This person sent me (Gary Amirault) this email which questions. Perhaps the board participants would like to respond. I invited her to come here to participate:
Hi, I have read your article in great detail and taken some time to study it. I found it very interesting initially and it has certainly opened my heart to there being more and more possibilities to God than what I currently know. Of-course one thing I have always known and that is that there is always more to know about Him.
There are some points that I'd like to contribute for your thinking, although I'm sure you've probably heard from many christians who've argued your points and enjoyed a theological debate. I however, am not into theological debates, but am into the gospel. My concern is not whether or not there is a hell as a place of eternal torment but that the gospel in all its fulness is preached. It is the gospel that reveals the heart and character of God and so there are some points I'd like to make to offer my correction to the perception you have 'thrown out there' about the character of God in light of the power of the gospel.
It seems to me that this place called hell is not a permanent place, as you have pointed out the scriptures referring to Jesus going into hell or hades during the 3 days before He rose from the grave. Hell or hades is eventually destroyed according to Revelations.
Have you considered Revelations 20, veryse 10 - 15? -
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever (I don't know what the Greek/hebrew is here for the words forever and ever). Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
1.
Under your heading "Hell Contradicts The Work of the Messiah" - you say Hell was never a place that the Jews were hoping to be saved from, since they didn't even believe in it - I feel I need to make clear that it is irrelevant what anybody hopes to be saved from and whether or not they believe, as it is only God who knows what we NEED saving from.
2.
You make many references using scripture, to everybody bowing down and calling Him Lord, and you ask how this can be if hell is real. My interpretation is that 'in the end' everything will be made known to all creation. People alive at the time, as well as those who are awaiting judgement after having died the first death, will all know that the Lord is Lord. Every knee and every tongue, just as now every demonic spirit, bows before the Lord, and knows that He is God. So we all will know, all will be faced with the undeniable truth. This doesn't meant to me, that everybody is saved.
3.
You make many references using scripture, to questioning whether or not Jesus has saved the world if in fact there is this place hell? I would like to make the statement that it is through FAITH that Jesus is the son of God that we are saved, the cross and Jesus provided the means for us to be saved. This is the power and saving work of the cross, this is the gospel.
4.
Many times you comment on a "traditional understanding that most of those He came to save will never experience His salvation", and that "more people will end up in hell than in heaven" - I don't see any relevance of 'traditional understanding' because this is mankind, and not the word or mind of God. Traditional understanding is not gospel, infalliable truth.
5. You ask "'if the devil is the one who decives people into going there is the devil the ultimate winner of our souls?" - the devil was the ultimate winner of our souls which is why God predestined (not a plan B or C) but already had the 'cross' in His plan. Ours is not to know and understand the mind of God with our mortal minds. His ways are not our ways, His thoughts higher than ours.
6. You say "if hell is eternal, how can the increase of Christ's government and of peace have no end?" - I think the above Revelations reference establishes that hell is finally destroyed in the lake of burning sulfur, which seems to be eternal, and in which those whose names are not in the book of life are also thrown into. If this lake of burning sulfur is eternal, this does not equate to Christ's government coming to an end! This would all be according to Christ's government! Not in opposition to it!
7. You quote 2 Samuel 14:14 about God not taking away life. Then you quote 1Samuel 2:6 which states that THe Lord killeth. - He devises ways so that a banished person may not remain etranged from him, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up - This IS the power and purpose of the gospel! This is what God achieved through Christ on the cross. We are not abandoned to death, to the grave, we do not have to be estranged from Him because He has given us the way out which is through belief in the Son of God, through the cross and resurrection of Christ.
8. You quote Hosea 13:11-14 - God will ransom them from the power of the grave, redeem them from death, God will be the destruction of the grave - this is right! This is again what God has done through Jesus.
9. You quote 1 Corinthians 15:29 - this chapter is about the resurrection of the dead, of those who belong to Christ (verse 23). As clearly some were arguing against there being a resurrection of the dead. We know that scripture clearly shows us, and you seem to agree by your references, that all will be resurrected, believers and non-believers, to stand before God for judgement. I don't understand the relevance of this scripture in your article to hell, sorry.
10. Under your heading "Hell does not reflect the heart of God" you say that to punish people endlessly for crimes committed in a short human lifespan defies all logic and justice ... - It is not because of crimes that one does not have their name recorded in the book of life. If that were the case, there would be no names in the book at all. It is because of our crimes, our sin, that Jesus came and died for us so we would be redeemed from the power of Death. It is because of denial of CHrist as the son of God that one's name is not written in the book of life.
11. You quote Rev 4:11 - and ask if hel is real and all things were made for God's please is it conceivable that God would derive pleasure from seeing those He created endlessly tortured? - does this mean he takes pleasure in satan? does it mean that satan can't real then? Does he take pleasure in the sin He sees every day all over the planet?
12. You say if hell is real, if God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them? Is He a changeable being? -- I see no scriptures declaring that God loves His enemies. I see scriptures telling how God will destroy the wicked. How God hates evil. How God will destroy the detestable. I see how Jesus tells us to love our enemies, and Jesus came to show us the heart of the Father, yes, but I see God knows the hearts of all man and we do not. Luke 6:35,36 - God is merciful to the wicked (salvation is available to all!) - We do not have the right to judge and condemn our enemies, we are called to love as a means of us understanding the fatherheart to all mankind in that He sent his son to die for us so that we could be reconciled to Him. But I don't see anywhere in the scriptures that God loves His enemies. I don't see Him as a changeable being but the same yesterday, today and forever.
13. You ask if the traditional teaching of hell is real, how can mercy triumph over judgement? - I say because of the power of the cross. The Cross is the triumph! Whoever BELIEVES in Him is saved. (John 3:16, Joel 2:32)
My question is :
If there is no hell, no finalisation, what are we saved from? If there's no penalty in such an absolute extreme measure as hell as a place of eternal separation from God, why has God gone to all the trouble He has in sending Jesus, Jesus descending into Hades to give them another chance, saving us from the power of death, etc, etc, etc... If there's nothing so dreadful to be saved from, what are we saved from?
If I may put my thoughts forward, for the sake of the gospel, it seems in your article that there is an effort to fit the awesomeness of God into the understanding of mankind. As though there are these awful bits in our faith or 'traditional teaching' that we don't like and can't compute with the image of a loving God and therefore they can't be true.
I would like to encourage you in your exploration of the full scripture, the full gospel, the fullness of God and who He is as the Almighty God and Creator, and not one that can be reduced to human understanding.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and having the availability to email you from your website. My heart's desire is not to argue or condemn or lift myself up in anyway, only to see the fulness of God revealed, and I believe that this happens when we understand the fulness of the pure gospel, Christ crucified and resurrected for the way of reconciliation to God the Father.
God bless you.
why do people want to see people go to hell so badly?i think it might give a glimpse into our hearts.
QuoteMy question is :
If there is no hell, no finalisation, what are we saved from? If there's no penalty in such an absolute extreme measure as hell as a place of eternal separation from God, why has God gone to all the trouble He has in sending Jesus, Jesus descending into Hades to give them another chance, saving us from the power of death, etc, etc, etc... If there's nothing so dreadful to be saved from, what are we saved from?
Maybe Gods method is not so different from the human method.
Lots of people don't steal because they think its immoral (sin). Another group doesn't steal because they fear jail (hell). Some will steal anyway and get caught and sent to prison (hell) After a certain time they have paid for their theft (sin) and are free again (go to heaven)
God known's we are in our hart all thiefs (sinners) and is willing to keep you out of prison (hell) if you put your trust in Jesus.
Why should God be limited to only 1 choice? Heaven or Hell.
That would like a human judge that only is allowed to give you no punishment or the electric chair.
:newb: warning :newb:
:goodpost: I LIKE your reasoning there, WW!!
Good one! :bigGrin: I've often used that ol' "until he pay the uttermost farthing" thingy myself in trying to explain to others how I believe that God deals with those that do not try to reconcile with their accuser on the way to the courthouse!! :)
Mr. Amirault--
Formulating a response to the young ladies email without starting a book seems doubtful, to me. I've included just 2 quick comments for her:
John 3:16
"For God so LOVED THE WORLD that He gave his only begotton Son...."
That "the book of revelations" as she calls it, is actually The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ-- which explains why she is a bit confused in the first place about these events. I will pray for her understanding as the Holy Spirit leads. She sounds like she wants to defend what is precious to her....we've all been there! I hope that she will soon see just how precious the truth of UR/US is for herself AND the entire WORLD!
Just my thoughts!
Joyce :)
Quote
1.
Under your heading "Hell Contradicts The Work of the Messiah" - you say Hell was never a place that the Jews were hoping to be saved from, since they didn't even believe in it - I feel I need to make clear that it is irrelevant what anybody hopes to be saved from and whether or not they believe, as it is only God who knows what we NEED saving from.
Well, there is some truth in that since what we "want" to be saved from is not necessarily what we will be saved from. God allows many things in our lives that we would rather not go through but they happened nevertheless.
Ultimately what we are saved from is not that big of a secret, it is Gods timing that determines when we will be saved from anything.
Are we saved from poor health? Christians love to talk about Gods healing power but is there a difference between an earthly blessing concerning health and salvation concerning health? Yes, the most healthy person on the planet is still dying. So, if everyone dies, then one thing we must be saved from is death. We are saved from poor health when we are reconciled back into God, not when we get cured of some disease on earth. Can we rightly say that one thing at least we are saved from is death? Yes indeed.
Quote
2.
You make many references using scripture, to everybody bowing down and calling Him Lord, and you ask how this can be if hell is real. My interpretation is that 'in the end' everything will be made known to all creation. People alive at the time, as well as those who are awaiting judgement after having died the first death, will all know that the Lord is Lord. Every knee and every tongue, just as now every demonic spirit, bows before the Lord, and knows that He is God. So we all will know, all will be faced with the undeniable truth. This doesn't meant to me, that everybody is saved.
It isn't the only verse that can say all men are being saved, but it is a part of it. There are all kinds of biases that keep someone from seeing the truth in this passage and just that could fill many pages.
Most of the bias is that if all of creation must bow at the name of Jesus then some are being forced into submission. So that is one theological work around some have for saying that "every" is not "all" based on a context that you will not find. The problem is that the idea that God must force someone to bow willingly in order for everyone to do this is not based upon scripture. It is based upon the false assumption that man is the free moral agent and determiner of his or her own destiny. You will not find this plainly written in scripture. It is mans context that tells us that there is reasoning outside of scripture that explains verses. The freedom to determine our own destiny is an ideology of the world.
For you to say that someone faced with undeniable truth and they would not be changed and willingly submit to Christ comes from the "Spirit filled Christian bias" Let me explain.
Christians have been falsely led to believe that they are responsible for leading people to Christ and winning souls, so therefore, if they encounter some who is not "saved" then they can proceed to witness under the impression that the words flowing from their mouth are spirit filled truth and if the person they are speaking to rejects what they say, then that person has not rejected them, but have rejected Christ.
First John 6:44 tells us who and only who draws people to Christ. However, it "CAN" be done through the foolishness fo preaching (1 Cor. 1:20-21).
But, it is not the belief that someone is speaking words of christ that causes anything. So indeed if someone rejects a Christians words, they CAN indeed be rejecting what they see in the human they encounter. Some preacher on a street corner yelling and shouting, may indeed be used to draw men unto Christ. But the arrogance of the street preacher will be known as he thinks that he has the power of the Lord and all that reject him are not rejecting some raving fool on a street corner, oh no that couldn't be!!!!. :laughing7:
So indeed if every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, then there is evidence in this that all men are saved because of John 6:44.
The issue is when someone will be faced with the power of Gods undeniable truth to cause them to learn righteousness, not just come to a realization that it is too late, which is not in scripture.
There is nothing in scripture to indicate that this "Drawing" in John 6:44 is for the purpose of shoving a poor decision in someones face before sending them to their eternal doom.
I will stop here because none of what you address can be taken lightly and I do not want to make my message too long. If you accept Garys invitation to come join us then you can respond and we can go into this further.
QuoteMy question is :
If there is no hell, no finalisation, what are we saved from? If there's no penalty in such an absolute extreme measure as hell as a place of eternal separation from God, why has God gone to all the trouble He has in sending Jesus, Jesus descending into Hades to give them another chance, saving us from the power of death, etc, etc, etc... If there's nothing so dreadful to be saved from, what are we saved from?
Hello,
I understand these questions. They are completely good questions.
Have you ever done a drivers test? You will know that you need to practice and practice and practice in order to pass. Though if you have nobody to practice with, you have to pay big money in order to practice, and you can still fail the test. Let us say you have a grandfather who loves you very much, that he let's you drive him everywhere despite you being completely horrible driver and he teaches you properly how to drive until he feels you are ready to take your test. Your grandfather saved you lots of money, and failure.
You don't need to be saved something dreadful to have salvation. That is not to say, that we are not saved from something dreadful. I just need to make you aware that the presupposition of salvation is only based on salvation from dread is a faulty one.
I believe that we are saved from something dreadful....
Experiencing separation from God is a dreadful thing.....I know because I've experienced it. I also know that when you go through this separation.....it feels as though there is no hope, and that you will be in that place of separation forever.
But what is the Truth? Does God ever give up on any of us??
Does God really love the whole world......did He really die for the Whole World?? Is God's love strong enough to save All of us??
The scriptures say that Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
The scriptures also say that love rejoices with the truth.....It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Sounds like God will never give up on us.....He is relentless, and there is no escaping Him! :HeartThrob:
Psalm 139
7 Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9 If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,"
12 even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.
13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
I think SOtW may be on to a deeper meaning in scripture I have come to believe.
In human terms religion has made it seem as if Humanity got itself into this mess and God has came along to offer a way out. But as I have come to see the universalist position I have also found that indeed there is nothing to be saved from in the sense that God has NEVER intended that any one of us stay lost in the first place.
Salvation is a relative term that we understand in light of how things appear to us. We do not know all the answers so we have hope, we have hope the scriptures are true, we see the utter futility in having some manner within ourselves to operate beyond the grave.
Sure there are all kinds of ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and religions that attempt to appease that wonder we have. "what happens after death?" What cannot be done is obtaining definitive proof that any one belief is correct. The bible is not proof of anything other than it can be proven that it is a compilation of writings that depict a concept. We can have confidence and believe it, in hope, but not demonstratable truth.
However, what I see in scripture is that we are on a journey, in the reality of scripture, we have nothing to fear, and God has a process in order to bring about the ultimate end of that journey. Since our destiny with Christ is not up to us in the sense that our own power can determine anything, then indeed, our journey is protected from the permanancy of all the things we fear.
We only think that there is something to be saved from, in reality, God had it all planned out from the very beginning.
Do we experience that which we believe we are being saved from? Possibly, but, if there was never any intention for God to leave us permanently in any situation, then are we actually being saved, or on the ultimate journey?
QuoteWe only think that there is something to be saved from, in reality, God had it all planned out from the very beginning.
I like that Paul! :thumbsup:
There is a song called
All These Things That I've Done, and it has these lyrics that I really enjoy, and I think apply here...
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done
All these things that I've done
If you can hold on
If you can hold on For me the hardest part sometimes is holding on......
It is very true SG that it can be hard to hold on, to remain in a state of faith that is measured in hope and confidence.
But, do you find it interesting that those moments when there are is, there is a reality that there is a hand in the midst that is beyond us, beyond just our will making a choice to do something?
Quote from: onlytruth on July 23, 2008, 08:05:51 PM
why do people want to see people go to hell so badly?i think it might give a glimpse into our hearts.
More like our minds:
delusion.
Quote from: Paul on July 25, 2008, 05:44:19 AM
Quote from: onlytruth on July 23, 2008, 08:05:51 PM
why do people want to see people go to hell so badly?i think it might give a glimpse into our hearts.
More like our minds: delusion.
I don't mean partial knowledge, but knowledge that in itself is partial is being subsumed into the mind of Christ which we are putting on. Omniscience is beyond knowledge. "Love is never lapsing...knowledge, it will be discarded. For out of an installment are we knowing..."(1 Cor 13:8-9) The inner life to all living is God. All awareness in lifeforms is through God. He is The Knower Who Knows in All Knowing. For us to call no human "teacher" is to recognize "in His light we see light." It is more than that He sees in all sight. The imparting of knowledge and the capacity to experience enlightenment is Divine being occurring. That a next part of knowledge is followed by a subsequent fuller awareness is Him Who is the Day dawning. "If any
one is presuming to know any
thing, he knew not as yet accord
ing as
he must know. Now if any
one is loving God, this
one is known by Him..." (1 Cor 8:3-4)
This relates to what salvation is. Yah-shua, meaning, "Yah (God in the widest sense of personality and causation, ie., WILL) is salvation" is Jesus name. It is the Divine nature. The overcomers have this name, this identity so throughout them it is written upon their foreheads. The ancient Greek believers spoke of THEOSIS, which means, "transformed into God." The original intent is still in process. God would make a many-membered entity which is His Image and Likeness. We are taking on the form and similitude of God. We are His manifestation, His flesh and bones in the earth. God's ambassadors are in travail until Christ is fully formed in His eclessia. Their mission is to present EVERY man perfect, finished in Christ.
Hi there, I am the lady who sent the initial comments to Gary. This is new to me, doing this posting stuff. Thanks everybody for your input. I really don't enjoy theological debates, feel it is a waste of time between believers, you'll see my reason for writing to Gary in my letter to him...my conviction about the full gospel being preached. I am replying here because I am confident that we all seek to walk in the truth and I see here we have many varying views, beliefs, thoughts and opinions, convictions and understanding. This is totally fine, hey. I do however, want to make it clear that I have no 'fondness' for a reality of a place called hell, whatever its content. Whether there is a place of eternal torment, a place of death as a ceasing to exist, whatever it could possibly be, it is not something I 'want'. My desire is that the full gospel is spread, therefore that the nature of God is revealed to all mankind through the revelation of the Holy Spirit, through faith and God's grace He has given. It is up to the Holy Spirit to bring revelation, and He does use us from time to time as the Father has called us to go out and preach to all nations. In fact he commands us to do this. He will do the rest.
I don't believe for one minute that we can know the full mind of God, have complete understanding, and I do hope as believers that we won't spend our time swallowing camels but choking on gnats. Spreading the good news of Christ, crucified and resurrected, the power of the cross, the Father heart of God, .... these are things that I wish to focus on. My concern over the original article concerning hell was that focus appeared to have been drawn away from the fact that God knows more than we do, that it is not up to us to understand everything and to call those things which we don't understand as not true or not possible or whatever. Let's preach the gospel and let God sort out what happens after life here on earth. Our message is about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The rest is in His hands. He knows what we need to be saved from, He does the work, He completes, He convicts, He reveals, He loves, He forgives, He is merciful, He is everything. He does however, make it very clear that 'whoever believes in Him shall be saved'. I do sense some need for personal response in this. I don't know how to interpret this in any other way, perhaps someone has some other ideas on this. Perhaps there is other meaning to the word 'believe' in the Greek/Hebrew or something. Regardless, let's just not try to intellectualise the God of the universe and limit Him to our minds. The gospel is simple, Jesus Himself came to make the simple wise, and the wise foolish. I'm not sure how to finish this up now, but anyway, I hope and pray we can all be effective for Christ while we're here. :icon_flower:
Hi DJ,
So you don't like theological debates; but you are spreading the Gospel. I'm sure (some) people have questions about the Gospel you preach. Questions have a good possibility to turn into a debate.
You also wrote you have no 'fondness' for hell in what form or shape it may exist; but you want to spread the word about the nature of God.
IMO the way God deals with sinners says a lot about his nature; so understanding of hell seems important to me.
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
So I agree who don't/can't know everything about God. Now I speak as a starting believer (possible not even that...) For me it is very important to understand such things. For me not knowing 'the main line' works as a blockade. I only can start to believe if all walls are gone. I already managed to tear down some walls that where about the conflict between science and the Bible (with wasn't there in those cases)
Eternal hell also is such a wall. For me it was in conflict with the message of love. So I started reading articles like found on this site an sites with the ceasing to exist view. Now I'm still stuck between the two views that are both have lots of Scripture to back it up.
It may seem I just rattle about myself instead of replying to your message. That's only partly true. I'm trying to explain that listening to the Gospel isn't enough for all to come into believe. There is also a verse somewhere in the Bible that we should study the word. Perhaps I have the wrong definition of (Biblical) study; but study isn't memorizing the whole Bible. It's learning how to use knowledge in places outside the classroom.
Jesus didn't came as a preacher but as a teacher. Everyone with a good clear voice can be a preacher. But to be a teacher is different. (But surely preachers also can be teachers)
Jesus had debates with people that where very knowledgeable about the scripture. They memorized it all. The where convinced they interpreted it correctly.
If Jesus what 'just' a preacher He would have sat down with them and had a competition of speaking verses.
But He came not to do that but to explain the scripture as a teacher.
So to wrap this up; debating the Gospel never is a waste of time. Being challenged in your believe:
a] Strengthens it.
b] Weeds out the wrong bits.
c] Gives you better answers for the many questions people will ask. You know: "why does Africa starve to death" "Hitler is gonna be best friends with Jews in Heaven"
d] Possible makes you discover previously hidden gems.
Please don't see the above as an attack. Just because I know (not believe) your scriptural knowledge is much deeper than mine.
More shallow isn't even possible for God Himself :hihat:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 25, 2008, 12:17:57 AM
It is very true SG that it can be hard to hold on, to remain in a state of faith that is measured in hope and confidence.
But, do you find it interesting that those moments when there are is, there is a reality that there is a hand in the midst that is beyond us, beyond just our will making a choice to do something?
Hi Paul H......I would say Yes.......and it is comforting to me to know that. Those moments very much feel like we have a loving parent watching over us.......and guiding us towards the right direction.
.
Hi DJ....welcome to the Tent
I'd like to address point #2.
2.
You make many references using scripture, to everybody bowing down and calling Him Lord, and you ask how this can be if hell is real. My interpretation is that 'in the end' everything will be made known to all creation. People alive at the time, as well as those who are awaiting judgement after having died the first death, will all know that the Lord is Lord. Every knee and every tongue, just as now every demonic spirit, bows before the Lord, and knows that He is God. So we all will know, all will be faced with the undeniable truth. This doesn't meant to me, that everybody is saved.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EVERYBODY - WILL BECOME SAVED - CONFESS THAT 'JESUS IS LORD'
http://jesusthelightoftheworld.yuku.com/topic/1990
Peace, AJ
.
QuoteHe does however, make it very clear that 'whoever believes in Him shall be saved'. I do sense some need for personal response in this. I don't know how to interpret this in any other way, perhaps someone has some other ideas on this.
Hey DJ.....I can relate so much to your posts. I remember when I first read about God's plan of ultimate reconciliation.....I had so many questions...
IMHO God does make it clear.....we absolutely do have to believe in order to be saved, and at some point in the grand scheme of things......I see All believing, but I'd also like to say that the scriptures make it very clear that those that Now believe are blessed.
I also think that God has left us enough evidence in scripture and nature to see that His plan is for His Light to fill the entire world......just like the rising Sun!! :cloud9:
I'm sure you believe that Jesus does love each and every person, or else you would never have been drawn to look into this idea of Jesus saving All. I'm also sure you believe that He loved us enough to die for us, and that He carried the sins of the whole World, to a hill called Golgotha where he himself bore the wrath of God. I feel like you probably already know this, but my question for you is -- Doesn't this mean that there is something worth redeeming in each and every person?
Do you believe that God will allow that which is precious to be lost forever?
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 25, 2008, 12:00:12 AM
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done
All these things that I've done
If you can hold on
If you can hold on
For me the hardest part sometimes is holding on......
I hear you on this one, stainedglass....
I was thinking about what you wrote....
it IS hard. In fact sometimes, we
can't hold on....
I know that you understand this...
when we can't hold on...
it is then we discover, that He is holding on to us! You know?
Peace and Joy!
Joyce :)
Quote from: joyful1 on July 25, 2008, 08:41:27 PM
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 25, 2008, 12:00:12 AM
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done
All these things that I've done
If you can hold on
If you can hold on
For me the hardest part sometimes is holding on......
I hear you on this one, stainedglass....
I was thinking about what you wrote....
it IS hard. In fact sometimes, we can't hold on....
I know that you understand this...
when we can't hold on...
it is then we discover, that He is holding on to us! You know?
Peace and Joy!
Joyce :)
Yes...I do know, but sometimes I forget. It's nice to be reminded though.....thanks Joyce! :cloud9: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 25, 2008, 08:33:33 PM
QuoteHe does however, make it very clear that 'whoever believes in Him shall be saved'. I do sense some need for personal response in this. I don't know how to interpret this in any other way, perhaps someone has some other ideas on this.
Hey DJ.....I can relate so much to your posts. I remember when I first read about God's plan of ultimate reconciliation.....I had so many questions...
IMHO God does make it clear.....we absolutely do have to believe in order to be saved, and at some point in the grand scheme of things......I see All believing, but I'd also like to say that the scriptures make it very clear that those that Now believe are blessed.
I also think that God has left us enough evidence in scripture and nature to see that His plan is for His Light to fill the entire world......just like the rising Sun!! :cloud9:
I'm sure you believe that Jesus does love each and every person, or else you would never have been drawn to look into this idea of Jesus saving All. I'm also sure you believe that He loved us enough to die for us, and that He carried the sins of the whole World, to a hill called Golgotha where he himself bore the wrath of God. I feel like you probably already know this, but my question for you is -- Doesn't this mean that there is something worth redeeming in each and every person?
Do you believe that God will allow that which is precious to be lost forever?
Doesn't this mean that there is something worth redeeming in each and every person?
Do you believe that God will allow that which is precious to be lost forever?
Hi everyone, - I'm pretty sure this is going to stir up some comments, I'm struggling with whether or not this is right for me to continue in this posting deal, but my heart cannot rest until I answer what I believe is of vital importance to the Body of Christ, that we do not waver from the gospel that was told to us through scripture.
I understand the reason Christ died and rose again, is for ALL mankind. So ALL can be redeemed, salvation is for ALL, without the cross, this was not possible. Hence Christ going to the grave and ministering to those in Hades/Hell/waiting place, whatever. I believe through the presence of the cross that it is not God's desire THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH. What does perish mean then? "For God so loved the world (ALL) that He sent His only begotten son so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in Him SHALL NOT PERISH but have everlasting life".
If all are saved simply on the precept of ONE DAY every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord, well fantastic! Amen! Hallelujah!!! Woo hoo!!!! I rejoice! None will be lost! All who I know and love will be in eternal glory! Sincerely!
But why is Christ's commission to all who are now believers, to go into all the world and preach the gospel? If it doesn't matter whether people believe now or not, why were these His last words to us before He ascended to the father? Why did He send Paul to the gentiles? Why did it matter that all were made equal by receiving power of the Holy Spirit when they believed in Jesus as the Son of God? What difference does any of that make if all are saved anyway?
Folks, I'm concerned there is a gospel other than that preached by Jesus and Paul, going out. Oh, it's a nice gospel for sure. It's not scary at all, it has no bad bits in it, only good bits about a loving God who just wouldn't let any of His precious ones perish. It's a preferable gospel, no doubt.
But just because Paul and the disciples didn't talk about hell, just because Jesus only talked about it ocassionally and just because it's not a clear point in the gospel what hell actually is and what it's about, but that preaching Christ and Christ crucified is the the message we are commissioned to take to the world, doesn't that tell us that the focus and importance is on spreading the gospel as Christ and Paul preached? Not delving into the areas that are uncertain and not qualified specifically by Christ? Jesus, Paul and the disciples also don't talk about the beast and the dragon so much do they? They don't talk about alot of things that we read in Revelations, (The Revelation of Jesus Christ as someone said), do you think this may be because these things were secondary to the main message which is to bring the gospel of salvation to everybody so everybody who BELIEVES will not perish but have everlasting life?
If we preach that all are saved regardless of whether we believe and have faith now, what have we done with the gospel? Shouldn't our hearts be set on preaching Christ, and seeing the Holy Spirit come with power to confirm and testify to the written and rhema word of God? The Holy Spirit bring conviction and understanding to all who believe?
Yes, we are given gifts of teaching and this is why we must know the GOSPEL, and this is why the power of our testimony is so vital to spreading the good news. What is your testimony? What is my testimony? What do I know about the love of God? Without concerning myself with what context hell or hades may be, whether or not there is a final death, whether or not all are saved regardless of any of my understanding of the gospel, I know that God had saved me from a life of self, He has healed me, I know He has walked me through the darkest places and set my feet high upon a rock, I know He has romanced and nurtured me, loved me endlessly, I know the life I had without Him and the life I have with Him and this is my testimony. People need to know about Jesus now, they need to hear about Him now, today, this year, in our lifetime, because the time will come when they will no longer hear, the Holy Spirit will leave the earth and whatever you all think that means I don't know, but I know we need to be about our Father's business NOW. Let's preach how God has saved us in our own lives now, let's preach about the gospel, Christ and Christ crucified and how that has brought us into freedom in who we are in Christ, that we no longer conform and answer to the world but are citizens of another kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, that the power of death IS broken over our lives, that we are filled with hope and joy because of Christ. Let others see our lives, our love for another and therefore believe in Christ as the Son of God. Let the Holy Spirit minister His truth, through our love and unity with oneanother as we serve Christ.
I hear someone say how important it is to a new believer to understand about hell, I can understand that too. But let me tell you about Christ. Let me tell you about what He did on the cross, let me tell you about God's love to sacrifice His son and break the power of death for you! Let me tell you about how He loves and adores you and how His ways and precepts are compassionate, loving, as a Father to a son. Let me tell you about how He has a plan for your life to serve his kingdom that will fill your life and heart with joy and purpose and strength and how you will never be thirsty again, let me tell you how surrendering your life to Jesus will bring you life! Let me tell you about Jesus. Let the power of the HOly Spirit reside inside you, the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead. Let me come alongside you and encourage you in your faith and build you up in your identity as a child of the living God, the Almighty, Ancient of Days. Then, you will not be concerned with whether hell exists and what it is in its exact form, you will be concerned with your relationship with CHrist, you will be concerned with loving and obeying Him in all things. You'll be filled with rest and peace in Christ, not striving in works, but resting in the grace He has given to live and breathe in Christ.
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 25, 2008, 08:33:33 PM
Quote
Hey DJ.....I can relate so much to your posts. I remember when I first read about God's plan of ultimate reconciliation.....I had so many questions...
hi Stained Glass,
Can I ask where you actually first read about 'God's plan of ultimate reconciliation'? Was it in the bible?
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." (Mk 16:15) This is definitely what Jesus commanded us who are under His discipline. Now we know God knows the end from the beginning. He knows ahead of time who will follow Him and who will betray Him. So, if it ends with this life, so if we haven't believed here our fate is sealed by death and He knows who is without any more hope before the world existed, yet he commands us to tell them "good news," then He's made liars out of us. Unless it really is good news to every creature, not just a potential for good that God knows is a lie for all those who're going to burn, then we have to believe in Jesus being Savior of the world in actuality, not just in (false) name because of a never realized potentiality.
"Preach the good news to EVERY creature" when the truth for so many is very, very incalculably bad? . . . unless there's another later installment, unless there's something ultimately good, Jesus is making us liars if we obey this command! I hope you can understand that with clarity.
Much of what some of us are engaged in is delivering people from the flood of lies from the present apostasy. Yet, the discussion of this matter of Universal Restoration is often not what I'm led to deal with people I encounter day to day in the world. But, it is part of our foundation, the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ according to Hebrews 5:12-6:3 in what KJV calls "eternal judgment" that actually means something more like "setting things right according to their appropriate time period." What this is about, along with resurrection (the practical goal of this race to be finished in Christ,) is almost entirely missing from much of the teaching of the modern religious media display and it's associate systems. In 1 Corinthians 15 the specific delineation of THE GOSPEL is all about the Scriptural death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, what God did in Christ. To understand it's application is the mystery. His story becomes your biography, uniquely worked out in your own life. It is God and man made one like a man and wife.
This "wife" I noticed to be neglected in this discussion so far. We're to be so connected to a local body of believers they're like our own hands or feet, actual members of our own body for importance and function of our life. What Paul did wasn't like modern evangelizing. He didn't just go out and make individual converts to Jesus. We are now so inundated with the apostate Church, Babylon if you can endure hearing it, that it's very difficult to communicate the seriousness of this truth. Paul, a wise master builder, raised up a many membered body for Christ to express through. The intent is all that Jesus is and does is in each one to be developed to maturity. So they couldn't depend on him, Paul quickly left them to enjoy a Divine free-for-all without anybody but the Holy Spirit to be in charge. Today, people can speak like in the initial post on this thread and never miss THE CHURCH. That's because everywhere we go it is not allowed to function. We have professionals to do that.
I have friends I've sought for years to communicate this to and they just don't seem to hear it. They go to such a wonderful church where the Pastor and his wife minister to everybody, however long it takes, never realizing that the true servants of God connect people to their Head, securing and enlarging that connection, not supplanting Him with themselves. They raise up the members of the body to minister one to another. The measure of ministry is not how much I can prophecy and lay hands on people, not how much of Christ I can display; but, how much of the expression of Christ I can raise up in others!
Bonhoeffer said, "A call to Christ is a call to the Church." I don't care how gifted or knowledgeable the man on stage is, he's not the body of Christ, and JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!
(I seem to keep having the same melt-down . . .)
---your brother, James Rohde
Quote from: reFORMer on July 29, 2008, 07:25:34 AM
This "wife" I noticed to be neglected in this discussion so far. We're to be so connected to a local body of believers they're like our own hands or feet, actual members of our own body for importance and function of our life. What Paul did wasn't like modern evangelizing. He didn't just go out and make individual converts to Jesus. We are now so inundated with the apostate Church, Babylon if you can endure hearing it, that it's very difficult to communicate the seriousness of this truth. Paul, a wise master builder, raised up a many membered body for Christ to express through. The intent is all that Jesus is and does is in each one to be developed to maturity. So they couldn't depend on him, Paul quickly left them to enjoy a Divine free-for-all without anybody but the Holy Spirit to be in charge. Today, people can speak like in the initial post on this thread and never miss THE CHURCH. That's because everywhere we go it is not allowed to function. We have professionals to do that.
I have friends I've sought for years to communicate this to and they just don't seem to hear it. They go to such a wonderful church where the Pastor and his wife minister to everybody, however long it takes, never realizing that the true servants of God connect people to their Head, securing and enlarging that connection, not supplanting Him with themselves. They raise up the members of the body to minister one to another. The measure of ministry is not how much I can prophecy and lay hands on people, not how much of Christ I can display; but, how much of the expression of Christ I can raise up in others!
Bonhoeffer said, "A call to Christ is a call to the Church." I don't care how gifted or knowledgeable the man on stage is, he's not the body of Christ, and JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!
(I seem to keep having the same melt-down . . .)
---your brother, James Rohde
So great to hear your passion about the body of Christ. Yes and amen! God is calling His Body to maturity! We are to be co-workers with Christ, submitting to ONEANOTHER in love, there are gifts and anointings as given by the Holy Spirit and recognised through revelation by the Holy Spirit not by one or two people but by the majority of believers. The Church, the Bride is not about one man at the top, but all equal in full maturity in Christ, under Christ the Head, working in the functions and gifts that God has given each individual for the purposes of God. We are to edify, encourage and build oneanother up in our faith, and the gifts of the Spirit, as we mature in Christ individually, working alongside eachother in the purposes of heaven.
QuoteBut why is Christ's commission to all who are now believers, to go into all the world and preach the gospel? If it doesn't matter whether people believe now or not, why were these His last words to us before He ascended to the father? Why did He send Paul to the gentiles? Why did it matter that all were made equal by receiving power of the Holy Spirit when they believed in Jesus as the Son of God? What difference does any of that make if all are saved anyway?
Hi DJ, for me the reason Jesus was sent and the reason Jesus sends us is to free people through Him from sin and death. Salvation is not complete just because one believes Jesus died for them. Believing is only the starting point on our journey toward full salvation, for we are reconciled by His death, but saved by His life.
All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.
So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.
Therefore Jesus send us out in order to proclaim His salvation by His LIFE.
His death reconciled all men, but His LIFE is what saves all men, this salvation is not a one time deal as such, but is a long process of walking in His LIFE and forsaking our own. Taking up the cross and following Him and enduring unto the end that we might be saved.
Thus we are told to proclaim His death and therefore His reconciliation for all men as a FACT that cannot be disputed , and we are to do this so that the entire world can have the same hope in His LIFE that we to have. Thus it is not by His death that sin and death are defeated but by His LIFE.
When we witness about that which Jesus done, we are first to tell all men that they have been reconciled because of His death, this fact breathes hope into the world that God does indeed love them. Then after people become aware of the fact of this reconciliation by His death we are to proclaim His resurrection. And it is because of the fact that He was resurrected OUT OF DEATH that the world is given hope of the same resurrection OUT OF DEATH. We are NOT saved from death, we are saved OUT OF DEATH, for it was while we were DEAD in sin that He died and was raised to life again for us.
So the resurrection is a moving from DEATH to LIFE, so as He died for all men, so to did He rise for all men, and this is the gospel of the good new toward ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.
DJ if you believe Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE?
God bless
I am becoming more and more convinced that we are very close to eradicating all disease.
I have heard some scientists say that if you can live another 20 years, you will be able to live forever (referring to stem cell research) and the implications for aging.
I just listened to a lecture by a scientist in California who thinks he has found the cure for MS and its sister auto-immune diseases (rheumatoid arthritis, type one diabetes, etc). These diseases affect ten percent of the world's population. He has successfully given rats the disease (MS) and successfully cured them. He says all he needs is 2.5 million dollars to take this to the next stage of human trials. Wouldn't you think people would be lining up to throw money at him? We are spending about 1 trillion a year to kill people, couldn't we spare 2.5 million to cure them of these deadly and debilitating diseases?
But there are two spirits warring with each other, aren't there?
We know from the Bible that Adam could not be allowed to live forever because of his knowledge of good and evil. It is the righteous in Christ who will live forever.
Thus, God has brought us to the brink of these discoveries today but will they be allowed to be realized until all evil is eradicted from the world first? ...lest [the evil man] live forever. Just what we need--a super race of satan's warlords living forever, poisoning the world and everything in it.
As always in recent times, we are on the brink of heaven on earth or total annihilation.
Choose life.
Quote from: DJ on July 29, 2008, 04:34:33 AM
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 25, 2008, 08:33:33 PM
Hey DJ.....I can relate so much to your posts. I remember when I first read about God's plan of ultimate reconciliation.....I had so many questions...
hi Stained Glass,
Can I ask where you actually first read about 'God's plan of ultimate reconciliation'? Was it in the bible?
Hi DJ.......it was what I read in the bible.....the book of Romans.......that's when I had my "Epiphany" moment. In fact, what spurred my search for Truth were two dreams I had......one of my grandmother, and the other of a coworker/friend.......and they both have died. I never thought they would have made it to heaven because of their lifestyle and beliefs, but to my surprise God showed me that they were extremely happy (understatement) and conveyed God's love to me as I had never seen it before through them. I also read a book by Andrew Jukes called
Restitution of All Things.
Hope this helps DJ...
Romans 11
33-36Have you ever come on anything quite like this extravagant generosity of God, this deep, deep wisdom? It's way over our heads. We'll never figure it out.
Is there anyone around who can explain God?
Anyone smart enough to tell him what to do?
Anyone who has done him such a huge favor
that God has to ask his advice?
Everything comes from him;
Everything happens through him;
Everything ends up in him. Always glory! Always praise!
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Dear Pneuma,
I totally agree with your description of the gospel. Yes, we are not only dead in Christ but now alive in Christ, praise God. You are right, Christ's death cannot be separated from His resurrection. It was His resurrection that the disciples preached, you are right. It is His resurrection that is the hope for all mankind. The full gospel is the death and resurrection. I agree He died for all, all are reconciled through His death and all are given life through His resurrection, out of death, as you say. I can't however, get past the point of faith (which is given to us by God in His grace anyway, all have the capacity to believe, or reject) and personal response to accepting this truth for ourselves, as revealed by the Spirit to us. I heard John Bevere give a definition of the word 'believe' in as meaning 'to follow'. Believing (in our terms) is first yes, and then taking up our cross daily and living following Christ, I agree is the full walk of salvation. Again, we can only do any of this by God's grace through faith hey.
I feel the Spirit of God on what you have written and thank you.
Hi DJ, your welcome and thank you for your words.
If I may I would like to add something about the faith you meantioned.
I agree we must have a LIVING faith to WALK with God and the scriptures declare a measure of faith is given to all men, so all men have faith but all men are not aware of this faith in them.
The faith everyman has is woken up in them by the hearing of His word and mankind then goes from a DEAD faith to a LIVING faith, from a faith without works to a faith of works, from faith to faith.
Thus as Christ died for all men, all men are DEAD in Christ, and those who are dead in Christ we are told are ASLEEP in Him.
The ministry of the gospel is to AWAKEN mankind by the WORD of God in order that they may become aware of the faith hidden in them and move from faith to faith.
The scriptures tell us every knee shall bow and tongue CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father, that no man can SAY Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost, and that CONFESSION is made unto salvation.
Thus all mankind will believe and move from a DEAD faith into a LIVING faith in Christ and all do the work of the Father.
God bless
pneuma --
I liked what you said. You've really blessed me today, brother!
Thank you! :icon_flower:
Joyce :)
:happy3: :thumbsup: