self-amputation - better than go to Hell?

[B_T]

# Matt 5:29: "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.

So, according to this Hell is really a horrible place.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Or, since hell means at it's essence, separation from God, which isn't a condition dependent upon not dwelling in a body.......and hands speak of covenantal works....... it could mean that, like the Israelites who lost the right to covenantal works because of disobedience, and lost their vision (without a vision the people perish) to even see the new covenant, that it would be better that you remove that which is causing the offense (ie. hardness of heart), before ALL OF YOU is weighed in the balances and found wanting. Know ye not a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Blessings to you.......

[Kimberlaina]

Isn't this the passage where Gehenna is actually translated into Hell?  That would mean that Jesus is talking about a junkyard where bodies were burned, not a hot place down under.

[70sevens]

Even if hell in the passage means Gehenna, junkyard at the first place,
it has more important meaning that is spiritual.
The spritual meaning of Gehenna, which is applicable to us,
is horrible place where we should avoid.

Gehenna/Junkyard in the bible, is the sign of the horrible place.

[Sarah]

So, according to this Hell is really a horrible place.

Yes....just keep in mind that it applies to this life.

[gatheredfragments]

For myself, I've behaved in ways in my past, and sometimes I repeat those behaviors, that are not Christ like, and it is better that I remove/cut away that behavior for the sake of those around me more than for myself in many instances. 

We are not to be a stumbling block or set one before our brothers and sisters, and actions that cause others grief, or lead them astray, or frustrate peace are better off discontinued before it forces a 'reaction' to our actions.  Everything has consequence.

Hell is when my 'greedy eye' controls my thoughts.  When my "lonely heart' leads my pursuits of others.  When my 'thirst for knowledge' leads to creating chasms of distance between myself and others.  Hell is when I am busy pursuing my personal desires and forgetting how perfect my life is, as it is, needing only Jesus to make it complete in my soul and spirit. 

Casting off our wrong behaviors is sometimes a very dramatic event for us.  It might require real concentration and devotion as does a fast or sacrifice symbolically.  The love of God gives us that power to overcome, and our love for Him moves us to obedience. 

jmo

[Sarah]

yes, gatheredfragments.  When I was asking God about hell, I turned to the above scripture.  I said,"O.k.  if hell isn't what I thought it was..then what are the worms and fire?"  I immediately heard lust and guilt.

In my life at the time He was leading me away from a body of believers that perpetuated that thing in me that made me never satisfied, and always guilty.  And cutting away that body was like cutting away 'eyes' and 'arms'.  It hurt, but was a better pain than living in that constant cycle.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's interesting Sarah......He defined lust for me as desiring ANYTHING apart from His perfect will. Guilt I can see in somewhat the same continuing condition apart from the perfect will of the Spirit also, as in choosing lust over perfect will, WOULD produce guilt. I could also see it as blood-guiltiness stemming from the first wrong choice. Thanks for sharing that....... :thumbsup:

[70sevens]

My right eye and right hand are myself.
And I, myself, stumble and sin continually.
Jesus ask me to cut that (myself) off.
How can I cut myself off by myself?

There is only one possible way on earth. The way is Jesus.
Jesus will lead me to my cross,
and there I can cut off my right eye and right hand.
And then I will be resurrected in Christ.
This is the only way.

If we do not go through this cross, then we have to face hell.
Jesus is promoting Himself here.
But sadly nobody recognizes it.

[Isa 65:2]
All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people,
who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--

[Mississippi Heretic]

Here is Dallas Willard's take on this verse:

"What, exactly, is Jesus doing here? One would certainly be mistaken in thinking that he is advising anyone to actually dismember himself as a way of escaping damnation. One must keep the context in mind. Jesus is exhibiting the righteousness that goes beyond "the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees." This latter was a righteousness that took as its goal to not do anything wrong. If not doing anything wrong is the goal, that could be achieved by dismembering yourself and making actions impossible. What you cannot do you certainly will not do. Remove your eye, your hand, etc., therefore, and you will roll into heaven a mutilated stump. The price of dismemberment would be small compared to the reward of heaven. That is the logical conclusion for one who held the beliefs of the scribes and the pharisees. Jesus is urging them to be consistent with their principles and do in practice what their principles imply. He reduces their principle--that righteousness lies in not doing anything wrong--to the absurd, in the hope that they will forsake their principle and see and enter the righteousness that is "beyond the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees"--beyond, where compassion or love and not sacrifice is the fundamental thing. Jesus, of course, knew that if you dismembered yourself you could still have a hateful heart, toward God and toward man. It wouldn't really help toward righteousness at all. That is the basic thing he is teaching in this passage. Failure to appreciate the logic makes it impossible to get his point."

[Raggedy Anne]

Speaking of literalism driving people nuts,,,, did y'all see this story in the news:

Wed January 9, 2008

HAYDEN, Idaho (AP) -- A man who believed he bore the biblical "mark of the beast" used a circular saw to cut off one hand, then he cooked it in the microwave and called 911, authorities said.

The man, in his mid-20s, was calm when Kootenai County sheriff's deputies arrived Saturday. He was in protective custody in the mental health unit of Kootenai Medical Center.

"It had been somewhat cooked by the time the deputy arrived," sheriff's Capt. Ben Wolfinger said. "He put a tourniquet on his arm before, so he didn't bleed to death. That kind of mental illness is just sad."

Rest of the story.....
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/09/hand.cut.off.ap/index.html

[SeekerSA]

Yeah this is sick.

I wish someone would take these doom and gloom ETM prophets to task, mirror their web pages and in a year or so when their prophesy does not come to pass publish it in all the papers and the news and expose these charlatans for who they really are.

The is no lietral Mark of the Beast and there is NO HELL and there is NO RAPTURE.

Blessings

[Mississippi Heretic]

Yeah this is sick.

I wish someone would take these doom and gloom ETM prophets to task, mirror their web pages and in a year or so when their prophesy does not come to pass publish it in all the papers and the news and expose these charlatans for who they really are.

The is no lietral Mark of the Beast and there is NO HELL and there is NO RAPTURE.

Blessings

Seeker...i visit here more and more just to read what you have to say!  Keep it up, man :happygrin:

[SeekerSA]

Hi MH

TY for the compliments but be cautious.  I have but a piece of the puzzle.  test all what you read, that is the safe way.

Blessings

[SpiritDriven]

Jesus was yet to die on the Cross, as he preached about the comming Kingdom to the Jews.
He would have had them shaking in their sandels when he spoke about Gehenna to them, because the Jews knew what Gehenna was.

During the thousand year Kingdom there will not be any Jails, you steal somthing with your left hand....you go into the Gehenna of Fire at Jerusalem, or you have the option of having your left hand cut off, and thrown in the fire instead.

Imagine all those people from the Nations making pilgramige to Jerusalem to pay homage to the King....walking past Gehenna seeing all those corpses and body parts burning, and what is not burning is infested with worms.

Any wonder Isaiah reffered to that scene as an abhorrance to all flesh!

I do not think you will find too many Law Breakers in that Kingdom, with out parts of their bodies missing if they are still alive....crikey! talk about ruling with a rod of Iron!

Arnt you glad we live in this current era of Grace......instead of the next comming Kingdom era, that Jesus was sent to the Jews only to tell them about....he even told the disciples not to go by the road of the Nations, or even to Samaria when speaking about this....

In this day and Age the Gentiles read these passages and think Jesus was talking to them....he wasnt....he was yet to attone for us on the Cross when he spoke of Gehenna to the house of Israel....... Paul was commissioned to speak on Salvation to the Gentiles later ....and you will note Jesus did not tell the other disciples to tell the other Nations about Salvation either....until after the act of attonement on the Cross.

Those at the first Ressurection go to the heavenlies, they never get to see the Gehenna out side Jerusalem on Earth.....and the rest of the dead will not rise again until the Thousand year Kindom on Earth comes to an end....when The Gehenna of fire goes out....New Heaven New Earth era = out with the old, in with the new...ooops where did Gehenna go...out with the old.

Peace

[Reverend G]

Thanks, Spirit!  So many preach that He spoke all kinds of gloom and doom, yet they forget the context of the words.  Of course, they also seem to forget that what He said was before He changed everything for us!

[SeekerSA]

Hi SD

Not quite sure of what you are inferring

Gehenna today

(http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellPhotos/hinnon8.JPG)

Click pic for link

Blessings

[SpiritDriven]

Hi Seeker.....thats Gehenna today for sure.....we currently live in an era of Grace, things are going to change when Jesus returns to establish the Kingdom reign on Earth.....

Only mortal Human beings living on the Earth during that Thousand years need to be afraid of Gehenna if they step out of line with the King....mind you Gehenna will dissapear again forever next time when the Thousand years come to an end.....in fact so will the entire old Earth we live on now.

When Jesus Spoke of Gehenna to the House of Israel, he was not reffering to what Main stream Christianity today refers to as hell....hell does not exist.

Peace

[SeekerSA]

Hi

Well I am still not sure what you imply.  If all are going to dwell in the middle east, why I do not know? Then Israel sure is going to be very crowded, let alone Jerusalem

I don't think blood or fire will be the problem, rather the excrement of 6 Bn odd people.  That in itself will be hell on earth. :eeew:  That is if there will be enough food and water for the folk or do you think it is manna and the rock again?

Blessings

[SpiritDriven]

Hello Again Seeker.....the Entire Earth will no doubt be inhabited during the Kingdom Period, by Flesh and blood humans like us, just living in a different era/age/eon of Gods plan for man.

Thy Kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
On Earth as it is in Heaven.......

Who where the people Jesus was preaching this Earthly Kingdom that is to come too....

Romans 15.8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

It was to the Jews ! the House of Israel !

Mathew 10.
5 These twelve Jesus commissions, charging them, saying, "Into a road of the nations you may not pass forth, and into a city of the Samaritans you may not be entering.
6 Yet be going rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Isaiah 66
23And it hath been from month to month, And from sabbath to sabbath, Come do all flesh to bow themselves before Me, Said Jehovah.
24And they have gone forth, And looked on the carcases of the men Who are transgressing against me, For their worm dieth not, And their fire is not quenched, And they have been an abhorrence to all flesh!

Gehenna is a place of Physical Death and the burning of Corpses and the cut off body parts of transgressors during the Kingdom Period only.....

Gehenna was never the Hell that mainstream Christianity believes in.....the Hell that main stream Christianity believes in....has never existed...except in the imaginings of men.

Peace

[SpiritDriven]

So how has Main Stream Christianity managed to enslave so many to the Doctrines of Demons ? (see opening verses of 1 Timothy 4)

Those verses from Mark, chapter nine and Matthew, chapter five on how Jesus said that it's better to cut off your hand and lose an eye than get tossed into hell, where the fire don't get quenched and the worm don't die?

Concordance reference...Strong's, page 478. Young's, pages 474-75) that the word Jesus used there was Gehenna.

The Nations...the Gentiles read those passages today and think Jesus was talking to them about the alternative to Salvation....he was never refering to us, he even instructed the disciples not to go via the road of the Nations speaking of this.

Jesus had not even attoned for us at the Cross yet.....

Half the Church leaders in Main Stream Christianity have been blinded by God....of the remainder, some are becomming suspiciouse of Main Stream teachings, and the rest that have come to the relisation of the Truth.....suffer incredible reproach if they speak out....(see 1 Timothy 4)

Peace

[SeekerSA]

Hi SD

The amputation bit I many here will differ on and I have covered this on my blog in 8 teaching regarding Jesus' teaching on hell. (click link in my signature)

The blindness of the mainstream I am addressing in various threads here but I do not believe God is blinding them.  They teach Jesus, just a perverted gospel.

I like you believe in no hell but the LoF IMO is not Gehenna either.

There links to the individual teachings on  the Bible Threatenings Explained (click) board with lead ins to the articles.  There are also some good papers on Tentmaker, just type in hell on the search box.

Blessings

[jenna]

A few questions Seekersa. If there is no literal hell or mark of the beast, why are both mentioned? I don't believe in an eternal hell where sinners burn forever, but I do believe in hell, where sinners will be cast into a lake of fire and burn up and be gone forever. The mark of the beast is a different story. There is an actual mark, but it is more spiritual than a physical mark. It is one that separates God's people from Satan's.

[SeekerSA]

A few questions Seekersa. If there is no literal hell or mark of the beast, why are both mentioned? I don't believe in an eternal hell where sinners burn forever, but I do believe in hell, where sinners will be cast into a lake of fire and burn up and be gone forever. The mark of the beast is a different story. There is an actual mark, but it is more spiritual than a physical mark. It is one that separates God's people from Satan's.

Are you asking me or telling me?

I suggest you read the articles I posted mentioned in the earlier post.

We have discussed the MoB in detail here already and you are close but have a ways to go.

Blessings

[martincisneros]

First of all, I just did a re-study of this whole subject following each reference to Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus in the Scriptures.  This is the beginning of my 7th year in this message and throughout the first 5 to 6 years of my belief in the Universal Restoration, I would have been considered a "Restorationist," per the nomenclature of 19th century Universalists.  My first 5 years as a Universalist, I would have had the same opinion as John Murray and Elhanan Winchester (two eminent 18th Century Universalists), that any Universalist that didn't believe in temporary after life punishments should be viewed with suspicion. 

But the Lord sorta did something in my life a week ago, and uh.... I decided to re-study the subject in the aftermath.

For those who've teetered on saying this, but haven't quite had the nerve to fully go here, I'll say it for you, k?  :happygrin:

THERE IS NO HELL...THERE IS NO HELL...THERE IS NO HELL...THERE IS NO HELL...THERE IS NO HELL...THERE IS NO HELL...THERE IS NO HELL...THERE IS NO HELL...THERE IS NO HELL...THERE IS NO HELL...THERE IS NO HELL...THERE IS NO HELL...

# Matt 5:29: "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.

So, according to this Hell is really a horrible place.

The particular word that we have here in this passage of Scripture that gets mistranslated is "Gehenna."  And if it meant "Hell," then answer this for me:  why is there not a single translation of the Old Testament that'll translate the Valley of Hinnom as "Hell?"  You can find translations that'll translate "Sheol" occaisionally as "Hell," but not the Valley of Hinnom, which is Gehenna in the N.T. nomenclature.

Every single reference to "Gehenna" in the New Testament is regarding:

1.  false teaching;
2.  false teachers;
3.  disciples of false teachers;
4.  the impact upon body and soul that false teachers have, in contrast with terrorists that'll only destroy the physical body if they can;
5.  abuses of the tongue and their effects upon the body and soul.

These are the only contexts that "Gehenna" is used in.  It is better to self-mutilate than to allow the mutilation to come from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of non-effect.  Better to self-terrorize your own body than to allow false teachers to do so with their mixtures of law and grace.  Literally, you could take some of this teaching from Jesus to be the nullification of circumcision as a means of entrance into the Covenant of God.

Even if hell in the passage means Gehenna, junkyard at the first place,
it has more important meaning that is spiritual.
The spritual meaning of Gehenna, which is applicable to us,
is horrible place where we should avoid.

Gehenna/Junkyard in the bible, is the sign of the horrible place.

Sorry, there is no "Horrible place whatsoever!"  If there was one prior to the crucifixion of Christ, then He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men and to the rebellious, according to the Psalms.  68th, I think, is the one that Paul quotes along these lines.  The only "horrible place" is to be lukewarm because of the mixture of law and grace in teaching New Covenant believers.

The Bible indicates something fearful about the resurrection.  The basis for repentance is given to us in Acts chapter 17 that God in His goodness had let mankind slide for so long, but He's set a day in which He'll judge the world through Jesus Christ.  The Bible says that we'll receive in our bodies for the things that were done in the body.  This is the terror of the Lord and not a "destination."

Your two choices on where the wicked are right now, that have already died, is that they're either still in their graves awaiting the resurrection, or, they're in Paradise outside of the New Jerusalem, "walking in the light of that city" according to Revelation 21-22, unable to enter into New Jerusalem for the next age or two.  And they're being healed by the leaves of the trees.  The New Testament word "Hades" is the New Testament equivalent of the Old Testament word "Sheol."  It means either the invisible realm, or the grave.

"Eternal" isn't "Eternal" in the modern expectation of eternity.  Neither ages, nor ages of ages mean "eternal."  Olam in the Old Testament in one place means just simply 3 days, while in other places it can be taken to mean an age.  "Aiona ton aiona" which is "ages of ages" can be one of three things:  1.  the five month period of torment that those who receive the mark of the beast are tormented during in the book of Revelation;  2. an indefinitely long period of time;  3. galactic coordinates that when the sun, moon, earth, and stars reach this particular place as the Universe expands, then there will be no more waiting on the Restoration of all things.  In Isaiah chapter 34, we find the land given over to fire to the ages of ages.  And then afterwards, the land is given over to all kinds of animals that were considered to be bad omens in the Old Testament -- again, to the ages of ages.  There's no reason to assume that God will work the same miracle for the animals involved that He worked for the three Hebrew guys in the book of Daniel.  It's no part of the Hosea 2:18 covenant that I've been able to find so far.  And since the particular land in question in the middle east is neither engulfed to the present day in perpetual flames, and neither is it the habitation of the animals mentioned in Isaiah 34 to the exclusion of everyone else.  Then there's two forms of proof for you that "ages of ages" isn't the strongest words for "forever and ever" that the early Apostles could have used.

We have entered into the time period described in the closing part of Ephesians chapter 3 that's called the age of ages, when the message will be the "Everlasting Gospel" that'll be heralded to all nations as a part of their discipling before the Lord.  Right now, we're in the midst of the 3rd and 4th seals of the Apocalypse being opened.  With the opening of the 7th seal, the mystery that God has evangelized to His Apostles and Prophets concerning Jesus being a corresponding ransom for all men is about to be the message from then until the end of the millenium when death and Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire, as well as anything else that Jesus didn't pay the price for with His Life's Blood.  This message is the seed of the new heavens and earth.  And then there will be no more curse, and the ages will commence when every Prodigal outside of the sacred city will be brought to bow and to confess in the Name of Jesus that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father!!