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QuoteMatthew 13

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The kingdom of heaven is a kingdom on earth and it is a kingdom to be cleansed.

QuoteMatthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

The wheat represents the Christian population of God's kingdom. The tares looks very much like wheat but it is a different and harmful plant. It is not wheat but it looks like wheat. In this parable, the tares were something that was sown, not by God but by his enemy. So the kingdom is populated with wheat and tares. You might say, the wheat are God's people and the tares look like God's people.

There are a few who can tell the difference between wheat and tares.

QuoteMatthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

The servants of the householder can tell the difference between wheat and tares. Do you know of any Churches that identifies any particular group as 'evil'. Not just 'sinners' but a different and evil people? If so, then might it just be that this church is actually made up of 'servants of the householder'.

QuoteMatthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

At the end of the age there is to be two different gatherings.

Wheat
Tares

QuoteMatthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Why wait until the harvest to separate the wheat from the tares?

QuoteMatthew 24:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

1.  Pulling up the tares would damage the roots of the wheat.

2. To go through a field of wheat pulling up tares would mean trampling down a lot of wheat.

A Christian knows he is a Christian. Likewise might a 'tare' know he is a 'tare'? And if the tare knows the Bible then 'tares' knows that, at the end of the age, they are to be gathered together and burned. Is there a people living in Christian (wheat) nations that fears being gathered together and burned?

This is what Easton's revised Bible dictionary says about tares / darnel:

Quote"Tares

The bearded darnel, mentioned only in Mt 13:25-30 It is the Lolium temulentum, a species of rye-grass, the seeds of which are a strong soporific poison. It bears the closest resemblance to wheat till the ear appears, and only then the difference is discovered. It grows plentifully in Syria and Palestine."

While the tares look wheat, look like God's chosen people, it is a totally different plant.

When talking about 'the wicked' Jesus said, by their fruit you will know them.

QuoteMatthew 7

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Notice three things from Matthew 7.

False Prophets/Tares

1. Look like sheep but are wolves. Tares look like wheat.
2. You can know them by their fruits. Tares have bad fruit.
3. They are to be cut down and burned. Tares are to be gathered and burned.

The tare's fruit, the seeds, contains a poisonous soporific drug. A drug that induces deep sleep, or causes one to become drowsy and lethargic.

QuoteMatthew 25

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

From the Dictionary

Quote
soporific \sop-uh-RIF-ik; so-puh-\, adjective:
1. Causing sleep; tending to cause sleep.
2. Of, relating to, or characterized by sleepiness or lethargy.

noun:
A medicine, drug, plant, or other agent that has the quality of inducing sleep; a narcotic.

Hamilton's voice droned on, hypnotic, soporific, the gloom beyond the windows like the backdrop of a waking dream.
--T. Coraghessan Boyle, Riven Rock

They were almost an hour behind in their daily schedule, and both women looked tired after a soporific afternoon of three executive meetings.
--Gabriel Garcia Marquez, News of a Kidnapping

Happily, these three lullaby books offer the sort of comforting bedtime soporific that has delivered generations of children, young and older, into deep, safe slumber.
--Lisa Shea, review of The Animals' Lullaby, by Tom Paxton; Time For Bed, by Mem Fox; and I Love You as Much . . ., by Laura Krauss Melmed, New York Times, January 30, 1994

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

We usually think of false prophets to be in churches. But many people do not go to church. Yet we read "they all slumbered and slept". What do we have in our society that affects all of us and is controlled by a small minority in society. Controlled by a people who look like 'wheat'?

Does the television cause people to not only slumber but also to do all kinds of things which one would not normally do, but which a drugged person might do in his drugged madness?

What effect do you see in our society as a result of television, in dress, personal appearance, music, conduct, moral standards? And do the leaders of these tares dwell upon a fear of being gathered together and burnt?   

Tares is not wheat but a totally different plant which is sown by the enemy. It is not a part of God's harvest at all, nor was it sown by God. It will be burned, and there is no chance for it to transform itself to wheat. In short: darnel is not "erring saints", or unconverted humans, but a totally different species (kind).

The darnel does not think it is wheat. It is and knows that it is darnel. It mixes with wheat and it is soporific, and is only fit to be bound and then burned (Matthew 13:30).

The wheat will be gathered to God, but the darnel was not sown by God and has never been his wheat and has never been any part of his potential spiritual harvest. It is from the beginning a different plant, a one doomed to be bound together in bundles at the harvest time, and to be burned, without any way of escape. It is something that came from the enemy.

Jesus explained this parable:

QuoteMatthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." 37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (NKJV)

But all do not have the ear to hear this. All are not able to understand or bear this.

Now, when the darnel comes to fruit it is more easily recognized for even the non-expert. But those who know more about darnel's characteristics, can recognize it even earlier.

Its fruit, the black seeds, contain a narcotic drug causing slumber. Someone said that if darnel grows among oil-bearing plants and if its seeds are pressed together with the oil-giving seeds, the oil can become lethal because the oil carries the darnel's poison in it.

Jesus said there would be darnel. Where do you think it will grow? Among whom? Why, among the wheat of God: among the saints. But while the darnel mixes with the wheat and may appear to be wheat, it is not a part of the spiritual assembly of God in any way at all.

Still, it will be there, among the wheat, all the way to the time of the harvest. Please also note that darnel becomes really poisonous immediately before harvest time, when it comes to fruit. In other words: darnel is most dangerous just before harvest time, and here we are talking about God's harvest which is reaped by the angels.

Please do not allow yourself to become intoxicated by darnel. Please do not allow it to cause you to go to sleep or to slumber. Please do let it drug you to doing insane things.

Look at the fruit of persons to see what they really are. "Fruit" is not figures or statistics but a biblical criteria, such as is found in Galatians 5:22-23 and in several other places of the Bible.

QuotePlease read even Isaiah 8:20: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." The enemy who sowed darnel did his sowing in the darkness of the night.

We read:

QuoteEphesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. 14 For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you." 15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men, but as wise, 16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil. 17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord (NASB; emphasis added)

Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the barren unprofitable deeds of darkness, but, instead of that, set your faces against them; 12 for the things which are done by these people in secret it is disgraceful even to speak of. 13 But everything can be tested by the light and thus be shown in its true colors; for whatever shines of itself is light. 14 For this reason it is said, "Rise, sleeper; rise from among the dead, and Christ will shed light upon you." 15 Therefore be very careful how you live and act. Let it not be as unwise men, but as wise. 16 Buy up your opportunities, for these are evil times. (Weymouth NT; emphasis added.)

Much said about sleeping. The darnel causes drowsiness, sleep, even lethal drowsiness, and: here we are talking about things on the spiritual level. (There is more on Paul's letter to the Ephesians in the essay.)

We must be aware of the fact that there are many deceivers, who are not a part of the wheat of God but of a totally different kind, directly from the enemy, but still look-a-likes which mix with God's people.  

The wheat of God, the true saints, must be a light. They must kindle up the fire of God in them (1. Thessalonians 5:19, 1. Timothy 4:14, 2. Timothy 1:6) and not let their opportunity as the called ones of God go by. God has allowed the very enemy, the enemy of God, to infiltrate mankind, even his spiritual assembly.

Just as physical darnel plants are many in a field, so are spiritual darnel plants many among what God sowed. God allows this to happen, perhaps in order to test his saints, or for some other purpose. But he has also many times and in different ways, and repeatedly, warned us about deceivers, about darnel. God tells his saints what to do: be close to God, study the Bible, blow up the fire of God (the Holy Spirit) so that it will be effective in one's life, and, "buy up the opportunity", as was quoted above. That is: one must use the opportunity which one has been given by God.

Romans 13:12, Ephesians 5:11, 1. Thessalonians 5:1-10, 1. Thessalonians 5:19, 1. Timothy 4:14, 2. Timothy 1:6.

A note: in this document it is taken "for granted" that the commentaries which are referred are correct in their identification of the tares/darnel/zizania as Lolium temulentum which is a wheat-resembling plant with black seeds which contain a soporific drug. (Some say that the seeds in themselves are not soporific but the fungus which comes with them, but that nevertheless means that those seeds are poisonous.) But even if the identification of the exact plant would be incorrect here, that does not change Jesus' warning message to us in the parable concerning darnel in Matthew 13.

Understanding the matter with the darnel plants, that they are a special kind, a separate kindred among us humans, helps one to understand some other things in the Bible also. Like this passage in Matthew which might seem to be logically incorrect:

Matthew 24:34 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation [Greek, genea] will by no means pass away till all these things take place. (NKJV; comment added)

We of course know that the people who lived during Jesus' days died, without seeing the things Jesus foretold. Some have tried to explain that obvious problem by saying that Jesus referred to some (single) "future" generation which would not pass away until, et cetera. But that is not a plausible explanation, for Jesus spoke about a genea which existed (lived) when Jesus lived as a mortal man here on earth.

The explanation is simple. The word for "generation" in that passage is genea. That word could actually mean many kinds of things, among those are "a special kindred", "a certain kind of persons" and "a group of persons".

In Matthew 24, Jesus did refer to a special kindred (genea) which lived among the Jews. In that chapter, Jesus describes how deceivers and workers of evil would be in the end times. Even while we cannot be sure, those deceivers might be a part of the darnel.

The kindred, genea, which Jesus warned about will live among men until the things mentioned in Matthew 24 have all happened. But after that the Reign of Heaven will come to effect even here on earth. At that time, Satan and other unrepentant evil spirits will be bound (bundled up) and will receive their judgment (destruction by fire). They will not be allowed to do their work of evil among humans any more. At that time, the kindred (genea) which Jesus spoke about will perish from among men.

Matthew 13:39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. (NKJV)

The Bible has similar passages where the kindred which Jesus warned about is referred to. Here is one example:

Luke 11:50 "that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation [genea], 51 "from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation. (NKJV; comment added)

Obviously the blood of men of earlier generations cannot be required at the hand of the generation of men who lived much later, when Jesus was here on earth. That would be a great injustice. But, the blood of Abel and others will be required of a special kindred (genea) which is guilty of all that blood throughout the centuries.

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation [genea] of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (NKJV; comment added)

It was not that they were just children of vipers (snakes). No: They were a kindred of snakes. The offspring of vipers is of course nothing else but vipers. And theirs, in turn. Those snakes will co-exist with mankind until Jesus' return, but no longer than that.

Jesus used that strong word snake, for he knew what and who the ones he was talking to were. Jesus used similar descriptions of them quite often. You probably know where the serpent was first mentioned in the Bible and who that serpents was/is; you can read more about that snake in the essays and .

The Song of Moses

Deuteronomy 32:24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

http://www.moseshand.com/studies/tares.htm (http://www.moseshand.com/studies/tares.htm)

That was a good article, Peacetroll.  You dig up some interesting things.  The weapon of the enemy is lies.  It is a spiritual war.  Therefore, it is important for God's saints to look for the lie in everything that is presented to them.  If you see a lie, you will be able to identify the plant by its fruit.

You've given one interesting way to read a parable which can be turned over in your hand like a diamond.

Occult means 'hidden.'  In the case of God's enemies what is hidden by them is knowledge.  This is real knowledge about how the world works, scientific knowledge, the agendas of people and groups attempting to influence others, propaganda, false history, false news, false religions--any input which we receive from the world.  This is the bread and butter of occultists--controlling what ideas enter your mind in order to control you.  This is the battle in the heavenlies.

We can go back into the beginnings of mystery Babylon and see how this might have worked in the time of the dawn of modern man.  What if you were able to predict a solar or lunar eclipse?  Instead of sharing that knowledge, you might hoard it for your own ends.   You could then tell the tribe that your god was about to devour the sun and next he would devour the earth if certain things were not done.  To stop it, the tribe would have to give the priests whatever they asked for in terms of possessions and power.  Among the oldest occult symbols is the serpent in a circle--the serpent devouring its tail--signifying the eclipse.  Among the oldest occult structures are sites like stonehenge which predict the eclipses with a very accurate lunar calendar.

The masses might at first ignore you, but when your prediction turned out to be accurate--can you imagine?  You gather them all together for the night of the lunar (or solar) eclipse and then show them in three dimensions that your god is real.  He has told you he is going to devour the moon.  And, he has told you what the people must do to prevent him from devouring the earth.

Hidden knowledge.  It's a con game.  Three cups and a pea.  But to those who don't know the game, who don't have the knowledge, who can't see the lie--it's magic, it's power, it illustrates the godlike qualities of a small group of people who know how to harness that power through their god, who keep it secret,  and who,  therefore, must be worshipped and obeyed.   Those who participate with  them in the con become the tares, the seed planted by the enemy.  Those who are clueless (forgive them for they know not what they do) are put to sleep by a powerful poison, thus unwittingly co-operating as they did in the death of Jesus.

Man has become god.  It's the oldest game in town.  It's a game based on occult (hidden) knowledge which satan promised Eve in the garden--telling her she could become like God.  It's not the knowledge that is bad--it is the hidden (occult) use of it to control and manipulate people.  Those who buy into the lie, gain the whole world but lose their soul.  Like Judas, they sell out their brothers (the human race) for a few pieces of silver. 



Matthew 4:9
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

willieH: Hi PT...  :grin:

How sad your message of EXCLUSIVE Salvation continues to be dusty... and how INFINTELY LESS than GOOD NEWS, it remains...  :sigh:

Guess you must feel FORTUNATE, not having been chosen to be a "darnel/tare" eh?   That IS what you assume, is it not?  :Chinscratch:

Your continuing agenda as noted in this post, is just more veiled and carnal nonsense... and only serves to set yourself (and others with like beliefs) as elite, while demoting others to FIREY destruction with NO reason for either... :rolleye:  A message of FEAR and ILLOGIC, certainly NOT ...GOOD... NOR containing MERCY, LOVE and COMPASSION filled POWER... 

Rather it is SELECTIVE for NO REASON, it is TYRANICAL for NO REASON, and portrays dear Father YHVH as an ILLOGICAL and POWER CRAZED maniac, absent of ALL qualities He maintains to have IN HIS WORD... MERCY, LOVE, COMPASSION, TENDERNESS... while bringing DESTRUCTION to things He (being ALMIGHTY), could easily redeem as ALMIGHTY GOD...

Tell us dusty, ...why were YOU created and chosen to be a "WHEAT" and not a "TARE"?   :dontknow:   (that is IF indeed you ARE a "WHEAT"  :laughhand: - don't worry dusty, unlike yourself which conveniently PARTIALLY limits IMPARTIAL Salvation to YOURSELF and effectively attempts to remove its possibility from others, ...I believe you are STILL saved bro...  :nod: )

Scripture states that:  NO ...MAN... CAN... come unless DRAGGED to CHRIST BY the FATHER YHVH!  (John 6:44 & 65)

On WHAT BASIS, should ALMIGHTY GOD invest something IN YOU (just a lump of dirt), that He (who claims to be IMPARTIAL = Acts 10:34 / Job 34:19 / Rom 2:11 / Gal 2:6 / Eph 6:9) ...shall NOT invest in the VAST MAJORITY of others (also, lumps of dirt)?  :thumbdown:

WHY did GOD send out the Disciples to bring the GOOD NEWS to the WORLD Peacetroll?  And in that mission, INSTRUCT them that this GOOD NEWS was to be taught to EVERY CREATURE?  :dontknow:  (Mk 16:15)

If that GOOD NEWS was to be TAUGHT to EVERY CREATURE (and this IS SO, otherwise, the SCRIPTURE bears falsehood), but this message is NOT intended for EVERY CREATURE, ...then all it amounts to in the VAST MAJORITY of CASES, ...is an IMMATURE - TAUNT, and NOT, ...GOOD news... and is thereby DEFINITELY found to be PARTIAL...

Your opening post just amounts to more "RESPECT of PERSON" propaganda AGAINST our beautiful, LOGICAL, CARING and IMPARTIAL Father...  Who LOVES His CREATION... and is about RECONCILING it from the experience and consequences of EVIL...

There is no sense re-hashing line by line, this "wheat and tare" issue with you... as your observation of SPIRITUAL things continues to remain in the NATURAL arena... and there is no indication that it shall be otherwise...

FYI those who may find any "credibility" in this post of dusty's:

I would be happy to bring an REVEALED answer to these VEILED views in PM...

:wink2:  Peace... :Peace2:

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on April 29, 2008, 10:01:18 PM
That was a good article, Peacetroll.  You dig up some interesting things.  The weapon of the enemy is lies.  It is a spiritual war.  Therefore, it is important for God's saints to look for the lie in everything that is presented to them.  If you see a lie, you will be able to identify the plant by its fruit.

In the NATURAL, a plant cannot bear fruit that it was not CREATED to bear...  an apple tree cannot bear oranges... HOWEVER...

MEN CREATED of a LUMP (portion of dirt - singular) ...are EACH, vessels which are capable of and DO, bear BOTH - EVIL FRUIT (fitted to destruction/natural) ...AND... GOOD FRUIT (prepared/fitted unto GLORY/spiritual)...  As noted by PAUL (Rom 9:21-22) 

Things that are FITTED or PREPARED, are noted to have and contain, the PRIOR intention of their CREATOR...

For EXAMPLE:  When one goes to the store and buy a shirt... the shirts available for purchase have been CREATED or MADE (fitted/prepared) to FIT a person of a given stature... PRIOR to the purchase, the person considering the purchase, takes his/her particular STATURE in mind, that the shirt purchased might FIT that person when it is tried on to wear.  :dontknow:

ALL SINNERS by the power of GOD, are (created) able to bear GOOD FRUIT... yet REMAIN SINNERS able to bear BAD FRUIT, ...and shall continue to deal with that problem (BAD FRUIT)... as the Apostle JOHN noted: (1 John 1:8)

Those who YIELD more to the SPIRIT, shall bear more GOOD FRUIT... but ALL shall bear both... and NONE are exempt from needing SALVATION, from that process in which ALL are (impartially) involved...

ALL finding themselves as vessels which were created by, through, and for GOD... without their "choice" or "desire" considered in that creation...

ALL ...ARE... Sinners because GOD says we are... and JESUS tasted DEATH for ALL (Heb 2:9)...

DEATH is a state which shall (upon the "DEATH" of TIME - the LAST DAY) be ELIMINATED upon the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST ...IN... the ENTIRE Creation (Rev 21:1-4)... once DEATH is ELIMINATED, ...ALL found within that state of DEATH, are thereby rendered ALIVE... which is the state in which they entered...

peace...  :happygrin:

Yo PT

im a lttle Rusty bro...been away a while :laughing7:

ONE lump to be remoulded....NOT two different individuals...ALL HIS WORK.... which run parallel with this for mine...

THIS SPEAKS OF INDIVIDUALS ( WHICH IS WAS AND WILL BE) when the passing of Heaven and Earth( the OLD Covenant) comes about for EACH in HIS DRAGGING Time....

Lets Not forget who Christ spoke to....Those who were under the OC....There was a NEW Testator in their misdt ..but for many they didnt SEE...



Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


Mat 24:36 ¶ But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Mat 24:38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,


Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Mat 24:40  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Mat 24:41  Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Mat 24:42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


Mat 24:43  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


Mat 24:44  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Be sure to Pm Willie H...he may well have some more to say.. :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy

Hi willie--

I think you are referring to the wheat and the tares being a parable about good and evil in each one of us, or carnal and spiritual,  and I have no problem with looking at it that way--the wheat saved in the barn, the tares burned up.

But, in the case of the Pharisees, you have to wonder what will be saved--a new metaphor here--because the ax is at the root of the tree.  If the ax chops the tree down, only the root will be saved.

Isaiah 1:9
Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

A remnant is only a small portion of the seed saved to insure the continuation of the plant.  Otherwise, it would disappear forever like Sodom and Gomarrah (which have never been rebuilt).


Romans 9 is interesting in that it talks about two different vessels--not a mixture within one vessel.




20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? --Romans 9



If we just stopped there, (which I'm sure you won't), we see there are two vessels--one a vessel of wrath and one a vessel of mercy--both created that way by God--one fitted for destruction and one fitted for glory.

There is an interesting lesson here, however you see it.  That word 'vessel,' besides meaning the obvious, also means 'a wife as contributing to the usefulness of her husband.'  And, now we see the many ways that God has talked about his people as his 'wife,' as his 'bride'--calling one wife a harlot, a prostitute, even divorcing her.  He talks to us in ways we can understand, and everyone can understand the effect of a cheating wife--a vessel fitted for destruction-- on her husband.

Are these vessels destroyed?  Or are they created this way to bring destruction on others?  They might tell you the latter, as they call themselves 'anarchists,' 'destroyer,' 'antichrist'--taking a crude and unjustified pride in their role.

So many metaphors, so little time.

But we are told to not follow after righteousness, but after Christ.



30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. --Romans 9

NOT disagreeing, but a scripture came to mind and I'd like to ask where you all think it fits in here wrt to good and evil being in us all (which I believe it does, but at this moment can't reconcile this scripture with that POV)  Matthew 7:17,18  "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

 Jabcat, you gave an excellent scripture.  Just as a good tree can not bring forth bad fruit, nor a bad tree bring forth good fruit,  wheat can not produce poison bread, nor can darnel produce healthy bread, the parables are speaking of the same thing.


Willie, how do you see Jesus Christ for giving these parables?   As a bigot and liar (such were the Pharisee's accusations against Christ for these very statements)?  

Did Jesus not say that there was wheat and there were tares? Did Jesus say that the Darnel or tares were two halves of one person?  Or did he give a different exlpanation?
It is easy enough to verify;

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The wicked one was ostensibly the planter of the tares, was he not?  The tares are the 'children' or people of the wicked one, I seem to find Jesus' explanation satisfactory.

Now, did Jesus say what their fate was of the tares ('children' or people of the wicked one)????

Matthew  13:
39The enemy that sowed them (the 'children' or people) is the devil (the wicked one); the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

It is quite clear that the 'children' or people of the wicked one were planted on earth at the time the 'wheat' were planted.  It is also fairly clear their final outcome is to be destroyed (burned, gone...outa here).

The darnel or tares are from the wicked one (Satan), therefore they are not of the farmer who planted the wheat (God), Jesus indicated this fact many times;

John 8:46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

In other words the tares are not of God or...the farmer who planted the wheat!

John explained the wheat and the tares in his own way.

1 John 4:5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth (wheat or children of God), and the spirit of error. (tares or children of Satan)

I'm glad to see you see Molly, it is such a joy to see your progress concerning the word and truth of Christ Jesus.  Bravo and HURRAY!  Peace be with you always in Christ Jesus.

Peacetroll.

PT... I'm trying to understand what you are saying here.


Are you saying that there are human beings here on earth that are children of the devil and that these human beings will be destroyed? If you're not saying that... then can you clarify?
thanks.

Still wondering about that verse.  However, I certainly believe there are wheats and tares, light and darkness, good and evil, saved and unsaved.  My POV is, that all exists now, but that God will sift it out on the threshing floor come harvest time.  The Good News; I don't believe it ends there, thus my belief in UR.  God works in ages and dispensations, and what He set in motion, He will resolve, and the "end of the Lord is mercy".  

Doing a little reading earlier and came upon this from the CLT in Romans 9, and it blessed me:

I shall be calling those who are not My people "My people, " And she "who is not "beloved", "Beloved,"  "And it shall be, in the place where it was declared to them, "not My people are you,", There "they shall be called sons of the living God."  Now Isaiah is crying over Israel, If the number of the sons of Israel should be as the sand of the sea, the residue shall be saved, for a conclusive and concise accounting the Lord will be doing on the earth."   Rejoice!

Hi Taffy.  I know it's a little tricky, but to me this does address UR.  I think PT believes in annihilation (if I'm wrong PT, sorry, no ill intent) and others, including me, are bringing out UR....I would agree it needs to be kept on target with UR.  My  :2c:, and "way to go" for watching so closely  :thumbsup:.

Quote from: jabcat on April 30, 2008, 02:36:47 AM
Hi Taffy.  I know it's a little tricky, but to me this does address UR.  I think PT believes in annihilation (if I'm wrong PT, sorry, no ill intent) and others, including me, are bringing out UR....I would agree it needs to be kept on target with UR.  My  :2c:, and "way to go" for watching so closely  :thumbsup:.

Thanks for input Jab ...ive reopened the thread. :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy

One of the most beautiful things about our Lord Jesus was how he went to the most disenfranchised members of society and spent his ministry among them-- healing the sick, saving prostitutes, feeding the poor.  What message did his actions convey? Every human life is precious to God.

This is a message that will not be found in any other major religion in such a pure form.

It used to be the message of the great Christian countries of the world, overtly at least.

6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.--1John 4

We know it because we have seen it, because we have seen Him.

Totalitarian--fascist and communist--regimes, whether in religion or in politics, do not consider the preciousness of human life.  Human life is so much cannon fodder to them, a means to an end, and if their end is not being met, human life becomes expendable.

The tares hate our God because he threatens to upset their applecart of total domination and control.  They hate him because he gives people the spirit of truth with which to see through their lies.  They hate him because he has come to give life abundantly and they love and worship death.  They hate him because next to his glory, they and their corrupt policies--the ugliness of human desire for control and power-- shrivel up and die themselves.

We have a measuring stick now for 2000 years with which to compare every would be leader, every pastor, every person who would beckon  us to a path; we have a standard of truth with which to compare everything.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Quote from: Molly on April 30, 2008, 05:00:56 PM
The tares hate our God because he threatens to upset their applecart of total domination and control.  They hate him because he gives people the spirit of truth with which to see through their lies.  They hate him because he has come to give life abundantly and they love and worship death.  They hate him because next to his glory, they and their corrupt policies--the ugliness of human desire for control and power-- shrivel up and die themselves.

Hi Molly,
In your own words, who are these tares? To you and how you see it, are they just lost human beings who will one day, also realize the magnificent love of the Father? Or are these tares, (to you) people who will be annihilated? Or are you seeing the "tares" as being something else entirely? Are you seeing the "tares" as being something that is within all of us?

I'm just trying to really get down to the basics of what people are really saying here....
Trying to understand where folks are coming from as they discuss  "wheat" and "tares" in their own words.

thanks,
sparrow

Ecclesiastes 12:13


13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


"the whole duty"
H3634
כּלל
kâlal
kaw-lal'
A primitive root; to complete: - (make) perfect.

well there is a natural man and a spiritual man held in the same body, when i became alive in Christ (( his comming))  for me it seems as if my  tares started to be gather and burned. :mshock:

chuckt

Quote from: Molly on April 30, 2008, 07:43:27 PM
Ecclesiastes 12:13


13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


"the whole duty"
H3634
כּלל
kâlal
kaw-lal'
A primitive root; to complete: - (make) perfect.

Hi Molly,
Is this in response to my question? Or are you replying to another post?

Quote from: chuckt on April 30, 2008, 08:12:43 PM
well there is a natural man and a spiritual man held in the same body, when i became alive in Christ (( his comming))  for me it seems as if my  tares started to be gather and burned. :mshock:

chuckt

Hi Chuck.. :icon_flower:
Thanks, that's exactly what I'm asking.
Just want folks to come out and say what they believe the "tares" are...

I know some feel there are human beings who are tares and will be annihilated, etc.
and others who feel that everyone has tares, etc.

Just trying to UNDERSTAND where people are coming from.

It does NO good to just post a bible verse, if you don't attach along with the bible verse HOW you interpret it! I have no idea what a person is trying to say! I can read the verse and I know MY interpretation, but I have NO CLUE how the other person is seeing it.

Someone could say "FIRE!" and that person's interpretation is that God is going to literally burn people to death. And then someone else could say "Fire!" and their interpretation is that God isn't going to LITERALLY burn someone to death, but His love is going to "burn" away all that isn't "love" in a person, all the darkness...will be "burned" off in a metaphorical sense.

Please, folks...
help a sister understand what you're trying to say..!  :sigh:

peace.

first, are you ""the"" sparrow i see at ""another"" forum> starts with a c and ends with a m :laughing7:

second, for me, i have a hard enough time examining myself so i try and not examine others, it is what it is and i only try and seek to LOVE and edify, this is just me for i struggle much with me old flesh, and its passions, again, just lil old euty speaking :happy3:

im done trying to figure everything out, its not my lot :happygrin:

And if I should have prophecy and should be perceiving all secrets and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so as to transport mountains, yet have no love, I am nothing.


God bless
euty..er um CHUCKT

Quote from: chuckt on April 30, 2008, 08:55:37 PM
first, are you ""the"" sparrow i see at ""another"" forum> starts with a c and ends with a m :laughing7:

second, for me, i have a hard enough time examining myself so i try and not examine others, it is what it is and i only try and seek to LOVE and edify, this is just me for i struggle much with me old flesh, and its passions, again, just lil old euty speaking :happy3:

im done trying to figure everything out, its not my lot :happygrin:

And if I should have prophecy and should be perceiving all secrets and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so as to transport mountains, yet have no love, I am nothing.


God bless
euty..er um CHUCKT

Hey Chuck!  :icon_flower:

Hmmm. There might be another sparrow..
Are you talking about carm? that's the only thing I can think of, I've been to that website a few times I think, so I just went there now to see if they had a message board and sure enough they do. Is there a "sparrow" on there? If so, it's definitely not me.  :happy3:


Anyway, you said you try not to examine others... but on a discussion board where people are discussing, you can't really discuss anything unless you understand what a person is trying to say, know what I mean? I'm just trying to understand what people are trying to say. not trying to examine them really... just trying to DECIPHER their messages. that's all.

:HeartThrob:,
sparrow

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

Quote from: Peacetroll on April 30, 2008, 12:48:30 AM
Willie, how do you see Jesus Christ for giving these parables?   As a bigot and liar (such were the Pharisee's accusations against Christ for these very statements)? 

Did Jesus not say that there was wheat and there were tares? Did Jesus say that the Darnel or tares were two halves of one person?  Or did he give a different exlpanation?
It is easy enough to verify;

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The wicked one was ostensibly the planter of the tares, was he not?  The tares are the 'children' or people of the wicked one, I seem to find Jesus' explanation satisfactory.

The word KOSMOS (#2889 - strongs) Translated WORLD above means creation, in a wide or narrow sense, and/or ITS INHABITANTS...  YOU, are the "field" dusty... I, am the "field"... ALL MEN are the "field" (earth)...

I am a songwriter brother dusty... Have been for over forty years... this is a talent given from above... The songs that I write, are CHILDREN of that TALENT... Offspring of the gift and talent of music, given me from above. (for which I am, btw, immensely thankful!  :mblush:)

We are twofold beings brother...  SPIRIT beings which are found to reside in SINFUL FLESH... and ALL deeds or moments of our lives in that SPIRIT and FLESH combination, are placed upon the ONLY FOUNDATION which exists... CHRIST...

Here is the Scripture upon which this process is indicated: (1 Cor 3:11-15)

As we can CLEARLY SEE, ...ALL of, ALL of us (our total lives), ...is (moment by moment) placed upon (i.e. "building" - vs 12) ...the ONLY FOUNDATION (CHRIST - vs 11)... This foundation is a CONSUMING FIRE... and only that which emerges as OBEDIENCE shall abide that fire... 

The WHEAT (gold, silver, precious stones) in each one, shall ABIDE the FIRE dusty... the TARES (wood, hay, stubble) in each one, shall NOT...

YET... in the process of the ELIMINATION of the TARES... even the ONE which shall find their WORK (lifetime) burned up, shall STILL be found SAVED ...BY the FIRE...  :thumbsup:

The "CHILDREN" of the WICKED one are the DEEDS DONE by and for the NATURAL Man that exists in ALL of us... (wood, hay, stubble - FLAMMABLE) Destined for destruction... (these DISOBEDIENT or SINFUL deeds emerge from OUR desires/will - James 1:14)

The CHILDREN of the KINGDOM are DEEDS DONE in SUBMISSION to the SPIRIT of CHRIST (gold, silver, precious stones - INFLAMMABLE) Destined for GLORY (deeds done by and for, and emerging FROM, the SPIRIT of GOD which come from HEARING, ...HIS WORD)

QuoteNow, did Jesus say what their fate was of the tares ('children' or people of the wicked one)????

You take SPIRITUAL WORDS (written PARABOLICLY) and draw NATURAL CONCLUSIONS... the TARES are not PEOPLE... they are part (dishonorable) of their ESSENCE... as are the WHEAT (honorable). 

QuoteMatthew  13:
39The enemy that sowed them (the 'children' or people) is the devil (the wicked one); the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

It is quite clear that the 'children' or people of the wicked one were planted on earth at the time the 'wheat' were planted.  It is also fairly clear their final outcome is to be destroyed (burned, gone...outa here).

"SATAN" (adversity) does not bear "children or people"... it is the BEHAVIORAL discrepancy which was created BY GOD within MEN, that they might DISOBEY the COMMAND of GOD, and thereby GAIN, the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL which was PART of what GOD  DECLARED from the beginning (Is 46:10-11)

I think your biggest hurdle in understanding here is that you yet percieve "the devil" as a being... It is a PRINCIPALITY or POWER which exists in ALL MEN... that being the "characteristic" or "talent" to DISOBEY the command of GOD...

The HEBREW Word SATAN means ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY... There is no EXTERNAL being which is OMNIPRESENT (has to be in order to affect all men)... which "tempts" us to SIN... SIN emerges from WITHIN MEN... as is CLEARLY NOTED by James - (James 1:14) NOT because some demented being that LURES us into DISOBEDIENCE!

QuoteThe darnel or tares are from the wicked one (Satan), therefore they are not of the farmer who planted the wheat (God), Jesus indicated this fact many times;

John 8:46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

In other words the tares are not of God or...the farmer who planted the wheat!

John explained the wheat and the tares in his own way.

1 John 4:5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth (wheat or children of God), and the spirit of error. (tares or children of Satan)

Again dusty... He that HEARETH... is the key... HEARING the WORD of GOD, produces the CHILDREN of OBEDIENCE...  GOD opens the EARS of those who "HEAR" according to the chronology of His PURPOSE as it is revealed... that many do NOT "HEAR" (or "see") is not of their own will, it is of the WILL of YHVH (Rom 11:25-26 / 32)

The "children" of the WORD of GOD, are offspring (behaviors/decisions, etc) which are produced by OBEDIENCE... due to the WORK of CHRIST within...

The "children" of man's NATURAL "talent" to DISOBEY, are the offspring of the Wicked ONE which is the ADVERSE (satan) NATURAL (DISOBEDIENT) ONE in each of us... in those YET to be CONVERTED!

GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS dusty... Each of us has the same conditions present at our birth (concerning GOOD and EVIL), with GOD's WILL which IS DECLARED as our pathway...  HE is SOVEREIGN and IN CONTROL of ALL THINGS... whether YOU desire to portray His agenda ILLOGICALLY or not...

It is ILLOGICAL to think of a GOD of LOVE who is the CREATOR of ALL THINGS, to have a plan for ANY created THING to find DESTRUCTION (obliteration) as its appointed destiny...  This in itself, is contrary...

GOD is NOT a DESTROYER dusty, ...He is a CREATOR!  ADVERSITY (satan) is the DESTROYER!  And NO PART of YHVH is ADVERSE...

Your view portrays GOD as a DESTROYER... and is thereby confounded and divided by that descrepancy... As you endeavor to name "SATAN" as "The DESTROYER", ...you NAME GOD, the SAME THING!  :mshock:

GOD is a DELIVERER... and ELIMINATION of ADVERSITY is the method of that DELIVERANCE...

EVEN EVIL (as you probably suppose) shall NOT be DESTROYED (obliterated to nothingness)... rather it shall ETERNALLY SERVE to GLORIFY the LOVE of GOD... as it stands INERT FOREVER, FROZEN by the GLORIOUS DELIVERANCE of ALL, ...FROM IT, by... Father YHVH, and His Son JESUS CHRIST!  :bgdance:

(1 Cor 15:26)  PAUL notes the LAST ENEMY to be "destroyed" is DEATH... and HOW is DEATH "destroyed" dusty?  Glad you asked!  BY RESURRECTION me bratha!  For if EVERYTHING that DIED is made ALIVE, then DEATH... IS thereby ...DESTROYED...

The word translated "DESTROYED" in this verse is KATARGEO (#2673 strongs) which means: to be ENTIRELY IDLE, - Abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become of NO EFFECT, fail, loose, bring to NOUGHT, PUT AWAY, vanish AWAY, MAKE VOID...

This portrayal of the "DESTRUCTION" of death, is not some explosion of sorts... it is a NEUTRALIZATION... EVIL which brings SIN which brings DEATH, shall be NEUTRALIZED to the GLORY of GOD and BENEFIT of ...ALL... dusty, not just you... or others who might as do you, ...think themselves as "wheat" while demoting MOST others to "darnel"...  :dontknow:  Making GOD a RESPECTER of PERSONS... PARTIAL to one clump of dirt over another... :rolleye:

peace...  :cloud9:

WillieH

Thanks so much for your post. I has put together in 1 post a lot of the thoughts that I have been having on the origin and fate of humanity.

I had looked on the internet for a while trying to see if anybody had thoughts about the wheat and tares being in each of us rather than the traditional  believer = wheat, unbeliever = tares and couldn't find anything.  To me it wasn't making sense how a tare could turn into a wheat or why some people would be created to be destroyed.

willieH: Hi Meerkat!   :welcome:  to TENTMAKER! :hithere:

Quote from: meerkat on May 01, 2008, 12:06:32 AM
WillieH

Thanks so much for your post. I has put together in 1 post a lot of the thoughts that I have been having on the origin and fate of humanity.

I had looked on the internet for a while trying to see if anybody had thoughts about the wheat and tares being in each of us rather than the traditional  believer = wheat, unbeliever = tares and couldn't find anything.  To me it wasn't making sense how a tare could turn into a wheat or why some people would be created to be destroyed.

You are very welcome meerkat!  GOD reveals His truth and the credit for it is HIS...  :thumbsup:

He is about the redemption of the entire CREATION, not just humanity... for all CREATION is awaiting the REVEALING of the CHILDREN of GOD... and in that REVELATION, shall they find wonderful RENEWAL as well!  (Rom 8:21-22)

peace...  :happygrin:

:

Hello,

This is my first real post here, this subject has interested me for a while. Has anyone considered what barley might represent? It is what unleavened bread is made from and it does not interact with yeast even if you tried to leaven it!

Also, even though barley and wheat are planted at the same time barley matures first and is harvested before wheat.

I thought I would throw this into the mix and see if there was any interest.

Of course I believe there are spiritual implications to this.

In Christ,

RM

Here's a link to Barley Overcomers by Stephen Jones you may be interested in.

http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/barley/chap2.htm (http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/barley/chap2.htm)

Quote from: Peacetroll on April 30, 2008, 12:48:30 AM
Jabcat, you gave an excellent scripture.  Just as a good tree can not bring forth bad fruit, nor a bad tree bring forth good fruit,  wheat can not produce poison bread, nor can darnel produce healthy bread, the parables are speaking of the same thing.

Ok lets try that out Peacetroll:

A good tree <---> wheat (people, children of God) ---> good fruit only
A bad tree <---> tares (people, children of devil) ---> bad fruit only ----> will be burned

Ephesans 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 ut God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

A TARE (according to you) is a PERSON who can be identified by his fruit:

What fruit did these PEOPLE bear?
1. walked according to the course of this world
2. according to the prince of the power of the air
3. according to the SPIRIT that now worketh in the CHILDREN of disobedience
4. in the lusts of the flesh
5. the desires of the flesh and mind
6. and were by NATURE the CHILDREN of wrath

BAD FRUIT.  So IF people are TARES then those people are TARES and they are to be burned.

YET:
"you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
"and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

So you are wrong.

What you fail to recognize is that the SPIRIT or NATURE within a person can be born of God or born of the devil.  The above people walked according to the SPIRIT and NATURE of the CHILDREN of disobedience and CHIDLREN of wrath.

Jesus said "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham...Ye do the deeds of your father".  Now then, were the above doing the deeds of Abraham?  No, they were doing the deeds of the wicked one.  Then who was their father?  The wicked one.

Yet they were saved.  How?  They were BORN AGAIN.  The seed of Satan within them was destroyed, the Seed of God was planted within them.  No tares turning into wheat.

Thank you for that link Shibboleth, I just about fell out of my chair!

I had come to the same conclusion from a totally different direction than how Mr. Jones approaches it but his article is much more in depth and fleshes this out so much better than I would have been able to explain it. This definitely underlines my present understanding.

This is the verse that first opened my eyes to this thought;

2Ki 4:42  And there came a man from Baal-shalisha, and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof. And he said, Give unto the people, that they may eat.

This link shows the harvest seasons in ancient Israel;

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/festivals/harvest.htm

Thanks again,

RM

I notice that PT quotes Mt.13:31-41 but leaves out verses 42-43 which for me anyway, are crucial for understanding these passages.

Mt.13:38 The good seed are the children of the kingdom but the tares are the children of the wicked one. So, as already has been stated, there are two types of seed being planted; one is good seed and one is bad seed. Who these seeds are planted into is unclear at this point, or, how to differentiate them is unclear. [/color]Mt:13:38 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; (Jesus said the fields are ripe and ready for harvest) and the reapers are the angels. This all takes place at the end of the world, which is debatable as to when this takes place, but I won't go into that here.

Mt:13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of the world. Could this be the end of my world? The end of my having my own way and yielding myself, through the holy spirit, to God's way?
Mt.13:41 that offend, aThe son of man shall send forth his angels and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things  and them which do iniquity. This is one person who is being purged of his iniqity. Did you notice that these tares are in the kingdom?

Mt:13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. These people in vs.42 are the same people in 42, but looks what happens to them in vs. 43.
Mt.13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father, Who has ears to hear, let him hear.  When do they become righteous? After they have their mind renewed to the truths of God.Yes, I see all men as a mixture of good and evil. It's just that some evil is more apparent than others. We can't see, idolatry, adultery of the heart, coveting, yet, Jesus certainly called them sinful. We tend to judge men by what we see, while Jesus judges by what can't be seen...the hidden fruit only he can see.

 I'm sorry, but I have to take the words of Jesus Christ over any other private interpetations of what people would prefer the truth of things to be.
Jesus said there were tares. He said they were planted by the Devil. Not my word but His.

Matthew 13:24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. [/color]

He said they would be gathered at the end of the age and destroyed, by the angels and is backed up by Paul.

Matthew 13:39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

 Matthew 13:49
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

2 Thessalonians 1:7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I realize that many of you don't want to believe what is going on here, and can not accept the fact there are people in the world who originated spiritually from a different spirit than the Father in heaven. They get hungry , they bleed, they talk, and they harbor an unending emnity toward God our Father, if indeed God the Light, is your father, and toward you therefore.

Either Jesus Christ is the LIVING WORD OF GOD, or He is a  Liar.

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,  (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Listening to any other voice that opposes what He said is foolishness.


Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Hi PT
Somethings never seem to change ... :icon_flower:
Around and around we go..again. :laughing7:

We will see in the scriptures what we are given to see..both you and I along with others.... :icon_flower:

You see two different types of individuals and portray it so ..while others see both the natural and spiritual with in ONE....

One will be taken and another LEFT..first the Natural Then the spiritual...FOR we are SPIRIT AND SHED THE NATURAL MAN...

anyway old bud...youll see it your way and others theirs :HeartThrob:

Blessings :icon_flower:

Wow!

Hi Peacetroll,

You certainly jumped to a lot of conclusions, so since we are currently at a different understanding I am calling Christ a liar? Heaven forbid! The biggest difference I think we have is that I believe the tares are false doctrines and that you believe the tares are flesh and blood people.

I only know of One Creator, the devil has created no one that I am aware of but he certainly has spread lies, false doctrines and has corrupted many. 

Aren't the false, man made doctrines in the church Satan inspired?

Perhaps your understanding of the use of the word "angels" is too narrowly defined, I am sure you know that "messengers" can also be used as a proper translation as well.

Are you trying to say that the elect/chosen will have no role in the harvesting of the Kingdom?

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I appreciate the feedback but please don't view me as an enemy of Christ. I am seeking a deeper understanding as I am sure you and most others here are doing. If someone claims to have it all figured out my radar goes off like an air raid siren!

No hard feelings here.

RM

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 01, 2008, 05:44:56 PM
I'm sorry, but I have to take the words of Jesus Christ over any other private interpetations of what people would prefer the truth of things to be.

You are not taking the words of Christ.  You are purely assuming  that "children" refers to literal people.  That assumption collides with the Word of God.

Here is what Jesus says:
Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Jesus is telling literal people them how to become children of God.  Jesus is sowing good seed in the hearts of people.  Jesus is not telling tares-people how to become wheat-people.  Jesus is not telling wheat-people how to become wheat-people.  Jesus is sowing wheat in a field.

Luke 8:5  A sower went out to sow his seed.

Is the seed people?  No, it's God's Word.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Can a person be born again?  Yes.  Can a tare turn into wheat?  No.  How is a person born again?  By having seed planted in them and it takes root and grows within them.  That seed is God's Word.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 I don't see any person who is seeking the truth as an enemy of Christ, God decerns where ones heart is from. But if Jesus said there were tares, there are tares. They are the generation Jesus laid the blood of all the righteous, starting with Cain killing Able.
There are still kenites with us to this day. Hords of them as Paul said.

Galatians 4: 28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.  

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

False doctrine is described this way.

Revelation 12:15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.  

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

willieH: Hi PT...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 01, 2008, 05:44:56 PM
I realize that many of you don't want to believe what is going on here, and can not accept the fact there are people in the world who originated spiritually from a different spirit than the Father in heaven. They get hungry , they bleed, they talk, and they harbor an unending emnity toward God our Father, if indeed God the Light, is your father, and toward you therefore.

I observe you to be a bit off base in this statement dusty... stating there is more than ONE CREATOR in the process... as you note SOME have a different SPIRITUAL ORIGIN, than do others...

And furthermore, ...that you have quoted the writings of PAUL, essentially means that you endorse and accept them, ...and part of those writings of PAUL, contain this verse which CONTRADICTS what you just stated:

(Col 1:16)  For BY HIM [CHRIST] were ...ALL THINGS CREATED... that ARE in HEAVEN and that ARE in EARTH, visible and invisble, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:  ALL [not some] THINGS were CREATED BY HIM, and, ...FOR HIM.

This verse also CONTRADICTS your thinking above:

(Heb 12:9)  Furthermore, we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence, shall we not much rather be in subjection to the FATHER OF SPIRITS and live?

This verse notes GOD to be the [one] FATHER of SPIRITS... ALL SPIRITS dusty... for EVERYTHING (as noted in Col 1:16) has its ORIGIN or SOURCE in YHVH... including those "spirits" which you claim find origin in another source (satan)

Another verse CONTRADICTS your words above (and verifies what I just stated):

(John 1:9) That was the TRUE LIGHT which LIGHTETH ...EVERY MAN, that cometh INTO the WORLD...

In this verse are found these words:

1... LIGHTETH ...lighteth - #5461 strongs - LIGHTETH=PHOTIZO=ILLUMINATE or make to SEE.

2...  EVERY ...every - #3956 strongs =EVERY=PAS=ALL

3...  MAN ...man/human beings/people - #444 strongs - MAN=ANTHROPOS=HUMAN BEING

4...  WORLD  ...#2889 strongs - KOSMOS=WORLD/inhabitants/surrounding creation

ALL are "LIT" by the same TRUE (not false) LIGHT dusty... not by another source which you deem to have this same power - satan. 

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 01, 2008, 05:44:56 PMEither Jesus Christ is the LIVING WORD OF GOD, or He is a  Liar.

:Yeahright:  YOU herein post YOUR OPINION/INTERPRETATION of the LIVING WORD, and then note that ANY disagreement with that OPINION, is calling CHRIST a "LIAR"... please! :rolleye:  Get a clue bro!  :wacko2:

No one here EVER calls CHRIST a liar... only YOU have stated such words... 

In effect what you have stated is that if we DO NOT OBSERVE as YOU OBSERVE, then... we call CHRIST a LIAR... which are YOUR WORDS, ....not HIS...

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 01, 2008, 05:44:56 PMProverbs 30:5
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,  (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Listening to any other voice that opposes what He said is foolishness.


Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

I am certain that all who post here, are quite aware of these verses dusty... and are in COMPLETE AGREEMENT with that which is stated within them...

However, ...YOU determine that YOUR OBSERVATION is correct, and deduce others WRONG, by comparing their observation to YOURS, ...NOT, ...to the WORD.

For others OBSERVE the WORD as well, and find difference with YOUR OBSERVATION, ...NOT with the WORD... THEREFORE:

I have stated this before, and most likely shall have to state it MANY MORE TIMES...  :heat:

NO ONE is "right" and NO ONE is "wrong"... ONE is either REVEALED or VEILED in ANY given area of observance.  :dontknow:

Believe what you will...  :wink1:

Sorrry Willi, you just don't get it. There are tares, and there is wheat, and never the twain shall meet. Paul taught things hard to be understood, as Peter said, and many wrestle with his teachings to their own destruction, taking what they think he said (or others who are men thus prone to falesy or twistings of doctrine), above the words of Christ.  Christ made it abundantly clear who the tares are, children of Satan.  And the field is the earth (not our hearts), it would do some of you good to read the Targum of Palestine, but as is the old saying,..."you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".

Eve is the mother of all, but Adam is not. Cut and dried, why do you think Balaam said one would arise who would destroy the children of Sheth, the whole Adamic human race? He couldn't be of that same race can he?

As I've mentioned several times, Paul has doctrine 'hard to be understood', in other words, very very easy to misinterpret if you're foundation and belief in Christ' words are not first and foremost over all others.

A darnel will never become a wheat, no more then a bad tree can become a good tree, no more then a vessel of destruction can become a vessel of honor.  All things are pre-planned and will follow a path set long before this Universe was brought into creation.

Peacetroll.

P.S the 'barn' is the future Kingdom, no children of Satan will be admitted, period.

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 01, 2008, 11:55:27 PMA darnel will never become a wheat

And yet scripture clearly shows people who are children of disobience, children of wrath, becoming children of God, destroying your entire argument. 

Are these people TARES?

Epheisans 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6  Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Are these people WHEAT bearing the same fruit as TARES or are these TARES becoming WHEAT?  Which PT?

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Pt

What you say does not tie up with scripture though.

Why did Jesus say that "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me." John 12:32

From what I can gather your thinking is that the Kenites as a people are evil and darnel and will be destroyed, they are Satans seed, Adams seed are the wheat and will be saved. That is not what scripture says refer romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.   

Salvation is through Jesus Christ not through Adam. 

QuoteEve is the mother of all, but Adam is not. Cut and dried,

! Cor 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Scriptures says that it was Adam's sin that brought sin into the world, and the wages of sin is death. Eve and Adam were both tempted by Satan (if the "fruit" that Eve "ate" was having sex with Satan then had Cain-  Satans child, does that mean that Adam who also "ate" of the "fruit" mean that he had sex with Satan as well?)  I think that Satan tempted Adam and Eve with some sort of experience but I don't think that
Satan had sex with Eve. We all inherited Adam's sin. We are all Adam's children, flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God, you must be born of the Spirit.

1Cr 15:47      The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.   


   1Cr 15:48      As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.   


   1Cr 15:49      And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


1Cr 15:50   ¶   Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

From what I can gather from that is all that relates to the flesh is corrupt and is tares and will be destoyed that is what is of Satan   - what is born of the Spirit will be saved it is wheat.

If you sow to the flesh you will reap destruction, if you sow to the Spirit you will reap life.  The Spirit is life, the flesh is death.

Cain and Abel are a type for  -  Adam the first (physical - death)  Christ the second (spiritual - life) 

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 01, 2008, 11:55:27 PM
why do you think Balaam said one would arise who would destroy the children of Sheth, the whole Adamic human race? He couldn't be of that same race can he?

.....snip.....

Peacetroll.

P.S the 'barn' is the future Kingdom, no children of Satan will be admitted, period.

I think the one that arises is Christ (quickened in the Spirit)  and would destroy the children of Sheth, the whole Adamic race (death of the flesh)  flesh does not inherit the kingdom of God

The barn is the future kingdom and you are right any fleshly desires, nature will not be admitted, only the spiritual will survive.

.


The following are (2) studies from different sites that may shed some additional light:

THAT OLD SERPENT CALLED THE DEVIL AND SATAN
by Barry.c.Hodson
http://www.bibletruthrestored.org/
http://www.bibletruthrestored.org/Theses/Devil_Thesis_-_Revised.pdf

It is a very large study and take awhile to load....be patient.

I also have most of it saved at my site:
http://p199.ezboard.com/fjesusthelightoftheworldfrm38.showMessage?topicID=62.topic

============================================


The Traducer:
http://www.godfire.net/Traducer.html
The Pathfinder
Elwin & Margit Roach


.

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

Salvation is throught Jesus Christ, it is extended to all men of Adamic origin, who are decended from that breath of life given Adam by God in the beginning.. The children of Adam are born into this world and pass through the valley of the shadow of death, for who is the god of this world? That spirit who made a covenant that has been disannuled by the sacrifice of Christ. We are in the darkness here but we are not of that darkness, even as Christ the Light of the human race shown in that darkness.

As for there being no evil there, in the kingdom of God, it is because all that is there is in Christ, the beginning of the creation of God.

Revelation 3:13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

In the end He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, and man will be changed to be like Him and see Him as He is, and His Spirit will be all and in all, all the adamic race. In Him is no darkness at all, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Colossians 3:10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Ephesians 2:21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
No Tares will be there.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

More of what amounts to as YOUR OPINION below... endeavoring to draw SPIRITUAL conclusions within NATURAL observations...

Sorry dusty... it is YOU which don't "get it"...  :grin:

ALL MEN (human beings are SPIRITS)... AND ...NONE... came forth from a "being" called satan... ALL THINGS find their SOURCE in YHVH...

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 01, 2008, 11:55:27 PM
Sorrry Willi, you just don't get it. There are tares, and there is wheat, and never the twain shall meet. Paul taught things hard to be understood, as Peter said, and many wrestle with his teachings to their own destruction, taking what they think he said (or others who are men thus prone to falesy or twistings of doctrine), above the words of Christ.

No one has "twisted" doctrine, nor put ANYTHING "above" the Words of CHRIST.  I personally RESENT you and your empty judgments... which REFUSE to consider SCRIPTURE... which has been amply set before you.

You, if anyone, refuse to see what is before your eyes...  :thumbdown:

QuoteChrist made it abundantly clear who the tares are, children of Satan.  And the field is the earth (not our hearts), it would do some of you good to read the Targum of Palestine, but as is the old saying,..."you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".

:Yeahright:  The "field" is the earth...  :pointlaugh:  SPIRITUAL BEINGS growing right out of the dirt eh?   :LH:

I cannot believe how you attempt to MINGLE the NATURAL with the SPIRITUAL, then expect others to swallow your potions... :rolleye:  You have been doing this for over 3yrs in my observation alone...

First you suggest we not put other words" above CHRIST's... then you point me to NON SCRIPTURAL dialogue... :rolleye:

QuoteEve is the mother of all, but Adam is not. Cut and dried, why do you think Balaam said one would arise who would destroy the children of Sheth, the whole Adamic human race? He couldn't be of that same race can he?

It is the Principality of ADVERSITY... which does this to ALL MEN... we are born with the ability to DISOBEY... beginning with the "mother of all"...

QuoteAs I've mentioned several times, Paul has doctrine 'hard to be understood', in other words, very very easy to misinterpret if you're foundation and belief in Christ' words are not first and foremost over all others.

CHRIST's Words do NOT disagree with PAUL's... therefore I do not have to choose between them... for they are parallel...

QuoteA darnel will never become a wheat, no more then a bad tree can become a good tree, no more then a vessel of destruction can become a vessel of honor.  All things are pre-planned and will follow a path set long before this Universe was brought into creation.

This nonsense has already been refuted in this thread, particularly by Bobf... you just "don't get it"!  ...doya dusty?   :laughing7:

QuoteP.S the 'barn' is the future Kingdom, no children of Satan will be admitted, period.

And YOU are in this EXCLUSIVE CLUB dusty?  WHY?  :dontknow: 

You have yet to note to us all, WHY you are saved and MOST others are not... How arrogant of you...  :thumbdown:

Willi, all Adamic man will be saved, so you are saying most people in the world are not Adamic? Sadly you seem to be right. Why else would God say this of the end.?

Revelation 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Brother PT, but is it the end?  Just a little later it says the Tree of Life is for the healing of the nations, and there will be no more curse.  I personally believe in UR.  However I agree, if not for the bigger picture of UR, then annihilation would seem to have some scriptural support. I just don't think it ends there.  My  :2c:.

 The scriptures you used were speaking of the new world, after the evil is eliminated, when Christ is all and in all.  This happens before that.

Revelation 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [ Cast into outer darkness]

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  

And then what paul said would happen will for this is a judgement of reward.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works
As Paul said;

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts:[ this is the millineum when the tares are exposed because of what spirit or heart they have]
and then shall every man have praise of God.

Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

This is what the above brings about.

Revelation 22
1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.  
6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Peacetroll...
Are you saying that these "tares" are human beings living on earth?
And these tares will be destroyed, as in... annihilation, the whole human being spirit and all will be destroyed?

And if this is what you are saying... how do you know who is a tare?
What if your loved ones are tares? or your neighbors...? or yourself?

This picture of God you seem to always be painting isn't a very loving one.

Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.





12And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.
13And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry. --Genesis 8





15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

--Matt 3

Isaiah 40:5
And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.





2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

--Genesis 1




John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 It is perfectly loving, for didn't the Good Shepherd lay down His life for the sheep[wheat]? Doesn't He give eternal life to all whom He draws to Himself? All men.?

Those people who are the tares are not of God,

John 8:46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.  

They are the enemies of both God and men. Their spot is not our spot and their rock is not our Rock, and they have no part in Him. They can not change who and what they are.  Not my words but His as you know if you are well founded in the scriptures.

Jeremiah 13:22And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare.
23Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.  

All the Adamic race comprises the wheat, the breath of God given to Adam. Jesus will not lose one.

Matthew 18:13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.  

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,  but that all should come to repentance.

But for the tares, planted by the enemy, there is but one end, ordained by God, that they should be eliminated from the field. Destroyed. Then there will be a new world, and one Lord, and His name, Man, one.

I know that you disregard what Christ said about this and base your faith on what you believe Paul taught, then disregard what Paul said of this as it does not jive with that one sentence taken out of context by you, not understanding what constitutes a man in God's eyes.

Paul said this about all men.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

And he also said this;

2 Thessalonians 1:6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 02, 2008, 08:41:45 PMJeremiah 13:22 And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare.  23Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

So the whole house of Israel and Judah are tares?

Jeremiah 13:11 ...so I bound the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah to me, declares the Lord.... But they have not listened.'

Why does God ponder how long these tares will remain unclean?

Jeremiah 13:27 ...Woe to you, O Jerusalem!  How long will you be unclean?

A leopard can not change his spots, but God can change his spots.

PS: Ephesians still has children of God who were formerly bearing the same fruit as tares.  So were those Ephesians wheat bearing tare-fruit or were they tares turning into wheat?  Which is it PT??

PT...

Do you believe these "tares" are human beings?
yes or no.


just yes or no..

willieH: Hi PT...  :happygrin:

More NATURAL observations of SPIRITUAL and SYMBOLIC writings...

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 02, 2008, 06:54:15 PM
Willi, all Adamic man will be saved, so you are saying most people in the world are not Adamic? Sadly you seem to be right. Why else would God say this of the end.?

How and WHERE do you deduce this in my post dusty?  ALL (humanity) are in encased in ADAM... ALL (humanity) are encased in CHRIST...

As is NOTED in the SAME VERSE bro!

The FIRST MAN was ADAM (1 Cor 15:47)...

The SECOND MAN was CHRIST (1 Cor 15:47)... Do you really read the Scriptures my friend?

This quotation below finds you roaming aimlessly in the NATURAL, as you think to percieve its meaning...

QuoteRevelation 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You must observe these verses in the SPIRIT in order to gain understanding dusty...

WHY would GOD process REDEMPTION from ADVERSITY (satan) then allow DECEPTION  (satan) to prevail AGAIN, then bring forth REDEMPTION again?  Please!  This is just simply nonsense...  :megashock:

This whole writing of REVELATION is the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST in ALL THINGS, as HE is the ALPHA and OMEGA of ALL THINGS, ...from EACH THING's beginning to EACH THING's end...

It is not some "final war" which orthodoxy percieves and YOU (within VEIL) BELIEVE... which takes place in the NATURAL, and is supposed as a FUTURE EVENT ...it is a BATTLE which rages from the BEGINNING of you to the END of you... (and which rages and manifests, in ALL others as well)

The "Millenium" is a MANufactured teaching... and brings with it, the DECEPTION you find yourself amidst...

Willi, you are blind and deaf to what I post because you have your own idea of the scriptures and think everything is spiritual, when first there is the earthly then the heavenly. You can not grasp that Eve is the mother of all. Adam is not the father of all'
You simply ignor what you do not understand. You constantly post references to the god of the old testament. What do you call him? YHVH? Who then gave the old testament on the mountain in gross darkness? What say the scriptures?

Galatians 3:19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.  

20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Who do the scriptures say that covenant was with?


Isaiah 28:14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
You may stay on that god, and disregard what Christ, who disannulled that covenant by His death after fullfilling all the laws and statutes perfectly, proving that one a liar and murderer has to say,or ignor it as you will.
If you say you follow Christ, yet cling to that dead covenant and it's mediator who dwells in gross darkness, instead of Christ the Light, that is between you and Him.

The answer as to whether I believe tares are human beings, yes they are totally carnal human beings, they have no inner man, or spirit from God, and they are not man as God
as God attributes a man to be.  If you are a man to God, then when your body dies your spirit goes back to God who gave it.

What say the scriptures?

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Do you think Jesus thought His followers were going to expound the truth to actual dogs and swine??????

These apostels were talking about human beings and describing their state in relation to God.

2 Peter 2:12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;  

13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Jude 1:10But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.  

11Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 02, 2008, 10:43:08 PM
The answer as to whether I believe tares are human beings, yes they are totally carnal human beings, they have no inner man, or spirit from God, and they are not man as God
as God attributes a man to be.  If you are a man to God, then when your body dies your spirit goes back to God who gave it.

PT, thank you for your answer.

Hope you don't mind another question...
If you were to discover that your beliefs were untrue, that there are no human beings who will be destroyed, how would that make you feel? If your belief about the tares being human beings who have no spirit from God and these "tares" will ultimately be destroyed... if God were to someday show you that was false, and that ALL humans are or will eventually be "wheat" and welcomed into God's Kingdom, how would that change your own views of God? Would that make you happy? Sad? dissapointed? relieved? If you can't answer this question, that's fine... I just thought I'd throw it out there. I'm not trying to force you into a corner. I'm only wondering what it would do to your view of God...

 Sparrow, I was a UR believer when no one else I knew of was, for a very long time.  In 2005 I had an awakening and comprehended that I was ignoring the words of Jesus Christ for what I thought Paul had said.
From that time it has been as if floodgates had opened in my understanding of the truth.
Now I understand why we are here, and where we will end up. Why there is so much evil in the world, how it will be eliminated, and what is the true gift of God, knowledge of and faith in Jesus Christ.

PT, I'm curious.  Who is the god you're referring to in the OT?  It sounds like you're not talking about YWHW Elohim, "Sovereign Lord", but I may be mistaken, as maybe you're more so referring to the new covenant?  Asking for clarification, thanks.  James.

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 02, 2008, 10:43:08 PM
Willi, you are blind and deaf to what I post because you have your own idea of the scriptures and think everything is spiritual, when first there is the earthly then the heavenly. You can not grasp that Eve is the mother of all. Adam is not the father of all'

Book, chapter & verse where this is stated PT...  :dontknow:

My perceptions of the Word of God, did not appear yesterday... I have been diligently studying and comparing the Word for 32+yrs.

QuoteYou simply ignor what you do not understand. You constantly post references to the god of the old testament. What do you call him? YHVH?

You assume that any understanding OUTSIDE your own is a MISUNDERSTANDING.  How foolish is this?  I shall find correction by the Holy Spirit of GOD, not by dusty, dustprophet, peacetroll or any other name you ficklely and often propose to represent yourself and your fallacies.

I am willieH, always have been, always will be.  I NEVER change my name, because I follow the ONE who NEVER CHANGES His... Do what you will, and believe what you will!  :dontknow:

Because you THINK that I misunderstand, is the deduction of YOUR OPINION as compared to mine... which in itself is founded upon foolishness and ILLOGIC.

PAUL spoke of you and your present philosophy, dusty:  (2 Cor 10:12)  I do not indicate you to be WRONG, I conclude you to be VEILED...

If you would study a little, you would find that the word "LORD" is translated from the Hebrew word for the name of the ALMIGHTY ...YeHoVaH...  Ask any Rabbi who is far more dedicated to this premise, and far deeper into the HISTORY and TRANSLATION of this word and they shall give you the same representation YHVH... The vowels within the letters YHVH, are ENGLISH letters which have been inserted... in order to facilitate PRONUNCIATION...

The GOD of the OLD TESTAMENT, named YHVH is the Father of which JESUS spoke as His own...

QuoteWho then gave the old testament on the mountain in gross darkness? What say the scriptures?

Name the verse, and you shall recieve an answer... dont make me do your work!  :thumbdown:

QuoteGalatians 3:19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.  

20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

That SEED is planted in ALL MEN... human beings as previously noted by me, in the words KOSMOS and MAN (human beings)... which you continue to conveniently igonore...  :thumbdown:

Do you percieve LAW to be ABOLISHED dusty?  Do you APPROVE of MURDER?  Do you APPROVE of IDOL WORSHIP?  Do you APPROVE of ADULTERY?  Do you APPROVE of THEFT?  COVETING?  Worshiping OTHER GODS?  Get a clue dude... LAW is the basis of RIGHTEOUSNESS... and is NOT DESTROYED, rather is PRACTICED and EXCEEDED BY and in RIGHTEOUSNESS...  JESUS didn't come here to DESTROY anything... He came to REDEEM...

EVIL and its by-products of SIN and DEATH, ...shall EVER serve ETERNALLY to GLORIFY the GOOD, LIFE and LOVE that shall be permeated within HIM in that REALM!

What do you think this whole thing is about man?  Why do you think GOD has had His Children experience EVIL?  For S & G? (shyts & giggles)  :mshock:

This is not a GAME dusty!  :thumbdown:

It is by the comparison of PAIN, suffering, death, darkness, sorrow, ...that the JOY of YHVH is INFINITELY MAGINIFIED!  :boogie: :egyptdance: :reachout: :friendstu:

QuoteWho do the scriptures say that covenant was with?


Isaiah 28:14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

You may stay on that god, and disregard what Christ, who disannulled that covenant by His death after fullfilling all the laws and statutes perfectly, proving that one a liar and murderer has to say,or ignor it as you will.

Please dusty!  :laughhand:  That CHRIST fulfilled the OLD COVENANT, did not DISANULL it!  (disanull=cease to be)

In His own words:  I have not come to DESTROY the law or the prophets. I am NOT COME to DESTROY, but FULFILL (Matt 5:17)

When my dad sent me to mow the lawn and I did as he commanded, I did not DESTROY His command... I FULFILLED it... I did not ABOLISH His will.. I submitted to it... I became the GOOD and BENEFIT which HE intended for the LAWN... along with HIS desire for ME to coincide with OBEDIENCE and RESPECT of Him and his position in my life... resulting in ALL things concerned as better for it...  :happy3:

Get a clue dusty... get a clue... look past your pride... which instructs me to read dialogue OUTSIDE the Scripture... and try peering into those Scriptures, yourself!  Only this time do that "peering" with the EYES in your HEART, not the ones in your HEAD...

CHRIST showed that OLD COVENANT to be TRUE and VALID by His walk upon the Earth... and brought to us the SPIRITUAL ENLARGEMENT which beforehand was WITHHELD... (from the JEWS)

Such as: Not ONLY shalt thou NOT KILL your brother, thou shalt not even be ANGRY with your brother... for if you are not ANGRY with him, you shall surely not EVEN ...Kill him (put him to DEATH)... rather, you shall seek HIM to be BLESSED, find PROSPERITY... and thrive in FULLNESS of LIFE!

Again above, you herein assign me my beliefs... Please... are you so brash and arrogant as to think you should or could note my heart?

I NEVER - EVER -disregard CHRIST or anything He said or did... I follow Him... You determine that your perception IS the Gospel and that WE should follow that which YOU propose...  :laughing7:   The level of your audacity  parallels the pinnacle and zenith of Babyon...

I could not find you more ridiculous and unfounded than you are... and have made you a deep subject of prayer.  That GOD might lift the scales of delusion which presently VEIL your heart.

QuoteIf you say you follow Christ, yet cling to that dead covenant and it's mediator who dwells in gross darkness, instead of Christ the Light, that is between you and Him.

Because I note the name of YHVH who is the ONLY GOD... and ORIGINATOR of the Son, does not negate the NEW COVENANT dusty!  Come on dude!  The NEW CONVENANT is the NEW COVENANT of YHVH... who NEVER CHANGES dusty!  And who happens to be the GOD of JESUS CHRIST...

JESUS CHRIST's ...EVERY WORD and DEED... was that of YHVH!  Or do you ignore the several NEW TESTAMENT notations where HE stated this?  :mshock: (John 5:30-31  / John 14:10 / John 5:19)

QuoteThe answer as to whether I believe tares are human beings, yes they are totally carnal human beings, they have no inner man, or spirit from God, and they are not man as God
as God attributes a man to be.  If you are a man to God, then when your body dies your spirit goes back to God who gave it.

What say the scriptures?

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Do you think Jesus thought His followers were going to expound the truth to actual dogs and swine??????

The UNCONVERTED and UNDRAWN Man, remains CARNAL until CONVERTED and DRAWN... What were YOU dusty, before you came to know JESUS CHRIST?   Were you a "MAN"?  Can't be so according to your deductions, because you were CARNAL... through and through... however... CONVERSION is brought about by DRAWING... and until you were DRAWN, you were a DOG and SWINE... for you would without thought or care, TRAMPLE the "pearls" of those already DRAWN and CONVERTED... as SWINE as it were!  Or DOG, you pick!  :punish:

QuoteThese apostels were talking about human beings and describing their state in relation to God.

One of which was once ...YOU... dusty!  The state of UNBELIEF in which ALL are concluded (Rom 11:32)

Speaking to you is like speaking to the ET crowd, bud... though your perception of annhilation (which I am quite familiar with, as I was an SDA for almost 5yrs)... as I previously noted, makes GOD a DESTROYER, ...makes GOD a RESPECTER of PERSONS, ...makes GOD selectively MERCIFUL to some (for NO REASON) and  UNMERCIFUL to MOST (again for NO REASON)!

And yet, ...you have yet to note to us, WHY ...YOU... are chosen to be a "wheat" above the MASSIVE poor and unfortunate "darnels"... and I will probably NEVER get an answer to that, because YOU shall continue to illogically, CENTER YOURSELF as elite WITHOUT REASON.

Quote2 Peter 2:12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

In your quote, you MISS... that these are ...NATURAL... (not SPIRITUAL) brute beasts... And in the period that YOU were found in this category, ...you conveniently dismiss that period, thinking to be the EXCEPTION... gimme a break home boy!

You speak as a child, with LESS than SPIRITUAL knowledge... You are obviuosly intelligent and studied... but as the PHARISEES which preceeded you... you VAINLY propose YOURSELF as WHEAT, while demoting MOST to FIREWOOD.

Quote13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Gosh dusty... you show you know less and less with each quote you post.  For this is VANITY which is spoken of me bratha... In VAIN do you propose yourself as pure... while noting without CARE... the LIVING, breathing, and SALVATION NEEDING others to the FIRE... knowing NOT the compassion of JESUS CHRIST which said, FATHER FORGIVE THEM for they KNOW NOT what they DO...

You are so easy to confound it is almost pathetic... but I treasure you as the child of YHVH who you so easily DISRESPECT... and so easily DISMISS as the SAVIOR... placing faith in the MAN, and not the GOD behind the MAN... Wallowing in your fleshly and NATURAL perceptions, which gladly EMBRACE that which JESUS taught against...

FORGIVE your enemies... BLESS them that curse you... (Matt 5:44)

But your version of these words results in this:  FORGIVE your enemies, BLESS them which curse you, ...and... THROW them in the FIRE as soon as you get the chance!

WHY would GOD demand we LOVE the tares dusty?  If HE does not LOVE them? :rolleye:  What a HYPOCRITICAL proposition!

QuoteJude 1:10But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 

11Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

ALL men follow this trail to the cross bro... in this is contained the answer... these speak evil of those things which they KNOW NOT!

I hope someday, that the Father shall reveal the detour you have taken, and set your foot upon the GOSPEL of GOD... which is PEACE...

There is NO PEACE in violence dusty, which is the GOSPEL of ANNHILATION that you propose...

willieH: Hi dusty...  :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 03, 2008, 12:01:54 AM
Sparrow, I was a UR believer when no one else I knew of was, for a very long time.  In 2005 I had an awakening and comprehended that I was ignoring the words of Jesus Christ for what I thought Paul had said.
From that time it has been as if floodgates had opened in my understanding of the truth.
Now I understand why we are here, and where we will end up. Why there is so much evil in the world, how it will be eliminated, and what is the true gift of God, knowledge of and faith in Jesus Christ.

Again you fail to note WHY you were chosen as part of "WE"...  :thumbdown:

This reply, essentially did not answer Sparrow at all dusty... You evade quoting her, just like you evade quoting and directly answering me...  :thumbdown:

Try quoting her words and answer directly, instead of witnessing the date upon which came your deception.  :crywipe:

This answer is just more useless banter, from one who has found tickling of his own ears (himself saved), ...and which thereby makes himself special above the MYRIADS of others which GOD created to be saved... demoting their existence to DESTRUCTION. 

And thereby stating JESUS as a failure... being sent to FIND and save THAT which was LOST...

ALL are LOST, but MOST according to you, stay LOST...

It is disgusting and I rebuke you and YOUR DECEPTION, in the name of the SAVIOR of ALL... JESUS CHRIST

Sparrow,

As I've mentioned previously for many years I was a UR'ist without knowing another soul who was.  Long before anyone here, even Gary Himself.

Whatever Jesus ultimately does is perfectly acceptable to me, for I trust the Lord with all my heart, there is no one else to trust.

I am just pointing out the fact that after I realized UR was incorrect; it was like a floodgate was opened in my mind, scripture now fits together much more congruently since I've had my eyes open (no offence intended).   For so long I took Paul's writtings over Jesus' and the other apostles.  It was a feel good state to believe all would enter the 'barn' or the Kingdom, and it also tended to make me more acceptable of evils or wrongs that other and myself would do.

Now this is not the case.  I realize now that we must carry on in faith, belief and trust in Jesus Christ.  I take no ones' word over Christ.  I now realize Paul spoke things in a twisted manner as to decieve those who were not predestinated, not to mention the injected and false scriptures that have been injected into Paul's writtings over the last two millinium by the Catholic Church and in general the 'Synagogue of Satan'.

The water poured out of the mouth of the dragon is false doctrine.   These false doctrines and teachings have been imbeded into not only Pauls, but I'm certain throughout various other portions.  How may one seperate the truth from the 'water' poured from the dragons mouth?  Actually only with the assistance of Christ himself is it possible.

I've tried to determine some of the simple mechanics to seperate the false from the true, and here are a few rules of thumb if you are so willing to test them over time;

1)  Have two scriptural witnesses (two seperate men from God).

2) Never believe anything or anyone's word that contradicts Jesus' teachings.

3) Keep in mind Paul spoke things 'hard to be understood, that the unlearned wrestle with to their own destruction'.  Therefore it is highly advisable to be very well grounded in CHrist, the four gospels and the other prophets prior to reading Pauls, ,keeping in mind the warnings of Peter about Pauls writtings. 

Not to mention the vomit from the dragons mouths that now contaminates the scriptures.

Here is an example, Christ says,

'wide is the road to destruction and many their be that find it, and narrow is the road to salvation (the eternal kingdom of God or the future universe of light and love), and few there be that find it'.

It seems as if I never listened or really heard Christ before he revealed a better understanding to me.  Then I just ignored some things because it was uncomfortable or inconveniant.   I also never realized the true definition of 'man' from the true God's perspective, always taking it at face value to mean mankind in general (all humans), not seeing the truth in that a man to God is actually someone with Christ indwelling (his brothers and sisters), evident by their fruits.   


Thus the reason Jesus said those who do not hear him are not of God (or from God), and we know Christ is not a liar, speaking the truth only and always.  Therefore one must come to grips that Jesus is either right and themselves wrong, or to simply glaze over his writtings without seriously considering the impact of his teachings (If you are not of God, you certainly will not return to him).
Peace in Christ.

 By the way willi, I take it for granted that one reading my answers knows what they have posted. As for being chosen that is up to God. As far as being special, God will save the whole Adamic race. If you are not of Adam you are not of God. Simple eh?

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

What came from God will return to God. Just the way it is.

Job 34:14
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

Isaiah 60
1Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

2For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.  

3And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

The God who spoke to Moses on the mountain out of the thick darkness was NOT Jesus Christ, the express image of the Father who dwells in the light.

1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Now here is another witness that no man has seen God the Father.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Who, then did Moses recieve the commandments ordained of angels from, and see his hinder parts?

Exodus 33: 18And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.  

21And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

This was not God the Father of Jesus Christ!!  This also is the way it is.

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 03, 2008, 01:20:49 AM
By the way willi, I take it for granted that one reading my answers knows what they have posted. As for being chosen that is up to God. As far as being special, God will save the whole Adamic race. If you are not of Adam you are not of God. Simple eh?

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

What came from God will return to God. Just the way it is.

Job 34:14
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

Trying to understand then this verse, obviously Cain came from Adam, so Cain wil return to God and be saved.

Gen 4:1  And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bore Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

1Jn 3:12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.


One verse says cain was of the wicked one,

and one verse says he was the child of Adam.



??? 

 Cain did not come from Adam. What did the lord do to Eve when she was pregnant with Cain?

Genesis 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Then what happened?

Genesis 4
1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.  

2And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

What was said here?  She concieved and bore Cain, the only begotten of the Darkness, the produced Able, the son of Adam.

Adam did not have another child with Eve for nearly three hundred years.  Sooo--, where did Cain get his wife, and where did the men whom he said would kill him come from???
Read the book of Enoch.
The apostles had NO respect for Eve, but she is the MOTHER of all'

Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Can you guess what beguiled means litteraly. :dontknow:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 03, 2008, 04:04:52 AM
Cain did not come from Adam. What did the lord do to Eve when she was pregnant with Cain?

Genesis 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Then what happened?

Genesis 4
1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.  

2And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

What was said here?  She concieved and bore Cain, the only begotten of the Darkness, the produced Able, the son of Adam.

Adam did not have another child with Eve for nearly three hundred years.  Sooo--, where did Cain get his wife, and where did the men whom he said would kill him come from???
Read the book of Enoch.
The apostles had NO respect for Eve, but she is the MOTHER of all'

Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Can you guess what beguiled means litteraly. :dontknow:

so are you saying, that "i will put enmity between thy seed and your seed", means that satan and Eve had intercourse and produced a baby= cain??


and this was very sorrowful for Eve??


Then what does "Adam knew his wife and she conceived and bore cain" mean??

Oh, I think i just got what u are saying.  When Eve said the serpent beguiled me, she meant that they had sex, and she was therefore already pregnant. 

So when God said she would have sorrow in thy conception thou shalt bring forth children; this was referring to the birth of cain. 

Then Adam knew his wife, and she became pregnant with Abel.  so either she had twins, one from each parent, (satan and Eve) or she had Cain first, then later had Abel. 


Is this what u are saying???

so why didn't Cain and his seed get destroyed in the flood?  How did they make it through??

Ok, Peacetroll; I think i understand your beliefs, let me know if i'm close.   

eve and satan had sex and produced cain. 

eve and Adam had sex and produced Abel, who was then killed by Cain, and then Adam and Eve had Seth.  Seth was the Adamic line that led to Christ, the last Adam.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil/satan/serpent, and therefore are destined to be destroyed completely at the second coming of Christ.

Adam and his seed will all be saved, some now; a specially group; and some later through fire, or maybe through a judgment time/millenium?? 

for now, three sets of "beings" are living side by side:  sons of satan, sons of adam who have not been given faith in Christ, and sons of Christ who have been given faith. 

I'm assuming those with faith now, if they stay  faithful to the end; will have a role in bringing in the rest of Adam's seed, and a role in the destruction of satan's seed??? 


am I close

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 03, 2008, 01:20:49 AM
By the way willi, I take it for granted that one reading my answers knows what they have posted. As for being chosen that is up to God. As far as being special, God will save the whole Adamic race. If you are not of Adam you are not of God. Simple eh?

NO... arrogant... to think yourself of the saved... How do you know dusty?  What assurance YOU are of the number of the "selected/chosen"?  Just because you view it and think this view to be true, does NOT assure you of being part of that number!  :thumbdown:

God will save the whole "ADAMIC" race...  BOOK / CHAPTER / VERSE... please.

SIMPLE is that GOD is LOVE (not hate-which is the centerpoint of the VIOLENT and DESTRUCTIVE result you note), and that GOD is a CREATOR (not a MAJORITY DESTROYER as you note), and GOD is a SAVIOR (not a psychotic, selective and UNREASONABLE monster as you note, creating beings with NO CHANCE of existence beyond this realm... giving them LIFE, then taking it permanently FROM them)...

With such a message as you note... how can you call yourself PEACEtroll?  For your message is hardly PEACEABLE... and notes GOD as PARTIAL... bringing creatures into this life (men) which ALL SIN, and saving only the "Adamic" portion (whatever that might be - I'm sure you shall NOT prove what you state)... What a crock!

PROVE that ALL men do not find their origin in ADAM dusty... Name this statement, ...BOOK / CHAPTER / VERSE!

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 03, 2008, 01:20:49 AMGenesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

What came from God will return to God. Just the way it is.

No one is arguing this... GOD is the ALPHA (beginning) and OMEGA (end) of ALL THINGS dusty...

ALL have been given the INVESTMENT of the BREATH of LIFE... which means that GOD is IN ALL... for He BREATHES the breath of LIFE into each...

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 03, 2008, 01:20:49 AMJob 34:14
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

You post nonsense dusty... ALL believers of UR, believe that the breath of life given to us, comes from ALMIGHTY YHVH GOD... (oh yeah, you dont believe in YHVH God... YOUR breath must come from another source)

You have YET to answer my posts... mostly because you have no answers... thinking yourself a scholar, and that YOU have arrived at truth that no one else has... please...

No offense intended dusty,  but your stand is laughable... :laughing7: and pitiful  :pitiful: ...simulataneously...

UNBIBLICAL, without SPIRITUAL understanding, and SELF centered...  sorry for being a bit crass, but the SPIRITUAL SOIL you bring here, in your SELF oriented gab, needs to be noted... that your nonsense is not allowed to go unchecked and that the readers might find your babble, though intelligently noted, to be exposed as tainted, and harmful.

Try answering me dusty, instead of posting Scriptures with which no one disagrees... as part of making your point... :rolleye:

You are correct Lauren.
Satan did not have sex with Eve any more than God the Father had sex with Mary.  He caused a son to be born who was the express image of himself as Jesus is the express image of the Father in the flesh.
The serpent, Leviatrhan had many children with Eve after that, as Adam went three hundred years without touching her over Cain the son of the murderer, the antichrist.   Userping the inheritance of the first born of God was what that was all about. If you know nothing of Leviathan,  Samjezza, he who lets, then this is all jibberish.

Quote from: laren on May 03, 2008, 04:49:41 AM
so why didn't Cain and his seed get destroyed in the flood?  How did they make it through??

Hi peacetroll,

what about this question re: the flood??

Hi Peacetroll,

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 03, 2008, 06:02:55 AM
You are correct Lauren.
Satan did not have sex with Eve any more than God the Father had sex with Mary.  He caused a son to be born who was the express image of himself as Jesus is the express image of the Father in the flesh.
The serpent, Leviatrhan had many children with Eve after that, as Adam went three hundred years without touching her over Cain the son of the murderer, the antichrist.   Userping the inheritance of the first born of God was what that was all about. If you know nothing of Leviathan,  Samjezza, he who lets, then this is all jibberish.

Satan does not have the power to create life. I'm confused to as where you would get the idea that Satan did something like this? How did you come to this conclusion? What scriptures gave you this impression?   Thanks Bro.

Paul

Hi peacetroll,

Samjezza  - is that the fallen angel (Samjaza) from the "Book of Enoch" ?

A few verses came to mind as I was reading through this thread;

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Jn 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Keeping in mind;

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Praise God!

RM

Quote from: riverman on May 03, 2008, 03:51:51 PM
A few verses came to mind as I was reading through this thread;

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Jn 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Keeping in mind;

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Praise God!

RM

the thing is, Peacetroll will agree with all these verses.  He just doesn't see the offspring of satan and eve as being "man" as defined by God. 

so, really imo; his whole thesis is dependent upon satan producing offspring through Eve. 

But how did this offspring get through the other side of the flood? 

and I also want to know if he sees the color of one's skin, as reflecting whether one is the offspring of satan too? 

 The color of ones skin has nothing to do with being a son of Adam. The peoblem is that tares look just like wheat untill the harvest. Why we are told to judge nothing [anyone]before the time. We are told that we may know them by their fruits, but again the tares decieve the vast majority of the world who God is and what is the proper way to live with others.
Look at our world now, success is defined by your ability to gain the upper hand on your brother, and what material possessions you can aquire. Is this Godly? The way that Jesus said we should live? It is do unto others before they do unto you. :sigh:
You are right Lauren, I do agree with those verses, and I do not see the child of Satan, and the children of the watchers as men, and neither does God our Father.
Samjezza is the angelic Chief of the children of pride, Leviathan. All the decendants of those children of pride, the angelic sons of the Darkness, are becoming the majority of the population of the world, as they engage in the destruction of the sons of Seth, the whole Adamic race. As the Darkness took them out of himself to do.
The son of perdition, Cain and a wife,were on the ark with Noah. Seven of the clean, two of the unclean. Noah being the eigth clean person.
The new sons of the watchers replace the ones drowned in the flood and continue the attack on the sons of Seth, even until now. All the sons of the watchers are called children of the Devil, meaning enemy, because they are of the angels of Darkness, which are directly made of him. Created of his substance, not made.
Remember what was said to Baal, Samjezza, when he brought the Assyrians down to Jerusalem?

Isaiah 37:26Hast thou not heard long ago, how I have done it; and of ancient times, that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste defenced cities into ruinous heaps.

27Therefore their inhabitants were of small power, they were dismayed and confounded: they were as the grass of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the housetops, and as corn blasted before it be grown up.

28But I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against me.

29Because thy rage against me, and thy tumult, is come up into mine ears, therefore will I put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.

The Isaiah verses above were concerning the conflict between Satan and Leviathan (Leviathan being the Cheif of Satans Angels or Belzzebub), There is no conflict between the Arch Angels of the Light, this we know because Jesus told us that a house divided can not stand, and the house of LIGHT is not divided, like Satans house is.   What most people think is wrong in that Satan was made by Jesus (or the Light), when in fact Satan was not made, he is in fact the darkness that has always been, that was divided in the beginning from the LIght, he is the God of this world and has his own angels, whom are in conflict with him (for power and authority).

What was said of this in Job?

Job 41:1Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

2Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?

3Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?

4Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

5Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?

6Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?

7Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?

8Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.  

9Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?

10None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?

11Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.  [What did the Devil tell Jesus}

12I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.

13Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?

14Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.

15His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.

16One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.

17They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.

18By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.

19Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.

20Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.

21His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

22In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.

23The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.

24His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.

25When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.

26The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.

27He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.

28The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.

29Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.

30Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.

31He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.

32He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.

33Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.

34He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

Quote from: laren on May 03, 2008, 06:04:10 PM

Quote from: riverman on May 03, 2008, 03:51:51 PM
A few verses came to mind as I was reading through this thread;

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Jn 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Keeping in mind;

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Praise God!

RM

the thing is, Peacetroll will agree with all these verses.  He just doesn't see the offspring of satan and eve as being "man" as defined by God. 

so, really imo; his whole thesis is dependent upon satan producing offspring through Eve. 

But how did this offspring get through the other side of the flood? 

and I also want to know if he sees the color of one's skin, as reflecting whether one is the offspring of satan too? 

Hi Laren,

Thank you for the background information, I can now see that any attempt in reasoning is rather pointless. Our brother PT will have to have a Saul/Damascus experience before it is understood that when God speaks of "all men" He really does mean "all men."

Perhaps PT is being groomed by the Lord to learn of His plan of salvation for all by travelling this road of condemnation and self superiority before God opens His eyes and maybe even uses him to experience this ungodly heresy in preparation (for the next age) to convict and convince others who presently hold (and go to their grave) in this belief when he finally has the scales removed from his eyes.

Saul was transformed into Paul and just maybe this might also be the destiny of of some of those who also delight in condemning their brothers and sisters to death.

The beautiful thing is that it is all in our loving God's very capable hands rather than than in the hands of men.

RM

 I hate to say it, but are you actually reading what I post????
Where do you see me feeling superior, or condemning any one? I am simply telling you the truth, which you can not hear, that God will not remix  Light with Darkness, and that He knows which and what manner of spirit all people are of.
I don't say anything that isn't backed up with two or three scriptural witnesses. I get back answers that have one witness here and there and most times none to back what the argument against what I post is.
  As I said, using Paul's letters as a foundation  for your whole belief is folly.  As Peter said:

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

This was why Paul had so much trouble with the churches he founded as they heard what the other apostles preached. As is evidenced by his own hand,as he defended his stance to members of one of his churches.

2 Timothy 4:15Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

16At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

17Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

Paul did what he did to make it possible for an elect to be taken out of the gentiles.
That elect must solve the enigma given by Paul, through a true grounding in the scriptures, while the unlearned and unstable wrest with it to their own ruin.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

If you are grounded in the scriptures, and hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, you will ask, and the answers will be given. If not you will find you do not have what you think you have.Here are the two witnesses.

Matthew 13:11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.  
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 25:28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.  

30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 04, 2008, 01:31:30 AM
  As I said, using Paul's letters as a foundation  for your whole belief is folly.

That's a strawman you keep raising.  When I came to see that God would save all mankind, it had nothing to do with Paul's letters.

PS.  What does Christ call the "serpant's seed" His servant?

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And why would Christ refer to children of the serpant as "children of the kingdom"?

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

And why does Christ warn his disciples who are "wheat" about being cast into gehenna fire?

Mark 9:43  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

It means what I just posted.  He who has little, even what he had will be taken away.
What you think of as love is license to the ungodly, saying there is no difference with God between those who are of and trust the Light, and those who are of and love to Darkness to Him.

Romans 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Peter 2:17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.  

19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Matthew 24:12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

[ 1 John 3:8 ]
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

[ Romans 3:23 ]
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

All men have sinned so all men must be of the devil [ Children of wrath etc. ] until converted in Christ.

This whole of the darkness [ Satan etc. ] premise is debunked by these two scriptures alone.

My  :2c:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 04, 2008, 06:05:44 AM
It means what I just posted.

What you posted does not explain why God would call unsavable demon spirits "servants" and "children of the kingdom" nor does it explain why Jesus would warn His wheat about being cast into fire reserved for tares.  You also did not answer my prior questions from Ephesians as to why the wheat were baring tare-fruit.

QuoteWhat you think of as love is license to the ungodly, saying there is no difference with God between...

Every person reaps what he sows.

QuoteRomans 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

...and the rest were blinded...I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid...As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes...

Quote2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

So you PT also have born their fruit and shared their nature.

Quote from: Moshood on May 04, 2008, 08:57:27 AM
[ 1 John 3:8 ]
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

This whole of the darkness [ Satan etc. ] premise is debunked by these two scriptures alone.

Excellent Moshood.   I was trying to show the same idea from Ephesians 2:2-5, but these verses are even better.  Good job.

willieH: Hello PT...  :Whistle:

Still waiting for a REPLY to the several posts I have made and YOU continue to evade...   :Whistle:

I guess you better HOPE that YOU are numbered of the "Adamic" race... :rolleye:

You determine that because you were a "URist" before Gary "himself"... that this proves your current belief as accurate?  What kind of nonsense is that?

Andrew Jukes was quite before Gary, as was Origen, does that prove YOUR view to be correct, and they fallible?  Please...  :thumbdown:

That anyone spends 60yrs believing UR and then adopts ET does not negate UR!

MANY believe in God and CHRIST, then become Buddhists... does that mean Buddhism is correct, dusty?

MANY in this world originally become CHRISTIANS, and as time and life trys them, for one reason or another become ATHIEST.  This certainly does not elect their NEW concept as correct!

You base your view upon ILLOGIC and NATURAL observance of SPIRITUAL things, then deduce YOURSELF as one of the FORTUNATE... On what basis?  Are you SAVED by your knowledge?  :wacko2:

Until you answer me and questions posed to you, ...you just continue to show your inadaquacy...  :faint:

On WHAT basis did GOD choose YOU to be saved, dusty? 

For GOD is REASON as well as LOVE... For He instructs us in HIS WORD, to come and REASON with Him... (Is 1:18) 

Your proposals are without REASON... and therefore contrary to GOD's instruction to us TO,  REASON...

For the umpteenth time, give ONE REASON dusty, WHY God would create SOME lumps of dirt to LIVE NOW and afterward - LIVE forever, ...and along with THAT, simultaneously create MOST lumps of dirt to LIVE NOW and then afterward - DIE... forever?

Is DEATH thereby BANISHED?  It certainly IS NOT!  For if ANY created entity REMAINS DEAD, or RE-ENTERS DEATH... then DEATH remains FOR THEM...

He has PURPOSE, and if LOVE is His essence (which IT IS), then REASON from the perspective of LOVE is MANDATORY...

Does REASON call for DESTRUCTION of (most of)THE WORLD, which finds itself to be the object of GOD's LOVE?  C'mon dusty!  :shakepoint:

On the contrary... GOD's WILL, which IS Love... is about REDEEMING the objects of HIS LOVE from that which has rendered them LOST!  GOD made us to be the creatures we are dusty!  NONE of us had part in the parameters of our existence!

NONE chose their race, place of birth, era in which they live, color of hair or eyes, stature, ...NOTHING!  To include the ability to SIN... for ALL have SINNED dusty... so what makes you delude yourself into thinking that YOU are one of a FEW which GOD has PARTIALITY toward, when HE CLAIMS ...NO PARTIALITY?   :mshock: :mshock:

The WORD says:  GOD so LOVED the WORLD (Creation/inhabitants in totality) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should NOT PERISH but have everlasting (aion) life... for He SENT NOT His Son to CONDEMN the WORLD (Creation/inhabitants in totality), but that the WORLD (Creation/inhabitants) through Him might be SAVED... NO separation between your SUPPOSED groups which "appear" to be human... For they too are INHABITANTS of the WORLD, and therefore, OBJECTS of that purposed  SALVATION...

PURPOSE to DESTROY is demented, and AGAINST the LAW which GOD noted to MAN... and is that which indicates SIN... If GOD should do as YOU believe, then He is a SINNER as well... for KILLING is NOT ACCEPTABLE to Him... and He is found to be TRANSGRESSING the very LAW that HE (rightly) imposes upon us!  Can you not SEE your BLINDNESS dusty?  :cool:

Are you so filled with YOURSELF and your SUPPOSED knowledge, that you are unable to see that your own arguements are found fighting against you?  :swordfight:

According to you, GOD's PURPOSE is TWOFOLD,

First, ...to REDEEM (living beings) and,

Secondly, ...to DESTROY (living beings)...

This thinking DEMOTES our HOLY, LOVING and HEAVENLY Father to nothing more than a MASS MURDERER of DIVINE proportion...  in the same vein, and with the SAME AGENDA as HITLER...  :thumbdown:

I say YOU are decieved in your observation... which makes no more sense, and contains no more REASON than does ET. 

And within your deception, you conveniently INCLUDE yourself as SAVED (just as does the ET crowd), ...and promptly without care, condemn to DEATH, the majority of humanity that you are instructed BY CHRIST to BLESS and FORGIVE... (Matt 5:44 / Luke 6:28)

Why would CHRIST ask you to FORGIVE ones for which HE has NO FORGIVENESS?  :mshock:   And if this is so, ...how are we found emulating and/or following Him by FORGIVING THEM?  For if HE has NO FORGIVENESS for them, then to EMULATE Him is to NOT FORGIVE them either...  :dontknow:

NONSENSE is the essence of your teaching dusty... I truly hope and pray one day, you shall recognize that the TRUTH of GOD is NOT FOUND in the "Targum of Palestine" but is found IN HIS WORD... which needs NO ASSISTANCE from any such documents to relay TRUTH to me, ...or... SALVATION.

p E a c E...

Quote from: bobf on May 04, 2008, 09:31:34 AM

Quote from: Moshood on May 04, 2008, 08:57:27 AM
[ 1 John 3:8 ]
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

This whole of the darkness [ Satan etc. ] premise is debunked by these two scriptures alone.

Excellent Moshood.   I was trying to show the same idea from Ephesians 2:2-5, but these verses are even better.  Good job.

I agree with Bob, ...Moshood... good  :2c:

p E a c E...

Just wait until PT discovers the truth about himself and his ancestry!

 You can't see that evil spirits and fallen angels were called servants of the God of the old testament who spoke out of the thick darkness?
Jesus Christ no where in the scriptures called anything evil His servant. You have the same problem that Daniel prophesied of about Israel. The inability to decern which was speaking to them, the Light or the Darkness. They were confused as to who God is.

Daniel 9:6Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7O LORD, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

Paul said this of the problem.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

8O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

Jesus said this.

John 5:38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

As to my paternity, I have no doubt, for I have believed the report, and tell of it even if all who hear it scorn it and scoff.

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 05, 2008, 12:35:55 AM

Jesus Christ no where in the scriptures called anything evil His servant.

PT Why in Matt 16:23 Did Jesus say "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

He was talking to Peter his disciple who was his servant.

The dividing line between works of the devil and the works of God is not a physcial birth of wheat and tares but of the tares (works of the devil) being thinking of things of the flesh and sowing to the flesh, and only being born naturally which is everyone. When somone is born again, that is believing, trusting and following Christ. Being led of the Spirit. That is the wheat that will be gathered and taken to the barn. Flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God. All works of the devil will be burnt (tares) Everything that pertains to the fleshly desires of pride, conceit, jealously, deception, lies, murder, etc, etc.

We are urged in this life to crucify the deeds of the flesh and to live in the Spirit. If this happens and you overcome and there is no hurt of the second death because you have already experienced the second death, the death to sin.

As an aside it used to confuse me if the second death was equated to eternal death as a follow on of physical death (in essence the 2 deaths happening to the same person). Now I realise that as the first resurrection and the second resurrection refer to 2 separate classes of people not the same person, that is, the overcomers and the rest of the dead that are raised later, so the first death and the second death relate to those same 2 separate classes of people. The first death equals first resurrection(are these judged in this life? consistent with death to sin - judgement - life,,,, relating to judgement starts now at the house of God)      then second death, in the Lake of fire leading to the second resurrection after judgement.

ET theory seem to have things backwards where in the second death it goes raised - judged - killed spiritually but tormented eternally. Doesn't this contradict Gen 3:22 and John 6:63 and the whole wages of sin is death Jesus was crucified and raised to defeat death, became a quickening spirit, death is swallowed up in victory.               

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 05, 2008, 12:35:55 AM
Jesus Christ no where in the scriptures called anything evil His servant.

Of course He does, right here in this parable.

Matthew 25:26  His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed.

Peter was not thought of by Jesus as a servant, but as a friend, as are all those who believe Him,  like Abraham.

John 15:15
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

What you quoted about the slothfull servant was part of a parable.

Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

PT

Yes, he was talking to his disciple, his friend.

That does not answer my question.

Why was he calling him Satan? (because Peter's mind was on things of the flesh  - not on the things of God - Spirit)

The way to salvation is through the Spirit and has nothing to do with being physically born a wheat or tare. What is of the flesh leads to destruction.

i think im a tare/darnel, should i give up? yup i must be a darnel for i keep screwing up.

i say i love God but my actions dont follow, i do good i do bad i do good i do bad i. i .i .i.........

how can i have this good and bad fruit?? is this a joke? a trick. why do i feel so defeted? specially now that i realize i must be a tare/darnel :surrender:

Quote from: chuckt on May 05, 2008, 01:01:44 PM
i think im a tare/darnel, should i give up? yup i must be a darnel for i keep screwing up.

i say i love God but my actions dont follow, i do good i do bad i do good i do bad i. i .i .i.........

how can i have this good and bad fruit?? is this a joke? a trick. why do i feel so defeted? specially now that i realize i must be a tare/darnel :surrender:

1Th 1:2  We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

1Th 1:3  Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

1Th 1:4  Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1Th 1:5  For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

1Th 1:9  For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 2:1  For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:


1Th 2:14  For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

1Th 2:15  Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

1Th 2:16  Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 3:14  And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

2Th 3:15  Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

1Jn 5:1  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn 5:2  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

2Cr 11:15  Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works


i think this is what i am, im just gonna give up, im tired. :sigh:

Quote from: chuckt on May 05, 2008, 03:32:43 PM
2Cr 11:15  Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works


i think this is what i am, im just gonna give up, im tired. :sigh:

I don't believe it for a minute Chuckt.   

Not sure if you are trying to make a point, or if you really feel this way; but in the quiet of the night; you know where your heart is. 

Those destined for wrath, imo; have not been given a humble spirit.  They don't see the need for a savior.  They never feel like giving up, because there is no reason to give up, after all; they've got it all together.  They have blinders on, not being able to see their sin. 

1Jn 1:8  If we say we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and refusing to accept the truth.

1Jn 1:9  But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong.
1Jn 1:10  If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.

Mat 9:12  When he heard this, Jesus replied, "Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do."

why do people throw out "" a good tree cant bear bad fruit and a bad tree can bear good fruit""

does that really mean what people say? i do both good and bad so whats up??

i have good works and bad works, i bear good fruit and bad fruit, WHATS UP??

do the ones whom use this verse every do any of these things:

Gal 5:20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



chuckt

Quote from: laren on May 05, 2008, 03:44:58 PM
Those destined for wrath, imo; have not been given a humble spirit.  They don't see the need for a savior.  They never feel like giving up, because there is no reason to give up, after all; they've got it all together.  They have blinders on, not being able to see their sin. 

1Jn 1:8  If we say we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and refusing to accept the truth.

1Jn 1:9  But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong.
1Jn 1:10  If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.

Mat 9:12  When he heard this, Jesus replied, "Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do."

i continue, becuase of ME, see the need for Christ!!  i have posted like this before and some have said its false humility, i dont care, i know that in and of myself nothing good dwells, and my total need for Christ and to be clothed/immersed in him becomes greater and greater.


for real though i am tired and  just still comming to the end of myself!!


GRACE to you you super abundantly laren!!!

chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on May 05, 2008, 03:48:15 PM

Quote from: laren on May 05, 2008, 03:44:58 PM
Those destined for wrath, imo; have not been given a humble spirit.  They don't see the need for a savior.  They never feel like giving up, because there is no reason to give up, after all; they've got it all together.  They have blinders on, not being able to see their sin. 

1Jn 1:8  If we say we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and refusing to accept the truth.

1Jn 1:9  But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong.
1Jn 1:10  If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.

Mat 9:12  When he heard this, Jesus replied, "Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do."

i continue, becuase of ME, see the need for Christ!!  i have posted like this before and some have said its false humility, i dont care, i know that in and of myself nothing good dwells, and my total need for Christ and to be clothed/immersed in him becomes greater and greater.


for real though i am tired and  just still comming to the end of myself!!


GRACE to you you super abundantly laren!!!

chuckt

Eph 3:16 I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will give you mighty inner strength through his Holy Spirit.

Eph 3:17  And I pray that Christ will be more and more at home in your hearts as you trust in him. May your roots go down deep into the soil of God's marvelous love.

Eph 3:18  And may you have the power to understand, as all God's people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love really is.

Eph 3:19  May you experience the love of Christ, though it is so great you will never fully understand it. Then you will be filled with the fullness of life and power that comes from God.


Jas 4:6  But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Quote from: laren on May 05, 2008, 03:51:25 PM

Quote from: chuckt on May 05, 2008, 03:48:15 PM

Quote from: laren on May 05, 2008, 03:44:58 PM
Those destined for wrath, imo; have not been given a humble spirit.  They don't see the need for a savior.  They never feel like giving up, because there is no reason to give up, after all; they've got it all together.  They have blinders on, not being able to see their sin. 

1Jn 1:8  If we say we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and refusing to accept the truth.

1Jn 1:9  But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong.
1Jn 1:10  If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.

Mat 9:12  When he heard this, Jesus replied, "Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do."

i continue, becuase of ME, see the need for Christ!!  i have posted like this before and some have said its false humility, i dont care, i know that in and of myself nothing good dwells, and my total need for Christ and to be clothed/immersed in him becomes greater and greater.


for real though i am tired and  just still comming to the end of myself!!


GRACE to you you super abundantly laren!!!

chuckt

Eph 3:16 I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will give you mighty inner strength through his Holy Spirit.

Eph 3:17  And I pray that Christ will be more and more at home in your hearts as you trust in him. May your roots go down deep into the soil of God's marvelous love.

Eph 3:18  And may you have the power to understand, as all God's people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love really is.

Eph 3:19  May you experience the love of Christ, though it is so great you will never fully understand it. Then you will be filled with the fullness of life and power that comes from God.


Jas 4:6  But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

but im a tare/darnel :girlheart: :boyheart: :bgdance: :dontknow: :cloud9: :icon_flower: :winkgrin:

 
:cloud9: :icon_flower:

   just  confessed   Jesus im NOT worthy of You ...   all I can do now is Praise Him for HIS FAITHFULNESS .. I can boast of nothing  else


Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.  worthy Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

 The key words are " follow after  ME., Jesus Christ, the way, the truth, and the life.   :bigGrin:

PT

Yes, that is right, there has to be belief and following of Christ - do you believe that Gods mercy ends at our physical death?

i dont seem to always follow, the path gets strange and deserted, im all alone in a feild of wheat but i dont feel like wheat, i must be a tare.

im stubborn i want to do good but i find myself doing the very opposite of what i know is right. im tired, im sick of it, i dont wanna be a tare. :sigh:

i take one step forward and two steps back, why am i a tare!!! why cant i be wheat??

willieH: Hi Brother C... :hithere:

Welcome to the "it's hard to understand club" ...bro!   :laughhand:

There are many things which history presents to us as believers, which propose DOUBT and along with that info, ...MANY "BELIVERS" which help to encourage those things...

I personally BELIEVE that GOD is a being which is, for sake of a more eloquent way of stating it, ...GOOD for His Word...and His WORD says that if we SEEK with ALL our Hearts, we WILL FIND... (Jer 29:13-14)

WHAT will we FIND?  ...Him...  Once we FIND Him... from that point, it is HIS CALL as to the depth and capacity of Him that shall be REVEALED to us... for we can only KNOW in PART while we are SINNERS and MORTAL...

Only when we "put on" IMMORTALITY and INCORRUPTION, can the fullness of GOD be REVEALED to us... for only when DEATH is DESTROYED COMPLETELY ...IN US... can LIFE and INCORRUPTION thereby PERMEATE us...

Quote from: chuckt on May 05, 2008, 03:45:22 PM
why do people throw out "" a good tree cant bear bad fruit and a bad tree can bear good fruit""

does that really mean what people say? i do both good and bad so whats up??

i have good works and bad works, i bear good fruit and bad fruit, WHATS UP??

Might I try to explain YOU, to YOU brother Chuck...  :pointlaugh:  For it is the SAME EXPLANATION that explains ME as well, and ALL other human beings that have ever been...

The "GOOD TREE" (wheat) is CHRIST... IN YOU...

The BAD TREE (tare) is YOU ...IN YOU...

This is why WE must DIMINISH (IN US becoming NOTHING) and CHRIST must ...BECOME... more (IN US becoming EVERYTHING)...

Quote from: chuckt on May 05, 2008, 03:45:22 PMdo the ones whom use this verse every do any of these things:

Of course they do, but as is the case with our dear brother dusty... they do not see that there are TWO portions within them,  (same lump)... one is MAN/FLESH/ADAM, bound for DESTRUCTION (death), the other is the SON of GOD/SPIRIT/CHRIST which is bound for GLORY (life)...

And more importantly, YHVH is not PARTIAL (nor UNREASONABLE) to any... which means that He holds Himself as responsible to bring the SAME MANIFESTATION of Himself, to the SAME DEGREE, in ALL...

Quote from: chuckt on May 05, 2008, 03:45:22 PMGal 5:20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The KINGDOM of GOD is NOW!  Those behaviors will find themselves OUTSIDE the Kingdom of GOD, are not IN the Kingdom of God...  The "they which do" is the "they" within each of us...  ONLY CHRIST inherits the Kingdom of GOD, and it is HE which brings ALL to the foot of the Father...

We, just happen to be the fortunate LOVED ONES of CHRIST, which are enjoined by HIS WORK, and thereby BLESSED by the FATHER because of HIM and HIS OVERCOMING ...IN US...  NOT because we "overcame" of ourselves...

The KINGDOM of GOD is LIFE... the KINGDOM of adversity (satan) is DEATH...

DEATH (and its noted behaviors above) shall not have PART (inherit) in the KINGDOM of LIFE (GOD)... NOW (in this life) or EVER (in Eternity)...

JESUS said:  I AM [the WAY, the TRUTH and the] LIFE...

You can take ALL the notations in this statement, INDIVIDUALLY... CHRIST is LIFE...  CHRIST is the WAY... CHRIST is the TRUTH...  :bgdance:

CHRIST is the TRUTH, which is the WAY which leads to LIFE...

WE are the WAY of ERROR which leads to DEATH...

And it is IMPOSSIBLE for US to "bring ourselves" to LIFE... IT is done FOR US, ...by HIM...

peACe

QuoteThe "GOOD TREE" (wheat) is CHRIST... IN YOU...

The BAD TREE (tare) is YOU ...IN YOU...

This is why WE must DIMINISH (IN US becoming NOTHING) and CHRIST must ...BECOME... more (IN US becoming EVERYTHING)...

no no no a good tree cant have bad fruit, and i am bad fruit :mblush:  JK

thanks for the reply W. :bgdance: :boogie: :boydance:


what you say above for me nails it and this is why i feel the way i do.

if i went by what I SEE  instead of WHO HE IS and what HE DOES, no wonder so much torment.

inlove
chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on May 05, 2008, 10:30:36 PM
im stubborn i want to do good but i find myself doing the very opposite of what i know is right. im tired, im sick of it, i dont wanna be a tare. :sigh:

i take one step forward and two steps back, why am i a tare!!! why cant i be wheat??

Isn't your confession above, just a paraphrase of Romans 7 (especially vs 15-25) Chuck?  :dontknow:

PAUL noting himself a "tare"  :dontknow:

Ask any counsellor... or therapist... the very first step to correcting a problem, is to recognize it is present within you...  Which amounts to destroying DENIAL... that there IS a problem...

PAUL then notes the ANSWER to the PROBLEM... that CHRIST ...DELIVERS... us from this, ...we DO NOT, do it ourselves...

DESTRUCTION of DENIAL of the PROBLEM: (Rom 7:24) O wretched man THAT I AM! ...WHO... shall ...DELIVER ME from the body of this DEATH?

ANSWER to the PROBLEM: (Rom 7:25) I thank GOD, ...through JESUS CHRIST our Lord. [the deliverer] ...So THEN with the mind I myself serve the LAW of GOD, but with the FLESH, the LAW of SIN.

He no longer DISMISSES the problem as present, but notes that the PROCESS of the REVEALING of CHRIST in him, shall continue... only NOW, he recognizes the task is SUBMISSION to the INNER MAN, not the outer... and that TASK is accomplished by CHRIST, not himself...

So don't give up dear brother...  :thumbsup:  And KNOW that WE are ALL in this very same battle...  :heat:

peACe

Quoteauthor=willieH link=topic=2591.msg26874#msg26874 date=1210016723]

Quote from: chuckt on May 05, 2008, 10:30:36 PM
im stubborn i want to do good but i find myself doing the very opposite of what i know is right. im tired, im sick of it, i dont wanna be a tare. :sigh:

i take one step forward and two steps back, why am i a tare!!! why cant i be wheat??

Isn't your confession above, just a paraphrase of Romans 7 (especially vs 15-25) Chuck?  :dontknow:

dearest WIllyH.

whos paul? :dontknow: :laughing7:


ok this morning i was really feeling down, and this thread was a good place for me to vent and be sarcastic and show the ""futility"" of the OP.

while i know PT means well and i do like/love him, i really gets me knickers in a twist :myahoo:

if we went by what is seen and what we do wouldnt we all think ourselves tares and become doubting?

i do appreciate your's and larens edifying and it blesses me :boydance:

i also appoligize for my sarcasm and in causing anyone here to think i was ""falling"" or really considering myself a tare :happy3:

i really am tired of ther flesh though, but at the same time how blessed am i for the knowledge of who i really am and who CHRIST really IS..WAS..and WILL BE :boogie: :banana:



i think im gonna hang out here at TM for awhile instead of some of the other forums where so much fighting is going on.

QuoteAnd KNOW that WE are ALL in this very same battle

i do and i want PT to understand this too, and i  thank you again!!!!

christ said about the tares: """leave em alone"" 



peace man
chuckt aka euty

Chuck & Willie,

Thanks both for those posts. I also have those feelings of being a "tare"  and having no hope. And the truth is of ourselves we have no hope - it is only through Christ and the grace of God that there is hope and salvation. You put into words the thoughts that have gone through my mind and so much better than I seem to be able to express.     

Abundant and easily understood are the promises of salvation not limited to men.  All, all the world, all flesh, all things, all that I (God) have made, all creation, every creature, every living thing, enemies . . . all these God assures us He will save.  Does any of this apply to these hypothetical serpents seed, tares, cainites?  Though you may find a way to dispose of certain of these irreversible words of God, the bulk remains, a testimony of God's sure salvation for all that is, not merely mankind:

"The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14)

Jesus is "the Christ, the Savior of the world." (John 4:42)

Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

Jesus "did not come to judge the world but to save the WORLD." (John 12:47)

"Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for EVERYONE." (Heb. 2:9)

"With God NOTHING is impossible." (Luke 1:37)

"At the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10:11)

"God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation." (Col. 1:19, 21, 22)

In Jesus Christ is "the restoration of ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21)

God appointed Jesus "heir of ALL THINGS, and through whom He made the universe." (Heb. 1:2)

"As God gave Jesus authority over ALL FLESH, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave Him." (John 17:2)  The Father "has given ALL THINGS into Jesus' hands." (John 13:3)

Jesus is "able even to subdue ALL THINGS to Himself." (Phil. 3:21)

Jesus came "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:10, 11)

"The Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the WORLD." (John 6:33)

Jesus commanded us to be like Himself and His Father: "Love your enemies, bless those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven." (Matt. 5:44, 45)

"Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." (Rom. 8:20, 21)

"The Father loves the Son and has given ALL THINGS into His hands." (John 3:35)

Jesus "is the image of the invisible God, the first born over ALL CREATION. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." (Co. 1:15, 16)

We are not to "repay evil for evil." (Rom. 12:17

"If anyone's work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14, 15)

"Of Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS, to whom be glory forever. Amen" (Rom. 11:36)

"Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for ALL, and therefore all died." (2 Cor. 5:14)

"When God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the WORLD will learn righteousness." (Isaiah 26:9)

"Mercy shall TRIUMPH OVER (exalt over) judgment." (James 2:13)

"Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more." (Rom. 5:20)

"EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever." (Rev. 5:13)

God's "mercy endures forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)

God's Spirit "will be poured out on ALL FLESH." (Joel 2:28)

"The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and ALL FLESH shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken." (Isaiah 40:5)

God will "open His hand and satisfy the desire of EVERY living thing." (Psalm 145:16)

God is "gracious in ALL His works." (Psalm 145:17)

"The EARTH is the Lord's and ALL its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein." (Psalm 24:1)

God "reveals Himself by those who did not ask for Him: He was found by those who did not seek Him." (Isaiah 65:1)

"The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to ALL, and His tender mercies are over ALL His works. ALL your works shall praise you, 0 Lord." (Psalm 145:8-10)

"0 You Who hear prayer, to you ALL flesh will come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, you will provide atonement for them." (Psalm 65:2-4)

"Through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. ALL the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you." (Psalm 66:3, 4)

"There is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; There is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath." (Isaiah 45:21-23)

Reformer,

I LOVE  those verses!!!! :HeartThrob:

 I am really sorry that you don't realize that Jesus died for the sins of the world meaning every sinner in this present age. Those who are saved in this present age have no threat from the second death, meaning death in the millineum. The point of the millineum is the seperation of the wheat and the tares,  the light from the darkness. The saints are the holy angels.

Malachi 3:17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Revelation 14:3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The millineum is the seperation of the wheat and the tares.

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Isaiah 65:19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of theThe tares do not die at 100 because they are being bundled together for burning.

Revelation 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You can be ignorant of scripture if you want and think the tare is your flesh if you will but you have been told the truth of these things. God is not mocked and the scriptures can not be broken.  The report is hard to be understood, and is a vexation to the whole world. No surprise, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but spiritual wickedness in high places.

[ 1 John 3:8 ]
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

[ Romans 3:23 ]
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)


2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 3:14  And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Psa 35:26  Let them be ashamed and brought to confusion together that rejoice at mine hurt: let them be clothed with shame and dishonor that magnify themselves against me.

Psa 40:14  Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Psa 83:17  Let them be confounded and troubled forever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:

Psa 109:29  Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.

Psa 132:18  His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Eze 7:18  They shall also gird themselves with sackcloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads.

Php 3:19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Psa 83:16  Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.

2Th 3:14  And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

2Th 3:15  Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.  


Rev 3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

Rom 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?

Rom 11:35  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.  

He knows every one of the sheep are born into a world of Darkness, as David said, the valley of the shadow of death, and start out blank and ignorant, and are not able to know what is good. All men fall short of the glory of God, but all who are of God, saint, elect, called, and breath, all Adamic man, are forgiven, and have their time to be harvested, first to last. Christ the first fruits, we who are a part of the wave offering, then the body of man, the breath, in the millinuem.
God will not impute sin to His Spirit and His breath because they are why He came here and died miseably, because there is none good, yet He would not that any of His should perish. He is a just God and a Saviour!

Romans 4:7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

 You came back at me with many quotations from various epistles of Paul. Paul is a parable hard to be understood by the gentiles that there might be an elect of the gentiles.
Why Peter said of the teaching of Paul what he did, and you know what he said.
You had best get a grip on what Jesus said, and on the scriptures of the old testament which speak of Him, and get off the unstable ground you are on taking what you think Paul said over what Jesus Christ said.
It is not the gospel of Paul that will make you wise, free, and give you eternal life, but the gospel of Jesus Christ!

  These Cainites, Serpents Seed Company, Tares, Children of the Devil must be proven to not be some of "the All," not of "all the world," not to have "flesh" or be some of the "all flesh," to not be something of "all things," nothing of "all things (that) were made by [God,] and without Him was nothing made that was made," not anything of "all creation," not one of "every creature," never alive along with "every living thing," not "enemies" in order for them not to be among "the saved."

You have attempted unsuccessfully to redefine with a a narrow unbiblical definition just one word, the "world."  "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . . " 

What about the rest?  You must also prove they have no knees and no tongues, for, "There is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; There is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath." (Isaiah 45:21-23)

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 06, 2008, 06:33:35 AM
You came back at me with many quotations from various epistles of Paul. Paul is a parable hard to be understood by the gentiles that there might be an elect of the gentiles.
Why Peter said of the teaching of Paul what he did, and you know what he said.
You had best get a grip on what Jesus said, and on the scriptures of the old testament which speak of Him, and get off the unstable ground you are on taking what you think Paul said over what Jesus Christ said.
It is not the gospel of Paul that will make you wise, free, and give you eternal life, but the gospel of Jesus Christ!

Psa 83:2  For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.

enemy:

H341
אויב    איב
'ôyêb  'ôyêb
o-yabe', o-yabe'
Active participle of H340; hating; an adversary: - enemy, foe.


Psa 83:3  They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.

Psa 83:13  O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind.

Psa 83:14  As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;

Psa 83:15  So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.

Psa 83:16  Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.

seek

H1245
בּקשׁ
bâqash
baw-kash'
A primitive root; to search out (by any method; specifically in worship or prayer); by implication to strive after: - ask, beg, beseech, desire, enquire, get, make inquisition, procure, (make) request, require,

Psa 83:17  Let them be confounded and troubled forever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:

Something to consider: 

Ezekiel 28:1 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying,

2 Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, So says the Lord Jehovah, Because your heart is lifted up, and you have said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, in the heart of the seas; yet you are a man, and not God, though you give your heart as the heart of gods.

3 Behold, you are wiser than Daniel. Every one of the secret things are not hidden to you.

4 With your wisdom and with your understanding you have made riches for yourself, and have worked gold and silver into your treasuries.

5 By your great wisdom, by your trade you have multiplied your riches, and your heart is lifted up because of your riches.

6 So the Lord Jehovah says this: Because you have given your heart as the heart of gods,

7 behold, so I will bring on you awesome strangers of the nations. And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and will defile your splendor.

8 They will cause you to go down to the Pit, and you shall die the deaths of the slain in the heart of the seas.

9 Saying, do you say, I am of the gods before him who strikes you? But you are a man, and not God, in the hands of him who pierces you.

10 You shall die the deaths of the uncircumcised, by the hand of strangers. For I have spoken, says the Lord Jehovah.

11 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying,

12 Son of man, lift up a lament over the king of Tyre, and say to him, So says the Lord Jehovah: You seal the measure, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You have been in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering; the ruby, the topaz, and the jasper, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the turquoise, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of your tambourines and of your flutes in you. In the day you were createdT, they were prepared.

14 You were the anointed cherub that covers, and I had put you in the holy heights of God, where you were. You walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Now this is interesting, The perfect anointed cherub that was in the garden of Eden with God that fell.

This can only be the serpent.

But don't it say that he is only a man?

Isn't the only man in Eden Adam?

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you

16 By the multitude of your trade, they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. So I cast you defiled from the height of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire.

17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground.

Isn't that what happened to the serpent?

(Gen.3:14 upon thy belly shalt thou go)

I will put you before kings, that they may see you.

18 By the host of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trade, you have defiled your holy places. So I brought a fire from your midst and it shall devour you, and I will give you for ashes on the earth in the sight of all who see you.

19 All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at you. You shall be terrors, and you will not be forever.

20 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying,

21 Son of man, set your face against Sidon and prophesy against her,

22 and say, So says the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I am against you, O Sidon, and I will be glorified in your midst. And they shall know that I am Jehovah when I have done judgments in her and shall be sanctified by her.

23 And I will send a plague into her, and blood into her streets. And the slain will fall in her midst by the sword, on her from all around. And they shall know that I am Jehovah.

24 And there will not be a pricking brier or a painful thorn to the house of Israel any more from all who surround them, those who hate them. And they shall know that I am the Lord Jehovah.

25 So says the Lord Jehovah: When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are dispersed, and have been sanctified in them in the sight of the nations, then they shall dwell on their land which I have given to My servant Jacob.

26 And they shall dwell in it securely and shall build houses and plant vineyards. Yes, they shall dwell securely, when I have done judgments on all those who hate them round about them. And they shall know that I am Jehovah their God.

Isaiah 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. The strangers will be joined with them, and they will cling to the house of Jacob.

2 Then people will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them for servants and maids in the land of the LORD; they will take them captive whose captives they were, and rule over their oppressors.

3 It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve,

4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: "How the oppressor has ceased, The golden city ceased!

5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of the rulers;

6 He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke, He who ruled the nations in anger, Is persecuted [and] no one hinders.

7 The whole earth is at rest [and] quiet; They break forth into singing.

8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, [And] the cedars of Lebanon, [Saying,] 'Since you were cut down, No woodsman has come up against us.'

9 "Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet [you] at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.

10 They all shall speak and say to you: 'Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us?

11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, [And] the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.'

12 " How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [How] you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, [And] consider you, [saying:] '[Is] this the man[/u] who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,

Here again we are taught this is the fall of Satan. He was cut to the ground like the serpent but it also says that he is a man.

John 8:44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and [does not] stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources,] for he is a liar and the father of it.

(Adam was not decieved, but the liar)

Were did the devil kill anyone from the beginning?

Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It was Adam that brought death unto all from the beginning when he ate the fruit.

The serpent was the liar he told Eve that death wouldn't come if they ate the fruit.

Adam was not deceived

1Ti 2:14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


Could it be that Adam and the serpent are one and the same.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,

1 John 3:11-12For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Genesis 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain.

Cain was of Adam so John is saying Adam is the wicked one (devil).

Jer 9:11And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons

The Dragons here are wicked men.

Matt 3:4-7
Now John himself was clothed in camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,"Brood of vipers


Here John called men vipers.

Matt 23:33 Serpents, brood of vipers ! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Jesus calls men vipers here.

Satan is the "adversary" and Adam deliberately went against God.

1 Tim.2:14 And Adam was not deceived.


Adam was the adversary of God in Eden, the command was only to him."

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

Still no responses from you to my posts...  :thumbdown:  Just more babble of your own...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 06, 2008, 05:33:52 AM
I am really sorry that you don't realize that Jesus died for the sins of the world meaning every sinner in this present age. Those who are saved in this present age have no threat from the second death, meaning death in the millineum. The point of the millineum is the seperation of the wheat and the tares,  the light from the darkness. The saints are the holy angels.

(1)  There is no "millenium" except in THEOLOGIAN theories... it is UNBIBLICAL and NOT of the Word of God dusty...

(2)  This present age?  What is this present age dusty?  When did it commence? And when shall it end?

(3) Saints ARE the Holy Angels?  book, chapter, verse...  The saints ARE messengers (aggelos /#32 strongs)... but if you mean them to be ANGELS, this is quite off base.

(4) The Second Death is for ALL who have participated in THIS LIST (which is ALL): 

(Rev 21:8) But the FEARFUL [all who have "feared"] and UNBELIEVING [all have been CONCLUDED to this state by GOD - Rom 11:32] and the ABOMINABLE [ALL who have done ANYTHING UNHOLY] and MURDERERS [which includes anyone who has been angry with his brother for no good reason] and SORCERERS [which is actually DRUG users or peddlers] and IDOLATORS [anyone who has held ANYTHING above GOD within their days of life] and ALL LIARS [anyone who has born OTHER than truth at any given time - which is ALL] ...SHALL have their part in the LAKE of FIRE and brimstone... 

And what pray tell is the "LAKE of FIRE"?

(Rev 20:14) The LAKE of FIRE, is where DEATH and HELL were cast into = the SECOND DEATH 

(Rev 20:15) ANYONE not found in the book of life was cast into this LAKE of FIRE...

THIS lifetime, dusty... is the LAKE of FIRE... it is where ALL SINNERS - which DIE that "2nd death" have been cast... and certainly DEATH and HELL (the GRAVE) are present in this TIME scenario as well...

CHRIST tasted DEATH (to redeem us from it) for EVERY MAN... (Heb 2:9) The death He died to REDEEM us from, is the FIRST DEATH... (spirit)... He did NOT die FLESHLY death for us... nor to redeem us from it...

The SECOND DEATH is the DEATH of the flesh... which RIGHTLY returns to the DUST in DEATH... but our SPIRIT, which CHRIST "tasted death" FOR... returns to GOD...

ALL are blotted out... by their SIN in the FLESH... And that BLOTTING results in DEATH of the FLESH...

ALL are written in the BOOK of the LAMB's LIFE... in the SPIRIT for which He DIED to write each of us INTO it!

QuoteThe millineum is the seperation of the wheat and the tares.

There is no "MILLENIUM" dusty... just as there is no "TRINITY", ...just as there is no "RAPTURE"... just as no one is "GOING to HEAVEN", and no one is "GOING to HELL", ...just as there is no "ETERNAL SEPARATION"... just as there is no "FREE WILL"... just as there is no "DECISION for CHRIST"... just as there  is no "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL"... just as there is no "SECOND COMING of CHRIST"... just as there is no "SINNERS PRAYER"... and on, and on, and blah, :blahgreen: bl-blah, bl-blah-blah-blah  :blah:... go the false doctrines of Christianity.

Try to FIND any of these in the Bible dusty... you WON'T!  :mnah:

But you WILL find most ALL these in the various varieties of Christian churches!  :omg:

QuoteRevelation 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You have GOD going back & forth, and REDEEMING then postponing (for 1000yrs)... all misconceptions of SYMBOLIC writing...

QuoteYou can be ignorant of scripture if you want and think the tare is your flesh if you will but you have been told the truth of these things. God is not mocked and the scriptures can not be broken.  The report is hard to be understood, and is a vexation to the whole world. No surprise, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but spiritual wickedness in high places.

Methinks it is YOU which is ignorant of Scripture... NO one is mocking GOD... we are ALL trying to understand... and we are ALL WELL AWARE that the Scripture cannot be broken...

You are correct dusty... the report is HARD to be understood, which is why you are having such difficulty!

SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS in HIGH PLACES... Those HIGH PLACES being the hearts of  MEN (who are the TEMPLES of the HOLY SPIRIT) as they SINFULLY hold their will above GOD's...

It (SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS) is NOT some omnipresent demon the religious call "satan", that embattles GOD... on some bloody battlefield after some symbolic amount of TIME ("millenium") and which bears NO REASON for occuring as you portray it to occur... making NO SENSE at all...  please...  :shakepoint:

There is no "MILLENIUM" dusty...  :sigh:

Show this term to us in the Word of God...

There IS a symbolic notation of 1000yrs written in The Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, but this symbol, is not as you suppose it to be...

You make it an island of TIME... a LITERAL period of TIME, ...as if it is literally going to occur...

PLEASE EXPLAIN what REASON there is for ...CHRIST to "rule and reign" for 1000 "years", and then let the devil out of his prison to cause more chaos... Then, finally end all this business?  That is a cockeyed, illogical, and ignorant observation to say the least...  :scratchhead:

When you clean up a baby (which is what redemption amounts to), ...do you wash his right arm, then come back later after watching the football game, and wash the other arm, ...then go and watch tv for a while, and come back later to wash his face... and after changing the sheets on the bed, ...return to wash his left leg, ...please!  :mshock:

When GOD delivered the JEWS from BONDAGE... there were no INCREMENTS divided by any periods of TIME!  Their deliverance included ALL the JEWS, and their individual deliverances OCCURED simulataneously!

The SCRIPTURE says EVERY EYE shall see His SALVATION!  Not in broken up "increments"...

(Rev 1:7)  Behold He cometh with clouds and EVERY EYE shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him; and ALL KINDREDS of the earth, shall wail because of Him.

ALL shall behold His majesty SIMULTANEOUSLY... at the conclusion of the LAST DAY:

(Is 52:10)  YHVH hath made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of ALL the nations; and ALL the ENDS OF THE EARTH shall see the SALVATION of OUR GOD.

peACe

willieH: Hi PT...  :heat:

Once again, I find myself getting weary of your continuos babble... (it has happened so many time previously, I have lost count).... :bdh:

Believe what you shall...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 06, 2008, 06:33:35 AM
You came back at me with many quotations from various epistles of Paul. Paul is a parable hard to be understood by the gentiles that there might be an elect of the gentiles.
Why Peter said of the teaching of Paul what he did, and you know what he said.
You had best get a grip on what Jesus said, and on the scriptures of the old testament which speak of Him, and get off the unstable ground you are on taking what you think Paul said over what Jesus Christ said.
It is not the gospel of Paul that will make you wise, free, and give you eternal life, but the gospel of Jesus Christ!

Plain & simple dusty... YOU misunderstand the Gospel of JESUS CHRIST... as do you misunderstand His Words... and you fare no better with PAUL...

And in this, you evade everyone, and fail to answer even one of us... all you do is continue to yammer useless illogical words, noting verses which do not prove your points... and pretty much, waste time.  I pray for you brother...  :Pray: :cloud9:

No one here holds PAUL over CHRIST... these are your accusations... and they are based upon YOUR (MIS)UNDERSTANDING of the words of CHRIST, not on the Words of CHRIST...

You must consider the possibility (hard as it may be to do) that it is YOU which is incorrectly observing...

peACe

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

hmmmm the """sea"""

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he [is] the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he [is] the tail.


Eze 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself.


Isa 19:15 Neither shall there be [any] work for Egypt, which the head or tail, branch or rush, may do.


:happygrin:

 It is correct that in Adam all die, and in Christ shall all be made alive. The point is right there. All Adamic men must die, and be made alive in the new Adam, Jesus.

Corinthians 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Tares are not in Adam, as he is not their father, and God doesn't have any plan for the tares other than to gather them together and at the end of the millineum, eliminate them, and banish Satan and his angels to the outer darkness forever.

To forgive the world in this age means just that. He could only let Adam out of this death by letting the tares go also. This is not the harvest and they were not rooted out in this dispensation of the trial. Remember the parable.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

You keep refering to these verses from John 1 to justify saying flesh is the tare, since all have fallen short of perfection.

1 John 3:7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Here is your trump card.

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Here is mine. If you are in Christ you have ceased to do anything in God's eyes, Jesus Christ IS your righteosness, and His , Christ's seed, or earnest as Paul called it remains in you. This is why the breath of God, the Adamic race as a whole, must go through the second death to their salvation, as do the tares to their destruction. The purpose of the  millineum.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Those with the earnest of Jesus are never to be under the power of the second death.

so your saying i am of the devil?



Bobby Boucher: Everything is the devil to you, Mama! Well, I like school, and I like football! And I'm gonna keep doin' them both because they make me feel good!


Bobby Boucher: [Bobby runs back out, then back in again] And I like Vicki, and she like me back! And she showed me her boobies and I like them too!


Bobby Boucher: Look Who's on TV mama... it's the devil.


Mama Boucher: That's Nonsense, I Invented Electricity. Ben Franklin Is The Devil!



SERPENT SEED DOCTRINE IS OF THE DEVIL

Shuck and jive on, but I have told you. What is going on here is rational, from beginning to end. There is no majical becoming just like Jesus in your flesh, here on earth, no breaking of the scriptures, and in the end no Darkness at all.
Chuck, why do you think you are not of Adam? Several of you have implied that. What is the source of this within you? I see that you comprehend all humans are not of Adam apparently, Just as Balaam said.

1 Chronicles 1:1
Adam, Sheth,  Enosh,

Since Noah and his sons were sons of Seth, hense all Adamic men on earth are sons of Seth what was Balaam saying?

Numbers 24:17
I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

 

QuoteChuck, why do you think you are not of Adam? Several of you have implied that. What is the source of this within you? I see that you comprehend all humans are not of Adam apparently, Just as Balaam said

.

HUH :dontknow:

QuoteSince Noah and his sons were sons of Seth, hense all Adamic men on earth are sons of Seth what was Balaam saying?

Numbers 24:17
I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

can you despinse with the riddles and just say it?  when did the nonadamic race come into being?

How many times must I say it. With the birth of Cain. Abel was Adams son, in his likeness as next was Seth. When Cain was born Eve said where he came from.

Genesis 4
1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.  

2And she again bare his brother Abel.  And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. [this is the son she concieved from Adam]

Paul backs this up exactly.

1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

 ok now how did cains line make it thru the flood?

are you pushing the serpent seed doctrine?


you wrote:

Quote1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

YOU SEE IT???  """"""because""" his works were evil he is of the wicked one!!!  cain was of that wicked one BECAUSE his works not the other way around!!!! :happy3:

So who is "Ishmael"?  Is he of the evil one??  Is he to be cast out??  to be destroyed??  

But Abraham had two sons.  One to be "cast out", and one to be "rewarded".  One who knows not the spiritual things of the Father, and one who does.    Same father, two sons, one to be cast out; and one to never be destroyed.

Is Ishmael from adamic race??




Gal 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.


Gal 4:23  But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.


Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


Gal 4:25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.


Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Gal 4:27  For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.  


Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.


Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.


 


Hbr 12:18 ¶ For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,


Hbr 12:25 ¶ See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven:

Hbr 12:26  Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.


Hbr 12:27  And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.


Hbr 12:29  For our God [is] a consuming fire.

you wrote:

Quote1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

YOU SEE IT???  """"""because""" his works were evil he is of the wicked one!!!  cain was of that wicked one BECAUSE his works not the other way around!!!! :happy3:


READ IT IN CONTEXT:


8 Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning. For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary.
9 Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.
10 In this are apparent the children of God and the children of the Adversary: everyone who is not doing righteousness is not of God, and who is not loving his brother.
11 For this is the message which you hear from the beginning,
12 that we may be loving one another, not according as Cain was of the wicked one and slays his brother. And on behalf of what does he slay him? Seeing that his acts were wicked, yet those of his brother, just.13 Marvel not, brethren, if the world is hating you.

" A hologram is a flat surface that, under proper illumination, appears to contain a three-dimensional image. A hologram may also project a three-dimensional image into the air—a lifelike image that can be photographed although it cannot be touched. Because they cannot be copied by ordinary means, holograms are widely used to prevent counterfeiting of documents such as credit cards, driver's licenses, and admission tickets. The word hologram comes from the Greek roots holos meaning whole and gramma meaning message. The process of making a hologram is called holography. When a hologram is made, light from a laser records an image of the desired object on film or a photographic plate."


Each cell of a hologram contains the whole message--the entire picture.  When light is shined on it, it reaches into a new dimension (e.g. a two dimensional picture becomes three dimensional).

In a normal photograph, each cell contains a portion of the picture.  In a hologram, each cell contains 'the whole message.'

Sheep follow the leader.  They go unthinkingly where the leader goes.  If the leader is bad, the sheep will  follow him to their destruction.


Jeremiah 50:6
My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.


Only the good shepherd leads the sheep in the paths of righteousness.


1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

--Psalm 23

Yet, the object is not to remain sheep but to grow up into the head of Christ.  The object is for each cell(person) to become a complete image of Christ, as in a hologram.  The object is for each part of the body (each person) to become complete and perfected.

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.



It is my hope that when this happens to enough people (a critical mass?) , the light of Christ will shine on the hologram, showing a picture of Christ that will fill the whole earth, and our prayer will be answered--on earth as it is in heaven.  It is my hope that truth will fill the whole earth, bringing down the kings of satan whose feet of clay (lies) is their fatal flaw.  The sons of God will stand for truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.



34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.



44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

--Daniel 2

PT your doctrine of who will enter God's kingdom rests solely on physical, literal, fleshly descent - contradicting Paul and Christ.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

And since you don't like us quoting Paul, here is Christ:

John 8:36  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38  I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40  But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41  Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42  Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Note that Christ says:
[1] they ARE the seed of Abraham
[2] they ARE NOT the children of Abraham

The first is physical and meaningless.  The second is spiritual and all that matters.

PT nothing could be more plain.  Fleshly decent does not matter at all.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

--Hebrews 11



"figure"
G3850
παραβολή
parabolē
par-ab-ol-ay'
From G3846; a similitude ("parable"), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.



G3846
παραβάλλω
paraballō
par-ab-al'-lo
From G3844 and G906; to throw alongside, that is, (reflexively) to reach a place, or (figuratively) to liken: - arrive, compare.

Boy, how many times do I have to say the same things about the same subjects to have it understood.

Cain and a wife were on the arc with Noah. Noah had seven clean persons and he was called the eigth clean person meaning Noah. He also had two of the unclean, meaning Cain. If this were not so there could have been no kenites[son's of Cain] after the flood. They attached themselves to the tribe of Judah, and became jews. Look it up. Research it.

Not all who are of Israel are Israel, as I said above and all the children of God, the saints are of the tribes of Israel, or in other words Jacob. A whole 144,000 of them.They were born from above by the will of God. Of His Spirit. Borne from the womb to the grave. The workers in the field.
Also all of the elect who are of the gentiles who are adopted children into the family of God. On all of these the second death has no power.
 All the others of Israel shall be saved as shall all the decendants of Adam. This occurs in the millineum. Saved because they are the breath of God.

willieH: Hi brother Chuck! :hithere:

Quote from: chuckt on May 06, 2008, 09:22:07 PM
8 Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the dversary sinning. For this-> -> -> -> was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary.

:goodpost:  Great post brother C!

This in a nutshell says it all!  CHRIST's mission (as he sought and found the LOST) was to ANNUL (do AWAY with or Neutralize) the acts of the ADVERSARY... which is "satan"... those being the acts of SIN in men... which have tainted the ENTIRE CREATION... and brought DEATH upon ALL living things...

Dusty just will not see, nor will he actually discuss... that which he will not see...  He has stated that others with whom he is in discussion here, ...HOLD HIGHER, the words of PAUL over the Words of JESUS, and you brother Chuck, have nicely, simply and truthfully shown otherwise, by noting the witness of JOHN as well!

Are we to stuff the writings of JOHN into the incinerator with PAUL's?  And that the words of JESUS are also stated to be PARABOLIC and SPIRIT, and can understood in the SPIRIT ONLY... which means that as we each observe those words... we observe in part... ALL of us!

As a father of 3, and grandfather of 9... I can witness of the depth of my heart, that if I had power to save ALL of them from a peril that might face them... I would not select my "favorites" or the "best behaved" or the ones that are "most like ME",  of the bunch and SAVE them, basing their lives worthy of saving, upon THEIR response to ME...

Rather, I would save them ALL... which would be MY RESPONSE to THEM!  

For THAT is what LOVE DOES!

LOVE that is true, and pure, ...esteems ALL equally!

Praise our Father, for your post today!

peACe

willieH:  Howdy ...'troll... :hithere:

More useless and unfounded and unproven babble... just as those who reside totally in the flesh proclaim SOMETHING (everything) came from NOTHING... do you suppose to feed us your babble...  :thumbdown:

Failing to answer question after question asked of you...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 06, 2008, 10:26:33 PM
Boy, how many times do I have to say the same things about the same subjects to have it understood.

The only thing understood here dusty, is your obstinant attitude toward the truth... you post fabrication after fabrication... and expect the children to swallow it...

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 06, 2008, 10:26:33 PMCain and a wife were on the arc with Noah. Noah had seven clean persons and he was called the eigth clean person meaning Noah. He also had two of the unclean, meaning Cain. If this were not so there could have been no kenites[son's of Cain] after the flood. They attached themselves to the tribe of Judah, and became jews. Look it up. Research it.

You fail to note Scriptural proofs for these assertions, then instruct US to "research it"?  :laughing7:  Please! :rolleye:

Gen 7:1  And YHVH said unto Noah, ...come thou and ALL thy house into the ark, for thee have I seen RIGHTEOUS before me in this generation...

(1) The word THEE references Noah AND his HOUSE... and does NOT appear in the SCRIPTURES... all references such as thee, he, she, etc... are INSERTED referencing prior context... you should KNOW this dude!  Since you have alluded that you have done "research"!

(2) Notice that even if you wish to make differentiation... BOTH the CLEAN ...AND... UNCLEAN, were SAVED!

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 06, 2008, 10:26:33 PMNot all who are of Israel are Israel, as I said above and all the children of God, the saints are of the tribes of Israel, or in other words Jacob. A whole 144,000 of them.They were born from above by the will of God. Of His Spirit. Borne from the womb to the grave. The workers in the field.

More LITERAL beliefs from SYMBOLIC writings... no proof forthcoming...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 06, 2008, 10:26:33 PMAlso all of the elect who are of the gentiles who are adopted children into the family of God. On all of these the second death has no power.

Again, no SPIRITUAL knowledge of the "2nd death" is displayed here...  :Yeahright:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 06, 2008, 10:26:33 PMAll the others of Israel shall be saved as shall all the decendants of Adam. This occurs in the millineum. Saved because they are the breath of God.

No "millenium" dusty... just another false "orthodox term" which does NOT appear in Scripture, and OFTEN used by you, to falsely verify your false teachings and beliefs...  :pitiful:

Using such terms only places you in the same category as those who attempt to prove the "RAPTURE" as Biblical... :mnah: :BangHead:  :declare:

peACe

Christ did disannul the works of the adversary. He fullfilled all the rules and regulations given by that one to set men free of the covenant with death, meaning the adversary.

Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

11 For you, this whole vision is like words that are sealed up in a scroll. Suppose you give it to someone who can read. And suppose you say to him, "Please read this for us." Then he'll answer, "I can't. It's sealed up." 12 Or suppose you give the scroll to someone who can't read. And suppose you say, "Please read this for us." Then he'll answer, "I don't know how to read."

13 The Lord says,
   "These people worship me only with their words.
      They honor me by what they say.
      But their hearts are far away from me.
   Their worship doesn't mean anything to me.
      They teach nothing but human rules.
14 So once more I will shock these people
      with many wonderful acts.
   I will destroy the wisdom of those who think they are so wise.
      I will do away with the cleverness of those who think they are so smart."
15 How terrible it will be for people who do everything they can
      to hide their plans from the Lord!
   They do their work in darkness.
      They think, "Who sees us? Who will know?"
16 They turn everything upside down.
      How silly they are to think that potters are like the clay they work with!
   Can what is made say to the one who made it,
      "You didn't make me"?
   Can the pot say to the potter,
      "You don't know anything"?
17 In a very short time, Lebanon will be turned into rich farm lands.
      The rich farm lands will seem like a forest.
18 At that time those who can't hear will hear what is read from the scroll.
      Those who are blind will come out of gloom and darkness.
      They will be able to see.
19 Those who aren't proud will once again find their joy in the Lord.
      And those who are in need will find their joy in the Holy One of Israel.
20 Those who don't show any pity will vanish.
      Those who make fun of others will disappear.
      All those who look for ways to do what is evil will be cut off.
21 Without any proof, they claim that a man is guilty.
      In court they try to trap
      the one who speaks up for others.
   By using dishonest witnesses they keep those who aren't guilty
      from being treated fairly.

22 Long ago the Lord saved Abraham from trouble. Now he says to Jacob's people,
   "You will not be ashamed anymore.
      Your faces will no longer grow pale with fear.
23 You will see your children living among you.
      I myself will give you those children.
   Then you will honor my name.
      You will recognize how holy I am.
      I am the Holy One of Jacob.
   You will have great respect for me.
      I am the God of Israel.
24 I will give understanding to you
      who find yourselves going down the wrong path.
   You who are always speaking against others
      will accept what I teach you."




--Isa 29

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 06, 2008, 10:26:33 PM
Boy, how many times do I have to say the same things about the same subjects to have it understood.

Cain and a wife were on the arc with Noah. Noah had seven clean persons and he was called the eigth clean person meaning Noah. He also had two of the unclean, meaning Cain. If this were not so there could have been no kenites[son's of Cain] after the flood. They attached themselves to the tribe of Judah, and became jews. Look it up. Research it.

.

For your theory you require there to be 2 additional kenites to be in the ark but according to scripture "In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; Gen 7:13   there were 8 of mankind in the ark only   There were also beasts of the field 7 of the clean and 2 of the unclean   (however they can not be the kenites as beasts are defined as mute and are not human).

Everything that was not in the ark was destroyed. Scriptures clearly states what went into the ark.  Are you saying that God inspired an inaccurate recording of what went into the ark??....  If Cain and his wife were on that ark it would be recorded in Genesis 7  and not left for our imaginations to invent something like:- because there are clean and unclean beasts on the ark, there must be clean and unclean humans on the ark too ......   so ...... that means instead of eight humans on the ark there must be 10...    

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark. Gen 7:23

Quote from: reFORMer on May 06, 2008, 07:16:08 AM
  These Cainites, Serpents Seed Company, Tares, Children of the Devil must be proven to
not be some of "the All,"
not of "all the world,"
not to have "flesh" or be some of the "all flesh,"
to not be something of "all things,"
nothing of "all things (that) were made by [God,] and without Him was nothing made that was made,"
not anything of "all creation,"
not one of "every creature,"
never alive along with "every living thing,"
not "enemies"
in order for them NOT to be among "the saved."

You have attempted unsuccessfully to redefine with a a narrow unbiblical definition just one word, the "world."  But, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . . " 

What about the rest?

I'm still waiting for some indication you regard Scripture as I previously quoted proving my assertions above peacetroll . . .

Quote from: meerkat on May 07, 2008, 03:17:37 AM

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 06, 2008, 10:26:33 PM
Boy, how many times do I have to say the same things about the same subjects to have it understood.

Cain and a wife were on the arc with Noah. Noah had seven clean persons and he was called the eigth clean person meaning Noah. He also had two of the unclean, meaning Cain. If this were not so there could have been no kenites[son's of Cain] after the flood. They attached themselves to the tribe of Judah, and became jews. Look it up. Research it.

.

For your theory you require there to be 2 additional kenites to be in the ark but according to scripture "In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; Gen 7:13   there were 8 of mankind in the ark only   There were also beasts of the field 7 of the clean and 2 of the unclean   (however they can not be the kenites as beasts are defined as mute and are not human).

Everything that was not in the ark was destroyed. Scriptures clearly states what went into the ark.  Are you saying that God inspired an inaccurate recording of what went into the ark??....  If Cain and his wife were on that ark it would be recorded in Genesis 7  and not left for our imaginations to invent something like:- because there are clean and unclean beasts on the ark, there must be clean and unclean humans on the ark too ......   so ...... that means instead of eight humans on the ark there must be 10...    

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark. Gen 7:23

the Noah story, imo; is a similtude to how God makes man into his image.  The faithful (Noah) (similtude to those given eyes to see, ears to hear the true gospel), are saved (safe in the ark), those outside (those stuck in the self righteous mode, empowered by the old covennat) are destroyed (second death via flood/lake of fire), ie: saved through fire/shaming/destruction.  Seeing their house built upon the sand come crashing down.


For Cain to have been on the ark, imo; would mean that the "Cain's" today would be saved via the ark (via ears to hear TRUTH), rather than through destruction/fire.  Imo, there was no "Cain's" on the ark. 

 

Laren

Yes 

1 Peter 3:20-21  refer to this

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.   


   1Pe 3:21      The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Peacetroll
The following are some quotes from you:

----------------
Reply #34 on: May 01, 2008, 04:55:27 PM »
Christ made it abundantly clear who the tares are, children of Satan.  Eve is the mother of all, but Adam is not.
All things are pre-planned and will follow a path set long before this Universe was brought into creation.
-----------------
Reply #48 on: May 02, 2008, 01:41:45 PM »
Those people who are the tares are not of God,
----------------
Reply #52 on: May 02, 2008, 03:43:08 PM »
You can not grasp that Eve is the mother of all. Adam is not the father of all'
The answer as to whether I believe tares are human beings, yes they are totally carnal human beings, they have no inner man, or spirit from God, and they are not man as God
as God attributes a man to be.
-----------------
Reply #59 on: May 02, 2008, 06:20:49 PM »
As for being chosen that is up to God. As far as being special, God will save the whole Adamic race. If you are not of Adam you are not of God. Simple eh?
------------------
Reply #62 on: May 02, 2008, 09:04:52 PM »
Cain did not come from Adam. What did the lord do to Eve when she was pregnant with Cain?
Genesis 4
1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

What was said here?  She concieved and bore Cain, the only begotten of the Darkness, the produced Able, the son of Adam.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Can you guess what beguiled means litteraly.
---------------------------
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2008, 11:02:55 PM »
The serpent, Leviatrhan had many children with Eve after that, as Adam went three hundred years without touching her over Cain the son of the murderer, the antichrist.    

====================================



O.K. Peacetroll...is this what you are saying?

The linage of the Adamic race is through the mating of male and female humans.
But the tares (the serpent seed) is through the mating of Leviathan and a woman....actually - any woman.
Is that what you are saying?

Let's take this a step further.

If you Peacetroll - have any brothers or sister,... there is actually a good possibility that one or more of your brothers or sisters may actually be tares....right?
Now this is through no fault of their own...but nonetheless these sibling tares of yours - will be annihilated in the end.
And why?
Because your mom went a whoring with Leviathan....right?


Let's go even one more step further.

If you Peacetroll – have any children.... there is actually a good possibility that one or more of your children may actually be tares....right?
Now this is through no fault of their own...but nonetheless these children tares of yours - will be annihilated in the end.
And why?
Because your wife went a whoring with Leviathan....right?


How does that make you feel Peacetroll – with the odds stacked against all your family members – to be saved?

Do you just shrug your shoulders and say "Oh Well"?
It was all pre-planned from the beginning.


WOW... this sounds just like the 'good news' of Calvinism.
And you boastly proclaim that you left UR for this foolish kind of belief system.


AJ....

PT.

you qoute:

1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

and try and prove cain is  father of tares and tares cant and wont be saved. yet from the very beginning we find:

Gen 4:7  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?  :msealed: and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.



according to GOD  ""tares"" CAN BE accepted if they do well :mshock:


look no one here will change  your mind.

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.


THERE is only one way, its humility!!!  so let it go and fall down and call on GOD not your own understanding!!!

one is ""OF that wicked one"" Because his own works were evil, NOT because of biological offspring!!!


ALSO:

QuotePaul backs this up exactly.

1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

i didnt know paul wrote 1 john?? and again why was he ""of"" the wicked on?? BECAUSE his OWN works were evil!!!!!!!!!!!


why cant you see it???? :Pray:



said in love
chuckt AKA euty
:Peace2:

A tare can not hear Christ. Cut and dried, right from the mouth of Jesus.

John 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me:  for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.   

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

As concerns Cain, there were Kenites who attached themselves to Judah. They became jews. Kenite means sons of Cain...Research it, instead of ignoring the logical explanation of how they lived through the flood.  Use reason, not your own interpetation of the arc, or saying tares can convert when Jesus said they could not.

PT

The linking of part of humanity predestined for destruction through no fault of their own and because of descent of the flesh and part of humanity predestined for glory seems to be totally contra to the gospel and the reason why Jesus was born  in the flesh and died and was resurrected in the Spirit.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Jesus came to defeat the works of the devil who has the power of death

See Hebrews 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The wages of sin is death

In Genesis you will notice that Eve and Adam "ate of the fruit" together and their eyes were opened together.

Gen 3:6      And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.   


   Gen 3:7      And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The "serpent" tempted, deceived Eve and Adam and Eve both ate.

Which internet sites do you recommend if I want to look and research about the serpent seed doctrine? I would
like to see where your ideas origninate.

Also I believe that the significance of Cain's name being left out of the geneology of Adam through to Noah is that Cain was not an ancester of Noah and none of Cain's descendants were in the ark. It was not that Cain was not a son of Adam he just was not the ancestor of any in the ark. Adam and Eve had other children who were not listed as well. The purpose of the recording of the lineage from Adam to Noah - then the lineage from Seth to Jesus is the Royal line and is not to be used to say that everybody not in that list is a son of Satan.

"The Serpent's Seed Doctrine" is hand in hand with skin-head and neo-Nazi use of the Bible.  They point out that when Jesus said, "You are of your father the Devil . . . " it was to Judeans, that is "Jews."  Is this why you keep saying "The Tares," "Kenites" attached themselves to "Judah," that they became "The Jews?"

Also I note no attempt by you to disprove God's promises of salvation to all creation, a much wider work than all mankind alone.

Jesus Christ will save all of His creation. Adam, for Jesus  is the beginning of the creeation of God, and He is not ashamed of all that belongs to Him. The Darkness and his angels are not part of His creation, neither are the tares, the children of Satan and his angels.

I have given you many pearls, and you do not look at them with any effort to reserch them at all.
The sons of Adam perish in this world, from lack of knowledge, following the wisdom of carnal men. These men[so called] are not of God, and will not go to God. God forgave the world, wheat and tares, so He may seperate them in the harvest, the millineum.
You are willingly ignorant of the fact that He is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
There is an end to this trial, as there is an end to all things earthly, including this present world. What is happening is rational and is hidden in parable form.
YOU do have a world full of enemies who are at emnity with God, and will not escape destruction. They may speak great swelling words, and say things that seem He is not what He is. Empty words from the enemy of your spirit. His day is almost over, and he has decieved the whole world except for the saints and elect, as it is written, if it were possible.
We, you, and I, now at this point and time. The end is near.

Revelation 7:2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.  

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
.

Almost done.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

--Matt 23

Quote[ As concerns Cain, there were Kenites who attached themselves to Judah. They became jews. Kenite means sons of Cain...Research it,

I HAVE RESEARCHED IT!!!

 Did you use a Strongs  for reference? If you did then you know it is a fact.

"Cain"
H7014
קין
qayin
kah'-yin
The same as H7013 (with a play upon the affinity to H7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe: - Cain, Kenite (-s).



"Kenite"
H7017
קיני    קיני
qêynîy  qîynîy
kay-nee', kee-nee'
Patronymic from H7014; a Kenite or member of the tribe of Kajin: - Kenite.



12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgacrapes, and the Jebusites.


--Genesis 15

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 08, 2008, 07:15:28 PM
Did you use a Strongs  for reference? If you did then you know it is a fact.

dosent matter, you refuse to address the points i made!

god said to CAIN:

Gen 4:7  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


and you refuse to understand this text>

1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


men are not evil because of bloodline.


take care
chuckt

Quote from: PeaceTroll
The Darkness and his angels are not part of His creation, neither are the tares, the children of Satan and his angels

Then how do you explain these verses?

(Col. 1:16) For by him were ALL THINGS CREATED, THAT ARE IN HEAVEN, AND THAT ARE IN EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM, AND FOR HIM.

(Malachi 2:10) Have we not ALL ONE FATHER? hath not one God created us?

(Isaiah 40:26-28)  Verse 28, "The Creator of the ends of the earth".

(Eccl. 11:5) Bottom of verse. so thou knowest not the works of God WHO MAKETH ALL.

CHB

Re: reply #108:

These Cainites, Serpents Seed Company, Tares, Children of the Devil must be proven to be

not some of "the All,"
not of "all the world,"
not to have "flesh" or be some of the "all flesh,"
to not be something of "all things,"
nothing of "all things (that) were made by [God,] and without Him was nothing made that was made,"
not anything of "all creation,"
not one of "every creature,"
never alive along with "every living thing,"
not "enemies"

in order for them NOT to be among "the saved."

You have attempted unsuccessfully to redefine with a a narrow unbiblical definition just one word, the "world."  But,
"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . . "
"The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14)
Jesus is "the Christ, the Savior of the world." (John 4:42)
Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)
Jesus "did not come to judge the world but to save the WORLD." (John 12:47)

What about the rest?

Quote from: CHB on May 08, 2008, 09:08:31 PM
Then how do you explain these verses?

Good point.  And these too!

John 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 08, 2008, 05:48:11 AM

Jesus Christ will save all of His creation. Adam, for Jesus  is the beginning of the creeation of God, and He is not ashamed of all that belongs to Him. The Darkness and his angels are not part of His creation, neither are the tares, the children of Satan and his angels.

I have given you many pearls, and you do not look at them with any effort to reserch them at all.
The sons of Adam perish in this world, from lack of knowledge, following the wisdom of carnal men. These men[so called] are not of God, and will not go to God. God forgave the world, wheat and tares, so He may seperate them in the harvest, the millineum.
You are willingly ignorant of the fact that He is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
There is an end to this trial, as there is an end to all things earthly, including this present world. What is happening is rational and is hidden in parable form.
YOU do have a world full of enemies who are at emnity with God, and will not escape destruction. They may speak great swelling words, and say things that seem He is not what He is. Empty words from the enemy of your spirit. His day is almost over, and he has decieved the whole world except for the saints and elect, as it is written, if it were possible.
We, you, and I, now at this point and time. The end is near.

Revelation 7:2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.  

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
.

Almost done.

No dusty... NOT "almost done" ...you were done before you started and in this discussion, have not bothered to answer ANYONE...  Then you require EVERYONE to be about answering YOU! :rolleye:

This has been your way ever since I have first encountered you.  Thinking yourself privy to TRUTH, while everyone else "willingly ignores"...  :thumbdown:

Believe what you shall dusty... for those beliefs YOU hold as an individual, have been previously declared, and noted that you would do so from the beginning, ...as have ALL other human and creation destinies been so earmarked by our LOVING Creator! (Is 46:10-11 / Eph 1:9-11)

Because YOU BELIEVE what YOU BELIEVE, does not make it TRUTH dusty...  :dontknow:  It only makes it WHAT YOU BELIEVE...   :dontknow:  NOTHING more...

The MAIN thing that continuosly escapes your viewpoint is REASON... There is NO REASON for GOD to create things to DESTROY them... such an agenda displays NO PURPOSE... rather, indicates a WASTE of CREATIVE involvement... much as do these:

One does not build a WOOD CABINET for the purpose of BURNING it... nor does one write a PIECE of MUSIC for the purpose of SHREDDING it... nor does one design and manufacture a CAR, purposing to CRUSH it...  These few examples show that such PURPOSED actions against these "creations" find themselves DEVOID of REASON and totally RIDICULOUS, as portrayed to be their individual creator's PURPOSE ...FOR THEM...

One builds a WOOD CABINET for visual beauty, functionality, and accomplishment, not to BURN it for FIREWOOD...  :thumbdown:

One writes a PIECE of MUSIC for audible beauty, joy, and accomplisment, not for his paper shredder to have a purpose!  :wacko2:

One manufactures a CAR for visual, audible, and functional beauty, as well as for a mode of useful transportation, ...not as an object to feed the METAL crusher...  :faint:

GOD tells us to REASON with Him... (Is 1:18) and therefore INDICATES  Himself as a REASONABLE being... otherwise His instruction to us, is found to be VAIN and FOOLISH...

Find some REASON in your BELIEFS dusty... then you give it the opportunity  to sound REASONABLE...  :wink2:

 :laughing7: I posed a thread, and it has run everywhere. The point of the post was wheat and tares. You have no answer to what the tares are except theories that they are the flesh, and that God will include them in the harvest. Contrary to what Jesus said bluntly. :thumbdown:
It is also no argument against my understanding of them to quote verses saying that all things were made by Jesus that were made. That is a fact.
Theproblem is that the Darkness and his angels were not "made". The tares bodies on the earth are made up of the elements which Jesus made. Their spirit is of their father. He was not made.
Quoting proverbs about the wicked is deceptive, because Solomon was under the God who spoke from the Gross Darkness.

As far as quoting Malachi about having one father, that was a prophet talking to the priests of the time, and upbraiding them. He was not speaking to the whole world. :laughing7: Carry on and God bless on the subject.

So the question is--who is 'the Darkness'--and how do we recognize him in the Bible?

Is he a god? :sigh:



You are all sons of the light, and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness."

- 1 Thessalonians 5:5

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 09, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
:laughing7: I posed a thread, and it has run everywhere. The point of the post was wheat and tares. You have no answer to what the tares are except theories that they are the flesh, and that God will include them in the harvest. Contrary to what Jesus said bluntly. :thumbdown:

Seems to me you don't know what Jesus' parable was about either. Yes, Jesus said the tares would be gathered up and burned. You should know that this is speaking of works.

(Heb.6:8) But that which BEARETH thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

(1Cor. 3:14-15) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Jesus message was ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, this is who he was talking to about the wheat and tares. If ALL Israel is going to be saved this means those who grew the wheat and tares as well.

Quote from: PeaceTroll
It is also no argument against my understanding of them to quote verses saying that all things were made by Jesus that were made. That is a fact.
Theproblem is that the Darkness and his angels were not "made".

Would you explain how they came into being? can evil just pop up on it's own any time it pleases and God cannot do a thing to stop it? If this is true, whoes to say this won't happen again after we are all spirit beings?

Quote from: PeaceTroll
The tares bodies on the earth are made up of the elements which Jesus made. Their spirit is of their father. He was not made.

How do you explain this verse?
(Num. 16:22) And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the GOD OF THE SPIRITS OF ALL FLESH,

(Num. 27:16) Let the Lord, the God of the SPIRITS OF ALL FLESH.

And this one?
(Job 12:10) In whose hand is the soul of EVERY LIVING THING, and the BREATH OF ALL MANKIND.

Quote from: PeaceTroll
Quoting proverbs about the wicked is deceptive, because Solomon was under the God who spoke from the Gross Darkness.

As far as quoting Malachi about having one father, that was a prophet talking to the priests of the time, and upbraiding them. He was not speaking to the whole world. :laughing7: Carry on and God bless on the subject.

Neither was Jesus speaking to the world when he gave the parable of the wheat and tares.

Here is something you might want to consider. In (John 8:42-44) Jesus is talking to the Jew's and he speaks as though Satan is their father, then in (verse 56) Jesus calls Abraham their father. How do you explain that?  Fleshly speaking, Abraham is their father, spiritually speaking, Jesus considered Satan their father because of their deeds.

CHB

 He is a part of Elohim, he is the wrath of God, the Darkness,  separated from the love of God which is the light. A hard thing to come to grasps with. This is why the scriptures said this of Jesus.

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.  

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Who was the other part of Elohim, or plural God, that Jesus was with???

You know that God dwells in the Light which no man has seen or can see.

Who then spoke as God to Moses out of the thick Darkness??

Deuteronomy 5:22
These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice:  and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

1 Kings 8:12
Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.


You have your answer to the question if you can bear it.

Why this was written,

Zechariah 14:8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

NO MORE ELOHIM, OR PLURAL GOD!! JESUS CHRIST WILL BE ALL AND IN ALL!!

I don't see any point in going any further about this subject as you can't explain what people will not hear.

 One last little addition, why would God tell Moses to go to help Israel in Egypt, and then try to kill him??

Exodus 4:21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

24And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.  

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

--John 1



"comprehended"

G2638
καταλαμβάνω
katalambanō
kat-al-am-ban'-o
From G2596 and G1983; to take eagerly, that is, seize, possess, etc. (literally or figuratively): - apprehend, attain, come upon, comprehend, find, obtain, perceive, (over-) take.

The proposed doctrine concerning the "Cainites," "Serpents Seed Company," "Tares," "Children of the Devil" is nowhere described in the Bible.  It is necessary to explain such a meaning into certain verses that are interpreted otherwise elsewhere in the Word itself.  There are no Bible words anywhere to be quoted that directly state what PeaceTroll is saying.  If you cannot say it with the actual words of Scripture it is not something we need to believe.

As I shared with PT before, seemingly to no avail, in the middle of the three parables in Luke 15 concerning the woman who lost one of ten pieces of silver, then found it and rejoiced, the underlying Greek word for "lost" is what is used in other passages to prove annihilationism, yet the coin was found.  This is a decisive death blow to that doctrine for any who will bow the stiff neck to make one's expression of faith to be only those things that God saith.

The whole discussion is confounded and tossed into the trash bin when it's principal proponent considers it his place to be dispensing with whatever portions of Sacred Scripture don't suit his subjective criteria.  For His belief, there is no such a thing as Scripture, so it is not decisive.  While God can overcome this hurdle, it is entirely likely He might do so only through the very instrument PeaceTroll has placed himself above as its judge.  God sometimes uses the very person or thing we've rejected.  Outside that he may have to be done to as he has done to God's Word:  be laid aside himself, certainly in certain specific areas of development and usefulness.  There are marvelous things to be said of humility of course .  .  . if he can ever be enticed into putting himself and his doctrine on the altar before the face of His Majesty's presence.

 :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: ALL I use is scripture, with understanding. I get back feel good interpetations, and the total rejections of the sayings of Jesus.
It does not bother me, I'm used to that.
I noticed you had no easy answer for why God would send Moses then seek to kill him. Seems you are being willingly ignorant. :sigh: :2c:

Why do you think he sent Moses then tried to kill him?

God is more concerned about the minister than his ministry.  You cannot ignore the will of God with impunity, no matter who you, even rightly, think you are.  Though speculation, it seems possible he may have wanted to please his wife more than God.  God, knowing what was to be revealed in the future, that "circumcision is of the heart and not the flesh" was "seeking" to kill Moses for spurning His mandated Covenant cutting.  Relief came when obedience complied.  Remember, while relevant to us in our own unique tests, this is a peep-hole into God's intimacy with one specific man.  Again and again it is relevant what God has observed, "You thought I was altogether one such as your self."

In what is this answer supposed to benefit you?

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 09, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
:laughing7: I posed a thread, and it has run everywhere. The point of the post was wheat and tares. You have no answer to what the tares are except theories that they are the flesh, and that God will include them in the harvest.

No one is saying that tares will be harvested.  Tares will be destroyed.

QuoteIt is also no argument against my understanding of them to quote verses saying that all things were made by Jesus that were made. That is a fact.

PT: "The Darkness and his angels are not part of His creation, neither are the tares, the children of Satan and his angels"

PT: "Their spirit is of their father. He was not made."

"all things were made by Him"
PT: "He was not made"

"For by him were all things created"
PT: "He was not made"

"that are in heaven, and that are in earth"
Is Satan neither in heaven or earth?

"visible and invisible"
Is Satan neither visible nor invisible?

"whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers"
Is Satan not a throne, dominion, pricipality, or power?

"all things were created by him, and for him"
PT: "He was not made"

"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist"
Satan was not made so he always existed?

.
http://www.gotquestions.org/serpent-seed.html
----------------------------------------------------------

Question: "What is Serpent Seed doctrine?"

Answer:
Serpent seed doctrine is a belief based on poor biblical interpretation and superstition.
It is a primary doctrinal resource for those who want to use scripture to justify racial prejudice.

Serpent seed doctrine is also closely related to other erroneous beliefs such as the Christian Identity movement, and the Kenite doctrine.

Like many false beliefs, it has a built-in defense mechanism; that is, anyone who disagrees with it is accused of being a son of the serpent.

One of the most unfortunate problems with the serpent seed doctrine is that it so heavily relies on prejudice and warped biblical interpretation that it can be very difficult to rationally discuss.

Simply stated,
serpent seed doctrine teaches that the sin of Eve was not simple disobedience, but sexual contact with the serpent, and that Cain was the son of Eve and the devil.

Cain's descendants are, according to this idea, the sons of Satan, and this includes most any race or group that the serpent-seed-believer chooses to dislike.

This idea is rooted in superstitious beliefs, and is particularly popular with white supremacists and anti-Semites; the Unification Church also supports this idea.

Noted false prophets and false teachers such as Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel and William Branham espoused the idea.

Although an idea should not be criticized when it is wrongly applied, it is appropriate to condemn an idea when it logically leads to sin.
A philosophy that teaches that some races or people are universally Satanic, like the serpent seed doctrine, is one such philosophy.

Those who support serpent seed ideas cite many passages in the Bible as proof that their idea is correct.
Almost without exception, these "proofs" require an interpretation that is totally inappropriate to the context of the passage.

For example, Genesis 3:13 is often cited, with the claim that the word translated "beguiled" in the King James version really meant "seduced".

Context and scholarship would disagree.
Proverbs 30:20 metaphorically compares eating and sexual immorality; this is greatly overstated by the serpent-seed believer as proof that the Fall was sexual.

Other passages include Jude 1:14, and the parable of the tares in Matthew chapter 13.
Those who believe in the serpent seed doctrine teach that Jesus' description of the "children of the devil" in this parable is true in a biological sense; again, only one who is trying to force this belief into the Bible will see it this way, it is not naturally read out of scripture.

There are literally dozens of places in the Bible that this false idea has been wedged into; yet every single one requires a person to believe in the serpent seed idea beforehand.

Only by reading a passage and saying, "if you assume that the serpent seed doctrine is true, then this means..." can a person support this false philosophy. For this reason, arguing against the serpent seed doctrine can be difficult.

Those who believe it interpret scripture through a sort of "serpent seed lens", and are not likely to accept other interpretations, no matter how well supported by context and scholarship.

There are some basic questions and contradictions inherent to the serpent seed doctrine that can be used to demonstrate its lack of truth.
For example,
Galatians 3:28 clearly states that race and gender have no impact on our standing with God.
2 Peter 3:9 says that God wants everyone to be saved, not "everyone but the children of Cain."

Nowhere in scripture is anyone identified as a "Kenite," or condemned based on being from Cain's lineage.
Never are we warned about such people by the New Testament writers.
Also, there is the question of how or why such persons survived the flood.

The doctrine supposes that original sin was sexual, but cannot explain why the whole remainder of the Bible lays out a worldview where the original sin was disobedience, not sexuality.

This philosophy is most unfortunate in that it leads directly and logically to two main problems.
Racism is by far the worst;
believing that certain races are irredeemable has no positive application.

The only possible outcome of such a worldview is prejudice and bigotry. There is also a tendency to blow off critics of the serpent seed doctrine as being the very "Kenites" the philosophy believes in. Arnold Murray is particularly guilty of this abuse.

Fortunately for believers, God has given us a resource in scripture that can show us the truth. We need only read it with unbiased and open eyes to find true wisdom.

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 09, 2008, 01:54:28 AM
One last little addition, why would God tell Moses to go to help Israel in Egypt, and then try to kill him??

Exodus 4:21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

24And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.  

Are you saying there are two different Lords in the Old Testament?

It's interesting he calls Israel his firstborn son, when Jacob (Israel) was the second born.    :sigh:

Molly,

Does he refer to physical Israel being the first born son leaving Egypt (bondage) as a type for Jesus being raised from the dead releasing spiritual Israel from sins (death) bondage. The second born spiritual Israel receiving the blessing of life.

willieH:  Hi PT...  :cloud9:

continuing to avoid and WILLINGLY IGNORE, ...REASON:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 09, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
It is also no argument against my understanding of them to quote verses saying that all things were made by Jesus that were made. That is a fact.
Theproblem is that the Darkness and his angels were not "made". The tares bodies on the earth are made up of the elements which Jesus made. Their spirit is of their father. He was not made.

Name the Scripture dusty which says that "their SPIRIT is of their father", and that "he" (their father) was NOT "MADE"...  :dontknow:

And the Scripture which states the creation of the "tares" by their "father" (which YOU believe to be satan - making him a "creator" as well as a "destroyer" :rolleye: )

ALL THINGS is well, ...according to REASON dusty, ...ALL THINGS... You just avoid and WILLINGLY IGNORE, the Scriptures which note you to be incorrect (which are quite numereous in this thread), ...and site positions which ARE NOT FOUND in the Scripture such as:

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 09, 2008, 12:13:51 AMTheir spirit is of their father. He was not made

GOD is the FATHER of SPIRITS... This includes ALL entities which ARE SPIRITS...

(see CHB's last post to get specific verses which state this FACT, aside from Heb 12:9... Job 12:10 / Numb 27:16 & 16:22 )

Quote from: meerkat on May 09, 2008, 07:16:41 AM
Molly,

Does he refer to physical Israel being the first born son leaving Egypt (bondage) as a type for Jesus being raised from the dead releasing spiritual Israel from sins (death) bondage. The second born spiritual Israel receiving the blessing of life.

I like that.  I like those types of metaphors.

I think that physical Israel of the Old Testament walks out the physical walk in three dimensions that spiritual Israel walks out in the New Testament. I think you could find a one to one correlation for all of it, the physical to the spiritual.  It's easier for us to see it initially in the physical because that's where we start.


1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

30 "Forty years passed. Then an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush. This happened in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When Moses saw the bush, he was amazed. He went over for a closer look. There he heard the Lord's voice. 32 'I am the God of your fathers,' the Lord said. 'I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'—(Exodus 3:6) Moses shook with fear. He didn't dare to look.

33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals. The place you are standing on is holy ground. 34 I have seen my people beaten down in Egypt. I have heard their groans. I have come down to set them free. Now come. I will send you back to Egypt.'—(Exodus 3:5,7,8,10)

35 "This is the same Moses the two men of Israel would not accept. They had said, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' But God himself sent Moses to rule the people of Israel and set them free. He spoke to Moses through the angel who had appeared to him in the bush. 36 So Moses led them out of Egypt. He did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea, and for 40 years in the desert.

37 "This is the same Moses who spoke to the people of Israel. 'God will send you a prophet,' he said. 'He will be like me. He will come from your own people.'—(Deuteronomy 18:15) 38 Moses was with the Israelites in the desert. He was with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai. Moses was with our people of long ago. He received living words to pass on to us.

39 "But our people refused to obey Moses. They would not accept him. In their hearts, they wished they were back in Egypt. 40 They told Aaron, 'Make us a god who will lead us. This fellow Moses led us out of Egypt. But we don't know what has happened to him!'—(Exodus 32:1) 41 That was the time they made a statue to be their god. It looked like a calf. They brought sacrifices to it. They were glad because of what they had made with their own hands. 42 But God turned away from them. He left them to worship the sun, moon and stars. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets. There it says,
   " 'People of Israel, did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
      for 40 years in the desert?
43 You lifted up the place where Molech was worshiped.
      You lifted up the star of your god Rephan.
      You made statues of them to worship.
   So I will send you away from your country.' —(Amos 5:25-27)
      God sent them to Babylon and even farther.

44 "Long ago our people had with them in the desert the holy tent where the tablets of the covenant were kept. Moses had made the holy tent as God had commanded him. It was made like the pattern he had seen. 45 Our people received the tent from God. They brought it with them when they took the land of Canaan. God drove out the nations that were in their way. At that time Joshua was Israel's leader.

   "The tent remained in the land until David's time. 46 David was blessed by God. So David asked if he could build a house for the God of Jacob. 47 Instead, it was Solomon who built it for him.

48 "But the Most High God does not live in houses made by human hands. As God says through the prophet,

49 " 'Heaven is my throne.
      The earth is under my control.
   What kind of house will you build for me?

   says the Lord.
      Where will my resting place be?

50 Didn't my hand make all these things?' —(Isaiah 66:1,2)

51 "You people! You won't obey! You are stubborn! You won't listen! You are just like your people of long ago! You always oppose the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your people didn't try to hurt? They even killed those who told about the coming of the Blameless One. And now you have handed him over to his enemies. You have murdered him. 53 The law you received was brought by angels. But you haven't obeyed it."


54 When the Sanhedrin heard this, they became very angry. They ground their teeth at Stephen. 55 But he was full of the Holy Spirit. He looked up to heaven and saw God's glory. He saw Jesus standing at God's right hand. 56 "Look!" he said. "I see heaven open. The Son of Man is standing at God's right hand."
57 When the Sanhedrin heard this, they covered their ears. They yelled at the top of their voices. They all rushed at him. 58 They dragged him out of the city. They began to throw stones at him to kill him. The witnesses took off their coats. They placed them at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59 While the members of the Sanhedrin were throwing stones at Stephen, he prayed. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit," he said. 60 Then he fell on his knees. He cried out, "Lord! Don't hold this sin against them!" When he had said this, he died.

--Acts 7

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 09, 2008, 04:06:42 AM
:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: ALL I use is scripture, with understanding. I get back feel good interpetations, and the total rejections of the sayings of Jesus.
It does not bother me, I'm used to that.
I noticed you had no easy answer for why God would send Moses then seek to kill him. Seems you are being willingly ignorant. :sigh: :2c:

i dont see this saying he tried to kill moses???

even so, what does it prove?? NOTHING:

Deu 32:39 See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.



Exd 4:23   and I say unto thee, Send away My son, and he doth serve Me; and -- thou dost refuse to send him away -- lo, I am slaying thy son, thy first-born.' 
Exd 4:24   And it cometh to pass in the way, in a lodging place, that Jehovah meeteth him, and seeketh to put him to death; 
Exd 4:25   and Zipporah taketh a flint, and cutteth off the foreskin of her son, and causeth [it] to touch his feet, and saith, `Surely a bridegroom of blood [art] thou to me;' 
Exd 4:26   and He desisteth from him: then she said, `A bridegroom of blood,' in reference to the circumcision. 
Exd 4:27   And Jehovah saith unto Aaron, `Go to meet Moses into the wilderness;' and he goeth, and meeteth him in the mount of God, and kisseth him, 



i just dont see it as i follow the subject??

ol well

chuckt

In the parable or illustration of the "wheat and weeds"(tares, King James Bible) at Matthew 13:24-30, Jesus likens the "kingdom of the heavens" to a "man that sowed fine seed in his field" and which was later 'oversowed with weeds in among the wheat' by an "enemy", with him providing an explanation at verses 36-43. This parable or illustration is also interconnected with the illustrations of the "mustard grain" at verses 31,32, the ' woman who mixed leaven in with her flour '(meal, King James Bible) at verse 33, and with the "dragnet", at verses 47-50.

In the fall of 29 C.E., not long after Jesus baptism, he began to make known the "good news of the kingdom", saying: "The appointed time has been fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn near."(Mark 1:14) And over the course of his 3 1/2 year ministry, he repetitively emphasized the "kingdom", a heavenly government, using many an illustration to teach regarding it's truths and that God conceived, following Adam's rebellion in the Garden of Eden.(Gen 3:15) The unveiling or revealing of the "kingdom" began to occur over a period of some 4000 years. But with the arrival of Jesus as the Christ in 29 C.E., the "kingdom" was now explained with the use of illustrations. Thus, Jesus established truths concerning the "kingdom", with those accepting these truths being the "fine seed".(Matt 13:24)

However, in the parable or illustration of the "wheat and weeds", Jesus expected a change regarding the "kingdom". In his illustration, he says that following the sowing of the "fine seed", the "sons of the kingdom"(Matt 13:38), by the "Son of man" Jesus Christ over 3 1/2 years (Matt 13:37), he then says that "while men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds (Greek zizanion, tares, King James Bible, "sons of the wicked one"[Matt 13:38]) in among the wheat, and left."(Matt 13:25)

Jesus most likely referred to the poisonous bearded darnel (Lolium temulentum), which it's poisonous properties are believed to stem from a fungus growing within it's seeds and closely resembles wheat until maturity. At this time, it can readily be distinguished from wheat by it's smaller black seeds. This, together with the fact that the roots of these "weeds" become entwined with the wheat, would make it most inadvisable to pull up the "weeds" at an early stage.Thus, in giving direction to the "slaves of the household", the "master" told them to let both the "wheat" and "weeds" grow together, "that by no chance while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them."(Matt 13:29,30) Thus, a considerable period of time would pass until it was time to ' collect the weeds '.

Who though, is the "enemy" that sowed "weeds" in among the "wheat" ? Jesus identifies him as "the Devil". Thus Satan, after Jesus had laid out the principles and foundation of the "kingdom" while on the earth, began to infiltrate the "kingdom", using "weeds" or "sons of the wicked one." How ? The apostle Paul, in giving parting counsel to the older men from Ephesus, said: "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."(Acts 20:29,30)

Hence, not long after, from within the the Christian congregation, there arose men ("weeds", "tares") who began to speak "twisted things", distorting the teachings of Jesus Christ. These professed to follow Jesus, but instead were counterfeit Christians that began to grow within the congregation that Jesus had established, even while the apostles were alive.

The apostle Peter wrote to fellow Christians, in about the year 64 C.E., that "there came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owners that brought them,...Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with coventousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words."(2 Pet 2:1-3)

Peter, was thus warning true Christians that there would be a "falling away" or apostasizing (Greek a·po·sta·si´a, literally "to stand away from", and has the sense of "desertion, abandonment or rebellion." [Ac 21:21]), of the teachings of Jesus. From within the Christian congregation would this occur, for both Paul said that "from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things", and Peter said that "false teachers (will be) among you" that will "quietly bring in destructive sects". Especially following the death of the last apostle, John, in about 100 C.E., did this "falling away" or apostasizing begin to flourish, as Jesus said, "while men (the apostles) were sleeping". There was now practically no one to restrain or hold back this wave of apostasy.

The apostle John, in about 96 C.E., wrote: "Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour."(1 John 2:18)  Hence, even at that "last hour", true Christianity was being overtaken by the "antichrists"(meaning "against [or instead of] Christ)", "weeds", counterfeit Christians.

Within a period of less than 300 years from the time that Jesus established the Christian congregation, the wheat field of Christianity had been overrun with the "weeds" of apostate antichrists to the point where Constantine the Great (himself incriminated in the murder of no less than seven close friends and relatives) figured in events that led to the development of a state religion disguised as "Christianity", with the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.

Hence, there arose a "leavened" or apostate Christianity, one that is corrupted.(Matt 13:33) It is flourishing as the churches of Christendom, for just as the "mustard grain" grew into a "tree", the individual religious organizations (churches), that profess to be Christian, are like the "birds of heaven", with each one finding "lodging among (Christendom's) branches".(Matt 13:32)

A prophesy by Isaiah directs one's attention that true Christianity, though infiltrated with "weeds" during the course of over 1900 years (' growing together until the harvest',Matt 13:30), from the days of the apostles, would once again be reestablished in the "final part of the days", our time period. Isaiah was inspired to write: "it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."(Isaiah 2:2-4, American Standard Version)

During the "latter days", our time period now, angels will soon ' collect the weeds and burn them with fire ', these to be destroyed (Matt 13:39,40), during which time "the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."(Matt 13:43) Hence, true Christianity would once again flourish in these "latter days", even though "weeds", counterfeit Christians, are still abounding until God's time to have these "collected and burned with fire" during the "conclusion of a system of things".(Matt 13:40, "end of the world", King James Bible)

Thus, Jesus fully expected true Christianity to be corrupted and gave several illustrations that showed this. We are now living during the "harvest" or "conclusion of a system of things" and thus God is soon to destroy the "weeds" or "tares", counterfeit Christians and whereby true Christianity would be clearly discernible for honest-hearted persons.

 :laughing7:THIS is not the harvest. :2c:

PT

I agree. This is not the harvest. The first fruits will be at his second coming and the general harvest at the end of the millenium and after the judgement.

Jesus himself is the firstfruits:


1 Corinthians 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.


Paul talks about himself having the firstfruits of the Spirit, and James says the apostles are 'a kind' of firstfruit.


Romans 8:23
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.


James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.


Thus, the firstfruits have already come it seems (or in the process now), and next, the harvest:


1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.


But I like to think of myself giving to God the best part of my energy, intellect, and emotion (as I think many of us do) as a type of firstfruits offering--



9 He brought us to this place and gave us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey; 10 and now I bring the firstfruits of the soil that you, O LORD, have given me." Place the basket before the LORD your God and bow down before him. 11 And you and the Levites and the aliens among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household.--Deut 26

 Yep. When He comes, those who are His in this age, and then comes the millineum, the harvest, wheat to the barn, tares to the fire. Just the way He said it would happen.
Terrible events are on the verge of happening on the earth, we see the beginnings of them now, the sealing of the saints is nearly complete. Redemption is drawing near.

Malachi 3:17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

  18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

On the other hand, there is a cyclical quality to the harvest. This metaphor is used often. God uses the farming metaphor because he is growing something.  Adam, his first son, is a husbandman, a farmer himself, originally created to dress and keep the garden of God.

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
--Gen 2

In the sense of a cyclical harvest, this does not just happen once at the end of the age, but is a continuous process of planting, growing, and harvesting.  The harvesting, this harvesting for the kingdom of God,  began during the ministry of Jesus.


35Do you not say, 'Four months more and then the harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. 36Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together.--John 4


We are 'harvested,' then, as soon as we believe, crossing over (translated) from death to life.  Jesus is the Lord of the harvest, and we, the believers, are his angels harvesting in the field--the sower and reaper rejoicing together!


Luke 10:2
He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 12, 2008, 04:56:05 PM
Yep. When He comes, those who are His in this age, and then comes the millineum, the harvest, wheat to the barn, tares to the fire. Just the way He said it would happen.
Terrible events are on the verge of happening on the earth, we see the beginnings of them now, the sealing of the saints is nearly complete. Redemption is drawing near

Terrible events have been "on the verge of happening" for THOUSANDS of YEARS dusty!  :mshock:  :wacko2: 

Are you so blind... :cool:  as to not see this?  MAN has been RAGING against MAN since the BEGINNING! 

Your observation continues with more TIME oriented observations... :violin:  Instead of, in the SPIRIT, beholding SPIRITUAL and ETERNAL principles...

Those with the message of the Gospel have thought to be in the END TIMES since the beginning of its presentation... PAUL stated (believing himself a LIVING witness to our redemption): 

(1 Thess 4:16-17)  16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first... 17 then ...WE... which are alive and remain shall be caught up with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord...

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 12, 2008, 04:56:05 PMMalachi 3:17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

  18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

These verses say nothing to support your DESTRUCTIVE message dusty...

As you continue to clip a verse here and there in an attempt to establish your negative  doctrine, adding into the mix, a pinch of NON Scriptural terminology (MILLENIUM), to merge with your recipe of SELECTIVITY, and DEFEAT... trying to depict GOD as are HUMANS... SELFISH, PARTIAL, and UNREASONABLE...

Conveniently leaving out quoting this verse in the prior context: 

12 and ALL NATIONS shall call you BLESSED; for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith YHVH of Hosts...

and THIS ONE:

15 And NOW we call the proud happy; yea, they that WORK WICKEDNESS are set up, yea they that TEMPT GOD are EVEN DELIVERED...

Noting UNBIBLICAL/Theological sidetracks, such as the "MILLENIUM" (religious/theological term invented by men)...  in and endeavor to establish your self-inclusive, poppycock... :rolleye:

No vision that NOW is the DAY ...OF... SALVATION... (making it future)...

No answers to questions which are asked... just more ranting...  :blahgreen: :blah:

No ability to discuss...  :thumbdown:

PeaCE    :angelharp:

In  ...willieH     :shakepoint:

The millineum is the resurection on the earth of the just and the unjust. A thousand years from start to finish.
Molly the harvest is not now, but is at the end of the age. The final thousand years.

Matthew 13:47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.  

49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,  

50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.  

51Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

52Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

PeaceTroll,

If you looked it up you'd discover the Greek original word Millenium is pasted over is plural, unlike the English one:  "Thousands."

Yeah, you don't discuss or reply.  I've repeatedly put before you clear scriptural facts that contradict your doctrines and you do not respond.

The next event (possibly happening already for who is in the realms to know?) on the prophetic calendar, the beginning of Tabernacles, is the Barley Harvest.  That has no specific date on the calendar but is determined by the maturity of the barley when it had enough substance to roast and not burn up in the fire.  Barley in Hebrew means "beard."  We speak in English of the "whiskers' the grain head has.  We don't acquire a beard until we are old enough.  It was animal's and poor people's food, so illustrating humility.  It represents the sons of God who have been tried as though by fire and have obtained actual substance of the presence of God and are Mature enough in His nature with true lowliness of heart to be harvested, which is to be called up into a higher dimension in Christ.  This is a thing of the Glory beginning to be made manifest.  Wicked men contesting this cannot prevail.  The tribulation that is coming we will bring, "having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when our obedience is fulfilled."  The wicked will be ashes under our feet in that day.

35Do you not say, It is still four months until harvest time comes? Look! I tell you, raise your eyes and observe the fields and see how they are already white for harvesting.

--John 4:35



"white"

G3022
λευκός
leukos
lyoo-kos'
From λύκη lukē ("light"); white: - white.



The fields are already white for harvesting.  What did Jesus mean by this?  What harvest is he talking about?

The first harvest of the year is the barley harvest.  This happens at the time of passover.  The barley ripens first of the grains, before the wheat.  The passover, the barley harvest, the feast of unleavened bread, and the sheaf offering are all bundled together.


5On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover.

    6On the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.

    7On the first day you shall have a holy "calling together;" you shall do no servile or laborious work on that day.

    8But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days; on the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall do no servile or laborious work on that day.

    9And the Lord said to Moses,

    10Tell the Israelites, When you have come into the land I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest.

    11And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, that you may be accepted; on the next day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it [before the Lord].

    12You shall offer on the day when you wave the sheaf a male lamb a year old without blemish for a burnt offering to the Lord.--Lev 23



The firstfruits of the grains, the first crop to ripen in the spring,  is the barley.  It is said this was the staple of the poor and the animals, the poor man's wheat.

Matthew 5:3
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Then what makes the fields white?  At the same time that the barley ripens,  the flax is in bud. We see this in exodus 9 where 'bolled' refers to the white bud of the flax --occurring at the same time as the barley is ready for harvest ('in the ear').   It is from flax that the linen of the priests are made.

Exodus 9:31
And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was bolled.


Leviticus 16:32
And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:


This 'white harvest' then is the harvest of  the firstfruits sons of God, harvested at passover, when Jesus was crucified and then resurrected from the dead, the firstfruits of them that slept, the firstborn of many brothers.  These are those who put on the garment of Christ, presented as a sheaf offering to God the Father, a promise of what is to come.



1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


http://www.allcanadaphotos.com/index.cfm?/imagedetails&imgid=5875682&extintcode=0

 Very good Molly.

As for argueing about scriptural beliefs and interpetations, I listen to what Jesus says, and what backs what He said, and disputeings about all manner of things that are supposed to be happening now that obviously according to Jesus are not I do not respond to.
Whether one believes what I record is not a problem for me.
Every one's faith shall be tried to see what gold is contained in it. If one has little, even what he thought he had will be taken from him, meaning proven wrong.
One of us will be proven more correct at the judgement seat of Christ. I trust what I know, as I see you have put your trust in what you believe. We'll see what His judgement is.

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

willieH: Hi reFORMer... :hithere:

Quote from: reFORMer on May 13, 2008, 08:32:36 AM
PeaceTroll,

Yeah, you don't discuss or reply.  I've repeatedly put before you clear scriptural facts that contradict your doctrines and you do not respond.

This is because there are so many holes in his "theology", that he is UNABLE to respond.

He lives in his own "spiritual" world... and only acknowledges ones that might in the slightest, agree with his points... forsaking and IGNORING any proofs and propositions which come against him.

I have been with TM over 3yrs and PeaceTroll (who was once dustphrophet and others), has "discussed" in this same manner as long as I have known him...  :dontknow:

The ONLY REASON that I post replies to him, is for the sake of others reading, that they might not follow him into his pit...  :cloud9:

Noting in those answers, his refusal to discuss.  That way they can observe his method...  :happygrin:

PeaCE  :drummer:

In  ...willieH   :giveheart:

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Hi Peace, I'm not disagreeing with you, particularly,  but I think there are different harvests for different groups of people.  I realize you are talking about the wheat and the tares, but this dropped out of the discussion for me as we were talking about it. 

I used to think there was something mysterious and complicated about being an overcomer, but now I see that this is simple really, --an overcomer is one who believes.  Everything points to this group as the barley harvest, the sheaf offering, the passover, the Lamb of God, the royal priesthood.  After Christ, the overcomers are the firstfruits.  Or maybe a better way to put it is that it is the  resurrection of Christ in a person which renders him an overcomer, or, as Paul puts it, 'to live is Christ.'

And, if you believe something, you will act on your belief, thus the all the metaphors about bearing fruit.

The overcomers--the barley harvest--the first of the resurrection.


Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 What, then Molly, is the second death? What is it's result?

As concerns Christ's reserection in you, if you are in Christ, you have died to the world, and have no works. You can not sin, because your human body is accounted dead because it is carnal. You have the ernest of the Spirit, not the fullness.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

No one is changed yet, that will happen at the time appointed.

1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Untill that happens we are in the condition Paul spoke of.

Romans 7:15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

1DO YOU not know, brethren--for I am speaking to men who are acquainted with the Law--that legal claims have power over a person only for as long as he is alive?


4Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.

5When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by [what] the Law [makes sin] were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs, in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh), so that we bore fruit for death.
    6But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].

--Romans 7



1THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.

    2For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.

--Romans 8

"The law of the Spirit of life"---Don't you just love that?

That is truly inspired.

When looking at anything--ask,-- is this in keeping with the law of the Spirit of life?

:bgdance:

Molly,

That is what the judgment from the Mercy Throne is according to, "The law of the Spirit of life and liberty in Christ Jesus."  This reveals that those things according to "the law of sin unto death" in so much taught as how God judges or what is coming cannot be right.

---James Rohde

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 13, 2008, 10:19:50 PM
What, then Molly, is the second death? What is it's result?

PT  

You asked Molly this but would just like to say that my understanding of the second death is that as the first death and resurrection are totally related  -  1st death then life,   the lake of fire is the second death, and that is when the dead of the second resurrection (the resurrection of the damned) are raised. I believe that they are raised to life from the lake of fire when they believe, repent and submit.  

Reformer, could you explain that a little more clearly to me?  I don't understand what you're saying.


PT--

...that they might obtain a better resurrection..

--Hebrews 11:35

Luke 10:2
He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.




"workers"

G2040
ἐργάτης
ergatēs
er-gat'-ace
From G2041; a toiler; figuratively a teacher: - labourer, worker (-men).

dead thread.

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 13, 2008, 10:19:50 PM

What, then Molly, is the second death?

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Quote from: Peacetroll on May 13, 2008, 10:19:50 PM

What is it's result?

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Praise our just and merciful God!

Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Just what is this Lake of Fire that will destroy death, pain and suffering?

Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.

Peace to you,

RM  

 Why have you all made Christ a liar by your posts? How CAN you call what He said plainly untrue? Like this below.

Jojn 10: 22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

No reply but Duhhhh?? :sigh:

PT
For mine ...

For this Cause He came for that which was LOST....Amazing Grace comes to mind.

Yet again we see those under law ,..Still carnal in their thoughts...for ever learning but never percieving, just how many times do scripture show us this....

We have all been DEAD, Born dead if you will but made alive BY HIM in us.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,



athou this thread shares the theme of Goats , its plain to see whats lost ..
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1484.0
Blessings
Taffy

Taffy, what was lost was the whole Adamic race of MAN, even Jesus's saints, those born from above, were here in the valley of the shadow of Death with no way out.
No one could deliver his own soul from the Darkness for all fall short of the Glory of God, which is in Jesus Christ.
As the prophet said:

Isaiah 26:17Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

18We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

The Lord knew always that He would have to deliver His family, His body from Death.

Isaiah 59:15Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

16And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.  

17For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

And so He came and delivered us, by perfectly obeying ALL the laws and statutes even to the thought of evil.

1 Peter 1:19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Vengence is the Lord's, against the Darkness, his agents, the angels who left their former estate,  and his children the tares, who are called the generation of vipers.
Vipers are poisionous, and deaf and can hear nothing.

Romans 12:19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

The Saints of the Lord are scattered throughout the nations of the world, not knowing what tribe they are of. What is called Israel is not Israel, but the saints are.

15Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?

16Doubtless thou,thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not:   O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  

17O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

18The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.

19We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.

15Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

16And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

17For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

18According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

---Isaiah 59



"therefore his arm"

H2220
זרעה    זרועה    זרע    זרוע
zerôa‛ zerôa‛  zerô‛âh  zerô‛âh
zer-o'-ah (1,2), zer-o-aw' (3,4)
From H2232; the arm (as stretched out), or (of animals) the foreleg; figuratively force: - arm, + help, mighty, power, shoulder, strength.



H2232
זרע
zâra‛
zaw-rah'
A primitive root; to sow; figuratively to disseminate, plant, fructify: - bear, conceive seed, set with, sow (-er), yield.







19So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

20And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

--Isaiah 59



[thy]"seed"

H2233
זרע
zera‛
zeh'-rah
From H2232; seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity: -  X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time.





"Redeemer"

H1350
גּאל
gâ'al
gaw-al'
A primitive root, to redeem (according to the Oriental law of kinship), that is, to be the next of kin (and as such to buy back a relative's property, marry his widow, etc.): -  X in any wise, X at all, avenger, deliver, (do, perform the part of near, next) kinsfolk (-man), purchase, ransom, redeem (-er), revenger.

Thanks WillieH -- I'd known that the wheat and tares were within us but couldn't decrypt some of the spiritual symbols correctly --

Thing of beauty!

Joseph

OK here is my 2 cents: Sorry its so long, but Thought I might as well jump in with both feet, and cover a lot of territory:

True and False Christianity...Both have been produced by the Bible.



Christians will answer that God, preserved the bible for us, and it is a miracle.



I have an opinion, based upon my miniscule understanding of Scripture...Everything is contrast (light, dark, evil, good), or it's to express God's glory...



The contrast in Christianity is the true church, the ecklesia -vs- the large visible body of people on every church corner. The wheat, and the tare. The good seed, and the bad seed. The Pharisee, and Jesus. This modern day replay of the life of Jesus in HIS body plural is so close, that it could even fool the elect....



So how does God establish the tare? It all started with two trees. The tree of life, and the tree of knowledge. We see the essence of these two trees, in many forms. One is wheat and tare.



They exist and are sustained by the visible, tangible, written word (Bible). They find themselves at home with the text, they can control it, they build laws, rules, and doctrines, they also remove God, who is Spirit out of their midst by these same issues of control.



While most of the members of this group are wonderful people and well intentioned, they are still like the Pharisees of old. They search the scriptures daily, but won't come to Christ, that they might have life.



The true body, the ecklesia exist by "the word", the hidden walk, knowing the masters voice.



This has got to be the common denominator throughout time, since many could not read, and the few that could read, didn't have a copy of the bible.



Yet the Ecklesia flourished, in the dark ages, and in countries that never allowed sacred texts, like China, and Russia...



Today both flourish, and this thing called church, or churchianity, has said to all, we represent God. But they do not, and God is getting ready to show this world, his true ecklesia....God's mercy and the world demand such an event, to rid God, of the stain, caused by all the TV preachers, and all the pain caused to so many in the name of God.



Now of course many may disagree, and I could be wrong, BUT I don't think so, and these are simply my opinions.



I think God is separating HIS people "The Ecclesia from this thing called church, which is churchianity.



He is building his kingdom, it is on the inside. That is what Jesus says.



There is no way for light and darkness to fellowship together and there is NO way all those people in all these churches are truly born again via an encounter with Christ. That encounter must take place...



So there is no way they can fellowship with one another. You might as well go to a Safeway store and try and do church with all the people there.



As in my sheep hear my voice, man shall not live by bread alone, the word of the Lord came unto, peter rise and eat. You see what I mean



"The word of the Lord" "The scriptures" can become a fresh word to you, but, we can not use the terms "The word" and "the bible" interchangeably.



The point I'm making is, there is a lot written in the NT about hearing, hardly anything about reading.



Everything written in the bible was spoken, before it was written. Genesis was spoken, and then written by Moses.



We must come to a common denominator, for people to receive Christ, the message, or to experience Christianity, and it cannot be the bible.



Still I love the scriptures, and they are true, they are God inspired. They have just been elevated to a place where they have taken the place of God, in many circles today.



Also to express my point, do this: Every place in the scriptures where it says, "the word" or "the word came unto" replace every instance with "The bible"....



It just will not make sense... As far as people studying "The word" vs studying "The scriptures"



I see a big difference between the two. One is heard, one is read. Many can read, few can hear. One is always spoken, and one is written, but can be made alive to you, and become a spoken word.



Thus we have interchanged the two, elevating "The bible" above God, and the leading of the Spirit, and "The Word"...



I wonder, could we say that we love the scriptures, and that they are inspired, but God never meant for us to live by them, but instead by the Spirit of promise, leading us into all truth?



We would have two types of church. Those led by the Spirit, and those seeing and leading only on "The book".I love the scriptures, and I have several bibles. BUT we must not elevate the bible above God, and I'm afraid that is what many churches (people) have done.



Concerning experience:

I agree God has a basic foundation of truth; His character, TRUE experiences, and TRUE interpretation, go hand in hand.



God has asked people in the Old Testament, to do / say something's, that the present day Christian institution would condemn...



We cannot put God in a box, and try and make Him acceptable to our doctrines.



The "Word" and "The bible" are not one and the same...



The common denominator throughout time Has been God reaching out to man, possibly by a sunset, or a person "LED" of the spirit witnesses to you, or God speaks to you, but God is not at all times used the bible. Of course there are times that the Spirit moves someone, through the use of Scripture, but that is not my point.



What do we say of the first 3000 yrs of man, until Moses wrote the torah, where was God? He was doing what he has always done, personally interacting with man.



The faith we have is more than intellectual knowledge, it IS LIFE...Two trees were in the garden; today don't we face that same thing? "Knowledge" OR "Life"

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 09, 2011, 11:14:57 PM
Hi rodm,

Quote from: rodm on April 09, 2011, 10:57:20 PM
So how does God establish the tare? It all started with two trees. The tree of life, and the tree of knowledge. We see the essence of these two trees, in many forms. One is wheat and tares.

Wheat and tares are part of the same plant. So I think humans are like the plant. Good but with (sometimes) evil thoughts. Just like the tree of knowledge of good=wheat and evil=tares.
Just a thought :2c:

Wheat and tares are two different plants actually, resembling each other until the plants are fully grown.

I know this is an old topic, and has been fairly beat to death, BUT, as a former subscriber of the Seedline Doctrine, I want to say a thing or two.  I say again, I used to believe much as Peacetroll seems to, but at some point I gave it up as false.  A Christian minister whose newsletter I used to get also came out of the mindset, and laid out all the problems and dangers inherent in the seedline assumptions.  The minister in question is James W. Bruggeman, and to get his name right, I pulled a random issue of his newsletter "Kingdom Journal."  The lead essay of this particular issue was part two of three of "Eve: Did She? or Didn't She."  That is the very essay in which he laid out the problems and dangers.  Folks, seedline theology takes you into some dangerous theological [theo-illogical?] territory!  I would advise any of you not to delve into it.

Peacetroll sez:
"The son of perdition, Cain and a wife,were on the ark with Noah. Seven of the clean, two of the unclean. Noah being the eigth clean person.

Cain and a wife were on the arc with Noah. Noah had seven clean persons and he was called the eigth clean person meaning Noah. He also had two of the unclean, meaning Cain. If this were not so there could have been no kenites[son's of Cain] after the flood. They attached themselves to the tribe of Judah, and became jews. Look it up. Research it.

I don't say anything that isn't backed up with two or three scriptural witnesses. I get back answers that have one witness here and there and most times none to back what the argument against what I post is."

Laz sez:
Pardon me, but this "Cain on the Ark" idea is not backed up with ANY scriptural witnesses!  Peacetroll, where did you get the idea?  Look at the Book of Jasher, chapter II, which states that Cain was killed by Lamech.  The Book of Genesis does not contradict the Jasher account, so I accept it as is.  BTW, the Book of Jasher is mentioned twice in the Old Testament, so there is the double witness Peacetroll requires.  Owned!

Now, since Cain was killed before the great flood, and could not, therefore have been on the Ark, I will state boldly that the Kenites could not have been descendants of Cain.  They must have been descendants of Ken.  Simple.  The only way for the Cainite line to have been preserved was for one of the daughters of Noah's sons being a Cainite, but Genesis, and the rest of the Bible, is silent on this issue as far as I know.
 

I mention for those not acquainted with this seed of Satan doctrine, that it has some popularity with those who believe not saveable "junk" people can be racially identified.

Quote from: reFORMer on August 30, 2012, 07:10:03 AM
I mention for those not acquainted with this seed of Satan doctrine, that it has some popularity with those who believe not saveable "junk" people can be racially identified.

An authentic Christian does not believe in "junk" people, right?

I think you are wrong there LS.
I've seen Christian interpretations that the Bible is for white people only.
Calvinism teaches the majority of people are junk people which are predestined for the garbage incinerator.

 PEOPLE ARE FOREVER USING A CHEATING PAIR OF SCALES...WITH GENEROUS PORTIONS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND GRACE DOLED OUT

  FOR THEMSELVES...AND WRATH DOLED OUT TO OTHERS.

  WITH THE SAME JUDGEMENT YE JUDGE..YE SHALL BE JUDGED

   THOSE 'DOCTRINES" ARE BUT DOCTRINES OF DEVILS..OFFSPRING OF VIPERS

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 30, 2012, 05:13:45 PM
I think you are wrong there LS.
I've seen Christian interpretations that the Bible is for white people only.
Calvinism teaches the majority of people are junk people which are predestined for the garbage incinerator.

Oh please. 

SHOW ME one modern Christian church that says for white people only.

Good grief!

I bet there's one where Card lives. I'm not even joking. Maybe more than one. I've never heard of anything like where she lives... it's crazy.

Can't locate the post on this forum; but it was posted in my early days on TM. But I found a few links that at least point to racial thoughts.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_seed
Adherents of the white supremacist theology known as Two-Seedline Christian Identity hold that white people are descendants of Adam and are hence the chosen people of God. The Jewish people are said to be descendants of Cain and thus of Satan. This belief was developed by Wesley A. Swift, Conrad Gaard, Dan Gayman[28][29] and William Potter Gale among others.[30] The opposing faction is called One-Seedline Christian Identity and holds that all people are descended from Adam, but only Aryans (here meaning Northern Europeans) are truly God's people.[1][2][31][32]

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http://www.wildernesschurch.com/articles/TwoSeedsHeresy.html

Before we get into exposing this false doctrine as the heresy it is, I will layout the basic points of the belief. The doctrine of the two seeds is an important teaching in the Christian Identity movement who holds the belief that the White Race are the descendants of Israel and that the gospel message is only for them. And also, those who claim to be Jews today though white, are not true Israelites but actual descendants of the devil.
.........
Non-White Races are "primate races" which existed before Adam
The White descendants of Abel are the true Israelites

Non-White Races are "primate races" which existed before Adam

These groups of "sub-human" people have no soul and do not need salvation

That there is a great "Jewish Conspiracy" to steal true Israel's heritage from them

Since the Gospel is only for "White Israelites" they believe that the "Gentiles" of the New Testament were really members of the lost Tribes of Israel

The Church of God is composed of Whites only - thus the "Christian Identity" movement

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Read the rest. Google "Serpent Seed". But I think the above is enough support for my claim....
The doctrine can be summarized as: Jesus came for humans. Every non white is an animal.....

Dipsinsationalism is a stronghold of racism.  Taking up an identity and judging Divine qualification by racial status is nullified by the undeniable counter truth of how God's chosen people are identified.  He gives them the Holy Spirit.  That defines and qualifies who are the chosen of God:  He gives them the Holy Spirit.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 30, 2012, 05:13:45 PM
I think you are wrong there LS.
I've seen Christian interpretations that the Bible is for white people only.
Calvinism teaches the majority of people are junk people which are predestined for the garbage incinerator.

Um, I think that's why I said "authentic." 

As to salvation and going into the Kingdom, we are all equal.  As to rank in that Kingdom, I think we will not be equal - we have the 144,000 and the bride of Christ for instance, and I believe that all Israelites (the real kind) will make up the bride.  I think the Bible hints broadly that all will not be equal in the Kingdom.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 31, 2012, 04:58:18 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 30, 2012, 05:13:45 PM
I think you are wrong there LS.
I've seen Christian interpretations that the Bible is for white people only.
Calvinism teaches the majority of people are junk people which are predestined for the garbage incinerator.

Um, I think that's why I said "authentic."

Define authentic and/or Christian.
Why are those wacko's less authentic Christians than many many other wacko denominations?

He probably means the true sheep who hear their Shepherd's voice and follow Him wherever He goes vs. those who only say Lord, Lord, but don't do what He says.

 WHEN HE SAY'S 'I DON'T KNOW YOU'   IT ALSO MEANS THEY DON'T KNOW HIM.  AND WHOEVER HAS THE SON HAS THE FATHER..AND VICEVERSA

  AND SO..IT IS AN OFFSPRING OF VIPER RELIGIOUS SPIRIT THAT IS LIKE THE SAME THAT WAS ON THE PHARISEE'S AND SADUCEES.

  AND SUCH AS THOSE PROMOTE DOCTRINES OF DEMONS/DEVILS[LIE'S] IN GOD'S NAME.

   THEY THINK THEY DO A SERVICE FOR GOD

   THE LAWLESS ONE DWELLS IN THEIR HEART[ROYAL LAW..LOVE GOD,LOVE YOUR BROTHER AS YOURSELF]  THEY CLAIM TO LOVE GOD..

   OF WHOM THEY HAVEN'T SEEN AND DON'T KNOW..BUT FAIL TO LOVE THEIR BROTHER..WHOM THEY HAVE SEEN[SEE GOOD SAMARITAN PARABLE]

   HATERS AND DESPIZERS..THEY BECOME DELUSIONAL AND PUFFED UP. ARROGANCE PROVERBS 21;4 HAUGHTY EYES AND A PROUD HEART,

  THE LAMP OF THE WICKED ARE SIN.

Quote from: lomarah on August 31, 2012, 07:20:30 PM
He probably means the true sheep who hear their Shepherd's voice and follow Him wherever He goes vs. those who only say Lord, Lord, but don't do what He says.

In that case why use the word genuine?
There are only 2 groups. Christians and others.  Sheep of His flock and sheep of the other flock.

Hi Peacetroll if you have anything to do with this site right now. :friendstu:

I will take the challenge of what you believe in the intepretation of the wheat and the tares.

I simply believe as you do the wheat are what you say they are, they have beeen predetermined before the foundation of the world this is the firstfruits of the harvest, those called to be kings and priest for our God with jesus Christ, the tares are the imitations, by their fruits you shall know them?

At the end of time he gathers those for the lake of fire, so I will not say that Ephesians 2 has anything to do with it for those who have been set free from darkness were already the wheat, predestined.

So where is this all leading us, I saythe obvious that the tares will be gathered up and burned with fire, and I ask you for what purpose will they be burned with fire? This is wherre i believe the appropiate teaching of UR should have been explained that the fire of God id the refining fie for God doesnot wish any to perish but come to the knowledge of the truth; then is God our Soveriegn redeemer too late to save what is lost and whats more why did he predestine but a few, you have missed the point and many on this sight have missed it too. It is Gods will to save a few to save the many and that is the resurection hope that in the millenial kingdom he will bring the rest  of mankind back to life, even though many resist, he will never give up on what he created for everything is good, the new heavens and new earth, says he will wipe the tears from everyones eyes neither will their be death no more or  pain or sufferering anymore the former things have passed away :)