Tentmaker Forum

Hi Everyone,
In my efforts to understand the greek translations more I stumbled upon this article: http://www.daily-bible-study-tips.com/Reader-Questions-Answered/Greek-Matthew-25-46.htm :Chinscratch:

your thoughts as always would be appreciated as it does seem to make sense initially what hes saying however it is 5am in the morning so I may need to keep going over it.
It does have me wondering ast the minute and whilst I dont believe in ET I am still trying to convince myself on UR and until my knowledge grows I will be like a ship in the wind if you like!

Quote from: Truth seeker on March 17, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Hi Everyone,
In my efforts to understand the greek translations more I stumbled upon this article: http://www.daily-bible-study-tips.com/Reader-Questions-Answered/Greek-Matthew-25-46.htm :Chinscratch:

your thoughts as always would be appreciated as it does seem to make sense initially what hes saying however it is 5am in the morning so I may need to keep going over it.
It does have me wondering ast the minute and whilst I dont believe in ET I am still trying to convince myself on UR and until my knowledge grows I will be like a ship in the wind if you like!

please do not forget the importance of the Septuagint in these discussions.

The Septuagint is critically/crucially  important in understanding how the people to whom the New Testament was written understood the teachings of the New Testament.  For it was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament (Greek being the universal language at that time), in use by the Jews of Jesus time.

The Septuagint is quoted many times by the NT writers and even by Jesus Himself. Therefore, it is an authoritative translation.

A quick bit of Septuagint research yielded a verse in the Septuagint which uses exactly the same Greek word that's used in Matthew 25:46, aiōnion   αἰώνιον.Genesis 9:16  says , "And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting [Heb: olam aionion/eonian] covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth."

Is this covenant  truly eternal/ everlasting—endless?. No, it cannot be everlasting/ eternal/endless because this earth will pass away along with all it's living creatures..all the animals, insects, fish and humans.When this earth passes away there'll be no more need for this covenant. I know there are many more examples but its late, I'm tired so this will do for now to prove 'aionion' does not mean eternal in every instance in the Bible.

BTW, the writer you quote makes a mistake. He says' In the LXX (Septuagint) , 'aionios' is used only to translate the Hebrew word olam..'
I have proved this assertion wrong because in Gen 9:16,  'aiōnion' is used to translate 'olam', not 'aionios'.

I know there are several instances where the word 'aionion' (the same word used in Mt 25:46) is used in the Septuagint to translate 'olam' where it cannot mean 'eternal'. So, the writer of that article is mistaken.

I'll have a look at 'kolasis' at a later time.

I have found the concluding definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) most helpful. Concerning aiõnios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16).

If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.

The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1 Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20), and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28). :dsunny:

 :banana:
thank you Darryl I had a feeling you would reply to this :dsunny: I feel bad sometimes asking but I hope it time I can help others understand too. It can get frustrating when I fall on a possible issue like the link I gave so while I am looking for answers help from those such as yourself are invaluable! I dont want to return to the ET understanding I just cant see that as true and the more study I do and the more help I get the more I hope it will drift into the past!
whats your thoughts on the sentence
" Whatever we say about the punishment, we have to be willing to say exactly the same thing about the life. Furthermore, the New Testament uses aionios to describe God, the Holy Spirit, the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and the honor and power of Jesus Christ. Are those "for an age" or "eternal"?

if the punishment is not eternal and the sentence sounds like its implying the same ending for both if the punishment is an age how does this work for the life?

I think, with regards to aion and its forms, that there is another aspect that ET proponents do not take into account, namely that many early UR believers had Greek as their mother tongue, including more famous cases such as Origen and Clementine of Alexandria. We can safely assume they knew their mother tongue better than we can possibly hope to through research, and if aion and its various forms precluded UR, they would have had no case to make. Not only this, but Augustine, who was so influential in the spread of ET, acknowledged that his own Greek was poor, not being his natural language. Indeed, in many ways the transition from UR to ET in the early centuries ran parallel with the shift from Greek to Latin as the primary tongue of the church.

This all being the case, it is rather preposterous to claim that those early Greek speakers were mistaken in their understanding of aion and its forms.

Quote from: Truth seeker on March 17, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Hi Everyone,
In my efforts to understand the greek translations more I stumbled upon this article: http://www.daily-bible-study-tips.com/Reader-Questions-Answered/Greek-Matthew-25-46.htm :Chinscratch:

your thoughts as always would be appreciated as it does seem to make sense initially what hes saying however it is 5am in the morning so I may need to keep going over it.
It does have me wondering ast the minute and whilst I dont believe in ET I am still trying to convince myself on UR and until my knowledge grows I will be like a ship in the wind if you like!

Hi, Truth seeker !.Regarding 'kolasis' I have found a passage in the Septuagint where 'kolasis' is used and it definitely means 'correction' not retributive vindictive punishment.

Ezekial 44 9-14
9 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary. 10"But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity. 11"Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister to them'.

12"Because they ministered to them before their idols and became a stumbling block of iniquity to the house of Israel, therefore I have sworn against them," declares the Lord GOD, "that they shall bear the punishment ( kolasis ) for their iniquity.

13 'And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a priest to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to the things that are most holy; but they will bear their shame and their abominations which they have committed.14"Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the house, of all its service and of all that shall be done in it'.

So, what is this 'punishment' for these backslidden priests ?. Not death, not torment or torture. No, Yahweh punishes the Levites for their participation in idolatry by not allowing them to act as priests in the new temple.

  Ezekiel 44:13 ►
13 'And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a priest to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to the things that are most holy; but they will bear their shame and their abominations which they have committed.

'Kolasis' definitely means 'correction' here (to teach these priests the error of their ways)  , not retributive vindictive punishment.

Please note these sinful priests were still allowed to keep 'charge of the house'.Verse 14"Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the house, of all its service and of all that shall be done in it'.

Yahweh is merciful and there is purpose to His corrective chastisement. :dsunny:

Quote from: Shev on March 17, 2016, 10:06:44 PM
I think, with regards to aion and its forms, that there is another aspect that ET proponents do not take into account, namely that many early UR believers had Greek as their mother tongue, including more famous cases such as Origen and Clementine of Alexandria. We can safely assume they knew their mother tongue better than we can possibly hope to through research, and if aion and its various forms precluded UR, they would have had no case to make. Not only this, but Augustine, who was so influential in the spread of ET, acknowledged that his own Greek was poor, not being his natural language. Indeed, in many ways the transition from UR to ET in the early centuries ran parallel with the shift from Greek to Latin as the primary tongue of the church.

This all being the case, it is rather preposterous to claim that those early Greek speakers were mistaken in their understanding of aion and its forms.

thats very interesting, never knew any of that  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Truth seeker on March 17, 2016, 08:39:45 PM
:banana:
thank you Darryl I had a feeling you would reply to this :dsunny: I feel bad sometimes asking but I hope it time I can help others understand too. It can get frustrating when I fall on a possible issue like the link I gave so while I am looking for answers help from those such as yourself are invaluable! I dont want to return to the ET understanding I just cant see that as true and the more study I do and the more help I get the more I hope it will drift into the past!
whats your thoughts on the sentence
" Whatever we say about the punishment, we have to be willing to say exactly the same thing about the life. Furthermore, the New Testament uses aionios to describe God, the Holy Spirit, the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and the honor and power of Jesus Christ. Are those "for an age" or "eternal"?

if the punishment is not eternal and the sentence sounds like its implying the same ending for both if the punishment is an age how does this work for the life?

you know the hymn, 'Rock of ages '?. God is Eternal of course but He also is the God of the Ages. Throughout His plan of salvific salvation for humankind God deals in a series of 'Ages'. The Biblical 'Ages' make a fascinating study.

Also, Jesus said that 'aionion life' is the life of knowing God and Jesus.Jesus described it more in a 'qualitative sense' than a 'quantitative sense'.As Westerners we find it hard to grasp the Hebrew mindset concerning 'aionion life'. We Westerners trend to think in terms of linear 'time' and miss the subtleties inherent in the  terms 'olam' and 'aionion'.

Quote from: Truth seeker on March 17, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Hi Everyone,
In my efforts to understand the greek translations more I stumbled upon this article: http://www.daily-bible-study-tips.com/Reader-Questions-Answered/Greek-Matthew-25-46.htm :Chinscratch:

your thoughts as always would be appreciated as it does seem to make sense initially what hes saying however it is 5am in the morning so I may need to keep going over it.
It does have me wondering ast the minute and whilst I dont believe in ET I am still trying to convince myself on UR and until my knowledge grows I will be like a ship in the wind if you like!

Well, for what concernes kolasis, the author forgot to check the word "kolazo", the verb the word kolasis comes from, for its first meaning is "to prune" (Thayer's dictionary). The verses that are quoted all include the fact that the punishment inflicted was in order to "change" someone, not to "revenge".

For what concerns aionios, please allow me to read Aion, Aionios, Translated Everlasting, Eternal, Shown To Denote Limited Duration (by J. W. Hanson, you can find it in the Scholar's Corner). It is enough to fill every hole.

Quote from: Truth seeker on March 17, 2016, 08:39:45 PM
:banana:
thank you Darryl I had a feeling you would reply to this :dsunny: I feel bad sometimes asking but I hope it time I can help others understand too. It can get frustrating when I fall on a possible issue like the link I gave so while I am looking for answers help from those such as yourself are invaluable! I dont want to return to the ET understanding I just cant see that as true and the more study I do and the more help I get the more I hope it will drift into the past!
whats your thoughts on the sentence
" Whatever we say about the punishment, we have to be willing to say exactly the same thing about the life. Furthermore, the New Testament uses aionios to describe God, the Holy Spirit, the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and the honor and power of Jesus Christ. Are those "for an age" or "eternal"?

if the punishment is not eternal and the sentence sounds like its implying the same ending for both if the punishment is an age how does this work for the life?

Hi, Truth seeker.  I have found yet another instance in the Septuagint Old Testament of the use of 'aionion' (αἰώνιον ) , the Greek word mistranslated as 'eternal' in Mt 25:46. This instance proves beyond any doubt that 'aionion' in Mt 25:46 cannot mean 'eternal'.

In Genesis 17:8  it says, 'The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting (aionion, αἰώνιον )  possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

Obviously the physical land of Canaan, where Abraham was then dwelling,  was not to be an everlasting possession to Abraham's descendants.This entire earth will pass away one day including (obviously ) the land of Canaan. Therefore the word 'aionion' ('olam' in the Hebrew) in Genesis 17:8 cannot mean 'eternal' . It must have something to do with 'age' as it is indeed translated in Young's Literal Version. 'and I have given to thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, the whole land of Canaan, for a possession age-during, and I have become their God.' (Young's Literal Version ).

This proves beyond any doubt that 'aionion' in Mt 25:46 cannot mean 'eternal'.There also are other instances in the Septuagint where 'aionion' does not mean 'eternal' which prove that 'aionion', the word used in Mt 25: 46, does not mean 'eternal'. 

Quote from: Truth seeker on March 17, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Hi Everyone,
In my efforts to understand the greek translations more I stumbled upon this article: http://www.daily-bible-study-tips.com/Reader-Questions-Answered/Greek-Matthew-25-46.htm :Chinscratch:

your thoughts as always would be appreciated as it does seem to make sense initially what hes saying however it is 5am in the morning so I may need to keep going over it.
It does have me wondering ast the minute and whilst I dont believe in ET I am still trying to convince myself on UR and until my knowledge grows I will be like a ship in the wind if you like!

To his comments about aion. I don't believe the aionios zoe means immortality, and therefore neither do I believe that aionios judgment means Eternal judgement. The Bible does talk about immortality promised to believers, such as "this mortal must put on immortality," but I believe that aionios zoe refers to Christ within us, in the ages, age abiding life. He resides internally right now.

http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.html

All good stuff to study :dsunny:

Quote from: darryl on March 19, 2016, 10:42:29 AM
Hi, Truth seeker.  I have found yet another instance in the Septuagint Old Testament of the use of 'aionion' (αἰώνιον ) , the Greek word mistranslated as 'eternal' in Mt 25:46. This instance proves beyond any doubt that 'aionion' in Mt 25:46 cannot mean 'eternal'.

In Genesis 17:8  it says, 'The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting (aionion, αἰώνιον )  possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

Obviously the physical land of Canaan, where Abraham was then dwelling,  was not to be an everlasting possession to Abraham's descendants.This entire earth will pass away one day including (obviously ) the land of Canaan. Therefore the word 'aionion' ('olam' in the Hebrew) in Genesis 17:8 cannot mean 'eternal' . It must have something to do with 'age' as it is indeed translated in Young's Literal Version. 'and I have given to thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, the whole land of Canaan, for a possession age-during, and I have become their God.' (Young's Literal Version ).

This proves beyond any doubt that 'aionion' in Mt 25:46 cannot mean 'eternal'.There also are other instances in the Septuagint where 'aionion' does not mean 'eternal' which prove that 'aionion', the word used in Mt 25: 46, does not mean 'eternal'.

Hey Darryl,

I once went through the entire LXX and read every verse containing the adjective aionion.  This is one of my favorites...  The children of God will build or repair the "eternal" wastes...

Isaiah 61

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

And they shall build the old [aionion] wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

good find !..thanks !  :dsunny:

Quote from: darryl on March 30, 2016, 07:21:47 AM
good find !..thanks !  :dsunny:

There is another one that is even much more compelling, but it might be a translation error by those who translated the Hebrew into the LXX.  It literally says the "you will forget your everlasting contempt"  using the exact same greek words as are used in this passage:

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον.

The passage is here:

Isaiah 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

However, the Hebrew does not use olam in this passage.  It uses a similar-looking word (meaning "of thy youth") that the translators may have mistaken for olam.  At any rate, it's hard to believe that expert translators would make a translation saying "you will forget your everlasting contempt" if "everlasting" really meant "everlasting".  You would think they would notice that their translation is self-contradictory.

thank you so much for all your help everyone! not been on for a good while but I'm still here lol. I have read a really good but lately that's helped similar to "hope beyond Hell" its called "raising hell". I have it on pdf if anyone wants it.

Another article on the same topic that might be of interest :
http://moments.nbseminary.com/archives/114-punishment-kolasis-kolazein-%E2%80%93-eternal-or-otherwise-matthew-2546-acts-421-2-peter-29-1-john-418/

Quote from: ps on May 03, 2016, 02:41:55 PM
Another article on the same topic that might be of interest :
http://moments.nbseminary.com/archives/114-punishment-kolasis-kolazein-%E2%80%93-eternal-or-otherwise-matthew-2546-acts-421-2-peter-29-1-john-418/

this does look very good! though I hadn't time to read it all.. (dang it!)

Quote from: Truth seeker on March 17, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Hi Everyone,
In my efforts to understand the greek translations more I stumbled upon this article: http://www.daily-bible-study-tips.com/Reader-Questions-Answered/Greek-Matthew-25-46.htm :Chinscratch:

your thoughts as always would be appreciated as it does seem to make sense initially what hes saying however it is 5am in the morning so I may need to keep going over it.
It does have me wondering ast the minute and whilst I dont believe in ET I am still trying to convince myself on UR and until my knowledge grows I will be like a ship in the wind if you like!

Another thing.. to my way of thinking.. this is the separation of the wheat from tares.. and sheep from goats.. when Jesus returns, is what I believe it says.. (there's no mention of lake of fire at Jesus' return)

I believe the gathering of tares to be burned is poetic language (clever talk by our Father and Jesus) for the gathering to armageddon.. but the wheat is gathered into His barn (at His return)

the wolves are gathered to armageddon which, I believe will be that hatred the adversary has (rev 12:last verse) and the world has for Israel, wanting to prey on her, in the manner of wolves..

:2c: :Peace2: :gsmile:

Quote from: darryl on March 17, 2016, 12:32:28 PM

BTW, the writer you quote makes a mistake. He says' In the LXX (Septuagint) , 'aionios' is used only to translate the Hebrew word olam..'
I have proved this assertion wrong because in Gen 9:16,  'aiōnion' is used to translate 'olam', not 'aionios'.

This is not evidence of the 'spirit' of his statement being wrong.  As that author has mentioned kolasis and kolasin being the same word, so are aionios and aionion the same word.  Gary and Tony indicate that here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/EternalPunishmentNotTrueToGreek.html
also tossing aioniou into the mix.

Quote from: darryl on March 17, 2016, 12:32:28 PM
I know there are several instances where the word 'aionion' (the same word used in Mt 25:46) is used in the Septuagint to translate 'olam' where it cannot mean 'eternal'.

And that author states that olam can be used to indicate concepts other than eternal, in the same sentence you referred to regarding his reference to use of aionios for olam, "aionios is used only to translate the Hebrew word olam, which, depending on the context, means a variety of things in the general area of time, eternity, duration, and the existence of various dynasties, places, and things".

Quote from: darryl on March 17, 2016, 12:32:28 PM
So, the writer of that article is mistaken.

He seems to be in general agreement with you about olam, and you perhaps not aware there's only a grammatical difference in aionios/anionion, not a semantic difference.

Quote from: Lorenzo on March 18, 2016, 07:48:41 PM
Well, for what concernes kolasis, the author forgot to check the word "kolazo", the verb the word kolasis comes from, for its first meaning is "to prune" (Thayer's dictionary).

It doesn't appear that he forgot, as he does mention kolazo and pruning (section heading "Kolasin vs. Kolazo vs. Pruning"), although has found from other reference works the possible horticultural origin aspect isn't really applicable to most uses of the actual word[1] used (which is not kolazo) - the other article I referenced earlier also covers that, also with reference to specific works of greek, which I believe represent time periods both before and after new testament writers are likely to have written.

Quote from: Lorenzo on March 18, 2016, 07:48:41 PM
The verses that are quoted all include the fact that the punishment inflicted was in order to "change" someone, not to "revenge".

Were you referring to these verse references (Jeremiah 18:20 (note that that the cited phrase does not appear in most modern translations or [apparently] the Hebrew); Ezekiel 14:3; Ezekiel 14:4, 7; Ezekiel 18:30; Ezekiel 43:11; and Ezekiel 44:12.)?  (Those, along with Daniel 6:12,13 per Dr. Perkins cover all uses of the entire word family in generally accepted as inspired books of Septuagint.  He indicates there are multiple other uses in some of the other books.)

(If not those verses, then what? But...)

If so, I observe that in each of those passages, the "change" effected by the punishment doesn't seem to be in the best interest of any of those to whom the word(action/state) is applied(applies), but more likely to the benefit of others.  As if those to whom the "punishment" applies are the pruned part, the part that is removed (perhaps cast into a fire, or outer darkness?), not what remains after pruning - which would still fit with the notion of pruning - but not so much the idea of "correction".

(septuagint - brenton)
Jer 18:20 Jeremiah was to be the cut off one, the one separated from that current life, and from those his testimony was in effect afflicting.
Eze 14:3,4,7 the iniquities of those sinning have set up their 'punishment' (separating, cutting off) from God, such that he did not intend to answer them - with v8 being the result
Eze 18:30 - encourages "be converted and turn away from all your ungodliness, and it shall not become to you the punishment of iniquity", i.e. if you repent then you won't be separated, v31, death will be avoided
Eze  43:11 - (seems kind of out there, I think similar to 44:12, but Dr. Larry Perkins in that article thought otherwise)
Eze 44:12 the Levites were to be separated God's holy things and areas, kept out of the holy of holies.

There is one more verse that apparently involves the same word family, mentioned by Dr. Larry Perkins (***although I have not been able to observe/spot it myself, with tools I've accessed***),
Daniel 6:12,13 - As Daniel was being thrown into the lion's den - it seems pretty clearly to be punishment, with the 'change' not seen as correctively positive.  Any positive correction, from the point of view of those applying, could only have been achieved prior to that affliction/application of punishment.  They weren't going to bring him back from death.

I also observe that in a number of those verses, the punishment/separation/cutting-off was to effect a permanent result - Jeremiah's desired death was going to be a permanent separation from life, (already mentioned) Daniel's (expected) death would be a permanent separation from life, the priest's separation was to be permanent for the full duration of their lives.  While Eze 18:30 allowed for returning, it could only have been up to the point of the fully inflicted punishment, death - their death would seem to be the end of any further possibility to turn away from ungodliness (similar to Daniel's situation, but with godly/wicked sides reversed).

New Testament usage also seems to generally reflect that usage (cutting off, with potential permanance - I will address eternal/aionios/etc in another reply I anticipate) - the orig passage, Matt 25:46 (in its context), Acts 4:21 (where they wanted to separate/cut-off (likely kill) Peter and company), 2Peter 2:9 keeping unrighteous separated/cut-off until day of judgement, 1Jn 4:18 - fear of 'being separated, cut-off' (if one loves, this need not be feared).

[1]
As a pertinent aside into how words do not necessarily reflect the meanings of their roots, consider the following from http://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-root-words.html (http://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-root-words.html):

Quote
Meaning Does Not Always Equal the Definition

Some root words make less sense. For example, take the word apology. The root word "logy" is the study of something, and apo is from or away from. So, if you interpret the meaning of apology based on root words alone, you would see that it means "away from the study of something?" Not a very good explanation. When we see apology we think sorry or sad about something. So, although many words have root words, knowing the meaning of the roots won't always provide you with a clear definition.

Although, that said, I have suggested above how pruning could still apply, but the pruning not being "corrective" nor beneficial to all entities involved and likely not for those who were to be 'pruned' in many of the biblical instances.

***A very recent observation:  Some resource indicates kolasis (G2851) is from kolaphos rather than from kolazo***.  That resource also indicates G2852, kolaphizo, is also from kolaphos.  kolaphos is indicated to mean "a blow from the fist", "a buffeting, a blow".  These can be seen in the HELPS - word studies on biblehub, and seem credited to R. Trench, so I guess must be from one of his publications, although I have not been able to verify that. 

Perhaps the kolaphos root possibility has been previously mentioned somewhere on site, as my research indicated Roger Tutt is aware of this, and I've seen that he has contributioned here, but I hadn't run across it yet in anything I've read here.

But, there's certainly a lot I haven't read.

Quote from: darryl on March 19, 2016, 10:42:29 AM
This proves beyond any doubt that 'aionion' in Mt 25:46 cannot mean 'eternal'.There also are other instances in the Septuagint where 'aionion' does not mean 'eternal' which prove that 'aionion', the word used in Mt 25: 46, does not mean 'eternal'.

I offer contrary new testament evidence that it likely can reasonably mean eternal, at least as regards the kingdom and the life being entered into, continuing forward from that entry forever.

In Luke 1:31-33, Jesus reign/kingdom is spoken of by the angel, and is stated as A)covering ages (apparently plural of aion), and B) that the ages will be without end.  (This general idea also seems to reflected in Isaiah 9:6,7, though there to only aspects of that reign.)

I submit that ages without end is effectively eternal from some point forward.

And it appears to be the same kingdom that is being spoken of in the parable surrounding Matt 25:46, as well as the other parables of heaven close by.

Someone has stated that the zoe(n) 'life' is inherently longer ('god-life')and thus the aionion/s word with life thus takes on a longer time frame than it does when coupled with punishment - consider the following... 

The zoe(n) idea is contradicted by passages in Luke (12:15 and 16:25), where the same 'life' word (zoe(n) G2222) is used without an adjective from the family, and clearly refers to temporal life, not any extended god-life.  So, when the adjective is present it is providing clarification that the extended life is meant - it gives meaning, not takes/receives meaning from the zoe(n) life.  There are other NT uses where a 'guess' does have to made from context in the absence of the aion-adjective.  But those two are clearly temporal, and sufficient to show that in new testament usage zoe(n) does not of itself indicate anything more than earthly life.

I agree with the first Matt 25:46 article author, assuming within the passage that the two adjective instances would carry any different weight is unlikely, in the absence so far of anything to  indicate otherwise.

Reference has also elsewhere been made to Isaiah 57:16, about God not being angry forever.  But, that entire chapter, as with this parable, speaks of two groups - the righteous and the unrighteous/wicked.  The statement about the lapse of anger appears directed at the righteous, those who as a result of what they already suffered, were sorrowful in heart, and turned back from their sins and iniquity.  I grant that this is not obvious from all but one translation of the masoretic I've looked at, that being YLT.  The septuagint is much clearer regarding those who are sorrowful.  But, that particular verse, v16, falls in the midst of verses speaking of the righteous, several verses prior to a 'But'/and contrasting the wicked, who will be tossed and not have rest. 

This idea of the wicked/righteous/rebellious/obedient, and their different treatment  is also seen in other OT passages, including at least Jer 18:6-10 of nations, Eze 18:29-32 and Eze 33 of individuals.  In the Ezekiel passages, the opportunity to repent is apparently only available prior to death.  As in Matt 25:32-46, there is nothing to indicate its available after final punishment/judgment(/death) inflicted.

I have some other observations as well, but perhaps this is sufficient for TruthSeeker's consideration, and to challenge CST as well :), in addition to responding to darryl's statement.

..this may not pertain, but the answer I came up with which satisfies me - as to truth, and I'm not easily satisfied - is to me there is only one "eternal" the Father, but who also gave the Son, the firstborn and beginning of all creation, "to have life in himself".

And to me the kingdom of God is ultimate reality.. everything came out from God and is returning to God.. not as formless, but as the creation being exactly what his blueprint is that it will be.. That in essence he is still creating it all.. from angel to universe to man and woman and the planet, etc..

I am not at all sure that any humans at all will go to the Lake of Fire! Even for an age or ages.. How can I think that?

Well the two in revelation chapter 19 are not, imo, thrown "alive" into the lof, but "active" - The two, being (1)the beast, world beast/body being an institution of man active(alive, acting) at the time of Jesus' return , and (2)the false prophet, being the false teaching and its 'prophecy' (implied) which has turned christendom/western civilization on its ear. (I do not think this is how this verse is usually viewed. But am convinced of it. And as of those verses, no humans in the lof.)

"age and age" - whenever I think, see, or come across this phrase, my mind immediately jumps to "age" as the millennium, "and age" as judgment 'day'.

To me, one of the very biggest pieces to the Revelation and Bible puzzle, is an overall plan. Just what is going on? I figure it is learning.. "Learning good from evil" ...The whole purpose of all of this! The whole human race, and the angels, are having it proven to our eyes, heart and mind "good from evil" (what I also think of as life from death, because Yahweh, I believe is both Life, and Perfection-so imperfection "missing the mark"/sin is the opposite of God/Life)

Following these thoughts, I can't help but see Bible prophecy (with its central thing in latter days being the Book of Revelation) as being this life, and all of human history, as God's truth proving drama - Proving to all, that to turn or wander from God in any way can only ever lead to self destruction.. a wisp of self destructive smoke.. the smoke of (lesson of) which shall rise up forever and ever.. Obviously "Satan that old dragon and serpent" did not believe that! But it simply cannot be done.. if one wishes to "live" that is. To me good and evil, is the same as life and death - real death, not death as another form of life as humanity has been beguiled with. (imo)

Am I rambling?.. not really. You see, I cannot think of our heavenly Father as wasteful. Is He going to wake up all those never saved (yet) to simply toss them directly into fiery trial/Lake of Fire?

Not logical - logical being related to logos!

Think of it! What a glorious opportunity to hammer home all the Truth, to every heart and mind, by having a great day of the serious and grave review of all things! History, not a pretty picture. Should be plenty of weeping, even for the elect (to view all..) - I believe the not yet saved will repent and be reconciled during the 'day' of judgment.. and any stubborn hard cases will go to the lof - aiōnios

It's only at the end of that 'day' (age) - I believe, that is said, or carried out "those not believing - not written in the book "of Life" - will go to the lof - http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html - 2nd image explains

Jude 7 -- "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha... are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.  YLT of course, using the word "age-during"

Jude 7 "eternal / age-during"

LSJ Gloss:
αἰώνιος
lasting for an age ---- this, with the Dodson 2nd, is the one I'm going with.. I think most of the "forever" etc, is due to pagan/gnostic culture preconception of inherent immortality rather than "we shall put on immortality"

Dodson:
αἰώνιος
eternal, unending
age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

Strong's:
αἰώνιος
perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well)
Derivation: from G165;

KJV Usage: eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

G165
Thayer:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

For Synonyms see entry G5801
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Eternal
Everlasting

αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well)
KJV Usage: eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Quote from: ps on May 04, 2016, 10:59:37 AM

Quote from: darryl on March 19, 2016, 10:42:29 AM
This proves beyond any doubt that 'aionion' in Mt 25:46 cannot mean 'eternal'.There also are other instances in the Septuagint where 'aionion' does not mean 'eternal' which prove that 'aionion', the word used in Mt 25: 46, does not mean 'eternal'.

I offer contrary new testament evidence that it likely can reasonably mean eternal, at least as regards the kingdom and the life being entered into, continuing forward from that entry forever.

In Luke 1:31-33, Jesus reign/kingdom is spoken of by the angel, and is stated as A)covering ages (apparently plural of aion), and B) that the ages will be without end.  (This general idea also seems to reflected in Isaiah 9:6,7, though there to only aspects of that reign.)

I submit that ages without end is effectively eternal from some point forward.

And it appears to be the same kingdom that is being spoken of in the parable surrounding Matt 25:46, as well as the other parables of heaven close by.

Someone has stated that the zoe(n) 'life' is inherently longer ('god-life')and thus the aionion/s word with life thus takes on a longer time frame than it does when coupled with punishment - consider the following... 

The zoe(n) idea is contradicted by passages in Luke (12:15 and 16:25), where the same 'life' word (zoe(n) G2222) is used without an adjective from the family, and clearly refers to temporal life, not any extended god-life.  So, when the adjective is present it is providing clarification that the extended life is meant - it gives meaning, not takes/receives meaning from the zoe(n) life.  There are other NT uses where a 'guess' does have to made from context in the absence of the aion-adjective.  But those two are clearly temporal, and sufficient to show that in new testament usage zoe(n) does not of itself indicate anything more than earthly life.

I agree with the first Matt 25:46 article author, assuming within the passage that the two adjective instances would carry any different weight is unlikely, in the absence so far of anything to  indicate otherwise.

Reference has also elsewhere been made to Isaiah 57:16, about God not being angry forever.  But, that entire chapter, as with this parable, speaks of two groups - the righteous and the unrighteous/wicked.  The statement about the lapse of anger appears directed at the righteous, those who as a result of what they already suffered, were sorrowful in heart, and turned back from their sins and iniquity.  I grant that this is not obvious from all but one translation of the masoretic I've looked at, that being YLT.  The septuagint is much clearer regarding those who are sorrowful.  But, that particular verse, v16, falls in the midst of verses speaking of the righteous, several verses prior to a 'But'/and contrasting the wicked, who will be tossed and not have rest. 

This idea of the wicked/righteous/rebellious/obedient, and their different treatment  is also seen in other OT passages, including at least Jer 18:6-10 of nations, Eze 18:29-32 and Eze 33 of individuals.  In the Ezekiel passages, the opportunity to repent is apparently only available prior to death.  As in Matt 25:32-46, there is nothing to indicate its available after final punishment/judgment(/death) inflicted.

I have some other observations as well, but perhaps this is sufficient for TruthSeeker's consideration, and to challenge CST as well :), in addition to responding to darryl's statement.

will you agree that in the LXX, 'aionion' sometimes means 'not eternal' ?....or are you saying 'aionion' ALWAYS means 'eternal' throughout the entire Greek Bible. I believe I gave an instance or two where 'aionion' definitely does not mean 'eternal' or 'never ending ' in the LXX. If this is true how do you know 'aionion' means 'eternal' in Mt 25:46 ?. You cannot know that for sure...therefore my point stands.

I often post about this issue. I am in agreement with ps, but also with you darryl.

It can mean eternal, but it often does not mean eternal.

For instance (in brief)

"that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace"

en tois aiosin (Eph 2:7) here aion is not referring to eternity, but age/worlds to come

"by faith we know that the age/worlds were framed by the word of God" katertisthai tous aionon rhemati {Heb 11:3)

In these place aion/aiona/aionian clearly refer to specific times/periods/worlds

In Hebrew thought, periods of time were as worlds also, that is why in Hebrews 1:2

2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. epoiesin tous aionas

This is the letter to the Hebrews and the issue I am working around to is that the word aion comes from "olam", which could mean "world, age, ancient time, distant future, eternity, forever"

olam could mean all these things becasue it is a type of adjective that simply means "indeterminate, unkown or unkowable" and it finds its full meaning in association with the subject it defines.

So in Gen 6:4 it means the far distant past

In Gen 49:26 it means the far distant future

In Exodus 21:6 it means a slaves lifetime

To this day among Hebrews olam means both world and forever depending on the context and the subject olam describes......

(from a Jewish site- Hebrew Language Detective)
In the prayers of Rosh HaShana, we say hayom harat olam היום הרת עולם. Artscroll translates this phrase as "today is the birth(day) of the world", and offers the following comment:

The phrase is in the present tense, for on Rosh Hashanah of each year the Creation is renewed in its entirety...Although the root הרה usually refers to conception, it it sometimes is used to mean birth. This is its meaning here. Alternatively, according to Rabbeinu Tam, Creation took place on two levels: in Tishrei God decided that He would create the world, and in Nissan He did so. Thus Rosh Hashanah is literally the day on which the world was conceived in God's plan.(http://www.balashon.com/2010/09/olam.htm (http://www.balashon.com/2010/09/olam.htm)l)

In Psalms God is called El Olam, and we are told it means God who endures forever.... but it really means very much more, hearkening to Jesus' words "no man has seen God at any time" or Paul in 1 Tim 5:16

" who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion(kratos aionion). Amen."

....and here we see in 1 Tim 6 aionion means forever, because God's dominion is eternal.

Aion/aionion is not as flexible a word as olam- which by the way occurs over 450 times in the OT. Olam was frequently doubled by the hebrews ("olam olam") when it meant eternal.

In the case of "El Olam"....olam means more than "God of the ages", it means the inscrutable, unknowable, invisible God who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light" He is immortal. He dwells forever. he is the God of the ages because by faith we know the age/worlds were formed by the word of His mouth, so that the invisible things are greater than the visible things, the olam things are hidden, difficult to see because of tremendous depth or breadth or distance in time or scope of thought or extremity of wisdom...." etc, etc I guess you get the idea of what I am saying, but a lot fo folks disagree with me on this, and I hate to say it but I think it is because this "aion is a period of time with a beginning and an end because Aristotle and Plato say so" has become an artifact of UR RELIGION.....

Please, nobody shoot me please...... LOLOL

Quote from: darryl on May 07, 2016, 03:14:42 PM
will you agree that in the LXX, 'aionion' sometimes means 'not eternal' ?

Yes.

Quote from: darryl on May 07, 2016, 03:14:42 PM
....or are you saying 'aionion' ALWAYS means 'eternal' throughout the entire Greek Bible.

No.

Quote from: darryl on May 07, 2016, 03:14:42 PM
I believe I gave an instance or two where 'aionion' definitely does not mean 'eternal' or 'never ending ' in the LXX.

Yes.

Quote from: darryl on May 07, 2016, 03:14:42 PM
If this is true how do you know 'aionion' means 'eternal' in Mt 25:46 ?.

Because of the contextually relevant kingdom, since in Luke 1:33 the kingdom is spoken of as being ages without end (i.e. unending), and that kingdom is the context of the separation into life (inherit kingdom) and punishment (depart into fire).

Quote from: darryl on May 07, 2016, 03:14:42 PM
You cannot know that for sure...

I think Luke 1:33 and the entire parable context of Mt 25:46 is an extremely strong indication otherwise.

Quote from: darryl on May 07, 2016, 03:14:42 PM
therefore my point stands.

Assuming you mean this point

Quote from: darryl on March 19, 2016, 10:42:29 AM
This instance proves beyond any doubt that 'aionion' in Mt 25:46 cannot mean 'eternal'.

In Genesis 17:8  ...

then no. 

I observe, there is significant biblical doubt that your point stands as regards the coincident (right) 'kingdom' (life - zoe(n)), and the (left) 'kingdom' punishment (kolasi-) in the parable of Mt 25:(31-)46.

General observation:  One indication of usage does not necessarily cover all indications of usage.  Even multiple indications of a specific usage do not mean a word does not have different meaning elsewhere.    darryl, you seem to acknowledge this...?

Observation specific to Mt 25:(31-)46, Luke 1:33 is extremely strong evidence, that given the 'life' and 'punishment' being coincident with that kingdom, aionio- does practically mean from the start (of the kingdom), continuous, permanent while moving forward, unending, as the kingdom with which they are both associated is indicated as being just that, ages without end (unending from starting point, continuous, permanent, indefinite, moving continuously onward.)  You could even drop the aionio- from both life and punishment, and still derive that meaning if you realize that the coincident kingdom was of ages without end (unending) - but, given that is not explicit in this particular parable, the aionio- clarifies that at the point used.  (Used also regarding the 'fire' prepared for the devil and his angels, that fire also seeming to be the specific form of 'punishment' spoken of coincident with 'life'.  v46 simply seems to be a repetition/summary of entering kingdom vs fire, life being kingdom and punishment being fire.)

Revisiting...
Even without the aionio-, a number of kolasi- instances in septuagint/LXX have a permanence associated with them, in regards to the context within which that kolasi- is assigned/performed.  (In Mt 25:(31-)46 the context is the 'kingdom'.) Several of the instances involve a physical death (permanent end to) that preceding temporal life (the death itself being unending with respect to that life).  The usage regarding the priests (Eze 44:-12+ LXX) involved a permanent (continuous within its temporal 'life' context, or unending within that context) separation from God, no longer to enter the holy-of-holies, where God resided.  Perhaps very similar to the separation indicated in the 'kingdom' context of Mt 25:(31-)46, and likely spoken of in 2Th 1:9 'away from the presence of the Lord' (there also being spoken of the 'penalty'/'punished'(ment) (dike G1349, a justice/judgement/sentence assigned) they will be 'paying' in that 'away from' situation.)

Of course, much of this train of thought would be useless, if the kingdom/reign of Luke 1:33 is not the kingdom spoken of in Mt 25:(31-)46 and surrounding.  Something that would require strong evidence to successfully indicate otherwise to me...  (Anticipates rustling of pages, review of many bits...)  The observations concerning the permanence/unending of kolasi- within the context/extent of the parable's kingdom, whatever that extent might be, would not be affected.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 08, 2016, 08:20:35 AM
I often post about this issue.

Yes, I've seen some of the posts.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 08, 2016, 08:20:35 AM
and I hate to say it but I think it is because this "aion is a period of time with a beginning and an end because Aristotle and Plato say so" has become an artifact of UR RELIGION.....

And I believe the second article I referenced strongly indicates why where the word began, is not where it was at the time of Jesus and the apostles, even in external literature, and even earlier than that in the LXX/septuagint.  It also covers 'kolasi-' as a loss in some LXX/septuagint passages, not likely corrective in nature.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 08, 2016, 08:20:35 AM
Please, nobody shoot me please...... LOLOL

I find myself unlikely to be in a position to cast the first projectile. :)

Quote from: ps on May 09, 2016, 11:58:34 AM
Because of the contextually relevant kingdom, since in Luke 1:33 the kingdom is spoken of as being ages without end (i.e. unending), and that kingdom is the context of the separation into life (inherit kingdom) and punishment (depart into fire).

But nowhere it states those people stay in the fire forever.
Jesus never used words like torture or punishment. He used the word correction. Never ending correction would mean the One applying correction fails.

Read the link below and you will see all the testing and stuff really is about refining gold.
Before 288BC the Greek word for torment had just one meaning: Checking the purity of gold.

As odd as it may sound "lake fire and brimstone" sounded positive in the ancient mind.
Fire was used to disinfect stuff. We also know fire can be holy -> Pentecost flames.
Brimstone was (and still is) used to purify. Back then it was used to treat skin infections, drive out pests from a house, purify a house after someone died in it.
Lake is just another word for the Temple Laver which was used to purify tools, vessels, sacrifices and priests. Some sources even state the laver was symbolically containing hyper purified gold.
So 3 words that are closely connected to purification. (Revelation contains other references to Temple rituals)

So for simplicity just assume the world ends January 1, 2022.
The holy people instantly start the eternal life and enter the kingdom.
The other people are sent to the lake. They stay there for a while and then join the holy people.
Even the saints have eternal life and it starts at the same time as the one of the holy people. That's what ET believes. They are alive but not in heaven but in hell. That should be a hint too. Kingdom and life might have a meaning that's not found in our western dictionaries.


http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

I don't much have a problem with the concept of kolasin as punishment. In fact, the concept that God uses sin to punish the sinner has been something I have been talking about for a while in a couple papers I have written on that. In fact, I actually think there is a strong case for "fire" as a symbol of sin, the erosion fire causes having correlation to the spiritual erosion that sin causes (Isaiah 9)

Cutting off doesn't imply eternal torment to me, though, by necessity. Moses was cut off of the Holy Land for his sin. Not every believer in universal salvation believes that judgement will be easy-peezy. I think it's a "fearful thing," However, I don't believe that aionios must mean eternal simply because the scripture refers to the Kingdom as having no end. If aionios meant "pertaining to aion-age" that could also indicate a different aspect to the kingdom than its nature of endlessness without any logical tension. It would be like saying the sky is big in one section of text and saying the sky is blue in another section. In fact, the passage in Luke 1:31-33 says that he will reign into the age AND of his kingdom there will be no end. I didn't see anything there about an endless age. The last part of that scripture could easily mean that the kingdom will continue along an endless succession of ages, not one endless age.

Paul refers to the kingdom as peace, joy and righteousness in the Holy Spirit. So, of course it has no end because the Spirit is immortal. However, there is a such thing called the Pentecostal Age. Jesus himself spoke of ages now, and ages to come, ages in succession. So, it makes sense to me that an aspect of judgement of "the goats" who reject righteousness would be lacking in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit during a certain age, making their judgment aionios and the reward for the sheep to be aionios as well, if they stay the course to the end of the age. Then they will be given immortality. So, again, the fact that the Spirit has no end, does not mean that judgment must be eternal.

Wow - I regret this came to be so long.

As I indicate at the end, I will not carry on any likely unresolveable dispute, as that will likely not benefit anyone, though if I see I will respond to false statements similar to the one concerning one greek word used for torment and the false indication that it would only imply testing in Jesus time and usage.

With this post I've pointed out (in some cases again) the basis of what I believe is overlooked and ignored by many URers.  To carry on further, unless some additional bible verses might clarify something, is likely to only become a dispute about words, which I wish to avoid.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM

Quote from: ps on May 09, 2016, 11:58:34 AM
Because of the contextually relevant kingdom, since in Luke 1:33 the kingdom is spoken of as being ages without end (i.e. unending), and that kingdom is the context of the separation into life (inherit kingdom) and punishment (depart into fire).

But nowhere it states those people stay in the fire forever.

Similarly, I am not aware of anywhere that it states those people come out of the fire.  The actual biblical indications, what is actually written, suggest they do not.

a)The Mt 25:(31-46) parable seems to indicate it will be, minimally, for the period of the kingdom
b)Luke 1:33 seems to indicate that kingdom will be without end.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Jesus never used words like torture or punishment. He used the word correction.

First, he clearly, based on Thayer's, Mt 8:29 and synoptics, should be understood to be capable of inflicting torment, and was by the demons around the graveyard.  (Torment, not testing.  Another word, peirazo G3985, seems to be the word commonly used in NT for the notion of testing [as well as 'tempting'], rather than the (presumed)G928etc carrying that meaning anywhere in NT.)

Second, that the word kolasi-, by Jesus time, did not generally mean correction, as evidenced in the LXX (something Jesus can safely be presumed to have been familiar with), and in other external literature contemporary to Jesus time, but did mean 'punishment'.  The idea of 'correction' as part of that word had apparently 'faded away' by time of LXX, and was no longer part of its meaning in several of the Eze passages, nor in at least some contemporary literature of Jesus/disciples' time.  The primary external literature example given in the 2nd reference is related to Josephus recording of Herod's escape from a possible death sentence, apparently a possible punishment (apparently kolasi-) for crimes for which he was tried, but there are apparently others - and the septuagint we can readily read translations of for ourselves, as well as reference analyzed greek versions. 

I do not see the idea of anything I would recognize as correction in several Eze passages - the idea present is that of complete, unending loss of a)temporal life, or b)permission to enter into God's presence, relative to the application of those 'kolasi-'.

Both of those seem to me punishment, and completely non-corrective with regards to the individuals to which they were addressed.  Jude 1:7 also speaks of punishment (dike G1349) of aionio- (G166) fire (pyr G4442), of Sodom and Gomorrah.  That word dike is perhaps less prone to the confusion surrounding kolasi-, and used with the same word picture, aionio- pyr, as Mt 25:41.

As regards the torture, while perhaps not directly part of kolasi-, that would seem to be implied by that lake of fire, which is apparently the punishment to be entered into, or departed into, presumably the torment the demons in Mt 8:29 were concerned about, receiving some like form of before 'the time'.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Never ending correction would mean the One applying correction fails.

This seems to incorrectly presume at least two things,
a)that the One is applying correction to those addressed, something that does not seem to be the case.
b)that the timeframe of opportunity for correction is limitless.

Regarding (a), I've already written.

Regarding (b) - I've seen multiple references to 2 Pet 3:9, and God's will that all be saved.  But (particularly with regard to UR use) the timeframe of that passage (2Pet 3:2-15 or so) often seems to be completely overlooked - the patience, the reason for Jesus delay, that salvation might be obtained,  before his return.  There is no indication there that salvation might still be available after his return - if so then the reason given for his delay is of no meaning - there would be no reason for delay.  And there are several places that address 'all' being saved (Israel being brought out of Egypt), subsequent to which those found to be unbelieving/displeasing are destroyed from among the 'all' (those who fell in the desert), with the spiritual parallel being drawn as to that of Christ and the world/church.  1Cor 10:1-5, Heb 3:14-18 with Heb 3:7-18 indicating those who were disobedient would not enter his rest (life?), not that their entrance into that rest might be delayed.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Read the link below and you will see all the testing and stuff really is about refining gold.
Before 288BC the Greek word for torment had just one meaning: Checking the purity of gold.

There is no mention of testing in the Mt and Eze passages I've mentioned, that I see... ?  Nor of torment, it would merely seem to be implied (by 'lake of fire', and the teaching that it would be better to enter 'life' having removed limbs to obtain that 'life', than to go to the geena-fire with all limbs intact).

That aside, the statement that the greek word for torment has 'just one meaning' appears to be completely false, being contradicted by Thayer's; it lists several definitions, with the second involving torture and the third being torture, supported by 2Macc 7:-13+, reportedly written well before 288AD (the date mentioned by the LoL article when I looked), and before Jesus time as well.  (Neither you nor he mentioned a specific word, so I presume he, and you, mean basanizo, G928.)  Take a look at 2Macc 7:13 and surrounding (excerpts below), and see if you still think its use in v13 meant only testing the purity of metals.  At the least, it was testing the purity of man, not metals - but I would certainly call what the men were subjected to torture.

(I realize the site desires accepted biblical canon for doctrinal use, but assume/hope the use for language consideration is acceptable.)
2Macc 7:3...13 <deleted - decided its probably a bit graphic for this site, but if you doubt Thayer's claim, I suggest you find and read it.  It's not pretty.>

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
As odd as it may sound "lake fire and brimstone" sounded positive in the ancient mind.
Fire was used to disinfect stuff. We also know fire can be holy -> Pentecost flames.
Brimstone was (and still is) used to purify. Back then it was used to treat skin infections, drive out pests from a house, purify a house after someone died in it.

Yes, brimstone and fire were used on Sodom and Gomorrah.  But the cleansing/purification there seems to have been of (benefit to) the earth.  Not so much the former inhabitants.  The one found righteous (Lot) was removed, and not subjected to that 'cleansing' process.  And Lot's wife, even though making it out of the town(s), failed to obey the directive to not look back, and was turned into a pillar of salt.  (Lest someone think OT, law, note too that Lot's righteousness was not based on law, as far as the bible records - the law is not yet recorded as given.  So his righteousness must have been based on faith, as was that of Abraham.)

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Lake is just another word for the Temple Laver which was used to purify tools, vessels, sacrifices and priests. Some sources even state the laver was symbolically containing hyper purified gold.
So 3 words that are closely connected to purification. (Revelation contains other references to Temple rituals)

So for simplicity just assume the world ends January 1, 2022.
The holy people instantly start the eternal life and enter the kingdom.
The other people are sent to the lake. They stay there for a while and then join the holy people.

Where is anything written that anyone sent to the 'lake of fire'/punishment comes out and/or join those in the kingdom (rest)?  Is this not going beyond what is written, warned against elsewhere, though not specifically on this topic?  And the (absolute?) denial of entry into rest is mentioned in Ps 95:11, Act 7:42, 13:18, Heb 3:11,18,  Heb 4:3,5,11, and similar displeasure with unbelievers in 1Cor 10:1-12.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Even the saints have eternal life and it starts at the same time as the one of the holy people. That's what ET believes. They are alive but not in heaven but in hell. That should be a hint too. Kingdom and life might have a meaning that's not found in our western dictionaries.


http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

I have glanced at it (at least enough to find your apparent incorrect date :) ), and don't see anything that substantively refutes what I have observed.  I do see a great deal of material but none that seems to address the timeframes that seem indicated in various bible passages, about when it is possible to repent, be purified and sanctified, and enter into life/rest.  And it covers the pruning notion again, but as with many statements on this site, seems to overlook that pruning leaves two end results, one which is to have benefited (a beneficiary), and one, which I think, can hardly be perceived to have benefited (the remaining refuse).

As far as everything else it mentions, I cannot see their pertinence to salvation beyond the timeframes that do seem to be biblically supported.  The foremost timeframe seeming to be before Jesus "coming"/return/revelation/revealing, and the start of his kingdom, which seems to fairly immediately follow.

I realize you disagree, and do not intend to enter into any ongoing dispute, should you reply.  If I see something explicitly false, as with the claim about the greek word for torment, I may attempt to address that.  (Since you have failed to indicate precisely which word, I've had to guess G928, which likely includes G929 and G931 as well, those covering most NT usage of word translated 'torment' in NASB.)

In summary
The general purpose of all my posts thus far, has been to point out what seem to be false claims regarding bible content and language used, the basic false one's addressed being that aionoi- cannot mean eternal (or unending), when it certainly seems to be true as regards the kingdom (Lk 1:33), that kolasi- means correction (not my understanding of something that does not restore its object/target and is unending within the application context, as passages in Eze and Mt 25:46 coincident with kingdom indicate), and zoe(n) in and of itself does not have any extended time-period attribute (as evidenced by at least two passages in Luke.)  I have also mentioned the timeframe apparently ignored though indicated in 2Pet3:-9+, and the false claim about one meaning for the greek word for torment in the time period in which the gospels were lived and written.  Other passages have been ref'ed along the way, but I think those are the primary points I have addressed.

FWIW - may not make any difference to your understanding - but...

Quote from: Seth on May 09, 2016, 08:53:08 PM
In fact, the passage in Luke 1:31-33 says that he will reign into the age AND of his kingdom there will be no end. I didn't see anything there about an endless age. The last part of that scripture could easily mean that the kingdom will continue along an endless succession of ages, not one endless age.

The 'reign' (G936) and 'kingdom'(G932) are, as with kolasi-/etc, a word 'family'.  One is verb form and one is noun form.  They are referring to the same thing, repetitiously.

your observation of 'age' is not correct - it is actually a plural form, i.e. ageS.  So, there is no difference between the reign/kingdom.  The reign of ageS, is also the kingdom without end.  One is the act he performs, the other is that which he performs it over, they are for any practical purpose the same entity.

Hence, he reigns for ageS, and those ageS of the kingdom which he reigns over, is without end, unending.

Unless I am greatly mistaken.

Quote from: ps on May 10, 2016, 10:01:25 AM
Wow - I regret this came to be so long.

As I indicate at the end, I will not carry on any likely unresolveable dispute, as that will likely not benefit anyone, though if I see I will respond to false statements similar to the one concerning one greek word used for torment and the false indication that it would only imply testing in Jesus time and usage.

With this post I've pointed out (in some cases again) the basis of what I believe is overlooked and ignored by many URers.  To carry on further, unless some additional bible verses might clarify something, is likely to only become a dispute about words, which I wish to avoid.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM

Quote from: ps on May 09, 2016, 11:58:34 AM
Because of the contextually relevant kingdom, since in Luke 1:33 the kingdom is spoken of as being ages without end (i.e. unending), and that kingdom is the context of the separation into life (inherit kingdom) and punishment (depart into fire).

But nowhere it states those people stay in the fire forever.

Similarly, I am not aware of anywhere that it states those people come out of the fire.  The actual biblical indications, what is actually written, suggest they do not.

a)The Mt 25:(31-46) parable seems to indicate it will be, minimally, for the period of the kingdom
b)Luke 1:33 seems to indicate that kingdom will be without end.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Jesus never used words like torture or punishment. He used the word correction.

First, he clearly, based on Thayer's, Mt 8:29 and synoptics, should be understood to be capable of inflicting torment, and was by the demons around the graveyard.  (Torment, not testing.  Another word, peirazo G3985, seems to be the word commonly used in NT for the notion of testing [as well as 'tempting'], rather than the (presumed)G928etc carrying that meaning anywhere in NT.)

Second, that the word kolasi-, by Jesus time, did not generally mean correction, as evidenced in the LXX (something Jesus can safely be presumed to have been familiar with), and in other external literature contemporary to Jesus time, but did mean 'punishment'.  The idea of 'correction' as part of that word had apparently 'faded away' by time of LXX, and was no longer part of its meaning in several of the Eze passages, nor in at least some contemporary literature of Jesus/disciples' time.  The primary external literature example given in the 2nd reference is related to Josephus recording of Herod's escape from a possible death sentence, apparently a possible punishment (apparently kolasi-) for crimes for which he was tried, but there are apparently others - and the septuagint we can readily read translations of for ourselves, as well as reference analyzed greek versions. 

I do not see the idea of anything I would recognize as correction in several Eze passages - the idea present is that of complete, unending loss of a)temporal life, or b)permission to enter into God's presence, relative to the application of those 'kolasi-'.

Both of those seem to me punishment, and completely non-corrective with regards to the individuals to which they were addressed.  Jude 1:7 also speaks of punishment (dike G1349) of aionio- (G166) fire (pyr G4442), of Sodom and Gomorrah.  That word dike is perhaps less prone to the confusion surrounding kolasi-, and used with the same word picture, aionio- pyr, as Mt 25:41.

As regards the torture, while perhaps not directly part of kolasi-, that would seem to be implied by that lake of fire, which is apparently the punishment to be entered into, or departed into, presumably the torment the demons in Mt 8:29 were concerned about, receiving some like form of before 'the time'.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Never ending correction would mean the One applying correction fails.

This seems to incorrectly presume at least two things,
a)that the One is applying correction to those addressed, something that does not seem to be the case.
b)that the timeframe of opportunity for correction is limitless.

Regarding (a), I've already written.

Regarding (b) - I've seen multiple references to 2 Pet 3:9, and God's will that all be saved.  But (particularly with regard to UR use) the timeframe of that passage (2Pet 3:2-15 or so) often seems to be completely overlooked - the patience, the reason for Jesus delay, that salvation might be obtained,  before his return.  There is no indication there that salvation might still be available after his return - if so then the reason given for his delay is of no meaning - there would be no reason for delay.  And there are several places that address 'all' being saved (Israel being brought out of Egypt), subsequent to which those found to be unbelieving/displeasing are destroyed from among the 'all' (those who fell in the desert), with the spiritual parallel being drawn as to that of Christ and the world/church.  1Cor 10:1-5, Heb 3:14-18 with Heb 3:7-18 indicating those who were disobedient would not enter his rest (life?), not that their entrance into that rest might be delayed.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Read the link below and you will see all the testing and stuff really is about refining gold.
Before 288BC the Greek word for torment had just one meaning: Checking the purity of gold.

There is no mention of testing in the Mt and Eze passages I've mentioned, that I see... ?  Nor of torment, it would merely seem to be implied (by 'lake of fire', and the teaching that it would be better to enter 'life' having removed limbs to obtain that 'life', than to go to the geena-fire with all limbs intact).

That aside, the statement that the greek word for torment has 'just one meaning' appears to be completely false, being contradicted by Thayer's; it lists several definitions, with the second involving torture and the third being torture, supported by 2Macc 7:-13+, reportedly written well before 288AD (the date mentioned by the LoL article when I looked), and before Jesus time as well.  (Neither you nor he mentioned a specific word, so I presume he, and you, mean basanizo, G928.)  Take a look at 2Macc 7:13 and surrounding (excerpts below), and see if you still think its use in v13 meant only testing the purity of metals.  At the least, it was testing the purity of man, not metals - but I would certainly call what the men were subjected to torture.

(I realize the site desires accepted biblical canon for doctrinal use, but assume/hope the use for language consideration is acceptable.)
2Macc 7:3...13 <deleted - decided its probably a bit graphic for this site, but if you doubt Thayer's claim, I suggest you find and read it.  It's not pretty.>

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
As odd as it may sound "lake fire and brimstone" sounded positive in the ancient mind.
Fire was used to disinfect stuff. We also know fire can be holy -> Pentecost flames.
Brimstone was (and still is) used to purify. Back then it was used to treat skin infections, drive out pests from a house, purify a house after someone died in it.

Yes, brimstone and fire were used on Sodom and Gomorrah.  But the cleansing/purification there seems to have been of (benefit to) the earth.  Not so much the former inhabitants.  The one found righteous (Lot) was removed, and not subjected to that 'cleansing' process.  And Lot's wife, even though making it out of the town(s), failed to obey the directive to not look back, and was turned into a pillar of salt.  (Lest someone think OT, law, note too that Lot's righteousness was not based on law, as far as the bible records - the law is not yet recorded as given.  So his righteousness must have been based on faith, as was that of Abraham.)

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Lake is just another word for the Temple Laver which was used to purify tools, vessels, sacrifices and priests. Some sources even state the laver was symbolically containing hyper purified gold.
So 3 words that are closely connected to purification. (Revelation contains other references to Temple rituals)

So for simplicity just assume the world ends January 1, 2022.
The holy people instantly start the eternal life and enter the kingdom.
The other people are sent to the lake. They stay there for a while and then join the holy people.

Where is anything written that anyone sent to the 'lake of fire'/punishment comes out and/or join those in the kingdom (rest)?  Is this not going beyond what is written, warned against elsewhere, though not specifically on this topic?  And the (absolute?) denial of entry into rest is mentioned in Ps 95:11, Act 7:42, 13:18, Heb 3:11,18,  Heb 4:3,5,11, and similar displeasure with unbelievers in 1Cor 10:1-12.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Even the saints have eternal life and it starts at the same time as the one of the holy people. That's what ET believes. They are alive but not in heaven but in hell. That should be a hint too. Kingdom and life might have a meaning that's not found in our western dictionaries.


http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

I have glanced at it (at least enough to find your apparent incorrect date :) ), and don't see anything that substantively refutes what I have observed.  I do see a great deal of material but none that seems to address the timeframes that seem indicated in various bible passages, about when it is possible to repent, be purified and sanctified, and enter into life/rest.  And it covers the pruning notion again, but as with many statements on this site, seems to overlook that pruning leaves two end results, one which is to have benefited (a beneficiary), and one, which I think, can hardly be perceived to have benefited (the remaining refuse).

As far as everything else it mentions, I cannot see their pertinence to salvation beyond the timeframes that do seem to be biblically supported.  The foremost timeframe seeming to be before Jesus "coming"/return/revelation/revealing, and the start of his kingdom, which seems to fairly immediately follow.

I realize you disagree, and do not intend to enter into any ongoing dispute, should you reply.  If I see something explicitly false, as with the claim about the greek word for torment, I may attempt to address that.  (Since you have failed to indicate precisely which word, I've had to guess G928, which likely includes G929 and G931 as well, those covering most NT usage of word translated 'torment' in NASB.)

In summary
The general purpose of all my posts thus far, has been to point out what seem to be false claims regarding bible content and language used, the basic false one's addressed being that aionoi- cannot mean eternal (or unending), when it certainly seems to be true as regards the kingdom (Lk 1:33), that kolasi- means correction (not my understanding of something that does not restore its object/target and is unending within the application context, as passages in Eze and Mt 25:46 coincident with kingdom indicate), and zoe(n) in and of itself does not have any extended time-period attribute (as evidenced by at least two passages in Luke.)  I have also mentioned the timeframe apparently ignored though indicated in 2Pet3:-9+, and the false claim about one meaning for the greek word for torment in the time period in which the gospels were lived and written.  Other passages have been ref'ed along the way, but I think those are the primary points I have addressed.

we could argue the semantics and etymology all the day and night long...what it boils down to is this...would a God of love torment His creatures in hellfire forever, with no end, no cessation, without pity or any mercy at all ?...hmmm, do you believe in such a god ?...could you worship such a god?...a God who, knowing He is ultimately going to torment and torture many of His creatures, continues to create them ?..I mean seriously, do you honestly, in your heart of hearts, believe in, love, and worship such a god ?...well, regardless of your answer I KNOW God is not like that..God is not a monster..He is a good God. a loving God...at least that is how I experience Him. The God I love and worship is not capable of tormenting precious human beings forever without end.

First of all I would like to show that Revelation not in every sense the last book of the Bible.
In 1Corinthians 15:22-28, we have:
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies - 26 the last enemy is done away--death;
No more reigning - 24  then--the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power
All subjected  - 25 For he must needs reign, until he shall put all his enemies under his feet :
No more death - 26 the last enemy is done away--death ;
All made alive, immortal (1Co 15:22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In Revelation we have:
Still rule -20:6; 22:5
Son still reigns -22:1-5; 21:5
Authority -21:24-25
Power -21:24-25; 22:2
Kings -21:24-26
Saints reign -22:5
Second death still exists -21:8
The nations still mortal -22:2

Quote from: ps on May 10, 2016, 10:01:25 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM

Quote from: ps on May 09, 2016, 11:58:34 AM
Because of the contextually relevant kingdom, since in Luke 1:33 the kingdom is spoken of as being ages without end (i.e. unending), and that kingdom is the context of the separation into life (inherit kingdom) and punishment (depart into fire).

But nowhere it states those people stay in the fire forever.

Similarly, I am not aware of anywhere that it states those people come out of the fire.  The actual biblical indications, what is actually written, suggest they do not.

a)The Mt 25:(31-46) parable seems to indicate it will be, minimally, for the period of the kingdom
b)Luke 1:33 seems to indicate that kingdom will be without end.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Jesus never used words like torture or punishment. He used the word correction.

First, he clearly, based on Thayer's, Mt 8:29 and synoptics, should be understood to be capable of inflicting torment, and was by the demons around the graveyard.  (Torment, not testing.  Another word, peirazo G3985, seems to be the word commonly used in NT for the notion of testing [as well as 'tempting'], rather than the (presumed)G928etc carrying that meaning anywhere in NT.)
[/quote]Testing can come with discomfort. Obviously testing gold for purity is useless if no refining is done.

QuoteThe idea of 'correction' as part of that word had apparently 'faded away' by time of LXX, and was no longer part of its meaning in several of the Eze passages, nor in at least some contemporary literature of Jesus/disciples' time.

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/Torment.html
Look for 288 AD about halfway that page.

I think you should look more at the whole context (most of the NT).
Many words, as the article I gave you in my previous message shows, are linked to purifying gold or testing coins to be genuine and similar things.
I know it's the very core of our chat, but in Revelation an other word is used that relates, or let's say potentially relates, to refining gold.
Refining is about removing impurities. Impurities=sin, bad habits, etc
We see similar removal of impurities in the form of pruning. Or God being called a launderers soap.

Quote

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM
Never ending correction would mean the One applying correction fails.

This seems to incorrectly presume at least two things,
a)that the One is applying correction to those addressed, something that does not seem to be the case.
b)that the timeframe of opportunity for correction is limitless.

Point a has be discussed so I skip that. Point b I don't understand or find it an odd conclusion.

Correction that never ends because the time frame is limitless still means correction failed.
The only successful correction is correction that ends. Could be an hour, a day, a million years, but it has an end.
Look at it this way.
Jesus hands over the kingdom to the father after all opposition is gone, submitted.
Opposition = sin = impurities in the gold
If people are still being tormented it means they still aren't pure gold. And that means they are not (fully) submitted yet.

QuoteRegarding (b) - I've seen multiple references to 2 Pet 3:9, and God's will that all be saved.  But (particularly with regard to UR use) the timeframe of that passage (2Pet 3:2-15 or so) often seems to be completely overlooked - the patience, the reason for Jesus delay, that salvation might be obtained,  before his return.  There is no indication there that salvation might still be available after his return - if so then the reason given for his delay is of no meaning - there would be no reason for delay.

What about the people born before He was born?
What about the people born after His return?

I think you reference to
Hebrews 9: 27 And inasmuch as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, judgment,

http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/hebrews-927-after-death-comes-judgement/msg122137/#msg122137

QuoteAnd there are several places that address 'all' being saved (Israel being brought out of Egypt), subsequent to which those found to be unbelieving/displeasing are destroyed from among the 'all' (those who fell in the desert), with the spiritual parallel being drawn as to that of Christ and the world/church.  1Cor 10:1-5, Heb 3:14-18 with Heb 3:7-18 indicating those who were disobedient would not enter his rest (life?), not that their entrance into that rest might be delayed.

Being saved as a person or as a nation is a bit different.
It's true that Israel was enslaved and man died during that period. And even who where released from slavery didn't enter the promised land. But that's on individual basis.
The nation Israel was rejected/punished/corrected/<enter your favorite word> by God.
But time after time we see God takes them back again.
The 'story' ends with olive trees being grafted in etc. But that simply means both trees are saved in the end. God won't permanently cast away nations.

QuoteThat aside, the statement that the greek word for torment has 'just one meaning' appears to be completely false, being contradicted by Thayer's; it lists several definitions, with the second involving torture and the third being torture, supported by 2Macc 7:-13+, reportedly written well before 288AD (the date mentioned by the LoL article when I looked), and before Jesus time as well.

It's good that you saw that Thayer at least gives the definition I mentioned.
You mentioned several books that are written before 288AD. (I think they were all written before that time).
But you must also keep in mind that the lexicons were written long after that time. The main question, for me is, if we had a lexicon written in 100AD, what would be in it?
We both have our views on what would be in that lexicon. If it only contains testing gold then the discussion is over. If it also contains torture then context should determine which meaning is being used. I gave you mine. You gave yours. And now we are stuck I think :-)

Quote(I realize the site desires accepted biblical canon for doctrinal use, but assume/hope the use for language consideration is acceptable.)

I'm not the site owner, but what I know about Gary is that he frequently uses "language consideration".

QuoteYes, brimstone and fire were used on Sodom and Gomorrah.  But the cleansing/purification there seems to have been of (benefit to) the earth.

Point taken. So again we can pick two meanings. (but I think it's not that hard for the lake
But there is hope.
Ezekiel 16:53 "'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

QuoteWhere is anything written that anyone sent to the 'lake of fire'/punishment comes out and/or join those in the kingdom (rest)?  Is this not going beyond what is written, warned against elsewhere,

It was a way of explaining how I understand Scripture.
Anyway, neither does it state they stay in it permanently.

Quoteyour observation of 'age' is not correct - it is actually a plural form, i.e. ageS.  So, there is no difference between the reign/kingdom.  The reign of ageS, is also the kingdom without end.  One is the act he performs, the other is that which he performs it over, they are for any practical purpose the same entity.

Hence, he reigns for ageS, and those ageS of the kingdom which he reigns over, is without end, unending.
   

If you are correct about that, and that's a big if, multiple ages cannot be unending. That's like saying forever AND ever. You only need one ever. I if one age never ends, there cannot be another age after that. It would therefore make more sense to say that the kingdom continues for an unending succession of ageS, not one unending one.

I don't have a problem with the fact that the reign in the first part of the sentence is the verb form of the noun meaning they are speaking of the same kingdom.

It is a kingdom through the ages, a kingdom that will not end.

Quote from: darryl on May 10, 2016, 12:37:30 PM


we could argue the semantics and etymology all the day and night long...what it boils down to is this...would a God of love torment His creatures in hellfire forever, with no end, no cessation, without pity or any mercy at all ?...hmmm, do you believe in such a god ?...could you worship such a god?...a God who, knowing He is ultimately going to torment and torture many of His creatures, continues to create them ?..I mean seriously, do you honestly, in your heart of hearts, believe in, love, and worship such a god ?...well, regardless of your answer I KNOW God is not like that..God is not a monster..He is a good God. a loving God...at least that is how I experience Him. The God I love and worship is not capable of tormenting precious human beings forever without end.

:iagree:
Are we supposed to ignore all the scripture that clearly tell of God saving the world, of being reconciled to all things in heaven and earth, because of not being able to understand for sure the meaning of a greek word?

Quote from: Seth on May 10, 2016, 04:27:50 PM

It is a kingdom through the ages, a kingdom that will not end.

And how happy we are to know that.. :thumbsup: :dsunny:

Quote from: bushy on May 10, 2016, 05:58:11 PM

Quote from: darryl on May 10, 2016, 12:37:30 PM

we could argue the semantics and etymology all the day and night long...what it boils down to is this...would a God of love torment His creatures in hellfire forever, with no end, no cessation, without pity or any mercy at all ?...hmmm, do you believe in such a god ?...could you worship such a god?...a God who, knowing He is ultimately going to torment and torture many of His creatures, continues to create them ?..I mean seriously, do you honestly, in your heart of hearts, believe in, love, and worship such a god ?...well, regardless of your answer I KNOW God is not like that..God is not a monster..He is a good God. a loving God...at least that is how I experience Him. The God I love and worship is not capable of tormenting precious human beings forever without end.

:iagree:
Are we supposed to ignore all the scripture that clearly tell of God saving the world, of being reconciled to all things in heaven and earth, because of not being able to understand for sure the meaning of a greek word?

Some of my favorite people are atheist.. My brother, one of my veRy favorite people is atheist. I was thinking just today, could I ever conceive of happiness, if I were to know he is somewhere writhing in torment for ever? or if he was simply 'lost' and no longer existed?

Of course the first scenario is the worse.. And, if it were to occur, could I really love a 'god' who carried out such a thing? A 'god' such as that, would sure sap a lot of joy and peace out of the "kingdom"... :faint:

:cloud9: :gsmile:

Quote from: bushy on May 10, 2016, 05:58:11 PM

Quote from: darryl on May 10, 2016, 12:37:30 PM


we could argue the semantics and etymology all the day and night long...what it boils down to is this...would a God of love torment His creatures in hellfire forever, with no end, no cessation, without pity or any mercy at all ?...hmmm, do you believe in such a god ?...could you worship such a god?...a God who, knowing He is ultimately going to torment and torture many of His creatures, continues to create them ?..I mean seriously, do you honestly, in your heart of hearts, believe in, love, and worship such a god ?...well, regardless of your answer I KNOW God is not like that..God is not a monster..He is a good God. a loving God...at least that is how I experience Him. The God I love and worship is not capable of tormenting precious human beings forever without end.

:iagree:
Are we supposed to ignore all the scripture that clearly tell of God saving the world, of being reconciled to all things in heaven and earth, because of not being able to understand for sure the meaning of a greek word?

Well, from what I have seen in this conversation, we are supposed to believe that eternal torment is LIKELY. The words "likely" and "seems" have been used often here, and I can appreciate the intellectual honesty in that. But, as for a punishment that never ends, from a God who is supposedly love, that makes for a pretty weak case for me. I would think that unending torment would deserve more of a definite warning than one based on a series of inferences.

So, to answer your question, no we should not ignore the other scriptures, but also, the argument for eternal torment based on this analysis of one greek word is fuzzy in itself. If men are to be eternally tormented, I would think God would be more clear about that in his usage of words without leaving it so open for interpretation, where we have to put puzzle pieces together an reach an opinion from it.

Quote from: bushy on May 10, 2016, 05:58:11 PM

Quote from: darryl on May 10, 2016, 12:37:30 PM


we could argue the semantics and etymology all the day and night long...what it boils down to is this...would a God of love torment His creatures in hellfire forever, with no end, no cessation, without pity or any mercy at all ?...hmmm, do you believe in such a god ?...could you worship such a god?...a God who, knowing He is ultimately going to torment and torture many of His creatures, continues to create them ?..I mean seriously, do you honestly, in your heart of hearts, believe in, love, and worship such a god ?...well, regardless of your answer I KNOW God is not like that..God is not a monster..He is a good God. a loving God...at least that is how I experience Him. The God I love and worship is not capable of tormenting precious human beings forever without end.

:iagree:
Are we supposed to ignore all the scripture that clearly tell of God saving the world, of being reconciled to all things in heaven and earth, because of not being able to understand for sure the meaning of a greek word?

:iagree: :dsunny:

Quote from: Seth on May 10, 2016, 07:00:31 PM

I would think that unending torment would deserve more of a definite warning than one based on a series of inferences.

:thumbsup: :banana:

Because you repeatingly made harsh claims I'll do so too.

Quote from: ps on May 10, 2016, 10:01:25 AM
As I indicate at the end, I will not carry on any likely unresolveable dispute, as that will likely not benefit anyone,

It would benefit you for sure because your understanding is shallow.

Quotethough if I see I will respond to false statements similar to the one concerning one greek word used for torment and the false indication that it would only imply testing in Jesus time and usage.

You have to try harder because the only thing you proved is that you have no clue about what the NT is about and especially Revelation.
I gave you several links and you glanced over them. Your choice but a very bad choice, because you chose to keep locked up in your pagan believes and reject growth.

You see, you keep trying to zoom in on a single word but all you can com up with is out of context 'proof'. You totally ignore proof from the other side. And yes, it is proof, the most solid proof you will ever read. Just try to understand what's written with an open mind. Many words in the NT point to purification. There are two keys to Revelation and the one relevant in this discussion is the fact that Revelation follows Temple rituals. Understand that and you will understand what LoF is. Not according to your lexicon but according to God.

That's an unnecessarily aggressive way to put things WW. Lets keep things civilized please.

Quote from: ps on May 09, 2016, 12:16:11 PM

And I believe the second article I referenced strongly indicates why where the word began, is not where it was at the time of Jesus and the apostles, even in external literature, and even earlier than that in the LXX/septuagint.  It also covers 'kolasi-' as a loss in some LXX/septuagint passages, not likely corrective in nature.

I have to disagree with any "likely" interpretation of kolassin as not being corrective. The word only occurs twice, and whether it means "cut off" or to "prune" is largely a matter of interpretation and context.

Also, one has to look into the Hebrew mindset to understand these thoughts as they proceed from YHWH through Messiah and the prophets and apostles.

Looking at John 15:1,2 Jesus is the Vine and we are the branches. If a branch bears no fruit, it withers, is cut-off(pruned or purged- kathairei), and gathered to be burned.

So what now? Are believers to be gathered for eternal burning too?

But in 1 Corinthians 3:15-17 we see another view of a believer and fire...

12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


So we see here that a believer can be saved, "yet so as through fire"and the "loss" is reward, and  not a sentence of eternal damnation.

Fire is something we go "through" in order to be purged.

Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. 2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.Mal 3

Those who believe are going through fire now... but Jesus said, "Every man will be salted with fire"(Mk 9 & Lk 12)

The key word in Mt 25:46 is "aionion" because no matter how we see kolassin, the key question is "how long". If torment/punishment lasts forever then the scriptures are broken because I can point to at least 8 verses that assert all will be saved.

Romans 11:32 and 36.

1 Corinthians 15:22 and 28

Ephesians 1:9-11

Colossians 1:15-21

1 John 2:1-3

Romans 5:18

Ephesians 4:7

Rev 5:13

Rev 21:5

And all those verses and more lead to Phillipians 2:9-11

Do anyone really think God is forcing all those people to bow their knee and confess His Lordship just before He throws them into eternal torment? And why?

I thought the reason they are "going to hell" in the first place is because God so respects free will that He has let them choose their horrible fate?

So why the big "force your knee down, I told you so" thing at the end?

My answer to that question is that every knee shall bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER ...

and if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart He was raised from the dead you will be saved (Romans 10)

So in Phil 2:9-11 we see all being saved through the subjection, not destroyed because of it, same as in 1 Cor 15:28

28And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

And as we see in 1 Cor 15:25,26 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

If death has been abolished, and God has become all in all, how can there be an everlasting second death?

I Cor 15 22-28 clearly shows the idea "Jesus being exalted in order to seal the damned" to be a false interpretation, as does Eph 4:7 and our Lord's own words in John 12:32

'If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me".

The reason for Jesus being exalted over all things and receiving "all authority on heaven and earth" is so that He can draw all things into His reign of life- "death is swallowed up by immortality"

He says, "Behold I am making all things new! Write down these words, they are faithful and true!"(Rev 21)

mostly ignoring the insult, tho' breaking my resolve, while trying to remain civil...

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 13, 2016, 01:41:09 PM
Because you repeatingly made harsh claims I'll do so too.

Quote from: ps on May 10, 2016, 10:01:25 AM
As I indicate at the end, I will not carry on any likely unresolveable dispute, as that will likely not benefit anyone,

It would benefit you for sure because your understanding is shallow.

Quotethough if I see I will respond to false statements similar to the one concerning one greek word used for torment and the false indication that it would only imply testing in Jesus time and usage.

Do you realize that the information you presented from the LoL article (regarding meaning of 'torment' word) is false?

Do you realize that the greek word (G928 presumed to be) considered there and by you, translated torment, did mean torment by Jesus and NT time-frame-of-reference?

Do you realize that you posted only *one* link (not several) prior to my previous post?

Do you understand that it can be difficult to give serious consideration to much of what an article presents if the specific material originally leading into that article is found to be false/incorrect/wrong/misleading?

Do you realize that it can be difficult to give serious consideration to what you have to say when realization occurs that you have presented false information to support your position, and more so that you don't seem to realize it is false?

Do you realize that I addressed, in my various posts, more than one word, and did not zoom in on only a single word?

Can you provide specific information about any of my presented evidence that is truly out-of-context relative to what the presentation claims?

If your answer to any of the above is "no", then we likely have little basis for further related discussion.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 13, 2016, 01:41:09 PM
You have to try harder because the only thing you proved is that you have no clue about what the NT is about and especially Revelation.
I gave you several links and you glanced over them. Your choice but a very bad choice, because you chose to keep locked up in your pagan believes and reject growth.

You see, you keep trying to zoom in on a single word but all you can com up with is out of context 'proof'. You totally ignore proof from the other side. And yes, it is proof, the most solid proof you will ever read. Just try to understand what's written with an open mind. Many words in the NT point to purification. There are two keys to Revelation and the one relevant in this discussion is the fact that Revelation follows Temple rituals. Understand that and you will understand what LoF is. Not according to your lexicon but according to God.

Did purification in Temple rituals occur 
*before* priests entered into (a period of) temple service/worship
-or-
*after* priests entered into (a period of) temple service/worship
-or-
*both*
? 
(I guess a fourth possibility would be 'neither', but I'm pretty sure purification was a requirement.)

Quote from: darryl on May 10, 2016, 12:37:30 PM
we could argue the semantics and etymology all the day and night long...

Nope, not us.

Quote from: darryl on May 10, 2016, 12:37:30 PM
what it boils down to is this...

what the originator of the words really meant. 
etymology and context are merely tools we use to try to understand that.
It has a specific meaning/intent, which is not determined by what we think.

Quote from: Seth on May 10, 2016, 04:27:50 PM

Quoteyour observation of 'age' is not correct - it is actually a plural form, i.e. ageS.  So, there is no difference between the reign/kingdom.  The reign of ageS, is also the kingdom without end.  One is the act he performs, the other is that which he performs it over, they are for any practical purpose the same entity.

Hence, he reigns for ageS, and those ageS of the kingdom which he reigns over, is without end, unending.
   

If you are correct about that, and that's a big if, multiple ages cannot be unending. That's like saying forever AND ever. You only need one ever. I if one age never ends, there cannot be another age after that. It would therefore make more sense to say that the kingdom continues for an unending succession of ageS, not one unending one.

I don't have a problem with the fact that the reign in the first part of the sentence is the verb form of the noun meaning they are speaking of the same kingdom.

Quote from: Seth on May 10, 2016, 04:27:50 PM
It is a kingdom through the ages, a kingdom that will not end.

I agree.  That was what I attempted to express, within the context of Luke 1:33.

Perhaps "he reigns for (a continuous succession of) ageS, and that succession of ageS of the kingdom which he reigns over, is without end, unending." would have been better.

Quote from: ps on May 18, 2016, 05:13:05 AM
mostly ignoring the insult, tho' breaking my resolve, while trying to remain civil...

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 13, 2016, 01:41:09 PM
Because you repeatingly made harsh claims I'll do so too.

Quote from: ps on May 10, 2016, 10:01:25 AM
As I indicate at the end, I will not carry on any likely unresolveable dispute, as that will likely not benefit anyone,

It would benefit you for sure because your understanding is shallow.

Quotethough if I see I will respond to false statements similar to the one concerning one greek word used for torment and the false indication that it would only imply testing in Jesus time and usage.

Do you realize that the information you presented from the LoL article (regarding meaning of 'torment' word) is false?

Do you realize that the greek word (G928 presumed to be) considered there and by you, translated torment, did mean torment by Jesus and NT time-frame-of-reference?

Do you realize that you posted only *one* link (not several) prior to my previous post?

Do you understand that it can be difficult to give serious consideration to much of what an article presents if the specific material originally leading into that article is found to be false/incorrect/wrong/misleading?

Do you realize that it can be difficult to give serious consideration to what you have to say when realization occurs that you have presented false information to support your position, and more so that you don't seem to realize it is false?

Do you realize that I addressed, in my various posts, more than one word, and did not zoom in on only a single word?

Can you provide specific information about any of my presented evidence that is truly out-of-context relative to what the presentation claims?

If your answer to any of the above is "no", then we likely have little basis for further related discussion.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 13, 2016, 01:41:09 PM
You have to try harder because the only thing you proved is that you have no clue about what the NT is about and especially Revelation.
I gave you several links and you glanced over them. Your choice but a very bad choice, because you chose to keep locked up in your pagan believes and reject growth.

You see, you keep trying to zoom in on a single word but all you can com up with is out of context 'proof'. You totally ignore proof from the other side. And yes, it is proof, the most solid proof you will ever read. Just try to understand what's written with an open mind. Many words in the NT point to purification. There are two keys to Revelation and the one relevant in this discussion is the fact that Revelation follows Temple rituals. Understand that and you will understand what LoF is. Not according to your lexicon but according to God.

Did purification in Temple rituals occur 
*before* priests entered into (a period of) temple service/worship
-or-
*after* priests entered into (a period of) temple service/worship
-or-
*both*
? 
(I guess a fourth possibility would be 'neither', but I'm pretty sure purification was a requirement.)

ps

you are making a lot of "do you realize" emphatic statements, as if you were there, or what, "because you say so?".

But the issue you are making is a "straw man".

The only issue to this disagreement is...

Whether you see it as "torment" or "punishment" or "correction" -was it pointless eternal vengance? Was it eternal annihilation? Or was it for a time and a purpose. You easily ignore a ton of scripture, and as usual, you parrot the themes that support your  own view and refuse to respond at all to many scripture verses that refute it.

For instance.... 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 teaches that God will be "all in all" and death will be done away with.

If death will be destroyed, How can the second death last "forever".

Colossians 1 15-21 says "For so it pleased the Father to make al the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross, whether things in heaven or things on earth."

If "hell" or "the lake of fire" lasts forever, How will all things in heaven and earth be reconciled?

Ephesians 1:9 says "In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth."

You have no problem ignoring the testimony of these verses and repeating what you have heard and what you were taught and what you surmise from your own disposition without any objective scholarship or consideration of the points made by others, so let me ask you this...

Why are you here? This is not a debate site. It is a discussion site based in the scriptures of the prophets and apostles. This is not a place for folks to make assertions with no scriptural context or scholarly effort behind them. If you re[ly to scriptures with "Do you realize" followed by some emphatic assertion don't you think you ought to follow it with some evidence?

Unless you can address the verses I posted above and explain how they can be true in an annihilation or eternal torment perspective, you are just basicly trolling as far as I can see.

The only way to resolve a dispute between spiritual people is the scriptures. Religious ideology and philosophy, unsupported statements etc. now that's easy.  Too easy.

ps, this is a good article on what Jesus meant, and what people heard in His day and time, if you are interested.  :declare:

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 07:38:31 AM
good article

Where? reference missing?  Or am I overlooking some feature of the board that holds it?

oops sorry

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html  (http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html)

This was originally part of a larger post.  It has been split, when I am tired, to separate out biblical content from administrative criticisms and responses to those.

This part contains the administrative.

The next part will address the bible content presented by EW.
**************************************************

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM

ps

you are making a lot of "do you realize" emphatic statements, as if you were there, or what, "because you say so?".

Made a lot, only in one post. 
Have you looked at my others, or were you meaning to specifically call out that one post?

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM

But the issue you are making is a "straw man".

I think not.  Did you read the article I referenced, or the other posts I have made?

Some of what you have posted, suggests to me that you have not reviewed my other posts, or do not recall them.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM
The only issue to this disagreement is...

Whether you see it as "torment" or "punishment" or "correction" -was it pointless eternal vengance? Was it eternal annihilation? Or was it for a time and a purpose. You easily ignore a ton of scripture, and as usual, you parrot the themes that support your  own view and refuse to respond at all to many scripture verses that refute it.

The post to which I was responding contained no bible verses. 
You criticized WW for his aggressiveness in that post, but not for his lack of bible verses. 
Nor did his original post where he made the claim regarding 'torment'.
But I suppose the new kid on the block warrants more careful watching - especially with an introduction like mine.
Just observing...

I am in the middle of responding to your other post mentioning '8 verses' with observations about the context of many of the passages you presented, and some other verses regarding what you have presented.  (I am probably not going to have time to finish that on this day.)

<snip - moved to other post>

I am addressing what I can as I have time.

I suppose I was trolled, as it were, by WW.

Not wishing to be disrespectful, but please consider...

Is my scholarship not objective, or have you merely overlooked it?

In your other post to which I'm responding, you claim only two instances regarding Kolasi- usage, and reject the possibility of it not being corrective. 

There are other instances in OT septuagint canon, and they are presented both in the article I referenced in my first post in this thread, and subsequently mentioned in later posts by me in this thread.

But, you did not address them? 
Overlooked, short of time, ignored as you accuse me of, or ...?

WW presented a claim regarding a greek word being incorrectly translated as torment, and a claim that it could not have meant that in NT context.  (And in the post where he made the claim, not one bible verse, nor any other generally accepted reference material.)

I responded with evidence to the contrary. 
Yet WW does not seem to have acknowledged that material. 
And you claim I have not supported my assertions, with reference to only one post. 
But have overlooked that his claim (perhaps you believe it?), (and that of the author he was referencing) is not substantiated by the biblical and reference resources generally available, and is actually pretty clearly contradicted by the resources available (and earlier presented.)

Regarding each of the greek words I addressed, I have provided related bible reference material that supports what I have presented.  (Bible reference in the case of torment being apochryphal - but that too was part of KJV bible until sometime in 1800s.  The apochrypha also being important enough to be part of the septuagint.)

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM
Why are you here?

To point out some observations, as I have done, regarding some bible verses and words, and how their meaning may be other than what many here seem to think.

Fear not, I do not expect to be here much longer. :)

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM
This is not a debate site.
It is a discussion site based in the scriptures of the prophets and apostles. This is not a place for folks to make assertions with no scriptural context or scholarly effort behind them. If you re[ly to scriptures with "Do you realize" followed by some emphatic assertion don't you think you ought to follow it with some evidence?

The evidence regarding the biblical issue of torment in that post you quoted had previously been presented.

Pretty much everything else in the post relates to the falseness of the claim made by WW regarding that meaning, which I had previously refuted with objective, scholarly evidence.  (Admittedly not all of my own original research, but all verified before I repeated it.)

Did you overlook the earlier posts?

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM
Unless you can address the verses I posted above and explain how they can be true in an annihilation or eternal torment perspective, you are just basicly trolling as far as I can see.

Perhaps you will find my effort here (after split "there") more acceptable, as I have done that.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM

The only way to resolve a dispute between spiritual people is the scriptures.

Sadly, I'm doubtful that all disputes can be resolved in this lifetime, particularly given one who seeks to kill, steal, destroy, and blind.

Even sadder, the resolution for some may not be what most here seem to hope for.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM
Religious ideology and philosophy, unsupported statements etc. now that's easy.  Too easy.

ps

This was originally part of a larger post.  It has been split, when I am tired, to separate out biblical content from administrative criticisms and responses to those.

The other part contains the administrative responses.

This part addresses the bible content presented by EW.
**************************************************
I will also address here the verses you have presented, with other verses.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM

For instance.... 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 teaches that God will be "all in all" and death will be done away with.

If death will be destroyed, How can the second death last "forever".

1 Cor 15:22-26,  Rev 20:5
Because it is the first death, the death initiated by Adam's sin 1 Cor 15:22, that is Christ's enemy and is to be destroyed, the last enemy of Christ to be fully defeated 1 Cor 15:26, in Rev 20:5 "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed."
The second death (Rev 20:14b "This is the second death, the lake of fire.") does not come until after Christ is spoken of as having defeated death and 'all', literally by now all mankind, have either avoided (1 Cor 15:51, 1 Th 4:15) or been resurrected from the first death. 

There is no mention of the second death being an enemy of Christ, nor of it being defeated by Him.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM
Colossians 1 15-21 says "For so it pleased the Father to make al the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross, whether things in heaven or things on earth."

If "hell" or "the lake of fire" lasts forever, How will all things in heaven and earth be reconciled?

Rom 5:10 indicates being reconciled does not equate to salvation.  We have been reconciled (an even exchange, his earthly [first] death for ours) by his death, but we (separately) shall be saved by his life. "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

Reconciliation already accomplished by his death, salvation yet to be ('shall be') accomplished by his life.

Heb 9:15 also makes mention, "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." realizing Hebrews is being written to believers, and noting those who are called cannot be other than those whom the Father has given Him, Jn 6:37-39.  And regarding those who 'have been called, 2 Pet 1:10 being addressed to believers, encourages them to "be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;", apparently indicating it is possible to fall short of the goal, followed by v11, "for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."  Heb 4:1 also indicating the possibility of coming short of the goal, "Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it."

Reconciliation/redemption was a necessary prerequisite to/for salvation, but is not of itself actual salvation.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM

Ephesians 1:9 says "In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth."

You stopped a bit short in v10.  In NASB, it continues "In Him, " v11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined to His purpose, who works all things after the counsel of His will."

Is this passage addressed to 'all', or is it addressed to the Ephesians, and other believers, those who are to obtain the inheritance?  Presumably the same inheritance spoken of in Eph 5:5, where it states that none who are immoral, impure, or covetous have any part in that inheritance.  and Heb 4:1, where believers are warned "Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.", indicating that the promise does not remain forever, that one must take advantage of the opportunity while the "promise remains". 

Additionally, Heb 12:14 encourages the readers to "Pursue ... the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.", a 'see'ing likely to occur at the 'revelation' of Jesus Christ spoke of in 1 Pet 1:7, 1:13, 4:13, and at His 'appearing', 2 Tim 6:14, and in 1 Jn 3:2 "We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.", but unlikely to be the time when "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him" of Rev 1:7, since we know from Rev 20:5 not everyone is resurrected until after the thousand year reign.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 05:56:20 AM
You have no problem ignoring the testimony of these verses and repeating what you have heard and what you were taught and what you surmise from your own disposition without any objective scholarship or consideration of the points made by others, so let me ask you this...

Perhaps I have done better here.

I note, that here, you too accuse me of lack of scholarship ('shallow'ness?), but perhaps you will see in some of the above, hints that I may not be well aligned with the 'traditional' folks, in addition to not being aligned with URers - and maybe, just maybe, I actually have read the bible, and paid attention to what it has to say.  While it appears that you have many here, who do precisely what you accuse me of 'ignoring the testimony of these verses' that I have presented, 'and repeating what' they 'have heard and ... were taught' or 'surmise from ' their 'own disposition', without objectively considering all that the NT records. 

Additionally EW, even you seem guilty of that which you presume to judge me of, with your scholarship apparently having not even found that there are more than two biblical usages of kolasi-, and the weight those verses give regarding use of kolasi- as a non-corrective instrument, and more recently, ignored/overlooked posts in this thread which have pointed out their existence.

I look forward to seeing what sort of consideration you give to these points I have provided, as well as to the other verses using kolasi-, now that I have again pointed out their existence.

Take note that I neither dug the pit, nor started the stone rolling (Pr 26:27).  You can give credit for that to WW.

But I guess my answer was not soft enough to turn away your criticism.  Nor my restraint sufficient to ignore his, nor your, digs, completely.

If opportunity remains, I will yet attempt to finish my response to your '8 verses' post.

ps

To me the separation of the goats and sheep, and the wheat and tares (to be burned) is at His return.. not a die and go immediately to heaven or hell.. the goats are gathered to Armageddon, and the sheep gathered to Him (at His return)...

I'm really not so sure any humans will go to the lake of fire.. and sometimes I believe it is death, as in non-life. But I also believe Judgment 'Day' will last roughly 500 years (because of the spacing of the ancient fall holy days, if His 1st advent fulfilled the spring ones, then surely, His long 2nd advent will fulfill the fall ones).

What does it require that one's name be written in the Book of Life? to believe.. and to truly believe and be convinced.. After one has experienced being resurrected from their grave (at the 2nd resurrection, even if they do rise "still in their sins" / imperfection, "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and outer darkness") and after also experiencing, living through and witnessing a long day of the review of all things (all human history in all its terribleness).. after all that, who's not going to "believe".. And it is the last verse of the chapter :smile:

Is Yahweh Almighty not perfect? How can perfection make any mistakes? How can Perfect lose anything? Let alone 3/4's of humanity. He can only be perfect.. or He too would fade.. surely?

And since He is perfect the 'end' result of all this (surely?) can only be the utterly best end result possible..
He is 100% perfect, and 100% Good.. any doctrine which contradicts this simply (imo:) cannot be true..

I'm sure it's been pointed out gehenna was the city dump where even criminal's bodies were burned.. hence "better to throw your hand there than to harm one of these little ones" (context). Hades, place of the dead.. imo, is still the grave, as is the dust of the grave the lower part of the earth.. And He went via the Spirit and preached to those who were perishing while the ark was being built, makes more sense than His doing it later.. Tartarus, metaphor for deep darkness and chains of, may imply, to some, underground chambers of levels of hell.. (Egypt, Plato,  views, and 'apocalypse of Peter', and Dante). But "In sheol there is neither thought nor doing" Eccles 9:10. "Oh that you would hide me in sheol" (vs?) "All meet in sheol" (vs?)

When Israel sacrificed live babes into fire, Yahweh said "such a thing never rose up or came from My heart!"
But, in summary, God's Word says He is All Mighty.. all powerful.. lose 3/4's of humanity to Satan? :laughing7: :girlheart:

'Hell' blasphemes His holy character every day.. and so does annihilation-ism, imo :gsmile:

..this is an excellent short article I think fits into this thread (?) - http://www.urqa.com/15_bombs.html

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 09:58:29 AM
oops sorry

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html  (http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html)

I have looked at your link (think I had read it before) and I believe he has made at least one specific error (regarding Mt. 23.36 referring to 'these same things' as Mt. 24.34.)

Perhaps of related interest to you (others?), some overlap, at least one disagreement I think (about garbage dump):
http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2011/04/myth-of-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna.html
and the previous also links to the following
http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2011/04/fires-of-gehenna-views-of-scholars.html

I have some additional observations as well related to content of your linked article, but it is likely to be some time before I can present them.

The article I presented was to open possibilities. I am familiar with the objections to it, but the lnks you provide are no more authoritative than the one I posted.

What you are missing here is that I am not interested in debating you.

You still have not responded to the verses I posted that clearly state that all will be gathered into one in Christ, that all will be reconciled, that all will be made alive, that God will be all in all.

This is why I said before that it appears to me that you are just trolling the ET view and not interested in substantive discssion of the scriptures.

If you are not here to learn and consider possibilities, than you are in the wrong place, because we are not here to have debates with folks whose minds are made up to the point they will not address the issue through the scriptures. Matthew 25:46 is not the only verse on the topic. Meanings and messages are determined, among spiritual persons, by topical context using examples from throughout the scriptures.

So I will ask you again, "Why are you here?" If you are here for pointless debate- which you said in the OP you were not, I dont get it :o)

Hi PS.

Aionios doesn't speak to an endpoint at all.  It simply refers to a continuing point.  It's an adjective as you probably are already aware.  It means something that CONTINUES beyond the age boundary without an reference to when it ends.   It doesn't address the end or length of the duration beyond the age boundary at all.

So aionios punishment would be punishment that exists in the age and will continue to exist beyond the age.  The same with aionios Life.  This means it would be Life that exist within the age and continues to exist beyond the age.  But it is interesting in that this is within the context of the experience of the age.

For example, if I one is said to have aionios life and they die it doesn't mean that the Life they have is continuing while that person is in fact dead but, to the life of that person - it continues beyond the age as they are re-acquainted with that life.

marie glen,

Quote from: marie glen on May 10, 2016, 06:52:11 PM

Some of my favorite people are atheist.. My brother, one of my veRy favorite people is atheist. I was thinking just today, could I ever conceive of happiness, if I were to know he is somewhere writhing in torment for ever? or if he was simply 'lost' and no longer existed?

Of course the first scenario is the worse.. And, if it were to occur, could I really love a 'god' who carried out such a thing? A 'god' such as that, would sure sap a lot of joy and peace out of the "kingdom"... :faint:

You may want to consider whether you have fully counted the (possible) cost of being Jesus disciple.

Luke 14:25..33
v25 "Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
v26 ""If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
v27 ""Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
...
v33 ""So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

and the results...

Matt 19
v27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"
v28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
v29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

Mark 10
v28 'Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."
v29 'Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake,
v30 "but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life."

Luke 18
v28 Peter said, "Behold, we have left [fn]our own homes and followed You."
v29 And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
v30 "who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Quote from: ps on May 20, 2016, 11:18:01 AM
marie glen,

Quote from: marie glen on May 10, 2016, 06:52:11 PM

Some of my favorite people are atheist.. My brother, one of my veRy favorite people is atheist. I was thinking just today, could I ever conceive of happiness, if I were to know he is somewhere writhing in torment for ever? or if he was simply 'lost' and no longer existed?

Of course the first scenario is the worse.. And, if it were to occur, could I really love a 'god' who carried out such a thing? A 'god' such as that, would sure sap a lot of joy and peace out of the "kingdom"... :faint:

You may want to consider whether you have fully counted the (possible) cost of being Jesus disciple.

Luke 14:25..33
v25 "Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
v26 ""If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
v27 ""Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
...
v33 ""So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

and the results...

Matt 19
v27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"
v28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
v29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

Mark 10
v28 'Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."
v29 'Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake,
v30 "but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life."

Luke 18
v28 Peter said, "Behold, we have left [fn]our own homes and followed You."
v29 And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
v30 "who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

yes, there's Bible passages which speak of  exclusivity ...some human beings are 'in'...most people are 'out'....at least on the surface it looks like that...dig a little deeper and you might just find another perspective on all this. :dsunny:

Quote from: ps on May 10, 2016, 10:01:25 AM

So for simplicity just assume the world ends January 1, 2022.
The holy people instantly start the eternal life and enter the kingdom.
The other people are sent to the lake. They stay there for a while and then join the holy people.

Where is anything written that anyone sent to the 'lake of fire'/punishment comes out and/or join those in the kingdom (rest)?  Is this not going beyond what is written, warned against elsewhere, though not specifically on this topic?  And the (absolute?) denial of entry into rest is mentioned in Ps 95:11, Act 7:42, 13:18, Heb 3:11,18,  Heb 4:3,5,11, and similar displeasure with unbelievers in 1Cor 10:1-12.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 09, 2016, 03:35:42 PM

well, what of the passages that say God desires ALL be saved ?...doesn't God get His desire ?...is the desire of a man to reject God stronger than Gods desire to save him ?..I think not.

Consider,
(apologize for going specifically off-topic to the main thread subject, but since WW and EW have done so, I hope it is acceptable, I've already done it elsewhere in responses to them as well.)

Quote from: Seth on May 10, 2016, 07:00:31 PM
If men are to be eternally tormented, I would think God would be more clear about that in his usage of words without leaving it so open for interpretation, where we have to put puzzle pieces together an reach an opinion from it.

that it may not be that fuzzy.

There are various passages I have not seen much mention of on this site (although I certainly have not read everything.)

Note that the definitions of the words wrath/perish/destroy/destruction don't seem to be subject to the same uncertainty/vagueness regarding corrective vs other, as some think that of punishment (kolasi-) is vague/mistranslated.

The time period may not be spelled out in many of these, but in various of the passages seems contrasted and coincident with those entering (and remaining-in) inheritance/life/rest/salvation.

wrath G3709
perish-, des-troy/-truction G684 and related
destruction G3639

Jn 3:36b YLT "...and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him."

Rom 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath G3709 and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,"
Rom 2:8 "but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation."
Rom 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"
Eph 5:6 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."
Col 3:6 "For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come [fn]upon the sons of disobedience,"
(next believers avoiddance of wrath)
1 Th 1:10 "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come."
1 Th 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
comparison to past, where much of Israel was eliminated
Heb 3:11 "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
Heb 4:3 "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world."
Rev 6:16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Rev 11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants ..., and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Mat 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Phl 1:28b "...which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God."
1Th 5:3 'While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape."
(Is that 'eternal' temporary, as some want, or unending, as in the kingdom of Luke 1:33 where the presence of the Lord will be?)
2Th 1:9 "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power"
Heb 10:39 "But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

and some others, but hopefully that is enough to support my assertion.

Quote from: darryl on May 20, 2016, 11:42:17 AM
well, what of the passages that say God desires ALL be saved ?...doesn't God get His desire ?

God desired to lead all Israel out of Egypt into the promised land, but not all made it.

This is referred to in NT as a warning to believers, one found in 1 Cor 10:1-6
"1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was [fn]Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved."

Quote from: darryl on May 20, 2016, 11:42:17 AM
...is the desire of a man to reject God stronger than Gods desire to save him ?

Perhaps. 

The Pharisees and lawyers rejected God's purpose/counsel/will.
Luke 7:30 NASB "But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John."

Quote from: darryl on May 20, 2016, 11:42:17 AM
..I think not.

in Luke 7:30, purpose G1012 boule

Thayer's includes
"esp. of the purpose of God respecting the salvation of men through Christ"
and
"all the contents of the divine plan"

Vines includes
"boule is the result of determination"

Did the Pharisees and lawyers successfully resist what God had determined should occur?

It doesn't sound like they were expected to, from Jesus's comments to the Pharisees and lawyers in
Luke 11:43-51, excerpts
v 50 "so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation,"
v 51 "from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation."

Perhaps Nicodemus and others that came by night, though of that generation, repented and submitted, avoiding those charges.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM

I have to disagree with any "likely" interpretation of kolassin as not being corrective. The word only occurs twice, and whether it means "cut off" or to "prune" is largely a matter of interpretation and context.

How only twice?  I pointed out several others in Septuagint canon.  There are many more in apochryphal septuagint books.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
Also, one has to look into the Hebrew mindset to understand these thoughts as they proceed from YHWH through Messiah and the prophets and apostles.

I looked at the link you presented in a later post, and assume you had that content in mind with the above statement.
Here I will briefly note, that Moses spoke of sending another servant (Deut 18:15), and they were to follow him.
Jesus is recorded as having indicated he was the one Moses spoke of (Jn 5:46).
Could it be that Jesus in speaking of the danger of Gehenna for individuals was clarifying the possibility, much as he did in clarifying what constituted murder or adultery (thoughts), relative to what the OT had to say on the topic.
Mt 5:21-22 apparently being his first mention, according to that article, and referring to an individual man being in 'danger', not a nation.
I think there is also the possibility that the general awareness of Gehenna was well known, from at least the book of Enoch, with which they were likely well acquainted.
This article covers that likelihood, and may be in line with your views as well:
https://jesuswithoutbaggage.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/hell-and-enoch-in-the-new-testament-writers/

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
Looking at John 15:1,2 Jesus is the Vine and we are the branches. If a branch bears no fruit, it withers, is cut-off(pruned or purged- kathairei), and gathered to be burned.

In John 15:1-2 Jesus was speaking to, and of, those who were already following him.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
So what now? Are believers to be gathered for eternal burning too?

Perhaps, depending on their level of obedience.

What do you think of
Matt 13:30 - Was it possible for the tares to become wheat?  Why would the landowner be concerned about rooting up the wheat, if it could be reclaimed later?  Could it be reclaimed later, if it was uprooted?
Luke 12:46 - the servant (of the master) was to be 'cut in pieces' and assigned a place with the unbelievers and similarly Matt 24:51
John 3:36b - those who don't obey abide in the wrath of God, YLT "and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him."

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM


But in 1 Corinthians 3:15-17 we see another view of a believer and fire...

12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


So we see here that a believer can be saved, "yet so as through fire"and the "loss" is reward, and  not a sentence of eternal damnation.

Fire is something we go "through" in order to be purged.

Yes, the 'believer' can be saved.  Those who wanted to follow, or were following, Jesus... those who actually have the 'foundation' of believing in Jesus death and resurrection and following him, the foundation which Paul intended to be established with the corinthians.

Unbelievers do not have that foundation.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. 2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.Mal 3

Those who believe are going through fire now... but Jesus said, "Every man will be salted with fire"(Mk 9 & Lk 12)

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
(I assume you mean Lk 14:34, and there's also Matt 5:13.)
In all three larger passages, it appears Jesus is speaking to those were following/pursuing him - not to those who wanted nothing to do with him.

The key word in Mt 25:46 is "aionion" because no matter how we see kolassin, the key question is "how long". If torment/punishment lasts forever then the scriptures are broken because I can point to at least 8 verses that assert all will be saved.

Romans 11:32 and 36.

Yes, he also led all of Israel out of Egypt, but they did not all enter the promised land. 1 Cor 10:1-6

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM

1 Corinthians 15:22 and 28

Rev 20:5 "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed."
But then what eventually happens?
Rev 20:15 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.", the second death.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
Ephesians 1:9-11

I see this as speaking of 'all' those whom the Father has given to Jesus (John 6:44), the ones who will be drawn (John 12:32)?
The 'all' that Jesus will draw to himself, is necessarily limited by those the Father has given to him.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
Colossians 1:15-21

Again, expressing the Father's desire, as with Israel in Egypt - He does want all, and He initiates, but those He is leading must follow - or, again, as with the 'all' He led out of Egypt, there will be those whose names are not found worthy, are not found written in the Lamb's book of life.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
1 John 2:1-3

Who was John addressing?  Believers, or unbelievers?  Believers, isn't it?

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
Romans 5:18

Look at the larger surrounding passage.

Rom 5:6b, 'Christ died for the ungodly', yes allows for all of them, providing reconciliation.

Justification/reconciliation/redemption is apparently accomplished for all mankind past/present/future, and is a prerequisite to/for salvation...

But is not itself salvation...

Rom 5:10 'For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.',

the reconciliation is by his death, and that apparently provided to all, but the salvation is by his life (after his resurrection), something separate.

But that salvation would seem per Jn 6:44,65 to be to those whom the Father draws, grants - not necessarily everyone.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
Ephesians 4:7

Who was Paul addressing? Believers, or unbelievers?  Believers, isn't it?

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
Rev 5:13

That does sound like every'thing' will worship - as in the 'stones will cry out' and 'the creation groans' - but does that include people?

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
Rev 21:5

But what of Rev 21:7, "He who overcomes" "will inherit these things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son."
While v5 speaks of 'all things new', the new things appear to only be inherited, v7, by those who (have) overcome, or as
spoken of elsewhere, those who endure to the 'end' are those to be saved, Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:19

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
And all those verses and more lead to Phillipians 2:9-11

And Isaiah 45:23, and Rom 14:11.
But what precedes Isaiah 45:23, v22 'Turn to me and be saved', is it not those who will turn, that will bow, and Rom 14:11, followed by v12 'So then each of US' - Paul was addressing supposed believers in Rome.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM

Do anyone really think God is forcing all those people to bow their knee and confess His Lordship just before He throws them into eternal torment? And why?

No, it appears from Isaiah, where the passage apparently originates, and Romans, that it is speaking of those who choose to 'turn...and be saved'.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
I thought the reason they are "going to hell" in the first place is because God so respects free will that He has let them choose their horrible fate?

So why the big "force your knee down, I told you so" thing at the end?

I suspect this is referring to those who have chosen to follow/serve, but even
Should it be as you perceive, if that is what God wants, are you in a position to question God concerning it? 
Are you the potter, or the clay?
Are you superior to Job?

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM


My answer to that question is that every knee shall bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER ...

and if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart He was raised from the dead you will be saved (Romans 10)

But, 'if you confess', 'and believe in your heart', being addressed to those who presumably believe, those who receive this message, before Jesus returns.
After Jesus return and by the judgement, there is unlikely to be any question remaining about him requiring faith.  Everyone will see and know, having been resurrected from the dead.  The opportunity to 'confess' and 'believe' by faith (of things 'not seen', Heb 11:1) no longer remains, the 'things' will be seen - they will have been resurrected.
Also John 20:29b YLT "happy those not having seen, and having believed."

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
So in Phil 2:9-11 we see all being saved through the subjection, not destroyed because of it, same as in 1 Cor 15:28

28And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

And as we see in 1 Cor 15:25,26 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

If death has been abolished, and God has become all in all, how can there be an everlasting second death?

It is the first death, the one initiated by Adam's sin, that is the enemy of Christ, and that he is overcoming.
Rev 20:5a records this is to occur "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed." with the completion of that being further recorded in Rev 20:13.

The second death appears to not take place until after the first death has been defeated, and it is only those who are
part of the first resurrection, who are known to not be subject to the power of the second death, Rev 20:6a "Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power".
There seems to be no further guarantee to anyone that the power of the second death can be overcome - it will apparently be subject to what is determined in the judgement, Rev 20:11-15 v12 'books were opened; and another book was opened, which is of life and the [formerly] dead were judged ... according to their deeds [in the bookS]', but then v15 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."  the lake of fire being the second death.

The salvation Jesus provides is from the first death, not the second death.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM


I Cor 15 22-28 clearly shows the idea "Jesus being exalted in order to seal the damned" to be a false interpretation, as does Eph 4:7 and our Lord's own words in John 12:32

'If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me".

The reason for Jesus being exalted over all things and receiving "all authority on heaven and earth" is so that He can draw all things into His reign of life- "death is swallowed up by immortality"

He says, "Behold I am making all things new! Write down these words, they are faithful and true!"(Rev 21)

I think you misunderstand to what the 'all' in many cases is referring.

Consider
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
and
John 6:65 "And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

The 'all' that Jesus will draw in John 12:32, is apparently limited to those the Father draws, and those the Father grants, to be drawn, John 6:44 'No one can come... unless the Father...draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 10:47:41 PM
You still have not responded to the verses I posted that clearly state that all will be gathered into one in Christ, that all will be reconciled, that all will be made alive, that God will be all in all.

But, I did respond, before the comments of your post this post is quoting.

See the last entry (at least for me) on page two of this thread.  (I don't currently see how to obtain a direct link, but it appears likely to be message # 198788, if you know how to make use of that. [edit: found it: http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198788/#msg198788])

(Unless you are referring to the '8 verses' post, which I have also since responded to, also before this post - since you mention the question 'why are you here' next, I assume not that '8 verses' post.)

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 10:47:41 PM
So I will ask you again, "Why are you here?" If you are here for pointless debate- which you said in the OP you were not, I dont get it :o)

That same post of mine also answered that question.

Quote from: ps on May 20, 2016, 01:09:12 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM

.

The salvation Jesus provides is from the first death, not the second death.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2016, 03:30:13 PM

nice try..but you are adding to the word of God..the Bible makes no such distinction..it plainly states 'Death will be abolished'..it does not say 'the first death will be abolished'...therefore 'Death' in all it's totality, whether first or second or whatever...will be abolished..there is simply no way around it.Death, in all it's forms,whether first or second,  will be abolished.

Quote from: ps on May 20, 2016, 01:45:47 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 10:47:41 PM
You still have not responded to the verses I posted that clearly state that all will be gathered into one in Christ, that all will be reconciled, that all will be made alive, that God will be all in all.

But, I did respond, before the comments of your post this post is quoting.

See the last entry (at least for me) on page two of this thread.  (I don't currently see how to obtain a direct link, but it appears likely to be message # 198788, if you know how to make use of that.)

(Unless you are referring to the '8 verses' post, which I have also since responded to, also before this post - since you mention the question 'why are you here' next, I assume not that '8 verses' post.)

Quote from: eaglesway on May 18, 2016, 10:47:41 PM
So I will ask you again, "Why are you here?" If you are here for pointless debate- which you said in the OP you were not, I dont get it :o)

That same post of mine also answered that question.

Hi, ps...re- you saying the 2nd death wont be abolished...nice try..but you are adding to the word of God..the Bible makes no such distinction..

the Bible  plainly states 'Death will be abolished'..it does not say 'the first death will be abolished'...therefore 'Death' in all it's totality, whether first or second or whatever...will be abolished..

there is simply no way around it.Death, in all it's forms,whether first or second,  will be abolished.

Hello, ps. Regarding 'kolasis' I have found a passage in the Septuagint where 'kolasis' is used and it definitely means 'correction' not retributive vindictive punishment.

Ezekial 44 9-14
9 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary. 10"But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity. 11"Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister to them'.

12"Because they ministered to them before their idols and became a stumbling block of iniquity to the house of Israel, therefore I have sworn against them," declares the Lord GOD, "that they shall bear the punishment ( kolasis ) for their iniquity.

13 'And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a priest to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to the things that are most holy; but they will bear their shame and their abominations which they have committed.14"Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the house, of all its service and of all that shall be done in it'.

So, what is this 'punishment' for these backslidden priests ?. Not death, not torment or torture. No, Yahweh punishes the Levites for their participation in idolatry by not allowing them to act as priests in the new temple.

  Ezekiel 44:13 ►
13 'And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a priest to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to the things that are most holy; but they will bear their shame and their abominations which they have committed.

'Kolasis' definitely means 'correction' here (to teach these priests the error of their ways)  , not retributive vindictive punishment.

Please note these sinful priests were still allowed to keep 'charge of the house'.Verse 14"Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the house, of all its service and of all that shall be done in it'.

Yahweh is merciful and there is purpose to His corrective chastisement.  :dsunny:

the following passage answers the objections of  'ps' decisively...2 Peter 3:9  says  ( Strong's definitions included) , ' The Lord is not (Gk= 'ou'= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Gk= 'me'= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( the Greek word for 'willing' is = 'boúlomai' ="resolutely plan",planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Gk= 'tis'= anyone at all )  to perish, but everyone (Gk ='pantas' = all, everyone)  to come to repentance'.

The Greek word 'boulomai' is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is 'resolutely planning' for all to come to repentance.

So, God does not 'merely desire' all to be saved, He is resolutely planning toward all being saved. ( What does repentance lead to ?..it leads to salvation) .

Therefore, what Almighty God 'resolutely plans', MUST happen.It's actually almost blasphemy to say God will fail to achieve that which He is resolutely planning.

Therefore ALL will ultimately be redeemed.If they are not all redeemed, God is not capable of getting what He wants to get. Honestly, people like our friend 'ps' who believe millions will be eternally lost,who believe not all will ultimately be saved, are simply not believing what God plainly says  in His word.

The actual mechanics of it, how it will exactly come about..I do not really know, although there are 'hints' in the Bible about how this Universal Reconciliation will take place...but how can we know exactly how God will redeem all ?..I / we  are not almighty God...but HE knows how He will ultimately redeem the entire human race..I, we, just need to trust His word and the fact that He WILL do it...we need to truly believe that 'all things are possible with God'.

By the way, if we are going to talk about so called 'free will' I must say that the Lord's will and determination to save somebody is infinitely greater than that persons will to reject Him.

hello again, ps....please do not forget the importance of the Septuagint in these discussions.

The Septuagint is critically important in understanding how the people to whom the New Testament was written understood its teachings.  For it was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament (Greek being the universal language at that time), in use by the Jews of Jesus time.

  Of the 459 times that the Septuagint uses aionios and aion to translate a Hebrew word – 455 times that word is olam.  So its safe to say that the definition of aionios will be similar to the definition of olam.  And we have seen that as nouns both aion and olam generally refer to an age, or as adjectives – age long.

We will now look at some instances of how the Septuagint uses aion and aionios to translate olam.  Note: There are literally hundreds of verses that I could use here, the following, is but a tiny sampling.  If anyone has a Bible Study program with The Hebrew Old Testament and the Septuagint, you could easily look up every reference for yourself.  In some instances, after I quote the verse, I will add a comment below it to point out that the idea of it meaning forever simply doesn't work.

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old (aionios), men of renown."  (Genesis 6:4)

Mighty men of eternity?

"Those from among you will rebuild the ancient (aionios) ruins; you will raise up the age-old (aionios) foundations; and you will be called the repairer of the breach, the restorer of the streets in which to dwell."  (Isaiah 58:12)

How do you rebuild an eternal ruin?

"For My people have forgotten Me, They burn incense to worthless gods and they have stumbled from their ways, from the ancient (aionios) paths, to walk in bypaths, not on a highway, to make their land a desolation, an object of perpetual (aionios) hissing; everyone who passes by it will be astonished And shake his head." (Jeremiah 18:15,16)

"You shall also observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt; therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as a permanent (aionios) ordinance." (Exodus 12:17)

"The priestly sons of Aaron, moreover, shall blow the trumpets; and this shall be for you a perpetual (aionios) statute throughout your generations." (Numbers 10:8)

These all obviously are not still happening.

"The prophets who were before me and before you from ancient (aion) times prophesied against many lands and against great kingdoms, of war and of calamity and of pestilence."  (Jeremiah 28:8)

How were these long dead prophets from eternal times?

"I descended to the roots of the mountains.  The earth with its bars was around me forever (aion), but You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God."  (Jonah 2:6)

Jonah says here that he was in the belly of the whale "forever," but we know it was only for 3 days.

"Behold, these are the wicked; and at ease forever (aion), they have increased in wealth."  (Psalm 73:12)

We know that the Bible also talks about the wicked's prosperity coming to an end and that they will be judged for their deeds, so they cannot be at ease forever.

"No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of their descendants, even to the tenth generation, they shall not enter the assembly of the LORD forever (aion)."  (Deuteronomy 23:3)

Here "forever" only lasts until the 10th generation.

"But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, 'I will not go up until the child is weaned; then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD and stay there forever (aion).'"  (1 Samuel 1:22)

Samuel did not live in the temple forever.

"Therefore, the leprosy of Naaman shall cling to you and to your descendants forever (ton aion). So he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow..."  (2 Kings 5:27)

Perhaps this is still true, perhaps Gehazi's descendents to this day still all suffer from leprosy, but I doubt it.  Leprosy has mostly been eradicated.

"Remember the former things long (aion) past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me," (Isaiah 46:9)

How can they be 'forever' past?

"For the enemy has persecuted my soul; he has crushed my life to the ground; he has made me dwell in dark places, like those who have long (aion) been dead."  (Psalm 143:3)

It is not possible for them to have been dead forever.  The same exact phrase is found in Lamentations 3:6.

"You, O LORD, rule forever (aion); Your throne is from generation to generation." (Lamentations 5:19)

This is a form of poetry known as Hebrew Parallelism.  It is when you say something, and then repeat it, but with different words.  The second line is equal to first.  So here "forever" (or aion) means the same thing as "from generation to generation."

"then you shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever (aion)."  (Deuteronomy 15:17)

He will really only be able to be a servant until he dies.

David wrote in a Psalm about God's blessings upon him as a king.  One of the blessings was for his length of life to be extended.

"He asked life of You, You gave it to him, length of days forever and ever (eis aiona aionos."  (Psalm 21:4)

But we know that David didn't live forever; he died.  We also know that nobody's earthly life will last forever.

Speaking to the nation of Judah God says,

"I will put an everlasting (aionios) reproach on you and an everlasting (aionios) humiliation which will not be forgotten."  (Jeremiah 32:40)

But God also says later on that,

"after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, all of Israel will be saved."  (Romans 11:25,26.)

So their "eternal" reproach and humiliation is only for a limited duration.

Speaking about the sun, moon and stars in Psalm 148:1-6 David declares that,

"[God] has also established them forever and ever (ton aiona tou aionos – to the age of the ages); He has made a decree which will not pass away."

And yet the Bible says that all these things will pass away one day (see Luke 21:33; Hebrews 1:11,12 and 2 Peter 3:10).

The Hebrew and Greek languages use these words (aion, aionios and olam) to speak of 'days of old,' (Deuteronomy 32:7; Isaiah 63:9; Amos 9:11 and etc...) 'generations of old,' (Isaiah 51:9) 'people of old,' (Ezekiel 26:20) not to mention that David's seed is said to endure "forever," (Psalm 89:4) his throne is to be "forever" and his house is to continue "forever;" (2 Samuel 7:16; 1 Kings 2:45 and etc...) the Passover is also declared to endure "forever."  (Exodus 12:24)

In Isaiah 32:14, the forts and towers were to be "dens forever, until the spirit is poured upon us."  The smoke of Idumea was to ascend forever, (Isaiah 34:10) though it no longer rises.  The priesthood of Aaron was to exist forever (Exodus 40:15; Numbers 25:13; Leviticus 16:34) and continue through everlasting duration; but Christ's priesthood replaced it.  Solomon's temple was to last forever (1 Chronicles 17:12), although it has long since ceased to be; and was really replaced by the new temple of our body.

As I said above, there are literally hundreds of verses that we could look at, which we don't have time for, but I think that what little I have shown gives you a good sense of how the Septuagint uses the words aion and aionios.

This is how the Greek speaking Jews in the time of Jesus understood these words.  Not in the sense of endlessness, but in the sense of an age,belonging to an age, or something 'hidden' or 'just over the horizon' or even' just over the horizon and further on'.

Here's a pertinent point /question...wouldn't the Jewish and Greek speaking Christians of the early church  been mighty confused if 'aionios' meant something to do with 'age' in the Greek Septuagint Old Testament but meant 'eternal' and 'never- ending' in the Greek New Testament ?...when did this supposed change in meaning take place ?...the ECTers claim that the meaning of 'aionios' changed to mean 'eternal' but there's absolutely no evidence of this.

Why wont the proponents of ECT like 'ps' take into account the crucial evidence of the Greek translation of the OT?..the Septuagint ?.

Just goes to show how biased they are, not to even consider this crucial evidence.

This evidence is the death knell for the idea that 'aionios' always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament.

Quote from: darryl on May 20, 2016, 03:09:03 PM
the following passage answers the objections of  'ps' decisively...2 Peter 3:9  says  ( Strong's definitions included) , ' The Lord is not (Gk= 'ou'= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Gk= 'me'= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( the Greek word for 'willing' is = 'boúlomai' ="resolutely plan",planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Gk= 'tis'= anyone at all )  to perish, but everyone (Gk ='pantas' = all, everyone)  to come to repentance'.

The Greek word 'boulomai' is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is 'resolutely planning' for all to come to repentance.

So, God does not 'merely desire' all to be saved, He is resolutely planning toward all being saved. ( What does repentance lead to ?..it leads to salvation) .

Therefore, what Almighty God 'resolutely plans', MUST happen.It's actually almost blasphemy to say God will fail to achieve that which He is resolutely planning.

Regarding 2 Pet 3:9, consider all of 2 Pet 3:2-15 and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617.

Regarding God's will/counsel/purpose being rejectable, see Luke 7:30,  and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198848/#msg198848.

Regarding septuagint (your next post) and Peter and John in Acts as well, I did consider them, and apparently my idea of correction being to restore one to position/capabilities they previously had, and your idea, whatever that may be, are different, as neither Jeremiah, nor Peter and co. were going to be restored from death to the life from which they were being punished, nor the priests restored to a position of coming into the presence of God.  You may note that elsewhere a different word (G3811) is used for 'punish' in connection with being released/disciplined/corrected, a few being Luke 23:16,22, 1Cor11:32, 2Cor6:9, Rev 3:19.

It seems likely to me the Council did want to 'cut off' Peter and John's lives as with Jeremiah and his enemies, not 'correct' them.  They only 'threatened' them, when they found themselves unable to cut them off due to fear of the people.

Quote from: darryl on May 20, 2016, 03:20:41 PM
hello again, ps....please do not forget the importance of the Septuagint in these discussions.

Why wont the proponents of ECT like 'ps' take into account the crucial evidence of the Greek translation of the OT?..the Septuagint ?.

Just goes to show how biased they are, not to even consider this crucial evidence.

I have not forgotten it, and have discussed my observations elsewhere in this thread.

Your conclusions, and apparent notions of 'correction', seemingly differ from mine.

So be it.

Quote from: darryl on May 20, 2016, 03:20:41 PM

This evidence is the death knell for the idea that 'aionios' always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament.[/b]

I do not think I claimed anywhere that aionio- "always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament".

I do however claim that it could readily have sometimes indicated unending, and earlier showed how that was likely very true for the kingdom in Matt 25:46 (Luke 1:33). [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617]

I will also note that you like to point out how 'eternity' might not be eternal, but claim that 'death' is all death, apparently ignoring various contexts of usage,  such as the limitation of 'all' in 2 Pet 3:2-15, where the contextual scope was that of 'all' before the 'promise' of Jesus coming, in that context his second coming (the millennial reign), also previously discussed in one of my earlier posts [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617].

One other example of such non-inclusive scope can be seen in Luke 11:50-51, where Jesus spoke of the blood of the prophets being charged against that generation.  But the larger context suggests it was probably limited to Pharisees and lawyers - and yet there were apparently some among them some who believed, coming to him at night.

The truth will likely be known by both of us with certainty at the end of the millennial reign.

Quote from: trettep on May 19, 2016, 12:57:01 AM
Hi PS.

Aionios doesn't speak to an endpoint at all.  It simply refers to a continuing point.  It's an adjective as you probably are already aware.  It means something that CONTINUES beyond the age boundary without an reference to when it ends.   It doesn't address the end or length of the duration beyond the age boundary at all.

So aionios punishment would be punishment that exists in the age and will continue to exist beyond the age.  The same with aionios Life.  This means it would be Life that exist within the age and continues to exist beyond the age.  But it is interesting in that this is within the context of the experience of the age.

For example, if I one is said to have aionios life and they die it doesn't mean that the Life they have is continuing while that person is in fact dead but, to the life of that person - it continues beyond the age as they are re-acquainted with that life.

By the way, my understanding of this definition of aionios is consistent with Greek Linguist LENNEP.

Quote from: Hannibal Flavius on May 20, 2016, 08:03:28 PM

Quote from: trettep on May 20, 2016, 06:09:23 PM

Quote from: trettep on May 19, 2016, 12:57:01 AM
Hi PS.

Aionios doesn't speak to an endpoint at all.  It simply refers to a continuing point.  It's an adjective as you probably are already aware.  It means something that CONTINUES beyond the age boundary without an reference to when it ends.   It doesn't address the end or length of the duration beyond the age boundary at all.

So aionios punishment would be punishment that exists in the age and will continue to exist beyond the age.  The same with aionios Life.  This means it would be Life that exist within the age and continues to exist beyond the age.  But it is interesting in that this is within the context of the experience of the age.

For example, if I one is said to have aionios life and they die it doesn't mean that the Life they have is continuing while that person is in fact dead but, to the life of that person - it continues beyond the age as they are re-acquainted with that life.

By the way, my understanding of this definition of aionios is consistent with Greek Linguist LENNEP.

Hey Trettep, I know you from one forum or the other, can't remember, you recognize me? Maybe I was Jacob Rising.

Yes, I believe I remember the name Jacob Rising.  Not sure which forum though.

Quote from: ps on May 20, 2016, 04:41:43 PM


, nor the priests restored to a position of coming into the presence of God. 

Ezekial 44: 14. "Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the house, of all its service and of all that shall be done in it'.

I note that God was very gracious toward these wicked priests and they were still able to act as priests in the new temple, to perform very important spiritual and religious duties in and of the Holy Temple...however, they were not allowed to enter the most Holy place and minister directly to God

God did not kill them or order them killed (cut off) or flogged or tortured (unlike what those believing in 'eternal torment' say God is going to do to the so called  'eternally lost'.)...

in fact God appointed these backslidden priests with the all important task of running the Holy Temple !.

yes, they were not able to enter the Holy of Holies but the Bible does not say this was to be a permanent condition..there was still a possibility they were fully restored at a later date ...

at any rate, the priests plainly suffered, at the most, non physical 'chastisement' not vindictive  physical 'capital punishment' for their wickedness.

This passage ( Ezekial 44: 9-14 ) fully supports 'kolasis' as meaning 'chastisement' or 'correction' with the idea of teaching the perpetrator (in this case the wicked priests )  a lesson .   This passage plainly does not support the idea of 'kolasis' meaning harsh vindictive punishment for the benefit or pleasure of the one meting out the punishment.

Quote from: ps on May 20, 2016, 04:41:43 PM

Regarding 2 Pet 3:9, consider all of 2 Pet 3:2-15 and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617.

Regarding God's will/counsel/purpose being rejectable, see Luke 7:30,  and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198848/#msg198848.

you still have not addressed the use of the Greek word 'boulomai' ('resolutely plan' ) in 2 Peter 3:9 and how the word reflects on the utter certainty that God will get His way and ALL will ultimately come to repentance and not perish.

Quote from: ps on May 20, 2016, 05:20:39 PM

Quote from: darryl on May 20, 2016, 03:20:41 PM
hello again, ps....please do not forget the importance of the Septuagint in these discussions.

Why wont the proponents of ECT like 'ps' take into account the crucial evidence of the Greek translation of the OT?..the Septuagint ?.

Just goes to show how biased they are, not to even consider this crucial evidence.

I have not forgotten it, and have discussed my observations elsewhere in this thread.

Your conclusions, and apparent notions of 'correction', seemingly differ from mine.

So be it.

Quote from: darryl on May 20, 2016, 03:20:41 PM

This evidence is the death knell for the idea that 'aionios' always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament.[/b]

I do not think I claimed anywhere that aionio- "always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament".

I do however claim that it could readily have sometimes indicated unending, and earlier showed how that was likely very true for the kingdom in Matt 25:46 (Luke 1:33). [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617]

I will also note that you like to point out how 'eternity' might not be eternal, but claim that 'death' is all death, apparently ignoring various contexts of usage,  such as the limitation of 'all' in 2 Pet 3:2-15, where the contextual scope was that of 'all' before the 'promise' of Jesus coming, in that context his second coming (the millennial reign), also previously discussed in one of my earlier posts [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617].

One other example of such non-inclusive scope can be seen in Luke 11:50-51, where Jesus spoke of the blood of the prophets being charged against that generation.  But the larger context suggests it was probably limited to Pharisees and lawyers - and yet there were apparently some among them some who believed, coming to him at night.

The truth will likely be known by both of us with certainty at the end of the millennial reign.

ahhh !, bingo !..you finally admit it. 'Aionios' does not always mean 'eternal' in the Bible...so, how do you know with such certainty that it means 'eternal' in Mt. 25:46 ?...you simply cannot know it means 'eternal' in Mathew 25:46, a verse which is pivotal to your case for the eternal torment of the 'lost'.Your case collapses, I will not rub it in.. I have made my point.

Quote from: darryl on May 21, 2016, 12:23:13 AM

Quote from: ps on May 20, 2016, 04:41:43 PM

Regarding 2 Pet 3:9, consider all of 2 Pet 3:2-15 and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617.

Regarding God's will/counsel/purpose being rejectable, see Luke 7:30,  and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198848/#msg198848.

you still have not addressed the use of the Greek word 'boulomai' ('resolutely plan' ) in 2 Peter 3:9

Well, I tried to, by pointing you to Luke 7:30, for your review, as you have quoted.

Quote from: darryl on May 21, 2016, 12:23:13 AM
and how the word reflects on the utter certainty that God will get His way and ALL will ultimately come to repentance and not perish.

I'll try to explain further.
Luke 7:30 contains (NASB) "But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John."
The Pharisees and  lawyers could only have been baptized by John while he was alive.
They did not do this, they "rejected God's purpose for themselves", John died, that purpose cannot be fulfilled.
The word "purpose" is a noun per Strong's, boule (G1012), reportedly derived from the verb you have mentioned, boulomai (G1014), thus generally expected to be very related in meaning.
The pharisees and lawyers thus successfully rejected God's purpose.

I also pointed out the rest of the passage in 2nd peter surrounding v9.  How, Peter was addressing the (presumed) delay in the coming of Jesus (at this point in Peter's life, this would be Jesus 2nd coming, or his return), and explaining that the (presumed) delay was SO THAT all, that would be all prior to Jesus return, could be saved.  If, the salvation could occur after Jesus return, relative to the apparent explanation of the delay, then this passage's point is useless, as the salvation of all would not be a valid reason for any delay.

I did not previously point out, but in v7, in the same passage, Peter also speaks of that which is "kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men", and please note this is in the same passage, approx v2-15, where Peter in v9 is speaking of 'all' being saved.

So, God apparently has an intention of the 'destruction' of ungodly men, in spite of the plan He has made and executed, by which they could all be saved.

summary

Luke 7:30 is an example of man resolutely, successfully, resisting God's plan.

2 Pet 3:2-15 indicates God has a plan, and apparently it stems from his desire that all be saved, but apparently, v7, part of that plan is also that those who are not saved encounter 'destruction'.  The word destruction is apoleia, G684, which apparently does not suffer from any uncertainty similar to kolasi-, regarding its meaning.

The 'all' to be saved, as mentioned by Peter, was(/is) to be within the time period Peter is addressing, which was prior to the (promise of) his coming, or return to receive his kingdom/bride.  At least, as far as 2 Pet 3:2-15, and thus v9, are addressing.

The destruction and salvation are both spoken of in this passage, relative to Jesus 2nd coming, or his return (John 14:3 "... I will come again and receive you to Myself...").

Quote from: darryl on May 21, 2016, 12:31:42 AM

Quote from: ps on May 20, 2016, 05:20:39 PM
I do not think I claimed anywhere that aionio- "always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament".

I do however claim that it could readily have sometimes indicated unending, and earlier showed how that was likely very true for the kingdom in Matt 25:46 (Luke 1:33). [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617]

I will also note that you like to point out how 'eternity' might not be eternal, but claim that 'death' is all death, apparently ignoring various contexts of usage,  such as the limitation of 'all' in 2 Pet 3:2-15, where the contextual scope was that of 'all' before the 'promise' of Jesus coming, in that context his second coming (the millennial reign), also previously discussed in one of my earlier posts [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617].

One other example of such non-inclusive scope can be seen in Luke 11:50-51, where Jesus spoke of the blood of the prophets being charged against that generation.  But the larger context suggests it was probably limited to Pharisees and lawyers - and yet there were apparently some among them some who believed, coming to him at night.

The truth will likely be known by both of us with certainty at the end of the millennial reign.

ahhh !, bingo !..you finally admit it. 'Aionios' does not always mean 'eternal' in the Bible...so, how do you know with such certainty that it means 'eternal' in Mt. 25:46 ?...you simply cannot know it means 'eternal' in Mathew 25:46, a verse which is pivotal to your case for the eternal torment of the 'lost'.Your case collapses,

No darryl, my case was that aionio- was likely to mean un-ending considering the larger passage Mt 25:31-46, since v46 is a recap/summary of v34 and v41, both of which are relative to the start/coming of Jesus kingdom v31, and Luke 1:33 which indicates the kingdom is to be ageS without end, not that the punishment necessarily required torment.  I stated elsewhere the torment might be implied from the 'fire' of v41, but not specifically of the kolasi- usage.

Quote from: darryl on May 21, 2016, 12:31:42 AM
I will not rub it in.. I have made my point.

Likewise, Mt 25:46 is not pivotal.  It is merely the passage that was under consideration in this thread, and therefore what I originally addressed on-topic.

Even the 2 Pet 3:2-15 passage would seem to explicitly call out God's intent for the ungodly to enter into (non-chastising) destruction (though not necessarily torment), at Jesus return.   I tried to cover that in my previous post here (http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198899/#msg198899 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198899/#msg198899)).

You can try searching for G684 and related (perish/perishing/destroyed/destroy/destroying/destruction possibilities), G3709 (wrath in Jn 3:36), and you will find more than just one passage containing them. 

In John 3:36, what do you think 'abides' (NASB), without any other specific qualification/modification, might reasonably mean regarding the time period involved (and again another contrasting passage, this one with aionio-life/meno-wrath, rather than Mt 25:46 ainio-life/aionio-punishment)?

Quote from: Hannibal Flavius on May 24, 2016, 11:32:46 PM


The word," Forever."

I don't know if this might mean anything to anyone but I was speaking to an Orthodox Jew who informed me that," Four ever," has everything to do with the number 4.

That 4 days after Adam the Messiah would come teaching the secrets of Torah, and then there are some things in the Talmud that insinuate that the law of Moses would be replaced and it would no longer be said," An eye for an eye," but a new law would come into view, and this is the secret laws behind every law of Moses.

Sometimes I think of that lamb being hidden from the tenth to the 14th because I think I read something like that somewhere. That the lamb would be hidden 4 days, 4 thousand years.

What occurs to me in looking at the 4th day is that it is Pentecost, the 4th day in a week, the 4th appointed visitation day of God within 7 appointed days.

Well you would actually have to know what Hebrew word your friend was referring to that was translated as forever.  There are many different words translated as forever in the Bible.

Quote from: ps on May 23, 2016, 05:51:59 PM

Quote from: darryl on May 21, 2016, 12:31:42 AM

Quote from: ps on May 20, 2016, 05:20:39 PM
I do not think I claimed anywhere that aionio- "always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament".

I do however claim that it could readily have sometimes indicated unending, and earlier showed how that was likely very true for the kingdom in Matt 25:46 (Luke 1:33). [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617]

I will also note that you like to point out how 'eternity' might not be eternal, but claim that 'death' is all death, apparently ignoring various contexts of usage,  such as the limitation of 'all' in 2 Pet 3:2-15, where the contextual scope was that of 'all' before the 'promise' of Jesus coming, in that context his second coming (the millennial reign), also previously discussed in one of my earlier posts [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617].

One other example of such non-inclusive scope can be seen in Luke 11:50-51, where Jesus spoke of the blood of the prophets being charged against that generation.  But the larger context suggests it was probably limited to Pharisees and lawyers - and yet there were apparently some among them some who believed, coming to him at night.

The truth will likely be known by both of us with certainty at the end of the millennial reign.

ahhh !, bingo !..you finally admit it. 'Aionios' does not always mean 'eternal' in the Bible...so, how do you know with such certainty that it means 'eternal' in Mt. 25:46 ?...you simply cannot know it means 'eternal' in Mathew 25:46, a verse which is pivotal to your case for the eternal torment of the 'lost'.Your case collapses,

No darryl, my case was that aionio- was likely to mean un-ending considering the larger passage Mt 25:31-46, since v46 is a recap/summary of v34 and v41, both of which are relative to the start/coming of Jesus kingdom v31, and Luke 1:33 which indicates the kingdom is to be ageS without end, not that the punishment necessarily required torment.  I stated elsewhere the torment might be implied from the 'fire' of v41, but not specifically of the kolasi- usage.

Quote from: darryl on May 21, 2016, 12:31:42 AM
I will not rub it in.. I have made my point.

Likewise, Mt 25:46 is not pivotal.  It is merely the passage that was under consideration in this thread, and therefore what I originally addressed on-topic.

Even the 2 Pet 3:2-15 passage would seem to explicitly call out God's intent for the ungodly to enter into (non-chastising) destruction (though not necessarily torment), at Jesus return.   I tried to cover that in my previous post here (http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198899/#msg198899 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198899/#msg198899)).

You can try searching for G684 and related (perish/perishing/destroyed/destroy/destroying/destruction possibilities), G3709 (wrath in Jn 3:36), and you will find more than just one passage containing them. 

In John 3:36, what do you think 'abides' (NASB), without any other specific qualification/modification, might reasonably mean regarding the time period involved (and again another contrasting passage, this one with aionio-life/meno-wrath, rather than Mt 25:46 ainio-life/aionio-punishment)?

John 3:36?, hmmmm..well,'abides' denotes 'remains'..it remains till such time as it's 'removed' when the person repents, whether in this life or the 'next existence'...I dont see any problem with that...as for your reasoning on 2 Peter3 "19 and 'aionios' I'm not trying to be rude I appreciate your opinions but it seems a bit convoluted, buddy  :dontknow:..I'm just reading the passages plainly..trying to get at the plain meaning not twist it every which way and jump here and there  :declare:...never mind, it's a free country..believe what you want, I'll believe what I want !..we agree to disagree...I believe the evidence supports my view... :dsunny:

Quote from: Hannibal Flavius on May 25, 2016, 02:30:44 AM

Quote from: trettep on May 25, 2016, 12:47:57 AM

Quote from: Hannibal Flavius on May 24, 2016, 11:32:46 PM


The word," Forever."

I don't know if this might mean anything to anyone but I was speaking to an Orthodox Jew who informed me that," Four ever," has everything to do with the number 4.

That 4 days after Adam the Messiah would come teaching the secrets of Torah, and then there are some things in the Talmud that insinuate that the law of Moses would be replaced and it would no longer be said," An eye for an eye," but a new law would come into view, and this is the secret laws behind every law of Moses.

Sometimes I think of that lamb being hidden from the tenth to the 14th because I think I read something like that somewhere. That the lamb would be hidden 4 days, 4 thousand years.

What occurs to me in looking at the 4th day is that it is Pentecost, the 4th day in a week, the 4th appointed visitation day of God within 7 appointed days.

Well you would actually have to know what Hebrew word your friend was referring to that was translated as forever.  There are many different words translated as forever in the Bible.

My best friend was the greatest Hebrew teacher of all, but me, I can't keep up. The person who told me about the word ," Forever," was saying this when it says," You shall keep my law forever." She implied that it meant ," 4." that after 4000 years in her opinion but she didn't believe in Jesus and it's funny how many things can get you to him. Messiah came teaching secrets of Torah after 4 days.

Well given that we don't know which verse the understanding was presented from or what Hebrew form.  Let's look at the comment of that "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" would be abolished.  I don't believe this to be true.  I believe God is indeed exacting an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth by not in the PHYSICAL sense but in the Spiritual Sense.  Consider that God destroys our spirit by replacing with His Own Spirit.  That our deeds are replaced with His deeds.  Let's also look at the fact that offences in the Old Testament called for being stoned to death.  Jesus called His Apostles 'stones'.  Again, this is telling us that God is going to stone us to death by means of His Apostles testimonies.  Further more.  Let's also understand that Jesus said to take TWO SWORDS and this was ENOUGH.  It is ENOUGH because it takes only TWO witness to put someone to death.  And the Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit.  So when Jesus sent out his Apostles two by two - he was sending them out with the Word of God by 2's to essentially PUT US TO DEATH. 

So the whole concept of eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth is not abolished - it is just in the vantage point.  Those that error see this from the fleshy perspective those that judge rightly view this from the Spirit.

Quote from: ps on May 23, 2016, 05:23:52 PM

So, God apparently has an intention of the 'destruction' of ungodly men, in spite of the plan He has made and executed, by which they could all be saved.

note - (imo) :smile:
the verse 2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. - I believe this is at Jesus' return.. a "day" of 'judgment' when the sheep are gathered (the wheat into His barn) and the goats are not (except as tares to be burned - "and they gathered to Armageddon" Rev 16:14-16 and to that fire..)

One business man may say to another.. "I will destroy you!" but it does not (necessarily) mean annihilate.. {don't know if this was mentioned or not.. reading on now..
        :smile:

Quote from: Hannibal Flavius on May 25, 2016, 02:30:44 AM

What occurs to me in looking at the 4th day is that it is Pentecost, the 4th day in a week, the 4th appointed visitation day of God within 7 appointed days.

...I'm assuming (tho wanted to clarify) you mean by Pentecost being the 4th day in a week? merely, "the 4th appointed visitation day of God within 7 appointed days" as Pentecost of course, being 7 weeks "to the day" (50 days inclusive) after "Firstfruits" fell upon the same day of the week as "Firstfruits" which always followed the weekly Sabbath of spring holy week - Lev 23:10,11,15,16

I was thinking these verses apply here in this thread.. but now I can't remember why.. came across them in another 'study'..

Daniel 7:14
"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed."

Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

1 Timothy 6:16
"Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.... (Young's Literal - "to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen.")
   :Peace2: :smile:

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. 8You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.

Passover ----------------Blood begets Body            Redemption & Release
Unleavened bread-------Word sanctifies Body         Reconciliation & Revelation
Firstfruits --------------Spirit sows the Body          Resurrection & Reproduction   
Pentecost-------------Body reaps the World          Reaping & Restoration

Quote from: Truth seeker on March 17, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Hi Everyone,
In my efforts to understand the greek translations more I stumbled upon this article: http://www.daily-bible-study-tips.com/Reader-Questions-Answered/Greek-Matthew-25-46.htm :Chinscratch:

Great question! I read through this and found it almost ludicrous! There's a magnificent article on www.mercifultruth.com, at
http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity-detailedstudy.html  which I think refutes all these claims very logically and categorically.

To upright and outright state that aion and aionios are different is like saying that "hour" and "hourly" are completely different. I'm convinced that they see what they want to see. (I could be like that however...)

Before I launch into my discourse on "eternity" vs. aionios, can I point out that this parable has **absolutely nothing** to do with the damned, sinners and the like?
These goats are people who clearly claimed to believe in Jesus. "Lord, Lord!" they say! None of them are saying, "Well, look Jesus, whoever you are, we were never really clear about your identity."

The only difference between the SHEEP and GOATS is what they DID and DIDN't DO (thanks Keith Green!) So if they want to take this literally, then all the fornicators, theives, homosexuals and liars who nonetheless volunteered at homeless shelters, lobbied for prisoner rights, fed orphans, are the ones who make it into heaven. Do they really want to take this word for word? Are the sheep the ones that said the Sinner's Prayer and meant it? Not according to this parable.
Which is it, I ask?


BUT if aionios cannot be translated as anything other than "eternal" I would like them to explain the very interesting verses where aionios is NOT translated as eternal cuz it simply won't fit.
(I notice that Daily Bible Study Tips claims that aionios can only not mean eternity when it has a chronos in front of it. I don't think that could hold water)

Matthew28:20 ...Lo, I am with you to the end of the age...
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ' ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος [AIONION]

So the word at the end there is form of aionios, but they can't possible interpret it as:

LO, I am with you to the end of ETERNITY

cuz that don't make no kinda sense....

So which is it??

Or this:
Romans 16:25
... in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου χρόνοις αἰωνίοις σεσιγημένου,

the second to last word also being AIONIOS, so it would be, according to "eternity" be:

Hidden for "eternity" past

which ALSO doesn't work!

So, when it doesn't fit the language any other way, AIONIOS is "LONG AGES" or "AGE" but when referring to Punishment, it's Eternal / Eternity?

Very selective and seems either like error or worse, dogmatic insistence on bad translation.

2Tim 1:9 also has an example,
πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων
translated as:

before the beginning of (aionios) --

Does eternity have a beginning?

Look at how the translators get around that one:

NIV
before the beginning of time

ESV
before the ages began,

NASB
from all eternity, (NOT FAIR!)

KJV
before the world began (aionios = world)

For the most amazing yet difficult translation, try Young's Literal Translation: he doesn't do the thinking for you, he simply translates word for word without assumptions or presuppositions. Very hard to read poetically and for inspiration, but it's my go-to for accuracy on these UR topics.

YLT
before the times of the ages

Nothing like an honest translator

Matthew 25:46 (My rough cut -- with emphasis mine)
And these will go off [themselves] (Middle voice) TO aionios restriction, BUT (however) the righteous TO aionios life."

YHV Lexicon:

go off (G565 verb aperchomai; to go/depart away from/off) John 4:3

*It does not read "send" in this Matthew 25:46 verse.

restriction (G2851 feminine noun kolasis; a curtailment/confinement) Matthew 25:46

*It does not read "lake of fire" or "the second death."

aionios/age-abiding (G166 adjective aionios; of a [hidden] age/eon [in God's time], an eonian/aionian/age-abiding/age-long/age-enduring [quality/state/condition in time/life], always/ever existing/living/enduring [time/life on earth]. Possibly/figuratively: relatively eternal) John 3:15

E.g. John 3:16
For the God so loved the world, therefore He gave the only-begotten son of His, in order that the every [human] having faith TO (Accusative) him should NOT lose [himself] (Middle Voice), but may [now] (or [from now on]) have (present active Subjunctive) aionios life;

E.g. John 5:24
Amen, Amen, I utter to you, that the [one] hearing the word of me and having faith in (Dative) the [One] having sent me [now] (or [from now on]) has (present active Indicative) aionios life, and cometh not TO judgment, but has [already] moved (perfect active Indicative) out of the death TO the life.

E.g. John 6:40
BUT this is the will of the [One] having sent me: in order that the every [one] spectating the son, and having faith TO him may [now] (or [from now on]) have (present active Subjunctive) aionios life, and (also) I will raise (future active Indicative) him in the last day."

E.g. John 12:50
and I have known that the commandment of His [now] is (present active Indicative) aionios life. I speak then: what [SAYINGS] as the Father has spoken [out] to me, so I speak."

E.g. John 17:3 (Yehshua taught)
"BUT (However,) this is the aionios life: in order that they may [now] experientially know (present active Subjunctive) You, the only TRUE God, and Anointed Yehshua whom You SENT."

destroy/lose (G622 verb apollymi; to destroy/lose, to be ruined/lost. Antonym of save/find) John 3:16

E.g. John 3:16
For the God so loved the world, therefore He gave the only-begotten the son of His, in order that the every [human] having faith TO him should NOT lose [himself] (aorist middle Subjunctive), but may have aionios life;

E.g. Luke 15:24
because this son of me was dead, and lived again; was being lost, and was found.'

E.g. Matthew 15:24
BUT the [one] answering said, "I was not SENT supposing NOT TO the sheep being lost; the [sheep] of Israel's house."

E.g. John 18:9
In order that the word should be fulfilled, which he said that, 'Whom Thou hast given to me, I lost not: not even one out of them.'

*It should not be rendered "perish" in this Matthew 25:46 verse.

destruction (G684 feminine noun apoleia; a loss/ruin. Figuratively: a waste, the antonym of safety/salvation) John 17:12

destruction – See ruination (masculine noun olethros; the ruin/destruction. Figuratively: the death)

*It does not read "ruination" in this Matthew 25:46 verse.

eternal (G126 adjective aidios; everlasting) Romans 1:20

*It does not read "eternal" in this Matthew 25:46 verse.

Cheers!

Amen!  :thumbsup:

Matthew 25:46 - "And these shall go away to correction age-lasting, but the righteous to life age-lasting."
(The two resurrections? Into the millennium, or into Judgment 'Day'/Correction; imo)

Quote
"E.g.  Luke 15:24
because this son of me was dead, and lived again; was being lost, and was found.' "

Perfect - which surely(?) Yahweh is - can lose nothing! The Almighty.. surely is, "all mighty"! :laughing7:

There is another view, that the first resurrection (initiating the millenial reign at Christ's return) is for the overcomers in Christ- the revelation of the sons of God, perhaps even the faithful from all the ages.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.
Heb 11

In the second resurrection at the end of the millenium,  all the rest of the dead will be raised, but as I read it, not all of those will be sent into correction, only those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life.

I believe there are/were righteous in every generation from the beginning, in every far flung culture, nation and time. God knows who they are and they will recognize Him on that day that awaits everyone who does not partake in the first resurrection.

All those from the former ages, those from all over the world that never heard the law, those from this age who never heard the gospel, all those who died during the millenium. They will be judged at the great white throne "by the secrets of their hearts "

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Romans 2:14-16

Every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him. Some will cry out to the mountains and the rocks... "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"(Rev 6:16; Luke 23:20) Some will rejoice to see Him.

In Rev 20

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

It seems(to me) obvious that many names, from amongst all the rest of the dead who died in other ages, will be found in the Lamb's book of life, and will not go into the lake of fire for pruning/purification- they will rejoice to see Him and their knees will bow and their tongues confess His name and the their conscience will excuse them in the light of the Day, which is His presence.

"His face was like the sun shining in its glory".

From another site discussing Matthew, I offer the following for consideration.
---

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.

This is a mistranslated verse, which first appeared as a mistranslation in the Latin Vulgate around 400 AD in support of the Roman Catholic doctrine of hell. The KJV and other subsequent versions of the Bible that support the doctrine of hell have carried forward this mistranslated verse into their own versions.

Augustine (354-430 AD), a fifth century Roman Catholic saint, who championed the doctrine of hell, depended heavily on this single verse to argue the case for endless punishment of unbelievers in hell. Augustine argued that since Jesus used the same word aionios to describe both the duration of the future punishment of unbelievers and the future life of the righteous, then it necessarily follows that the future punishment of unbelievers will be everlasting just like the future life of the righteous.

The problem Augustine had was that he strongly believed in the pagan doctrine of hell and he totally ignored, or was ignorant of the fact, that aion and its adjective aionios have two meanings in the Bible of age and everlasting depending on their context.

So let's understand the correct translation of Matthew 25:46 and the true meaning of what Jesus Christ is saying in this verse.

To translate aionios punishment to mean everlasting or eternal punishment is a mistranslation because it brings contradiction into the Word of God. In addition to this, it should be noted that the Greek word for punishment used in Matthew 25:46 is kolasis, and the meaning of kolasis is 'corrective punishment' as confirmed by Strong's Concordance number G2851. So, the true meaning of Matthew 25:46 as dictated by the context is:

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into age-to-come, age-lasting (aionios) corrective punishment (kolasis), but the righteous into age-to-come eternal (aionios) life.

This is the true meaning of this scripture as originally inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it does not introduce any contradictions whatsoever into the Word of God.
---

I'm guessing they are saying because aionios is being applied in reference to God's nature and gift, it means eternal, but the corrective punishment is not as His wrath or correction is not eternal, but given to serve His ultimate purposes.

Quote from: TLP on July 06, 2016, 03:46:21 AM
From another site discussing Matthew, I offer the following for consideration.
---

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.

This is a mistranslated verse, which first appeared as a mistranslation in the Latin Vulgate around 400 AD in support of the Roman Catholic doctrine of hell. The KJV and other subsequent versions of the Bible that support the doctrine of hell have carried forward this mistranslated verse into their own versions.

Augustine (354-430 AD), a fifth century Roman Catholic saint, who championed the doctrine of hell, depended heavily on this single verse to argue the case for endless punishment of unbelievers in hell. Augustine argued that since Jesus used the same word aionios to describe both the duration of the future punishment of unbelievers and the future life of the righteous, then it necessarily follows that the future punishment of unbelievers will be everlasting just like the future life of the righteous.

The problem Augustine had was that he strongly believed in the pagan doctrine of hell and he totally ignored, or was ignorant of the fact, that aion and its adjective aionios have two meanings in the Bible of age and everlasting depending on their context.

So let's understand the correct translation of Matthew 25:46 and the true meaning of what Jesus Christ is saying in this verse.

To translate aionios punishment to mean everlasting or eternal punishment is a mistranslation because it brings contradiction into the Word of God. In addition to this, it should be noted that the Greek word for punishment used in Matthew 25:46 is kolasis, and the meaning of kolasis is 'corrective punishment' as confirmed by Strong's Concordance number G2851. So, the true meaning of Matthew 25:46 as dictated by the context is:

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into age-to-come, age-lasting (aionios) corrective punishment (kolasis), but the righteous into age-to-come eternal (aionios) life.

This is the true meaning of this scripture as originally inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it does not introduce any contradictions whatsoever into the Word of God.
---

I'm guessing they are saying because aionios is being applied in reference to God's nature and gift, it means eternal, but the corrective punishment is not as His wrath or correction is not eternal, but given to serve His ultimate purposes.

How intersting that we wrote, nearly at the same time, these similar posts. That is to say I heartily agree.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/when-is-grace-imputed-or-recieve/msg199849/#new (http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/when-is-grace-imputed-or-recieve/msg199849/#new)

 :iagree: :iagree: good posts!!