Tentmaker Forum

If the wages of sin are death, but those wages have been paid why do we still die? Why do christian and non christian a like suffer the consequences of the fall such as cancer, addictions, strokes? If as in Adam all will die and in Christ all shall live, is the shall live part not for this life, in which case, what is the point of this life?

:sigh:

Quote from: natcat86 on February 12, 2010, 12:56:11 PM
If the wages of sin are death, but those wages have been paid why do we still die? Why do christian and non christian a like suffer the consequences of the fall such as cancer, addictions, strokes? If as in Adam all will die and in Christ all shall live, is the shall live part not for this life, in which case, what is the point of this life?

:sigh:

We do not remain dead.

I believe the purpose of this life is to become sanctified. I believe a very few will become sanctified in this age, but for those who do not, the knowledge and wisdom and love that they learn here will be taken with them and used in the next life for their sanctification (which I believe happens in the lake of fire).

willieH: Hi Nat... :hithere:

Quote from: natcat86 on February 12, 2010, 12:56:11 PM
If the wages of sin are death, but those wages have been paid why do we still die? Why do christian and non christian a like suffer the consequences of the fall such as cancer, addictions, strokes? If as in Adam all will die and in Christ all shall live, is the shall live part not for this life, in which case, what is the point of this life?

:sigh:

Your concerns are merited and deserve an explanation, Nat...  :friendstu:

The "point" is that "THIS LIFE" is about our GOD, ...NOT... about US, ...we (the Children of YHVH) are...

The LIVING/DYING/LIVING ...KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil... as IS KNOWN in the heart of Almighty YHVH God...

*see the parable of the "LOST [who became lost/destroyed] son" -- Luke 15:11-32 -- and is noted to BE:

1.  WITH the Father [LIVING]

2.  APART from the Father (and became LOST/destroyed) [DYING]

3.  (RETURNED to be) WITH the Father [LIVING]


THE COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE:

EVIL brings forth DEATH... IN DETAIL (all IN ADAM)
GOOD brings forth LIFE...  IN DETAIL (all IN CHRIST)


Both aspects of THE KNOWLEDGE must be FULLY and OUTWARDLY manifest in order that the COMPLETE and PERFECT  KNOWLEDGE of YHVH (which is ONE KNOWLEDGE), be MANIFEST (from the Heart of YHVH) before ALL...

That YHVH --- BE --- ALL in ALL...

GOOD -- IS -- FOREVER exemplified, practiced and FREE within FOREVER

EVIL -- IS -- FOREVER exemplified, practiced and CONFINED (to this realm of time) in BONDAGE within FOREVER

Thanks guys I think I am going through 'the dark night of the soul' I can't find Him anywhere. Not in any tangible way at least. Never been through this before. Its as though He is gone. I'm scared.

Praying for you Nat :icon_flower:

Nat, there's nowhere you can go that He's not there.  I've been in similar places, and it is scary.  Try to hang onto when David said, even if he made his bed in sheol, God was there with him.  He'll bring you through this.  HE will do it.

Thank you both.

If the purpose of this life is for us to know God then what about all the peoples in the OT who God didn't reveal HImself to, and made the Isrealites keep seperate from, was the purpose different for them, or all the peoples who have died without hearing the Gospel? I can understand the purpose of life being coming into a relationship with God, if there is the chance of that happening but what about the majority of people who have not had that chance?

Quote from: natcat86 on February 13, 2010, 07:26:17 PM
Thank you both.

If the purpose of this life is for us to know God then what about all the peoples in the OT who God didn't reveal HImself to, and made the Isrealites keep seperate from, was the purpose different for them, or all the peoples who have died without hearing the Gospel? I can understand the purpose of life being coming into a relationship with God, if there is the chance of that happening but what about the majority of people who have not had that chance?

Ro 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

1Pt 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Everyone is judged and it will be according to a persons life.   If they have not heard in this life, they will not be judged as if they had.   

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do not believe this life has the sole purpose of "knowing God"  I think it is preparation for something much greater than we can perceive now.

Quote from: natcat86 on February 13, 2010, 03:40:24 AM
Thanks guys I think I am going through 'the dark night of the soul' I can't find Him anywhere. Not in any tangible way at least. Never been through this before. Its as though He is gone. I'm scared.

Oh nat, I know exactly how you are feeling. It is the worst of times when we lose that childlike trust for our Father and enter in to the dark night. One thing to remember is that joy will come with the morning (and the morning WILL come!).

I believe that God has revealed Himself to everyone in some way or another, and that those who seek Him will find Him.

Hang in there, James is right, God is always with you. In Him we live and move and have our being. He loves you.

NATCAT, i know all about the long dark nights of the soul.....Let me talk to you....

....You have to have 'rests' from the bible, thats all you need, a rest away from it all.  

I would go through phases of something like this....(and recently i have)....

"Thanks God!  Thanks for a life of misery, thanks that 2 of my best friends have died this month!  Thanks for the depression, anxiety, unable to eat or think straight....Thanks for giving me a  sex drive, just as strong as my survival instinct WHICH IM NOT ALLOWED TO USE! (Unless I get married, which noone really does these days).  Thanks for the confusion, thanks for the way my own friend turned against me the other day and almost killed me (i couldnt hit him back i loved him too much) Etc etc....Whoa....what a God of love!"

After this i would normally take out my frustrations on some innocent bystanding Christian on a forum somewhere and tell them under no uncertain terms that I was right and God was wrong....How if i was God i would save the world and make everything great and everyone would be happy....Most patiently put up with it (my ramblings)...Although some did tell me i was going to burn in hell forever...But you kinda expect that! lol!
And who knows, maybe i do deserve a little 'fire' for such thoughts, but as a limited man with a limited brain, feelings, and seeing no light...sometimes in our darkest hour we are ready to wrestle with God Himself.
Although look back at what my problems were and how many of them 'really' were caused 'by' God?
Its easy to blame God when everything in our lives goes pear shaped or when things dont make sense.  But usually we dont see the plank in our own eye or even try to sort out things sensibly on our own...Instead of giving more love to make things better, normally humans clam up, and turn bitter and hateful and angry, and we just add to our own problems and misery...Knowing full well what we are doing is wrong....yet all the while blaming God.

But...We have to remember who we are....the created, not the creator.  The creator has more knowledge than the created...

And the sad part is that I could have been a better friend to my two lost loved ones...A far better friend.  I could have been their for them more...I wish i had the chance to remedy that, but its gone...although i hope, not gone forever.
Sin stinks...It really really stinks.

At moments like that, one needs a rest...a few steps back, to take in the bigger picture.
Dont go around telling everyone what you think of God, or teling everyone your problems or taking your anger out on others....Just meditate...take a deep breath, relax, and take a few steps back...thats my advice to you.

Sometimes your head will just get full of stuff that makes you sad, anxious, depressed etc, ESPECIALLY if your reading the bible ALL the time...Theres MORE to life than a BIBLE.
People (Christians) FORGET that God created the UNIVERSE...He is to be found EVERYWHERE...not just in the pages of a book....In fact, you need the TWO to really understand in my opinion. (a mixture of the bible and the universe).
The famous atheist Anthony Flew and many others found the creator in science.
You wont find God either at a PC all day.  You WILL find Him in other people....the human race is very varied and vast and sometimes someone will just say somthing that will really hit home for you...It could be an old woman in a shop, or even a child after you rescue His football from up a tree....It could be anything and it could happen anywhere...and then youll think "Hey that makes sense! So THATS what that part of the Bible meant", and so on and so forth....
God speaks in very strange and amazing and often amusing ways, and we are IN HIM ALL the time.
(in Him we move and have our being/not far from anyone of us).  We have to remember all that stuff.
You might see God today in a tramp in the street rather than in the Bible.

The thing about God is as the old saying goes "God hates a coward".
Sometimes He doesnt answer....Sometimes He is silent.
Two of my best friends have just died...one of them only 31 from a massive heart attack...The guy never smoked, drank, always kept fit etc....its just unfair, it doesnt seem right....Where was God?  Why has this happend to my friend?  How could He do that to my friend?  Where are you God?
And i can shout, scream, holler, cry, or just give in and die myself, but what good would it do me?
I can't bring them back.

All i can do, and all you can do, is trust.

God is love, His mercy endures forever?  Savior of ALL men? - I will be holding God to His promises to me and to the rest of the world, as I do my best to continue on in love, because its all any of us really have, while at the same time, trusting that I DONT KNOW EVERYTHING.  That perhaps God has a GREATER PLAN to unravel....That perhaps one day i might see my friends again and never have to say goodbye....to be able to have infinite time to enjoy my friends....to be able to truley love without the stabbing fear of loving too much and hurting too much as a result when they leave....Maybe my friends are in a place right now, full of love and wouldnt come back anyway!  I just DONT KNOW!

Loveing takes a real hero...its not for wimps.
Its easy to take the easy path, to hate and give up, to not love anyone...when they die, do you miss them if you hate them?  No.

What im trying to say is that love is the most important, greater than faith and hope, God Is love itself....If you really love, you wont have any fear left...You wont have time for it.  A bad thought will enter your head and youll just think "shove off...i dont have time for you, i have people to love, good things to do, joy to bring to others".

We can never know all the answers, but i do know that the Bible says the most important thing we can do is love, and that is what we should strive for.
Faith and love go hand in hand...If you love, the rest all falls into place.
Im not saying you dont love natcat, im sure you do, but you have to stand firm on these 'bad' or uneasy thoughts and tell them to shove off when they come, then take a few steps back, a rest from the bible, and dive into the vastness of humanity outside....then come back and read the bible.

Ive noticed a lot of Christians these days who never seem to leave the house. I used to be one of them, and it made me ill.
I see the same names in forums EVERYDAY, everytime i enter them its the same names, the same people, and i think "Dont you work?  Dont you go out?  No wonder your head is constantly full of questions....These people cant just be satisfied with knowing that God wants them to love...they have to know EVERYTHING.
They debate ALL day everyday, getting more and more mixed up and confused.  Not only are they constantly asking others about there own doubts, they are seeing everyone elses doubts as well, which then becomes one of their doubts....WE CANT KNOW EVERYTHING!  But they keep looking, hopeing for a quick answer but...sometimes the answers dont come right away....Sometimes they take years.
But i can assue you of this, it all comes back to love.

The WHOLE message of the Bible is love and forgiveness.
God tells Israel not to sin, Israel sins, God gets angry, God punishes the sin, Israel is miserable, Israel comes back to God, God forgives, God tells them not to sin again...so Israel sins, God gets angry....etc etc.

Its easy to read a 'part' of the Bible and think "ARRRGH!  This is horrible, why has God done this! It seems so bad!"
But when we do that we are LOSING SIGHT of the bigger picture, which is as i have just described above....God tells people not to sin, they sin, god gets angry and punishes, the people come back to God, God forgives...and it goes on and on....

The ENTIRE message of the Bible is that one day God will be all and in all, that every knee shall bow, that EVERYTHING is going to work out great.
THAT is the part you have to accept, and forget all those niggly doubts...Dont think about them, they will be answered when the time is RIGHT for them to be answered.  Remember that God keeps us supressed in many ways for our own good...He keeps problems in our lives to see what we are made of....we will never be free of all the worries and woes....UNLESS we just put our faith in His love, and His declaration that He will wipe away the tears from ALL faces, every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord, that God is the savior of ALL people.

We have too look at the bigger picture, and then get on with it.
Does it matter what colour of panties Judas was wearing when he stole the money?
Does it matter how many people Samson really knocked out with a donkeys jawbone?
Does it really matter who was the best at marbles, Peter or Matthew?
Do the little niggly questions really matter?
Do you not think God would rather have you out there in the world spreading joy, peace and love to others or would He rather you spent all day feeling down, constantly trying to work EVERYTHING out?


Peace natcat, lots of love.
Hope this helps, i just rabbit on sometimes, so discard it if it was no use to you.
I just see you asking many questions in here a lot, and it reminds me of how i used to be.
Sometimes there is no answers....Martin Cisneros doesnt have all the answers, Gary Amirault doesnt have all the answers, Even Jesus didnt have all the answers (noone knows the day or hour exept God)....And I dont have all the answers....But i do have one answer which makes sense does it not?  The answer being LOVE, which is the same message anyone on the forums would tell you, the same message Gary or Jesus would give you and the same message God would give you, because He is love.

You have to decide what it is YOU believe.
Because on forums its always the same....someone will make a great case for something...then someone else will come along and pick fault with it...then youll think....who is right, who is wrong?  And youll get more and more mixed up.
It goes on like that ALL the time.
Youll be going along quite happily in life, thinking 'this is what i believe' and someone will come along and say "your wrong", and are you going to just belive them?
Is that faith?

Answer these questions honestly...

Is God love?
Does His mercy endure forever?
If God is love, does that mean He really is love?
Does love torcher people, annihalate people or throw people in a fire forever?
Is God all powerful?
Does God want all people to be saved?
Do you think God will save all people since He has the power to do so and because He is love and His mercy endures forever?
Is God the savior of all men and especially of believers?
How many people will confess Christ (which they can only do if they have the spirit of God in them)?  A handful?  A few million?  Everyone?
If every knee will bow and confess Christ as Lord, who WONT be saved?
With love in control of the entire universe, can anything really go wrong that wont be righted?

Isaiah 40
4Every valley shall be raised up,

every mountain and hill made low;

the rough ground shall become level,

the rugged places a plain.

5And the glory of the Lord will be revealed,

and all mankind together will see it.

For the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

Right im off to get some sleep.
Blessings Natcat, lots of love.

 :omg: :bowing: :goodpost: :dsunny:

Thanks Lomarah, good to know I'm not the only one.

FOMK, thank for the reply. I have believed for a while now that if God is the God of the Bible then UR must be true so no doubts there. I believe He is the God of the bible, 90% of the time. I just feel like I am very far from Him, not cause of sin or guilt which used to make me feel distant. When I pray it feels like I'm talking to myself, there is no response. It feels like there is no God, but luckily my experiences in the past are enough to keep reasuring me there is. And unfortuantely because HE is invisable feelings can be all we have to go on sometimes.

The other day I prayed for a sign and a dove flew overhead and I thought if that is a sign of You being there then you are way above my head and flying away from me. If its not a sign,  :sigh:.

I want proof that I cant put down to the wishful interpretations of coincindences.

Check out Testimonies for an update.

Split a log and you will find Me, lift a stone and I will be there...

Stigmata?

Quotewhat is the point of this life?

The answer is simple, and it's in your heart, that's why you are struggling and unsatiafied. If this life was for sanctification and all that then a simple list of duties would suffice...but you are learning by your feeling that that doesn't mean anything.

What is it that you desire?...I can read your heart my friend, you want rest, acceptance, rescpect, love...you want joy and happiness...you want pleasure and prosperity...you want GOODNESS...

So what's the point of this life....you want to share goodness, but when you look around all you see is the opposites and that's why you are struggling....not out of weakness but out of the desire of your heart to see goodness.

Peace.

Not Stigmata:    The Gospel of Thomas

Topic--It is all about what is "within" us... God

 :mblush: maybe I was feeling so low because my theological knowledge is based on films not the Bible.  :mblush:

Don't worry natcat, most church leaders knowledge isn't based on the Bible either, but on Dantes Inferno :winkgrin:

Quote from: natcat86 on February 12, 2010, 12:56:11 PM
If the wages of sin are death, but those wages have been paid why do we still die? Why do christian and non christian a like suffer the consequences of the fall such as cancer, addictions, strokes? If as in Adam all will die and in Christ all shall live, is the shall live part not for this life, in which case, what is the point of this life?

:sigh:

Just a few shoot from the hip responses.  It all comes down to definitions - "sin" and "death" and "life".  For as in Adam all DIED (past tense, if I can trust tenses in translations - I'm at the mercy of translators), even so in Christ shall all be Made Alive.  We are appointed Once To Die and Then the Judgment.  All our days are passed away in The Wrath (Ps 90:9).  A person by faith passes FROM DEATH to LIFE.  (John 5:24.)

The point of this life, to me, is to be Perfected.  As Christ is perfected by those experiences he undergoes ("passion of the Christ") us ditto, "in his steps", Heb 2:10, Heb 5:8,9, I Pet 2:21.  The Church ("called out") of the First Born, Just Men Made Perfect, Heb 12:23.

Paul called himself the chief of sinners but said he found grace because he sinned in his ignorance, as do we all - when we know better, we do better, and we only really KNOW what we have lived through - the purpose of this "life" (or death more like it, "mortality"), to KNOW and to PERSONIFY what we have Learned.

I feel we have moments of Perfection, of Translation, when we are In Heaven - can never stay there - but we get tastes of that joy to carry on - and we get tastes of despair too but after three days in the belly of the whale we say "be it unto me according to thy will" - unto me and unto everybody else, lo and behold God really IS In His Heaven, and Man's Goings really ARE Of The Lord and the Most High really DOES Rule in the Affairs of Men and the despair passes - until the next test - always harder and harder - until daybreak I guess.

shunammite:  :goodpost:  I agree completely!
WW: LOL where did you find that chart? It's frickin hilarious!!

frickin???
pathetic.
hilarious???
again — pathetic.
Dante was, what is, the Hollywood of the day.
Teaching fear from the mind of man.
for what?...$$$
dollars
and
cents
pounds
sheckels
and
pence

Quote from: lomarah on February 24, 2010, 04:54:09 AM
WW: LOL where did you find that chart? It's frickin hilarious!!

A Catholic website, where else...?  :winkgrin:
catholica[/color].com.au/peregrinus/images/DanteInferno_400x606.jpg]http://www.catholica.com.au/peregrinus/images/DanteInferno_400x606.jpg (http://www.[color=red)

Larger vesion of the same pic (http://iws.ccccd.edu/Andrade/BritLitI2322/images/NEWINF.GIF)

 

  good stuff Shun , :thumbsup:
  good to see you posting here again sis !  :icon_flower:

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 24, 2010, 09:13:38 AM

Quote from: lomarah on February 24, 2010, 04:54:09 AM
WW: LOL where did you find that chart? It's frickin hilarious!!

A Catholic website, where else...?  :winkgrin:
catholica[/color].com.au/peregrinus/images/DanteInferno_400x606.jpg]http://www.catholica.com.au/peregrinus/images/DanteInferno_400x606.jpg (http://www.[color=red)

Larger vesion of the same pic (http://iws.ccccd.edu/Andrade/BritLitI2322/images/NEWINF.GIF)

Of course, I shoulda known  :laugh2:
Beloved Servant: I guess it is pathetic, but to me it is hilarious that anyone would have come up with something so ridiculous and so obviously non-scriptural. To those who it was used to terrify I guess it wouldn't have been so hilarious.

Quote from: natcat86 on February 12, 2010, 12:56:11 PM
If the wages of sin are death, but those wages have been paid why do we still die? Why do christian and non christian a like suffer the consequences of the fall such as cancer, addictions, strokes? If as in Adam all will die and in Christ all shall live, is the shall live part not for this life, in which case, what is the point of this life?

:sigh:

Nat, what makes you think that anyone can die?????


Do all people (good/bad) live for ever ?????


Yes...  All lives forever.... No death. No death because death has been (past tense ) done away with....

sence the bad people don't live for ever in "hell" and we as UR's believe that they will at some time in the future - will see the light sort of speaking, then now matter where they are until God gets them, even they live forever. so there is no death... and no sin.

Unless you see pain and suffering as a penalty of something done wrong...

In your statement above, things that happen because of the fall is a loaded question, is it really because of a fall that mankind suffers????

thats just my thoughts