This was referred to in another thread . . .it's something that's never rested in me since coming into kingdom truths due to the fact that many arguments between the saints are justified by the arguers due to this verse . . .but it just seems amiss for me. I understand things need to be discussed, fleshed out and as defenses come up, explanations also expand to explain why the defense isn't necessary . . I get all of that . .and in "that" sense, I think the iron sharpening iron does fit . . .but it's the grueling debates that never seem to end as neither party is willing to give any ground on a subject that kind of causes me to pause.
The iron sharpening iron passage is actually speaking about a "friend" sharpening the COUNTENANCE of another.
Proverbs 27
17Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
For me, that means that the discussion is totally for the intent of uplifting another, not proving one right or wrong . . .
anyway . . . while I was playing around with that . . .I drifted down a little lower in the chapter and came across this verse . . .
22Though thou shouldest bray a fool in a mortar among wheat with a pestle, yet will not his foolishness depart from him.
Now . ..doesn't that just sound like a biblical saying? forget the last part . . .do you actually understand what that first part is really saying? What the heck is braying a fool in a mortar among wheat for crying out loud??!! with a pestle!!! This is where I love my message translation . . .among others . . .it just seems to cut through the mumble jumble of rheteric of how people used to talk hundreds of years ago . . . check this out . . .
same verse . . .
22 Pound on a fool all you like—
you can't pound out foolishness.
Now . . .doesn't that just make so much more sense??? And . . ironically, it's actually connected with the "old" iron sharpens iron mindsets as well.
That was really why I started this post . .not so much about the iron . .but about how cool this is in this other translation.
:cloud9: That's good..... :thumbsup:
Basically, all the scriputes verses talk about Jesus, the salvation.
And they are not meant to teach how to live well and wisely in the world.
[Jn 5:39-40]
39/ Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.
40/ And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Therefore, the following verses also are about Jesus.
[Pr 27:17]
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
[Pr 27:22]
Though thou shouldest bray a fool in a mortar among wheat with a pestle,
yet will not his foolishness depart from him.
Quote from: 70sevens on February 02, 2009, 03:34:05 AM
Basically, all the scriputes verses talk about Jesus, the salvation.
And they are not meant to teach how to live well and wisely in the world.
[Jn 5:39-40]
39/ Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.
40/ And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Therefore, the following verses also are about Jesus.
[Pr 27:17]
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
[Pr 27:22]
Though thou shouldest bray a fool in a mortar among wheat with a pestle,
yet will not his foolishness depart from him.
Ok, how are you seeing these verses being Christ?
God and Man are different each other.
God has no flesh, but man has flesh.
Jesus, even if he is God, has flesh like man.
He is a man, our brethren.
[Dt 18:18]
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee,
and will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
[Ro 8:3]
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,
God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
This Jesus saves us, i.e. a man saves man.
This is what "iron sharpens iron" means.
"a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."
Here 'a man' refers to Jesus Christ who came in the flesh in this world.
'sharpens' refers to save, or make born again, heal, etc.
'countenance of his friend' refers to 'friend himself'.
In fact, Jesus saved his disciples by making them his friends.
[Jn 15:15]
Henceforth I call you not servants;
for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends;
for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
And below is the one of examples that countenance of his friend was sharpened.
[Ac 4:13]
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John,
and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men,
they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them,
that they had been with Jesus.
The pounding on a fool . . .is this then a picture of Jesus speaking to the Pharisees?
Quote from: Nathan on February 03, 2009, 03:26:40 PM
The pounding on a fool . . .is this then a picture of Jesus speaking to the Pharisees?
[Pr 27:22]
Though thou shouldest bray a fool in a mortar among wheat with a pestle,
yet will not his foolishness depart from him.
Of course, Jesus could speak this to Pharisees,
but Phariesss are the representation of all mankind.
So this is God's speaking to all the mankind.
'A fool' does not mean a man who has below starndard IQ,
but a man who is seperated from God, the source of wisdom.
'Mortar' refers to the law and/or regulation, the box/frame which men should go in.
'Pestle' refers to the commands that ask men to keep the law, i.e., to go into the box.
'braying a fool in a mortar among wheat with a pestle'
refers to the picture of pressing people to keep the laws.
[Mt 23:4]
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne,
and lay them on men's shoulders;
but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
This is what Pharisees did, but not limited to them,
we also are doing the same thing now.
For instance, "Love your neighbor as yourself!".
This is the law for us to keep, and it works as mortar.
Everyday we are commanded/command to press in to love our neighbor
in schools, the churches or elsewhere.
We are "braying a fool (each other) in a mortar among wheat with a pestle"
in this sense.
So we are contemporary Pharisees.
Nevertheless, "his foolishness will not depart from him."
No matter how hard we may try to love our neighbors according to the law,
we are unable to do that ever.
We are having a hard time by pestle like a grain in the mortar.
And yet we cannot love.
Our foolishness does not depart from us.
[Ro 3:20]
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
In order to make depart the foolishness from us,
we have to be one with God, the source of wisdom, by the salvation of Jesus Christ.
That's the only way.
Then our foolishness will depart from us for ever,
and we will be able to love our neighbors.
Do we know this Jesus Christ, a man?
Quote from: 70sevens on February 04, 2009, 11:33:28 AM
Quote from: Nathan on February 03, 2009, 03:26:40 PM
The pounding on a fool . . .is this then a picture of Jesus speaking to the Pharisees?
[Pr 27:22]
Though thou shouldest bray a fool in a mortar among wheat with a pestle,
yet will not his foolishness depart from him.
Of course, Jesus could speak this to Pharisees,
but Phariesss are the representation of all mankind.
So this is God's speaking to all the mankind.
'A fool' does not mean a man who has below starndard IQ,
but a man who is seperated from God, the source of wisdom.
'Mortar' refers to the law and/or regulation, the box/frame which men should go in.
'Pestle' refers to the commands that ask men to keep the law, i.e., to go into the box.
'braying a fool in a mortar among wheat with a pestle'
refers to the picture of pressing people to keep the laws.
[Mt 23:4]
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne,
and lay them on men's shoulders;
but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
This is what Pharisees did, but not limited to them,
we also are doing the same thing now.
For instance, "Love your neighbor as yourself!".
This is the law for us to keep, and it works as mortar.
Everyday we are commanded/command to press in to love our neighbor
in schools, the churches or elsewhere.
We are "braying a fool (each other) in a mortar among wheat with a pestle"
in this sense.
So we are contemporary Pharisees.
Nevertheless, "his foolishness will not depart from him."
No matter how hard we may try to love our neighbors according to the law,
we are unable to do that ever.
We are having a hard time by pestle like a grain in the mortar.
And yet we cannot love.
Our foolishness does not depart from us.
[Ro 3:20]
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
In order to make depart the foolishness from us,
we have to be one with God, the source of wisdom, by the salvation of Jesus Christ.
That's the only way.
Then our foolishness will depart from us for ever,
and we will be able to love our neighbors.
Do we know this Jesus Christ, a man?
Thanks for this man . . . well explained and received . .. I appreciate your wisdom here.
:cloud9: I like this too, 70sevens.... :thumbsup:
"Do you wish to get well?"
[Jn 5:2-9]
2/ Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called
in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.3/ In these lay a great
multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving
of the water.4/ For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool,
and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water
stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. 5/ And a certain man
was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 6/ When Jesus saw him lie,
and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him,
Wilt thou be made whole? 7/ The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man,
when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming,
another steppeth down before me. 8/ Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed,
and walk. 9/ And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed,
and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
The man of infirmity has spent 38 years by the Bethesda pool without being healed.
He was aiming at going into the pool first for healing,
but constitutionally he could not do so because of his infirmity.
And yet, he was trying something impossible.
On the day, Jesus came to him, not from the pool he was looking at, but from his very side.
Jesus was asking him "Do you wish to get well?"
This may imply that "You are trying to do something impossible
and yet do you think you could be healed?
Do you really wish to get well?
Anyway he was healed.
To know the fact, he was healed by meeting Jesus,
even if he was going wrong direction.
He was able to meet Jesus only because he had been a long time in that case.
Likewise, we believe in Jesus because we think we are the ones who need healing.
So we are attending the church, studying Bible, prophesying, doing contribution,
trying to love neighbors, discussing about Jesus, etc.
We are doing so in Jesus' name anticipating healing by Him.
However, all these efforts are our trial to go into the pool,
the wrong direction, as the man here.
We are braying a fool in a mortar.
All mankind are supposed to do so before meeting Jesus.
When we reach a long time in that case, i.e., 38 years,
we would recognize Jesus beside us and we would be healed.
Appearantly our times are not yet up 38 years,
considering that we are expecting some kind of salvation in the future.
To wait for the salvation in the future means
that we are not saved now here even if we believe.
Shouldn't we be healed now, if we believe?
Do we wish to get well really?