Here's an article that sure doesn't sound like Gospel to me:
http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/revival/22679-the-pitfalls-of-false-grace-for-minor-sin
Wonder how y'all would handle 1 Peter 4:18, "And "If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" and Hebrews 10:26-31, "...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins... The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Wonder how y'all would handle Corrie Ten Boom's testimony about the guard.
I just don't know how to argue with this level of polished message.
jerry
1 Peter 4, actually says "if the righteous are through difficulty saved." In other words, the fiery trial of their faith resulting in salvation from sin, growing them and strengthening and thus saving them from the temptation of the flesh. As he said,
1 Peter 4:3
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
His point is that the wicked will have to go through a harder time, not that they cannot be saved. Same goes for Hebrews 10.
More info: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html
I have asked several folks who believe the Bible teaches eternal punishment, is there a verse in the Bible that(without interpretation or theology) will deny.......
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
And deny Jehovah's affirmation.... Isa 55:11 So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that for which I sent it.
Until then, imo, it is not prosperous for me to seek Bible Verses Used to Assert Not All Will be Saved :2c: :dsunny:
:goodpost:
Quote from: GerWat on March 03, 2015, 12:08:54 AM
Here's an article that sure doesn't sound like Gospel to me:
http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/revival/22679-the-pitfalls-of-false-grace-for-minor-sin
Wonder how y'all would handle 1 Peter 4:18, "And "If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" and Hebrews 10:26-31, "...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins... The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Wonder how y'all would handle Corrie Ten Boom's testimony about the guard.
I just don't know how to argue with this level of polished message.
jerry
If I was led to give a theological response, I would handle it like this:
It IS a fearsome thing to fall into the hands of the living God, and God does judge His people. His judgments, however, eventually produce repentence. Whatever the lake of fire is for instance, the issue is whether or not it endures forever. According to many verses, it does not. As the "second death", we kno from 1 Cor 15:22-28, that death is the last adversary, and it will be subjected to Christ and abolished, and God will be all in all, even the adversaries. In Col 1:16-20 we are told that it pleased the Father, "to make all the fulness dwell in Christ, and to reconcile all things to Himself thru the blood of His cross, whether things on earth or things under the earth". In Phil 2:9-11, we are told that 'For this reason(His obedience to death on a cross) God has given Him the name above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
And our Lord Himself said, "If I am lifted up from the earth, I will daw all men unto me." Was He confused? Speaking carelessly?
He also said,
"Behold, I am making all things new".
Who can be made new while in an eternity of torment? In whom, while in eternal torment, can God become all in all? Who while being tormented eternally can be reconciled unto Him?
As to the sacrifice for sins? If one has fulfilled all those terms of Hebrews 10 (tasted of the good word of God, partaken of the Holy Spirit, partaken in the powers of the age to come, then turned away) there
is no sacrifice for their sins, they
will be remanded to the lake of fire for judgment until they bow the knee, and are subjected again to Christ- which all of the verses I quoted(and more) assure.
But even if this were not so, those verses are very specific as to who will incur this wrath, so of the minority that recieve Jesus Chrit in this age, only a very small minority of those, who had partaken of all those things and then turned away from Him, would qualify for such a judgment. Judgement WILL come for such as those, but
it will not endure forever. Only until they are subjected(1 Cor 15:25-28). Only until their knee has bowed(Phil2:11). Then they will be gathered together into one in Christ(Eph 1:9-11) and returned to the Father so that God may become all in all(1 Cor 15:28).
Another question for such a position would be, How do you handle all of those other verses? Are they the Word of God? Are the scripures dependable? Can the scriptures be broken?
Then I might say,
The paradigm we are sharing incorporates ALL of the scriptures. Does yours? :o)
Amen! :iagree: :dsunny: HE IS RISEN!
If I were an atheist or on the fence, and I read this article, the conclusion I would come to is this... I'm going to hell if I'm not "saved", and there's a 95% chance I'm going to hell if I am "saved". What's the point? I'll never be "good" enough. :(
Exactly. Noone has ever been good enough, and no one ever will. That's why it is grace, and that's why all will uultimately be saved.
Rom 11:32
For God has shut up all disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
"For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?"
"Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Hell has so much appeal to the natural man.
We see so many rich people living the high life with no regard for God.
Our natural man says they are not going to get away with it.
God will get them in the afterlife.
The truth is they are forgiven, and by the spirit we can forgive and live a fulfilled life.
They cannot be fulfilled unless by the spirit of God
Quote from: FLSister on March 04, 2015, 02:58:53 AM
If I were an atheist or on the fence, and I read this article, the conclusion I would come to is this... I'm going to hell if I'm not "saved", and there's a 95% chance I'm going to hell if I am "saved". What's the point? I'll never be "good" enough. :(
That's how I see it
Quote from: FLSister on March 04, 2015, 02:58:53 AM
If I were an atheist or on the fence, and I read this article, the conclusion I would come to is this... I'm going to hell if I'm not "saved", and there's a 95% chance I'm going to hell if I am "saved". What's the point? I'll never be "good" enough. :(
Exactly. Noone has ever been good enough, and no one ever will. That's why it is grace, and that's why all will uultimately be saved.
Rom 11:32
For God has shut up all disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
"For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?"
"Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Exactly. Noone has ever been good enough, and no one ever will. That's why it is grace, and that's why all will uultimately be saved.
Rom 11:32
For God has shut up all disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
"For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?"
"Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
The verses that nailed it for me are the ones in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 -
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: [#1]-Christ the firstfruits, afterward [#2]-those who are Christ's at His coming" (1st resurrection). "Then[#3]-comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power." (25 "For He must reign till He has put aLL (enemies) under His feet.")
following is optional - :laughing7: i can never shut up about it..
[but I cannot see an age (aion 4 LOF) between the conclusion of judgment day (Great White Throne) and when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father (aLL things under His feet) but believe judgment day is prophesied by the Day Of Atonement - that the ancient fall holy days prophecy the 2nd advent of our Lord, as the spring ones did His 1st. That the 2nd resurrection having "died in their sins" arrive DOA (dead on arrival), but I believe judgment day lasts 500 years and it's only at the conclusion of it that is said "those not believing (written in the book of life/living) will go to the LOF". After being resurrected, etc, who's not going to repent and believe?
Trumpets -- 10 days later -- DOA (day of atonement) -- 5 days later -- Tabernacles [#3]
1000yrs millenium 500yrs judgment da/BkOfLife
:smile:
i believe no humans in the lof, but instead is outer darkness, and the weeping and wailing of the day of atonement/judgment; the two of rev 19:20 cast into the LOF, being institutions of man active at the time -
Leviticus 23:27-29 (or 24-29)
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 03, 2015, 09:34:38 PM
I have asked several folks who believe the Bible teaches eternal punishment, is there a verse in the Bible that(without interpretation or theology) will deny.......
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
And deny Jehovah's affirmation.... Isa 55:11 So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that for which I sent it.
Until then, imo, it is not prosperous for me to seek Bible Verses Used to Assert Not All Will be Saved :2c: :dsunny:
:thumbsup:
ETers must make hard choices:
CAN God achieve what he desires?
WILL God achieve what he desires?
DOES God desire the salvation of all?
A "no" answer to any of these three questions is conclusively unscriptural resulting in confusion and twisting of scripture. A "yes" answer harmonizes with scripture and concludes that all will be saved. It's an impossible situation for the ET doctrine.
Quote from: marie glen on March 04, 2015, 06:50:30 PM
The verses that nailed it for me are the ones in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 -
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: [#1]-Christ the firstfruits, afterward [#2]-those who are Christ's at His coming" (1st resurrection). "Then[#3]-comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power." (25 "For He must reign till He has put aLL (enemies) under His feet.")
following is optional - :laughing7: i can never shut up about it..
[but I cannot see an age (aion 4 LOF) between the conclusion of judgment day (Great White Throne) and when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father (aLL things under His feet) but believe judgment day is prophesied by the Day Of Atonement - that the ancient fall holy days prophecy the 2nd advent of our Lord, as the spring ones did His 1st. That the 2nd resurrection having "died in their sins" arrive DOA (dead on arrival), but I believe judgment day lasts 500 years and it's only at the conclusion of it that is said "those not believing (written in the book of life/living) will go to the LOF". After being resurrected, etc, who's not going to repent and believe?
Trumpets -- 10 days later -- DOA (day of atonement) -- 5 days later -- Tabernacles [#3]
1000yrs millenium 500yrs judgment da/BkOfLife
:smile:
i believe no humans in the lof, but instead is outer darkness, and the weeping and wailing of the day of atonement/judgment; the two of rev 19:20 cast into the LOF, being institutions of man active at the time -
Leviticus 23:27-29 (or 24-29)
I agree with your statement about 1 Cor 15. However, I cannot see anything other than the dead, great and small, who are raised at the second resurrestion and judged by the things written in the book, (their consciences as per Romans 2) as those who are cast into the lake of fire. This co-ordinates with matthew 25:41 and Rev 14:10; 19:20 ;20-11-14
"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"(Mt) These are individuals.
Rev 19:11-15 This is the second death. And
anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged,
each one according to his works.
I believe these are the same individual people spoken of in Mt 25(Lord, Lord), and Romans 2
Ro 2:6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek......
14 or when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16
in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
It is the secrets of men, not institutions, that are judged at the GWT as I read the scriptures.
In Eph 2:7 Paul speaks of "ages to come", so I see
another age(at least) after the millienial age(the age to come), in which the word of the Lord covers the eart as the water covers the sea. I see the lake of fire as an age between the lake of fire and the all in all of God, but we really arent given much detail about anything beyond the GWT, so I am satisfied to co-exist with diverse opinions on it- we see it "thru a glass darkly". :o)
:iagree:
I see the LOF as the death described in 1 Tim 5:6, the widow who seeks after pleasure is dead though she lives. And I think the Romans 2 reference shows that while man "reaps what he sows" God will have an active part in making sure that happens. I believe God will send a "destroyer to destroy" and houses built with fire resistant materials will be fine. Others will experience salvation, yet through that destruction. As Paul said "they shall not escape" the sudden destruction itself but shall be saved.
I think this is partially tru, but in Revelations, it clearly details the second death as coming at the end of the 1000 years, after the second resurrection, and the GWT, so unless one embraces fulfilled theology or sees Revelations as totally metaphorical, I can't see any other way to incorporate all those verses in Mt 25; Rev 14, 19 & 20; Romans 2 in a single consistent paradigm, "an administration suitable to the fulness of times";"each in their own order"; "ages to come", without some measure of afterlife kolassis as a consequence for rejecting Christ, or doing evil during all of ones life, etc.
"You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come".
10.... wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
I see many verses that indicate that many times the evil do not always suffer until they stand before God in the resurrection, along with the literal statements of Jesus concerning kolassis, unless someone believes Jesus made no literal statements(with which I respectfully disagree).
Yes, I agree that they will stand before God, and also be cast away. I think the use of "strong delusion" is to make them believe a lie and be judged, so that their deceivableness comes to its logical end, the destruction of the flesh by Satan so that the spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord.
I believe just how God used Babylon to judge Israel (rather than send a lightening bolt) the core elements of God's final judgement are present in the world already.
Quote from: Seth on March 04, 2015, 08:33:24 PM
Yes, I agree that they will stand before God, and also be cast away. I think the use of "strong delusion" is to make them believe a lie and be judged, so that their deceivableness comes to its logical end, the destruction of the flesh by Satan so that the spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord.
Perhaps, but I think that view ignores a gob of OT and NT scripture.
I don't see how. A gob of scriptures show me that God tends to use the elements of the world to render judgement. God using man's own reaping of what he sows mirrors that perfectly to me and I can see that in how he uses Satan in the coming Day of the Lord.
Where does it say God intends to use the elements of the world to render judgments in the Day of the Lord?
The Bible demonstrates it. How did he judge Israel for idol worship? He expelled them into the hands of Babylon. He used a foreign nationals as a club in his hand. Throughout the Bible he turned Israel over to thier enemies as a way to render judgement.
BTW, I said "I could see how" God would do that in the Day of the Lord, not that the Bible verbatim says that.
All you are saying is that God judges in the earth, which I think EVERYONE agrees with. I have been talking about the ages to come. I would like to know where it says God will only judge by the elements of the world, or shows that to be in anyway exclusive of aionian kolassis or aionian pyr after the GWT.
We can really only see what the scriptures reveal, so if I ask for verses, it is because I am interested in the concept, not to cause dissension. I usually hold these types of discussions with the accompanying scriptures for what I think the word presents. That doesnt mean I am right, or am even sure myself, but if someone is presenting an idea I dont understand or I think leaves out signifigant verses- I ask to see some verses. Thats how I think it ought to be done LOL
Ok, so going back, here is what I said, "I believe just how God used Babylon to judge Israel (rather than send a lightening bolt) the core elements of God's final judgement are present in the world already."
Just wanted to be clear on that. I didn't say that the Bible literally says that. But the reasons I believe that are in reference to the trend that God used to deliver Israel to "the jailers" which in their case was Babylon.Then he used the same technique with Israel's enemies. I see sin itself as the ultimate jailer. Paul talked about being sold into carnality. I believe the outer darkness that they will be cast into is the same as Israel's blindness. Darkness like the prodigal son before he remembered his father. The prodigal son forgot his father.
As for more scriptures about why I believe that, I wrote my reasoning here: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html
It ended up being 2 parts because there was alot to discuss. Beliefs are based on literal statements if scripture but also on trends and clues. It's a belief not an end all be all truth.
The scriptures that I base my reasoning on are in the paper and would be hard to put in a single forum reply because it's a lot to discuss.
Yes, I get that- but I began my contribution to the thread explaining that Hebrews 10:26-31 may be viewed including the scriptures on aionian kolassis, in order to combat an interpretation of eternal torment.
That does not exclude the judgments that come in life that are the harvest of sowing wicked seed- but I do not think those reapings explain the text in Hebrews 10, not for me- and certainly not for most ETrs or EDrs. That's just how I see it. And I do not believe aionian correction should be minimized and definitely not ignored. There are simply too many verses, from Enoch, to Jesus in the gospels, to John in the apocalypse that speak of it.
I think most ETrs recognize these scriptures becausee they are true and real. They just need to see the other side of the coin- the purpose and conclusion and nature of those judgments. So I think that minimizing or denying aionian kolassis is an error.
Really, I do not think that death is sufficient for some. I think the second death will be, as an extension of Adams death following the wicked into the coming age- the wrath to come, which all the prophets and apostles(imo) do bear witness to as well.
Quote from: Seth on March 05, 2015, 12:17:57 AM
As for more scriptures about why I believe that, I wrote my reasoning here: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html
It ended up being 2 parts because there was alot to discuss. Beliefs are based on literal statements if scripture but also on trends and clues. It's a belief not an end all be all truth.
The scriptures that I base my reasoning on are in the paper and would be hard to put in a single forum reply because it's a lot to discuss.
Sure, I understand, it is dense undergrowth to walk through conceptually and scripturally. And I agree with reaping in this life as a form of kolassis(correction) and pyr(purging fire)- I just don't think that is the limit of it.
Did you think I was talking about literal death? That might be the miscommunication. I believe the lake of fire is death in the 1 Tim 5 sense. The widow who seeks after pleasure is dead though she lives. I don't see that as a physical death.
I do not believe that this life IS the final judgement, but that God uses the blindness of this world as an element in the final judgement. I believe the final judgement will look something like what happened in the parable of the prodigal son. That's the outer darkness. I believe resurrection will occur but some will be cast away into that kind of darkness.
In a metaphorical way, that's how I see the warning of Hebrews 10, the fire language looking very much like the language of Isaiah 9 and 30
Really, I do not think that death is sufficient for some. I think the second death will be, as an extension of Adams death following the wicked into the coming age- the wrath to come, which all the prophets and apostles(imo) do bear witness to as well.
Could this be considered a form of purgatory?
If I was to look at purgatory from the view of C. S. Lewis's The Great Divirce- I would say yes, because I think the lake of fire is the bringing of every hidden thing to light, as light is fire to darkness. The answer to chaos(without form and void) is "Let there be light". The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it. Classic Catholic purgatory where you can pray people out of it or make offerings to get them out, I can't see that.
2 Cor 4: 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
So I think that "tormented(corrected) in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels"(Rev 14:12) means that in the presence of all the witnesses of all the ages, the righteousness of Christ crucified will "tear down every stronghold and fortress that exalts itself against the true knoweldge of God" until "every knee has bowed whther in heaven or one earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" which will subject every adversary that remains after this age and the next, including those whose names are not written in the Lamb' book of life.
The wicked are not in the presence of God to be corrected in this life.
"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. (Rev 14)
Noticing that the correction for a wayward saint was to "Take them before the whole assembly".... I think aionian correction will be the same in essence- thats what I believe the lake of fire is, a kind of forced intervention before the whole family of God.
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant(the bold part is the lake of fire imo), and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
I think this applies to Hebrews 12, a picture of heavenly Zion(upon this mountain I will remove the covering(vail KJV) that covers the peoples, Isaiah) and the heavenly assembly, interestingly concluding with not escaping because, "our God is a consuming fire"
Quote from: Seth on March 05, 2015, 12:33:22 AM
Did you think I was talking about literal death? That might be the miscommunication. I believe the lake of fire is death in the 1 Tim 5 sense. The widow who seeks after pleasure is dead though she lives. I don't see that as a physical death.
I do not believe that this life IS the final judgement, but that God uses the blindness of this world as an element in the final judgement. I believe the final judgement will look something like what happened in the parable of the prodigal son. That's the outer darkness. I believe resurrection will occur but some will be cast away into that kind of darkness.
In a metaphorical way, that's how I see the warning of Hebrews 10, the fire language looking very much like the language of Isaiah 9 and 30
No, I thought you were saying that all kolassis
is limited to having been accomplished through reaping in this life, which I disagree with. I think there is also a period of correction after this life for hardened adversaries, hypocrites, etc. represented metaphorically by Gehenna and the lake of fire, and spoken of literally by Jesus as "the wrath to come", "aionian pyr" and "aionian kolassis". So I believe in kolassis/purging fire both this life and the next life for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life..
Quote from: eaglesway on March 05, 2015, 02:53:22 AM
Quote from: Seth on March 05, 2015, 12:33:22 AM
Did you think I was talking about literal death? That might be the miscommunication. I believe the lake of fire is death in the 1 Tim 5 sense. The widow who seeks after pleasure is dead though she lives. I don't see that as a physical death.
I do not believe that this life IS the final judgement, but that God uses the blindness of this world as an element in the final judgement. I believe the final judgement will look something like what happened in the parable of the prodigal son. That's the outer darkness. I believe resurrection will occur but some will be cast away into that kind of darkness.
In a metaphorical way, that's how I see the warning of Hebrews 10, the fire language looking very much like the language of Isaiah 9 and 30
No, I thought you were saying that all kolassis is limited to having been accomplished through reaping in this life, which I disagree with. I think there is a period of correction after this life for hardened adversaries, represented metaphorically by Gehenna and the lake of fire, and spoken of literally by Jesus as "the wrath to come", "aionian pyr" and aionian kolassis".
No I definitely don't think it's all accomplished through reaping in this life. In this life we can "store up" wrath. I believe the elements that God uses for the final judgement are currently in the world such as darkness, blindness,.reaping and.sowing,.Satan being useful in destruction of the flesh. I believe the final judgment will incorporate all these aspects.
Deuteronomy 4 even explains how that God is a consuming fire in that his judgement is to turn over Israel to foreign lands for worshipping idols. There, he says that Egypt is an iron smelting fire. I think that kind of judgement will be used in the LOF for the purpose of inspiring repentance. That's what I believe death (in sin) has to do with the LOF and what rivers of life (the Spirit) have to do with New Jerusalem. Fire for the purpose of creating thirst. Death for the purpose of generating a true honest desire for Life and that through repentance.
Once we talk it out we usually wind up pretty close to understanding each other LOLOL
:laughing7: :friendstu:
Quote from: eaglesway on March 04, 2015, 07:53:23 PM
I agree with your statement about 1 Cor 15. However, I cannot see anything other than the dead, great and small, who are raised at the second resurrestion and judged by the things written in the book, (their consciences as per Romans 2) as those who are cast into the lake of fire. This co-ordinates with matthew 25:41 and Rev 14:10; 19:20 ;20-11-14
"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"(Mt) These are individuals.
Rev 19:11-15 This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
I believe these are the same individual people spoken of in Mt 25(Lord, Lord), and Romans 2
Ro 2:6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek......
14 or when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
It is the secrets of men, not institutions, that are judged at the GWT as I read the scriptures.
In Eph 2:7 Paul speaks of "ages to come", so I see another age(at least) after the millienial age(the age to come), in which the word of the Lord covers the eart as the water covers the sea. I see the lake of fire as an age between the lake of fire and the all in all of God, but we really arent given much detail about anything beyond the GWT, so I am satisfied to co-exist with diverse opinions on it- we see it "thru a glass darkly". :o)
matthew 25:41 ..this would then be LOF at His return? as this portion begins with "when the Son of man comes in His glory with His holy angels.." verse 31. I think of this LOF as part of "he comes in fire and with His angles.." 2 thess 1;7,8 ...a thermonuclear lake
..the "wine of the wrath of God" i believe, is the results which will occur on the planet, (rev 14:10) agelasting
19:20, the (world) beast/body/governing and the false prophet/teaching I believe are institutions of mankind alive (active) on the planet at Jesus' return (agelasting is not mentioned) ..are
two. And are cast into the LOF before judgment day. (world beast and false prophet/great delusion has changed the world, making way for the great falling away, dissolution of family, etc)
"thru a glass darkly" - amen, that's very true! :gsmile:
..basically it's simply, if the ancient spring Holy Days prophesied His first advent,
then (surely?) the ancient Fall ones prophecy His long 2nd advent.. from His return (trumpets) to when He hands over the Kingdom to the Father (tabernacles) - lev 23:24-39 (making judgment day, day of atonement). And the 10 days representing the millenium, thus the 5 days between DOA and Tabernacles, 500 years, age of judgment
p.s. - the false prophet (i believe) began as a man, but now does many modern miracles and wonders, including gave the fire, which was rev 13:13 - will cease to exist..
I think He is talking about the GWT, not the second coming, in Mt 25 41
Just to follow up about what I was saying about the elements of the final judgment and why I talk about that. I see it as a counter-point to the ET view of final judgment according to this supposed literal lake of literal fire that nobody has seen, that supposedly will be seen for the first time by those plummeting to their demise.
I think that sort of mystery contributes to the fear (the wrong type) that ET doctrine spreads, this sort of looming cave-like existence with this kind of metaphysical fire with the capability to torment wicked spiritual beings as though they were physical. And, nobody has seen it before so people write books like "23 Minutes in Hell" to "educate" us as to what the final judgment will be like and look like. I've heard that somehow there will be lots of fire, yet totally dark so you can't see your own hands. Go figure.
Over time, as I have studied, I have come to the conclusion that the "wrath to come," being yet future, is made of the building blocks of things that we can see in this life. For example, in Isaiah 9, it says that "wickedness burns like a fire that consumes the briars and thorns and raises up like a column of smoke." I believe Revelation 14 is incorporating that language in its description of the torment received by those in LOF.
I also see a correlation in Hebrews 6 where it says, "To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."
Dante and Hieronymus Bosch produced works that attempted to fill the gap as to what Hell supposedly looks like because it's still this mystery to them. But, I can see wickedness today how it is like a fire, erosive, damaging, humbling. Based on what I believe about how final judgment will be executed, I can see the elements that will make up that judgment already in play. I don't think we can know how each individual person will be judged, but I think the general idea is that abiding in Christ causes joy and not abiding in Christ causes pain and suffering according to one's own reaping.
Jesus will say "away from me ye who work iniquity." What are the implications of being "away" from Christ? Certainly not physically, because who can hide from God? Jesus fills everything so nobody can be hidden from him. So, I take it to mean, their recompense is to be cast away in the sense of not abiding in him and ALL the negative consequences for that which will follow, which will lead to "trouble and distress" (Romans 2), and eventual repentance.
I think the way ETers view the elements to be used in the final judgment (literal fire, demons with pitchforks, etc) depend on a lot of fantasy and mystery, whereas I believe I can see how it works logically in the future as it does today: you reap what you sow, and if you plant a bad tree, you get bad fruit and it will make you sick. I see that logic today, as well as occurring in the wrath to come.
When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus with my spirit and with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.
Is the lake of fire corrective? or does it just reveal that which is already there.
Does everyone have some aspect of them self that is eternal and the
LOF burns up that which is not eternal?
Is there a part of all men that once the flesh is burned up (their works )
That what is left(spirit) automatically bends his knee and confesses Jesus as Lord .
Is the lake of fire corrective? or does it just reveal that which is already there.
I see it as both. The revelation coming through experience finding out the hard way that sin is our enemy not our friend. I see the destruction of the flesh pertaining to the destruction of the carnal mind with Satan's role being the devouring one and deceiver.
I also see it as both also, in fact, I see it as correcting by exposing what is already there(hidden) to the light(exposed).
Jesus said in Matthew 10:26 "Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
Paul said, in Ephesians 5:13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.
Light is fire to darkness, consuming it, leaving all as light.
John sees Jesus(Rev 1) with fire in His eyes and a two-edged sword coming out of His mouth.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
Romans 2:15 ...their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
I think the lake of fire is light ..."he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" Rev 14:10
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."
The overwhelming light of the presence/face of Christ, the fire of His penetrating eyes, and the sword of the Spirit dividing asunder soul and spirit and making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart will "plumb the depths" and bring every secret to light.
Everything brought to the light becomes light.
I also see it as both also, in fact, I see it as correcting by exposing what is already there(hidden) to the light(exposed).
Interesting :Chinscratch:
I agree. When Jesus says away from me workers of iniquity, he is essentially telling them the truth about themselves, then sending them off.
Seth I want to thank you for your early reply March 3
The article you linked to: "More info: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html" was very useful.
Took me all week to read it but i feel like I've found freedom!
Your gratuitous whipping of christians for their error was tough. Most people I know can't gloss over that as easily as I. They are hugely invested in the current popular paradigm. I'm always searching.
Thank you,
jerry
Believe me, I held back. :laughing7:
I don't actually mean to sound mean, but it's really just passion and a desire to help. I see the eternal torment doctrine as a schoolyard bully. But I am really glad you got something good from it. :HeartThrob: