So, you are saying that there is no hell. Please explain to me this: if hell does not exist, then why did God send His son to die for our sins? What was the purpose of Christ living as a man and dying on the cross? Was it not to give us the opportunity to come into a relationship with God so that we could live eternally with Him? There are verses all throughout the Bible that talk about how we are separated from God because of our sin. We cannot meet up to His perfect standards, and, therefore, cannot be in His perfect presence. If we cannot be with Him, then we must be separated from Him. When the Bible talks about death, it is talking about our spiritual death: hell. Paul talks about the depravity of man and the judgment that will fall on us in Romans. But, in His love and grace, God gave us a way out: accepting Christ. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but through me" (John 14:6). "For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8). "For the wages of SIN is DEATH. But the free GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE through JESUS CHRIST our Lord" (Romans 6:23). Why would we need to be saved, to accept this gift if there is no hell? If we are all going to heaven anyways, then why did Christ die? You are making a serious accusation that is clearly un-biblical, and I would encourage you to read the Word and pray for wisdom from the Lord. Christ's death is the center of Christianity, and his loving sacrifice would be pointless if we didn't need to be saved from something.
Well, I hope that you spend a little more time in this site and learn some of the answers to those questions because "every word in your post" is spoken by Newbies every time. and In a few months of "learning" you may come to a different understanding of the Spiritual nature of His Word.
Lee
Hi Kat,
We most certainly are saved from "something."
Sin and death.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now if we believe our will can thwart the will of God then there is really no point in discussion, if puny man can ultimately defy God's stated plan and purpose is He truly sovereign and all powerful? Or is He merely a god with a "wish list" lacking the foresight, wisdom and power to do his own will.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Jesus made this promise (was He being untruthful?).
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
I believe He was indeed "lifted up." :gthumbsup:
We have a truly encouraging promise, God wills all to be saved! What does He say about His own Word?
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Sounds like when He says something He really means it! Do you believe God was taken off guard by sin, that so many "perfect" creatures kept telling Him to "bug off, I will do it my own way thank you very much."
No, of course not, God did not have to go to a "plan B" when sin appeared. It was all included in Plan A!
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
An awesome promise from an awesome God! I am sure there will be more and even better answers to follow.
Take care and above all, believe His Word!
rm
Good stuff river man
here is some things gathered along the way that helped me see more clearly others have shared this food for thought , and filled us with great hope .
What is "hell"?
It is an Old English word substituted for "Sheol", "Hades", "Gehenna"and "Tartarus." "Sheol" and "Hades" refer to the same place and "Tartarus" is the depth of the same place. The final judgment place, the Lake of Fire, is not even called "hell"......but "hell" gets thrown into it. In Ecclesiastes, we find the very definition of "Sheol" or "Hades:"
(Eccl 9:10 KJV) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
If the KJ translators would've kept their translation straight, it would've read ".....nor wisdom, in HELL, whither thou goest." The translators used the word "hell" in the Old Testament 31 times for the word "Sheol" and also 31 times they used "grave."
We all know,on the surface, there is no work, no reasoning, no knowledge, no wisdom in the grave or "hell".....so why point all this out if there wasn't a deeper, hidden meaning? Just 2 verses later in Ecclesiastes, we find:
(Eccl 9:12 KJV) For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
Who was caught in an evil net.....who has been snared in an evil time? The church has:
they are the only ones given this knowledge , who else in the world knew ?
Israel was chosen of God and than cut off for a time because of idolatry worshipping many gods
(Rev 2:10 KJV) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Paul warned the church in tears for 3 YEARS because he knew this would happen:
Acts 20: 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Why did Jesus say he has the keys to "hell".....Hades.....and death to the churches? It means the church can be let out only by Jesus....who has the victory over his enemies. The gates of "hell".....Hades will not prevail:
(Mat 16:18 KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The church has been lying in the condition of having no spiritual knowledge, wisdom, and reasoning. Without these things, there are no righteous works he Can do in them because of unbelief. Jesus described this condition as "night." The church has been "asleep" at night....men do not work at night:
(John 9:4 KJV) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
There will no longer be any "night" of the church when the Lord comes to redeem us from this condition:
(Rev 22:5 KJV) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Pro 15:24 The way of LIFE IS ABOVE ((to the wise)), that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.
Isa 14:9 HELL from beneath (is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming): it stirreth up THE DEAD for thee, even (all the chief ones) OF THE EARTH; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are FROM BENEATH; I am FROM ABOVE: ye are OF THIS WORLD; I am NOT OF THIS WORLD.
Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant OF THE DAY, and my covenant OF THE NIGHT, and that there should not be DAY AND NIGHT IN THEIR SEASON;
Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not WITH DAY AND NIGHT, and if I have not appointed the ordinances OF HEAVEN AND EARTH;
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and THE GATES OF HELL shall not prevail against it.
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders IN HEAVEN ABOVE, and signs IN THE EARTH (BENEATH); blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Pro 15:24 The way of LIFE IS ABOVE ((to the wise)), that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.
The wise depart from "hell" beneath....they depart from the condition of having no knowledge, no wisdom, no righteous works. That is why Jesus tells the churches that he has the keys to "hell" and death....so that those of the church may depart from "hell" beneath.
The churches have been tested by Satan....just as he asked for permission and tested Job....just as he asked and tested Peter....tested as "wheat" though...meaning we were to stay in the "wheat" status.
"Sheol" is derived from a root word (shaal) which means "to ask, to demand, to lay to charge, to desire".....Satan asked and received permission to test the church (tribulation: "....ye shall have tribulation ten days:")....foreshadowed by Job.
Satan tested Jesus as well....so he has tested the church....his body. This is why there are a thousand denominations...and many different ways to interpret the Scriptures....we have been scattered and our languages confounded....like the builders of Babel....."Babylon" = "confusion."
The church...his body...has followed the pattern of Christ....his suffering, his death, and eventually his resurrection. The Lord will heal us of the effects of the trial by Satan.... we will be revived and gathered together in one mind:
Hosea 6: 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
The church has been in "Hades.'/grave
The Jewish people/ Israel have also been....but "Gehenna" is more descriptive of their condition. They have (temporarily) suffered in this life a separation from their God and His kingdom (in outer darkness). Jesus warned the Jewish leaders back then of the impending judgment that they were about to suffer. Said to the Pharisees:
Matthew 23: 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
"...the damnation of hell"....the judgment of Gehenna....which is the "valley of Hinnom".....the "valley of lamentation"...a spiritual condition of weeping and gnashing of teeth.....because they received not yet the promises.
John the Baptist warned them also:
Matthew 3: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
The Valley of Hinnom's sons, Gehenna, was a place where children were burned as sacrifices to Moloch. By not believing and receiving Jesus as their Messiah, they caused the judgment to affect all those after them.....they caused their "children" to also go through the fire....Gehenna....because of their actions. They had made them "twice the child of hell"....of Gehenna:
(Mat 23:15 KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
(Luke 23:28 KJV) But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. Pro 15:24 The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.
HE is THE WAY THE TRUTH and THE LIFE THE WAY OF LIFE
Ephes 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDETH FIRST into the lower parts OF THE EARTH?
The DEAD were those NOT having HIS LIFE IN THEM.
John 6:53 Jesus said UNTO THEM, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, YE HAVE NO LIFE IN YOU.
HELL BENEATH YE are FROM BENEATH called THE GATES OF DEATH.
Psalm 9:13 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I SUFFER OF THEM that hate me you that liftest me up from the gates of death :
it is of this world he that hates his brother dwells in death
John 15:18 If the world hate you , ye know that it hated me before it hated you
You little children have over come them , or OVERCOMING THE WORLD is overcoming them (that HATE ME).
many have helped share this same message to others
hope it helps you too .
God bless
:cloud9: Welcome to the board........there are many friendly faces here to help you in your search. There are many articles on the main site, as well as here, to help you, as well. Come with an open heart to receive and an open mind, and you will not be disappointed. Blessings to you.....
Amen, great post riverman.
Quote from: rosered on December 05, 2009, 05:20:50 PM
here is some things gathered along the way that helped me see more clearly others have shared this food for thought , and filled us with great hope .
What is "hell"?
It is an Old English word substituted for "Sheol", "Hades", "Gehenna"and "Tartarus." "Sheol" and "Hades" refer to the same place and "Tartarus" is the depth of the same place. The final judgment place, the Lake of Fire, is not even called "hell"......but "hell" gets thrown into it. In Ecclesiastes, we find the very definition of "Sheol" or "Hades:"
(Eccl 9:10 KJV) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
If the KJ translators would've kept their translation straight, it would've read ".....nor wisdom, in HELL, whither thou goest." The translators used the word "hell" in the Old Testament 31 times for the word "Sheol" and also 31 times they used "grave."
We all know,on the surface, there is no work, no reasoning, no knowledge, no wisdom in the grave or "hell".....so why point all this out if there wasn't a deeper, hidden meaning? Just 2 verses later in Ecclesiastes, we find:
(Eccl 9:12 KJV) For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
Who was caught in an evil net.....who has been snared in an evil time? The church has:
they are the only ones given this knowledge , who else in the world knew ?
Israel was chosen of God and than cut off for a time because of idolatry worshipping many gods
(Rev 2:10 KJV) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Paul warned the church in tears for 3 YEARS because he knew this would happen:
Acts 20: 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Why did Jesus say he has the keys to "hell".....Hades.....and death to the churches? It means the church can be let out only by Jesus....who has the victory over his enemies. The gates of "hell".....Hades will not prevail:
(Mat 16:18 KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The church has been lying in the condition of having no spiritual knowledge, wisdom, and reasoning. Without these things, there are no righteous works he Can do in them because of unbelief. Jesus described this condition as "night." The church has been "asleep" at night....men do not work at night:
(John 9:4 KJV) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
There will no longer be any "night" of the church when the Lord comes to redeem us from this condition:
(Rev 22:5 KJV) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Pro 15:24 The way of LIFE IS ABOVE ((to the wise)), that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.
Isa 14:9 HELL from beneath (is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming): it stirreth up THE DEAD for thee, even (all the chief ones) OF THE EARTH; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are FROM BENEATH; I am FROM ABOVE: ye are OF THIS WORLD; I am NOT OF THIS WORLD.
Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant OF THE DAY, and my covenant OF THE NIGHT, and that there should not be DAY AND NIGHT IN THEIR SEASON;
Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not WITH DAY AND NIGHT, and if I have not appointed the ordinances OF HEAVEN AND EARTH;
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and THE GATES OF HELL shall not prevail against it.
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders IN HEAVEN ABOVE, and signs IN THE EARTH (BENEATH); blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Pro 15:24 The way of LIFE IS ABOVE ((to the wise)), that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.
The wise depart from "hell" beneath....they depart from the condition of having no knowledge, no wisdom, no righteous works. That is why Jesus tells the churches that he has the keys to "hell" and death....so that those of the church may depart from "hell" beneath.
The churches have been tested by Satan....just as he asked for permission and tested Job....just as he asked and tested Peter....tested as "wheat" though...meaning we were to stay in the "wheat" status.
"Sheol" is derived from a root word (shaal) which means "to ask, to demand, to lay to charge, to desire".....Satan asked and received permission to test the church (tribulation: "....ye shall have tribulation ten days:")....foreshadowed by Job.
Satan tested Jesus as well....so he has tested the church....his body. This is why there are a thousand denominations...and many different ways to interpret the Scriptures....we have been scattered and our languages confounded....like the builders of Babel....."Babylon" = "confusion."
The church...his body...has followed the pattern of Christ....his suffering, his death, and eventually his resurrection. The Lord will heal us of the effects of the trial by Satan.... we will be revived and gathered together in one mind:
Hosea 6: 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
The church has been in "Hades.'/grave
The Jewish people/ Israel have also been....but "Gehenna" is more descriptive of their condition. They have (temporarily) suffered in this life a separation from their God and His kingdom (in outer darkness). Jesus warned the Jewish leaders back then of the impending judgment that they were about to suffer. Said to the Pharisees:
Matthew 23: 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
"...the damnation of hell"....the judgment of Gehenna....which is the "valley of Hinnom".....the "valley of lamentation"...a spiritual condition of weeping and gnashing of teeth.....because they received not yet the promises.
John the Baptist warned them also:
Matthew 3: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
The Valley of Hinnom's sons, Gehenna, was a place where children were burned as sacrifices to Moloch. By not believing and receiving Jesus as their Messiah, they caused the judgment to affect all those after them.....they caused their "children" to also go through the fire....Gehenna....because of their actions. They had made them "twice the child of hell"....of Gehenna:
(Mat 23:15 KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
(Luke 23:28 KJV) But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. Pro 15:24 The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.
HE is THE WAY THE TRUTH and THE LIFE THE WAY OF LIFE
many have helped share this same message to others
hope it helps you too .
God bless
What she said :bigGrin:. Welcome.
Wow rosered, that was amazing, I have never heard it described that way before and it was so enlightening! Thanks so much for sharing that! :cloud9:
:cloud9: Great post Rose....... :thumbsup:
Hi there KatCleary,
On the main site there is some material on a lady by the name of Hannah Whitall Smith. She lived in the early twentieth century and was a part of the holiness movement. Anyway, later in her life she started to believe in the salvation of all. And I thought you might like to read her testimony about how she came to believe in God's love for all people. Just click on this link:
http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/ThirdEpochInMyLife.html
Wow! Great post SIS...... Godspeak, I do
beleive :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: KatCleary on December 05, 2009, 12:06:47 PM
So, you are saying that there is no hell. Please explain to me this: if hell does not exist, then why did God send His son to die for our sins? What was the purpose of Christ living as a man and dying on the cross? Was it not to give us the opportunity to come into a relationship with God so that we could live eternally with Him? There are verses all throughout the Bible that talk about how we are separated from God because of our sin. We cannot meet up to His perfect standards, and, therefore, cannot be in His perfect presence. If we cannot be with Him, then we must be separated from Him. When the Bible talks about death, it is talking about our spiritual death: hell. Paul talks about the depravity of man and the judgment that will fall on us in Romans. But, in His love and grace, God gave us a way out: accepting Christ. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but through me" (John 14:6). "For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8). "For the wages of SIN is DEATH. But the free GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE through JESUS CHRIST our Lord" (Romans 6:23). Why would we need to be saved, to accept this gift if there is no hell? If we are all going to heaven anyways, then why did Christ die? You are making a serious accusation that is clearly un-biblical, and I would encourage you to read the Word and pray for wisdom from the Lord. Christ's death is the center of Christianity, and his loving sacrifice would be pointless if we didn't need to be saved from something.
Dear sister,
We all were like you at one point in our walk with the Lord and we understand that you feel you are urging us out of love to reconsider what we believe. Thank you for your compassion!
Now I would like to draw your attention to the very scriptures you have listed as proof for what you believe.
"For the wages of sin is
death!" That's right! Death was the punishment of sin, not eternal torment in hell. Please explain to us how is hell spiritual death? Have you ever studied the word hell?
"The
free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Just how is it a free gift if we are forced to believe or else we will be tormented in hell for all eternity?
We need to accept his free gift of salvation in order to be saved from
ourselves, not hell. Why must there be a hell to be saved from, aren't we horrible enough all by ourselves? "The heart is deceitfully wicked above all things."
Christ died to restore our relationship to the Father that was separated by sin, and that he did for all men!
I felt the compassion in your post and now feel the compassion that I have for you too and consider studying, searching, seeking a little deeper in the scripture than what you have been taught by man.
In His All Encompassing Love...
Hi- I am totally new here, although recently concluded that Universalism is "Paul's Gospel" so to speak. I don't think Universalists say "there is no hell". They have different views about it opposed to traditional Church teachings, such as:
"Hell" means different things, depending on the word it's translated from, most commonly "the grave", "the place of death" and "a refuse dump".
The Lake of Fire is not hell, because death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, as at the time of restoration, they serve no further purpose and can be banished forever
Torment by fire is not denied by Universalism, at least not from most of the articles I've read here on Tentmaker. It is believed to be corrective, restorative, refining, and purgative, as opposed to never-ending and without purpose. Careful translation of words for "eternal" and "everlasting" prove this to be true
When various Bible passages say things like "no fornicator, nor covetous, nor murderer, nor sorcerer, nor <enter sin here> can enter the Kingdom of Heaven", of course that is true- and this is the purpose of God's consuming fire, it is to purge these things out, so that the soul can be saved, yet as by fire"
I hope this was of some help. I am new to this way of believing, so may not be real good at expressing it, but will affirm that if one dies as an unbeliever, he or she will at some point after death become a believer, as the wickedness of their soul will be purged by fire, in the presence of the Lamb. This MUST be true, because there will come a time when every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord.
Amen and welcome to the family. And yeah, for me, there is still a hell, just not the one projected by tradition. Jesus stated that "in this world" we will have trials and tribulation . . .for me . . .that's the hell others think is waiting for every person who has not mentally given the cross permission to redeem them . . .or . .in the church's wording of it . . .hell awaits those who don't accept Christ as their personal savior.
Hell is hear and now . . .but so is heaven. It just depends on which dimension we choose to walk in . . .spirit, or flesh.
Kat posted that in december of last year, lol.
I was addressing Coldwar . . .Didn't really look much at who originated the thread.
And a very good address indeed!
Coldwar's too!