Matthew 5:29

[marie glen]

Mt 5:29 says it's better to pluck your eye out than be led astray by it.. Over and over, it seems to me, is the message that this wandering away from God our Father and Maker, is extremely serious business. That yes, without a doubt, He will ultimately save, deliver and rescue every single one. But if not for His intervention, aLL would perish. Without a doubt. Yet He subjected all creation to futility (entropy), in eager expectation of the precious fruit of the Earth.

Although He saves all, it doesn't take away from the gravity of it all. I believe to wander away from Him- if it were possible - would be ultimately to cease to exist. And this is why I think some very dramatic language is used.. better to pluck out your eye!

(Also? better one member of the church be cast out than the whole body led astray?)
:Peace2:

[Seth]

I actually see a James 3:6 correlation to Matthew 5 here. Both scriptures talk about gehenna, and refer to a specific body part in metaphorical terms. And both are addressed as warnings to believers. James says that the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. It seems to me that Jesus, speaking directly to his disciples here, is coming from the perspective of being on spiritual Zion and casting the eye out to spiritual gehenna, because the eye is cought on fire, a fire which can threaten to consume your whole body.

I think ETers assume that Jesus is threatening eternal hell to people who fail to perform this spiritual surgery, but I think Jesus is warning about the natural consequence of sin having a contagious and destructive affect on one's self if left unaddressed. Certainly, I do see God active in judgment on that, in some cases.

But that is how I understand the seriousness of the message without correlating it to the gruesome doctrine of hell.

[jugghead]

What I believe also relates to this are the words fierceness and wrath, like in Revelation 19:15, their original meanings are passion and desire, what I believe the wandering away is; when God puts a passion (a passion for Him) in our hearts, the flesh walks away with this passion and the flesh then uses it to fulfill its own desires rather than the desires of God.

They didn't wait around to hear God's desire, for all men to come to the knowledge of the truth

They left with the feeling of salvation before coming to fully understand what (or should I say "WHO") it is

When men do not wait to hear what this passion is to be used for, they run with it and use it to make themselves look righteous in the eyes of others rather then using it to show how righteous the Father and the Son are.

[eaglesway]

It is better for one of your members to perish than to enter whole into gehenna.

Interestingly enough again gehenna comes up in the context of morality and lust.

"For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. It is a devastating fire that destroys to hell." Job 31:11

Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? Prov 6:26

I agree  that Jesus is speaking of the fire one unleashes into his/her own life when certain things are yielded to within- the kingdom of heaven is within. All of the aionion consequences of sin begin here-as do the aionion fruits of righteousness. The fire is already burning. It will continue to burn for some when they awaken in His presence and the glory of His face and the fire in His eyes exposes every hidden thing until every knee bows.... but the terror of it will attach like fire to ones life while they live, and wreak havoc all around them.

[Dandelion]

Yes, the consequences of sin is serious business. We often spend years of our life trying to 'come back' from seriously poor choices.

We are forgiven, but the damages can be very severe.....to our own life, and it seems often to others, who had no choice in the matter.

Sin never just stays in a nice, neat little pile. There are repercussions to sin.

It boomerangs; it vibrates; it spills; it seeps into places we wish it hadn't gone. Its tentacles envelope people, places, and generations.

Numbers 14:18

The LORD is slow to anger and filled with unfailing love, forgiving every kind of sin and rebellion. But he does not excuse the guilty. He lays the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected--even children in the third and fourth generations.'


Though the above is very hard to accept, I do believe there is reality to this, we need to consider. The children feel the consequences of those sins, even though they may not commit those same sins, themselves. We see this in the story of Adam and Eve; of Abraham and Sarah regarding Hagar and Ismael; of the people of Israel, wandering for 40 years, not acknowledging the one true God, and on and on. Original sin began, more sins occurred, and the echos fill the earth.

When we sin, we venture into darkness. Though God is always with us, we have chosen to follow a path He did not choose for us.

Though He can and does use all things for good, for those who love Him and are called to His purpose and what men meant for evil He uses for good.....our paths can take turns and twists that were never supposed to be.

I believe that in the truth and light of UR, we can see that to obey God is not to avoid damnation, but to have a more abundant and peaceful existence. 

◄ Psalm 51 ►

A Contrite Sinner's Prayer for Pardon.

For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

1Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
            According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
      2Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
            And cleanse me from my sin.

      3For I know my transgressions,
            And my sin is ever before me.

      4Against You, You only, I have sinned
            And done what is evil in Your sight,
            So that You are justified when You speak
            And blameless when You judge.

      5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
            And in sin my mother conceived me.

      6Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
            And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.

      7Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
            Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

      8Make me to hear joy and gladness,
            Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.

      9Hide Your face from my sins
            And blot out all my iniquities.

      10Create in me a clean heart, O God,
            And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

      11Do not cast me away from Your presence
            And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

      12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
            And sustain me with a willing spirit.

      13Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
            And sinners will be converted to You.

      14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
            Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.

      15O Lord, open my lips,
            That my mouth may declare Your praise.

      16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
            You are not pleased with burnt offering.

      17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
            A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

      18By Your favor do good to Zion;
            Build the walls of Jerusalem.

      19Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
            In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
            Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

And, just to be enveloped in His plan for us, which is where we will find most fulfillment and meaning.... and be our truest, most loving, and grounded selves.

To love God is to love our best self, and to love 'our neighbors' as well. 

Matthew 13:
44The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and in his joy he went and sold all he had and bought that field.

45Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls. 46When he found one very precious pearl, he went away and sold all he had and bought it.

D.

[Cocoon]

It is better for one of your members to perish than to enter whole into gehenna.

Interestingly enough again gehenna comes up in the context of morality and lust.

"For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. It is a devastating fire that destroys to hell." Job 31:11

Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? Prov 6:26

I agree  that Jesus is speaking of the fire one unleashes into his/her own life when certain things are yielded to within- the kingdom of heaven is within. All of the aionion consequences of sin begin here-as do the aionion fruits of righteousness. The fire is already burning. It will continue to burn for some when they awaken in His presence and the glory of His face and the fire in His eyes exposes every hidden thing until every knee bows.... but the terror of it will attach like fire to ones life while they live, and wreak havoc all around them.

:HeartThrob:

I love this.  What a key connection (Job 31:11)

[marie glen]

I agree  that Jesus is speaking of the fire one unleashes into his/her own life when certain things are yielded to within- the kingdom of heaven is within. All of the aionion consequences of sin begin here-as do the aionion fruits of righteousness. The fire is already burning. It will continue to burn for some when they awaken in His presence and the glory of His face and the fire in His eyes exposes every hidden thing until every knee bows.... but the terror of it will attach like fire to ones life while they live, and wreak havoc all around them.

Amen! And before there can ever be perfect paradise without - the fond dream? - there must be a garden within!

[sheila]

 :2c:  what if..when Jesus was speaking about better for one member to perish than the whole body to be thrown into gehenna...He was speaking of Himself as

  laying down His life that all men may live?   the High Priest prophesying that it is better that one man die for thewhole nation . Or speaking of Judas..as

  picturing the son of perdition that goes into everlasting cutting off?  plucked out from amongst the body. Surely Judas priests have a problem with covetous

eyes and mammon loving..coveting/lusting for the very bride of Christ to lead them about.


    those scriptures are found true with our individual struggle in this weak flesh.[microcosm]..and on a much larger scale scripturally..as money grubbing

  power/authority coveting of those betrothed to Christ.  Seducing spirits also are pictured as eyes full of lust for another man's wife...those betrothed unto

  Christ...surely when He comes..they will find no ransom.....those He consumes with the breath of His coming.
 

[eaglesway]

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

The context doesnt seem to support that view.

[jugghead]

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

The context doesnt seem to support that view.

I really don't want to cause a debate, but I see the same thing that sheila does, and I also see it fitting in with the context of a woman, the woman being wisdom, we are either lusting after the wisdom of men (woman/Babylon)or we are seeking the wisdom of God. (woman/Jerusalem/ our mother)

Christ is the right eye (single eye) He is the right hand (of the Father) ..... Christ is speaking about those who do not know what to believe, for it is better to be cut off from Christ (remaining in the world) than it is to go head strong into a religious mindset which results in death ....... hell being the place of the dead.

and we are committing adultery with the wisdom of men against the wisdom of God, being intimate with man's wisdom rather than God's wisdom ...... not that we sleep with our mother (the way the flesh might think) but that in her (God's wisdom) we find rest.

my  :2c:

[sheila]

  :thumbsup: yes the worthless shepherd has his right eye plucked out and right arm withered.

[jugghead]

also, that the mind of Christ (mind's eye/single eye) and the works of Christ (right hand) are stumbling blocks to those who are young/immature in understanding.

[Dandelion]

I think simply, this verse is saying that sin begins not in the flesh, but in the mind, heart, and soul, first.

It gradually gets a hold on us, until we actually commit the act, in the flesh.

But, the sin begins long before. If we didn't continually entertain it, it would never get accomplished, in the flesh.

So, sin is not the act, in itself, but the yearning for what we cannot or should not have or do. It is the apple in the Garden of Eden, over and over again.

Eve didn't run over and bite the apple, without first thinking of the effects and the options that could occur. She yearned to know the knowledge that was forbidden her. She played with the thoughts of it, first. This might have been coming to fuition for a long time.

So, Jesus is telling us, by the time the act comes into the flesh, you have already sinned. You 'fed' your own will, instead of seeking God's.

And that my friends, is exactly what sin is.

It is choosing to wander in the darkness, rather than seek out and remain in the light.

I think Jesus is saying to us.....always stay in the light. Don't let your mind take you down the 'dark' roads of evil.

D.

[marie glen]

I was rereading through this thread..

James says that the tongue is a fire

I think Jesus is warning about the natural consequence of sin having a contagious and destructive affect on one's self if left unaddressed.

...that is how I understand the seriousness of the message without correlating it to the gruesome doctrine of hell.

Amen Seth! "a contagious and destructive affect" - the tongue is a fire! Can start a mighty blaze.. and set ones course on fire..

When men do not wait to hear what this passion is to be used for, they run with it and use it to make themselves look righteous in the eyes of others rather then using it to show how righteous the Father and the Son are.

I'm not a very churched person, one of the few times I was in a church I noticed when the pastor mentioned a verse, every one was leafing through their bibles as quickly as they could.. it was a race! to see who could get to the verse first.. proving..? I was doing it right along with every one else.. and then I thought, wait a minute, I am not doing that any more..

silly humans :laughing7: (How does He have the patience? well, we know how because He is love.. :cloud9: )

[marie glen]

Amen Dandelion.. another thoughtful and thought provoking post.. I especially liked -

/19Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
            In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
            Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

And, just to be enveloped in His plan for us, which is where we will find most fulfillment and meaning.... and be our truest, most loving, and grounded selves.

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure

D.

    :cloud9:

I think simply, this verse is saying that sin begins not in the flesh, but in the mind, heart, and soul, first.

It gradually gets a hold on us, until we actually commit the act, in the flesh.

But, the sin begins long before. If we didn't continually entertain it, it would never get accomplished, in the flesh.

So, sin is not the act, in itself, but the yearning for what we cannot or should not have or do. It is the apple in the Garden of Eden, over and over again.

Eve didn't run over and bite the apple, without first thinking of the effects and the options that could occur. She yearned to know the knowledge that was forbidden her. She played with the thoughts of it, first. This might have been coming to fuition for a long time.

So, Jesus is telling us, by the time the act comes into the flesh, you have already sinned. You 'fed' your own will, instead of seeking God's.

And that my friends, is exactly what sin is.

It is choosing to wander in the darkness, rather than seek out and remain in the light.

I think Jesus is saying to us.....always stay in the light. Don't let your mind take you down the 'dark' roads of evil.

D.

Amen!!  :thumbsup:

[MHz]

I'm inclined to take it to mean the figurative whole body is everybody you know and should one or more fall into sin that they have no intention of giving up should be shunned as much as possible (1 Cor:5) You end up getting the same punishment if that distance is not there when the 7th trump sounds. Conversion is a task Jesus does a lot better than even the best believer can do and our efforts push more people away than it gathers. Your faith automatically covers family members and strangers are gathered by Jesus at the proper time. The ones not alive at the start of the 1,000 years are alive by the end of that era so whatever you pluck out can be put back in. Bread with all the leaven removed so to speak.