I stumbled upon an interesting argument against UR, and as always, definitely wanted to share it with you all.
Found "hidden" in this passage:
" Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. "
The bolded portion (my emphasis) is what was used as a "proof" against universal salvation. It was stated that "Love does not demand its own way" which means that God will not demand that all be saved or "forced" to love Him.
Of course, I don't see the reconciliation as a forceful thing, but I felt this was a unique stab at taking down UR within this verse.
That is different. Hey, why not use it? :laugh:
1 Corinthians 13 New International Version (NIV)
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.
I have read this Bible passage many times, in many different translations, but I never saw that line that you highlighted written that way, before, Forest.
For me, the line that says "Love never fails." is the 'powerful' line......it says to me that God's love will never fail us; that He did not make us to reject Him, our Creator and Savior, but that He made us to love, and to love Him; that we are all made in His image and likeness, and will choose God. His death on the cross was victory over death itself, and His victory will be complete. It will not fail any of us.
D.
Thanks for making us look Forrest ,
James it is the same along the lines of ," Holy Spirit is a gentleman and never forces its self on you ", to me :dunno2:
D love your thoughts .......
◄ 1 Corinthians 13:5 ►
Parallel Verses
New Living Translation
or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged.
King James Bible
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Darby Bible Translation
does not behave in an unseemly manner, does not seek what is its own, is not quickly provoked, does not impute evil,
World English Bible
doesn't behave itself inappropriately, doesn't seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil;
Young's Literal Translation
doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil,
I have thought many times we tend to throw faith out the window , when we begin to argue with God in our own minds and reasoning instead of being thankful for God saving everyone , LIKE HE DID YOU !!
You want to be right and have to be right and argue against even the thought of it and say God is not going to save
everyone because not everyone wants to be saved
Well duh??
But what helped me the most when cutting though all the red tape was this .......... thought
Do we not realize , That we would not even be able to take a breath without Gods help!!!!!!!!!!...
GOD is helping us all and is doing it all the time and in every way possible .
We as humans are just to dense to understand that kind of saving grace in my opinion .
I was like that in my rebellious years , and am sorry for it now , but it was that very substance of faith , that God used to change my own mind and heart and give me a new one that has total faith is the power of God to save anyone at any time and in any place , after literal death even , to really trust HIM DO His perfect work though our Lord Jesus Christ means everything to me now .
But you cannot even change your own mind now , much less anyone else change it for you
When your faith in God is that rock solid by everything given to you , in truth
only a foolish heart could deny His amazing grace
Mercy is one of Gods longsuffering attributes in the Word .
because man desires to bring God down to their level of being right or self -righteous if you will , we fail to see that we must keep on LIFTING HIM UP in holy faith given in thankfulness on behalf of all mankind .
LOVE sounds so fake to the stubborn minded and has been marred by so much sexual immorality , most cannot fathom the true love of God especially on His new creation , because the old is fading away fast .
and the new will be the true and lasting foundation that cannot ever fail , Because GOD IS doing it all , by His own SPIRIT & TRUTH .
I believe we are all just being used to bring it all about , by those powers and principalities in high places in the end GODS GLORY WILL BE MADE KNOWN TO ALL . .
:2c:
Quote from: Forest on June 04, 2019, 05:47:16 AM
I stumbled upon an interesting argument against UR, and as always, definitely wanted to share it with you all.
Found "hidden" in this passage:
" Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. "
The bolded portion (my emphasis) is what was used as a "proof" against universal salvation. It was stated that "Love does not demand its own way" which means that God will not demand that all be saved or "forced" to love Him.
Likely the same people always shout context context!
I see 11 statements that love never stops loving no matter what.
How obvious in this context is to find 1 opposite statement?
It can best be explained in combination with the next statement 'is not irritable'.
When people for example discuss which is the best Bible translations, often irritation flares up because that other person is so stupid and/or stubborn to see Bible-A is by far the best translation.
Love doesn't get irritated. Love just thinks, he/she is studying the Word of God that counts! It's just another literary style teaching the same.
And that's exactly what the bolded part mean.
"it does not demand that only Bible-A is read"
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/love-is-not-irritable
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2019, 08:33:37 PM
Quote from: Forest on June 04, 2019, 05:47:16 AM
I stumbled upon an interesting argument against UR, and as always, definitely wanted to share it with you all.
Found "hidden" in this passage:
" Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. "
The bolded portion (my emphasis) is what was used as a "proof" against universal salvation. It was stated that "Love does not demand its own way" which means that God will not demand that all be saved or "forced" to love Him.
Likely the same people always shout context context!
I see 11 statements that love never stops loving no matter what.
How obvious in this context is to find 1 opposite statement?
It can best be explained in combination with the next statement 'is not irritable'.
When people for example discuss which is the best Bible translations, often irritation flares up because that other person is so stupid and/or stubborn to see Bible-A is by far the best translation.
Love doesn't get irritated. Love just thinks, he/she is studying the Word of God that counts! It's just another literary style teaching the same.
And that's exactly what the bolded part mean.
"it does not demand that only Bible-A is read"
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/love-is-not-irritable
:thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Hi Bro T ,
The only thing I see is jealousy is a form of LOVE and most will fight for what they love ..
Jesus Christ to me is the embodiment of GODS LOVE for us and cannot be refused , if it is , the battle is for those whom the cross of Christ has become no effect Gal 5 ;4 ...3Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the Law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
GOD is a jealous God ex 34 The LORD Renews the Covenant
...13Rather, you must tear down their altars, smash their sacred stones, and chop down their Asherah poles. 14For you must not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
15Do not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you, and you will eat their sacrifices;...
Exodus 20:3
You shall have no other gods before Me.
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
I am just pleading for Gods mercy and grace upon all mankind , because they/we all do not know what they are doing ,being bound up in the law of death
until the Lord comes to show them the way to Life .
for me :2c: good to see you posting again bro missed you , I had been under some binding for a while ,
sorry it was never anyone , it was just my own warring within ...
If God was self-seeking, He would never have come to die in the person of Christ. To me this verse harmonizes with UR, rather than oppose it in any way.
It is a separate issue to His will - He WILL have all to be saved. Also, we are born not of the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but of God. The Holy Spirit did not exactly "woo" Paul when it chucked Him off his horse and blinded him, right?
Quote from: Forest on June 04, 2019, 05:47:16 AM
I stumbled upon an interesting argument against UR, and as always, definitely wanted to share it with you all.
Found "hidden" in this passage:
" Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. "
The bolded portion (my emphasis) is what was used as a "proof" against universal salvation. It was stated that "Love does not demand its own way" which means that God will not demand that all be saved or "forced" to love Him.
:doh: :mshock: ...no He thinks it's more fair to let some (a.) perish for ever, or, (b) worse be physically tormented forever.. :laughing7: Ya almost can't laugh it's so sAd.. But, truly, the ridiculousness wins out.. so, :laughing7:
I LOVE reading the description of "love" / our Father. :cloud9: Isn't it so wonderful to know the truth! :friendstu:
Quote from: Shev on July 04, 2019, 08:22:08 PM
If God was self-seeking, He would never have come to die in the person of Christ. To me this verse harmonizes with UR, rather than oppose it in any way.
It is a separate issue to His will - He WILL have all to be saved. Also, we are born not of the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but of God. The Holy Spirit did not exactly "woo" Paul when it chucked Him off his horse and blinded him, right?
Very interesting! ..And right on.. / amen! Very true.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2019, 08:33:37 PM
Quote from: Forest on June 04, 2019, 05:47:16 AM
I stumbled upon an interesting argument against UR, and as always, definitely wanted to share it with you all.
Found "hidden" in this passage:
" Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. "
The bolded portion (my emphasis) is what was used as a "proof" against universal salvation. It was stated that "Love does not demand its own way" which means that God will not demand that all be saved or "forced" to love Him.
Likely the same people always shout context context!
I see 11 statements that love never stops loving no matter what.
How obvious in this context is to find 1 opposite statement?
It can best be explained in combination with the next statement 'is not irritable'.
When people for example discuss which is the best Bible translations, often irritation flares up because that other person is so stupid and/or stubborn to see Bible-A is by far the best translation.
Love doesn't get irritated. Love just thinks, he/she is studying the Word of God that counts! It's just another literary style teaching the same.
And that's exactly what the bolded part mean.
"it does not demand that only Bible-A is read"
...O wow! Amen!! The verse alone makes the perfect response to that sentiment/insistence.
"...just another literary style teaching the same." - I love that! Amen.
P.S. ....Great thread and posts! :cloud9:
I think about how those who are not saved before death, make the transition to faith. I actually think about it quite a bit, and when I read the Bible, I know I am always on the lookout to clues about how this process works. Not that I think I need to know, but I was always one to ask a lot of questions. I do not think that God forces us, as in a coersive way. God made us, in His image and likeness. For me, it is almost as though He placed a 'homing device' in each of our hearts and souls. That is what I imagine. After all, no one told God how he could and couldn't create us. Perhaps that is why 'the mark of the beast' is so oppositional to God's wishes. Nothing else should pull us towards other influences, except that which God put into us, to bring us all home, and to recognize our Creator.
These are some references regarding that 'every knee shall bow'.
Bible verses related to Every Knee Shall Bow from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance - Sort By Book Order
Philippians 2:10-11 - That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; (Read More...)
Romans 14:11 - For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Philippians 2:9-11 - Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (Read More...)
Isaiah 45:23 - I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Philippians 2:10 - That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:8-11)
Revelation 1:7 - Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 5:13 - And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
I do believe that to see God, is to know Him. No longer will we look through 'a mirror, dimly', but we shall be able to see God, as He truly is, when we pass from death to life.
1 Corinthians 13:
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
So, once we see Him, I believe, we will know who He is....the great, " I am....."
Perhaps, in the journey from death to our new life, this occurs. I don't know, and doubt I will ever know, the process.
But, for me, I have enough confirmation in Bible verses, to believe that this will happen. And, for that, I am very grateful.
D.
Amen, sister D. ...I don't remember if it's in the hebrew or the greek which includes in the meaning and use of the word "confess" is "wholeheartedly" -- which I love thinking the verse says every tongue will wholeheartedly confess Jesus is Lord.. Which to me means every heart will be thoroughly convinced that God's Way is THE way and not only that but will LOVE it being the way.. that ALL will wholeheartedly embrace God as GOD..
Seeing Him as He is.. amen, to trulysee, perceive and understand what He truly is like.. is to love Him! Amen.
I recently have been very excited about this verse - 1 Peter 2:9 - "..God knows how to keep/preserve the un(/not yet) just for CORRECTION" not punishment like we have always been-led to believe "on day of judgment". Which of course Jesus talked about "the judgment".. the queen of the south speaking against the Pharisees.. truth, not condemnation.. how Sodom and Gomorrah will compare to the cities who saw, then rejected Jesus. (Obviously they didn't genuinely SEE Him!)
Years ago pondering and studying, I had the thought what if I were one who "died in my sins" - meaning I assumed, that I would rise still in my sins.. And thus rising ["All in the graves will hear his voice and rise.. some to the resurrection of life and some to the resurrection of judgment" (Jn.5:28)]
..Thus rising and beholding Him, in all His warm and radiant glory, at "the judgment" .. would I "believe"? And thus repent, etc? And I had to think, of course I would. And so I believe the majority will.. others.. predators, hitlers, may require a little longer to be "drawn".. May weep more tears or gnash more teeth in the process - only because God willed it. To let imperfection exist and run a course.. how else to "convince the world of sin"? / of "missing the mark" of God"s perfection i have to assume.. That it can only ever be tribulation, apocalypse (or destruction/collapse) and as the verse says, death. So...no point in any going that way again.
To me, to read it in the scripture is enough for me. I've never looked around for the church or others as to whether or not to believe what I read.. Like in the world, the Word(s) of God strained through the filter of the world, churches, or others. His Word being such a beautiful account and easily understood except for all the many filters..
"God is the savior of all" - "love NEVER fails". Is period. End of story. To be able to read and believe what one reads. Sounds uncomplicated.. "but man has many inventions". Eccles.