Very controversial question to pose.

[Paul Hazelwood]

If I remember the name correctly, It was a forum just called "Christian forums" or something like that.

Anyway I ended up being banned from that forum due to the overwhelming complaints over the proposition I posed.   I'll admit that I intended for this to be an antagonistic question, so getting banned was something I expected.  I still believed it is a question that should be answered by those who demand the following.

That the "bible is true" and that the "true" message concerning salvation is that if you do not make a decision to accept Christ of your own free will before you die on earth then you for all eternity will be punished,  doomed to have an existance of such without any hope. 

I posed that if the eternal punishment message is true then Christians should never have kids, for the risk of not knowing if your kids will "get saved" is much too high and that if their child dies "after the age of accountability"  without making that decision, then they are responsible for their child going to hell. These parents made the free will choice to have a child and the child had no choice in the matter to be given this life and subjected to that risk.

Thats is probably not word for word what I posted , but it is the general idea.


I am not going to argue with anyone over the question.  I am asking your opinion if it is a reasonable question or not?

[martincisneros]

I'll take it a step further and say that under the eternal punishment paradigm, abortion doctors are heroes that are risking their own damnation to get kids out of here before the age of accountability.  It's unavoidable that if there's a certain age bracket where not having embraced the Lordship of Jesus is okay/reasonable/acceptable/permissible/overlookable/unpunishable, but after that time period if you die without Christ then you'll burn forever, then anything that can be done to limit the number of those damned at 12, 13, 14, 15 or whenever the really bad year to die as someone young would be....

The eternal hell paradigm places the abortion doctor in the position of having the same grave responsibilities as the youth pastor.  Get them across the finished line with Christ at absolutely any and every cost, even to one's own eternal existence, if one is a caring/compassionate person who doesn't want to see kids by the thousands dying in accidents, school shootings, gang warfare, or whatever who've crossed that mystical age of accountability and must suffer the eternal consequences of hearing Jesus Christ SCREAM at their 10 to 20 year old selves "DEPART FROM ME, INTO THE FIRE PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD BECAUSE I NEVER KNEW YOU, YOU WORKER OF INIQUITY!!!!!!"

(http://www.tentmaker.org/images/PreacherFinal.jpg)

[Paul Hazelwood]

LOL, love that cartoon, where did you get that?

[martincisneros]

I got it from the main Tentmaker website on this page:

http://www.tentmaker.org/Cartoons/index.htm

There's only about 2 others on there.  I think that the page is taking longer to fill out with comics than Gary intended.

[firstborn888]

they are responsible for their child going to hell. These parents made the free will choice to have a child and the child had no choice in the matter to be given this life and subjected to that risk.

Thats is probably not word for word what I posted , but it is the general idea.


I am not going to argue with anyone over the question.  I am asking your opinion if it is a reasonable question or not?

Absolutely yes - rattle those cages! I use it all the time.

It's proof that no one really, in their heart of hearts, believes in ET or they would never take the risk. Some say "I have to have kids - because I'm commanded by God to multiply".

My response is "If you really believe in ET then be a man and defy the procreation order - in fact, kill yourself and stop the risk of being responsible for any more eternal torment". Response "But I'll go to hell for killing myself". Answer: "But you'll be a great hero for sacrificing yourself to save others."

Yes, it gets a little crazy, doesn't it.... :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Some say "I have to have kids - because I'm commanded by God to multiply".

1 Corinthians 7:8 And I say to the unmarried and to the widows: it is good for them if they may remain even as I am;

[Paul Hazelwood]

I got it from the main Tentmaker website on this page:

http://www.tentmaker.org/Cartoons/index.htm

There's only about 2 others on there.  I think that the page is taking longer to fill out with comics than Gary intended.

lol,  I wondered about what Jack Chick could come up with if he became a universalist.

[valueallhumanlife2008]

Paul I want to thank you for being able to bring up this topic.  I see things the way you do as well but I haven't had the nerve to bring this up to anyone.

I remember at one time I read a post on this forum where one said they couldn't imagine being a calvinist holding their newborn baby and had to wonder if their baby was part of the elect or not.  Arminianism isn't any better.  You basically just have to hope that your child accepts the Lord, but you can't control their free will.

I think this argument proves another point as well.  You and I believe that if eternal torment is true then having children is a selfish thing to do.  However when you hear an eternal torment believer talking about wanting to have kids, it just shows that they haven't truly thought their position through.  That's where they struggle, they don't truly look at what it is they believe in.

Chris

[jabcat]

Paul, not trying to hijack your thread, I think this ties in.  I'm not saying we shouldn't share the Good News, we are told to "charge and teach Jesus, Savior of all men, especially of those believing".  But....if ET were true, then aren't missionaries doing a dis-service as well, when they go tell "pagans/heathens" about Jesus who've never heard before?  Again, that's IF they go to hell once they've heard His name and don't believe, then wasn't their hearing about Jesus unfortunate for them?  It can't be that way, can it, just as it can't be that way with children born into this age?  Jesus' death and resurrection is GOOD NEWS! to ALL MEN in the context of the dispensation of God's plan for the Ages.  Ephesians 3:10,11..."that there might be made known now to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenly [places], through the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God, 
according to a purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord"... 

[reFORMer]

But....if ET were true, then aren't missionaries doing a dis-service as well, when they go tell "pagans/heathens" about Jesus who've never heard before?  Again, that's IF they go to hell once they've heard His name and don't believe, then wasn't their hearing about Jesus unfortunate for them?

I was raised to believe a doctrine popular in many religious systems called "Original Sin."  It is that people inherited Adam's sin and it's guilt so are by nature children of wrath.  You deserve to be ceaselessly tortured for ever just for being born here as a human being.  This in their minds is an incentive to evangelize those that have never heard.  Some might believe; other wise, they're all already heading to permanent hell.

What I keep being so dazzled by is the seeming impossiblity to get those indoctrinated into this and other parts of their systematic theologies to prove these doctrines by saying them in the actual quoted words of Scripture (verified from the original languages.)  They can't seem to comprehend the request.  Yet they mouth the words, "We believe the Bible.  We teach only what the Bible says."  Of course, the Bible doesn't teach "Original Sin" or a lot of other commonly accepted traditions of men.

Without verifying to my personal satisfaction the legitimacy of presuppositional apologetics I see a functional validity in that approach because of these strongholds.  (Rather than the humanistic ideal of reason defining man inherited from the Enlightenment, presuppositionalism's man is a creature of faith.  All ultimate claims are based on one's beginning assumptions rather than rational conclusions.)  How are we to overcome those claiming God's approval for beliefs based in human authority and are actually in rebellion against God and His authority?

[jabcat]

James, I think I like what you're saying, but could you say the last paragraph over with 25 cent words instead of 50 centers?  :mblush:.

P.S.  I think the A to your Q is along the lines of Jesus draws and the Spirit reveals/unveils.  All we can do is proclaim and pray  :JCThink:.

[reFORMer]

James, I think I like what you're saying, but could you say the last paragraph over with 25 cent words instead of 50 centers?  :mblush:.

Yes, if I had the time.

P.S.  I think the A to your Q is along the lines of Jesus draws and the Spirit reveals/unveils.  All we can do is proclaim and pray  :JCThink:.

...and suffer.  (Love really hates lies!)

[jabcat]

You're right.  Suffer...and rejoice!  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

I previously said, "I think the A to your Q is along the lines of Jesus draws and the Spirit reveals/unveils.  All we can do is proclaim and pray".      I said that like it doesn't bother me, when in fact now that I think about it, it really does bother me...a lot.  What I said may be right, but it's the "technical" answer, not the one I usually experience.  I want people to see, to understand, to "get it", and I struggle with the fact that they don't. It gets lonely being one of the only people you really know in the world who believes like you do.  So yeah, Reformer, I feel the intensity of "how do you get them [to see]".....I need to absorb the reality of what I said, not just say it....James.

[HappyBoy!]

Great question!  Actually, any time I begin to doubt UR (which is less and less frequently) I think of things like this.  It's unanswerable questions like these that brought me to UR.

I had 7 children before accepting UR at about the time my 8th child was born a year ago.  I often thought of this question, but handled it the way my wife still does.  I just trusted God to work things out.  That's the best I could come up with.

Along the lines of the "age of accountability", check out this article by Charles Slagle.  It is strong and a bit graphic so would be for the mature audience - A Tale of Two Twins - http://sigler.org/slagle/tale_of_twins.htm

Great thread!

[valueallhumanlife2008]

Tale of Two Twins by Charles Slagle is extremely disturbing so I'll also warn you before reading it.  But it is a story that makes you think.

[Gabe Grinstead]

Wow, difficult question. I think the question is an ok question, but that it probably will not reach the intended audience. But that is for God to decide.  I am not sure if being antagonistic is a Christ-like aspect or not.  I struggle with that one myself... You want to be sarcastic, but that somewhat goes against the gentle and quiet spirit thing in 1st Peter.

[valueallhumanlife2008]

There's 2 books I want to read that are both about parents who's unbelieving child has passed away.  One is Whatever Became of Melanie and the other is The Jerome Conspiracy.  Jerome lived during the 4th or 5th century I believe.  He was originally a universalist but he got caught up with Augustine and started to believe in eternal torment.  The Jerome Conspiracy is supposed to reveal some astonishing facts about Jerome and the doctrine of eternal punishment.  I'll be reading it this week and I'll let you all know how it is.

[firstborn888]

The Jerome Conspiracy is supposed to reveal some astonishing facts about Jerome and the doctrine of eternal punishment.  I'll be reading it this week and I'll let you all know how it is.

Looking forward to your book review! Please post it here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3346.0

as well  :thumbsup:

[valueallhumanlife2008]

Well I went to Barnes and Noble and they didn't have the book.  But they did order it for me.  Hopefully it'll come in soon.

Has anyone read Whatever Became of Melanie?

[rosered]

 
  Hi Paul  and ALL ,
  great post ReFORMer
  it is true LOVE /GOD  suffers  hates lies! 

  there is nothing more pitiful  than  for a parent  to doubt and  wonder 
if     WHERE IS /their   "young man"   SON who died in a truck wreck at 32
example   only , but I am not lying here it has happened  just this past week  to a couple I know  :mshock:
   they have two sons  both die in 4 months apart  one is christian 27 
whom  was  so loving and  dear  and  they were suffering his loss  and not understanding WHY  God took him ?he having a loving wife of 8 years and a 5 year old son and twin babies  4 months old  died in a freak  fishing accident /drowning by undertow
  this couple is  so awesome  and wondeful  and "good people
  but they have been raised and conditioned  to believe in  hell fire and everlasting punishment and have  raisied their 3 boys[little ones to now ] to believe also  the same   and that going to church  is the way of expressing and exercising  their faith in God

  this has ripped  families apart and faith apart  and utter deveatation  to so many
  and to me the difference  between   UR believers and  ET believers is that   wonderfully Strange Confidence in God through Jesus Christ , that fear and worry  subsides  , you can never tell it on the outside  , just by looking  at any one of us  .all folks considered here
its  something I have  realized over time
  just what the difference is   
that calm  rest in Gods will being perfect  and you cannot change  His will  no matter how much you kick and scream  against it 

I thank you for this thread , its has been  very enlighting  to me personally 
God love you all .. rose

 

[Pleroo]

.

[DeeDee]

they are responsible for their child going to hell. These parents made the free will choice to have a child and the child had no choice in the matter to be given this life and subjected to that risk.

Thats is probably not word for word what I posted , but it is the general idea.


I am not going to argue with anyone over the question.  I am asking your opinion if it is a reasonable question or not?

Absolutely yes - rattle those cages! I use it all the time.

It's proof that no one really, in their heart of hearts, believes in ET or they would never take the risk. Some say "I have to have kids - because I'm commanded by God to multiply".

My response is "If you really believe in ET then be a man and defy the procreation order - in fact, kill yourself and stop the risk of being responsible for any more eternal torment". Response "But I'll go to hell for killing myself". Answer: "But you'll be a great hero for sacrificing yourself to save others."

Yes, it gets a little crazy, doesn't it.... :laughing7:

Its so funny guys, I was just thinking of this and then I came across these posts. I heard somewhere (not sure now where or if it was even in my country) that a little boy asked his teacher why Mary and Joseph named their baby after a curse word - that naturally caused the teacher lots of concern. Religion is'nt taught in schools in my country anymore but evolution is very much so taught. Parents are'nt teaching their kids religion anymore and thats what makes for such questions coming up. Lots of kids (majority I am sure) don't even realize why we at first celebrated Christmas - it's become a commercial money making enterprise. Okay now my point is simple. We are living in very unreligious times, lots of people have rejected religion all together and therefore many of the next generation (the children of today) have no idea of what religion even is. Since no one is making an effort in their lives to teach them, is it really fair to think our loving Father would condemn them?

Blessings and my  :2c:
Dee

[DeeDee]

The children that is. Meant I really doubt He would condemn the children.

Dee

[WhiteWings]

The children that is. Meant I really doubt He would condemn the children.

You will get many different answers on that question. On this board it will simply be that those childeren will enter heaven.
But I also have read ET visions/opinions....
The most morbid one was along these lines:

Someone was having a look into the seperate torture chambers of hell. All diffrent and all with different pain levels.
In a certain room there was a baby in an oven.
The baby was there because it died before it was baptized.
Now you might ask youself isn't that very unfair? The baby didn't sin yet!
The answer was that God knew the baby would have become some monster like Hitler.
So God showed his grace in two fold:
a] He protected society from the crimes the grown up baby would do.
b] And the baby was only in an oven now instead of a very hot fire if it was allowed to live a whole life.

So 6 billion people. 6 billion answers.....