I came across this while reading my Bible today.
Psalm 95:7 - 11 Young's Literal Translation
To-day, if to His voice ye hearken,
8 Harden not your heart as [in] Meribah, As [in] the day of Massah in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers have tried Me, Have proved Me, yea, have seen My work.
10 Forty years I am weary of the generation, And I say, `A people erring in heart -- they! And they have not known My ways:'
11 Where I sware in Mine anger, `If they come in unto My rest -- !'
Psalm 95:7 - 11 NIV
Today, if only you would hear his voice,
8 "Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah,[a]
as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested me;
they tried me, though they had seen what I did.
10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, 'They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.'"
Having a hard time reconciling this with UR. Can anyone help me out? :declare:
I realize it says nothing about hell or damnation, but, it seems to indicate that those being spoken about will not ever be at peace with the Lord.
Young's Literal's last line sounds very different than NIV's, but I can't get a grip on it.
As I am very new at Christian UR, I look at my Bible reading differently these days........a renewing of my mind, you might say.
Thank you in advance.
just as all men have bore the image of the corrupt one,so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt one.
....first the natural,then the spiritual man. the 'wicked' generation perishes in the wilderness...flesh and blood can not inherit.
..the inheritance is through Christ..the spiritual man.
..........Pharoah pictured the prince of this world..Egypt pictured this world...Israel in slavery pictured man's captivity and slavery
to sin. The promised land of Caanan pictured our eternal inheritance.........the old man of sin[in corrupt image] must die in all
men...and man made a new creature[spiritual image of Christ]
those of us called near to Him in this life..are even admonished to put the deeds of the flesh to death..so that we may live
spiritually now[through token of Holy spirit]
.........
I understand the analogy, sheila. And, I agree with the symbolism, too. But, that in itself still doesn't give me peace about the last line.
If it had said punishment, death or fire, then, I would be fine, as I know there are other interpretations of these, than what we associate with Hell. Even Hell or Gehenna, would be easier for me to work with, as I understand the original meaning, versus the meanings we have come to know.
The NIV version of "They shall never enter my rest."is unsettling, but the Young's translation gives me encouragement, but I don't really understand what it is trying to say, exactly. It seems to me, it is saying something like: I don't want them to think that I will allow them to disturb my peace, with their wayward ways. Now, an interpretation along those lines would be fine. But, I have a Concordia NIV concordance, so, this verse would be interpreted in terms of ED/ET.
It never ceases to amaze, how a word, or its position, or some punctuation, will change the whole meaning of a sentence or segment.
I think finding a clear explanation of Young's interpretation, could be very helpful to me.
Shalom Dandelion,
Comparing the scripture you quoted with where the quote is also found in Numbers, as well as Hebrews, the Hebrew word אמ does not mean 'never', but, in this instance, an emphatic 'not'. To my understanding, this simply has to do with not entering Canaan and participating in the rest he had for them there, as happened with those who did enter the land:
Yahweh gave them rest all around, according to all that he swore to their fathers. Not a man of all their enemies stood before them. Yahweh delivered all their enemies into their hand.
(Jos 21:44)
Adding the nuance 'never' is an interpretation not necessary for understanding the text. It reads quite nicely from an Hebraic point of view as 'if' (used in the sense of certainty).
Nothing is said about them not entering into the true rest of God that was foreshadowed by the physical land of Canaan, which Sheila nicely wrote about. To me when I read my Hebrew text it is simply saying that they would certainly not enter the rest he just got through speaking about, the physical land of Canaan, due to their unbelief that they could take it.
Hope that helps,
Ronen
Yes, it does, Ronen.
Thank you so much! :Peace2:
"10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, 'They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways.'"
With that attitude and mind set, certainly there is no rest........but Lord of Lords and King of Kings, the Creator...changes things, molds, and breaks.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man unto a bruised thing, And sayest, Turn back, ye sons of men.
Thank you, everyone!
Step by step........
:Peace2:
The word translated as 'never' is 'im (pron eem). My hebrew dictionary states that in oaths it means 'shall not', but no reference is made to an eternal 'no'. Otherwise it could also mean 'if', and in fact in hebrews 3,11 paul quoted the verse translating the word im as 'if', in greek ei (pron ay). In this case we should think of it as something like 'if they enter my resting i will punish them'. Note also that as somebody already said the word menuhah has as its first meaning 'resting place' (i. E. Israel). Anyway no clear reference to eternity is made if any.
Quote from: Dandelion on July 13, 2015, 04:46:50 AM
I came across this while reading my Bible today.
Psalm 95:7 - 11 Young's Literal Translation
To-day, if to His voice ye hearken,
8 Harden not your heart as [in] Meribah, As [in] the day of Massah in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers have tried Me, Have proved Me, yea, have seen My work.
10 Forty years I am weary of the generation, And I say, `A people erring in heart -- they! And they have not known My ways:'
11 Where I sware in Mine anger, `If they come in unto My rest -- !'
Psalm 95:7 - 11 NIV
Today, if only you would hear his voice,
8 "Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah,[a]
as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested me;
they tried me, though they had seen what I did.
10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, 'They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.'"
Having a hard time reconciling this with UR. Can anyone help me out? :declare:
I realize it says nothing about hell or damnation, but, it seems to indicate that those being spoken about will not ever be at peace with the Lord.
Young's Literal's last line sounds very different than NIV's, but I can't get a grip on it.
As I am very new at Christian UR, I look at my Bible reading differently these days........a renewing of my mind, you might say.
Thank you in advance.
God's rest, in those verses refers to the promised land, the land of plenty. For forty years they wandered in the wilderness, as it says in Hebrews(cptr 3 or 4) "they perished because of their unbelief", meaning they fell in the wilderness where"every unbelieving member perished".
This does not equate to "hell". it equates to "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"- which is our promised land. If we believe(trust in Him) we "cease striving(be still) and kno that (He) is God". We have joy and peace in Him, and the bounty of the promised land(fruit of the Spirit is ours).
If we are unbelieving(fearful, striving in the flesh, not trusting) we are still "saved"- God still loves us....."If we are faithless He is faithful still, if our hearts condemn us, He is greater than our hearts" ... But we may not experience the bounty that is ours in Christ.
Hebrews 2, 3 and 4 talk about this as the "Sabbath rest of the believer- where we cease from our own works and enter into those works that were prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them. Some of these types of verses are applied by ETr's to eternal destiny, but they are mostly about living in Christ in the now- like in Romans, "Awake O sleeper and arise from the dead and the light of Chrst will shine on you."
The unbelieving members who fell in the wilderness did not 'go to hell"- they just failed "to inherit the promises", even as many believers, bound all their lives in law or fear or religion,fail to inherit the promise of sonship in Christ- the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Reading hebrews 2-4 gives a lot of insight to the verses in Psalm 95, as those chapters are built around those verses.
Ah, yes......to rest in our God's loving arms and know His peace, that surpasses all understanding.
Definitely where I want to be. :cloud9:
Thank you, eaglesway!
D.
also...I think this same thing is what happened when God sent His son to them..and they hardened their heart and did not hear
His voice[if only you had listened and known the way of peace] and failed...Jerusalem[peace] Peace with God/reconciliation through His
Son. 40 years later 70 ad city destroyed...failed to enter the promised seed/rest. Yet,Paul speaks of all Israel being saved..and Israel
being blinded in part..that the fullness of the gentiles come in.
out of Egypt...with great miracles of deliverance.....wicked generation perishes in wilderness does not enter into promised land.
just a different manifestation of the same principle of wheat/tares, old man must perish/new man in Christ...
natural man/corrupt image/spiritual man/incorrupt image.
serpent bit in the wilderness..and serpent up on a pole to live..the very same principle and theme. imo
Great thread!! :thumbsup:
I love how a look into the original word(s) used usually clears things up very nicely! :smile: Funny how many points of translation lean not quite right! Praise the Lord for His truth revealing Spirit - and Truth revealing Word! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Dandelion on July 13, 2015, 04:46:50 AM
I came across this while reading my Bible today.
Psalm 95:7 - 11 Young's Literal Translation
To-day, if to His voice ye hearken,
8 Harden not your heart as [in] Meribah, As [in] the day of Massah in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers have tried Me, Have proved Me, yea, have seen My work.
10 Forty years I am weary of the generation, And I say, `A people erring in heart -- they! And they have not known My ways:'
11 Where I sware in Mine anger, `If they come in unto My rest -- !'
Psalm 95:7 - 11 NIV
Today, if only you would hear his voice,
8 "Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah,[a]
as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested me;
they tried me, though they had seen what I did.
10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, 'They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.'"
Having a hard time reconciling this with UR. Can anyone help me out? :declare:
I realize it says nothing about hell or damnation, but, it seems to indicate that those being spoken about will not ever be at peace with the Lord.
Young's Literal's last line sounds very different than NIV's, but I can't get a grip on it.
As I am very new at Christian UR, I look at my Bible reading differently these days........a renewing of my mind, you might say.
Thank you in advance.
well, like you say..it mentions nothing about 'eternal torment in hell'...went to 'Biblehub'and saw the word 'never' is not in the original Hebrew and most translations dont have 'never' so dont know why 'never' is even in the translation you are using.Didnt they all die in the desert and never made it to the 'rest' of the Promised Land ?..isnt that maybe, partly, what it means ?
OH my lovely thread :HeartThrob:
Beautiful truths shared none entered His rest this is the examples of their struggles under the law of death [sin entered by one man old adam] carnal natured is death
proving there is none righteous no not one , there is none that understands without the mind of Christ ! total and complete obedience to the desire of God !
You know even Moses did not enter it till Christ came to open Heaven for all .... that was the sole purpose of God sending His son that death could not hold anyone any longer !! Detu34 his eye not dim nor his strength left him[ I see this as spiritually the law is always in effect] Deut 31 1So Moses went and spoke these words to all Israel. 2And he said to them, "I am a hundred and twenty years old today; I am no longer able to come and go, and the LORD has said to me, 'You shall not cross this Jordan.' 3"It is the LORD your God who will cross ahead of you; He will destroy these nations before you, and you shall dispossess them. Joshua is the one who will cross ahead of you, just as the LORD has spoken.
We know that Joshua was a type of Christ[anointed one ] that if Joshua would have given them rest they would NOT have spoken of another day [HEB4 ]
The Sabbath rest is Jesus Christ in my opinion , HE is our rest [ our peace our joy our LIFE our ALL ] Come unto Me all you whom are heavy and bound I WILL GIVE YOU REST!
What was sealed could not be opened but by nothing but the Lamb of God the blood of Jesus Christ the innocent blood of slaughter for the sinful
the Mount of Transfiguration [law led of Moses & prophets] our proof I do believe those are the firstfruits that make up the HEAD [ foundation laid / twelve tribes and twelve apostles walls / being 24 elders with crowns of Life giving glory to God in and thought and for THE LORD JESUS CHRIST what is found in Him is being laid and built upon right down to the feet / Teaching of the image /likeness of GODS one of a kind SON ...
Its all so awesome :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
from Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Unto whom I sware in my wrath,.... Being angry with them, he sware for the confirmation of what he said; the form of the oath was, "as truly as I live"; he sware by himself, for he could swear by no greater; see Numbers 14:21.
that they should not enter into my rest; the land of Canaan, or Israel, as Kimchi; which the Lord provided, promised, and gave to the Israelites, as their rest; the land of Israel and Jerusalem, as Jarchi; or the house of the sanctuary, the temple, as the Targum; which Jehovah chose for his rest
from Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Unto whom I sware in my wrath - See the notes at Hebrews 3:11.
That they should not enter into my rest - Margin, as in Hebrew, "If they enter into my rest." The "rest" here referred to was the land of Canaan. They were not permitted to enter there as a place of "rest" after their long and weary wanderings, but died in the wilderness. The meaning is not that none of them were saved (for we must hope that very many of them were brought to the heavenly Canaan), but that they did not come to the promised land.
even 'traditional' commentators interpret this as referring to Canaan and nothing to do with 'eternal hell'.
Thank you, everyone. I had written this question a while ago, and between revisiting this and your comments, I realize how much I have grown, even in a short time, to understand the message, if you will, of UR. I have much of that to thank all of you for, and for your continued support and friendship in Christ.
Be blessed, dear friends.
D. :gpg:
Quote from: Dandelion on January 22, 2016, 03:29:44 AM
Thank you, everyone. I had written this question a while ago, and between revisiting this and your comments, I realize how much I have grown, even in a short time, to understand the message, if you will, of UR. I have much of that to thank all of you for, and for your continued support and friendship in Christ.
Be blessed, dear friends.
D. :gpg:
GOD HAS GIVEN
ALL inclusive ,some
Amazing grace sis ...in
Our Lord Jesus Christ :HeartThrob: !! :dsunny:
God bless everyone with more and more of HIM :grouppray: