Questioning Faith?

[Nathan]

I read a post recently about the idea that people are constantly question their faith . . .constantly walk around guarded with what they see and beleive, looking to be sure what they believe is the most accurate rendition.

My question is . . .isn't that kind of an oxy moron sort of thing? 

If faith is believing what can't be seen is there, accepting what can't be understood . . .how can one walk in constant questioning when faith is actually constant "receiving" no questions asked?

For me, I wonder if there's a difference between "rejecting" something and simply putting it on the back burner and letting it take on it's own form before going any further with it.

Is walking in faith the same as walking in uncertainty?  Is it walking in knowledge?  Walking in questioning?  For me, to question everything is evidence that my mind is exerting it's control, that may be why I'm wrestling with this concept of "questioning faith".

[Molly]

There is something called 'breaking faith.'

Joshua 22:16
"The whole assembly of the LORD says: 'How could you break faith with the God of Israel like this? How could you turn away from the LORD and build yourselves an altar in rebellion against him now?


"break" [faith]

H7725
שׁוּב
shûb
shoob
A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat;


I would imagine 'questioning your faith' would be the same thing.  But, faith, by definition, is constant.  Otherwise, if you have faith/no faith, you are double-minded--vacillating--and, as any unstable structure, liable to tip over at any minute. :winkgrin:



James 1:8
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

[Nathan]

I remember seeing that "double-minded" passage being used against people who would have a change of understanding about something.  It was used to hold you to remain in one belief.  It's spiritually, kind of what the old traditional Chinese used to do, not sure they do it anymore, but the culture was that it was a great think for women to have tiny feet so they put them in these wooden blocks that would not allow their feet to grow normally.

The intent was to keep feet tiny, the reality was, it deformed the feet, they still grew, but they grew so distorted that you had to wince just looking at the actual foot.

Being double-minded to me is not the same as having a change of thinking.  On one end, we're told to "renew our minds" and on the other, we're accused of being double minded when our renewed minds lead us in another direction of belief.

Back to the questioning faith thing . . .I believe a person would find it hard to step out "in faith" if they are constantly questioning the faith they're to be stepping out 'in".  If it's visible, it's not faith, it's fact.  Same thing with building my doctrine on what's written.  How can I call it my "faith" if it's only built on what's already written?

[Molly]

How can I call it my "faith" if it's only built on what's already written?

Because it agrees with what's written--a second witness.

[shawn]

I read a post recently about the idea that people are constantly question their faith . . .constantly walk around guarded with what they see and beleive, looking to be sure what they believe is the most accurate rendition.

My question is . . .isn't that kind of an oxy moron sort of thing? 

If faith is believing what can't be seen is there, accepting what can't be understood . . .how can one walk in constant questioning when faith is actually constant "receiving" no questions asked?

For me, I wonder if there's a difference between "rejecting" something and simply putting it on the back burner and letting it take on it's own form before going any further with it.

Is walking in faith the same as walking in uncertainty?  Is it walking in knowledge?  Walking in questioning?  For me, to question everything is evidence that my mind is exerting it's control, that may be why I'm wrestling with this concept of "questioning faith".

I can only speak for myself.  I have questioned everything about my faith from God's existence, the cross, Jesus, heaven, hell etc.  For me, it was part of the process.  I don't believe it was God's will for me to live like that forever.  Everything has it's season.  Without questioning everything, I could never understand the futility in doing so.  I question very little today.  I have peace that God places people, places and things in my life with purpose and plan.  Each part teaches me something new.  I walk in faith because I know walking without it.

With that in mind, I do not accept every teaching from a new pastor, "mystic" or "prophet".  I measure their words with THE Word and through prayer and the power of the Holy Spirit...God brings me revelation.  And yes, I have some things on the back burner and I think it's perfectly acceptable to do so. 

[Nathan]

How can I call it my "faith" if it's only built on what's already written?

Because it agrees with what's written--a second witness.

But what if what I'm reading is being read wrong?  I agree with the second witness, but for me the order is backwards.  I believe what is written on my heart is foremost and what is already written is the second witness.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think we can question and second guess ourselves to death, however the bible does not just speak of faith,  I believe that it is faith in the pursuit of God which does include reason, study, questioning and living it out.

I have not always believed the same about God, I have questioned what I am "told" about him, I question biblical doctrines that assert who he is, I question anyone that tells me I have to believe what they do, or see it their way or believe a certain way,  but I have a blind faith that there is a God and an unshakable belief that he is good and that is something I nor anyone else can see "directly".

[Quaesitor]

I've read somewhere a great example of what is faith.

If your friend whom you trust comes to you and tell you he has a penny in his pocket, would you believe him?
We could say that first it's very possible to have a penny in a pocket and 2nd that this fiend is to be trusted.
So based on logic and experience on that person, you would believe your friend.

The other example is the same friend telling you he has a real adult elephant in his pocket.
1st, it is absolutely impossible to have an elephant in a pants pocket and as much as you trust this friend, it can't be true. So you wouldn't put your faith in what he told you.

It's the same for me about my faith in God.
It has to make sense first, sure my logic can be deceived but most of the time, I'm able to think through things.

But for God nothing is impossible so he's really easy to believe.. :grin:
( I say nothing but in fact it is impossible for God to go against his very nature because he is ungeanging and perfect)

I hope I make sense...

[WhiteWings]

I hope I make sense...

A lot.

[Nathan]

Can we explain why Jesus only healed certain people and not everyone he came into contact with?  Can we explain why Jesus had to still die when you'd think he could have done what God did and just speak the words instead?  How could the Holy Spirit conceive the seed of Christ in a womb of a virgin? 

Can we explain really what physical death is like, what happens after death? 

As far as I'm concerned, questions like these . . .and I'm sure countless others are, as you say, elephants in someone's pocket.  There comes a place and time where we simply have to let go of our logic and accept in faith these things. 

Our minds do play a role.  Understanding does come.  But not through our own logic or reasoning.  Our minds are the veils that keep us from entering into the depths of truth.  But once the order is in it's proper alignment, our minds are still able to see and understanding is birthed "in" them.  We grow as we go.  But to rely more on my logic and reasoning rather than faith is where I believe the division comes.

If God came to you and told you he had an elephant in his pocket, but you couldn't see it . .would you believe "Him" or hold to your own logic and reasoning.  We're not talking on the same dimension when we venture into spiritual truths.  God could have a whole herd of elephants in his pocket, but until I allow him to draw me into his realm, I'll never see them.  That's the whole point here.  We can't use natural principles in this realm and try to apply them in God's realm.

Listen to the sound of his voice, and he will reveal to you the kingdom principles written in natural pages with natural words, but you'll walk away with an entirely different conclusion.

[Quaesitor]

Can we explain why Jesus only healed certain people and not everyone he came into contact with?  Can we explain why Jesus had to still die when you'd think he could have done what God did and just speak the words instead?  How could the Holy Spirit conceive the seed of Christ in a womb of a virgin?

I think we can, is it necessary to know how it works to believe it? no, but it's important to know that God CAN have herds of elephants in his pocket.

This is why, when a man tells me he knows what there is after physical death, I cannot believe him fully because he hasno way of knowing hence God created the afterlife of humanity so I can believe his (mere) descriptions of it.

Our minds do play a role.  Understanding does come.  But not through our own logic or reasoning.  Our minds are the veils that keep us from entering into the depths of truth.  But once the order is in it's proper alignment, our minds are still able to see and understanding is birthed "in" them.  We grow as we go.  But to rely more on my logic and reasoning rather than faith is where I believe the division comes.

The apostle Paul calls for the renewing of our mind, that is, to change mindset, to see and understand things like Christ did, only the Holy Spirit can do that but it's still about our mind, our intelligence, wisdom.
Was Solomon's wisdom carnal?
Did it not come from God?

If God came to you and told you he had an elephant in his pocket, but you couldn't see it . .would you believe "Him" or hold to your own logic and reasoning.  We're not talking on the same dimension when we venture into spiritual truths.  God could have a whole herd of elephants in his pocket, but until I allow him to draw me into his realm, I'll never see them.  That's the whole point here.  We can't use natural principles in this realm and try to apply them in God's realm.

How I see it,it is Jesus coming on the earth, it is heavens invading the earthly realm not the opposite.
It is God, Master of all, making himself known to the earthly realm by taking their forms and using their logic and speaking their language because that is what LOVE does.

When Jesus does miracles, is it himself doing them?
No, it is God doing them through him.
Why?
Because of his faith.
From where comes his faith.
From the knowledge that God can do anything, from the knowledge that God has chosen Jesus as his earthly representative.
Faith comes from knowledge.
That knowledge comes from the word of God, either Scriptures or revelations.
Ignorant faith leads only to doubts and despair.

That's where I'm standing right now, big chances I'm wrong... :laughing7:

That's my problem with those who use the word heresy anywhere :cough:John MacArthur:cough:, do they think they have understood the totality of God's mysteries.
They can claim to have understood the infinity of our God, how 's that?

Peace.

[Nathan]

I don't think you got my point because you basically agreed with me. . at least in the first part.

You stated . .
The other example is the same friend telling you he has a real adult elephant in his pocket.
1st, it is absolutely impossible to have an elephant in a pants pocket and as much as you trust this friend, it can't be true. So you wouldn't put your faith in what he told you

That's what I was responding to.  In "this" realm, when you're talking about "natural" things, then your mind relies on what it "sees" which affects what it "beleives".

But when it comes to spiritual things, you can't rely on what your mind is seeing . . . You can't explain why Jesus didn't heal everyone because there's no explanation given.  You can draw conclusions of why you "think" he didn't, but those conclusions would be based on natural reasoning.  You can't explain how Jesus walked on the water, how he put a guys ear back on and it not only stayed there, but it was healed.  How he could visibly transform into his glorious state right before their very eyes.  All of these things require "faith" on our part to realize they happened.  We have to let go of our logic and let the Spirit reveal spiritual logic to us. 

That's all I'm trying to say . .that and the fact that I also believe that it's the same way with Scripture as well.  Without the HS, the Bible is merely a book.  We read it, study it, learn culture, context and language, but we still can walk away just as blind as when we first opened it unless there is some measure of faith and a great measure of Spirit to bring these passages to life.

[Quaesitor]

I don't think you got my point because you basically agreed with me. . at least in the first part.

You stated . .
The other example is the same friend telling you he has a real adult elephant in his pocket.
1st, it is absolutely impossible to have an elephant in a pants pocket and as much as you trust this friend, it can't be true. So you wouldn't put your faith in what he told you

That's what I was responding to.  In "this" realm, when you're talking about "natural" things, then your mind relies on what it "sees" which affects what it "beleives".

But when it comes to spiritual things, you can't rely on what your mind is seeing . . . You can't explain why Jesus didn't heal everyone because there's no explanation given.  You can draw conclusions of why you "think" he didn't, but those conclusions would be based on natural reasoning.  You can't explain how Jesus walked on the water, how he put a guys ear back on and it not only stayed there, but it was healed.  How he could visibly transform into his glorious state right before their very eyes.  All of these things require "faith" on our part to realize they happened.  We have to let go of our logic and let the Spirit reveal spiritual logic to us. 

That's all I'm trying to say . .that and the fact that I also believe that it's the same way with Scripture as well.  Without the HS, the Bible is merely a book.  We read it, study it, learn culture, context and language, but we still can walk away just as blind as when we first opened it unless there is some measure of faith and a great measure of Spirit to bring these passages to life.

Once again, my french is getting in the way... :laughing7:

I agree with your post except that most of your questions are about understanding HOW things work and that's not what I mean by knowledge or logic.
I mean, I don't really know, or have to know how a plane can fly to trust that it can. But if I've never seen a plane fly without crashing then there's no chance I'm getting aboard it for a trip, I wouldn't trust it.

There's also an understanding of the word used there we translate faith.
It's not only a word about spiritual matters.
I remember reading about Josephus writing a letter to the dissident Jews and telling them "repent and believe in me" and that meant stop thinking you can win through the military way, take my way.

So having faith in Jesus as the Messiah is siding with him and believing him when he declares he is the King of the whole world.

But I agree that without the HS we'll stay blind as moles and totally carnal in our understanding.