Where do you find ANY scripture saying that the condemned are taken out of gehenna fire and integrated into the body of Christ after a limited time? Are you utilizing Paul's intentionally twisted verses over Christ clear truth's?
Do you understand the spiritual definition of 'man'? or are you taking the earthy/orthodox definition and running with it?
Do you understand the real meaning of 'world' from the Most High God's standpoint? or are you understanding it to mean this planet?
What makes you think the pronouncements of Jesus Christ, from His own mouth are negated by some odd feel good reinterpetation of other scriptures? Do you agree with the pharasees, and believe Jesus was a liar and a deciever?
Jesus said:
Matthew 10:27
What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 7:
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Note: destruction does not mean some temperary torment! It means the end of your soul, also known as the 'second death'.
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
As John the Babtist put it:
Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Jesus put it in other verses. So many I won't bother using most them. You know what they are.
John 15:
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Matthew 25:
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Do you ignor everything spoken of for a man's private interpetation proclaiming a different gospel than Jesus preached?
How do you explain this parable about the different ends of people Jesus gave.
Luke 16: 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead
John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Was Jesus lying in John 3:36
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Was Jesus lying in the above verse too? If everyone enters the kingdom of heaven (the future universe described by John, in which he is the light forever, a place of pure joy, no pain or suffering or death), then Jesus is a liar, because he stated in Matthew 7:21 that not everyone shall enter this kingdom. It's either one of two options:
1) Everyone enters the kingdom and Jesus is a lair (because he stated the opposite in the above verse).
2) Everyone does not enter the kingdom and Christ is true.
Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Jesus was speaking to the evil pharisaical priests who hated and wish to kill him and all who followed him. Was he lying to them in when he told them they would not be allowed into the Kingdom of God?
Who among you will listen to Christ above all others?
Hell is a place of total destruction.
THose of you who believe souls will eventually be released from the metaphoric 'hell' that is prepared for Satan, his angels and the serpents in clay bodies (tares), are once again NOT believing the truth Christ told:
Mark 9:
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Some say the flames of hell (metaphor of death or destruction of the soul), will be quenched.
Why would you when Christ himself told you otherwise? You either believe Christ, or you don't.
The lake of fire means to be destroyed. See for yourself...
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
And how is death destroyed?
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The second death = Lake of fire = destroyed.
31. Now is come the judgment of this world. Now the prince of this world is cast out.
32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men to myself.
33. This He said indicating the type of death that He would die.
John 12:31-33
The type of death that He would die wasn't just the crucifixion, but it's everything He said about this death: the judgment of the world, the prince of this world being cast out, and the drawing of all men to Himself. Why would He command the proclaiming of Good News to every creature unless it was actually Good News in the Great Commission?? Do a word study on the Greek Word translated "Gospel" in the "Authorized Version" and it's only used 3 or 4 times outside of and predating the Gospel Dispensation, and it means News that's too good to be true. Few things besides UR constitute news that's too good to be true, but that's so good because IT IS TRUE :cloud9:
If some are saved and others find no place beyond condemnation in the way that the Apostle Thomas did, then how is that excessively good news? It would still be the Mosaic dispensation of "survival of the fittest." Is it not possible that any of Jesus' teachings, beyond the ones permitted to be as such by the "orthodox," -- is it possible that in no other passages than the ones that you accept as such that He'd of outlined WHY HE HAD TO DIE?? He gave Himself a ransom for the many who've found the broad way to destruction. "The few" wouldn't have needed it, based upon everyone's acknowledgement of it being a foregone conclusion that they'd of come running and repenting to the Master. But what about the hard cases? Is He not the Great Physician, called "Doctor" by Luke 6 different times in his Gospel, although this is obscured by the "Authorized Version? Did He not come to seek and to save the destroyed (mistranslated as "lost" by your AV)? Is He not Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever? When He returns will He be a different Jesus entirely from what we have in the 4 Gospels? Will He no longer have compassion on the people and see them as sheep without a shepherd? Will He Who rebuked the goats for not visiting the prisoners of this life follow in their example by leaving eternal prisoners forever unvisited? Are yours really the glad tidings to all men that were announced by angels at His birth, Peacetroll?
So, Peacetroll, let me get this straight. You're asserting that the casting of death into the Lake of Fire is the eternal affirmation of it over all of those who've died RATHER THAN it's destruction and the reversal of it's fruits? No, Peacetroll, no. The Lake of Fire is the death of death, which means life for all who've thus far known nothing but death.
So, you're saying that sin will win out in the end over the Blood of Christ? So, in the lives of many, He died in vain? He wasn't more powerful than their sin?? Or are you of the Calvinist persuation that believes that His judgment isn't validated by Him getting what He wants, or in His validating the work of the Cross, but in Him bringing destruction to that which Christ died for?
Were you ever under the wrath of God? Were you ever an unbeliever? Were you ever a child of wrath? Were you ever a stranger to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world? Then by your own testimony, those upon whom the wrath of God abides can see life :thumbsup:
QuoteHe gave Himself a ransom for the many who've found the broad way to destruction. "The few" wouldn't have needed it, based upon everyone's acknowledgement of it being a foregone conclusion that they'd of come running and repenting to the Master
First, your interpretation of 'man' is orthodox and aligns with every human beings understanding, it's an easy description to hold to, but not necessarily the correct one., but you need to research more and hopefully God will enlighten you as to the true 'spiritual' definition of a man.
Now, all were doomed to destruction unless he ransomed himself.
Isaiah 59:16
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
As for Jesus giving His life for the sins of the world, that is quite true. He will save those who believe in this dispensation from being in danger of the second death during the rule of Christ and the saints for a thousand years. The time when the angels, meaning the saints, seperate the wheat from the tares. Just as prophesied!
Malachi 3
1Behold,
I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
That 'messenger' was John the Baptist.
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest:
and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.Malachi also described what Jesus emphasized in Matthew 13:30..
Malachi 3:16
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.The righteous = wheat. The wicked = tares.
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
It is the reign of Christ spoke of by John in the above verse that is the same time that Jesus spoke of as the seperation of the wheat from the tares and that Malachi spoke of in 3:16 (the seperation of the righteous from the wicked).
As for your reasoning
Quote"The few" wouldn't have needed it
, I beg to differ.
Without Christ, there would be no narrow gate (for he is the narrow gate). Jesus simply pointed out the truth, ...few there be that will truely believe in him and therefore find salvation.
Without Christ there would be no 'few' in the gate, because he is the gate. as he spoke.
John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The idea that the 'few' did'nt need Christ for salvation (to enter the Kingdom of Heaven) has no logical nor scriptural support.
Nice try, if you're going to quote me, at least give the entire quote:
Quote"The few" wouldn't have needed it, based upon everyone's acknowledgement of it being a foregone conclusion that they'd of come running and repenting to the Master.
There is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood.
How can there be a 'few' in the gate with no gate? Remember, no man can come to Christ without God/He drawing them. Those who are in the gate (or in Christ) are drawn by him, not of their own consious choosing.
Hebrews 9
8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Without Christ, nobody nowhere nohow could enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (he is the door to that kingdom).
Then you do believe in the finished work of the Cross!! I'm sorry, Peacetroll. I was under the impression that you were of the belief that the Cross would ultimately fail in a single life somewhere, sometime, because their sins were too weighty for the Son of God to bare away. As He has drawn us to Himself, we may joyfully expect with joy inexpressible and full of glory that He'll likewise draw absolutely all men unto Himself, according to the type of death that He said in John 12 that He would die :cloud9:
John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
I believe Christ. And Christ came to save the wheat and burn the tares. There is no failure in this. What you deem failure is actually the mission. He has no intention of saving the tares, for they are of their father the devil, they can not nor ever will change, they hate goodness and life and mercy.
When you claim that all lives will be saved, you understand not that without Christ in you, you have no life to save. What is the difference between a dog and a human? Not much without Christ.
1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Hebrews 2:
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
The expulsion of Satan, his angels and the vessels that carry his spirit and breath is victory, not failure.
Those who are not of Jesus are of Satan, and they have no life in them and are spiritually dead. They are not his, nor ever will be.
Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 18, 2008, 10:39:35 PM
The expulsion of Satan, his angels and the vessels that carry his spirit and breath is victory, not failure.
Were this the extent of His will, He could have done all of that without unifying Himself with all of mankind through the Incarnation and then taking their sins upon Himself at the Cross. All of mankind, according to Colossians 1, were in Christ before they were in Adam. Romans 5, 1Corinthians 15, 2Corinthians 5, and 1Timothy 2 all declare that the death that Jesus died was the recovery of all of mankind. When Adam died, all men died; when Christ died, all men were given life. The work of Christ, in Romans 5, isn't like the work of the first Adam because no one can come along later and undo the work of Christ. It was once for all.
Why withhold your views of man and of the world, if you believe that your spiritualizations of both are so foundational to refuting the Biblical message of the Universal Restoration?
If the wheat is/was/will always be the wheat, and if a tare is/was/will always be a tare, then what's the actual intent of a) telling anyone about Christ/preaching salvation, b) teaching obedience/seeking first the kingdom (if a tare can't become wheat or if a wheat's already guaranteed the full inheritance), and c) even having these discussions along these lines? What would be gained if I were to be convinced that some were simply "dogs" without any hope, or if I were convinced the "dogs" would actually be annihilated? Would it just serve the purpose of the wheat feeling better that even the "dogs" saw the wheat was right, and/or is it just a point of something to argue about?
So, bottom line, to you Brother PT, what's your personal motivation wrt to these wheat/tare/annihilation threads? Is it to convince UR believers we are wrong, and if so, to what end? Thanks for helping me understand that, because honestly, it appears to me that thread after thread, these discussions are circular and do they really get anybody anywhere? :dontknow:. James.
None of you have told me why what Jesus said is annuled by what one of the apostles said in his cryptic letters, some of which he did not write, as he ascerted by saying he signed all 'his' epistles with his own hand. Jesus was specific in His mission, it's cause and it's result from the beginning of His work on earth.
Every parable, and every outright statement were to the point, and yet all He professed is replaced with a theory contrary to all He said. :sigh:
John 12: 44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Paul's ministry was to the gentiles, that there might be an elect called and chosen from among all the countries on earth. He did the job admirably, being a deciever, yet truthfull,
that the vast majority , hearing, would not hear, and would drop out of the race, and build his house of faith on sand.
As I have shown you, Paul was rejected by the churches he founded when they heard what was taught by the original 12 apostles. I'll put up the clue again. He even warned what would happen.
2 Timothy 4
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. [/b]
2 Timothy 2:8Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
And finally his description of his rejection by his own churches.
2 Timothy 4:9Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:
10For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
11Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
12And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus.
13The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
14Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
16At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
17Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
Context. Jesus explicitly said about His earthly ministry that He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. IMO, He was talking, in context, to the Jewish nation/religious leaders that were about to lose their position of inheritance when the gospel would then go to the Gentiles...but only temporarily...because in the end, scripture states "all Israel will be saved". Paul's ministry was then mainly toward us Gentiles, those grafted in. There is no contradiction if scripture is taken in context, to whom things were being said, and why.
Now, PT, would you answer my question, or is this as some have said, not really about dialogue, but just about trying to prove some point? Which again, IMO, seems to just go around in circles, thread after thread. What is the purpose? Maybe you just have the need to share your thoughts, which is understandable? Evangilization, for the sake of argument, what? At some point, I personally won't continue some fruitless, pointless argument, if that's all it is.
Thanks, James.
P.S. I would think calling Paul and his teachings deception (so much of the NT not being God-breathed?) would be textual criticism?
Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, and all Israel shall be saved, but not all who are called Israel are included.
Paul gave you the enigma of having to rightly divide the word of truth. For the elect's sake.
Romans 9:5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Paul knew Israel was infested with Indumeans and Kenites, as the scripture below states.
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Why do you think this was written?
Acts 2:46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Do you really think what Jesus preached to the jews was ONLY for the jews to hear???
Better reflect on the following scriptures, understand why Paul was sent to the gentiles.
John 10:15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
You seem to disregard what He said for what you think others said was the gospel of Jesus Christ. That message is the freeing of Adam's children from the valley of the shadow of Death, and the elimination of children of that Death, who are the tools used for the destruction of Man.Jesus called them vipers, vipers are deaf. They will never hear His word.
John 8:43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Who's word will we be judged by when this is over? Jesus Christ's words at the judgement seat of Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
This is the dividing of sheep and goats, as Jesus said, the wheat and the tares.
Why would you disregard His direct words?
PT, you quote Paul to attempt to prove your points, although "Paul can't be trusted"? :Chinscratch: It's ironic you suggest I may be disregarding scripture, when I've in fact said there are no discrepancies in scripture when taken in context. Oh, well, I don't know that there's a whole lot new here, and I'm not going to chase my tail.
If someone else likes to ride on a merry-go-round they're welcome to it, but I get dizzy so choose not to ride. In fact, I don't even like to watch...but I still believe you're my brother :Peck:. (Holy smooch).
God works all things according to the counsel of His will.
Oh man, I just saw the following thread title in the "Users Online" section and thought for a second that someone was after me about my last post to PT....The thread title is "You are not allowed to kiss him... Or go to hell!" Whew, it was just someone looking at that thread...got my attention though...
Jabber, jabber, jabber, I give you many scriptures you give me jabber. I quote Paul because you think you know what he was saying. The things that happened between him and the churches he established for the way he made the gospel obtruce have no reason for any forger to produce. It does not push an agenda that would benefit either the pharasees, or the catholic church, nor secular powers.
Did you know that the US gov. has recruited pastors to go around if they suspend the constitution, and round up citizens, to calm the populace for them using Paul's supposed quote:
Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Do you believe any secular power is a minister of God???? Would Paul have called them ministers of God??? They are given their power by the enemy over this world.
Still no answer about disregarding the word of Jesus for some other message. :thumbdown:
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 20, 2008, 02:42:01 AM
Jabber, jabber, jabber, I give you many scriptures you give me jabber.
Listen to who is talking... Dusty... :rolleye:
You NEVER respond to others... :thumbdown:
...willieH :laughing7:
Hi WillieH
That's pretty much the case, but then again what do you expect from someone who rejects half of the New Testament? Peacetroll rejects the authenticity of Paul's letters, as though Peacetroll had 100% proof of who wrote the 4 Gospels and Revelation. Personally, I trust Paul the most because I can find every single statement of his in the 4 Gospels and in the Old Testament. I did that in the early 90s after I'd memorized Paul's epistles. Word for Word Old Testament and the 4 Gospels.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 18, 2008, 09:09:32 PM
The second death = Lake of fire = destroyed.
THIS is the LAKE OF FIRE... and YES, the FLESH of ALL shall be DESTROYED in that DEATH!
And YOU are on this LIST Dusty:
(Rev 21:8) But the FEARFUL, and UNBELIEVING, and the ABOMINABLE, and MURDERERS and SORCERERS, an IDOLATORS, and ALL LIARS, ...
SHALL:
HAVE THEIR PART ...
in... the LAKE which burneth with fire and brimstone: which IS the 2nd DEATH...
YOU and I and ALL human beings are on this list Dusty...
The
FIRST death is in the SPIRIT which ALL MEN have experienced and which
CHRIST died to REDEEM us FROM... CHRIST noted those who were living but NOT CONVERTED and DRAWN by GOD, as DEAD...
The
SECOND death is that which MAN is appointed to DIE HIMSELF... from which NO REDEMPTION is provided... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
Is you, or is you ain't my brother? If so, don't be so unkind. If not, then I understand...any wolf bares their teeth when the sheepskin's pulled back and they're pushed into a corner. I don't really believe that's you though, because you're a lot more obvious than those who quietly slip into the sheep's midst.
You know that carnival tune where things are going 'round, and 'round, and 'round? It's playing now.
And that's Jabcat, Jabcat, Jabcat...not sure where you got the 'jabber'. I kind'a like it though. That can be the name for my alter ego, the mean one...as in, "I sho' jabbed'em that time."
And seriously now, "Jesus, savior of all men...charge these things and teach."
Peacetroll, every single -- and I do mean each and every -- destruction passage has an accompanying Restoration passage, even if you don't know where it's at. I won't do all of your Bible studying for you, but here's a few to at least hopefully tweak you about looking for the Restoration in the Bible. You've found the destruction in the Bible, and we're in perfect agreement about that.
All of it.
YES WE ARE!!
But you've prematurely stopped scrutinizing the Scriptures. I challenge you to look for the Restoration.
The Bible says that it is appointed to men once to die, and after that the judgment (Heb. 9:27-28). It does not say after death all hope is gone! Thus, we see that:
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)—until—God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ez. 16:53-55);
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)—until—the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17);
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)—until—the Lord "will restore . . . the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53);
Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6);
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"—
until—the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3);
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is—until—they "were shattered" (Hab. 3:6);
The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be "perpetual"—until—Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13);
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"—until—the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4,42)—until—the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47);
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"—until—the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it—until—Christ and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28);
God is now calling out "a people for His name"—an "elect" or chosen priesthood people who will represent and reflect His loving nature. Many are called and few are chosen—until—the small chosen priesthood people, by the Spirit, restore "David's tabernacle" so ALL mankind may inquire of the Lord. Thus we see that the church is the first born, the beginning—until—in all (later born new creatures in Christ) our Lord will have supremacy (Amos 9:11-12, Matt. 22:14, Acts 15:14-18, Eph. 3:15, Col. 1:18).
All manner of sin will be forgiven in this age as well as in the age (not eternity) to come, except blasphemy against God's Spirit—until—such blasphemy finds pardon in the fullness of the times (or ages) when God unites all in Christ. For the Lord does not retain His anger forever because He delights in mercy (Matt. 12:32; 18:11,21-22, Eph. 1:9-11, Rev. 4:11; 5:13, Mic. 7:18-20).
God's wrath has come upon Israel "to the uttermost"
(1 Thess. 2:16). So there is a gulf between "the rich man in purple" (Royal Covenant "Son", Israel) and the saved gentiles (Lazarus) which no man can cross—until—Christ Himself crosses it to bring His promised restoration. For again, Scripture promises that ALL Israel will be saved (Jer. 50:5, Luke 16:19-26, John 12:32, Romans 11:26-29).
Christ's fallen apostle, Judas, will be restored just as surely as fallen Israel (of which he is a member) will be restored. For the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable, and He has purposed to unite all in Christ. For Scripture assures us that He who calls us is "faithful". He will surely perform it. So Judas is lost—until—the Lord restores Him (John 15:16, 1 Thess. 5:24).
So, Christ will say to unrighteous nations, "Depart from Me into 'everlasting' fire." And these nations will go away into "everlasting" (original language: age-lasting) punishment or pruning. That is—until—by God's severe mercy shown in judgment, all nations He has made glorify and worship Him. Thus God will fulfill His covenant with Abraham that in Christ all the families of ALL the nations will be BLESSED (Gen. 12:3, Ps. 62:12, 67:4, 86:9, Matt. 25:41,46). For according to Paul (Gal. 3:8), God's covenant with Abraham means that ALL will be justified and set right with God. So all flesh will bless His name forever and ever (Ps. 145:21).
Therefore, ALL scriptural references that speak of everlasting fire or judgment must be understood in light of God's (Love's) clearly expressed heart, promise, desire, purpose and will. They are "everlasting"; that is, they are continuous and on-going—until—God's judgments serve to accomplish His unchanging will and purpose to unite all creation in Christ. (Gen. 12:3, Romans 4:13, Heb. 6:17).
Gehenna's fires are not quenched and its worm does not die—until—the restoration of all things which has been spoken of by all God's holy prophets (Christ included) since the world began. For our Savior did not come to contradict His own prophets. Our Good Shepherd and Faithful Deliverer came to fulfill the law and the prophets! Thus our Lord does not cast off forever (Lam. 3:31-32, Heb. 13:8). He who taught us to forgive and bless our enemies will surely do the same for His. For every tongue will give thanks that in Him they have righteousness and strength. All flesh will bless His name forever and ever! For our Lord will not fail or become discouraged until He fulfills all of God's purpose, word and will. For He tells us that everyone will be "seasoned" with fire (Matt. 5:17, Mark 9:42-49, Acts 3:21).
Those who disobey the gospel and persecute Christians will be repaid with "everlasting" (that is, continuous) tribulation, destruction and punishment—until—by such persistent correction God shows them their need for Christ. So what is written in the prophets will come to pass, that all shall be taught of God, and everyone who has heard and learned from the Father (eventually) comes to Christ. Thus, all the families of the nations will remember Him and worship before Him. And all will submit to Him and sing His praise. So God's promise will be fulfilled that ALL men shall reverence Him, proclaim His works, and wisely consider His doing (Ps. 22:27-28, 64:4-5, 64:9, 2 Thess. 1:7-10).
Paul the apostle understood the "forever until" principle at work in God's redemptive judgments. He knew the heart of God, and Paul also knew God's will, purpose and plan. His knowledge of God's character, will and purpose governed his understanding of Scripture. That is why Paul could appear to contradict the prophet David! Have a look at Romans 11:9-12 (NIV), where David prophesies: May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution to them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see and their backs be bent forever.
And observe how Paul responds: Again I ask: Did they (Israel) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the gentiles (pagans, all who are spiritually unenlightened) to make Israel envious. For if their transgression means RICHES for the WORLD, and their loss means riches for the gentiles—how much greater riches will their (Israel's) fullness bring?
Wow . . . ! In the next three verses Paul assures us: that Israel's fall is the reconciliation of the world;
that Israel's fall will be (for them and all the world) life from the dead! (Ez. 37);
that because the FIRST fruit (Israel) is holy, the whole world ("lump" or "harvest field") is holy.
Read all of Romans chapter eleven, and the Scriptures will clearly speak for themselves. Practice reading all of God's Word in light of His character, commitment, purpose and reliable good pleasure and will. Get God's "forever until" policy of judgment settled in your heart—and get ready! You are about to embark upon a love affair with our Heavenly Father that will transform your life. His heart will heal and transform your heart! For of Him and through Him—and to Him—are ALL things! (Romans 11:36) Yourself included. For again, we must remember, our Savior did not come to contradict the words of His own prophets. He came to fulfill them.
Until the heart of God and the will of God become the foundational factors determining our understanding of Scripture, our "gospel" will be bad news—not good. "God is Love, but" is simply not the message the Holy Spirit is conveying to us in the Bible (1 John 4:10,14).
Jabber,jabber, jabber, you reject the words of Jesus and say ALL of Pauls writings are the way you should go. I do not reject all of Paul's letters, I know he was having a hard time while he was alive stopping phoney letters in his name from judaising his churches. Later many aditions were added by the Augustinians to push their agenda on the gentiles.
YOU are willingly ignorant of the words of Christ, to further your error, which says there is no difference between children of God, and children of this world, and that Jesus spoke the words He spoke for the wind. That what you think an apostle said trumps Jesus Christ- the living GOD.
What foolish sheeple you appear to be.
So, you're saying that if grace does not, judgment cannot, save man. How can damnation perfect those whom salvation has not helped ? Can hell do more for us than heaven? What more could God do for us, that He has not done for us? (Puseys Sermon, pp. 9, 10.)
The answer to this lies simply in what has been said elsewhere on this website, as to the reason why the way of life for us must be through judgment. We are held captive by a lie. One part of that lie is that we are as Gods. The remedy for this is to show us that we are ruined creatures. Till we believe or know this, we cannot return to God. Judgment, therefore, to show us what we are, is as needful as the grace which meets the other part of the serpent's lie, and shows what God is. Therefore God kills to make alive. Therefore He turns man to destruction, that He may say, Return, ye children of men. Therefore He delivers even Christians to Satan, for the destruction of their flesh, that so they may learn what grace has not taught them. If we want further examples, Nebuchadnezzar shows us how judgment does for man what goodness cannot. Loaded with gifts, through self-conceit he loses his understanding. The remedy is to make him as a beast. Then as a beast he learns what as a man he had not learnt. (Dan. 4:29-34.) Let the nature of the fall be seen, and the reason why we are only saved through judgment is at once manifest. Grace saves none but those who are condemned; nor till we have felt "the ministry of death and condemnation" do we fully know "the ministry of life and righteousness."
The firstfruits from Christ to us are proofs, that by death, and thus alone, is our salvation perfected. Unbelievers, who will not die with Christ, are lost, because they are not judged here. God cannot do more than He has done for man. Law and Gospel are His two covenants. But why may not the Lord, seeing that He is " Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, to-day, and for the ages," by the ministry of death and condemnation in another world do for those, who have not here received it, that same work of judgment to salvation, which in the firstfruits is accomplished in this present world? Blessed be His name, we know He will subdue all things unto Himself; and though our sin can turn His blessings into curses, He can no less turn curses into blessings, by that same power which through death destroys the power of death.
So you're claiming that this doctrine gives up God's justice; (Cazenoves Essay, pp. 22-24.) for if all are saved, there will be no difference between St. Peter and Nero, virgins and harlots, saints and sinners. (Jerome, on Jonah 3:6-7; quoted from Huets Origeniana, in Puseys Sermon, p.29)
This again is misapprehension or worse. God's justice is given up, because He saves by judgment. The conclusion is absurd; but it arises from the common notion, that we are saved by Christ from death, instead of by it and out of it. What Scripture teaches is, that man is saved through death; that the elect, being first quickened by the word, and then judging themselves or being judged in this world, (1Cor. 11:31-32) by a death to sin are freed from Satan; that others, not so dying to sin, remain in the life and therefore under the curse and power of the dark world, and are therefore delivered to Satan to be punished, to know, since they will not believe, their fall, and their need of God's salvation. But all this simply asserts the justice of God, that if men will not be judged here, they must be in the coming world.
You think that no distinction is made between St. Peter and Nero, virgins and harlots, saints and sinners. This is not only untrue,--for is there no distinction between reigning with Christ and being cast out and shut up in hell with Satan?--but is too like the murmur of the Elder Son at his brother's return, (Luke 15:29-30) to need any answer with those who know their own hearts. It is the old objection of the Pharisee and Jew, who thought God's truth would fail if sinners of the Gentiles shared their good things; an objection deeply rooted in the natural heart, which is slow to believe that an outwardly pure and blameless life needs as much the blood of the cross as the most depraved and open sinner. The objection only shows where they are who urge it; and whatever support it may seem to have from a part of God's Word,--as a part of God's Word, taken against the rest, seemed to justify the Jew, and was indeed the very ground on which he rejected the call of the Gentiles,--more light will show that it rests on partial views, and on a systematic disregard of all those truths of Scripture, which are beyond the dispensation. Some day we shall see, that "all have come short," (Rom. 3:23) that as to sin and failure "there is no difference between the Jew and Greek," (Rom. 10:12) that the elect are "by nature children of wrath, even as others," (Eph. 2:3) that if saved at all, first or last we must be "saved by grace;" (Eph. 2:8) and this truth will justify all God's ways, "who hath concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all." (Rom. 11:32)
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 18, 2008, 09:09:32 PM
Are you utilizing Paul's intentionally twisted verses over Christ clear truth's?
The wolf in sheep's clothing may bare his teeth when the sheep's clothing is drawn back; but when his near relative, the sheep dog, sees and hears things like the quote from peacetroll above he sees red, gets an infusion of adrenalin and a feeling like a rat terrier must feel when it sniffs and sees a rat. Does anybody see the fangs? Do you feel a hot breath on the back of your neck peacetroll?
On the other hand, martincisneros, your last 2 posts (#22, and #23) carry me to the tree of life in the midst of the paradise of God. I'm intoxicated with the vivacious draft of water of life!
---JMR
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 20, 2008, 04:25:33 AM
Jabber,jabber, jabber, you reject the words of Jesus and say ALL of Pauls writings are the way you should go. I do not reject all of Paul's letters, I know he was having a hard time while he was alive stopping phoney letters in his name from judaising his churches. Later many aditions were added by the Augustinians to push their agenda on the gentiles.
YOU are willingly ignorant of the words of Christ, to further your error, which says there is no difference between children of God, and children of this world, and that Jesus spoke the words He spoke for the wind. That what you think an apostle said trumps Jesus Christ- the living GOD.
What foolish sheeple you appear to be.
:thumbdown:
Not even - PT... :rolleye:
No one here is WILLINGLY ignorant of the words of
CHRIST...
Many here are however, ...WILLINGLY ignorant of the words of, ...
PEACETROLL... and your " observations", ...of the
Words of
CHRIST.
...willieH :cloud9:
:thumbdown: I quote Jesus Christ verbatem. You interpet what He said as you will to counteract what He bluntly stated.
Do you think the second coming started in 70 AD? Do you think your becoming more perfect everyday? Do you believe that when He comes every eye shall see Him, fast as lightning from the east to the west? Has this happened? :dontknow:
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 20, 2008, 07:37:23 PM
:thumbdown: I quote Jesus Christ verbatem. You interpet what He said as you will to counteract what He bluntly stated.
Do you think the second coming started in 70 AD? Do you think your becoming more perfect everyday? Do you believe that when He comes every eye shall see Him, fast as lightning from the east to the west? Has this happened? :dontknow:
PT
You still here Bro :icon_flower:
QuoteDo you think the second coming started in 70 AD?
Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation
so when is salvation....Is, was and Shall be Bro..or better still who....
Christ IS our salvation..NOW , was and shall be
2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold,
now [is] the day of salvation.) QuoteDo you think your becoming more perfect everyday?
We are made PERFECT, complete ,Whole In Him Bro,..its got nothing to do with us., it really all HIS WORK.
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
He is also OUR DAY of Judgment..
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
QuoteDo you believe that when He comes every eye shall see Him, fast as lightning from the east to the west? Has this happened?
As HE has already come for those who were and are , HE will come as a THEIF in the NIGHT to restore what is rightfully HIS( WILL "" BE")
Hes also OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS bro, Righteousness COMES from The east...The EYE that see HIM are those filled with HIS LIGHT.."light"ening is HIS REVEALATION to us..spiritual by discernment Brother.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Tis FINISHED.
Blessings
Taffy
He wasn't kidding, and every eye will see Him.
Revelation 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
As the prophet confirmed, and the scriptures cannot be broken.
Zechariah 12:9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
This is not talking about some imagined seing with the spirit.
Yo PT..
Not seeing(
seeing is understanding DUDE) with the spirit ..really..
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the
words that I speak unto you, [they] are
spirit, and [they] are life. BUT ONE HAS TO SEE them brother...POOR pharisees were blind..they had NO eyes,,that was their trouble..every pharisee were made blind at birth, had to be a prerequisite to be one.....had to be, other wise Christ words are lies and NOT SPIRIT.
and for those who understand revelation its signified... so what are Clouds?..those fluffy things in the sky ?..why on earth would Christ return in a CLOUD...I have link if you wish which expounds the Meaning of CLOUDS..just not enough space on one email..tis spiritual in its understand thou..may not suit you bro..no worries :icon_flower:..may add greater understanding to what your reading with those carnal eyes brother..makes much more sence for mine...for the BLIND CANT see..thatS a FACT...NON AS blind AS THOSE who CANT see....TO all those who see Him , HE will be SEEN..AND AS its him WHO draws ALL MEN TO him YET AGAIN TIS HIS WORK..not ours bro...maybe you clainm to much credit?.. :dontknow:.
..is this the revelation of HIS WORDS..of course...but signified..shortly COME TO PASS..
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
Quote
Zechariah 12:9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
PT.....in that DAY....CHRIST IS THAT DAY..its not a time or place its a who....the words of scripture testify to HIM..not a day.
spiritual Jerusalem BRO..it will stand..all FLESH WILL be destroyed..tis called death, Willie H and others have been endevouring to share that with you
Quote.
Zechariah 12:9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon
hey bro..you ask questions..try answering those of others Bro...ya duck and dive better that Sugar Ray Leonnard... :icon_flower
blessings to you PT
Taffy:
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 20, 2008, 09:01:52 PM
He wasn't kidding, and every eye will see Him.
Revelation 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
As the prophet confirmed, and the scriptures cannot be broken.
Zechariah 12:9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
This is not talking about some imagined seing with the spirit.
Within the FLESH resides the (MIS)"understanding" of the "Troll"
...willieH :icon_king:
willieH: Hi Brother Graham! :hithere:
Glad to see you active brother... :happygrin:
You (very well) said:
Quote from: Taffy on May 20, 2008, 09:44:57 PM
hey bro..you ask questions..try answering those of others Bro...ya duck and dive better that Sugar Ray Leonnard...
"Troll" doesn't ANSWER, ...because he has no answers bro... It is plain to see... :OhNo:
He resides in his little "cocoon"... with his self-proclaimed "understandings" :drama: ...which make
no sense... and ignores EVERY QUESTION asked of him... :dontknow:
Pity... :sigh:
...willieH :icon_king:
Read the scriptures, instead of producing dogma that is unsupported by Jesus Christ, nor His apostles.
When did any apostle say that the second coming had already happened? Do you believe it was in 70 ad? Why didn't all those who pierced Him see Him?-- :laughing7:
What did Paul say of this?
2 Thessalonians 2:2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
So where did the antichrist take over the world and sit in a temple saying he was God, and when?
willieH: :omg:
You have the AUDACITY to ASK QUESTIONS?
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 20, 2008, 11:01:57 PM
What did Paul say of this?
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 20, 2008, 11:01:57 PMSo where did the antichrist take over the world and sit in a temple saying he was God, and when?
WHO are YOU to ASK QUESTIONS of anyone here, "troll"?
Those who ANSWER questions, are those deserving of ANSWERS to their own...
You have learned LITTLE about
GIVING (answering) and practice
TAKING (asking) continuously in your discussion method... :thumbdown:
Get a clue! :rolleye:
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 20, 2008, 11:01:57 PM
Read the scriptures, instead of producing dogma that is unsupported by Jesus Christ, nor His apostles.
When did any apostle say that the second coming had already happened? Do you believe it was in 70 ad? Why didn't all those who pierced Him see Him?-- :laughing7:
What did Paul say of this?
2 Thessalonians 2:2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
So where did the antichrist take over the world and sit in a temple saying he was God, and when?
Hi again PT..
"The bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what it means." .....good quote me thinks.
.
I have responded again to your questions ..but for now have deleted them...
if you could be so kind just to respond to SOME of the questions asked( not just by me , but others) then maybe we can have a TWO way discussion...what say you bro :thumbsup:
:icon_flower:
Blessings Taffy
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 20, 2008, 07:37:23 PM
Do you think the second coming started in 70 AD? Do you think your becoming more perfect everyday? Do you believe that when He comes every eye shall see Him, fast as lightning from the east to the west? Has this happened? :dontknow:
Taffy quoted: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hbr 9:28) It is not, "Every eye shall see Him," but, only, " Unto them that look for Him." This is a very important observation since Hbr 9:28 is the closest the Bible comes to ever mentioning any "second coming" that I've been able to find. A significant contributer to the confusion is over 40 times when the N.T. indicates the "presence" of the Lord (from Greek "
parousia," "to be, to be present") it is rendered "coming" which refers to something that is away someplace else relocating to here. The title of
Revelation is an example: not something from someplace else, but lifting the veil on something already here,
The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
It is (Rom 8) the "manifestation of the sons of God" (v.19) for which "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." (v.22) This is tied in with "the glory which shall be revealed in us." (v.18) I would consider it wisest that we make what is written the foundation of our future expectations. Jesus has repeatedly manifested to His people down through the centuries. It is His people that are to be brought into the glory where He is, specially in their physical nature, that they may "appear with Him in glory."
What the KJV translated "lightning," which may mean a bolt of electricity to us, is definitely tied to "dawning" in the Greek. While dawn comes on quickly it is not instantaneous but gradual.
The word "coming" in the same verse (Mt 24:27) is actually "presence."
:goodpost:. That's a keeper James, you old Sheepdog. I've copied it to reference it later. Raised in dispensationalism, the "unveiling" has begun to dawn on me recently. Thanks, God's blessing, James the Chihuahua.
Quote from: reFORMer on May 20, 2008, 11:47:30 PM
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 20, 2008, 07:37:23 PM
Do you think the second coming started in 70 AD? Do you think your becoming more perfect everyday? Do you believe that when He comes every eye shall see Him, fast as lightning from the east to the west? Has this happened? :dontknow:
Taffy quoted: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hbr 9:28) It is not, "Every eye shall see Him," but, only, " Unto them that look for Him." This is a very important observation since Hbr 9:28 is the closest the Bible comes to ever mentioning any "second coming" that I've been able to find. A significant contributer to the confusion is over 40 times when the N.T. indicates the "presence" of the Lord (from Greek "parousia," "to be, to be present") it is rendered "coming" which refers to something that is away someplace else relocating to here. The title of Revelation is an example: not something from someplace else, but lifting the veil on something already here, The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
It is (Rom 8) the "manifestation of the sons of God" (v.19) for which "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." (v.22) This is tied in with "the glory which shall be revealed in us." (v.18) I would consider it wisest that we make what is written the foundation of our future expectations. Jesus has repeatedly manifested to His people down through the centuries. It is His people that are to be brought into the glory where He is, specially in their physical nature, that they may "appear with Him in glory."
What the KJV translated "lightning," which may mean a bolt of electricity to us, is definitely tied to "dawning" in the Greek. While dawn comes on quickly it is not instantaneous but gradual.
The word "coming" in the same verse (Mt 24:27) is actually "presence."
Hi James..way to go Bro :thumbsup:..Dont take much digging up aye Bro... :bgdance:
TO SEE IS TO UNDERSTAND...
Mat 5:8 Blessed [are] the
pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not,
neither do they understand. What the KJV translated "lightning," which may mean a bolt of electricity to us, is definitely tied to "dawning" in the Greek. While dawn comes on quickly it is not instantaneous but gradual.
DAWN..the start of a NEW DAY ... referred to as the First DAY..THE 8TH DAY...WHICH IS THE MORNING\DAY STAR which RISES IN our HEARTS...ALL CHRIST
and bro for mine it does come quickly
Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to
see the sepulchre.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a
dark place,
until the day dawn, and the
day star arise in your hearts:
Job 7:4 When
I lie down, I say, When shall
I arise, and the
night be gone? and I am
full of tossings to and fro unto the
dawning of the day BLESSINGS
Taffy
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 20, 2008, 09:01:52 PM
He wasn't kidding, and every eye will see Him.
Revelation 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
When Thomas and Saul of Tarsus saw Him, was it their salvation or their damnation -- even if Thomas and Saul wailed when they saw Him??
And I'm not stretching the interpretation if you'll keep these two verses in the context of the first 8 verses, will look it over in the more literal translations -- the more literal the better -- and compare it with the exact same language being used in these two verses you've just cited in the last half of the chapter with regards to Jesus's effects upon John when John saw Him. Jesus nearly repeated Himself when He was picking John up off of the ground FOR A REASON, because with John SEEING Him, he was spiritually revived after all he'd been through with his arrest and imprisonment. Verse 8 is identical with verse 18. How many times does the Bible do that elsewhere without there being a clear implication on the interpretation?
When Jesus comes to all of us, it's always with clouds and a progress of His revelation to us from glory to glory as the clouds are stripped away. The
Him coming with the clouds is never a reference to His return, although I do believe He will literally, bodily return someday. "Coming with the clouds" is the language of Daniel the prophet regarding the risen Christ coming with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of Days.
I suppose I could take it further and say that the clouds are the firstfruits because there's a cloud of witnesses mentioned in the book of Hebrews and Matthew's Gospel says that after Jesus was raised from the dead that many of the saints were raised from the dead at that time. But I won't insist upon this.
Most theologians agree, though, about the book of Daniel reference about it being a reference to His ascending into heaven where, as Ephesians says, "He'd fill all things." Every eye shall be seeing Him! Every eye, including all of the eyes that you think are destroyed. They shall see, or perceive Him and shout with joy that in the Lord Jesus alone they have righteousness and strength, according to the book of Isaiah.
Is your heart harder than John Calvin's? John Calvin even admitted in his notes on Isaiah 25 that all of the pious genuinely would like to see everybody saved. He entertained the thought further in his comments on "the Lord's prayer." Is your heart not with him on that? Or do you revel in the wood, hay, and stubble of St. Augustine who'd pompously assert against the Scriptures that such a Universal Restoration shall never be??! Are you like the person of old that said "if the Lord were to make windows in heaven, such a thing could never be!" Peacetroll, yours is the type of unbelief that I read about in the Scriptures where it says that "and the Lord HEARD THEM." I'm sincerely praying for your soul, because you really are in danger with the types of dangers faced by Korah's rebellion.
Hath the Lord only spoken by the Universalists? I have the Holy Spirit too!!Listen to what you've been saying. You're trying to convince us that God's not really
that good.
Well, it's been fun, but Ihave said all I will about this. At least you were all fired up to defend the untenable without relevant scripture. It was entertaining.
Ezekiel 33:3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
And who is the sword? And who is the rod?
Ezekiel 21:13
Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 21, 2008, 06:36:29 AM
Well, it's been fun, but Ihave said all I will about this. At least you were all fired up to defend the untenable without relevant scripture. It was entertaining. Awoke you from your dazed complacency, eh? :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: Not much point in talking to the scripturally illiterate. :laughing7: :laughing7: Dream on, as your blood is not on my hands. :msealed:
Ezekiel 33:3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
And who is the sword? And who is the rod?
Ezekiel 21:13
Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD.
So I have to become scripturally literate first, "clean" my act up first, then I can talk to you.
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 21, 2008, 06:36:29 AM
Well, it's been fun, but Ihave said all I will about this. At least you were all fired up to defend the untenable without relevant scripture. It was entertaining. Awoke you from your dazed complacency, eh? :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: Not much point in talking to the scripturally illiterate. :laughing7: :laughing7: Dream on, as your blood is not on my hands. :msealed:
How
self centered are your words "troll"... :Mcry:
Shamelessly waving your (self-verified) "literacy" in the faces of (supposed) "illiterates"...
Shame on you and your over-inflated and UNSPIRITUAL ego... :thumbdown:
PS... don't "fret none" about "our blood"... it was already CAREfully ETERNALLY protected, some 2000yrs ago... by one who (unlike yourself) not only KNEW
how to LOVE... He was LOVE itself!
You only show that you have much to learn... :pitiful:
...willieH :icon_king:
Hi Martin..Clouds
Throughout the first five books of the Old Testament, a single cloud invariably typified Christ. In Genesis, the token of God's covenant with Noah, that He would never again destroy all flesh with a flood of waters, was never mentioned apart from the cloud in which it would appear (Gen 9:13-16). In fact, God specified that the rainbow would be preceded by the cloud coming over the earth (Gen 9:14). In every other instance of a single cloud in the Pentateuch, the cloud that preceded Israel thoughout the wilderness is under discussion. In these instances, the Hebrew word is ‛ânân (Strong's #6051). The cloud was a pillar that led Israel while they walked in the light of day, but while they walked in the darkness of night, the pillar was of fire. (That being the case, we may conclude that we can walk in light and be led by a shining cloud, or we can walk in darkness and be led by fiery trial. Either way, we are led by God, but we may be led in peace or in judgment. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1Co 11:31-32)) This same pillar, while providing light for God's people (then or now) during the night, showed only darkness to the persuing denizens of Egypt (the world). When the cloud would fill the tabernacle (and later, the temple) of the Lord with the glory of the Lord, neither Moses (the Law - Exo 40:35) nor the priests were able to stand to minister and were displaced from the temple (1Ki 8:11; 2Ch 5:14). The glory and light of the Lord are associated with a cloud in other instances throughout the Old Testament as well (Job 37:15; Eze 1:28, 10:3-4).
The loftiness of clouds is used to describe the supremacy of the Lord in that he is higher than the clouds (Nah 1:3). The Lord is commonly depicted as riding upon a cloud (Isa 19:1; Mat 24:30, 26:64; Mar 13:26, 14:62; Luk 21:27), and in Psalm 140:3, clouds are said to be the Lord's chariot. In this sense of loftiness, clouds are also likened to the vain aspirations of evil men (Job 20:6; Isa 14:14; 2Pe 2:17; Jud 1:12). However, God's people with whom he is well pleased are also likened to clouds or otherwise associated with them in the loftiness of their calling (Isa 60:8; 1Th 4:17; Heb 12:1; Rev 11:12).
In most cases, throughout, clouds act in the capacity of a covering (Job 22:14, 26:9; Psa 105:39). The word most commonly translated as 'cloud' or 'clouds,' ‛ânân, is in fact derived from a word meaning 'covering' (‛ânan - Strong's #6049). In some cases, this covering was for a blessing (Isa 25:5, 44:22); in others, it was for a punishment or curse (Job 3:5; Lam 2:1, 3:44; Eze 30:18, 32:7). ...He scattereth his bright cloud: And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth. He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy (Job 37:11-13). Quite often, clouds operate in close association with darkness even in connection with God (Job 38:9; Eze 32:7-8, 34:12; Joe 2:2; Zep 1:15). In fact, there are many Old Testament descriptions of God's abode that include clouds and darkness (Deu 4:11, 5:22; 2Sa 22:12; Psa 97:2). Both as a covering and in connection with darkness, clouds are described as the earth's garment (Job 38:9)
Another aspect of clouds for which they are used as types is their impermanence. As such, they are likened to man; be it his flesh (Job 7:9), his welfare (Job 30:15), his goodness (kindness, mercy) (Hos 6:4), or his works (Hos 13:3).
This can be contrasted with prophecies of the coming Messiah in which He either rides a cloud (is over them) or in which there are no clouds. And therein lies an indication of the primary function of clouds as types. Whether as blessing or judgment, a cloud has always indicated that the associated subject was not fully revealed or that there was some mediating factor between the parties that the cloud divided. The fact that the morning is cloudless when Christ, He who rules over men, arrives (2Sa 23:4), shows that the coming of Jesus Christ is a revelation and a fulfillment. His work has permanence. He is over all and covers all....
aka Mike Vinson.
Blessings
Taffy
Hi Guys.
Just to mention two posts have been edited as certain comments were becoming personal , by all means discuss but endeavour to be nice. :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
1 Poor me! I am like those gathering summer fruit, like those picking grapes. But there aren't any grapes to eat or any ripened figs that I crave.
2 Faithful people are gone from the earth, and no one is decent. All people lie in ambush to commit murder. They trap each other with nets.
3 Their hands are skilled in doing evil. Officials ask for gifts. Judges accept bribes. Powerful people dictate what they want. So they scheme together.
4 The best of them is like a briar. The most decent person is sharper than thornbushes. The day you thought you would be punished has come. Now is the time you will be confused.
5 Don't trust your neighbors. Don't have confidence in your friends. Keep your mouth shut even when a woman is lying in your arms.
6 A son treats his father with contempt. A daughter rebels against her mother. A daughter-in-law rebels against her mother-in-law. People's enemies are the members of their own families.
7 I will look to the LORD. I will wait for God to save me. I will wait for my God to listen to me.
8 Don't laugh at me, my enemies. Although I've fallen, I will get up. Although I sit in the dark, the LORD is my light.
9 I have sinned against the LORD. So I will endure his fury until he takes up my cause and wins my case. He will bring me into the light, and I will see his victory.
10 Then my enemies will see this, and they will be covered with shame, because they asked me, "Where is the LORD your God?" Now I look at them. They are trampled like mud in the streets.
11 The day for rebuilding your walls and extending your borders is coming.
12 When that day comes, your people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, from Egypt to the Euphrates River, from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 The earth will become a wasteland for those who live on it because of what the people living there have done.
14 With your shepherd's staff, take care of your people, the sheep that belong to you. They live alone in the woods, in fertile pastures. Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead like before.
15 Let us see miracles like the time you came out of Egypt.
16 Nations will see this and be ashamed in spite of all their strength. They will put their hands over their mouths. Their ears will become deaf.
17 They will lick dust like snakes, like animals that crawl on the ground. They will come out of their hiding places trembling. They will turn away from your presence in fear, O LORD our God. They will be afraid of you.
18 Who is a God like you? You forgive sin and overlook the rebellion of your faithful people. You will not be angry forever, because you would rather show mercy.
19 You will again have compassion on us. You will overcome our wrongdoing. You will throw all our sins into the deep sea.
20 You will be faithful to Jacob. You will have mercy on Abraham as you swore by an oath to our ancestors long ago.
--Micah 7
11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
--Matthew 24
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Sorry for offending you guys, just trying to get scriptural refuteing of what I posted. A little on what Molly posted. Have a good day.
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
This is the Israel of God.
Revelation 14:3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
This is a work in progress. As the angel said.
Revelation 7:2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
These are few and far between on the earth.
Jeremiah 3:13Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding
Who are those pastors?
Revelation 1:
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
These seven angels are the pastors over the churchs on the earth throughout time.
If you wish you may know their names, here they are from the book of Enoch, translated from the dead sea schrolls, and the source.
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/thebookofenoch.htm
XX. Names and Functions of the Seven Archangels.
20
1,2
And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is
3
over the world and over Tartarus. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men.
4,5
Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries. Michael, one
6
of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos. Saraqâêl,
7
one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. Gabriel, one of the holy
8
angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.
Hey PT
no offence taken here Bud.. :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Just bringing to attention the rules set down for hopefuly the benefit of all :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 18, 2008, 09:09:32 PM
Where do you find ANY scripture saying that the condemned are taken out of gehenna fire and integrated into the body of Christ after a limited time? Are you utilizing Paul's intentionally twisted verses over Christ clear truth's?
Hi, peacetroll, The issue that you raise definatly is not a simple one. The first thing I will point out is that not all biblical truths are directly and literally stated in scripture. For instance, would you say that if I light a match and burn a piece of paper that I have proven God exists? Sounds rather silly huh? Yet, what if I show you this verse?
Hebrews 12:29 "for our God is also a consuming fire." Sounds simple enough, right?
As far as Jesus speaking clear truths, not everything Jesus said was so clearly able to be understood. Understanding is granted, it is not about "our" power to comprehend.
Matthew 13:34 "All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them,"
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Who do you think controlled "but to them it is not given"?
Even the disciples had trouble understanding at times.
Matthew 15:15 - 16 "Now, answering, Peter said to Him, "Decipher for us the parable. And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?"
I'm not sure if it will help, but despite your demand that someone point out a scripture based upon your own criteria, I will let scripture be the guide.
What you propose causes a contradiction.
1Corinthians 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
If not all are to be reconciled, and some are to be destroyed, then the above verse cannot be true.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
--John 1
[as many as] "received" [him]
G3880
παραλαμβάνω
paralambanō
par-al-am-ban'-o
From G3844 and G2983; to receive near, that is, associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy to assume an office; figuratively to learn: - receive, take (unto, with).
G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
lam-ban'-o
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).
We see here that the word 'received,' in Greek 'paralambano,' is not a passive verb. It means to take hold from something that is near (para), to be active in the participation of receiving (lambano). It also connotes an intimacy with that from which one is receiving, because it is near. But, one must take the action of receiving it. It is only then that one is given 'the right' to become children of God.
"the right" [to become sons of God]
G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.
This is the barley harvest of passover, the firstfruits offered to God, the first resurrection of the dead, the white harvest which Jesus refers to in John 4.
John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
These are those who are born again of Spirit and offered to God as the sheaf offering. These are the firstborn of many brothers, the firstfruits, the church of the firstborn (Christ).
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
--Hebrews 12
These are being harvested all throughout this 'age.' Like PT says, I do believe they are small in number, and they follow the Lamb wherever he goes.
At the end of the age, the wheat will be harvested.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. --Matthew 13
We see a few things here. Jesus says, 'so shall it be in the end of this world.' The word translated 'world' here really means 'age.'
"world"
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Thus, we are currently in an age where the barley is being harvested; and the seeds are being planted, by the Christ and by the devil, producing two types of growth, wheat and tares, which are growing up side by side and look very much alike. The owner of the field/world ('kosmos") is allowing both to grow to maturity, at which time the wheat will be harvested into his barn and the tares burned. This is not the end of the story, but it will be the end of the age, which as far as I can tell, is the church age (or the Messianic age). This is the best of my understanding for now.
10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
--Revelation 22
Molly, you are right on in understanding what I have been saying. In this age few there be that find the truth, those who called and chosen, elect. Not of themselves, but by the will of God.
The Israel of God, are born from above, as John said, by the will of God, the workers in the field, both now and later.
As for all dying in Adam, true, and all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ, the new Adam. If a human is not in Adam to begin with, he will not be in Christ at the end.
John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[ This is all Adamic mankind]
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[ These are His saints and elect, predestinated by the will of God, Jesus Christ, for no man comes to God except by Jesus Christ]
I know it is hard to accept that the enemy did plant his own weeds in the field to destroy the crop.
Have a great day.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 22, 2008, 05:16:23 PM
If a human is not in Adam to begin with, he will not be in Christ at the end.
The scripture states that ALL are dying through Adam, so this condition has been met.
No they are not. You may ignor scripture all you wish but Jesus didn't say there were others planted, and by whom to hear Himself speak.
John 8:43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Matthew 12:30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Matthew 23: 23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
John the babtist said the same thing.
Luke 3:6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
I made a point of bringing up the prophesy of Balaam, to emphasize the fact that all the sons of Adam since the flood are decended from Noah's sons, all directly decended from Sheth.
Where then did one come from who would destroy all the children of Sheth???
Numbers 24:17
I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
There are only two [types] of Adam--the Adam of Genesis 2 and Jesus before the crucifixion. .
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
--1 Cor 15
Jesus is the last Adam. Up until Christ, Adam had a death sentence over his head. But after Christ, who is both the second Adam and the last Adam, there is now an end to Adam. Thus, there are no more 'Adams,' only those who are in Christ (or not).
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. --1 Cor 15
Since the last Adam was made a quickening spirit, his brothers likewise will be this new creation, the resurrected Christ, a quickening spirit--able to quicken others, that is, bring them to life--and able to come boldly before the throne of God through Christ, moving from earth to heaven and back.
51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.--John 1
"angels" [of God]
G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.
2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
PeaceTroll,
You believe that part of mankind came from Satan and therefore was not created by God and God is not the Father of those who came from Satan. If I am wrong on this please correct me.
Where do you think Satan came from, was he not created by God? Since God created Satan, doesn't that make God the Father of Satan as well? (Isaiah 42:5) says God created the heavens and earth and giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein. (Isaiah 44:24 says "I am the Lord that maketh all things.
If God created Satan, Adam and Eve, and if ALL humans came from "Eve who is the mother of all living" (Gen. 3:20)? if Satan was the father of part of the children of Eve wouldn't this make for mixed blood? Part God and part Satan? Wouldn't this make us half brothers and sisters of the children of Satan, since we all have the same mother? Sounds like confusion to me!!!
You haven't answered any of my questions, so I don't expect that you will answer this one either although I would like to hear the answer to this.
CHB
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 22, 2008, 06:06:12 PM
No they are not. You may ignor scripture all you wish but Jesus didn't say there were others planted, and by whom to hear Himself speak.
Hi peacetroll
I am not ignoring scripture, I'm just not agreeing with the way you are using scripture to make your point. Jesus words are not the only words in scripture to use to find the truths contained in the bible, that is the criteria you have come up with.
Your assertion contradicts the scripture that "as in adam "ALL" are dying". It does not say, as in Adam "some" are dying. Your point does not effectively explain the meaning of the verse, it only changes the words to fit your belief.
Have a great day
Paul
How does it contradict? All the decendents of Adam die, all. The children of this world die because they are transgressors of the laws given by their father from the womb. Adam chose to eat of the tree, who's fruit is death, they are born of it.
That's why Jesus said the lusts of your father you will do.
As to where the others came from, it is bluntly stated from the beginning.
Satan was not created, but was a portion of the original power/God that was divided in the very beginning (before the heavens were even formed). The original entity was both light and darkness and this did not please him therefore he did something nobody else can or could do, he divided the bad aspects of himself from the good creating Light and Darkness.
Then the original entity or mind associated with the light NOT the darkness. The darkness that was divided out was and is god too, but he is pure evil and selfish, the dark aspects of the original Elohim incarnate!
Our Father decided long before the division to become assocaited with the light...in fact he IS the light! Both are Elohim or gods (if you will).
It strongly believe it is a big mis-conception to believe Satan was made, he was made no more then the Father (of Light), was made.
Genesis 1
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
John 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John marked the children of Adam, the children of God this way.
John 3:19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Adam was called the son of God.
Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Eve was taken from the rib of Adam, a clone never called the daughter of God. Your spirit comes from your father. That's why the father's name was called the bloodline.
If Adam was not your father, as with Cain, and others decended from the angels, you are not a son of the Light. He is NOT your Father in heaven. From Abel's birth, it was 300 years until Adam had another son in his likeness, or bloodline, who's name was Seth. Who, as I have shown is the anscestor of all Adamic men on the earth, and it is his decendants that the septer rising out of Jacob is prophesied to utterly destroy. Why Jesus must return lest no flesh be saved alive.
Where can this person come from since he can't be one of the sons of Seth???
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 22, 2008, 11:25:42 PM
How does it contradict? All the decendents of Adam die, all. The children of this world die because they are transgressors of the laws given by their father from the womb. Adam chose to eat of the tree, who's fruit is death, they are born of it.
That's why Jesus said the lusts of your father you will do.
The wages of sin is death, everyone sins , So, you are correct that everyone dies.
The verse states the comparison of death and salvation. We all die as Adam, because we ALL sin. We ALL will be reconciled unto God through Jesus as Jesus was resurrected from the dead and died for the Sins of ALL.
If your point is that somewhere along the way, not everyone makes it back to God, then you contradict.
Quote
As to where the others came from, it is bluntly stated from the beginning.
Satan was not created, but divided out of God our Father, who chose to be the the Light.
Satan was created.
Isaiah 54:16 Behold! I, I created the artificer who blows into the fire of coal, and brings forth an implement for his occupation. And I, I created the ruiner to harm.
As I have shown, the sins of all in this world are forgiven, this does not mean all are going to be adopted into the body of Christ, or are the wheat, the harvest. All sins of this age are covered,
All will be resurected in the thousand years of Christ and the saints reign on earth.
Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
You know that it all the sins of this age are forgiven, this is not speaking of men's words now.
The fokkowing verses are saying just what Jesus said, The wheat is harvested first, then the tares are destroyed.
Revelation 14: 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. [The children of Adam during the thousand years]
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [ This is the millineum ]
16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [This is the destruction of the tares, the children of this world ]
Or, put another way below.
Revelation 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
At kast all this will be finished, and iniquity will be gone forever, and Death, the Darkness, Satan, is the last enemy destroyed, for ever and ever.
Quote18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [This is the destruction of the tares, the children of this world ]
I believe this would be the third harvest, the grape harvest, which would also correlate with tabernacles.
It's interesting to read there that the 'vine of the earth' is thrown into the winepress--becoming 'the grapes of wrath.'
But there's another vine--
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.--John 15
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 23, 2008, 12:51:56 AM
Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Everyone giving account in no way excludes anyone from the body of Christ. We are accountable, but God is responsible, when you can see this in a positive light, you will understand why all will be reconciled.
Quote
You know that it all the sins of this age are forgiven, this is not speaking of men's words now.
Just as the unpardonable sin is not forgiven in this age or the age to come, what is not said is that it is "never" to be forgiven. Jesus did emphasize forgiveness, why would there not be forgiveness for all, even if the "time" in which all is forgiven varies? It's not a case of do as I say not as I do with this.
Quote
The fokkowing verses are saying just what Jesus said, The wheat is harvested first, then the tares are destroyed.
The definition of Tares "An unwelcome or objectional element." All of humanity is in a process of being created in Gods image, it is not finished yet. Tares is the carnal flesh.
Good grief! Do you even consider the scriptures and how they correlate and back one another up? I know you want to defend the idea God will remix the Light with the Darkness, and if that were so then the whole body of God would perish.
What is it you don't see?
How do these two different scriptural discriptions not match?
Matther 13:24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
And,
Revelation 14: 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. [The children of Adam during the thousand years]
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [ This is the millineum ]
16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [This is the destruction of the tares, the children of this world ]
And these two.
Revelation 20:
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And.
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
I know it's hard to be objective about what someone presents that is the opposite of what we, as human beings want to be so, but remember, there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is Death. Wrong God. You may think I am a minister of error, but I put my trust in what Jesus said, as some of you may. All one can do is what he can.
Matthew 10:24The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 23, 2008, 03:31:19 AM
I knoe you want to defend the idea God will remix the Light with the Darkness, and if that were so then the whole body of God would perish.
I am very sorry peacetroll, my comments in this post will not be meant to slight you or be mean, but your effort in the post I quoted was against a point I did not make.
Ackknowledged, friend. I am only trying to show that what Jesus said is backed up everywhere in scripture, and to take any other explanation for what He said, that contradicts His repeated declarations is error. No matter where it comes from.
As it is written:Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
And you know WHO the word of God is.
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
So then who are we if we hear?
John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Why?
Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
There are no tares in Christ.
John 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 23, 2008, 04:20:32 AM
Ackknowledged, friend. I am only trying to show that what Jesus said is backed up everywhere in scripture, and to take any other explanation for what He said, that contradicts His repeated declarations is error. No matter where it comes from.
As it is written:Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
And you know WHO the word of God is.
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
So then who are we if we hear?
John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Why?
Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
There are no tares in Christ.
John 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 23, 2008, 04:20:32 AM
Ackknowledged, friend. I am only trying to show that what Jesus said is backed up everywhere in scripture, and to take any other explanation for what He said, that contradicts His repeated declarations is error. No matter where it comes from.
My main point has been that the words of Christ aid in understanding Gods message throughout the whole bible.
For instance, lets look at a couple of verses and see how easily a contradiction forms.
This point is made from the bias of eternal torment or annihilation.
Mt 12:32 "And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending."
For the most part most people only see "it shall not be pardoned" they pay little or no attention to the whole of the verse, let alone the whole bible.
1Timothy 2:4 "Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth."
If there is a sin that can "never" be pardoned, then ALL mankind cannot be saved. So, then the only way to resolve the contradiction is to say that even though the supreme authority of the universe "wills" something, man can stop God. Of course no where in scripture can you find man having that power, so then we have to say something else, such as Man chooses to go to hell, and other such nonsense. When in reality, no matter how it is worded, the words of 1 Timothy 2:4 are changed to fit the belief.
What has to be realized is that this verse does not contradict Matthew 12:32, it contradicts the traditional interpretation.
If we adjust our bias to universal salvation, they do not contradict any longer.
The wording in matthew tells the story. If it was a sin that could "never" be pardoned, there would be no reason to mention the age to come, especially when we know there is an age after the age to come.
We are in an age of wickedness, the age after that is Christs 1000 year reign, then there is another age in which we will be judged.
The lake of fire is where unbelievers will be dealt with. But that judgment purges them to be pure for entry into the kingdom (the wide gate).
This is where this verse comes into play.
Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
The key is what actually gets destroyed. The verse does not say, "leading away into eternal damnation". But we are "told" that this verse means not everyone gets into heaven.
The interpretation contradicts the bibles declaration that God "WILLS" all mankind to be saved.
Who can resist Gods will?
Ro 9:19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
So not matter how it is presented, the idea that only some men will be saved always raises a contradiction, always.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 19, 2008, 09:33:43 PMPaul knew Israel was infested with Indumeans and Kenites, as the scripture below states.
Exactly what determines whether a given person is Indmean or a Kenite? Can you spell it out specifically for me PT?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on May 23, 2008, 07:03:08 AM
If there is a sin that can "never" be pardoned, then ALL mankind cannot be saved. So, then the only way to resolve the contradiction is to say that even though the supreme authority of the universe "wills" something, man can stop God. Of course no where in scripture can you find man having that power, so then we have to say something else, such as Man chooses to go to hell, and other such nonsense. When in reality, no matter how it is worded, the words of 1 Timothy 2:4 are changed to fit the belief.
It certainly isn't from the Bible that people get the idea that any and all sin is infinite. Pay the relevant death for the specific sin and it's over with. God revealed in His law that if you steal one apple you owe 4 apples. If you steal something used for a livlehood payment is 7 fold. There are no infinite, never ending payment of apples! People are in the maze of a religious riddle, brain boggled by professional religionists! Gotta love 'em!
What did the apostles say of Jesus?
Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
No Adamic man can blaspheme the Holy Spirit, that means lying miracles that would decieve even the elect if that was possible, which it is not, as Jesus told us.
25And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
The antichrist will do these blasphemous miracles. To cause men to believe he is Messiah.
Revelation 13:13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Adam , or man, will be all harvested at the end of the age. Not saved, harvested. To be saved means you do not go through any part of the thousand year separating of tares and wheat. The saved are who the Spirit was talking to in the following verse.
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
That is because the following is true.
Revelation 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
These are the Saints of God, His holy angels who were born from above, not adopted, the workers in the field.
The Elect are saved, but are not on the earth at that time, they are resting and waiting for the end of the whole affair in heaven, as Paul said.
2 Thessalonians 1:7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
This is the thousand years in a nut shell, with the end flaming fire, utter destruction of the tares planted by the enemy to destroy the crop, Adam.
Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
12Jesus spoke to the Pharisees again. He said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will have a life filled with light and will never live in the dark." 13 The Pharisees said to him, "You testify on your own behalf, so your testimony isn't true." 14 Jesus replied to them, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is true because I know where I came from and where I'm going. However, you don't know where I came from or where I'm going. 15 You judge the way humans do. I don't judge anyone. 16 Even if I do judge, my judgment is valid because I don't make it on my own. I make my judgment with the Father who sent me. 17 Your own teachings say that the testimony of two people is true. 18 I testify on my own behalf, and so does the Father who sent me." 19 The Pharisees asked him, "Where is your father?" Jesus replied, "You don't know me or my Father. If you knew me, you would also know my Father." 20 Jesus spoke these words while he was teaching in the treasury area of the temple courtyard. No one arrested him, because his time had not yet come.
21 Jesus spoke to the Pharisees again. He said, "I'm going away, and you'll look for me. But you will die because of your sin. You can't go where I'm going." 22 Then the Jews asked, "Is he going to kill himself? Is that what he means when he says, 'You can't go where I'm going'?" 23 Jesus said to them, "You're from below. I'm from above. You're from this world. I'm not from this world. 24 For this reason I told you that you'll die because of your sins. If you don't believe that I am the one, you'll die because of your sins." 25 The Jews asked him, "Who did you say you are?" Jesus told them, "I am who I said I was from the beginning. 26 I have a lot I could say about you and a lot I could condemn you for. But the one who sent me is true. So I tell the world exactly what he has told me." 27 (The Jews didn't know that he was talking to them about the Father.) 28 So Jesus told them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you'll know that I am the one and that I can't do anything on my own. Instead, I speak as the Father taught me. 29 Besides, the one who sent me is with me. He hasn't left me by myself. I always do what pleases him." 30 As Jesus was saying this, many people believed in him.
31 So Jesus said to those Jews who believed in him, "If you live by what I say, you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 33 They replied to Jesus, "We are Abraham's descendants, and we've never been anyone's slaves. So how can you say that we will be set free?"
34 Jesus answered them, "I can guarantee this truth: Whoever lives a sinful life is a slave to sin. 35 A slave doesn't live in the home forever, but a son does. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be absolutely free. 37 I know that you're Abraham's descendants. However, you want to kill me because you don't like what I'm saying. 38 What I'm saying is what I have seen in my Father's presence. But you do what you've heard from your father."
39 The Jews replied to Jesus, "Abraham is our father." Jesus told them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did. 40 I am a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. But now you want to kill me. Abraham wouldn't have done that. 41 You're doing what your father does." The Jews said to Jesus, "We're not illegitimate children. God is our only Father." 42 Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me. After all, I'm here, and I came from God. I didn't come on my own. Instead, God sent me. 43 Why don't you understand the language I use? Is it because you can't understand the words I use? 44 You come from your father, the devil, and you desire to do what your father wants you to do. The devil was a murderer from the beginning. He has never been truthful. He doesn't know what the truth is. Whenever he tells a lie, he's doing what comes naturally to him. He's a liar and the father of lies. 45 So you don't believe me because I tell the truth. 46 Can any of you convict me of committing a sin? If I'm telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 The person who belongs to God understands what God says. You don't understand because you don't belong to God."
48 The Jews replied to Jesus, "Aren't we right when we say that you're a Samaritan and that you're possessed by a demon?" 49 Jesus answered, "I'm not possessed. I honor my Father, but you dishonor me. 50 I don't want my own glory. But there is someone who wants it, and he is the judge. 51 I can guarantee this truth: Whoever obeys what I say will never see death." 52 The Jews told Jesus, "Now we know that you're possessed by a demon. Abraham died, and so did the prophets, but you say, 'Whoever does what I say will never taste death.' 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets have also died. Who do you think you are?" 54 Jesus said, "If I bring glory to myself, my glory is nothing. My Father is the one who gives me glory, and you say that he is your God. 55 Yet, you haven't known him. However, I know him. If I would say that I didn't know him, I would be a liar like all of you. But I do know him, and I do what he says. 56 Your father Abraham was pleased to see that my day was coming. He saw it and was happy." 57 The Jews said to Jesus, "You're not even fifty years old. How could you have seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am." 59 Then some of the Jews picked up stones to throw at Jesus. However, Jesus was concealed, and he left the temple courtyard.
--John 8
[Jesus was] "concealed"
G2928
κρύπτω
kruptō
kroop'-to
A primary verb; to conceal (properly by covering): - hide (self), keep secret, secret [-ly].
QuoteAdam , or man, will be all harvested at the end of the age. Not saved, harvested. To be saved means you do not go through any part of the thousand year separating of tares and wheat. The saved are who the Spirit was talking to in the following verse.
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
51 I can guarantee this truth:
Whoever obeys what I say will never see death." --John 8
[never]
"see"[death]
G2334
θεωρέω
theōreōtheh-o-reh'-o
From a derivative of G2300 (perhaps by adverb of G3708); to be a spectator of, that is, discern,
(literally, figuratively [experience] or intensively [acknowledge]): - behold, consider, look on, perceive, see. Compare G3700.
G2300θεάομαι
theaomaitheh-ah'-om-ahee
A prolonged form of a primary verb;
to look closely at, that is, (by implication) to perceive (literally or figuratively);
by extension to visit: - behold, look (upon), see. Compare G3700.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 23, 2008, 06:19:06 PM
No Adamic man can blaspheme the Holy Spirit, that means lying miracles that would decieve even the elect if that was possible, which it is not, as Jesus told us.
Your putting the cart before the horse for two reasons, First, all descend from adam since he represents the beginning of humanity. Secondly, just because someone called to be the elect cannot be deceived once God converts them does not mean they were "never" deceived.
Satan deceives the whole world, not part of it.
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan, who is deceiving the whole inhabited earth. It was cast into the earth, and its messengers were cast with it.
In this thread I am not going to argue semantics over terms between saved and harvested. I am not against God building a heiarchy by predestining us to have differing purposes in the kingdom. The issue is whether the next human born or any human to ever exist is possibly predestined to not be with God in some manner one day. The answer is NO.
Any verse used to say so is an interpretation that will contradict another verse.
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the WHOLE World. God WILLS that all men be saved.
Any doctrine that states otherwise will reword those two scriptures to just name those, rather than explain their intended meaning. There is a difference. In my previous example "God is a Consuming fire" we can determine that God is not a literal fire, but the explanation of that phrase does not change how it is worded.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 22, 2008, 11:25:42 PM
How does it contradict? All the decendents of Adam die, all. The children of this world die because they are transgressors of the laws given by their father from the womb. Adam chose to eat of the tree, who's fruit is death, they are born of it.
That's why Jesus said the lusts of your father you will do.
As to where the others came from, it is bluntly stated from the beginning.
Satan was not created, but divided out of God our Father, who chose to be the the Light.
Genesis 1
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
John 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John marked the children of Adam, the children of God this way.
John 3:19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Adam was called the son of God.
Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Eve was taken from the rib of Adam, a clone never called the daughter of God. Your spirit comes from your father. That's why the father's name was called the bloodline.
If Adam was not your father, as with Cain, and others decended from the angels, you are not a son of the Light. He is NOT your Father in heaven. From Abel's birth, it was 300 years until Adam had another son in his likeness, or bloodline, who's name was Seth. Who, as I have shown is the anscestor of all Adamic men on the earth, and it is his decendants that the septer rising out of Jacob is prophesied to utterly destroy. Why Jesus must return lest no flesh be saved alive.
Where can this person come from since he can't be one of the sons of Seth???
This bit about all Adamic men are to be utterly destroyed because they are descendants of Seth is not stated in the Bible. Moreover, you've either garbled what you meant to say or I'm missing something that let it make sense, because it doesn't.
Your original propositions are never stated in Scripture. God separating the light from darkness is spelled all different even in Hebrew from Satan being a part of God that God seperated from Himself.
As well, nothing ever says Eve was polyandrous, or, that she had sex with the "serpent" whatever it was.
Nothing in the Bible says anybody but Noah, his 3 sons and all 4 of their wives were on the ark.
Don't claim another uncommon book in another canon says it because there is no authority for it. These aforementioned teachings are not in Genesis, the book that would speak of it if these things were to be believed.
Jesus says, "...the flesh profits nothing." You make it profit everything. (I know this is tangential, but do you believe a racially semitic male has any advantage before God?)
Doctrines not stated in the actual words of Scripture we are wise to avoid. To use the words of Scripture as inferring this or that, saying God meant some other thing by what He says: this is the path to deception and is what you are doing. It may only overthrow the faith of some that imbibe at it's poisoned well, but that is hardly any recommendation.
My concern is someone raised on viedeo games and less stable, maybe even yourself, might come to believe they can identify the humanoid tares and begin to act on it. Maybe this is already the case. Some have thought the Jews and or blacks were "of their father the devil." When I asked you before you didn't answer me if this was the case with you.
(Rom. 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
(Rom. 5:6) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
(Rom. 5:10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God.
(Rom. 5:18) the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.
The above scriptures show that Christ died for the ungodly, his enemies, and sinners. He did not die just for the elect. This applies to all mankind.
CHB
Why do you resort to the strategy that I have not posted the prophrsy of Balaam? You must not even take time to consider what is posted. I never said that Adam, man would be totally destroyed because Jesus [The Spirit of God ] said He would not let it happen.
Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
You, Reformer, pay no attention to the obvious if it is not what you want to espouse.
I present scriptural facts, backed up by other scriptures, and you tell me what you believe. You don't seem to know what being saved means. Saved from what? What is anyone being saved from if all are incorporated into the body of God, wherein is no darkness at all? God's name is Man. All men will be found written in the book of life. God is the second Adam.
You cannot argue with me about anything without the words of Christ, not what you think He said, or some interpetation of an apostles writing overiding what Jesus instructed, over and over. Adam is NOT the father of all, as Jesus explained when He said that some were the children of the Devil. You seem to have no ears to hear.
It's time to wake up and see what is going on. Redemption draweth neigh. He is even at the door.
Jesus did die for the ungodly, for all, Adam, and the others, but then there is the judgement. The separating. Nothing from this life has any bearing on that time. Every word then will have it's effect.
The difference is that if you wer of Adam, the wheat, the breath of God, you will die in Christ, if you are a tare, you will be accursed. A leopard cannot change it's spots.
All who go through that time are ressurected as they were spiritually in this time.
Revelation 22:10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
His reward is His Saints, the bride of Christ.
17"I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not near;
A star shall come forth from Jacob,
A scepter shall rise from Israel,
And shall crush through the forehead of Moab,
And tear down [destroy] all the sons of Sheth. --Numbers 24
The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes, [Until he comes to whom it belongs]
And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples. --Genesis 49:10
"Shiloh"
H7886
שׁילה
shîylôh
shee-lo'
From H7951; tranquil; Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah: - Shiloh.
Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
"lost" [sheep]
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Jeremiah 31:33
"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says YHVH: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. --Romans 2
14When Gentiles who have not the [divine] Law do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, since they do not have the Law.
15They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts and are operating there, with which their consciences (sense of right and wrong) also bear witness; and their [moral] [e]decisions (their arguments of reason, their condemning or approving thoughts) will accuse or perhaps defend and excuse [them]
--Romans 2
Hebrews 10:16]
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
1FOR THIS reason because I preached that you are thus built up together], I, Paul, [am] the prisoner of Jesus the Christ for the sake and on behalf of you Gentiles--
2Assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace (His unmerited favor) that was entrusted to me [to dispense to you] for your benefit,
3[And] that the mystery (secret) was made known to me and I was allowed to comprehend it by direct revelation, as I already briefly wrote you.
4When you read this you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ.
5[This mystery] was never disclosed to human beings in past generations as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles (consecrated messengers) and prophets by the [Holy] Spirit.
6[It is this:] that the Gentiles are now to be fellow heirs [with the Jews], members of the same body and joint partakers [sharing] in the same divine promise in Christ through [their acceptance of] the glad tidings (the Gospel).
7Of this [Gospel] I was made a minister according to the gift of God's free grace (undeserved favor) which was bestowed on me by the exercise (the working in all its effectiveness) of His power.
8To me, though I am the very least of all the saints (God's consecrated people), this grace (favor, privilege) was granted and graciously entrusted: to proclaim to the Gentiles the unending (boundless, fathomless, incalculable, and exhaustless) riches of Christ [wealth which no human being could have searched out],
9Also to enlighten all men and make plain to them what is the plan [regarding the Gentiles and providing for the salvation of all men] of the mystery kept hidden through the ages and concealed until now in [the mind of] God Who created all things by Christ Jesus.
10[The purpose is] that through the church the complicated, many-sided wisdom of God in all its infinite variety and innumerable aspects might now be made known to the angelic rulers and authorities (principalities and powers) in the heavenly sphere.
11This is in accordance with the terms of the eternal and timeless purpose which He has realized and carried into effect in [the person of] Christ Jesus our Lord,
12In Whom, because of our faith in Him, we dare to have the boldness (courage and confidence) of free access (an unreserved approach to God with freedom and without fear).
13So I ask you not to lose heart [not to faint or become despondent through fear] at what I am suffering in your behalf. [Rather glory in it] for it is an honor to you.
14For this reason [seeing the greatness of this plan by which you are built together in Christ], I bow my knees before the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15For Whom every family in heaven and on earth is named [that Father from Whom all fatherhood takes its title and derives its name].
16May He grant you out of the rich treasury of His glory to be strengthened and reinforced with mighty power in the inner man by the [Holy] Spirit [Himself indwelling your innermost being and personality].
17May Christ through your faith [actually] dwell (settle down, abide, make His permanent home) in your hearts! May you be rooted deep in love and founded securely on love,
18That you may have the power and be strong to apprehend and grasp with all the saints [God's devoted people, the experience of that love] what is the breadth and length and height and depth [of it];
19[That you may really come] to know [practically, through experience for yourselves] the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge [without experience]; that you may be filled [through all your being] unto all the fullness of God [may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself]!
20Now to Him Who, by (in consequence of) the [action of His] power that is at work within us, is able to [carry out His purpose and] do superabundantly, far over and above all that we [dare] ask or think [infinitely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, hopes, or dreams]--
21To Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever. Amen
--Ephesians 3
1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
--Colossians 3
[your life is] "hid" [with Christ in God]
G2928
κρύπτω
kruptō
kroop'-to
A primary verb; to conceal (properly by covering): - hide (self), keep secret, secret [-ly].
Quote
What is anyone being saved from if all are incorporated into the body of God?
First, in Romans we find the state of mankind and what we are saved from.
Romans 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
If you look up vanity and read all that the word signifies, we see mankind in a nutshell.
Secondly when you claim that Jesus talking about the devil being some of humanities father you are looking too literally at scripture. How can we tell when it is literal or figurative? When we take the whole bible into account and see that the literal interpretation is contradicted by something else we need to study why.
We have to believe scripture as it is written first and go from there. When the bible says "God wills all mankind to be saved" and it also asks "who can resist Gods will" (intention). Then anything that says Gods will can be changed is false.
So how do we know that the devil being our father is figurative for our spiritual state and that some are not literal descendants?
The first bit of evidence is in John 8, Jesus is speaking to the Jews who say they are descendants of Abraham, if you follow the dialog Jesus shows that they are not yet converted.
Jn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
If the Jews are Gods chosen people, and sons of the devil at the same time, then that creates another contradiction in your analysis. Gods chosen will not be with him because they are sons of the Devil?
Another piece of evidence is this verse.
Mt 16:23 Now, being turned, He said to Peter, "Go away behind Me, satan! A snare are you to Me, thatfor you are not disposed to that which is of God, but that which is of men."
So, are you going to say that Peter is Satan and that the sons of the devil are Peters Children?
One other verse that gives evidence that unbelievers will be purified from evil rather than being destroyed or eternally tormented is this.
1Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
oh and does this mean the "person" or "who" they are gets burnt up?
No.
1Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Jesus was simply stating that what Peter was saying was in opposition to what He was born into the world for, not that Peter was from the Devil or was the Devil. Satan is the hebrew word for adversary, or opponent. Your use of it as a proof of all men being from the same Father is fraudulent. As to all th other things in the post, I have already posted the meaning of what is written many times. I DO take the words of Jesus Christ litterally when He explains a parable, or tells what will occur in the future.
The definition of the word satan is as follows.
Easton's 1897 bible dictionary
Adversary
(Heb. satan), an opponent or foe (1 Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Luke 13:17); one that speaks against another, a complainant (Matt. 5:25; Luke 12:58); an enemy (Luke 18:3), and specially the devil (1 Pet. 5:8).
Hitchcock's bible names dictionary
Satan
contrary; adversary; enemy; accuser
Smith's bible names dictionary
Satan
The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in (1 Samuel 29:4; 2 Samuel 19:22; 1 Kings 6:4;11:14,23,25; Numbers 22:22,33; Psalms 109:6) This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in (Matthew 16:23) It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in (Job 1:6;;2:1; Zechariah 2:1) and without the article in (1 Chronicles 21:1) It is with the scriptural revelation on the subject that we are here concerned; and it is clear, from this simple enumeration of passages, that it is to be sought in the New rather than in the Old Testament. I. The personal existence of a spirit of evil is clearly revealed in Scripture; but the revelation is made gradually, in accordance with the progressiveness of God's method. In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent. In the book of Job we find for the first time a distinct mention of "Satan" the "adversary" of Job. But it is important to remark the emphatic stress laid on his subordinate position, on the absence of all but delegated power, of all terror and all grandeur in his character. It is especially remarkable that no power of spiritual influence, but only a power over outward circumstances, is attributed to him. The captivity brought the Israelites face to face with the great dualism of the Persian mythology, the conflict of Ormuzd with Ahriman, the co-ordinate spirit of evil; but it is confessed by all that the Satan of Scripture bears no resemblance to the Persian Ahriman. His subordination and inferiority are as strongly marked as ever. The New Testament brings plainly forward the power and the influence of Satan, From the beginning of the Gospel, when he appears as the personal tempter of our Lord through all the Gospels, Epistles, and Apocalypse, it is asserted or implied, again and again, as a familiar and important truth. II. Of the nature and original state of Satan, little is revealed in Scripture. He is spoken of as a "spirit" in (Ephesians 2:2) as the prince or ruler of the "demons" in (Matthew 12:24-26) and as having "angels" subject to him in (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 12:7,9) The whole description of his power implies spiritual nature and spiritual influence. We conclude therefore that he was of angelic nature, a rational and spiritual creature, superhuman in power, wisdom and energy; and not only so, but an archangel, one of the "princes" of heaven. We cannot, of course, conceive that anything essentially and originally evil was created by God. We can only conjecture, therefore, that Satan is a fallen angel, who once had a time of probation, but whose condemnation is now irrevocably fixed. As to the time cause and manner of his fall Scripture tells us scarcely anything; but it describes to us distinctly the moral nature of the evil one. The ideal of goodness is made up of the three great moral attributes of God--love, truth, and purity or holiness; combined with that spirit which is the natural temper of the finite and dependent we find creature, the spirit of faith. We find, accordingly, opposites of qualities are dwelt upon as the characteristics of the devil. III. The power of Satan over the soul is represented as exercised either directly or by his instruments. His direct influence over the soul is simply that of a powerful and evil nature on those in whom lurks the germ of the same evil. Besides this direct influence, we learn from Scripture that Satan is the leader of a host of evil spirits or angels who share his evil work, and for whom the "everlasting fire is prepared." (Matthew 25:41) Of their origin and fall we know no more than of his. But one passage (Matthew 12:24-26)--identifies them distinctly with the "demons" (Authorized Version "devils") who had power to possess the souls of men. They are mostly spoken of in Scripture in reference to possession; but in (Ephesians 6:12) find them sharing the enmity to God and are ascribed in various lights. We find them sharing the enmity to God and man implied in the name and nature of Satan; but their power and action are little dwelt upon in comparison with his. But the evil one is not merely the "prince of the demons;" he is called also the "prince of this world" in (John 12:31;14:30;16:11) and even the. "god of this world" in (2 Corinthians 4:4) the two expressions being united in (Ephesians 6:12) This power he claimed for himself, as the delegated authority, in the temptation of our Lord, (Luke 4:6) and the temptation would have been unreal had he spoken altogether falsely. The indirect action of Satan is best discerned by an examination of the title by which he is designated in Scripture. He is called emphatically ho diabolos, "the devil." The derivation of the word in itself implies only the endeavor to break the bonds between others and "set them at variance;" but common usage adds to this general sense the special idea of "setting at variance by slander." In the application of the title to Satan, both the general and special senses should be kept in view. His general object is to break the bonds of communion between God and man, and the bonds of truth and love which bind men to each other. The slander of God to man is best seen in the words of (Genesis 3:4,5) They attribute selfishness and jealousy to the Giver of all good. The slander of man to God is illustrated by the book of Job. (Job 1:9-11;2:4,5) IV. The method of satanic action upon the heart itself. It may be summed up in two words--temptation and possession. The subject of temptation is illustrated, not only by abstract statements, but also by the record of the temptations of Adam and of our Lord. It is expressly laid down, as in (James 1:2-4) that "temptation," properly so called, i.e. "trial," is essential to man, and is accordingly ordained for him and sent to him by God, as in (Genesis 22:1) It is this tentability of man, even in his original nature, which is represented in Scripture as giving scope to the evil action of Satan. But in the temptation of a fallen nature Satan has a greater power. Every sin committed makes a man the "servant of sin" for the future, (John 8:34; Romans 6:16) it therefore creates in the spirit of man a positive tendency to evil which sympathizes with, and aids, the temptation of the evil one. On the subject of possession, see Demoniacs.
The word Devil, has the following meaning.
Smith's bible names dictionary
Devil
(slanderer). The name describes Satan as slandering God to man and man to God. The former work is of course, a part of his great work of temptation to evil and is not only exemplified but illustrated as to its general nature and tendency by the narrative of Gen. 3. The other work, the slandering or accusing men before God, is the imputation of selfish motives, (Job 1:9,10) and its refutation is placed in the self-sacrifice of those "who loved not their own lives unto death."
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 25, 2008, 01:57:57 AM
Jesus was simply stating that what Peter was saying was in opposition to what He was born into the world for, not that Peter was from the Devil or was the Devil. Satan is the hebrew word for adversary, or opponent.
Yes, I know this.
Quote
Your use of it as a proof of all men being from the same Father is fraudulent.
I could be mistaken in the way I use scriptures to validate a point I am making , but you are entirely wrong if you believe it to be fraudulent.
I pointed out that it is evidence of how the bible depicts Satan as a father. Am I mistaken in seeing your words that you believe a percentage of humanity is literally spawned from Satan himself?
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As to all th other things in the post, I have already posted the meaning of what is written many times. I DO take the words of Jesus Christ litterally when He explains a parable, or tells what will occur in the future.
Christs words to Peter was neither a Parable or about the future. I'm wondering why that is criteria to not take them literally?
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan[H7854] answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. --Job 1
This word, 'Satan', is a name referring to a specific being who comes into the presence of God along with the sons of God. We see here that he is 'the arch enemy of good.' Being the arch enemy of good is not a wishy washy position of someone who is part good, part bad, part flesh, part spirit---it is an extreme description which cannot be misinterpreted. Satan is God's opponent.
"Satan"
H7854
שׂטן
śâṭân
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.
We see that a slight change in the name (including pronounciation) gives a more general meaning that could be applied to anyone who is [temporarily] going against God's purpose or God's people as an opponent, manifesting this characteristic of Satan.
"satan"
H7853
שׂטן
śâṭan
saw-tan'
A primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse: - (be an) adversary, resist.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on May 24, 2008, 10:55:09 PM
Quote
What is anyone being saved from if all are incorporated into the body of God?
First, in Romans we find the state of mankind and what we are saved from.
Romans 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
If you look up vanity and read all that the word signifies, we see mankind in a nutshell.
Secondly when you claim that Jesus talking about the devil being some of humanities father you are looking too literally at scripture. How can we tell when it is literal or figurative? When we take the whole bible into account and see that the literal interpretation is contradicted by something else we need to study why.
We have to believe scripture as it is written first and go from there. When the bible says "God wills all mankind to be saved" and it also asks "who can resist Gods will" (intention). Then anything that says Gods will can be changed is false.
So how do we know that the devil being our father is figurative for our spiritual state and that some are not literal descendants?
The first bit of evidence is in John 8, Jesus is speaking to the Jews who say they are descendants of Abraham, if you follow the dialog Jesus shows that they are not yet converted.
Jn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
If the Jews are Gods chosen people, and sons of the devil at the same time, then that creates another contradiction in your analysis. Gods chosen will not be with him because they are sons of the Devil?
Another piece of evidence is this verse.
Mt 16:23 Now, being turned, He said to Peter, "Go away behind Me, satan! A snare are you to Me, thatfor you are not disposed to that which is of God, but that which is of men."
So, are you going to say that Peter is Satan and that the sons of the devil are Peters Children?
One other verse that gives evidence that unbelievers will be purified from evil rather than being destroyed or eternally tormented is this.
1Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
oh and does this mean the "person" or "who" they are gets burnt up?
No.
1Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Paul this was a very good post, even I learned a few things from it. I also had this thought after reading your post.
Jesus was speaking to the Jew's when he said "you are of your Father the Devil". They said "we be Abraham's seed" and "Abraham is our Father". They knew who they descended from. Now the Isarelites are the "elect", (Isaiah 45:4) Abraham was an Israelite who God said "all the nations would be blessed by". The Bible says that "
all Israel will be saved", this would include those who Jesus was speaking to. PeaceTroll, can you not see a contridiction here compared to what you believe?
Here is what Jesus meant when he said "you are of your Father the Devil.
(1Cor. 4:15) Paul is asking, "yet have we not many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
(Rom 4:11) Speaking of Abraham "that he might be the father of all them that believe".
It was because of their unbelief that Jesus said Satan was their father
CHB
Romans 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
"vanity"
G3153
ματαιότης
mataiotēs
mat-ah-yot'-ace
From G3152; inutility; figuratively transientness; morally depravity: - vanity.
G3152
μάταιος
mataios
mat'-ah-yos
From the base of G3155; empty, that is, (literally) profitless, or (specifically) an idol: - vain, vanity.
G3155
μάτην
matēn
mat'-ane
Accusative case of a derivative of the base of G3145 (through the idea of tentative manipulation, that is, unsuccessful search, or else of punishment); folly, that is, (adverbially) to no purpose: - in vain.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.--Genesis 1
Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Quote from: reFORMer on May 23, 2008, 10:48:15 PM
Your original propositions are never stated in Scripture.
1.) God separating the light from darkness is spelled all different even in Hebrew from Satan being a part of God that God seperated from Himself.
2.) As well, nothing ever says Eve was polyandrous, or, that she had sex with the "serpent" whatever it was.
3.) Nothing in the Bible says anybody but Noah, his 3 sons and all 4 of their wives were on the ark.
Don't claim another uncommon book in another minor canon says it because there is no authority for it. These aforementioned teachings are not in Genesis, the book that would speak of it if these things were to be believed.
4.) Jesus says, "...the flesh profits nothing." You make it profit everything. (I know this is tangential, but do you believe a racially semitic male has any advantage before God?)
Doctrines not stated in the actual words of Scripture we are wise to avoid. To use the words of Scripture as inferring this or that, saying God meant some other thing by what He says: this is the path to deception and is what you are doing. It may only overthrow the faith of some that imbibe at it's poisoned well, but that is hardly any recommendation.
My concern is someone raised on viedeo games and less stable, maybe even yourself, might come to believe they can identify the humanoid tares and begin to act on it. Maybe this is already the case.
5.) Some have thought the Jews and or blacks were "of their father the devil." When I asked you before you didn't answer me if this was the case with you.
I repeat this with added numbers to request again the impossible: direct statements (not inferences) quoted from Scripture that actually state in Scripture's own words what you are saying. It only takes 5 verses. Maybe that these do not exist might clue you in to a slight adjustment to be more in accordance with the truth.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 24, 2008, 04:26:17 AMAdam is NOT the father of all as Jesus explained when He said that some were the children of the Devil. You seem to have no ears to hear.
Jesus did not say that those men were not sons of Adam.
Here is what Jesus said about them:
1. They ARE Abraham's seed (making them sons of Adam).
2. Abraham IS their father (making them sons of Adam).
3. Abraham IS NOT their father.
4. They are NOT the children of Abraham.
5. The devil was their father.
Items 2 & 3 are direct contradictions. What gives? [1-2] refer to physical birth. [3-5] refer to spiritual birth.
The are two kinds of birth and two kinds of seed.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
It would appear that you have put all your eggs in the basket of books approved by the Catholic church long ago, as if those self seeking power grabbers were an authority on what books and what prophets were inspired by the Holy Spirit. The same organization that murdered all other christians as heretics, many millions of them.
Augustine, poor soul who mutilated himself to stop lust, cutting off the offending member and casting it from him is your guide about who the sons of God were who saw the daughters of men and lusted after them, saying that meant Seth? Good luck with all the deep things of the mystery of Godliness.
One last thing about disregarding other sources of information than those approved by the catholics and King James in the 1600s.
You think the book of Enoch is fiction? Or the wisdom of Solomon, and many others.
Both Jude and paul made reference to the book of Enoch, but you ignor it. Odd if you think Paul was correct isn't it?
Here again is what Paul said.
2 Thessalonians 1:7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Here is what Jude said, quoting Enoch directly.
Jude 1:14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 27, 2008, 07:35:34 PM
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
I would question the use or validity of the word everlasting in the above verse. The bible has a lot of evidence that punishment is not endless. The use of the word everlasting in the old testament concerning the levitical priesthood causes an unreconcilable contradiction since the levitical priesthood is not endless.
The translation of the bible has probably been focused more upon for word accuracy because of the canon, but I suspect the same errors in translation occur in the books not in the canon.
Regaurdless of what you believe to be the correct blood lines or the validity of writings you wish to use, they do not detract from two things. Adam representing the beginning of all mankind and reconciliation to God of ALL things.
Exactly what I have posted, Adam is the fleshly originator of all MEN. Jesus is reconciling all HIS creation, Adam, to Himself. All human beings are not included in Man who is in heaven. In Him is no darkness at all. He is the Light which no Man has seen or can see. When our change comes, we will see Him as He is.
The priesthood you spoke of was under the covenant with Death, and as Jesus said, he is a liar and the father of it. He has no truth in him. Paul told you who the priesthood of the true God is.
Here is the greatest lie ever told.
Leviticus 18:5
Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Nehemiah 9:29
And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law: yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them;) and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.
Jesus christ did exactly that and died on the tree. Ripping that vail, the Darkness, between God our Father and Man by Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.
As jesus said.
John 8:46
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Paul said this of this.
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
He also said this of the wicked spiritual powers over this world.
1 Corinthians 2:7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
By the way, you didn't answer about why you ignor Enoch, and many other books the apostles used as authorities because you only use the books approved by the roman church, to justify what they did, or King James approved to break away from the pope and head, his own church, for his own reasons.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 27, 2008, 09:59:53 PM
Exactly what I have posted, Adam is the fleshly originator of all MEN. Jesus is reconciling all HIS creation, Adam, to Himself. All human beings are not included in Man who is in heaven. In Him is no darkness at all. He is the Light which no Man has seen or can see. When our change comes, we will see Him as He is.
By the way, you didn't answer about why you ignor Enoch, and many other books the apostles used as authorities because you only use the books approved by the roman church, to justify what they did, or King James approved to break away from the pope and head, his own church, for his own reasons.
Well, it is possible I have been unclear in my postings, I am not sure.
I personally am not saying any of mankind in "human" form will be in heaven, reconciled to God, or however all that is explained or defined. I am saying that the spirit, essence, conscience (the spirit that God breathed into mankind), of every human being to ever exist will, as these earthly bodies will go away in any event. I also include All demons , angels, and Satan and any spirit God created, formed, thought of, in this reconciliation of the spirits.
As far as ignoring the other books. I have read some of the agnostic writings, I have not studied them in any precise detail. Not that I never will, but that the basics of Gods love, universalism and our journey with him is not changed to any significant degree by doing so.
Even if Jesus was married, even if Jesus Sinned, the outcome of the purpose for Jesus life was fulfilled and no uncanonized writing will change that. What I just said would not be accepted in any church I have ever been in, but the end result of Jesus life does not change one iota.
I cannot answer many questions about the past, the character or morality of anyone of the process of the canon, oppression, murder, the use of the bible for evil. I do not concern myself with that for two reasons. One I spent half my life blaming others for my problems, I want the rest of my life to learn how to love, and I am learning to see the whole bible as on giant account of love. Secondly, the word of God is larger than the deeds and opinions of men and I have been drawn to believe the bible, study it and somehow, maybe, one day be perfected as the bible speaks of.
Beyond that, if someone chooses to use the deeds or writings of past christians, atheists, agnostics, greeks, romans, hobbits, or looney tunes, to form whatever belief they have, then I must concede that it is for a reason and is beyond my power to control.
I offer my opinions on what I happen to believe because I feel compelled to do so.
Even if Jesus sinned???
Then there is no hope for anything but death. It is still as it was when Solomon wrote the following under the ministration of the Darkness, Death.
Ecclesiastes 12:5
Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
Ecclesiastes 4
1So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.
2Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.
Ecclesiastes 9
1For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.
2All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
3This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Thank God, through Jesus Christ that for the sons of Adam, His sheep, His wheat, this is not the case.
Jesus did not create the Darkness, nor deamons, nor fallen angels, nor the tares. These are all of the kingdom of Satan, the Darkness, which has always been.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 27, 2008, 11:05:15 PM
Even if Jesus sinned???
Well, I am placing this suggestion your way, you wish to acknowledge writings that are not in the canon and I believe there are some that suggest that Jesus sinned, so I suppose you would agree with the canon in that regaurd, correct?
Quote
Jesus did not create the Darkness, nor deamons, nor fallen angels, nor the tares. These are all of the kingdom of Satan, the Darkness, which has always been.
You are correct. Jesus did not create Darkness, demons, fallen angels(satan and demons were created, they were not perfect and then fell) , or tares.
God the father created and designed all existance.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Satan was given power over certain things in Gods creation and Satan is always subject to what God allows (read Job).
To quote Enoch is not the same as quoting some so-called Book of Enoch. That it may have some of the same words as Paul used (that or similar ideas, you didn't say) my first guess would be it was quoting Paul. It isn't too important since that book has not been accepted by Christians in general. Like 3rd and 4th Esdras that contain some interesting things and are accepted in part of the ritualistic eastern religious systems, not all of the Christians have accepted them as Scripture. They have the 66 books that may be counted other ways, as 49 books, but they are the books that have for 2 thousand years been accepted among all Christians. There have been questions about Revelation and James for instance, but they stayed. Some have added Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus and the like. One sect has Enoch. This is not meant to be an exhaustive list of such "2nd tier" writings. They have never been accepted by all the believers. They therefore are demonstrated to not have the authority. Of course there are other writings ancient and modern that may be of benefit to read. The Gospel of Thomas may contain some genuine sayings of Jesus not in the Scripture; but, because it was not preserved in use across the millenia it cannot qualify as canonical. It is a tradition among some that there are as many as 12 other writings kept out of the publicly recognized collection by God. He gets them into the hands of the righteous if they need them. That's an interesting possibility. But the ones accepted among us all are enough.
66 is the number of parts in the temple menorah. It is His word that God anoints and upon which the flame rests.
Quote from: reFORMer on May 27, 2008, 11:28:30 PM
66 is the number of parts in the temple menorah. It is His word that God anoints and upon which the flame rests.
James, this statement got me curious. Found this little nugget that goes along with what you're saying..."this menorah was made from a 66 pound piece of pure gold. Pure gold was refined seven times." As for this whole discussion, IMO, revelation is
within scripture, and can always be tested
with scripture...and not just what pieces of it we may decide is inspired according to our own personal paradigm. "Reading the white" (revelation) is
in the scripture, not against.
God's blessing, James.
Conjecture about nothing at all. The Magen David has six outer six middle and six inner points, do you understand that? What has any of this to do with what we have been discussing?
PT, you've had more truth spoken to you than many people get in their lifetime, yet you answer in cryptic, unfriendly responses that continue your own circular reasoning.
If you don't see the point, then I'll tell you. It has to do with scripture being God's Word, that it's inspired...that God's hand is all over it, in its design, purpose, and revelation. Scripture...not just whichever parts you, me, or anyone else might decide in our own carnal mind what parts we'll believe. I've personally responded directly to you that scripture, taken in context is not contradictory. Are you in the group that throws out much of it so your theology fits what you want to think?
Where's all your anger coming from, PT?
Jabcat, I believed as you do 20 years ago. The greatest thing I knew was that God loved us. I was content disregarding and qualifying the Living Word, Jesus Christ, for what I precieved Paul was teaching. I did not realize why some parts of humanity was litteraly without humanity, when Jesus had explained it from the beginning.
I was ignorant of so many other books from other prophets who were in opposition to the accepted books of organized religion, and forgot that the whole story of the new testament was written in the blood of JESUS. It is called the gospel of Jesus Christ, yet I was not listening to Him. He said come learn of ME. So that is what I have done my best to do.
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Paul said to do the same thing, but if he sent any letters beyond Hebrews, speaking directly of these things, they were long ago destroyed.
Hebrews 5:9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by
reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.
"For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat." Job 34:3
Two of the most sublime books ever written in any language, each like the other side of the same coin to one another are Ephesians and Colossians. If anyone reads them, giving some attention and patient study, other than blinding the heart with unbelief for whatever pupose from above, it seems impossible any could deny experiencing God's own Word.
Nothing ever before in the history of the world expressed such heights of revelation of ultimate identity, such explanation of Divine nature, such superlative and unsurpassable descriptions of being as Colossians. I know of actually nothing since then containing such profound expressions of being, which in their place describe that born of God, though I suppose some borrowings must exist. Pray Colossians and see what happens.
Paul is in agreement with Jesus and the rest of the apostles. It has been suggested he has the farthest reaching revelation of anything in the rest of Scripture. This is particularly true of 1 Corinthians 15. Who obeys 1 Corinthians 14? or 13 even? Please, you ask of us the impossible: to turn against beloved Paul.
Except you have the Holy Spirit demonstrating His presence with miraculous signs I know you don't well understand by experience God's love. If you did you could not reject reasonable solutions to Scripture question regarding Jesus actually being The Savior of All. What gatherings of believers as an every member functioning body under the headship of Christ have you raised up? Have you ever even been a part of such a Divine free-for-all?
Reject Paul? For the slops you're offering!? O dear God, won't somebody please pray!?
Slops?? Oh well, as Jesus said:
Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Did Jesus say He was the savior of all??? Or was that Paul??? Could it be that Paul knew what he meant by all??? And you do not???
Why did Jesus say he was the Son of Man which is in heaven???
And state that He had declared the Father's name???
Hi Peacetroll,
did Jesus teach Universal Salvation? I believes so. Check out this link:
Did Jesus Teach The Salvation Of All? (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2743.0)
Quote from: PeaceTroll
Why did Jesus say he was the Son of Man which is in heaven???
PeaceTroll,
I don't understand your reasoning here. Jesus was human and born of a woman, legally Joseph was his father while he was on earth, of course he was the Son of man and Son of God. Yes, Jesus was a man, now what are you saying here?
CHB
The "slops" to which I refer is dumping Paul (though I don't see what that has to do with it) and diametric opposition to Jesus' doctrine by holding what flesh you're born with determines who you are, profiting everything or condemning in being born. You noticeably never answered whether you considered Jews or Negroes to be examples of "Tare" humanoids, unsavable Satan's spawn. Even if you did not subscribe to such wicked error yourself, what you teach is right up Nazi's and Skinhead's alley.
I don't know which individual person is a tare. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Matthew 7:16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
You do not even hear what I teach, let alone are you a judge of it's source.
As for Paul being opposed to most of Jesus says, that is not true. If you don't know what Paul is really talking about then you make that a fact.
The flesh does profit nothing, for it falls short of being and doing perfectly, and can not please God. But there is a bloodline from Adam, the son of God by His breath that was the wheat, the crop He planted. This crop will be perfected in Jesus Christ, when He is all and in all.
There is a bloodline from the enemy, the tares, planted to destroy the crop, who's end is foreordained, as you know Jesus said plainly.
I noticed you did not answer the question I posed to you about who said all men would be saved, Paul or Jesus, so which one do you think is the authority, the actual word of God?
Quote from: PeaceTroll
I noticed you did not answer the question I posed to you about who said all men would be saved, Paul or Jesus, so which one do you think is the authority, the actual word of God?
I have noticed that you quote Paul sometimes to prove your point of view but then talk as if Paul's teachings are not valid or the word of God. Since you feel like Paul's words are not the word of God or not valid why even use his words in your post?
I don't think you have answered a single question I have asked. Is it because you don't know the answers? I post these questions mostly for the benefit of others.
CHB
Quote from: reFORMer on May 29, 2008, 10:54:48 PM
The "slops" to which I refer is 1.) dumping Paul (though I don't see what that has to do with it) and 2.) diametric opposition to Jesus' doctrine by holding what flesh you're born with determines who you are, profiting everything or condemning in being born. 3.) You noticeably never answered whether you considered Jews or Negroes to be examples of "Tare" humanoids, unsavable Satan's spawn. Even if you did not subscribe to such wicked error yourself, what you teach is right up Nazi's and Skinhead's alley.
I numbered the 3 principle points in the quotation above that I see you verified, though you misunderstood point two which describes your position toward Jesus, not Paul's or mine.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 30, 2008, 12:51:32 AM
I don't know which individual person is a tare. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.
Your still not answering whether you believe certain commonly identified people groups like Jews or negros are some of your "tares."
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 30, 2008, 12:51:32 AM
You do not even hear what I teach, let alone are you a judge of it's source.
I hear well enough. I simply disagree. Specially your racism. Like who is Godly or antichrist is determined by the flesh's DNA. This is precisely what I said in point "2.)" above: "diametric opposition to Jesus' doctrine by holding what flesh you're born with determines who you are, profiting everything or condemning in being born."
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 30, 2008, 12:51:32 AM
As for Paul being opposed to most of Jesus says, that is not true. If you don't know what Paul is really talking about then you make that a fact.
The flesh does profit nothing, for it falls short of being and doing perfectly, and can not please God. But there is a bloodline from Adam, the son of God by His breath that was the wheat, the crop He planted. This crop will be perfected in Jesus Christ, when He is all and in all.
There is a bloodline from the enemy, the tares, planted to destroy the crop, who's end is foreordained, as you know Jesus said plainly.
REPEAT: I hear well enough. I simply disagree. Specially your racism. Like who is Godly or antichrist is determined by the flesh's DNA. This is precisely what I said in point "2.)" above: "diametric opposition to Jesus' doctrine by holding what flesh you're born with determines who you are, profiting everything or condemning in being born."
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 30, 2008, 12:51:32 AM
I noticed you did not answer the question I posed to you about who said all men would be saved, Paul or Jesus, so which one do you think is the authority, the actual word of God?
It seems pointless answering a faulty question that points to the enquirer's ignorance, specially considering his past record. Jesus and Paul speak this that is God's will. It is also personally known by those who love Him and His creation.
This bogus doctrine, not in the Holy Scripture (not subject to what is written,) is truly disgusting. Being thoroughly carnal, besides wrong, it is of death and at war (enmity) with God according to His Word:
5 For
they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because
the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is
not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then
they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
---Romans 8:5-8
24 The Jews surrounded him. They asked him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I've told you, but you don't believe me. The things that I do in my Father's name testify on my behalf. 26 However, you don't believe because you're not my sheep. 27 My sheep respond to my voice, and I know who they are. They follow me, 28 and I give them eternal life. They will never be lost, and no one will tear them away from me. 29 My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than everyone else, and no one can tear them away from my Father. 30 The Father and I are one."
--John 10
Who are the sheep?
Matthew 15:24
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
27 My sheep respond to my voice, and I know who they are. They follow me, 28 and I give them eternal life. They will never be lost, and no one will tear them away from me. 29 My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than everyone else, and no one can tear them away from my Father. 30 The Father and I are one."
--John 10
Who are the sheep? They've always been the same people.
Genesis 17:4
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:5
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham ["father of a multitude"]; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
"nations"
H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
Romans 4:18
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.--Genesis 3
"skin"
H5785
עור
‛ôr
ore
From H5783; skin (as naked); by implication hide, leather: - hide, leather, skin.
He hid them in the skin of beasts, in nakedness.
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: --1 Cor 15
They are hidden from the foundation of the world until the resurrected Christ.
Colossians 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
I didn't say what Paul said was true, if you understand what he said. If you don't understand much of what he says becomes a deciever, as it was designed to do.
Peter warned of Pauls teachings and none takes it to heart.
1 Corinthians1:30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 6: 1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
All the questions you say I have not answered are all over the various posts I have made, yet you don't seem to see or hear it. Do you read them? If you do then why would you be asking the same things all the time?
You did not answer the question about who said all men would be saved or who's word was the authority, Jesus, or Paul, in scriptural truth.
You have staked your future on what you believe, as have I.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 30, 2008, 08:45:50 PM
You did not answer the question about who said all men would be saved or who's word was the authority, Jesus, or Paul, in scriptural truth.
The question has a false premise, it implies that only Jesus or Pauls words have authority on the matter.
God's will is the final authority, this is why Jesus was not allowed to have the "cup" pass.
God wills that all mankind be saved. Either the bible contradicts itself, or any verse that appears to contradict Gods absolute will is not understood properly.
I have a little question for you. You said Jesus was refused by the Father to have the cup pass. Since all the apostles were asleep, how did one of them hear what was going on in the garden?? There is only one reference to this event, and by Luke who was not present in the olive grove.
Luke 22:41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
46And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.
If this verse were true why would the following statements have been made by Jesus. Who was, by the way, Immanuel, God with us.
Luke 12:50
But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mark 8:33
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
John 10:17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
By the way, why do you think Jesus and the Father are seperate when they are one and the same?
John 10:29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
As for God's will about who He will save.
Job 34:13Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 01:23:44 AM
I have a little question for you. You said Jesus was refused by the Father to have the cup pass. Since all the apostles were asleep, how did one of them hear what was going on in the garden?? There is only one reference to this event, and by Luke who was not present in the olive grove.
Luke 22:41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
46And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.
If this verse were true why would the following statements have been made by Jesus. Who was, by the way, Immanuel, God with us.
More foolishness from the "troll"... GOD with US is
YHVH IN His Son, ...
CHRIST...
YHVH God ...
IS... the FATHER
and GOD of
CHRIST...
CHRIST noted this FACT many times, including the moment just before His DEATH on the Cross...
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 01:23:44 AMBy the way, why do you think Jesus and the Father are seperate when they are one and the same?
NO Scripture states that GOD and JESUS are ONE and the SAME... JESUS is the SON of GOD... GOD is HIS FATHER... A SON is an OFFSPRING of a FATHER...
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 01:23:44 AMJohn 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
You don't even read what you
"quote" troll... How can ONE GIVE something to oneself? If one already HAS this, it is ridiculous to state one is GIVING it to oneself... :rolleye:
Verse 30 simply notes that
CHRIST and
YHVH are ONE (united) in SPIRIT... with the
SAME agenda. That agenda being the fulfillment of the WILL of
YHVH...
For
CHRIST always stated the WILL of the Father, was the WILL He was concerned with and was about fulfilling,
NOT His own...
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 01:23:44 AMAs for God's will about who He will save.
Job 34:13Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
GOD makes an investment in each MAN of dust... the BREATH of LIFE... and THAT element notes the value of THAT DUST...
ALL flesh shall perish troll... for it is the NATURAL state of MEN... but the SPIRITUAL element which is the portion of BREATH given to each, is the SON in each of us, which ALWAYS
is EVERLASTING!
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on May 30, 2008, 11:38:13 PM
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 30, 2008, 08:45:50 PM
You did not answer the question about who said all men would be saved or who's word was the authority, Jesus, or Paul, in scriptural truth.
The question has a false premise, it implies that only Jesus or Pauls words have authority on the matter.
God's will is the final authority, this is why Jesus was not allowed to have the "cup" pass.
God wills that all mankind be saved. Either the bible contradicts itself, or any verse that appears to contradict Gods absolute will is not understood properly.
:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
:omg: Look who is DEMANDING ANSWERS to QUESTIONS! ...The one (peaceTROLL) who never answers the questions of others... :thumbdown:
:goodpost: Great post Paul! :happyclap:
...willieH :happy3:
No surprises, you'll can't read or reason or answer anything posted to you. :laughing7:
You say nothing new and have no idea what scriptures really say, because to you your dogmas have much more credence than the words of Jesus Christ.
YHVH is the God who spoke out of the gross darkness, Man which is in heaven dwells in the Light which no man has seen or can see.
John 14:8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
John 16: 24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
John 14:13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 20:27-29 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
What is the name of the Father?
Matthew 16:13
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 17:26
And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Isaiah 62:2
And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
I have shown who ever can hear the new name of God, from His own mouth. YHVH all you wish. The folling will still happen.
Zechariah 14:8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
And that name is all of the Adamic race. One as Jesus said, in the Father. MAN.
Jesus Christ, the human being, was the first of many bretheren, Man, the beginning of the creation of God. God recreating Himself.
Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Hi PeaceTroll, I quoted your question and have responded.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 01:23:44 AM
I have a little question for you. You said Jesus was refused by the Father to have the cup pass. Since all the apostles were asleep, how did one of them hear what was going on in the garden?? There is only one reference to this event, and by Luke who was not present in the olive grove.
First just let me say that it is important to see what the bible DOES NOT say as well as paying attention to the words it does have.
The bible does NOT say that ALL the disciples were sleeping, this is your conclusion, not the conclusion of scripture.
In Matthew we must notice what takes place from one verse to the next.
Mat 26:36 Then Jesus is coming with them into the freehold termed Gethsemane, and He is saying to His disciples, "Be seated, till I come away and should be praying there."
Mat 26:37 And taking along Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, He begins to be sorrowful and depressed."
Mat 26:38 Then He is saying to them, Sorrow-stricken is My soul to death. Remain here and watch with Me."
Mat 26:39 And coming forward a little, He falls on His face, praying and saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass by from Me. However, not as I will, but as Thou!"
We see that the ones sleeping were the ones who Jesus told to stay, but it does not say he told "all" of them nor does the bible say that "all" of them were sleeping.
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
--Romans 4
3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
---Genesis 15
[out of thine own] "bowels"
H4578
מעה
mê‛eh
may-aw'
From an unused root probably meaning to be soft; used only in plural the intestines, or (collectively) the abdomen, figuratively sympathy; by implication a vest; by extension the stomach, the uterus (or of men, the seat of generation), the heart (figuratively): - belly, bowels, X heart, womb.
38 I am telling you what I saw when I was with my Father. But you are following the advice of your father."
39 "Our father is Abraham!" they declared.
"No," Jesus replied, "for if you were really the children of Abraham, you would follow his example. 40 Instead, you are trying to kill me because I told you the truth, which I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.
--John 8
willieH: Hi readers... :hithere:
I post an answer to Peacetroll here, but it is mainly for YOU... because he is UNWILLING and obviously incapable of
answering even though he condemns others for not
answering:
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AM
No surprises, you'll can't read or reason or answer anything posted to you. :laughing7:
Easily said of you... You NEVER
answer any questions directed to you... or anything posted to you. :thumbdown:
This is easy for anyone to see, just REVIEW THIS THREAD, or any OTHER in which
Peacetroll participates!
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AMYou say nothing new and have no idea what scriptures really say, because to you your dogmas have much more credence than the words of Jesus Christ.
More hypocritical blab... :rolleye: You are just unable to see that ONE portion of the WORD of GOD does not hold a higher position than another. (i.e. the "GOSPELS" were written under the "SAME INSPIRER" as were the Letters and books of the
NT, and prior to those, the entire
OT :dontknow:)
ALL the "Scripture" we have to research, is relegated to Translations done from Hebrew and Greek of
COPIED texts... the Original Gospels, and letters are unavailable to those that would TRANSLATE them... and thereby UNAVAILABLE to us...
The TRUTH is found by any RESEARCHER, within the harmony contained in those AVAILABLE texts, when the MOST scrutiny which can be applied to them, is done, via the leading of GOD...
This process is not done via Peacetroll or willieH! It is done via the INDIVIDUAL :HeartThrob: ...which dedicates itself to GOD, seeking Him dilgently with that
ENTIRE :HeartThrob: : (Jer 29:13-14)
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AMJohn 14:8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Your observation remains in the NATURAL... for
CHRIST spoke both FROM and TO the SPIRIT... which is also WHY the Apostle PETER is not "satan" even though he was addressed as such...
CHRIST at times spoke from the position of
YHVH (Son of GOD/Word/ETERNAL) and at times from the position of Man (son of man/offspring/sacrifice/finite)... Of course you cannot through blind eyes see these things... rather in the tunnel vision of pride see yourself... as the SOLE viewer of truth, while all others "stumble around" in the dark, ...please! :OhNo:
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AMJohn 16: 24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
hmmm...
I will SHOW you... plainly OF the
FATHER... 2 entities mentioned here... "I" and the "Father"
I = SON of MAN which:
a. Is FINITE
b. Is able to be TEMPTED
c. Is subject to GOD
d. Is our brother human being
e. Is capable of DYING
f. Is the UNBLEMISHED and obedient (to
YHVH) sacrifice for Sin
the Father =
YHVH God which:
a. Is INFINITE
b. Cannot be TEMPTED and does not tempt.
c. Is OVER ALL
d. Is our CREATOR
e. Had to remove Himself from
CHRIST on the cross to enable Him to
die.
f. Throughout the life of
CHRIST was the "ALL" in the FIRSTBORN, that He is proposed to be in ALL at the conclusion of this process.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AM26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Again dusty... 2 SEPARATE entities are here noted... He didn't "pray to Himself"...
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AMJohn 14:13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Speaking above, as the WORD of GOD... not the son of man... get a clue...
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AMJohn 20:27-29 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
This is the RESURRECTED
CHRIST... He is ASCENDED... and
YHVH is NOW (in the ETERNAL resurrected state) COMPLETELY invested IN Him, both in BODY and SPIRIT...
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AM29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Prior to this portion of Scripture...
CHRIST deferred such commentary... for He resided in FLESH which could be TEMPTED to exalt itself... In this passage, He is in a body which IS RISEN... and in which "body"
YHVH permeates...
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AMWhat is the name of the Father?
Matthew 16:13
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Well dusty? You conveniently LEAVE OUT the answer... :rolleye:
What answer did they (Peter) give to this question...
(1) What they (Peter)
DID NOT say: thou art the CHRIST, ...the LIVING GOD...
(2) What they (Peter)
DID say: thou art art the
CHRIST, ...the
SON, ...of... the LIVING GOD (Matt 16:16)
QuoteJohn 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which IS in heaven.
This is a
TIME/
ETERNAL notation, as was (John 8:58) ...both perspectives noted in the same NOTATION...
(John 8:58) Before Abraham
WAS...
I AMCHRIST as the WORD, is an OMNIPRESENT entity... This notation is from TIME
and ETERNAL perspectives dusty... but is NOT impeded by TIME or its manifestations... ALL the Sons of men from the ETERNAL perspective ARE in Heaven, but FOLLOW the
FIRSTBORN.
In TIME no
man had ascended up to Heaven... but In ETERNITY,
CHRIST, the
FIRSTBORN, IS there ETERNALLY.
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AMJohn 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
This does not prove
CHRIST to be the Father... He is DECLARING the WAY of the FATHER in the flesh... which makes the INVISIBLE (Father), ...VISIBLE (via the son)... to those who have NEVER seen Him... :dontknow:
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AMJohn 17:26
And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Isaiah 62:2
And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
I have shown who ever can hear the new name of God, from His own mouth. YHVH all you wish. The folling will still happen.
Your
arrogance is pitiful dusty... :sigh: the "name"
JESUS CHRIST because of
YHVH's statements in the Old Testament SCRIPTURES means "
YHVH Saves"... GOD Never CHANGED His NAME...
He
REVEALS the GREATEST portion of it to those whom He has enables ONE by ONE, to see it: SAVIOR... It is NEW to those who have not seen it... it is REVEALED, not invented, created and, ...especially NOT "
RE-CREATED"... (as you propose below)
In the OT GOD (
YHVH) says this:
(Is 43:11) I,
[even] I
[am],
YHVH... and beside
ME,
[there is] ...
NO...
SAVIOR...
2nd witness: The very same statement is made in (Hosea 13:4)
The "man"
JESUS CHRIST did not SAVE us dusty...
YHVH God ...IN and THROUGH...
JESUS CHRIST, did this... you so easily and arrogantly DISRESPECT the HOLY name of GOD... I find deep pity for you in this... :sigh: :pitiful:
CHRIST is the MEDIATOR ( substitute) and ADVOCATE (lawyer)
between Man
and GOD... (1 Tim 2:5 / 1 John 2:1)
He stands between us and GOD
with His PERFECT life, and states to
YHVH, that HIS
OBEDIENT sacrifice was made, and STANDS FOR, ...each individual presented before
YHVH which is openly shown to have been,
DISOBEDIENT...
He is that which is presented to cover ALL which has been done OUTSIDE the
commanded WILL of
YHVH...
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AMZechariah 14:8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
And that name is all of the Adamic race. One as Jesus said, in the Father. MAN.
Jesus Christ, the human being, was the first of many bretheren, Man, the beginning of the creation of God. God recreating Himself.
What a crock! You state that GOD who claims to NEVER CHANGE, does exactly that!
RECREATING Himself??? :omg: What a load of BS! :thumbdown: You must be filled with new wine dusty! :drunken_smilie:
That which is PERFECT, is NOT in NEED of CHANGE, nor is in NEED of RE-CREATION!
What He in fact DOES is
REVEAL... what is ALREADY (eternally)
THERE dusty...
You note the following verse from the REVELATION of
JESUS CHRIST... (which means the "REVEALING" of
JESUS CHRIST) Something that is REVEALED is ALREADY there bud...
Quote from: Peacetroll on May 31, 2008, 03:26:43 AMRevelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
That which is "ETERNAL" needs no "creation" or "recreation", ...IT already
IS...
The "creation" we find ourselves within, is a "TIME" classroom, in which the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL is being taught... It has a BEGINNING, and an ENDING... Once the "lesson" is over, the "classroom" is become unecessary...
peAce...willieH :icon_king:
Good and evil is not being taught, it's being separated. :laughing7: Carry on.
Willy H, are you a crypto jewish infiltrator of christian movements? I see you are always squaking about YHVH, and not spelling the Name, of who you think God is. Only jews do this.
Paul, Jesus Christ and the Father are one. He is Emmanuel, God with us. His word is THE WORD, made flesh so that God could speak and live and be a Savior to all Adam. Paul is His agent.
willieH: Peacetroll... :cloud9:
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 01, 2008, 12:37:16 AM
Good and evil is not being taught, it's being separated. :laughing7: Carry on.
Gen 3:22 And
YHVH God said, behold the man is become as one of us, to KNOW good and evil
KNOWLEDGE is learned:
Is 26:9 with my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea with my spirit within me will I seek thee early... for WHEN THY JUDGMENTS are IN the EARTH, the INHABITANTS of the WORLD will ...LEARN righteousness...
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 01, 2008, 12:37:16 AMWilly H, are you a crypto jewish infiltrator of christian movements?
Funny you should mention it... I was a CRYPTOGRAPHER in the US Army, what did YOU do in the Service PT? BTW... I am a DISCIPLE of
JESUS CHRIST, what are you?
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 01, 2008, 12:37:16 AMI see you are always squaking about YHVH, and not spelling the Name, of who you think God is. Only jews do this.
Squaking? :laughing7:
The notation is English letters, but the best we can do in translation from Hebrew to our alphabet...
Ye
Ho
Va
H =
YHVH, there are no vowels in between the letters... they are inserted...
I note the name of MY GOD and FATHER (who was BTW, also
CHRIST's GOD and FATHER), with as much respect as possible... Unlike yourself... :thumbdown:
Is this the best answer you can come up with? Pretty weak there dusty... but its a start... :laughing7:
...willieH :cloud9:
This little jewish girl HAS ears to hear who God is, and is begining to learn. :laughing7: :laughing7: You return to YHVH's wallow. Are you a jewish infiltrator?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qNoKbxCj-k
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 01, 2008, 12:37:16 AM
Paul, Jesus Christ and the Father are one. He is Emmanuel, God with us.
His word is THE WORD, made flesh so that God could speak and live and be a Savior to all Adam. Paul is His agent.
At first glance I do not necessarily disagree with this. However, how does that change Gods will for saving all mankind?
How does this stop God from "doing his delight"?
Phl 2:13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.
I also agree that Jesus and the Father are one, as we all will be one with God the father at some point and time. But there is more to it when considering these verses.
Jn 14:28 You hear that I said to you, `I am going, and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
The following verses are worded in a unique manner. Jesus came "out" of God (Jesus was created) but when he returns he is going "to" the father rather than going the opposite of "out" which would be "in".
Jn 16:27 for the Father Himself is fond of you, seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Jn 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father."
1Corinthians 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
The point is that Gods Will and declaration that He will save all mankind takes precedence over the "appearance" that Jesus words say that not everyone will be reconciled.
9 "How are these things possible?" Nicodemus asked.
10 Jesus replied, "You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don't understand these things? 11 I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won't believe our testimony. 12 But if you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
--John 3
"be lifted up"
G5312
ὑψόω
hupsoō
hoop-so'-o
From G5311; to elevate (literally or figuratively): - exalt, lift up.
G5311
ὕψος
hupsos
hoop'-sos
From a derivative of G5228; elevation, that is, (abstractly) altitude, (specifically) the sky, or (figuratively) dignity: - be exalted, height, (on) high.
QuoteGood and evil is not being taught, it's being separated.
I agree with this, but we are also to learn to discern good and evil, which is not as easy as it sounds.
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.The Judgment is now (good and evil separated).
18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants. --John 3
QuoteJesus Christ and the Father are one. He is Emmanuel, God with us.
I agree with this, too.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son,
and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Jesus was not created, He is the Creator.
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Paul, this again is from Paul's letters, and is only stated once in the scriptures. Trust nothing that is not backed up by other scriptures saying the same thing. You must remember that the scriptures have been worked over by people with agendas of their own, mainly trinitiests of the early catholic church.
Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Paul himself uses this phrase.
2 Corinthians 13:1
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Matthew 28:18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
What is that name? Peter gave us the answer.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Why would God the Father have to give the authority of the Son back to Himself???
Willy H, you didn't answer the question.
I'll answer yours. I was retired from the airforce, with a 40% disability.
Quote from: Molly on June 01, 2008, 04:49:09 AM
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
The Judgment is now (good and evil separated).
In Heb 5:14 the word "both" in the phrase "to discern
both good and evil" is "besides." Not only can it be saying maturity is to understand the difference between good and evil; I think more importantly, we are not confronted with a duality here, but that beside the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is another tree: the tree of life! Good is the opposite end of the same stick as evil and will beat you to death just as fast regardless which way it is held. Maturity is authorized to eat of another tree, the tree of life.
The verse (13) before says: "For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe." Immature people are in the outer court which deals with judgment and cleansing. Their minds are much exercised about sin. They see sin and righteousness as a sort of closed system, yin and yang. They judge by "the law of sin unto death." Growing more mature by obedient excercise of God's, doing what He says, brings us into exercising authority with Him according to His purpose. The royal priesthood reigns according to "the law of life and liberty in Christ Jesus."
"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern
besides good and evil."
Besides good and evil?
The tree of life is Jesus Christ.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 1:3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
willieH: Hey there dusty! :hithere:
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 01, 2008, 03:04:28 AM
You return to YHVH's wallow.
I have enough SPIRITUAL sense to believe what the Scriptures SAY... not, as do you, what you
wish them to SAY! :laughing7:
GOD never CHANGES, to include His NAME unlike yourself Peactroll, er dusty, er dustprophet, er... ???? ...which begs the question WHO are you, really?...
The Scripture SAYS no CHANGE is found in Him, in both the OT and the NT:
Here: (Malachi 3:6)
and Here: (Heb 13:8)
and Here: (James 1:17)
:Yeahright: Of course, you would believe Him in need of "re-creation" :pointlaugh:
...pity... :pitiful:
You shall regret your blatant disrespects of the Name of GOD... :crywipe:
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 01, 2008, 03:04:28 AMAre you a jewish infiltrator?
No, to your sorrowful chagrin... I am a Disciple of the Lord
JESUS CHRIST... who's FATHER is also, My FATHER:
YHVH... and who, for the record, NEVER WAS and NEVER WILL BE
anything but JEWISH! :laugh: ...For as the SCRIPTURE SAYS: He is the SAME yesterday, today and forever --- eh? :laughhand:
The REAL question really isn't WHO I am, dusty, ... for I have been and always will be
willieH and that remains
UNCHANGED... :thumbsup:
The REAL question IS: ....WHAT and WHO are
YOU really? You have changed WHO you ARE over and again several times in the 3yrs I have been aquainted with you... :dontknow:
...willieH :icon_king:
I can imagine why he'd change his identity. He speaks of "return to YHVH's wallow" and "crypto Jewish infiltrators." Once who he really is and what he really believes gets too revealed he needs to hide. I wondered why he wouldn't answer me when I asked if he thought the children of the devil were an identifiable group like Jews or Negroes. Regardless, such racism as he pushes is so NOT the spirit of Jesus or anything taught in any of the Bible! It certainly sounds like were beginning to see his true colors. Too bad that up til now he can't seem to dump the garbage somebody's pumped into his head and just read the Bible for himself. Some good deprograming information dealing with his specific case has been put into these threads where we've tried to interact with him. There are some very real things pertaining to God Himself that are to be entered into. It's important that we not be sidetracked by these unprofitable and ungodly doctrines that have the potential of destroying the faith of some.
QuoteThe royal priesthood reigns according to "the law of life and liberty in Christ Jesus."
yes. That's beautiful. You showed me that the other day. The tree of life--
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.(Rom 8:2)
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.--2Cor 3
1And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the LORD, mine horn is exalted in the LORD: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation.
2There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. --1 Sam 2
[I rejoice in thy]
"salvation"H3444
ישׁוּעה
yeshû‛âhyesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 01, 2008, 11:56:54 PM
Jesus was not created, He is the Creator.
Jesus talked about not being concerned that he was seen as equal to the Father, but he never declared his equality as in being the same entity. If as some say there is no difference between Jesus and the Father then is Jesus his own father?
Quote
Why would God the Father have to give the authority of the Son back to Himself???
The "why" probably is not necessarily explained in scripure. We can ask WHY God did or didn't do this or that, but that does not change what scripture says.
Edit: sorry, completely left out the word above in red, DOH
Needing to know why will cause a skew of what scripture really says. God created Evil, it says so right in scripture, but someone will go WHY and it doesn't make sense to them so they will spend their time finding a way to not believe it says what it says in the context of the whole bible. In ecclesiastes it says God gives us an experience to humble us.
We don't like hearing that a Loving God would do that.
God is the original cause of everything. If Jesus was not created then "ALL" did not come out of God. Religion and the trinity doctrine has done a good job at destroying this truth in scripture.
How many times do I have to say the same thing for you to hear Willy?
Tares are known by their fruits. A corrupt tree produces corrupt fruit.
God was in the beginning Elohim, containing both light and darkness. He divided the Light from the Darkness. All things are possible with God. He, God God the Father, chose to dwell in that Light, the Light that was in the beginning with God, and was God and in whom is no Darkness at all.
God the Light is not hasty in anything He does, makes no mistakes, and never repents from what He has declared. The true scriptures cannot be broken because He has declared them.
The Darkness was in the beginning with God and was God, but has been rejected by The Father. The God who spoke out of the gross Darkness is judged by God our Father already and that judgment is being made manifest in this creation.
He repented many times from things He declared, his wrath was constantly being kindled, and he gave death sentences for tiny offences. He blamed the children for the offences of the fathers to many generations, and condemned the whole human race to death. That is who the first covenant was with. Death. As Jesus said, The Adversary was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.
Wisdom of Solomon (Apocrypha), chapter 1
13: For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.
14: For he created all things, that they might have their being: and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of death (satan or the evil part of the original Elohim) upon the earth:
15: (For righteousness is immortal:)
16: But ungodly men with their works and words called it (death or the dark side of the original Elohim) to them: for when they thought to have it their friend, they consumed to nought, and made a covenant with it, because they are worthy to take part with it.
PT,
If you had a testimony of some kind of direct revelatory experience that brought about these anti-Scriptural doctrines of yours I might think you had something (though what that would be I can't say.) Compounding words, Deutero-canonical and pseudopedigraphic (sp?) material with a sprinkle of Bible is not something to base faith in. It has some interest, but no authority.
You're a racist Zoroasterian? (sp?) Never mind, God loves you dearly. He's full of gentleness and tender pity! Everybody has to start somewhere. Come on in! The water's fine!
"Keep walking along straight paths so that your injured leg won't get worse. Instead, let it heal." Hebrew 12:13 GW Some version somewhere has something to the effect of, "Find well traveled paved roads so the injured won't get entirely off course..." This is why sticking to the standard 66 books of the Sacred Scripture is to be commended to you.
Reformer, I know God loves me, and has answered my request for knowledge and true faith.
I know you disregard most of the books of the prophets as base unless they were cannonized by the ancient catholic church, and disregard a man like Enoch who was not, because God took him. Or the wisdom of Solomon, because the things he said did not please the world.
I have told you of things that are heavenly, and you will not hear. The real reason this world exists, and the logical plan to correct what was wrong from the beginning.
Even the purpose of the 1000 years of Christ's reign was too big a gnat for you to swallow, yet you can swallow the camel of light and darkness being reentegrated at the end of the age against everything Jesus Christ said. What can be said. I cast many pearls, and you ignor them and call them unscriptural, when all I use is scripture. And never just one, but many.
PT,
That you really seem to believe there are among us a race of doomed humanoids that are children of the devil by virtue of flesh birth, their genetic makeup predetermining them to be functional antichrists is so nuts it's hard to even recognize you can think that way! And it's so NOT in the Bible of Christians and Jews! Yet you seriously propose we should accept extrabiblical writings in order to believe this?! It staggers the imagination. Too dangerous to enslave, now with genetic testing we should know who to transport en mass to the cremetory ovens. Real sweet!!
I'm curious of what your idea an practice of "spirituality," or what has often been referred to as one's "devotional life" consists, both personal and corporate. Maybe you're more normal than you seem. Maybe worse (I hate to think.).
2And the earth was without form, and void; and
darkness
H2822
חשׁך
chôshek
kho-shek'
From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.
H2821
חשׁך
châshak
khaw-shak'
A primitive root; to be dark (as withholding light); transitively to darken: - be black, be (make) dark, darken, cause darkness, be dim, hide.
was upon
the face
H6440
פּנים
pânîym
paw-neem'
Plural (but always used as a singular) of an unused noun (פּנה pâneh, paw-neh'; from 6437); the face (as the part that turns); used in a great variety of applications (literally and figuratively);
of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said,
Let there be
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.
["hayah" from the name of God, "I AM," ( hayah asher hayah, "I AM THAT I AM.)"]
light:
[I AM light]
[ . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James1:17)]
and there was light.
[15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim 6) ]
4And God saw the light, that it was good:
and God divided the light from the darkness.
[Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?(2Cor 6)]
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were
the first
H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly,
H258
אחד
'âchad
aw-khad'
Perhaps a primitive root; to unify, that is, (figuratively) collect (one's thoughts): - go one way or other.
day.
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
--Revelation 21
Quote from: PeaceTroll
13: For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.
If God didn't create death how can he destroy it? Or do you think that will never be accomplished?
Here is a scripture that by itself should prove that all will eventually come to know the truth and be saved.
(John 6:45) it is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God. EVERY MAN THEREFORE THAT HATH HEARD, AND HATH LEARNED OF THE FATHER COMETH UNTO ME.
It doesn't say only those that PeaceTroll believes will be saved. It says ALL will be taught of God and ALL that are taught of God will come to Christ. This sounds like the whole universe to me.
We only know in part. How can man understand God who he has never seen when we can't even understand man who we see and talk to all the time?
How can you say that God created SOME just for himself and others just to burn? Satan cannot reproduce, show us the scripture. God created man in His own image. Would Satan's seed be in the image of God's seed? What you are doing is giving power to Satan that belongs only to God.
(Gen. 4:12) And Adam KNEW his wife; and she CONCEIVED, and BARE CAIN, and said, I HAVE GOTTEN A MAN FROM THE LORD.
If you can show me in this verse where Cain came from Satan, I might become a believer of what you are saying. It says, Adam had sex with Eve and she got pregnant and bare Cain. Why did Eve say, "I have gotten a man from the Lord" if Cain came from Satan?
CHB
Cain was of the wicked one. Others are nephelim, children of the watchers.
1 John 3:12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
Who is the world?
Luke 16:8
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
Luke 11:28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
29And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
Who can hear the Word, Jesus's words, and keep them? Not the children of the god of this world.
John 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 02, 2008, 06:09:49 PM
Wisdom of Solomon (Apocrypha), chapter 1
Question peacetroll.
I can go to www.scripture4all.org and find the bible transliterated (I believe that is the term) so that I can see the words from greek and hebrew directly rendered.
I have not seen anyone complain that this source for the bible is inaccurate or biased.
Is there a source such as this online for the Apocrypha?
Here you go Paul.
Wisdom of Solomon (King James Apocrypha)
http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvSolo.html (http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvSolo.html)
Here is another good read (which is different then the Genesis version we are use to in the West), it is a 2000 year old targum from the Jews who studied scripture in that time around Jerusalem;
The Aramaic Targum of Jonathan Ben Uzziel on the Pentateuch
http://www.ultimasurf.net/bible/aramaic/targum/jonathan/genesis/genesis_1.htm
Genesis - Chapter 3
BERASHITH
1. And the serpent was wiser unto evil than all the beasts of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, Is it truth that the Lord God hath said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2. And the woman said to the serpent, From the rest of the fruits of the trees of the garden we have power to eat;
3. but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden the Lord hath said, You shall not eat of it, nor approach it, lest you die.
4. In that hour the serpent spake accusation against his Creator, and said to the woman, Dying you will not die; for every artificer hateth the son of his art:
5. for it is manifest before the Lord, that in the day that you eat of it, you will be as the great angels, who are wise to know between good and evil.
6. And the woman beheld Sammael, the angel of death, and was afraid; yet she knew that the tree was good to eat, and that it was medicine for the enlightenment of the eyes, and desirable tree by means of which to understand. And she took of its fruit, and did eat; and she gave to her husband with her, and he did eat.
7. And the eyes of both were enlightened, and they knew that they were naked, divested of the purple robe in which they had been created. And they saw the sight of their shame, and sewed to themselves the leaves of figs, and made to them cinctures. [JERSULAEM TARGUM. And they made to them vestments.]
8. And they heard the voice of the word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the repose of the day; and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
9. And the Lord God called to Adam, and said to him, Is not all the world which I have made manifest before Me; the darkness as the light? and how hast thou thought in thine heart to hide from before Me? The place where thou art concealed, do I not see? Where are the commandments that I commanded thee?
[JERUSALEM TARGUM. Walking in the garden in the strength of the day......And the Word of the Lord God called to Adam, and said to him, Behold, the world which I have created is manifest before Me; and how thinkest thou that the place in the midst whereof thou art, is not revealed before Me? Where is the commandment which I taught thee?]
10. And he said, The voice of Thy Word heard I in the garden, and I was afraid, because I am naked; and the commandment which Thou didst teach me, I have transgressed; therefore I hid myself from shame.
11. And He said, Who showed thee that thou art naked? Unless thou hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded that thou shouldst not eat.
12. And Adam said, The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the fruit of the tree, and I did eat.
13. And the Lord God said to the woman, What hast thou done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me with his subtilty, and deceived me with his wickedness, and I ate.
14. And the Lord God brought the three unto judgment; and He said to the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou of all the cattle, and of all the beasts of the field: upon thy belly thou shalt go, and thy feet shall be cut off, and thy skin thou shalt cast away once in seven years; and the poison of death shall be in thy mouth, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between the seed of thy son, and the seed of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the woman keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel. Nevertheless for them there shall be a medicine, but for thee there will be no medicine; and they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.
[JERUSALEM TARGUM. And it shall be when the sons of the woman consider the law, and perform (its) instructions, they will be prepared to smite thee on thy head to kill thee; and when the sons of the woman forsake the commandment of the law, and perform not (its) instructions, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel, and hurt them. Nevertheless there shall be a medicine for the sons of the woman, but for thee, serpent, there shall be no medicine: but it is to be that for these there shall be a remedy for the heel in the days of the king Meshiha.]
When you can comprehend that God was speaking to The Angel of Death in the above targum about his (Sammual's) children (that he produced via Eve), then you can easily comprehend what Jesus meant with clarity....Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Cain was a child of 'The Angel of Death' or Sammael....Cain and his generations are the very seed that has continually been at enmity with Adam's seed...Abel (Seth was the replacement for Abel given to Adam);
1 John 3:
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (If you abideth in death you sure don't abide in Christ..who is LIFE!)
15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Reformer, there is no bible of the christians and the jews. The christian bible has the old and new testament, 66 books, the jews have the torah, the 5 books of Moses.
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 03, 2008, 02:48:24 AM
Reformer, I know God loves me, and has answered my request for knowledge and true faith.
I know you disregard most of the books of the prophets as base unless they were cannonized by the ancient catholic church, and disregard a man like Enoch who was not, because God took him. Or the wisdom of Solomon, because the things he said did not please the world.
Obviously you misunderstood what I've expressed simply before. I do not believe any member of the body of Christ should ever accept as canonical what has been authorized by any of these religious governments of man that are not the kingdom of God. Various sects have put forth various teachings and practices antagonistic to God and His people. Their very existence is a testimony against them because there is already a kingdom of God where God Himself is both the realm and it's ruler. They have another authority in another name yet men are confused because they appropriate to themselves words of God. "Confusion" translates the term "Babylon." Like the worldly institutions of Rome or Constantinople, not in the heavens but on the earth; whose heads are Pope and Patriarch, not resurrected and ascended Jesus in direct intimacy with us, His flesh and bone (Eph 5) in the earth: these sects "authorize" for those men asleep in the bosom of the great Whore certain texts. They differ between themselves on this matter. The tributary Coptic sect approves texts all by itself. These texts are what you peacetroll, and not I, propose as Scripture. I assert that only what has been universally accepted among all but the fringes of the Church be considered authoritative. This is not anything of any Institutional heirarchy anywhere, only the people of God before any religious bureaucrazies and in spite of their efforts to destroy the vernacular copies. This cannot include the Apocrapha, 3 and 4 Esdras, Enoch, etc. that are still rejected by more than 3/4ths of those who call themselves Christian today. What our canon amounts to is the standard 66 books of the Holy Bible.
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 03, 2008, 11:17:43 PM
Here you go Paul.
Wisdom of Solomon (King James Apocrypha)
http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvSolo.html (http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvSolo.html)
I know I can find translated text, but I do my studying of the holy bible by first looking at the direct translated word from the hebrew and greek text. Virtually all bound translations change that to make it easier for people to read. The CLV keeps most of it close but even that translation has a few verses that skew things a bit. So I was looking for a resource along those lines.
I do have a comment though
Quote
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
I am not sure as far as universalism goes that the average person does not know that God makes a distinction between good and evil and that evil will not be among us when all is reconciled.
The issue here is whether God created all things or indirectly allowed things by design and has ultimate control over the nature of all those things.
For instance the first humans were created by God however that happened, he is the cause of the first humans. From that point forward, it could be argued that God did not create you or me or a child in the womb, etc etc. But, God is the original cause that you or I were born but he designed the mechanism or process by which that happens.
Satan is not a human being, whatever it can be argued that he is, whether it is a fallen angel, whether he was created that way, whether he chose to do anything, God is the original designer of what Satan does.
In Job, Satan could not lift one finger against job until God granted permission and God DID grant permission. We are all born into Sin, which means every living human being is at first "of the devil" with only one exception, Jesus Christ.
Now, God is a God of process, so why wasn't Jesus born into Sin as well, is it really because God just didn't do it that way? No, the process by which Jesus was conceived was not of the earth.
No other human being is conceived that way, the Devil is the ruler of the earth, any human born through natural means is "of the devil" . The spiritual nature of our existance is bound by the process God set in place.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
So, whether there is an argument about what Tares actually are or not, what a TARE is NOT is a human being that is physically or spiritually destined to not be converted and purified as Silver and Gold.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 04, 2008, 01:14:01 AM
So, whether there is an argument about what Tares actually are or not, what a TARE is NOT is a human being this is physically or spiritually destined to not be converted and purified as Silver and Gold.
Paul, you could explain this a bit better for my sake. I'm not sure I understand you. You seem to be pointing to what was originally on my mind in the beginning of this thread.
This parable about the tares was one of only a couple of remaining passages of Scripture I had difficulty answering in defense of the salvation of all. (While we go on to be busy with many other things,) I remain not fully satisfied, still tending to think of it as the world in our hearts. There are things born of God's word and the devil's word in our hearts and minds. The messengers will gather these together in their respective groups in the consummation. This will determine the nature we are revealed to have.
The Apocrapha is available in various translations at www.ccel.org (http://www.ccel.org) (Christian Classics Ethereal Library)
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 04, 2008, 01:14:01 AM
So, whether there is an argument about what Tares actually are or not, what a TARE is NOT is a human being this is physically or spiritually destined to not be converted and purified as Silver and Gold.
Quote from: reFORMer on June 04, 2008, 01:33:59 AM
Paul, you could explain this a bit better for my sake. I'm not sure I understand you. You seem to be pointing to what was originally on my mind in the beginning of this thread.
I'll do my best.
A tare can certainly be an unconverted person. The question is if this story means that tares are born into the earth with no hope of being with God. Any suggestion that any human being has no hope has already contradicted scripture.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Part of the problem with the idea of "satans spawn", so to speak, is that scripture stating All comes out of God is ignored and Satan is given the power of creation. In order for a human being to not be of God, Satan has to have the power to create, there is no way around this. So we already have a contradiction and an unscriptural premise and we've barely even gotten to the parable.
Next we have to apply the "words" to scripture, not just the potential meaning, nor the fact that it is a parable. Take the words, burn up and apply it to scripture.
1Corinthians 3:15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he' shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire.
What is the work of a Tare?
Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:
Simon Peter will be with God even though Jesus said this to his face.
Matthew 16:23 Now, being turned, He said to Peter, "Go away behind Me, satan! A snare are you to Me, for you are not disposed to that which is of God, but that which is of men."
The parable is also about the process of salvation (harvest). Those who are written in the lambs book will avoid the lake of fire (narrow gate), the tares, will have their day in the lake of fire(wide gate), if not converted before then as Peter was, to be purified as silver and gold.
The elect (wheat) will be put in the barn first. The tares must be bound and their works tried by fire, but they too will be in the barn eventually.
The reason so many arguments seem compelling is that some people believe (falsely) that Jesus words are everything we need to know. This simply is not true. How do I know this?
Mt 5:17 "You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.
I hope that was helpful.
Thanx. I broke up the sentence of yours I quoted, punctuating it differently in my mind.
Jesus told you what a tare is, and who planted them, and what their end is. No use in my repeating His words, since you do not hear them from Him. :dontknow:
PT.
To state one doesnt HEAR means one doesnt understand ...YET , many here percieve HIS words quite the contrary to you..just maybe Bro its you who doesnt percieve :icon_flower:
Alas the poor disciples in their carnal reasoning were no different...but one can appreciate from your perspective we are those who lack understanding and are indeed the Blind. :HeartThrob:
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 04, 2008, 05:19:57 PM
Jesus told you what a tare is, and who planted them, and what their end is. No use in my repeating His words, since you do not hear them from Him. :dontknow:
You repeat his words, but thats not all of scripture. Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes, not literal storybook lessons.
I do not see scripture conclude that any human being ever born will not be with God one day.
Jesus is the Savior of all man kind. God will reconcile ALL unto himself. God subjects ALL in hope.
I do not have to try to make a case that man has manipulated scripture to make my point appear to be valid.
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 02, 2008, 02:02:25 AM
The tree of life is Jesus Christ.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 1:3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Hey PT ,when Christ mention HE is the LIGHT of men ..what does this mean to you?
Ecc 11:7 Truly the light [is] sweet, and a pleasant [thing it is] for the
eyes to behold the sun ( SON)
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Now as He FORMS light and Creates DARKNESS, then all is of HIM..such a choosey God eh?..John Calvin enjoyed the thought of the Chosen Few.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
For mine much of all this is explained in Genesis...speaking of two covenants , one for the Carnal, One for the Spirit..all HIM never the less
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
The LIGHT OF THE NIGHT WAS to lead US TO THE TRUE LIGHT OF the DAY( christ) , BUT THATS NOW FULLFILLED ITS PURPOSE, COULD IT THEREFORE BE THOUGHT TO be evil TO NOW WANT TO stay there..who wants to live in Darkness ( lack of TRUE UNDERSTANDING BRO)the Light of the MOON has had its Night for those in the DAY.
now consider these words in the LIGHT of whats been given
Mat
6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!
Luk 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when [thine eye] is evil, thy body also [is] full of darkness
But for my understanding in what you continue to write is BUT a FEW be saved and that DARKNESS rules..Darkness therefore Is Brighter than True Light...Im a simple man PT, and for sure that doesnt add up to me...
especially when we are told that HE is a Respector of No person.. then surely HE must be a Liar,..or MAYBE NOT
Blessings
Taffy
This is a trial, played out in the flesh. No man comands his own footsteps here. There is nothing new under the sun, all is a repeat of what has already been done. This is the way God chose to show His judgements are perfect.
At the end of a trial comes the judgement. As Jesus said the devil is judged already, and that He saw Satan fall as lightning, long ago. All is showing the dividing of Light from the Darkness. That the Light is good, and the Darkness is death..
There are always two sides in a war, and this is a warfare, most in war are bystanders leaning to one side or the other, but each side has it's soldiers. So it was before and is now.
We have to make our fight for what we believe true and stand in our place at the judgement seat of Christ. I believe that's all you or I can do.
1 I love you, O LORD, my strength.
2 The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge.
He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
3 I call to the LORD, who is worthy of praise,
and I am saved from my enemies.
4 The cords of death entangled me;
the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me.
5 The cords of the grave coiled around me;
the snares of death confronted me.
6 In my distress I called to the LORD;
I cried to my God for help.
From his temple he heard my voice;
my cry came before him, into his ears.
7 The earth trembled and quaked,
and the foundations of the mountains shook;
they trembled because he was angry.
8 Smoke rose from his nostrils;
consuming fire came from his mouth,
burning coals blazed out of it.
9 He parted the heavens and came down;
dark clouds were under his feet.
10 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
he soared on the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him—
the dark rain clouds of the sky.
12 Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced,
with hailstones and bolts of lightning.
13 The LORD thundered from heaven;
the voice of the Most High resounded.
14 He shot his arrows and scattered the enemies ,
great bolts of lightning and routed them.
15 The valleys of the sea were exposed
and the foundations of the earth laid bare
at your rebuke, O LORD,
at the blast of breath from your nostrils.
16 He reached down from on high and took hold of me;
he drew me out of deep waters.
17 He rescued me from my powerful enemy,
from my foes, who were too strong for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my disaster,
but the LORD was my support.
19 He brought me out into a spacious place;
he rescued me because he delighted in me.
20 The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness;
according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the LORD;
I have not done evil by turning from my God.
22 All his laws are before me;
I have not turned away from his decrees.
23 I have been blameless before him
and have kept myself from sin.
24 The LORD has rewarded me according to my righteousness,
according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight.
25 To the faithful you show yourself faithful,
to the blameless you show yourself blameless,
26 to the pure you show yourself pure,
but to the crooked you show yourself shrewd.
27 You save the humble
but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.
28 You, O LORD, keep my lamp burning;
my God turns my darkness into light.
--Psalm 18
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. --Matthew 25
Quote from: Taffy on June 04, 2008, 08:02:21 PM
Mat
6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!
Luk 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when [thine eye] is evil, thy body also [is] full of darkness
[if thine eye be]
"single"G573
ἁπλοῦς
haploushap-looce'
Probably
from G1 (as a particle of union) and the base of G4120; properly folded together, that is, single (figuratively clear): - single.
G1
Α
A
al'-fahOf Hebrew origin;
the first letter of the alphabet: figuratively only (from its use as a numeral)
the first. Often used (usually "an", before a vowel) also in composition (as a contraction from G427) in the sense of privation; so in many words beginning with this letter; occasionally
in the sense of union (as a contraction of G260): - Alpha.
G4120
πλέκω
plekōplek'-o
A primary word;
to twine or braid: - plait.
Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 04, 2008, 09:06:10 PM
He saw Satan fall as lightning, long ago.
I quoted this part of your message because I wanted to ask if you think Satan was perfect then fell?
Jesus explained it clearly...Satan was never perfect...
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
As I have said many times, Satan is what he is, and does not change, the Darkness.
His fall was from Power, as the right arm of God.
Revelation 5
1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
He was replaced by the Light as right arm. Long ago, before the foundation of the world.
David knew this.
Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalm 80:17
Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.
Psalm 48:10
According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.
Luke and Mark wrote of this.
Luke 22:69
Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
You will probably think of the lucifer scripture as a rebuttle, but that is a mistranslation that should read shinning one, and is about Leviathan, Baelzebub, the angel in rebellion against Satan. Jesus spoke of this divided house.
Matthew 12:23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 04, 2008, 09:06:10 PM
This is a trial, played out in the flesh. No man comands his own footsteps here. There is nothing new under the sun, all is a repeat of what has already been done. This is the way God chose to show His judgements are perfect.
I am a new man. There's never been another one like me. God will do things through me that have never been done before.
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 04, 2008, 09:06:10 PM
There are always two sides in a war, and this is a warfare, most in war are bystanders leaning to one side or the other, but each side has it's soldiers. So it was before and is now.
We have to make our fight for what we believe true and stand in our place at the judgement seat of Christ. I believe that's all you or I can do.
Since you believe (contrary to Jesus saying "the flesh profits nothing,") that the two sides are determined biologically, that those of the light are so racially as those of the darkness are so by carnal ancestry--that is, the origins and present identity of the seperate sides of this war is flesh (according to you)--then it is logical to assume those not bystanders, as you call them, where instead "each side has it's soldiers," these warriors war after the flesh. When you say, "We have to make our fight for what we believe true and stand in our place at the judgement seat of Christ" are we right in supposing you're consistently carnal, the weapons of this war are knives, swords, guns, bombs, as such like, also contrary to God which He says so well through Paul, "...for walking in the flesh, not according to the flesh do we war, for the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly..." (2 Co 10:3-4)?
More foolishness, the flesh profits nothing, because you cannot keep your own soul alive, you cannot be perfect, and you are doomed without Christ. It is your connection to the world, and your death. Being born from the line of Adam, the created, not begotten son of God is the crop that Jesus, God, planted and the angels will gather to His barn.
The tares are non-Adamic, planted by Jesus's enemy, and will be eliminated.
There is NOTHING new in this world. Don't you believe the scriptures?
Ecclesiastes 1:9The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
Ecclesiastes 3:14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
15That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
This is why the Jesus said this.
John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
They cannot be broken because they are the template of the past in this trial in the flesh.
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 07:31:32 PM
non-Adamic
What scripture contains that?
Is it this one?
1C 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
How could have adam been in Christ? He sinned and he collected the Wages of Sin, Death.
But will Adam not be with God at some point?
1 Timothy 2:4
Christ said Peter was of his father the Devil, and later was converted.
Jesus talked about what tares were, sure, and Jesus said this to Peter.
Matthew 16:23 Now, being turned, He said to Peter, "Go away behind Me, satan! A snare are you to Me, for you are not disposed to that which is of God, but that which is of men."
Funny how there is the same work of a tare within that verse.
But Peter Still had Hope, even though he did the Work of a Tare when he betrayed Christ.
Peter didn't know he had hope at the time, but thats how the FREE GIFT of salvation works.
What was said to Peter was addressed in another thread on this board. No use rehashing the same thing again.
Adam brought in death by unbelief, and from there on looked for the Messiah, as proved by what his son Abel was doing that was right.
Genesis 4:4
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Adam was the first of the crop Jesus planted.
Matthew 13:36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
That line of reasoning is again contradicted by Cain, born of the same Adam.
There is a contradiction everywhere you turn, but you can keep trying if you like.
Paul, Cain was not born of Adam. When Cain was born, Eve said she had gotten a man from the Lord. She did not say this about Abel. Cain and Able were nonidenticle twins with different fathers and different natures, or spirits.
Cain's being concieved was why God greatly increased Eve's conception.
Genesis 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Genesis 4
1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
As John said.
1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
This is very tough for people who disregard the other books not cannonized by the catholic church. No problem for those who are grounded in the many, including the Targums of Palistine.
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 09:48:34 PM
Paul, Cain was not born of Adam. When Cain was born, Eve said she had gotten a man from the Lord. She did not say this about Abel. Cain and Able were nonidenticle twins with different fathers and different natures, or spirits.
Gn 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
You have to realize what the verse says in according with other scripture, not what point you wish to believe. There is no reason for the word "again" to appear about ABEL. WHAT, did she have abel TWICE? No, the circumstances of flesh and being from the Lord, were the same.
Again!!!
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 04, 2008, 09:06:10 PM
There are always two sides in a war, and this is a warfare, most in war are bystanders leaning to one side or the other, but each side has it's soldiers. So it was before and is now.
We have to make our fight for what we believe true and stand in our place at the judgement seat of Christ. I believe that's all you or I can do.
When you say, "We have to make our fight for what we believe true and stand in our place at the judgement seat of Christ" are we right in supposing you're consistently carnal in your explanation, so that the weapons of this war are knives, swords, guns, bombs, and such like, even though this is also contrary to God which He says so well through Paul, "...for walking in the flesh, not according to the flesh do we war, for the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly..." (2 Co 10:3-4)?
I thought Serpent-Seed Doctrine was banned from Tentmaker.
Arn't you able to grasp the least of things that are everywhere in the bible. Do you think this is the kingdom of God here now? That it began in 70 AD?
Do you think that saying what you believe with scripture is carnal? Carnal is salvation by works.
You do a good job of judging others as spiritually inferior without any scriptural proof whatsoever.
Where did you get the theory that God would throw one into the lake of fire over and over till they get whatever it is He wants right?
willieH: hey there 'troll! :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 07:31:32 PM
More foolishness, the flesh profits nothing, because you cannot keep your own soul alive, you cannot be perfect, and you are doomed without Christ. It is your connection to the world, and your death. Being born from the line of Adam, the created, not begotten son of God is the crop that Jesus, God, planted and the angels will gather to His barn.
The tares are non-Adamic, planted by Jesus's enemy, and will be eliminated.
There is NOTHING new in this world. Don't you believe the scriptures?
Ecclesiastes 1:9The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
The FOOLISHNESS is all
yours matey! You quote verses without noting what the oration is all about:
BEFORE your quoted verses:
Ecc 1:1-2 The words of the preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem... VANITY of VANITIES, saith the preacher, VANITY of VANITIES, ...
ALL is VANITY...
AFTER your quoted verses:
Ecc 1:14 I have seen ALL the WORKS that are done under the sun; and behold ...
ALL is VANITY and VEXATION of SPIRIT.
Which is the FLESH... the entire NATURAL existence of man PROFITTING NOTHING... only gaining one thing which is SPIRITUAL to the ETERNAL GLORY of the Father, which is the knowledge of Good and Evil...
And is that which
YHVH in His PERFECTION Eternally has... and is the final element of Him in His Children, as ALL in ALL... (Gen 3:22)
Just one more example of YOU ignoring the essence of the story you profess to know... :sigh: As you accuse others of not seeing and being foolish, you continue in your blindness and foolishness... :thumbdown:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 07:31:32 PM
More foolishness, the flesh profits nothing, because you cannot keep your own soul alive, you cannot be perfect, and you are doomed without Christ. It is your connection to the world, and your death. Being born from the line of Adam, the created, not begotten son of God is the crop that Jesus, God, planted and the angels will gather to His barn.
The tares are non-Adamic, planted by Jesus's enemy, and will be eliminated.
There is NOTHING new in this world. Don't you believe the scriptures?
Ecclesiastes 1:9The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
Ecclesiastes 3:14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
15That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
This is why the Jesus said this.
John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
They cannot be broken because they are the template of the past in this trial in the flesh.
I can tell you for sure that Jesus was a new thing under the sun about 1000 years after Ecclesiastes was written!
Some of the rest of what you write sounds like veiled references to some form of the doctrine, supposedly rather ancient (certainly centuries before the Mormons) that we humans are incarnated from a previous (maybe angelic) creation. Then the ones that were bad enough were judged some way, cast out or whatever. The good enough ones were received around the throne of God. The inbetween ones, not developed sufficiently, were where we came from, incarnated here so we could takes sides and be judged.
Regardless of whether this doctrine is entertained or not, the question arises from certain Scriptures if we were pre-existing in any way. If we were, "chosen in Him before the casting down of the world," we seem justified in thinking of it like going shopping for apples. We picked them over, selecting a few, but left most behind. But does this mean we were active personalities with individual lives? It is mostly answered by the word about God demonstrating what His power to make choices is about through the lives of Esau and Jacob. The relevant thing stated there is this phrase: "...being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." (Rom 9:11) This seems to preclude any sort of activity normally attributed to life. There is no "self" life involved. The fact that we were "chosen in Him before the disruption of the world" and are called "the predesignated in Christ" indicates that there were specific aspects of Christ, Who is the manifestation of God, that were described or shown by some sort of demarkation as preordinations. These unique and particular aspects of Christ were indicated to then existing celestial beings as something God was going to individually bring into manifestation. What we call being born from above, or maybe, receiving the Holy Spirit, is when such a predestined aspect of His identity began to come into the predicted manifestation. Certain intelligences now can compare these exhibited features of God's being and there are perhaps future ramifications to this display. It seems there is no room for a self as carnal man thinks of his identity, no pre-existence. However, there is something "in Christ" which if we enter into His life sufficiently, I believe we may come to an experience and demonstration of the Divine nature as is described of Melchisadek, "..having neither beginning of days, nor end of years," a true "endless" life. Hallelujah!!!
It is called the Serpent Seed Doctrine, and it is banned from discussion since it is a bunch of non-sense held by only one member of this board, but keeps making huge problems since he won't ever answer any challenges or questions presented to him.
For those of us who truly love and follow Jesus, we are given very special instructions that are rarely seen anywhere in the world.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
---Matthew 5
This does not say bomb your enemies, make war with your enemies, imprison your enemies, kill your enemies, torture your enemies, sue your enemies, insult your enemies, steal from your enemies, and so on.
What is it the Christian world does not understand about this instruction? Because finding this attitude in the world is rarer than hens' teeth.
So what can we say of those who do not follow this instruction to love their enemies?
25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.--Luke 13
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2008, 05:15:27 PM
For those of us who truly love and follow Jesus, we are given very special instructions that are rarely seen anywhere in the world.
I think many verses in the bible show us what it would take to enter through the narrow gate and avoid the wide one where our works are burnt up.
Ja 2:10 For anyone who should be keeping the whole law, yet should be tripping in one thing, has become liable for all.
Just think of a feeling we can get when we come to understand that our human efforts may have been in vain. We feel cheated and it can hurt greatly.
Imagine thinking we love Jesus only to see our efforts burnt up because in our heart our efforts were indeed self serving. It would be that blindness lifted to expose the truth.
1C 3:15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire.
This can be really painful, but God is love, in the end we will be transformed to the understanding of truth and learn righteousness.
9 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;
--Genesis 25
Ishmael, my brother
How long shall we fight each other?
My brother from times bygone,
My brother, Hagar's son,
My brother, the wandering one.
Ishmael, my brother, hear my plea,
It was the angel who tied thee to me.
Time is running out, put hatred to sleep,
Shoulder to shoulder, let's water our sheep.
--Jewish poet
"Ishmael"
yishmâ‛ê'l
yish-maw-ale'
From H8085 and H410; God will hear; Jishmael, the name of Abraham's oldest son, and of five Israelites: - Ishmael.
willieH: Hi dusty... :happygrin:
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 09:48:34 PM
Paul, Cain was not born of Adam. When Cain was born, Eve said she had gotten a man from the Lord.
More of your
WILLFUL REFUSAL to believe what the
WORD, ...
SAYS...
Gen 4:1 ...and ...ADAM...
knew EVE his wife and
SHE CONCIEVED, and
BARE CAIN...
Plainly stated... Adam & Eve, "mated" ("knew" each other) and PROCREATION (concieved) resulted... :dontknow:
It boggles my mind that you can INSERT into this Scripture, an alternative LIE which says ADAM was not the father of CAIN... when Gen 4:1 plainly states that he was... :thumbdown:
Not "rocket science" there, dusty... Plain & simple, but just outside of your concocted
fictional agenda...
In your observation, you are assuming that Cain was the
FIRSTBORN of Adam
AND EVE... Scripture does NOT note CAIN to be their FIRSTBORN...
In the LAW of
YHVH the FIRSTBORN
MALES, who OPEN the WOMB, are HOLY (set apart) unto the LORD... (Luke 2:23 / Num 3:13 / Ex 22:29)
This is so written because
JESUS CHRIST was FIRSTBORN... and all males which do the same (open the womb) are known to be PARTICULAR in this way as is HE...
FIRSTBORN Males to open the Female womb are RARE, and are APPOINTED to HOLINESS... (set apart in the purpose of
YHVH)
That said dusty, ...Cain was hardly HOLY unto the LORD... so I must deduce that even though CAIN was Eve's first
male child, ...he was
NOT, her FIRST child, neither did he
OPEN her womb...
Though I note this as only a SPECULATION, ...I believe EVE's "exclamation" about CAIN, is so stated because many DAUGHTERS had already been born to HER (as a mother) prior to Cain... This was her way of saying ..."finally... its a BOY!" :dontknow:
For She said:
"I" (not
WE), have gotten a
MAN (male child) from
YHVH...
She did not include Adam in this statement (though it is plainly noted that He was the Father - Gen 4:1)...
Adam probably sired many sons with his daughters prior to the birth of CAIN... So when EVE finally concieved a MALE, her words bore: "
I have gotten a man from
YHVH..."
Who knows, maybe Eve had born SEVERAL, maybe even 100 Girls prior to Cain! No one can say... as NO notation of the FEMALES born to them is mentioned at all! ...but we KNOW that some, even MANY females must have been born... otherwise,
where did Cain's "wife" come from? As well as those dwelling in the "land of NOD"?
It is easy to explain the "Nod" population... Just as we men of today, leave the nest, and CLEVE unto our wives... so did they way back "in the day"! :laughing7:
If they (Adam & Eve) had 100 daughters, and THIS ONE was (finally) MALE... of course there would be EXCITEMENT... :boogie: :egyptdance: :boydance: :bgdance:
And given the OT mannerisms which showed men as having
many WIVES and even,
additional CONCUBINES... Adam more than likely, mated with his daughters as well as Eve... for NO LAW was in place to deter or even suggest such behaviors were inappropriate... :dontknow:
It is certainly possible and in all likelihood PROBABLE, that MANY MALES had been born to the
daughters of Adam & Eve, and some were possibly
sired by Adam, ...but EVE's FIRST
MALE child, was CAIN...
It is assumed that CAIN and ABEL were the 3rd and 4th humans to exist... which is really AS MUCH an
assumption, as NOT... :shakepoint:
There is no notation of daughters being born, but then again, '57 Chevy's aren't mentioned in the Scriptures either, even though they came into existence... :laughing7:
The notation of CAIN and ABEL was pertinent due to the crime committed by CAIN against ABEL... but who knows WHEN this took place? CAIN may have been 100 years even 200 years old! It is my observation that A LOT could happen in "100 or 200 years"...
And for that matter, TIME was not moving at the rate of speed we observe today... Heck, an hour back then might be equivalent to a YEAR now! No one can really say...
Men of today, including ourselves, look back at the historical notations in the Bible, and deduce by its noted CHRONOLOGY, that only 6000 "years" have occured... but what is NOT taken in consideration by most, is the RATE at which TIME moves... We look from our present observation of TIME, and then deduce it was ALWAYS moving at the rate it is today...
I say, ...NO WAY! :mnah:
TIME is best when SAVORED... SLOWLY... but today... no one has TIME for anything. Let alone, to CARE about those less fortunate then themselves... As "Christianity" preaches
HELL or like you dusty... ANNHILATION... they sit comfortably in their pews (conveniently including themselves in the "safety" of SALVATION), or before their computers, without concern that the DIRE message they propose to believe, is by them, SINGLY inhibited by their LACK of FERVENT activity!
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 09:48:34 PMShe did not say this about Abel. Cain and Able were nonidenticle twins with different fathers and different natures, or spirits.
What a COMPLETELY ...NON-BIBLICAL
speculation is this! There is no notation that these 2 were TWINS... :laughing7: ...please, me-bratha! :afFro: :rolleye:
The BIBLICAL sire of each of these 2 was ADAM... you just refuse to agree with what is WRITTEN...
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 09:48:34 PMThis is very tough for people who disregard the other books not cannonized by the catholic church. No problem for those who are grounded in the many, including the Targums of Palistine.
Methinks you live in your own little "personal" fairy tale...
There is a reason these books were not "cannonized"... it was because it is part of the PURPOSE of GOD to SEPARATE His WORD from writings of MAN...
There are MANY MANY "Biblical-like" writings that have survived time, ...but GOD is in CONTROL of HIS WORD... and has SEPARATED it from Man's false writings...
Had peripheral books such as those in the "APOCRAPHA" actually been inspired, they would have been INCLUDED in the WORD... To say otherwise, is to indicate that GOD does not address His concern as to what IS considered His
WORD, and what IS NOT... leaving this PARAMOUNT decision up to US... :thumbdown:
Just as GOD moved men to NOTE His WORD, He also moved men to SEPARATE it from peripheral human writings...
The evidences of these writings under SPIRITUAL scrutiny, reveal the VENGENT person of MAN... and fail to bear the LOVE and FORGIVENESS of LOVE which
IS GOD...
GOD created all things dusty... RIGHTLY without consent or consultation with
US... ALL things are worked AFTER the COUNSEL of HIS WILL... including what WAS and what WAS NOT included in the "canon"
You are presently enslaved by these peripheral writings (the
targums of Palestine) of ancient history, which blind you to the TRUTH which actually IS in the WORD of GOD, denying such things plainly written IN IT, as ADAM being the sire of CAIN...
You blatantly state OPPOSING words to what is written and then endorse and recommend, peripheral writings to us... :thumbdown:
maybe (hopefully) one day you shall
see this... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: SOtW on June 06, 2008, 08:09:04 AM
It is called the Serpent Seed Doctrine, and it is banned from discussion since it is a bunch of non-sense held by only one member of this board, but keeps making huge problems since he won't ever answer any challenges or questions presented to him.
:iagree:
:goodpost:
peaCe...
...willieH :icon_king:
WOULD they have been included? Look at who compiled your accepted books. The early catholic church. The same people who wiped out the other believers as heritics, burning them alive in the name of Jesus. Accepted by them.
Revelation 12:15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Just as Peter said.
2 Peter 2
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
willieH: Hello readers... :hithere:
READERS:
More nonsense from peacetroll... I post these comments for your consideration of his hypocritical words...
He endeavors to indicate that GOD is not in control of HIS WORD, and that the RCC ...is... :thumbdown:
The accepted SCRIPTURAL"canon" of today, is
NOT the accepted canon of the
Roman Catholic Church, which INCLUDES in THEIR canon... the books of the APOCRYPHA...
And in this hypocritical presentation, refers to "EXTRA-CANONICAL" books such as the APOCRYPHA as
basis for his beliefs from time to time... Asking we accept the
"targums of Palestine" for example... :rolleye:
In his presentation, ...he REMOVES what
IS WRITTEN (I give an example below) in the Scriptures to fit his theology... and inserts his own contrived fallacy in place of what
IS WRITTEN...
He presents "SERPENT SEED" doctrine as
SoTW noted a few replies earlier... never answering challenges... and continuing to pose things which are
NOT WRITTEN, while removing things which
ARE WRITTEN... :sigh:
:omg: PLEASE, ...Beware of this person... :mshock:
PEACETROLL:
Quote from: Peacetroll on June 14, 2008, 10:58:36 PM
WOULD they have been included? Look at who compiled your accepted books. The early catholic church. The same people who wiped out the other believers as heritics, burning them alive in the name of Jesus. Accepted by them.
Revelation 12:15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Just as Peter said.
2 Peter 2
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
:blahgreen: :blah: :blahgreen: :blah: :blahgreen: :blah:
You have
NOT the
TESTIMONY of
JESUS CHRIST, ...for He stated that the
OT was that which
TESTIFIED of
HIM...
And YOU blatantly deny such things as CAIN, being
sired by ADAM... which
IS PLAINLY WRITTEN in SCRIPTURE...
(Gen 4:1) And ADAM ...
knew... EVE, his wife; and she
CONCIEVED and bare
CAIN, and said: I have gotten a man from
YHVHThen you INSERT in its place, such UNBIBLICAL and UNFOUNDED nonsense as:
NON-IDENTICLE TWINS, and that CAIN and ABEL were of
DIFFERENT FATHERS,
Which
IS NOT WRITTEN in SCRIPTURE... :thumbdown:
Quote from: peacetrollShe did not say this about Abel. Cain and Able were nonidenticle twins with different fathers and different natures, or spirits.
Discrediting your doctrine AND
yourself in the process... :pitiful:
peaCe...
...willieH :icon_king:
I agree Willie,
a doctrine built upon Eve having sex with satan and producing Cain, when the scripture states this:
(Gen 4:1) And ADAM ...knew... EVE, his wife; and she CONCIEVED and bare CAIN, and said: I have gotten a man from YHVH
good point.
I'd temporarily locked this thread simply to review it 'cause I didn't realize it had gotten so big. Page 5 of this thread kinda creeped me out 'cause all of Peacetroll's posts sounded like emails that I'd gotten from Matt Slick 6 years ago when we had it out via email for a couple of days. Other than that, Peacetroll usually sounds like a gnostic on many of his posts on this thread. I'd previously inquired about JW doctrine, but got no reply. Can't remember which thread that was now.