"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" (KJV)
"Afraid are the sinners in Zion, quivering holds the polluted. Who is telling you of the devouring fire? Who is telling you of the glowings eonian?" (CLV)
As we can see, the Concordant Literal Version sounds a lot less threatening. Is the KJV talking about an eternal hell hole in this verse? What does this verse mean in the CLV?
Read it in context. Why are they burning and who is burning them?
Perhaps one of my biggest pet peeves is hasty generalizations.
10 "Now will I arise," says the LORD.
"Now will I be exalted;
now will I be lifted up.
11 You conceive chaff,
you give birth to straw;
your breath is a fire that consumes you.
12 The peoples will be burned as if to lime;
like cut thornbushes they will be set ablaze."
13 You who are far away, hear what I have done;
you who are near, acknowledge my power!
14 The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless:
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"
It is not endless burnings, how long does chaff and straw burn for? It burns for as long as there remains chaff and straw. Notice that a rebellious nation continues to give birth to straw and conceives chaff. Until this rebellious nation stops feeding the fire, they will by their own continual action, burn. Who can dwell with consuming fire? Who of us can dwell in everlasting burning? None. So they must make a choice, step out of the fire, stop feeding the fire, and do what is right. When they do what is right, they will recognize what arrogant people they once were, and they will recognize the obscure, strange, incomprehensible speech they once spoke believing it made sense at the time, but no longer. Just like everyone who comes from a doctrine of fear into the knowledge of the truth in love, they will be like night and day. The old has passed away and everything is made new.
15 He who walks righteously
and speaks what is right,
who rejects gain from extortion
and keeps his hand from accepting bribes,
who stops his ears against plots of murder
and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil-
16 this is the man who will dwell on the heights,
whose refuge will be the mountain fortress.
His bread will be supplied,
and water will not fail him.
17 Your eyes will see the king in his beauty
and view a land that stretches afar.
18 In your thoughts you will ponder the former terror:
"Where is that chief officer?
Where is the one who took the revenue?
Where is the officer in charge of the towers?"
19 You will see those arrogant people no more,
those people of an obscure speech,
with their strange, incomprehensible tongue.
20 Look upon Zion, the city of our festivals;
your eyes will see Jerusalem,
a peaceful abode, a tent that will not be moved;
its stakes will never be pulled up,
nor any of its ropes broken.
21 There the LORD will be our Mighty One.
It will be like a place of broad rivers and streams.
No galley with oars will ride them,
no mighty ship will sail them.
22 For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
it is he who will save us.
23 Your rigging hangs loose:
The mast is not held secure,
the sail is not spread.
Then an abundance of spoils will be divided
and even the lame will carry off plunder.
24 No one living in Zion will say, "I am ill";
and the sins of those who dwell there will be forgiven.
If people stopped reading little by little and bit by bit, being snared up. :laughing7:
Quote from: SOtW on June 20, 2008, 06:35:26 PM
If people stopped reading little by little and bit by bit, being snared up. :laughing7:
I know. I was just being lazy. It won't happen again, though :icon_flower:
No such thing as stupid questions. Your question was legit, I find the problem is in that a person doesn't take time to keep reading when they find disturbing Scriptures. Most of the time, the answer is found within the chapter or chapters prior or following the disturbing line.
In this case, it was talking about the actions people continue to do, feeds a fire that God has set up to destroy wickedness and bad works. Who can dwell in continual burning? Nobody. We all will be forced to stop doing what is evil, and turn to what is good. In the meantime, we could have lost everything just like the Prodigal son, before recognizing that we need to turn back. Or like the one who built their house with straw, chaff and stone, suffering loss but saved as one through fire, as the Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 3.
So don't be afraid to put up what scares you, or sounds fearful. A good answer will come! :D
Quote from: SOtW on June 21, 2008, 06:36:01 PMIn this case, it was talking about the actions people continue to do, feeds a fire that God has set up to destroy wickedness and bad works. Who can dwell in continual burning? Nobody. We all will be forced to stop doing what is evil, and turn to what is good.
But what about the CLV's "eonian glowings?" What does that mean?
Quote from: Paul on June 21, 2008, 07:25:58 PM
Quote from: SOtW on June 21, 2008, 06:36:01 PMIn this case, it was talking about the actions people continue to do, feeds a fire that God has set up to destroy wickedness and bad works. Who can dwell in continual burning? Nobody. We all will be forced to stop doing what is evil, and turn to what is good.
But what about the CLV's "eonian glowings?" What does that mean?
The word in Hebrew is, "mowqed" which literally means: a burning mass, burning, hearth, furnace, chafing dish, etc.
It is just another mistranslation by English translators trying to justify a doctrine. If it meant 'glowings' or 'glow' or 'light' etc. it would have been the Hebrew word, "'owr" which means: light a) light of day, light of heavenly luminaries (moon, sun, stars), day-break, dawn, morning light, daylight, lightning, light of lamp, light of life, light of prosperity, light of instruction, light of face (fig.), etc.
Since Mr. Knoch didn't believe in ET, you believe he was probably going a little too far with that particular translation? Might he have said "eonian burnings" or "eonian punishment" and been more accurate, i.e., acknowledging the "burning" but not eternal?
Quote from: jabcat on June 22, 2008, 07:08:36 PM
Since Mr. Knoch didn't believe in ET, you believe he was probably going a little too far with that particular translation? Might he have said "eonian burnings" or "eonian punishment" and been more accurate, i.e., acknowledging the "burning" but not eternal?
Who are you asking the question to?
Quote from: SOtW on June 22, 2008, 05:04:22 AM
It is just another mistranslation by English translators trying to justify a doctrine. If it meant 'glowings' or 'glow' or 'light' etc. it would have been the Hebrew word, "'owr".
Anyone that wishes to answer, but I believe you spoke most directly to this, Craig.
Quote from: SOtW on June 22, 2008, 05:04:22 AM
If it meant 'glowings' or 'glow' or 'light' etc. it would have been the Hebrew word, "'owr" which means: light a) light of day, light of heavenly luminaries (moon, sun, stars), day-break, dawn, morning light, daylight, lightning, light of lamp, light of life, light of prosperity, light of instruction, light of face (fig.), etc.
It would be interesting to see how the Concordant translation handles this particular Hebrew word "owr" because it's more than a doctrinal issue with the translation. It's the attempt at matching each Hebrew and Greek word with an exact English equivalent -- or a "close enough" that doesn't elsewhere need to be used for a different Hebrew word, if they've translated it with the same principles of translation that have gone into the N.T. If the O.T. is handled anything like the N.T., then each Hebrew word has been matched up with it's own English word which isn't used again for another word except for when you're over into the Greek New Testament. Their goals are a harmony of the translation and to follow precisely St. Paul's comment about maintaining a "pattern of sound words." A lot of people forget about, or have never learned that about the Concordant Translation. Or they don't see through that, that that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll acheive absolute precision if once a word's used, it's their goal not to have to use the same English word again except when they're absolutely forced to. It's a study Bible, not an attempt at a 100% precise translation. It's so you can follow the usage of Hebrew words throughout the O.T. and Greek words throughout the N.T. though obviously some of the lexicons might sincerely wish they'd pressed for more accuracy. It's a literary work of art without an equal, for sure. It's everything that people have been lied to with the claim that the KJV was all of that. None of the thousands of editions of the KJV since the 1611 publication date have tried near as hard. It's a work of art without an equal.
When studying the New Testament, I use both the CLNT and Scarlett's side by side. Both are available, or have been available in the past from the same Concordant Publishing. A lot of the scholarship in Winchester's Dialogues tends to flavor Scarlett's translation.
If I had a copy of the C.L.O.T. I'd be comparing it diligently with Rotherham's Emphasized Bible -- while at the same time realizing that the translations in question might not be based exactly on the same ancient manuscripts in question. The variations between translations are sometimes more than just translational and doctrinal philosophy, but are sometimes a matter of believing that a different Hebrew or Greek ancient variant manuscript might have more closely captured the meaning of a passage. It teeters on a doctrinal leap, which it often is, but sometimes it's a matter of what's the latest discovered, oldest manuscripts that have been found since the translation of another edition of the Bible. NRSV uses quite a few questionable manuscripts and translational principles. I only like the NRSV for the footnotes about additional ancient manuscript variant readings. "Other ancient manuscripts say in whole or in part..................." Often those are interesting.
As far as the passage in question, I personally believe that Isaiah chapters 32 through 34 should be read as one discourse. Read together you see an overwhelming redemptive passage, and at it's close you see an illustration of why "forever and ever" need not be "forever," but that in the Scriptures one entirely different "forever and ever" judgment can preceed an entirely different "forever and ever" judgment -- both of which were fulfilled ages ago.
Without having a copy of the Hebrew text from which the Concordant Publishing Concern has come up with their Old Testament, I can't say that they don't actually have this word, owr, in this passage under consideration that Craig has brought up as the actual Hebrew word for "glowing."
I guess I should have clarified that one of my points is that if the Concordant Translation is based upon older manuscripts than the Masoretic text of the Old Testament (which I'm not sure if it is, not having a copy of the translation of the O.T.), and if the New Testament is based upon older manuscripts than the Textus Receptus that the majority of the KJV is translated from (i.e. Masoretic and Textus Receptus), then e-sword and other similar software isn't going to be 100% reliable for anticipating what they were looking at when the Concordant Translation was being made. I don't believe that there's any major differences between the ancient manuscripts that are doctrinally related. The son of God IS NOT suddenly Joseph Smith because an older manuscript was used. The only begotten of the New Testament is still Jesus Christ, whichever ancient manuscripts are used. Redemption is still through faith in the Blood of Christ and His promises from Genesis to Revelation regarding the Universal Restoration, etc. I posted something longer about how minor the major differences are between the different manuscripts on the thread that Mickiel had recently started on "What is the Word of God?" Most of the differences aren't any bigger than the spelling of a name or a question about a number that might have been a manuscript copying error, such as 616 or 666 for Revelation 13. Very likely it's 666 because of how that number's used elsewhere in the Bible. It really is minor stuff and I don't want to create the impression that because of a difference between appeals to manuscript authority (i.e. one manuscript being prefered to another in some translations on certain passages in question) for a handful of word variations that the Written aspect of our faith is in any way in doubt or in peril. It's not. There's more proof for the veracity of what we have in our Bibles than there's statistical proof for the life of former U.S. President John F. Kennedy. That's something we can all rejoice in!
Quote from: jabcat on June 23, 2008, 05:57:50 AM
Quote from: SOtW on June 22, 2008, 05:04:22 AM
It is just another mistranslation by English translators trying to justify a doctrine. If it meant 'glowings' or 'glow' or 'light' etc. it would have been the Hebrew word, "'owr".
Anyone that wishes to answer, but I believe you spoke most directly to this, Craig.
Well there was more than one person in this thread. It is a mistranslation, it is the only 'bible' that translates it that way. It is done by the universalist Concordant, doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together. They could not reconcile the word to fit their doctrine, so they changed the word definition.
Quote from: SOtW on June 23, 2008, 10:12:39 AM
It is a mistranslation, it is the only 'bible' that translates it that way. It is done by the universalist Concordant, doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together. They could not reconcile the word to fit their doctrine, so they changed the word definition.
Within the very strict boundaries that they've imposed upon themselves of having as uniform of a translation as possible, I still have to say that they've done a remarkably good job. As I said, I haven't gotten to study their Old Testament yet, but as far as the New Testament goes, I'll probably never go back to the NKJV after having read it. If their O.T. turns out to have totally, completely, and hopelessly bombed in it's present edition, I'm sure there will be future editions and in the mean time I've still got access to Rotherham's, Young's, and the NASB for O.T. readings. Their O.T.'s probably not half as bad as a lot of the other translations of it, though.
I saw an odd rendering of YHVH in one of their old books one time that left me scratching my head, (thinking perhaps a Septuignt rendering into English,) but I've seen subsequent handlings of it in other writings that makes me think that either that's an isolated reference or two based on something that I'm not familiar with, whether a different manuscript or whatever, or that something contextually made them do something intriguing. Or, in the book that I was looking at a few years ago, I was just looking at a horrendous typo. It wouldn't be the first or the last book that would have had a funny typo if that was the case.
QuoteWithin the very strict boundaries that they've imposed upon themselves of having as uniform of a translation as possible, I still have to say that they've done a remarkably good job.
Sure, I have a copy of their translation, and use it quite a bit. At the same time, 'glowings' is not a definition of "mowqed" and does not fit the context of the Isaiah chapter, which is easily understood. Unless, they are using the archaic usage of 'glowings',which after some research I found means: "to burn brightly without a flame" example: embers in a furnace (which are red hot) are referred to as 'glowings'. It means an inward burning, but no less friendly.
QuoteBut what about the CLV's "eonian glowings?" What does that mean?
If you guys have not seen the movie "Nanny McPhee" I highly recommend it. It is all about judgment. And soo similar to what I have learned and am learning about God's judgments to us.
I won't bore you with the details but, in the movie there is a smart young man who is the instigator of most of the trouble these out of control children get in. His name is Simon. He and the other kids (6 or 7) have "faked" having the measles to keep from getting out of bed as Nanny as told them to do. So, Nanny gives them the measles for real. Then she come up with this great big bottle of nasty, brown, lumpy, medicine they have to take to get well. Well, tired of being sick, they decided to take the medicine. When it came Simon's turn to take it, he said to Nanny, "what if I refuse to take it?" She calmly said, "then, you won't get well, I'm sure of it."
This is sort of how I see the everlasting burnings....sort of like Craig explained it I guess. We must agree with God that we just can't pull this thing called life off all by ourselves.(confessing, bowing) We step out of judgment into obedience.
just a few thoughts
ps..watch the movie, you will love it!
Debbie
Quote from: SOtW on June 20, 2008, 06:35:26 PM
Read it in context. Why are they burning and who is burning them?
It is not endless burnings, how long does chaff and straw burn for? It burns for as long as there remains chaff and straw. Notice that a rebellious nation continues to give birth to straw and conceives chaff. Until this rebellious nation stops feeding the fire, they will by their own continual action, burn. Who can dwell with consuming fire? Who of us can dwell in everlasting burning? None. So they must make a choice, step out of the fire, stop feeding the fire, and do what is right. When they do what is right, they will recognize what arrogant people they once were, and they will recognize the obscure, strange, incomprehensible speech they once spoke believing it made sense at the time, but no longer. Just like everyone who comes from a doctrine of fear into the knowledge of the truth in love, they will be like night and day. The old has passed away and everything is made new.
If people stopped reading little by little and bit by bit, being snared up. :laughing7:
Hi Craig,
I disagree with the 'none' part. Isn't the person below dwelling in the aionion fire that he previously lit? Isn't he dwelling successfully in it? I think so, because he has recognized his sin, realized the judgment of God is good for him, he's relying and waiting on God for deliverance. He has attained to a righteous attitude towards the whole thing.
Lamentations 3:21 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. 22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. 24 The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him. 25 The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him. 26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD. 27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth. 28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him. 29 He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope. 30 He giveth [his] cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach. 31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
The passage is does state who started the fire, but now who does the continual burning. There is none to blame but themselves for the fire that burns within them. The fire can only last as long as it is being fueled. None cannot successful dwell in continual burning, they will come to a point where they cannot bear it any longer.
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"
They are not successfully dwelling with consuming fire. They are not successfully dwelling with everlasting burning.
That is why:
"The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless."
There continues to be a problem in UR circles, which continues to believe the fire is a good thing, something we should embrace, that the Fire is God Himself, and not the work He had begun in the lives of sinners who continue to sin.
There is no question that the work God started will end, and it ends in Jesus Christ. There is no question that if God causes suffering and grief, that He will repay with His loving kindness. There is no question that God does not reject forever, because in Christ all are reconciled to Him. Only those who do not know the secret of reconciliation seem to be blind to this fact.
QuoteI think so, because he has recognized his sin, realized the judgment of God is good for him, he's relying and waiting on God for deliveranc
I would not want to be the one saved as through fire and suffer loss. I would want to be the one who built on the Foundation godly things, and receive the reward of the Kingdom. This also is not based on self-preservation, it is based out of the knowledge of the truth. When the Truth has set you free, why go back into bondage?
Quote from: SOtW on June 26, 2008, 02:14:44 AM
The passage is does state who started the fire, but now who does the continual burning. There is none to blame but themselves for the fire that burns within them. The fire can only last as long as it is being fueled. None cannot successful dwell in continual burning, they will come to a point where they cannot bear it any longer.
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"
They are not successfully dwelling with consuming fire. They are not successfully dwelling with everlasting burning.
That is why:
"The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless."
Hi Craig,
I wan't saying that the "sinners" are successfully dwelling in the consuming fire - since that fire is designed to consume them, there is no way they can thwart it. But the person in Lamentations 3 does not appear to be feeding the flame anymore. It appears to have consumed him. So I wouldn't classify him as a "sinner" within the meaning of the Isaiah passage. At the same time, he's still waiting for deliverance from the destruction of that flame. He still seems to be coping with the same gloomy situation that he created, yet he has a new attitude of hope and reliance on God. Since he is still sitting within the destress that he created yet has hope and faith, that's why I said he seesm to be dwelling sucessfully within it.
QuoteThere continues to be a problem in UR circles, which continues to believe the fire is a good thing, something we should embrace, that the Fire is God Himself, and not the work He had begun in the lives of sinners who continue to sin.
I think it's good in one sense ("It is good for a man to bear the yoke of his youth") but not in the sense that we should seek to enter that flame. It's only good in the sense that God is causing that flame, and it will succeed in it's purpose and benefit the sinner. But much better to just obey God in the first place.
I see two fires.
1. Fire of judgment that snares and destroys the sinner.
2. Fire that tries the righteous.
Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. 6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.
In physical terms, both might look the same: Trouble, distress in our lives. But the purposes are different. The former traps & consumes and the latter proves.
QuoteI would not want to be the one saved as through fire and suffer loss. I would want to be the one who built on the Foundation godly things, and receive the reward of the Kingdom. This also is not based on self-preservation, it is based out of the knowledge of the truth. When the Truth has set you free, why go back into bondage?
I don't think those two are mutually exclusive. Can't a person who was feeding the flame, suffer loss, and then repent and then build on godly things? Haven't we all suffered loss in things we've done that we wish we hadn't done?
This is a very interesting discussion!
I have a question that relates to this....I hope you don't mind me asking it here?
I did a reading of Isaiah in light of UR/US and noted a "theme" for each chapter...everything seemed to make sense to me....until I came to the very last chapter of Isaiah. Maybe someone here can give me some insight as to what is being said in that last chapter?
Isaiah 66:24 (YLT)
And they have gone forth, And looked on the carcases of the men Who are transgressing against me, For their worm dieth not, And their fire is not quenched, And they have been an abhorrence to all flesh!
The End of the book of Isaiah.
You don't know what unquenchable fire symbolizes?
:dontknow: Well, that is my point, Paul. I THOUGHT that I did understand it!....my curiousity about this last verse in Isaiah comes from the word "carcases." What is happening in this verse, according to your understanding? It leaves me feeling like, the final outcome for the people mentioned here is anhilation? You have to understand. I may be coming from a totally different perspective on UR/US teaching than you, or say, another person here, so....I am trying to just "converse" here, and find out what you think about this verse. It's disturbing.
Joyce :)
Quote from: joyful1 on July 20, 2008, 05:27:24 AM
:dontknow: Well, that is my point, Paul. I THOUGHT that I did understand it!....my curiousity about this last verse in Isaiah comes from the word "carcases." What is happening in this verse, according to your understanding? It leaves me feeling like, the final outcome for the people mentioned here is anhilation? You have to understand. I may be coming from a totally different perspective on UR/US teaching than you, or say, another person here, so....I am trying to just "converse" here, and find out what you think about this verse. It's disturbing.
Joyce :)
I see the 'carcases' as a symbol of the flesh, or our carnal old selves, that is a lothing or abhorrence to the New Man.
The carcases are of
all who transgressed against the Lord, right? Who doesn't that include?
Each of these passages is about Israelites who transgressed against the Lord. So they would be included in 'all who transgressed Me' and so they would be included in the 'carcases' being looked at and abhorred. These passages all say that they will lothe their former wicked selves in their own sight.
Ezekiel 20:42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. 43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and
ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. 44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 6:9 And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and
they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.
Ezekiel 36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall
lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
So I believe Isaiah is saying that all flesh will worship the Lord, and look upon their own spiritual carcases of their former flesh-nature as a lothing and abhorring to their new self.
willieH:
Hell-0! :laughing7:
I agree with Bobf's words... very good observations...
It is part of the WRATH of God that we look upon the "carcases" of SIN in our lives with LOATHING, for such "loathing" is an agreement and alignment with HIS view of it... and the
CHRIST within is the catylyst of that "loathing" as He works from within each of us... by REVEALING Himself to us in every area of our lives...
I would like to comment on ETERNAL observation and WRATH which are very pertinent...
ETERNAL is not a "from now-on" proposition... it is a STATE in which all within it ALWAYS IS...
The observation of the domain of GOD (eternity), is to gain a perspective that is UNCHANGING...
If
"hell" (non-existant place)... were ETERNAL, and anyone were to BE "in
HELL" on an "ETERNAL" basis... it would mean that they ARE PERPETUALLY in
HELL... having perpetually existed (without beginning or end) in this "condition".
The whole concept is ridiculous... for we ARE
NOT in
HELL now... so that means that a portion of
HELL's "ETERNITY" is compromised, by existence in THIS LIFETIME...
It also means that those "
HELL-dwelling" ones, had no chance of ever being anything other than
HELL-dwellers... for they have always (eternally)
existed/exist/will exist in this condition.
Any observation of an ETERNAL state, must remove TIME... for TIME (Gen 1) "began" FROM Eternity, and shall "end" in it... (John 6:44)
TIME has a
FIRST DAY and a
LAST DAY...
Eternity has NO DAYS... it just ALWAYS IS... :dontknow:
(1) If ETERNITY has "DAYS", then Gen 1 is compromised, for the
FIRST DAY of Gen 1, was not the "FIRST DAY"... because "days" in ETERNITY preceeded it...
(2) And the LAST DAY, spoken of by
CHRIST is also compromised, for as ETERNITY is entered, and "DAYS" exist there, then the "LAST DAY" is not the "LAST DAY"... :dontknow:
There is no ETERNAL "glowings"... for this "glowing" represents WRATH... GOD's WRATH, is found to be amidst TIME, for it is noted to be a "MOMENT" (Ps 29:5) a "moment" is a measurement or quantity of TIME... (which is actually miniscule - an INSTANT...)
That WRATH is
NOW... (Rom 1:18) For the WRATH of GOD, ...
IS... revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness OF men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...
His wrath IS, not was or will be, ...IS... revealed. The burnings are SPIRITUAL, and affect us NOW... in this... the LAKE of FIRE, in which we are amidst... where DEATH and HADES (world of the dead) have been cast and are active entities of HERE and NOW... They shall find their destruction, once TIME is complete (fullness of time), and are disbanded or neutralized entities as ALL who are DEAD in ADAM, re-arrive, in resurrection to LIFE, ...IN
CHRIST...
pEace...
...willieH :cloud9:
So-- the flesh is burned up, but the memory of the flesh is what Isaiah is talking about here--right? Very interesting-- thanks to bobf and willieH for giving your understanding on this! Does this help in explaining that annoyingly difficult verse:
Matthew 24:28
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
?
Joyce :)
Quote from: joyful1 on July 21, 2008, 02:23:19 PM
So-- the flesh is burned up, but the memory of the flesh is what Isaiah is talking about here--right? Very interesting-- thanks to bobf and willieH for giving your understanding on this! Does this help in explaining that annoyingly difficult verse:
Matthew 24:28
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
?
Joyce :)
Yes, I also understand Matthew 24:28 in the same light, though I think the Isaiah 66 verse is looking back on what has already occurred, while the Matthew verse is looking forward to what will occur, kind of like this:
Isaiah 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
For example, for the prodigal son, the ravenous bird was the judgment of God, his reaping of a pig-life that he had sown. The carcase was the carnal spirit in the prodigal son that loved riotous living and squandering of his inheritance.
I take Matthew 24 in it's entirety as using physical symbols to represent spiritual events in our lives. Not that I necessarily undertand all the symbols, wish I did.
IMO that's why Jesus said "this generation will not pass till all be fulfillled" because it was all fulfilled in that generation and continues be fulfilled in each generation in the lives of each person being coverted to Christ.
Example:
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Was fulfilled in believers leading up to the day of pentecost.
Acts 2:16 But
this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
If you study all occurances of the phrase "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood" you can get an idea of what's happening.
I believe it's about judgment on the house of God, not about AD 70 and all that. Vulture meet carcase.
Wow...very good, bobf--
so, for every generation, the sun (the light/understanding/truth) from God is darkened/hidden, the moon (church/reflecting the light of God) is turned to blood/not giving light anymore-- and the stars fall (leaders/prophets in the church also darkened/not giving "light upon the earth" any longer, as was their purpose in Genesis)...."the powers" being the ordained powers of God being shaken, so that whatever cannot be shaken is all that remains....interesting!
and then...if the Lord comes in your lifetime (comes into you) then the light/understanding/truth comes back...? Is this what you are saying?
Quote from: joyful1 on July 22, 2008, 03:00:34 AM
Wow...very good, bobf--
so, for every generation, the sun (the light/understanding/truth) from God is darkened/hidden, the moon (church/reflecting the light of God) is turned to blood/not giving light anymore-- and the stars fall (leaders/prophets in the church also darkened/not giving "light upon the earth" any longer, as was their purpose in Genesis)...."the powers" being the ordained powers of God being shaken, so that whatever cannot be shaken is all that remains....interesting!
and then...if the Lord comes in your lifetime (comes into you) then the light/understanding/truth comes back...? Is this what you are saying?
but then why would Paul be looking for a soon coming of Christ, when he had Truth already revealed in him??
and if every generation is "is,was and will be", then what is the "coming" of Christ other than our "personal physical death"?? as clearly, Paul, Peter, John etc had the Spirit come to them, they were still awaiting a future coming???
Quote from: bobf on July 21, 2008, 09:31:46 PM
Quote from: joyful1 on July 21, 2008, 02:23:19 PM
So-- the flesh is burned up, but the memory of the flesh is what Isaiah is talking about here--right? Very interesting-- thanks to bobf and willieH for giving your understanding on this! Does this help in explaining that annoyingly difficult verse:
Matthew 24:28
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
?
Joyce :)
Yes, I also understand Matthew 24:28 in the same light, though I think the Isaiah 66 verse is looking back on what has already occurred, while the Matthew verse is looking forward to what will occur, kind of like this:
Isaiah 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
For example, for the prodigal son, the ravenous bird was the judgment of God, his reaping of a pig-life that he had sown. The carcase was the carnal spirit in the prodigal son that loved riotous living and squandering of his inheritance.
I take Matthew 24 in it's entirety as using physical symbols to represent spiritual events in our lives. Not that I necessarily undertand all the symbols, wish I did.
IMO that's why Jesus said "this generation will not pass till all be fulfillled" because it was all fulfilled in that generation and continues be fulfilled in each generation in the lives of each person being coverted to Christ.
Example:
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Was fulfilled in believers leading up to the day of pentecost.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
If you study all occurances of the phrase "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood" you can get an idea of what's happening.
I believe it's about judgment on the house of God, not about AD 70 and all that. Vulture meet carcase.
So bobf, are you seeing all of Matthew 24 as the events leading up to pentacost, our own personal pentacost??
but the soon coming of Christ, spoken by the apostles after pentacost as a whole another prophecy yet to be fulfilled, and not included in Matthew 24??
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
is this tribulation not the same as this, spoken after pentacost??
Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Quote from: joyful1 on July 22, 2008, 03:00:34 AM
Wow...very good, bobf--
so, for every generation, the sun (the light/understanding/truth) from God is darkened/hidden, the moon (church/reflecting the light of God) is turned to blood/not giving light anymore-- and the stars fall (leaders/prophets in the church also darkened/not giving "light upon the earth" any longer, as was their purpose in Genesis)...."the powers" being the ordained powers of God being shaken, so that whatever cannot be shaken is all that remains....interesting!
and then...if the Lord comes in your lifetime (comes into you) then the light/understanding/truth comes back...? Is this what you are saying?
What you describe is exactly how Mike Vinson from http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/ understands the "sun, moon, stars" being darkened.
My understanding is that the 'sun, moon, stars' are symbols of idols in our lives. Created things of majesty that might draw us to worship them. I have trouble seeing 'the sun' in the context of 'sun, moon, stars' as representing God or God's true light because of the following verses which equate it with idol worship.
Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest
the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven....26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land
2 Kings 23:5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned Incense
unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets and to all the host of heaven.
Job 31:26 Have I looked at
the sun shining in the skies,
or the moon walking down its silver pathway, 27 and been secretly
enticed in my heart to worship them? 28 If so, I should be punished by the judges, for it would mean I had denied the God of heaven.
Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and
the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously
Isaiah 60:19 The
sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Revelation 21:23 And the city had
no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
If I worship the 'sun, mood, stars' what does God do? He sends me off to serve my dead gods.
Deuteronomy 4:27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And
there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
If God gives me manna (Christ) but I reject it and insist on flesh (my idol) then God gives me that flesh until the stench of it comes out my nostrils (sun, moon, stars darkened).
Numbers 11:18 And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for [it was] well with us in Egypt: therefore the LORD will give you flesh, and ye shall eat. 19 Ye shall not eat one day, nor two days, nor five days, neither ten days, nor twenty days; 20 But even a whole month, until it come out at your nostrils, and it be loathsome unto you: because that ye have despised the LORD which is among you, and have wept before him, saying, Why came we forth out of Egypt?
If you read about Israel's "lovers" in the OT imo those "lovers" equate to "sun, moon, stars". Both equate to spiritual adultery.
So in a nutshell, God's judgment demontrates to us that our idols, whatever they happend to be, are dead gods. For the prodigal son it was 'riotous living'.
I'm not saying the other interpretation is wrong. I just don't see it clearly.
I emailed Mike Vinson about it a long time ago.
http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/symbols_pos_neg.php
Quote from: laren on July 22, 2008, 03:06:47 AMbut then why would Paul be looking for a soon coming of Christ, when he had Truth already revealed in him??
Quoteas clearly, Paul, Peter, John etc had the Spirit come to them, they were still awaiting a future coming???
The spiritual coming of Christ to each person doesn't negate Christ's future coming in the history of mankind.
This verse shows that Christ comes to us on a personal basis.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless:
I will come to you.
Quote....and if every generation is "is,was and will be", then what is the "coming" of Christ other than our "personal physical death"??
I don't think it's physical death at all.
1. as thief in the night (judgment, wrath)
2. the revelation of Christ in us
If these verses are only about the one-time coming of Christ in history (say 1000 years from now) how can I obey any of these verses? They have nothing to do with me.
Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall
it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
If this passage is about a one-time coming of Christ in history, then it does not apply to most of mankind. Many will have watched, but the Lord did not come while they were watched. Many will have slept, but the Lord did not come while they were sleeping.
Mark 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
:mshock: THANKS bobf!! Now I'm totally messed up!! LOL!!!
I've got to do some "re-thinking" here and I'm not ashamed to say it....your comments are good arguments and I need to get to the bottom of this!
One comment on "Sun" however :
Malachi 4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Sun
H8121
שׁמשׁ
shemesh
sheh'-mesh
From an unused root meaning to be brilliant; the sun; by implication the east; figuratively a ray, that is, (architecturally) a notched battlement: - + east side (-ward), sun ([rising]), + west (-ward), window. See also H1053.
I see where the YLT, on the other hand, does NOT capitalize "SUN":
Mal 4:1 For, lo, the day hath come, burning as a furnace, And all the proud, and every wicked doer, have been stubble, And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts, That there is not left to them root or branch,
Mal 4:2 And risen to you, ye who fear My name, Hath the sun of righteousness--and healing in its wings, And ye have gone forth, and have increased as calves of a stall.
...........
It (YLT) seems to be equating the "sun" with the Day of The Lord and NOT the Lord himself?? If that is true--wow...THIS verse would have exposed THE TRUE PURPOSE FOR BURNING....and gone against the "hell" doctrine!! whoah!
Joyce :)
Quote from: bobf on July 22, 2008, 08:15:44 AM
Quote from: laren on July 22, 2008, 03:06:47 AMbut then why would Paul be looking for a soon coming of Christ, when he had Truth already revealed in him??
Quoteas clearly, Paul, Peter, John etc had the Spirit come to them, they were still awaiting a future coming???
The spiritual coming of Christ to each person doesn't negate Christ's future coming in the history of mankind.
This verse shows that Christ comes to us on a personal basis.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Quote....and if every generation is "is,was and will be", then what is the "coming" of Christ other than our "personal physical death"??
I don't think it's physical death at all.
1. as thief in the night (judgment, wrath)
2. the revelation of Christ in us
If these verses are only about the one-time coming of Christ in history (say 1000 years from now) how can I obey any of these verses? They have nothing to do with me.
Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
If this passage is about a one-time coming of Christ in history, then it does not apply to most of mankind. Many will have watched, but the Lord did not come while they were watched. Many will have slept, but the Lord did not come while they were sleeping.
Mark 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
Thanks bobf,
after pentacost, Christ's "individual" return to believers; Paul had this to say about another SOON coming of Christ. Was he just off on his time? if he wasnt' talking about each persons own "pentacost" as this was already past tense??
1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon
whom the ends of the ages have come.
Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up
treasure in the last days. 1Jn 2:18 Little children, it
is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that
it is the last hour.
compared to Matthew 24, where we are told "no one knows the hour"
Act 2:16-17 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on
all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more
as you see the Day approaching.
Heb 10:36-37 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "For
yet a little while, And He
who is coming will come and will not tarry." Rom 13:11-12 And do this, knowing the time, that
now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now
our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the
day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom 16:20 And the God of peace
will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Jas 5:7-9 Therefore
be patient, brethren,
until the
coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the
coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!
1Pet 4:7 But the
end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.
Phil 4:5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
1Cor 1:4-8 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, That you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, So that you come short in no gift,
eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will also confirm you to the end, that
you may be
blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cor 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the
time is short, so that from now on even those
who have wives should be as though they had none, Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which
must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the
time is near.
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the
time is at hand.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory
about to be revealed in us;
2Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is
about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign –
1Pet 5:1 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory
about to be revealed a partaker...
Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come
after these things;So, these "about to" verses are more than our "own personal coming/pentacost" arent' they??
Unless we spiritualize them, some "internal second coming", then the apostles were wrong on their "about to" happen prophecies weren't they??
And if we do spiritualize them, then what is that "second return" spiritually, what is the "receiving the end of our faith"???
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the
end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Good questions Laren! Wish I had all the answers. (;
Quote from: laren on July 22, 2008, 03:30:04 PM1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
compared to Matthew 24, where we are told "no one knows the hour"
I don't see these as different. In both cases I get the understanding that
- the time is at near, impending, at hand
- but we do not know the exact time
Saying "it is the last hour" does not mean to me that I now know the hour. It's just an expression that means it is imminent.
Even though I know "it is the last hour" it could still overtake me as a thief (1 Thes 5).
QuoteSo, these "about to" verses are more than our "own personal coming/pentacost" arent' they??
Unless we spiritualize them, some "internal second coming", then the apostles were wrong on their "about to" happen prophecies weren't they??
And if we do spiritualize them, then what is that "second return" spiritually, what is the "receiving the end of our faith"???
It seems like you are saying that we're are stuck no matter how we look at it. Do you have a way out? I agree with your first statement above "unless we spiritualize them...then the apostles were wrong..."
How about these two statements:
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And
hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the
power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means
I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
On the one had we are already raised up with Christ and seated in the heavenlies. On the other hand, Paul has not yet attained to the resurrection.
Also, Paul associates attaining to the resurrection with being 'perfect' and something to 'follow after' during his life time as opposed to something to wait for in history.
Aren't we also 'stuck' with those two passages in a similar way? Why is Paul talking about attaining to the resurrection if he is already raised with Christ and seated in the heavenlies?
I would say 'the end of our faith' is to be conformed to the image of Christ. Something we press on towards in this life, but we never fully attain until the resurrection.
Quote from: joyful1 on July 22, 2008, 03:02:37 PM
:mshock: THANKS bobf!! Now I'm totally messed up!! LOL!!!
Sorry...didn't mean to do that! Just my tentative understanding.
QuoteI've got to do some "re-thinking" here and I'm not ashamed to say it....your comments are good arguments and I need to get to the bottom of this!
One comment on "Sun" however :
Malachi 4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Yeah, that's one of the verses where the response to my question on IWWB says that 'the Sun' can symbolize Christ. Their point was that every symbol has both postive and negative application. For example, Lion in one place = Christ, Lion in another place = Devil. Snake in most places = devil, Serpant on pole = Christ. etc.
QuoteMal 4:1 For, lo, the day hath come, burning as a furnace, And all the proud, and every wicked doer, have been stubble, And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts, That there is not left to them root or branch,
Mal 4:2 And risen to you, ye who fear My name, Hath the sun of righteousness--and healing in its wings, And ye have gone forth, and have increased as calves of a stall.
...........
It (YLT) seems to be equating the "sun" with the Day of The Lord and NOT the Lord himself?? If that is true--wow...THIS verse would have exposed THE TRUE PURPOSE FOR BURNING....and gone against the "hell" doctrine!! whoah!
Joyce :)[/color]
Interesting. I see what you're saying, but I would still tend to understand the 'Sun' there as symboliing the Spirit of Christ or Righteousness that arises within us that enables us to escape from within the Day of the Lord, as opposed to symbolizing the Day of the Lord itself. But I dunno for sure. ;)
I don't think that changes what you are saying about the purpose of the Day of the Lord though. You might take a look at Joel ch 1-2 if you haven't already. I think these two chapters provide alot of detail about the Day of the Lord, who enters, why they enter, who exits, how they exit, what's the outcome. I also think that the 'armies surrounding Jerusalem' in the Matthew 24 passage are probably the same as the 'armies' in Joel.
Ok how about "wars & rumors of wars".
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and
rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Jeremiah 49:14 I have heard a
rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent unto the heathen, saying, Gather ye together, and come against her, and
rise up to the battle. 15 For, lo, I will make thee small among the heathen, and despised among men. 16
Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and
the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest
the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make
thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the LORD.
Jerermiah 51:45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD. 46 And lest your heart faint, and ye fear for
the rumour that shall be heard in the land;
a rumour shall both come one year, and after that in another year shall come a rumour,
and violence in the land, ruler against ruler. 47 Therefore, behold, the days come, that
I will do judgment upon the graven images of Babylon: and her whole land shall be confounded, and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her.
All the underlined parts I see as being the same as idolatry of the 'sun, moon, stars' which God will darken when He 'brings thee down from thence'.
IMO the war, the day of the Lord, is all about judgment on the graven images of Babylon (whatever exactly they are).
Joel 1-2 is also a rumor of war.
Quote from: joyful1 on July 22, 2008, 03:02:37 PM
I see where the YLT, on the other hand, does NOT capitalize "SUN":
Mal 4:1 For, lo, the day hath come, burning as a furnace, And all the proud, and every wicked doer, have been stubble, And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts, That there is not left to them root or branch,
Mal 4:2 And risen to you, ye who fear My name, Hath the sun of righteousness--and healing in its wings, And ye have gone forth, and have increased as calves of a stall.
bobf--
One other note: look at the articles included in the 2 translations and notice that in the (YLT) they used "its" wings-- (KJV) used "his" wings.
and you can see that, in the (YLT) as well; it is the DAY that does the burning here...
And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts,....and the burning of the "wicked" is definitely "hurtful" to the flesh....but "healing" to the spirit....or do you think that it is "healing" only to the righteous?
On the armies of Joel--I have to think about that one--I'm still reeling over this last discovery! LOL! Get back with you later today on the other!
Joyce :)
Okay...I've just got to make one more comment here:
the burning going on here leaves the wicked with NO ROOT OR BRANCH-- no ability to "expand" or "grow"--this is in direct opposition to the "kingdom of God" which is a growing thing, an ever increasing kingdom. Just never saw that before!
Quote from: joyful1 on July 24, 2008, 02:07:19 PM
One other note: look at the articles included in the 2 translations and notice that in the (YLT) they used "its" wings-- (KJV) used "his" wings. and you can see that, in the (YLT) as well; it is the DAY that does the burning here...And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts,....and the burning of the "wicked" is definitely "hurtful" to the flesh....but "healing" to the spirit....or do you think that it is "healing" only to the righteous?
On the armies of Joel--I have to think about that one--I'm still reeling over this last discovery! LOL! Get back with you later today on the other!
Joyce :)
Hi Joyce,
I only have time for a very quick reply. I believe a human being enters the Day of the Lord with one spirit (carnal, old man) and that same human being exits the Day of the Lord with a new spirit (my understanding is that that is what the 'sun of righteousness' refers to) which could be an 'it' or 'Him' depending on whether you think the spirit of Christ is a nature (it) or a person (Him). So in that sense only the righteous receive healing, but it's the same human being who had been wicked, proud, etc. and the Day of the Lord is why he needs healing.
bobf-- can you sum up in a short paragraph what you believe is the chronology of events for this age and the age to come? I'm probably asking too much here! LOL! but there are so many different takes on it now.....just want to understand where you are coming from?
Sincerely,
Joyce :)
Quote from: joyful1 on July 25, 2008, 10:37:18 AM
bobf-- can you sum up in a short paragraph what you believe is the chronology of events for this age and the age to come? I'm probably asking too much here! LOL! but there are so many different takes on it now.....just want to understand where you are coming from?
Sincerely,
Joyce :)
Hi Joyce,
I don't have much of a take on the 'literal, physical' sequence of events. I believe all scripture is primarily instruction in righteousness for us
now and to interpret scriptures with a physical future prophetic interpretation
instead of a spiritual interpretation applicable to our lives now, is to miss the boat. Note: I said 'instead of'. I'm not saying there is not a true physical interpretation. I'm just saying that is not the real point.
To give an comparison. All the OT scriptures truly recorded physical history. Yet all of those same scriptures testify of Christ. To focus on the physical history side of OT scriptures, instead of how they testify of Christ, is to miss the boat. I think we can do the same thing with prophecies about the future.
Ezekiel 12:21 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? 23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them,
The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. 24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. 25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass;
it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house,
will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. 26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth
is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. 28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD.
With that said, here is about as detailed as I can get:
1. There will be a first resurrection of God's elect few.
2. There will be a second resurrection of the many.
3. The few will judge the many.
4. The many will be instructed in righteousness and brought into God's kingdom by the few.
Bob
That's what I understand to be the truth as well, bobf.
Thanks for clarifying your position.
Joyce :)
Quote from: bobf on July 25, 2008, 07:20:50 PM
With that said, here is about as detailed as I can get:
1. There will be a first resurrection of God's elect few.
2. There will be a second resurrection of the many.
3. The few will judge the many.
4. The many will be instructed in righteousness and brought into God's kingdom by the few.
Bob
I feel so blessed to be amongst so many knowledgeable and SEEKING brothers and sisters... We do not see eye to eye on all things... and no one has all the answers, but THAT is a big part of what is fun and challenging, within the SEEKING!
You all have stated so many great insights! :happy3:
I am truly thankful to read and consider them! :bgdance:
My :2c: About the "FEW"...
As I see it, the "
FEW" elect do not make judgments
of themselves... It is the
CHRIST that is IN THEM, that actually does the judging... It is the alignment
with CHRIST that is the testimony of judgment against MISALIGNMENT...
YHVH is putting ALL THINGS under the feet of
JESUS CHRIST... (1 Cor 15:27)
So (as I see it) the
FEW are just tools, in the hand of the Father...
peacE...
...willieH :icon_king:
QuoteWith that said, here is about as detailed as I can get:
1. There will be a first resurrection of God's elect few.
2. There will be a second resurrection of the many.
3. The few will judge the many.
4. The many will be instructed in righteousness and brought into God's kingdom by the few.
Bob
Indeed, I agree. It is hard to find many to recognize this.
If I had said this, there are many in this forum would have stood against me saying that I think myself special to be selected as the few who will judge the many, as if I have ever put myself in that position or know exactly what it means to be judged by the righteous of God (who is Love by the way). Whether we are the few or the many, does not change the fact that the few will judge the many and that the few will be the ones who instruct the many in righteousness and into God's Kingdom. Saying this, the few are not "Universalists" or "Catholics" or "Protestants" etc or have all the knowledge of the Truth neatly piled. It is those who have unity in Faith in the Son of God because even if they were off on their knowledge, in the First Resurrection, there is no flesh to obscure the knowledge of the Truth and so all things would be made clear.
Quote from: SOtW on July 25, 2008, 09:47:37 PMIndeed, I agree. It is hard to find many to recognize this.
If I had said this, there are many in this forum would have stood against me saying that I think myself special to be selected as the few who will judge the many, as if I have ever put myself in that position or know exactly what it means to be judged by the righteous of God (who is Love by the way).
Really?! I'm surprised. I guess I'm not aware of the variations in beliefs among universalists on this. I thought that was pretty standard.
QuoteWhether we are the few or the many, does not change the fact that the few will judge the many and that the few will be the ones who instruct the many in righteousness and into God's Kingdom. Saying this, the few are not "Universalists" or "Catholics" or "Protestants" etc or have all the knowledge of the Truth neatly piled.
I agree Craig. Ye shall know them by their fruits, not their labels.
QuoteIt is those who have unity in Faith in the Son of God because even if they were off on their knowledge, in the First Resurrection, there is no flesh to obscure the knowledge of the Truth and so all things would be made clear.
Yeah, I think we will always see through a glass darkly unless the first resurrection. Also, I don't believe anyone can know that he will rise in the first resurrection, as there is always the possibility for anyone to fall away (at least from our vantange point, though God already knows who are the few and they will remain faithful to the end, yet it is still a choice for them to remain faithful).
Question for you guys. Mike Vinson (and I think Ray Smith) believe that none of the OT believers will rise in the first resurrection. What does you all think?
These are the primary passages I know of to support this.
1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
On the other hand.
Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection.
Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Hi bobf,
To me, the most important thing that I have learned is that my heart seems to be in the process of literally being "changed." I'm not the same as I was 20 years ago, 20 months ago, 20 days ago....it is an ongoing process that seems to be ocurring. If He chooses me to be part of the elect, then that choice is His, not mine. God does the choosing. If He does not choose me/ hasn't chosen me, then He is still being very gracious and kind to me by giving me the oportunity to have at least some of this awful carnality burned off in advance of the LOF. Not that I don't strive toward the "mark of the high calling in Christ Jesus", I certainly do!
I see the elect as the "servants" of others, just as a judge is a "public servant" and a true priest "serves the flock," by "feeding it." Jesus did not come to be served, but to serve. Remember his admonition to the desciples about that?
Luke 22:24-26
24And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Okay....just my thoughts here!
Have a great day! :icon_flower:
Joyce :)
Hello Bob,
I disagree with Mike, the resurrection of the dead was a promise to even the Old Testament Saints who trusted in Jesus, though they did not know Him by Name, they did know the Lord.
Quote from: SOtW on July 27, 2008, 08:26:42 PM
Hello Bob,
I disagree with Matt, the resurrection of the dead was a promise to even the Old Testament Saints who trusted in Jesus, though they did not know Him by Name, they did know the Lord.
Thanks Craig. That's how I see it too.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day:
and he saw it, and was glad.
I mean, Abraham's Seed is Christ. He had the Seed, right? If we are Abraham's Seed then we have the Seed that Abraham had by faith!
The thing that's kind of unusual, it that the IWWB folks emphasize the 'is, was, and will be' nature of Christ, and yet on this point abandon that Christ 'WAS' as He 'IS' in His dealings with mankind.
Quote from: joyful1 on July 27, 2008, 03:36:01 PM
Hi bobf,
To me, the most important thing that I have learned is that my heart seems to be in the process of literally being "changed." I'm not the same as I was 20 years ago, 20 months ago, 20 days ago....it is an ongoing process that seems to be ocurring. If He chooses me to be part of the elect, then that choice is His, not mine. God does the choosing. If He does not choose me/ hasn't chosen me, then He is still being very gracious and kind to me by giving me the oportunity to have at least some of this awful carnality burned off in advance of the LOF. Not that I don't strive toward the "mark of the high calling in Christ Jesus", I certainly do!
I see the elect as the "servants" of others, just as a judge is a "public servant" and a true priest "serves the flock," by "feeding it." Jesus did not come to be served, but to serve. Remember his admonition to the desciples about that?
Luke 22:24-26
24And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Okay....just my thoughts here!
Have a great day! :icon_flower:
Joyce :)
Amen Joyce.
I think your thoughts are right on. I don't know what else to say because you have said it so well. I do strive too and I do see God changing my heart though it is a constant struggle for me, one of falling down and getting up again and again.
I wish it were easier, but for me it's not.
Bob