Heb. 3:11-19

[Gary Amirault]

Here's a request for info on a verse. Have a crack at it:


Hello Gary

I love your website, i think it's great.
I was having a conversation with my uncle today and he brought up the following scripture


Heb 3:11 So5613 I swore3660 in1722 my3450 wrath,3709 They(1487) shall not enter1525 into1519 my3450 rest.)2663

Heb 3:17 but with whom was He grieved forty years? was it not with those who did sin, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 and to whom did He swear that they shall not enter into His rest, except to those who did not believe? --
Heb 3:19 and we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.


He stumped me with it and I don't know how to get around it, because if they cannot enter into God's rest then it ultimately means that not everyone is reconciled.

Your help with this would be greatly appreciated

Love in Jesus

[Kratos]

Gary,

I would remind the questioner that the things that happened to these ancient people did so for our examples and were written for our admonition. God's Kingdom and people are a spiritual nation and not a natural one and our inheritance is a spiritual one and not real estate in the Middle East.

We know that when the children of Israel were delivered from Egypt by the blood of natural lambs, this was a type and our example how we are delivered from the world and the devil by the blood of the true Lamb of God. Just because the Egyptians perished in the night by the Angel of Death does not mean that anyone is going to Hell. It was a type.

When they went down into the Red Sea, it was a type of baptism as we were in Christ when He died and was buried and came up on the other side to newness of life. The fact that the Egyptians drowned in the Red Sea does not mean that some will not be saved. It was a type.

The were baptised into the cloud as they witnessed the Holy Spirit on the Holy Mount on the first Pentecost and as they learned to be led by the Spirit in the wilderness, this was a type of the true Pentecost through whom we learn to follow the Lord wherever He leads.

Finally, on the first Feast of Trumpets (which is commemorated today, by the way), the natural people of God were supposed to cross the Jordan and receive their inheritance in the land of Caanan. But, of the 12 spies that went out, all agreed it was a good land, but only Caleb and Joshua believed God that they could possess it. The other 10 spies along with all of the nation were so focused on their lack of ability (we see ourselves as grasshoppers) and on the size of the giants in the land that they grieved God and He swore that they should not enter His rest and enter into the land of promise. So, He turned them back into the wilderness until that generation died off and only Caleb and Joshua who were of a different spirit eventually entered this natural rest.

My point is that these people and this situation was only a type written down for our learning. The real that was being demonstrated is that no one will receive their true promised land (our resurrected bodies) until we come to the place of not trusting in our abilities or our righteousness and trust that by His grace He will give us our tabernacles not made with hands reserved for us in the Heavenlies. This is the purpose of the Church in the Wilderness of the Lake of Fire so we can come to the end of ourselves and come into our inheritance trusting in God's grace alone.

As I understand the Word, Jesus is the Savior of all men and He will eventually deliver all men from these corruptible bodies and bring us into immortality. The point of the natural parable is that no one will enter in while still in unbelief, but God will bring all to a place of believing in the ages to come.

I hope this makes sense to all.

John

And Happy Rosh Hoshanna. (Feast of Trumpets 9/12/2007)

[Powerpuppy]

Thanks for your reply to my message...

Just to put you in the picture, I'm quite new to universalism and have 13 years of hardline fundamentalism to get rid of...

What concerns me about your answer is that the hebrews writer is talking about the 40 years of unbelief in the wilderness to prevent us from making the same mistake.

As Hewbrews 4 vs 1 goes on to say

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

I know the old testament contains types and shadows, but it doesn't make the people involved in those times any less real.
They were there wandering round the desert proving God all the time.

And we are told from God's own mouth that He has sworn in His wrath that they will not enter His rest...
I find it difficult to believe that it just means they won't enter into the promised land.

Any further thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated

[bobf]

Moses was real and was not allowed by God to enter the promised land.  Does that tell us that he will not enter God's kingdom?

[Kratos]

I think it is a mistake to mix the type with the real. The rest that God was speaking of in the type was entering into a physical promised land. Those who did not believe, did not enter that rest and perished in the wilderness. It is similar to Christians who think we have to meet on Saturdays and have a sedar service very week to remain right with God. They are mixing the type with the true in my opinion.

Now to the real. Jesus is our Sabbath rest and we rest in Him concerning our righteousness. There is a rest that comes to the people of God, but Joshua did not take them into this true rest when he took them into Canaan land. Moses did not enter into the rest in Canaan, but he was with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration so entered the true rest.

Those who perished in the wilderness like those who die a natural death in this age have not entered the full rest or received their inheritance on the land (immortal bodies) YET, but it does not mean that they will not at the resurrection of the dead. The truth is that no one except Jesus has received their full inheritance YET, but we believe and wait with hope for it.

John

[Taffy]

Got to go along with Kratos...

The physical reality showing a SPIRITUAL Truth.....set before us as examples.

Moses was a Type\shadow of the LAW  which was Glorious and  but was never going to enter the ( PHYSICAL) promised land....Christ is our True ( SPIRITUAL )Rest.

We enter the PROMISE via Faith, seems to me the Hebrews were falling from Grace and needed the examples of OLD.
Blessings
Taffy

[Taffy]

Moses was real and was not allowed by God to enter the promised land.  Does that tell us that he will not enter God's kingdom?

Indeed it doesnt Bob...as was JB who also was a forerunner of the OLD Covenant PAVING the WAY for the REALITY  which is Christ.
Blessings
Taffy

[pneuma]

I really don't see the problem here, so what if they died in the wilderness because of unbelief. Does their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Ro.3:3

God sent His son to save the world and so the world must then be saved.

The scriptures in question have nothing to do with mans salvation or reconciliation after the fashion you are looking at them.

They are talking about entering into Gods rest TODAY as apposed to later.

So if one is walking in unbelief they cannot enter into Gods rest well it is called TODAY.

This does not mean that after judgment they cannot enter in for judgment is always corrective in nature and once judged/corrected because of unbelief what do you suppose happens? I to have walked in unbelief but once God judged/corrected me I now believe.

So He took my unbelief and caused me to believe. Lord help my unbelief was a fathers cry to Jesus, Jesus never said forget it you unbeliever, no Jesus healed his son. I doubt very much after his son was healed that the father of the boy still did not believe.

After all we were all at one time children of WRATH, born under the law.

The problem as I see it is people are mistaken about what Gods wrath is and does.

Here is a scripture that tells us something about that.

Romans 4:15-16
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The wrath of God is contained within the law. Those under wrath are under the law.

For what purpose?

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Answer: that ALL the seed might be saved, both those under the law/wrath of God and those of faith, those who enter in by the strait gate and those who enter in by the broad.

[Taffy]

After all we were all at one time children of WRATH, born under the law.

Indeed Pnuema. :thumbsup:

Blessings
Taffy

[Powerpuppy]

I can see what you mean...

I'm still learning lol...

Thanks you guys, it almost feels like I'm learning a completely new faith.

Blessings

Paul.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Ya'll... :hithere: and  :welcome: to you POWERPUPPY!  :reachout:   

My  :2c: ...

FEW shall enter into that REST in this lifetime... (which lifetime is in the REALM of TIME leading up to the LAST DAY)

JESUS CHRIST is the SPIRITUAL FULFILLMENT of the SABBATH [rest]...

When one enters IN CHRIST... he/she enters into REST... for that one CEASES to WORK of him/herself... and JESUS CHRIST now WORKS in him/her...

(Heb 4:10)  For he that IS ENTERED into that REST, he also hath CEASED from HIS OWN WORKS, as GOD did from His...

OUR WORKS are but FILTHY RAGS (iniquity)... the ONLY WORK which shall survive THIS [lake of]  FIRE... is that which is DONE (by CHRIST, through a believer) in the Name of CHRIST, and which is originated IN the believer BY CHRIST...

Many claim to do the WORK of JESUS... but, THEN ...take credit for it themselves... (i.e. leading souls to Christ, casting out demons, brought God into the lives of others, by helping them, visiting them, etc)

These are so noted:

(Matt 7:21-23)  NOT EVERY ONE that saith LORD, LORD, shall ENTER into the Kingdom of Heaven [CHRIST]; but he that DOETH the WILL of My Father which is in Heaven... MANY will SAY to Me in that day:  LORD, LORD, have ...WE... not prophesied [preached] in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy Name DONE many wonderful WORKS? ...And then will I profess unto THEM, ...I... never KNEW YOU: depart from Me, YE who work iniquity...

Why did JESUS say He never KNEW them?  It was because THEY were WORKING... and HAD NOT ENTERED into His REST, which means their WORK would CEASE... and JESUS' Work IN THEM would BEGIN...

In this verse, it should be easy to see these "Christians" taking CREDIT for the WORKS!

If THEY are taking the credit (such as leading souls to Christ, baptizing, etc), then CHRIST is NOT getting the GLORY, ...they are...

If THEY are DOING the WORKS, ...then CHRIST is NOT...

And if CHRIST is NOT... then THEY have NOT ENTERED into HIS REST...

This does not mean they shall NOT "ever" enter... it means that in that day (the LAST DAY), their WORKS shall be named INIQUITY for THEY did the WORKS, not CHRIST... and THE FIRST (the many) shall be LAST,  :omg: ...and the LAST (the few) shall be FIRST...  :first:

Shalom...       :angelharp:

In JESUS

[Taffy]

Hi WillieH :icon_flower:

Very simply Expounded  :thumbsup:

Blessings
Taffy

[BenJasher]

I have to go along with Pneuma on this one.
I think he was spot on.

But I would add this to what he said:

All of the curses, and warnings of curses that were uttered as the Children of Israel wandered through the desert for 40 years had to do with temporal things in this life.

"Those who heeded not the words of the Angel died without mercy..."

It does not say they went to hell to burn forever. They died. Their bodies deteriorated to nothing in the sun-bleached sands of the desert. That is all it said about them, and this statement defined the limits of the curse of not heeding the words of the Angel and of not entering into that rest.

My question to powerpuppy's uncle would be:

"What does entering into that rest entail?"

Does it mean going to Heaven? No, it doesn't. To say it does goes against the context of all that is being done. All of the promises and blessings spoken of them are of temporal things that they could enjoy in this life.

Entering into that rest could very well just as easily have been to enter into the Promised Land and take part in setting up a nation of their own in the land given to their forefather by way of an unconditional covenant. As a matter of fact, I think that is precisely right. But I could be wrong. No matter. The fact remains that the promises and blessings, as well as the curses and judgments were of a temporal nature.

I defy you to find any curse or blessing that does not clearly have a temporal application.

[dboutwell]

Powerpuppy,

When you are brought up with the eternal torment mentality it takes a good while to move from everything meaning heaven or hell... :sigh:  But, oh what a relief it is when it happens!!

Then, we really can enter into the rest that's made possible for us...that abundant life, that PEACE that passes all understanding.... The rest that comes from knowing that we are righteous by nothing but the blood of Jesus. We don't have to worry "have I read my Bible today?" or did I pray right? Or, blah, blah, blah.....

What we are free to do is love our neighbor as our self whether or not we have done any of the things we have thought we were supposed to do to please God. Christ pleased God. We are free period. To even halfway understand that makes us want to find out all we can about the One who freed us, doesn't it?  It makes us want to know what He is concerned about...what He likes...  Knowing who we are in Christ takes the worry out of the relationship.

We are just free..period. Free not to worry, free not to throw that tantrum that we used to throw every time it was suggested to us by our flesh. Free not to have to feel like we have to get  one up on someone. Free just to be ourselves. Free not to harden our hearts when we hear God's voice. Free to enter into that rest in this life and maybe even get to show some other folks how to enter it. Life is good.

Thank you Lord  :HeartThrob:

Debbie