Tentmaker Forum

In my continuing quest to find the truth of the matter, whether or not Hell will triumph, and drag down every last man, woman, and child who never heard Christ's name and accepted it into Eternal Damnation the likes of which can scarcely be imagined, let alone loved...I began discussing Universal Reconciliation with a good friend of mine, a wonderful Christian fellow who is very faithful, but who is a believer in Everlasting Hell's doctrine (despite his sorrow over it, and understanding of my sorrow over it too).

He offered...a verse, after I began to talk with him about "aion";

John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I'll admit now that there are some things about UR vs. ET that have unlocked some deeper emotions and bitter thoughts recently, right now though I am walking around in a confusing fog about what to fully believe concerning this.  

I said to my friend, after I felt defeated, and seeing what seemed like irrefutable proof that Hell will basically win the numbers game; "The yoke of Christ has become very heavy".  It is a strange feeling, going from elation, joy, and hope (though kept in check, just incase while I investigate its truthfulness), to wanting to cry, and saying in your heart - and feeling very rebellious in saying so;

"If Lazarus can not, or will not cross the gulf, then I will try, or I will do it instead!"

But anyway, does anyone have an answer to the verse?

Quote from: Lefein on August 04, 2010, 09:22:32 PM
In my continuing quest to find the truth of the matter, whether or not Hell will triumph, and drag down every last man, woman, and child who never heard Christ's name and accepted it into Eternal Damnation the likes of which can scarcely be imagined, let alone loved...I began discussing Universal Reconciliation with a good friend of mine, a wonderful Christian fellow who is very faithful, but who is a believer in Everlasting Hell's doctrine (despite his sorrow over it, and understanding of my sorrow over it too).

He offered...a verse, after I began to talk with him about "aion";

John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I'll admit now that there are some things about UR vs. ET that have unlocked some deeper emotions and bitter thoughts recently, right now though I am walking around in a confusing fog about what to fully believe concerning this.  

I said to my friend, after I felt defeated, and seeing what seemed like irrefutable proof that Hell will basically win the numbers game; "The yoke of Christ has become very heavy".  It is a strange feeling, going from elation, joy, and hope (though kept in check, just incase while I investigate its truthfulness), to wanting to cry, and saying in your heart - and feeling very rebellious in saying so;

"If Lazarus can not, or will not cross the gulf, then I will try, or I will do it instead!"

But anyway, does anyone have an answer to the verse?

I think I may have the answers. Recently God gave me some mind blowing revelation. But it is a type of revelation that can grow into a entire new doctrine, it is that big. I looked at it and see if other pieces fit and they do, so the revelation brings further pieces into the puzzle. It's amazing that the body has not had this plain revelation. I'm not sure what do with it though or where to begin, so if you want to know pm me, warning it is very strong meat though, grizzly bear type stake :laughing7: Bit to strong to post here.and I don't want to propose this unless it has been tried so to speak.

You may PM your answer if that is alright with you.  As for meat, I'm a theological carnivore you might say. ;)

Everlasting=age-during

More click here and searcg for John 3:36 (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/source/Bible%20Threatenings%20Explained.htm)

Quote from: Lefein on August 04, 2010, 09:54:16 PM
You may PM your answer if that is alright with you.  As for meat, I'm a theological carnivore you might say. ;)

:cloud9: I like that answer, Lefein.....I'm with you.  :thumbsup:

Yeah, you can easily dispute their claim . . .nowhere in this verse does it indicate hell.  Because men's minds see everything from a fallen state, it's the mind that immediately assumes wrath is eternal hell.  That's not what it's saying at all.  But then again, only faith can open one's eyes to see the freedom beyond the verse.

All it says if you don't beleive in Christ, you remain spiritually blind.  You can't "see". and it doesn't say you'll experience the wrath of God . . .it's saying that as long as you continue to walk in your blindness, everything you do see will be through judgment.  Everything will "appear" to be the wrath of God because that's all that's in you that you "can" see.

Getting saved is not about going to heaven or hell . .it's about being able to "see" the kingdom.  Did I just make that up?  For those who choose to adhere only to what's written, here's a passifier for ya.

John 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

and again several verses later
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

It's not that people aren't born again, the question is, born into what?  Religion?  Doctrine?  That's why I see where Jesus stated "Just because you call out "Lord, Lord" doesn't guarentee you the kingdom of heaven . ..same language.

Matthew 7
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

I was raised to beleive that verse meant no one really will ever know for sure whether or not they're saved.  That couldn't be further from the truth.  What it "does" tell me is that just because people "think" they're godly, doesn't mean they can "see" spiritual truths.

He goes on to say that he'll tell them "Depart from me, I never knew you . . ."  which is another passage used and abused for supporting the hell doctrine.  Their hung up on the "depart from me" when they "really" should be focussing in on "I never knew you".  Because that would indicate that you can operate in ministry and still not know Christ.  That's always a sobering thought.  We get really good at doing the wrong thing that we become calloused for correction from the Spirit.

Departing from God has a purpose just like anything else.  Sit in the dark long enough and you'll be getting hungry for the sun to come back.  It's never been about punishment, it's always been about restoration.  Darkness is not restoration, it's the process God uses to bring us "in" to restoration.

These are some very good answers, especially yours Nathan.  Though, I'd like to still hear what others can provide in this discussion if that is alright. :)

The best assurance of good research, is good sources, and many of them.

John 3:36 "The one habitually trusting (continuously believing) into the Son is constantly holding (progressively having) eonian life (life having the characteristics and qualities of the sphere of the ages; age-durative life; eon-lasting life; life whose source is the Age).  Yet the one continuing being unpersuaded by the Son (being constantly incompliant, disobedient or disbelieving to the Son; being repeatedly stubborn toward the Son) will not catch site of (see; observe; perceive) [this] life.  To the contrary, God's inherent fervor (passion; mental bent and natural impulse; propensity and disposition; wrath) is continuously remaining (habitually dwelling and abiding) upon him."    (Jonathan Mitchell  N.T.Translation)

 :cloud9: Good post, Nate......Willie, I think it was, talked at length on revelation about the "wrath" of God.....maybe he'll chime in here, too......

Quote from: Lefein on August 04, 2010, 11:23:27 PM
These are some very good answers, especially yours Nathan.  Though, I'd like to still hear what others can provide in this discussion if that is alright. :)

The best assurance of good research, is good sources, and many of them.

Hi Lefein,

I see you got some good answers already.  I posted this on another board, but it might be more useful here.  Perhaps it will provide a more "technical" proof you are looking for.

--

Perhaps this explanation will make sense to you: Its "eonian life", not "eternal life": life relating to eons. It comes from the Greek, transliterated as aions/aionios. This is different than immortality. This is from the concordant literal version (check the Greek if you wish, you will see the concordant literal is a word for word accurate translation):

John 3:16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian.

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him."

1 John 3:15 Everyone who is hating his brother is a man-killer [murderer], and you are aware that no man-killer at all has life eonian remaining in him.

This is the important verse that defines what eonian life is about:
John 17:3 Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ.

So these verses taken together we see what eonian life is. It is not the popularized concept of living forever (AKA eternal life) or immortality. Note: We will also receive immortality, but that is not what eonian life is. Do not confuse eonian life with immortality. Eonian life can be thought of as life during a certain period of time - living for the eons. In fact many people are physically alive right now but they are spiritually dead. They do not have eonian life.

John 17:3 tells us specifically what eonian life is: its to know God and Jesus Christ. Those who know God will do His commandments: that is, to Love God and Love one another and your enemies.
1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

Remember: eonian life is to know God and do His commands to love one another.  Further confirmation:
1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

Actually go read all of 1 John carefully, several times if necessary.  You will see how it all ties together:
eonian life = knowing God during the eons = doing His commands = loving God and one another (even enemies)


Its interesting that no murderer has eonian life. Yet we know that murderers can be saved. Saul/Paul was probably the biggest murderer of the time, yet He was converted in an instant and thus received eonian life at the moment of His conversion. He knew God at that moment. Knowing God is important. Eventually all will know God, but not all know God in the oncoming eons.

We should realize then in John 3:16 that Jesus is not promising immortality for those that believe. He is promising eonian life - knowing God and living during the eons. Those who believe will know God - and they will love God and one another.

So then we come to John 3:36, which admittedly is a favorite of those who wish to promote eternal torment. But what is it really talking about? Again: eonian life. If you do not believe in Christ - you reject Christ - you will not have eonian life. Simply this means if you don't believe in Christ and what He did and follow His commands, you do not have eonain life - you do not know God and Christ. Just like a murderer does not know God - because He does not Love.

John 3:36 also does not distinguish when one has rejected Christ. Quite obviously many people have rejected Christ before coming to believe in Him. In fact all people did not believe in Christ before they came to believe in Him. If we take a literal understanding of this verse, then we conclude that none of us will see "eternal life" because we all rejected Christ at one point (before we believed). But John 3:36 is speaking of the present. If you believe in God, you have eonian life (know God). But If you are stubborn, then you shall not be seeing eonian life, and the indignation of God (wrath) is remaining on you (right now).

Its interesting the concordant literal version uses the word "stubborn" in John 3:36. As we see elsewhere it is God who locks people up in their stubbornness:

Romans 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.

So again unless you want to take the position that God locks people into eternal hell, we should realize what this is really saying. God is sovereign - He is in control. If you are stubborn (like being stubborn against Christ in John 3:36) - it is because God has locked you in that stubbornness (as all have been). Yet Romans 11:32 further tells us He does this so that He should be merciful to all - later.


So we see that John 3:36 does not conflict with the good news of the salvation of all souls. Be well...

willieH: Hi Lefein... :hithere:

Quote from: Lefein on August 04, 2010, 09:22:32 PM
In my continuing quest to find the truth of the matter, whether or not Hell will triumph, and drag down every last man, woman, and child who never heard Christ's name and accepted it into Eternal Damnation the likes of which can scarcely be imagined, let alone loved...I began discussing Universal Reconciliation with a good friend of mine, a wonderful Christian fellow who is very faithful, but who is a believer in Everlasting Hell's doctrine (despite his sorrow over it, and understanding of my sorrow over it too).

He offered...a verse, after I began to talk with him about "aion";

John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

When one "believes" and lives in the FAITH of JESUS CHRIST, the wrath of GOD is not resting upon them... the LOVE of GOD has replaced "wrath"...  This does not mean that you shall not REAP what you have SOWN... it means you shall not further SOW unto the nature of the flesh, and thus suffer "wrath"... rather you shall REAP of the SPIRIT, LIFE in the KINGDOM of God, NOW!

Until one gains the REVELATION of the LOVE of CHRIST within (the WORD of GOD becomes ALIVE in them, instead of the fleshly nature), one shall continue to gravitate to the nature of the FLESH, and the WRATH of GOD ...IS... (not will be) REVEALED against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness OF MEN, who (during their moments in the fleshly nature) HOLD the TRUTH (which is CHRIST -- John 14:6) in unrighteousness -- Rom 1:18 -- which is produced by the NATURE of the FLESH.

QuoteI'll admit now that there are some things about UR vs. ET that have unlocked some deeper emotions and bitter thoughts recently, right now though I am walking around in a confusing fog about what to fully believe concerning this.

Give yourself time bro... God does not change us in this life all at once... it is a progression...    

QuoteI said to my friend, after I felt defeated, and seeing what seemed like irrefutable proof that Hell will basically win the numbers game; "The yoke of Christ has become very heavy".  It is a strange feeling, going from elation, joy, and hope (though kept in check, just incase while I investigate its truthfulness), to wanting to cry, and saying in your heart - and feeling very rebellious in saying so;

"If Lazarus can not, or will not cross the gulf, then I will try, or I will do it instead!"

But anyway, does anyone have an answer to the verse?

I totally agree with CARD, ...Nathan has given you an excellent answer to this, especially pointing out that "HELL" does not even appear in the verse! -- :nod:

If you should have further discussion with him, you can inform your friend that it is ASSUMPTION that HELL is alluded to in this Scripture, , and is ABSENT from it.   :dontknow:

WillieH and Nathan UUUUUUM GOOD!  :happygrin:

 :cloud9: Amen to that, Micah  :thumbsup: Lots of new wine being poured around here.....