting in myself--it's futile. Ok, with that realization, I am terrified at those list of do's. They mock me as I cannot do them consistently. That is part of the paradox--it's all a gift and by God's will, oh and by the way, you have to do things. What? Forgive me for belaboring this point. It really does make me crazy in trying to reconcile it.
Hi Deena,
I use to have this same problem and still do at times I have to remind myself of what Paul said "for it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of his good pleasure".
This is the answer to the whole problem. Once you come to see that it is God working in you that does ALL of the works that you think you need to do then you are succeding in dying to self. Not that you are the one succeding but it is God working in you. It took me a long time to see this but once you do you will be more at peace with yourself.
I know most don't agree with what I am going to say here but the apostles all were teachers to the Israelites, they taught the Israelites New Covenant because this was what was promised to them. The New Covenant has do's and don'ts attached to it. This is what confuses us. We have to rightly divide the word of truth. Paul came to see things a little different after a little while when God showed him the Mystery that applies to both Jew's and Gentiles and it includes what I said about God working in you. It is no longer I that do any works but God working in me. I will send you a link to an article in a pm about this if you don't mind?
My Uncle got sick and came to stay with me till he was able to go it on his own. The preacher and his wife came to see him while he was with me. The preachers wife was bragging on me for taking care of my uncle. I said, "I do not take any credit for anything, it is God doing the works not me". She said, yes, but you have to let him". I said, "I don't have to LET God do anything, I'm not that powerful". She said, "God can't work in you if you don't let him". :eek:
CHB
:happyclap:
parallel perceptions of paradoxical paradigms providing periodic paroxysms of perturbation
Quote from: eaglesway on October 25, 2012, 03:24:46 AM
parallel perceptions of paradoxical paradigms providing periodic paroxysms of perturbation
CONFLICTING FEELINGS (John Newton, 1779)
Strange and mysterious is my life.
What opposites I feel within!
A stable peace, a constant strife;
The rule of grace, the power of sin:
Too often I am captive led,
Yet daily triumph in my Head,
Yet daily triumph in my Head.
I prize the privilege of prayer,
But oh! what backwardness to pray!
Though on the Lord I cast my care,
I feel its burden every day;
I seek His will in all I do,
Yet find my own is working too,
Yet find my own is working too.
I call the promises my own,
And prize them more than mines of gold;
Yet though their sweetness I have known,
They leave me unimpressed and cold
One hour upon the truth I feed,
The next I know not what I read,
The next I know not what I read.
I love the holy day of rest,
When Jesus meets His gathered saints;
Sweet day, of all the week the best!
For its return my spirit pants:
Yet often, through my unbelief,
It proves a day of guilt and grief,
It proves a day of guilt and grief.
While on my Savior I rely,
I know my foes shall lose their aim,
And therefore dare their power defy,
Assured of conquest through His name,
But soon my confidence is slain,
And all my fears return again,
And all my fears return again.
Thus different powers within me strive,
And grace and sin by turns prevail;
I grieve, rejoice, decline, revive,
And victory hangs in doubtful scale;
But Jesus has His promise passed,
THAT GRACE SHALL OVERCOME AT LAST,
THAT GRACE SHALL OVERCOME AT LAST.
John 5;7 sir, the invalid replied,'I have no-one to help me in the pool when the water is disturbed/perturbed
now the earth was formless and empty,darkness was over the surface of the deep,and the spirit
of God was hovering over the waters
Let there be en expanse between the waters,to seperate water from water[paradox]
......here a great number of disabled people used to lie-the blind the lame the paralyzed...........
Do you want to get well?....... Get up! Pick up your mat and walk[paradigm]
twin pools= Bethsaida/parallel
Two very cool posts, Thanx Good Report, Sheila !
getting back to the original subject -
How about
Matthew 12:36
"But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment.
There is judgment then for all. Who among us has never spoken an idle word?
Quote from: eaglesway on October 25, 2012, 03:24:46 AM
parallel perceptions of paradoxical paradigms providing periodic paroxysms of perturbation
:laugh:
Delightfully delectable display of diction! :banana:
Quote from: sheila on October 25, 2012, 04:12:03 AM
John 5;7 sir, the invalid replied,'I have no-one to help me in the pool when the water is disturbed/perturbed
now the earth was formless and empty,darkness was over the surface of the deep,and the spirit
of God was hovering over the waters
Let there be en expanse between the waters,to seperate water from water[paradox]
......here a great number of disabled people used to lie-the blind the lame the paralyzed...........
Do you want to get well?....... Get up! Pick up your mat and walk[paradigm]
twin pools= Bethsaida/parallel
Wow, very cool. Isn't there a divine paradox thread that you started awhile back Sheila? Will have to search for that later. :)
Quote from: lomarah on October 25, 2012, 02:47:07 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 25, 2012, 03:24:46 AM
parallel perceptions of paradoxical paradigms providing periodic paroxysms of perturbation
:laugh:
Delightfully delectable display of diction! :banana:
:gimmefive: