Lake of fire?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: PM

[Seth]

I have this view, and I'm not sure if it's accurate, but it's a mixture of Preterism and ... something else. xD Basically, it's an option that makes a lot of sense to me. I view Preterism as a highly likely scenario, including the belief that Christ returned spiritually in 70 AD. This describes those being made alive in in 1 Cor. 15 at his come, that are his. But then, it goes onto say, "then comes the end" when Christ should be putting all enemies under his feet and destroying death and becoming "all in all". I hold it as extremely reasonable to say that while much of prophesy has already been fulfilled, God is still filling Himself through mankind (in this life or the next) to be all in all.

I don't discount the importance of 70AD, I just think it is often given more importance as a physical act, and as it being the end point of the prophecies among preterists. For reasons described, I still believe Christ is fulfilling the prophets and his prophecy of return, daily.

All people are "saved". But only in the sense that their assurance has already been made, in Christ, and so when somebody accepts Christ they are "saved" in that they realize their salvation (in their being saved, or loosed from their isns).

I am glad you clarify that, because I agree with what you are saying pertaining to the idea that all are saved IN THE SENSE that it is a gift that they will be. It's sort of like how all things are submitted to Christ, but we don't yet see that manifested yet, via Hebrews 2.

This isn't to say that we're all perfect yet, including those that believe they are saved. I mean, we still seem to be in sin, so I could easily see Christ still yet to do work in us. But the one thing that seems very real to me, is the idea that no matter who we are, whether believer or unbeliever, we will all completely come into the fullness of life in Christ, after we physically die and are raised in spirit. Now... this last part, I base mostly on NDEs, but I don't see any reason why they couldn't be real, nor that it should disagree with Christ destroying death and being all in all. I largely see humanity's sin linked with our physical nature, and so, a spiritual resurrection from the dead seems to be the most logical way for Christ to vivify us and make us alive in Him. In being raised alive spiritually, in Christ, we become perfect and complete in Him (something which wasn't formerly possible before he rose from the dead).

I pretty much agree, that the process of being delivered from sin begins with being born again, but that born children must then grow, and that is why it is a Gospel of a promise both delivered and hoped for, that we look to our ultimate perfecting and shall recieve it (Romans 8).  :thumbsup:



[/quote]

[Tim B]

But the one thing that seems very real to me, is the idea that no matter who we are, whether believer or unbeliever, we will all completely come into the fullness of life in Christ, after we physically die and are raised in spirit.

It is a proven fact, that all human beings will eventually experience this phenomenon called death.
This flesh profits nothing, in and of, itself. Thus, at what point does the soul/body come alive?

If the Spirit quickens; giving life, is it on the third-day, after death?

I largely see humanity's sin linked with our physical nature, and so, a spiritual resurrection from the dead seems to be the most logical way for Christ to vivify us and make us alive in Him. In being raised alive spiritually, in Christ, we become perfect and complete in Him (something which wasn't formerly possible before he rose from the dead).

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (that of the flesh, itself), rather, having the faith of Christ toward God and the Resurrection.  :gthumbsup: 

The whole of humanity will comprehend the significance of the Resurrection, in the day of their judgment.
Which is now, in this life or later; upon death.

"All will come to the knowledge of the truth, each in their own era."

peacemaker

Thanks for encouraging comments! I just hope all of this is true! :yes:

BTW: is that last quote from scripture?

[peacemaker]

But the one thing that seems very real to me, is the idea that no matter who we are, whether believer or unbeliever, we will all completely come into the fullness of life in Christ, after we physically die and are raised in spirit.

It is a proven fact, that all human beings will eventually experience this phenomenon called death.
This flesh profits nothing, in and of, itself. Thus, at what point does the soul/body come alive?

If the Spirit quickens; giving life, is it on the third-day, after death?

I largely see humanity's sin linked with our physical nature, and so, a spiritual resurrection from the dead seems to be the most logical way for Christ to vivify us and make us alive in Him. In being raised alive spiritually, in Christ, we become perfect and complete in Him (something which wasn't formerly possible before he rose from the dead).

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (that of the flesh, itself), rather, having the faith of Christ toward God and the Resurrection.  :gthumbsup: 

The whole of humanity will comprehend the significance of the Resurrection, in the day of their judgment.
Which is now, in this life or later; upon death.

"All will come to the knowledge of the truth, each in their own era."

Thanks for encouraging comments! I just hope all of this is true! :yes:

BTW: is that last quote from scripture?

Paraphrased, but very real to me. :smile:

[Lupac]

Hey, I'm not sure if this belongs in this topic or not, but I have a question. What exactly is Jesus saying here?

Matthew 7:21-23 NASB:

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

What is he saying? It's been used by a lot of ETers as proof of a never ending hell. Thanks.

[Seth]

Well first of all, where did Jesus either say or imply "never ending" or "hell" in that particular verse? Do we rely on the words, or assumptions about the words?

[Lupac]

You're right. It's hard to get over everything I've been taught. I'm working on it. Thanks.

[Seth]

I know how it is. I've been there too.

But eventually, you will be faced with a decision, or you will forever be drifting between, which makes for much wavering and uncertainty.

But until you are ready to decide, you are doing the right thing to verify.

[Lupac]

Oh, I've already decided. I AM a universalist. I could never go back to being an ETer. I'm going through Ray Smith's Lake of Fire series right now. I can see so much truth in it. The thing I really waver on, is "Does God, as presented in the Bible, exist or not?", but I'm not here to talk about that.

[Seth]

Ray is a great one to read. I have links to his material on my site because he breaks it down so well and in such great detail. Well, again, I have been where you are at: acceptance, the decision made, yet questions, so many. Give it time. The only way I can explain it is it just takes time to grow into it. Most people never even make it to where you are at right now. It's too painful.

[martincisneros]

The thing I really waver on, is "Does God, as presented in the Bible, exist or not?", but I'm not here to talk about that.

I think I've gone through many seasons of that this decade, though thankfully I can't recall those seasons being more than a few hours at a time here and there.  As you're digging through the Bible for all of the parameters and His methodology regarding the Universal Restoration as a consequence of sowing and reaping, then you inevitably go through a cleansing/purging process where the God in the Bible and the one you'd heard of since you were minutes old that's there for people every time but the last time, who in the end is only as faithful as you were, and who you can really count on if He can really count on you starts to come into more Biblical balances.

There are overcomer rewards for diligently clinging to the Promises of His Word and Spirit to the end, but though a dwelling in a walled city not redeemed in the same year can't be reclaimed in Jubilee, there's nothing about the Biblical balance of things that implies that that means no future ages of visitation, that you've permanently lost out on His original intentions, or any kind of nonsense inherent in the ET & Left Behind paradigms of the like.  You're coming into balance on Who in the heck He really is and as a consequence, who in the heck you're really supposed to be, who's you're supposed to be, et. al.

As Paula White has preached on television before "His original intention is His final decision."  Winds up being the loftiness of that Biblical principle and the impossibility of your circumstances that at your core you're more likely disbelieving on how He could ever conform your life to Himself -- not that there's a whole lot of doubt of Him, necessarily, but what the angel asked in Psalm 8 "what is man that Thou art mindful of him?" is what starts to really mess with you when you see His glory, majesty, power, love, wisdom, and intents that'll abide to the ages of ages [and beyond] what they've always been. Doubt's always deceptive on who and what you're specifically doubting. It's a disgusting emotion to have to press through the fog about to the sureness of His original intentions.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Lupac --  :happygrin:

Glad to hear that you are a decided believer in the Salvation of ALL!  :gimmefive:

Oh, I've already decided. I AM a universalist. I could never go back to being an ETer. I'm going through Ray Smith's Lake of Fire series right now. I can see so much truth in it.

Though I replied early in this thread, I have not been around to discuss this subject (in which I find GREAT interest). 

I will be reading it through, and either commenting on specific replies or in general... I think L. Ray Smith has some very good things to say in his "Lake of Fire" series... although, might I say that I do not agree with everything he says --  :shakepoint:

I suggest that as you read his commentaries (which are for the most part, very good), keep in mind that like the rest of us, ...Ray doesn't "know it all"  :laughing7:

I'll get back to you on this one... I am sure there have been many good comments in the discussion...  :cloud9:

PS... Hi brother Seth!  :friendstu:

:Peace:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[Lupac]

I think you looked into the short sentence I wrote a little too much, as far as who I'm supposed to be. IDK, I want to believe. I guess I have some "perceived" problems with the Bible. I've never had any kind of religious experience to speak of. I've prayed my whole life, but I don't think I've ever really felt Him, other than extreme remorse when I've done something wrong. All my belief in the past has been based on fear, of God and of hell.

I... don't want to do bad things, I want to be moral. But that last paragraph you wrote hit home. I've asked myself that many times, and the best answer I could come up with is "We are made by him, so he wants to save us, the same way we, if we could truly create something, would want to save them." But I don't know what God's long term plan is. I worry sometimes that maybe there isn't a God in the sense that He made this place, then forgot about us to do something else, or something. I don't know. I'm not here to bash the Scripture, but there are so many things I want to know.

Note to willieH: I don't agree with everything L Ray Simtherrd, err, Smith has to say.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Lupac...  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

I am not completely sure you are addressing me or not... but in part below, you mentioned my name, so...

I think you looked into the short sentence I wrote a little too much, as far as who I'm supposed to be. IDK, I want to believe.

I did not "look into" anything, brother Lupac...

It was YOU which PLAINLY stated:

Oh, I've already decided. I AM a universalist. I could never go back to being an ETer.

Are you hereby retracting YOUR OWN words? :dunno:

I merely commended a "DECISION",  which was plainly STATED as MADE by YOU -- in your own words...  :dontknow:  

You would not even "want" to believe, if it wasn't a calling within you...  God does not need you to have a Bible in your hand to "call you" to it -- by creating the desire within YOU to do so...

I guess I have some "perceived" problems with the Bible. I've never had any kind of religious experience to speak of. I've prayed my whole life, but I don't think I've ever really felt Him, other than extreme remorse when I've done something wrong.

Being called to believe the truth --

(1) does not involve a "RELGIOUS experience"
(2) does not involve "feelings"  

But DOES involve remorse [repentence] for wrongdoing...

That you have "percieved problems" with the Bible is a very vague statement... Such as -- Are you saying there are parts of it that you do not accept?  Or that you have a problem accepting these parts, as inspired?  Or that you think its words have been tampered with beyond the control of God to communicate Himself to us?   :wacko2:

All my belief in the past has been based on fear, of God and of hell.

You continue to be vague and confusing brother, ...you say you have had no "religious experience", yet you are fearful, and lend creedence to God and Hell?  What would you label as "your experience"?  

IMO -- RELIGION does not equate to having SPIRITUAL INSPIRATION or pursuit of truth... It is a practiced ceremonial agenda.  But MOST people (not to include me), note the pursuit of GOD in ones life, as a "religious experience"... Do you see what I mean?

Just so you know, ...I believe it is "RELIGION" and its "experience" which opposes the TRUTH.  :declare:

I can understand a given person being fearful of God... for Christianity (as well as other RELIGIONS) has FALSELY painted that picture of HIM, to the world.  

But as I questioned you previously... Of those who LOVE you, how many of them are you FEARFUL of?  

Is it your perception that -- "FEAR" of a BULLY on a playground -- or "FEAR" of Nuclear threats to your country --- are things proceeding from a foundation of LOVE?

If NOT... then GOD, who IS LOVE ITSELF -- 1 John 4:8 -- cannot be REASONABLY be coupled with such.  :faint:

GOD is a GOD of REASON... and anyone that has had an experience with LOVE, knows that FEAR is not a portion of a LOVING  relationship... if FEAR IS present within the relationship...

Then LOVE in its TRUE SENSE is not that which is being experienced.   :dontknow: -- for PERFECT  [GOD-type] LOVE -- CASTS OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:18 -- GOD is LOVE = LOVE casts OUT FEAR

I... don't want to do bad things, I want to be moral.

John 1:9 -- notes that CHRIST "lights" EVERY man that enters the world.  There is an embedded portion of Him in you which causes such a desire, Lupac.

But that last paragraph you wrote hit home. I've asked myself that many times, and the best answer I could come up with is "We are made by him, so he wants to save us, the same way we, if we could truly create something, would want to save them." But I don't know what God's long term plan is. I worry sometimes that maybe there isn't a God in the sense that He made this place, then forgot about us to do something else, or something. I don't know. I'm not here to bash the Scripture, but there are so many things I want to know.

Patience is the by-word of FAITH... It is a thing that must WAIT...  It is a thing which must GROW with TIME...  TRUTH comes to the PATIENT and DILIGENT seeker which desires the WHOLE HEART to be utilized in finding it -- Jer 29:14 -- that that WHOLE HEART might be FILLED with the LOVE and WISDOM of YHVH

About God "making something" then leaving it to "do something else":

If you "made something" which is of EXTREME value (such as the "Creation" could be considered to be)... would you just LEAVE it, and no longer bother with it?  This thinking again dear brother, is NOT aligned with REASON.

The "Salvation issue" is NOT -- about Him "making us" -- then "us blowing it" and -- then Him, "having to save us"... :rolleye:

It is about the redemption from a PURPOSED and INTENDED experience in the LIVING display of the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH God -- of GOOD and EVIL, which is BEING GIVEN to, and portrayed BY -- EACH of the Children of YHVH, that in the ENTIRETY of Himself, we would BE exactly as HE IS -- 1 Cor 15:28 -- 1 Cor 12:6

This might go past you, but I will offer it to you anyway...

We are part of the Body of CHRIST... CHRIST -- NEVER CHANGES -- and remains the SAME for EVER -- Heb 13:8 -- So WE are NOT "created" entities, we are EMERGENT entities... from within the Heart of YHVH...

MAN as a physical being is composed of 2 things...

(1) the Earth
(2) the BREATH of GOD.  

HE invests Himself in EACH of us... and we each PHYSICALLY LIVE, only as long as HIS BREATH is within us.  That "portion" of HIS BREATH which IS YOU... is a portion of HIMSELF.

YOU are not your "body" of FLESH... YOU are the portion of the BREATH [Spirit] of YHVH.

WE -- are the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of Good & Evil, as KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH God.

Because He is using His own Son's Body in this portrayal of that KNOWLEDGE (for ALL), within this manifestation, is found the REDEMPTION of that BODY, from the course of TIME which contains EVIL.

Note to willieH: I don't agree with everything L Ray Simtherrd, err, Smith has to say.

I wasn't insinuating that you did, Lupac... I was recommending to you, that as you  research L. Ray's writings -- maintain the fact that L. Ray does not know everything, and therefore his words must remain a commentary, just like any other "man's" words should be (including mine)...

Though I do not agree with all points that L. Ray makes, ...I think that his writings DO deserve a large amount of respect, due to the OBVIOUS degree of research that HE has done... As well as the majority of REASON that accompanies most of his views...

In conclusion bro... Please, try not be AFRAID of the ONE [YHVH and His CHRIST] who LOVES ...YOU... the MOST!  Respect that LOVE, and cherish it, instead.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Seth]

PS... Hi brother Seth!  :friendstu:

:Peace:

Hey bro! Haven't heard from you in a minute. Glad to see you.  :HeartThrob:

[Lupac]

Hey willie, thanks for the long reply. I'll try to make myself more clear. When I wrote:

I think you looked into the short sentence I wrote a little too much, as far as who I'm supposed to be. IDK, I want to believe.

I was addressing martin, in the second paragraph he wrote. I think I misunderstood also. I've never questioned "who I'm supposed to be" like that before. What I do question is "what is true?". That's what I'm searching for.

I wasn't trying to retract my own words, what I meant was "If I believe in the bible (Which I do.) I'm not going to go back to being an ETer."

I should have put some quotation marks around "religious experience". What I meant by that, was, you know how people say they "feel" God wanting them to do this or that. I never could understand a statement like that. Like I said before, the only thing I've "felt" was sorrow for sinning. Which I could say was just my own mind, but I don't think it is. Basically, I've never "felt" God that way other people say they do.

What I meant by "perceived problems" is mostly to do with the OT. It's not that I don't accept it, but more like accepting it as being "not inspired", or "tampered with". Such as, I've had some Jewish people tell me that the Torah was changed around when it was put in it's current form in the Bible, and that not as many sin warranted the death penalty as in the OT in the Bible. Whether or not that's true, I don't know.

For a long time, and I still do to some extent fear God as a "bully", but I would never let myself think like that, thinking I'd go to hell for it.  :bumbrage:

Again, thank you for writing. And that little thing at the end of my last post about L Ray Smith was a play on the name, L Ron Hubbard. Not that Ray Smith is anything like L Ron, his name just looked similar.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Lupac... :Peace:

Hey willie, thanks for the long reply. I'll try to make myself more clear. When I wrote:

I think you looked into the short sentence I wrote a little too much, as far as who I'm supposed to be. IDK, I want to believe.

I was addressing martin, in the second paragraph he wrote. I think I misunderstood also. I've never questioned "who I'm supposed to be" like that before. What I do question is "what is true?". That's what I'm searching for.

Sorry for misunderstanding you new brother!  And concerning my reply to you, you are welcome!  You will find that many of my replies are quite detailed, and will continue to be.   Anyone is welcome to read or not read those details, as God should lead them.

I wasn't trying to retract my own words, what I meant was "If I believe in the bible (Which I do.) I'm not going to go back to being an ETer."

That is good...  :laughing7: however...

You said that you have decided that you ARE a "Universalist", as well... and again -- if this is so... I commend that decision as well... for the Salvation of ALL -- IS -- the Gospel.

I should have put some quotation marks around "religious experience". What I meant by that, was, you know how people say they "feel" God wanting them to do this or that. I never could understand a statement like that. Like I said before, the only thing I've "felt" was sorrow for sinning. Which I could say was just my own mind, but I don't think it is. Basically, I've never "felt" God that way other people say they do.

Sometimes, the word "feeling" is misunderstood.  I believe God has purposely made us as emotional creatures... which includes the affects of those emotions in our observances of ourselves.

When one might say they "feel" God is moving them, it is more a description of their perception of the revealing presence of His LEADING --- rather than an emotional observance...  :dontknow:

Although, there are many, many "believers", which require a "LITERAL feeling"... and this is tied to their CARNAL state of prideful thinking...  We can see this in such as those who "handle poisonous snakes", or those who might credit themselves (and "their ministry") as "healers", or even those who credit themselves for their own Salvation, as they have "accepted CHRIST"...  :dontknow:

What I meant by "perceived problems" is mostly to do with the OT. It's not that I don't accept it, but more like accepting it as being "not inspired", or "tampered with". Such as, I've had some Jewish people tell me that the Torah was changed around when it was put in it's current form in the Bible, and that not as many sin warranted the death penalty as in the OT in the Bible. Whether or not that's true, I don't know.

The Jews are a predominantly BLIND people concerning God -- Rom 11:25 -- and the Spiritual observations of the WORD...

So I would not recommend investing too much creedence in ANY of their claims unless they are able to SUBSTANCIATE them. (though you are welcome to disagree with this.)

I have never seen any substanciation that the "Torah" was changed... have you?  If not, then disregard such claims unless the one making such a claim is in a position to prove that his/her claim is more than his/her words...  :dontknow:

For a long time, and I still do to some extent fear God as a "bully", but I would never let myself think like that, thinking I'd go to hell for it.  :bumbrage:

In childhood, from a child's perspective -- one might tend to look upon the LOVING intentions of a parent, who corrects the child from going out into the street as "BULLYING" them, denying their desire to be free to do what is (1) inobservant (2) uneducated (3) carries dire consequence -- etc...  :dontknow:

That GOD makes demands on us, and brings the consequences of disobedience to our "living doorstep" is exampled in the OT...

Maybe I can give you a quick look from my perspective of OT / NT

Please read 1 Cor 15:46 -- which notes DIVINE order...

The OT is 1st and in DIVINE order, is GOD dealing with MAN, in the NATURAL/TEMPORAL...

The NT is 2nd and in DIVINE order, is GOD dealing with MAN in the SPIRITUAL/ETERNAL...

OLD TESTAMENT --- In the OT -- ADAM, the Son of God --  disobeyed the COMMAND of God and with him came --  the TEMPORAL dealings between God and Man concerning EVIL -- which disobedience is SINFUL and resulted in hardship, punishments, and eventually, death... ALL these things being TEMPORAL, brought sorrow within LIFE, resulting in DEATH, and are TEMPORAL.

NEW TESTAMENT --- In the NT -- CHRIST, the Son of God -- obeyed the COMMAND of God and with Him came -- FORGIVENESS, JUSTIFICATION and FULLFILLMENT and are the on-going ETERNAL premises in God's dealings with man concerning GOOD -- which obedience was SINLESS which resulted in the revelation of His INTENT (to save us) and the FULFILLMENT of that INTENT.  The display of OBEDIENCE to His COMMAND -- brings JOY within LIFE, resulting in LIFE, and is ETERNAL.

This life is a "CLASSROOM" for all, Lupac.  God's KNOWLEDGE is a LIVING thing... therefore:

The OT is God noting in a LIVING WAY, the Negativity of the side of HIS KNOWLEDGE that is EVIL -- us IN SIN which brings DEATH -- intended to be TEMPORARY...

The NT is God noting in a LIVING WAY, the Positivity of the side of HIS KNOWLEDGE that is GOOD -- CHRIST in SINLESSNESS which brings LIFE -- intended to be PERMANENT

Both of these are opposite sides of the SAME KNOWLEDGE... rooted in the SAME TREE...

Again, thank you for writing. And that little thing at the end of my last post about L Ray Smith was a play on the name, L Ron Hubbard. Not that Ray Smith is anything like L Ron, his name just looked similar.

I see...  :winkgrin:

For anyone unfamiliar, L. Ron Hubbard was the "father" of "scientology", and a science fiction novelist...

...willieH --- (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Doug... :hithere:

I have said for quite a while, that CHRIST is the the "alpha AND omega" simulataneously... so if one wishes to gain REVELATION of the END, then one will ALWAYS find clues concerning the "end" -- at the "beginning"... IOW, the book of Revelation has explanations within Genesis, as does the book of Genesis have explanation in the Book of Revelation...  :thumbsup:

Might I preface that JESUS plainly SAID -- John 12:31 -- NOW ...is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD...

The word "NOW" reveals "when" the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD takes place.

If the LOF is here and now, this lifetime, then what of those who die in their sin?

The scriptures say when a man dies he ceases from sin, so how are these people judged after death?

I would like to take a shot at explaining this to Meefsgirl... If we take our SIN to the grave, we take the SHAME of NAKEDNESS to that grave... and when resurrection of men occurs in time (at the Last Day), then shall the SHAME of NAKEDNESS appear as one rises WITHOUT the "covering/clothing" of CHRIST -- Rev 3:18 -- this is exemplified and illustrated by Adam & Eve in the Garden, as they "stood" NAKED before GOD... and IN their SHAME (trying in futility to "cover themselves").

The LOF is called "the second death" in Rev. 21:8, which implies there has to be a resurrection. Jesus said there would be a resurrection of judgment.

Quite correct brother Doug, ...however,

(1) -- this "judgment" is NOT as perceived commonly by the church... CHRIST -- NEVER CHANGES -- Heb 13:8 -- so the manner in which He dealt with "judgment" as is noted in the WORD, shall He also "judge" in the resurrection...  :nod:

The perceptions of HELL and the "flames" of the the Lake of "FIRE" is commonly held as the method God shall use toward our disobediences on earth, however...

The WORD in no place I have found makes any such statement as: ...the wages (payment) for or of SIN is "HELL", nor is there warning to avoid HELL, nor is there any COMMAND to teach such to others. :mnah: 

The WORD in no place I have found makes any such statement as: ....the wages (payment) for or of SIN is "the Lake of FIRE" either, nor is there warning for it, nor is there any COMMAND to teach such to others. :mnah:  As well, there is no notation that says that anyone shall avoid it (LOF/2nd death),

Equating God's "judgment" as being a literal "FIRE-type", was NOT exampled in the approach that CHRIST took to "judgment" within the opportunities presented Him during His ministry here on earth, nor did He exact any such method (FIRE or torment) upon ANY MAN (or woman).

(2) -- The "list" in Rev 21:8 -- which pertains to those who shall enter the LOF and 2nd death -- is UNAVOIDABLE by ANY MAN or WOMAN.  No less than ONE (and if honesty is applied more, or ALL) of these are applicable to ALL MEN -- for ALL MEN are LIARS -- Rom 3:4 -- "every man" leaves out NO MAN.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

The KJV says "damnation," but I think it actually refers to the judgment. You can check some other translations; the NASB says judgment.

Again Doug, I believe you to be correct.  The word "judgment" might indeed contain a punishment, if no compensation were made for it... however, THAT is not the case.

We REAP what we SOW... NOW... which is WHY there are MYRIAD sorrows in this life...  We SIN, ...we recieve payment (wages) for it, ...NOW -- (during this life)

There is SHAME to be experienced in the resurrection "judgment" --- as is exemplfied by the "woman caught in adultery" --  --  She was exposed for her deed before men, and of course before God, but when "JUDGMENT" came for that misbehavior, NO man was ABLE to accuse her, and when the opportunity was left to HIM, nor did CHRIST accuse her either... 

The REVEALING of CHRIST tells us the procedure, yet most IGNORE it for they (in their vain self-righteousness) SEEK and PROCLAIM others to be "punished" by God, while conveniently, ESCAPING "punishment" themselves!

Participation in SIN exposes SPIRITUAL NAKEDNESS (see Gen 3:7 + Gen 3:8-11) -- as it REVEALS oneself as transgressing the WORD and COMMAND of God, and therefore shall stand, NAKED BEFORE IT.

Rev 3:18 -- I counsel the to buy of ME -- GOLD tried [past tense] in FIRE [this life] that thou mayest be RICH, and WHITE RAIMENT [clothing or covering] that thou mayest be CLOTHED, and that the SHAME OF THY NAKEDNESS do NOT APPEAR, and ANNOINT thine eyes with EYE SALVE [truth] that thou mayest -- SEE

In this verse several things are noted concerning "facing the music", bro

(1)  If one does not BELIEVE in and embrace the GOLD of CHRIST's life [which shall abide the FIRE (in this life) -- 1 Cor 3:12-13 one shall enter the resurrection -- "SPIRITUALLY" POOR

(2)  If one does not "put on CHRIST" via FAITH, then one shall be exposed in ones NAKEDNESS, and suffer His SHAME (not "literal" FIRE)

(3)  If one does not "annoint" ones EYES with this TRUTH (by diligently seeking with the WHOLE HEART -- Jer 29:14), then one shall NOT SEE that truth, and their observations will be about SELFISHNESS.  And NOT in  alignment with the STATED -- WILL of GOD (that SO LOVED THE WORLD) -- that NONE PERISH.

Isaiah said there will be a time when knowledge of God fills the earth, as water covers the sea.

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Jeremiah said the word of God is like fire; also Jesus said he came to "send fire on the earth." [Jer. 23:29; Luke 12:49]

Good point... JESUS stated in Luke 12:49 that He had come TO SEND FIRE on the earth, noting subliminally that it had ALREADY been "kindled"...

Also Jeremiah said that GOD's WORD is LIKE a FIRE... (not a literal fire)... for its "FIRE" when beheld, CONSUMES lies and falsehood, by the power of TRUTH.  Just as it is BUSY DOING in ALL which UNCOMPROMISINGLY seek GOD and HIS WORD, in the present.

If John used Isaiah's metaphor of waters of the sea, and combined it with the metaphor of fire, mentioned by Jeremiah and Jesus, he would very likely get the idea of a "lake of fire," which is a metaphor representing the purging and purification that must be connected with the judgment. In Rev. 7:14 John refers to the judgment as "great tribulation." The knowledge of God will probably feel a bit like "fire" to the wicked.

When anyone is EXPOSED in a LIE, is there "tribulation" in that exposure?  Of course there is...

GOD is said to be "good and SEVERE" in Scripture -- Rom 11:22 -- as well as GREAT and TERRIBLE -- Joel 2:31 -- I shall not argue that. 

But what I shall do is state that "CHRISTIANITY", (IMO) erroneously looks past the present (lake of FIRE we are amidst) to FEARFULLY find these things... :rolleye:

FAILING to "annoint" their eyes with "EYESALVE" so that they might SEE -- "looking" forward to and PREACHING to the WORLD, a "FEARED" JUDGMENT to come, where GOD is seen to be SEVERE, and where He is seen to be TERRIBLE...

All the while this is "proposed by them to be -- GOOD NEWS"?  :mshock:  Christianity is one of the most decieved entities in the WORLD, concerning TRUTH. 

Bringing BAD NEWS to the WORLD, about the GOD that -- "SO LOVED IT", and gave His SON FOR IT!

I maintain that His SEVERITY is NOW... What is CANCER?  Or AIDS?  Or flu's which go unimpeded? How about HEART DISEASE? DIABETES? Or the MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS?  What about DRUG ADDICTION?  DIVORCE?  POVERTY?  WORLDWIDE FAMINE?  Are these NOT........... "severe"?  :dontknow: :rolleye:

I maintain He is seen as "TERRIBLE" within such as TSUNAMI's!  HURRICANES!  TORNADO'S!  EARTHQUAKES!  Have you ever experienced any of these?  I HAVE, and can tell you THEY are ALL quite -- TERRIBLE!  The wrath of the NATURAL EARTH, is more FEARFUL and can make one feel TOTALLY INSIGNIFICANT and HELPLESS before it.

Is GOD not within these events?  Does their POWER come from ELSEWHERE?

Those who have ears to hear, shall hear...

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[Zeek]

Gen 6:7  And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:9  These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen 6:12  And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Gen 6:13  And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 6:17  And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.


Gen 6:18  But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Gen 7:1  And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Gen 7:4  For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Joh 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Gen 7:23  And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Gen 6:20  Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Gen 6:22  Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.


Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[WhiteWings]

Hey, I'm not sure if this belongs in this topic or not, but I have a question. What exactly is Jesus saying here?

Matthew 7:21-23 NASB:

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

What is he saying? It's been used by a lot of ETers as proof of a never ending hell. Thanks.

Lupac,
Did you notice the tense? They are still practicing lawlessness.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi  Zzzzzzzz :eek:... :hithere:

I have always found this interesting, and ATHIESTS LOVE to point out what I note below:

Gen 6:7  And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:9  These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen 6:12  And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Gen 6:13  And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

(1)  God was talking to NOAH, who was PART of "ALL FLESH" which was noted as "corrupted"...

(2)  "ALL FLESH" did NOT END... for NOAH (and his fam were PART of "ALL FLESH", and were also PART of "ALL FLESH" that was stated as CORRUPT), ...survived the "destruction" --  :dontknow:

What I say to ATHIESTS about this type of dialogue -- is that NOAH (part of ALL FLESH) -- did DIE -- Gen 9:29 -- so in this view, the END of ALL FLESH did come before Him (end from beginning), and is thereby resolved within this stated vision of YHVH -- even though NOAH was spared death from the FLOOD, and though he did find GRACE in the eyes of the Lord, ...he STILL ...eventually -- DIED...

Gen 6:17  And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Again, there is more to this than meets the eye, for NOAH was a man of FLESH and was NOT destroyed... and EVERY THING that was "in the earth" (and had the "breath of life") did NOT DIE, for many, many pairs of animals were also spared from death in the FLOOD.

Gen 6:18  But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Gen 7:1  And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Gen 7:4  For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Again, the word EVERY is out of place in this statement...

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Again, "EVERY creeping thing" did NOT Die... NEITHER did ALL FLESH... neither did EVERY MAN, die... :dunno:

Another interesting statement as made by CHRIST, that you have provided:

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

CHRIST could not have meant "NEVER"... for even He Himself, ...DIED... as have ALL that have "believed" upon Him...

Furthermore, Scripture notes -- Heb 9:27 -- it is APPOINTED unto men once to DIE...

So this Scripture disagrees with the English terminology of "NEVER"... (which means -- not at ANY TIME)... 

...The Scripture cannot be BROKEN -- John 10:35

hmmmmmmm  :JCThink:

I percieve that He meant, that their lives were preserved in HIS LIFE... and that even though they had to face the WAGES OF SIN, and their individual  Scriptural "appointment" with DEATH... that those which are IN CHRIST, means that even though they DIE, ...IN HIM -- they LIVE...

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[Zeek]

I appreciate your perceptions Willie and your overall message of LOVE.  I personally have a different view at this time re: "flesh, and death", but am open to change.  I am thankful for the awareness that no perception is truth, but only points to the unchanging TRUTH.

My perception of what "all flesh" is different from yours; and don't  see "all flesh that dies" as referring to literal death, ie: Gen 9 for Noah, and that literal death being the wages for sin.

what do u think of these verses, and how do they fit in with your ideas:

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


thanks

z

[WhiteWings]

Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

[Zeek]

Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

imo, yes

[Barry DuPont]

Can "never die" be about the second death (LoF)?

Yes.
"never die" or "never see death" related to the end of the old covenant creature.
That meaning then "become a new creature before you die as an old creature (lake of fire), in the "end of all things".

Also "you shall die in your sins" was the same thing. Not physical death as such (as a definition) but covenant death.

"Sin no more lest a worse thing happen to you" means "follow me so you will not be hurt by the second death" (lake of fire).

It related to legacy and reproach in this life, and not what most of christendom has framed as eternal security.

Barry