Tentmaker Forum

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD  was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

What do you all say to this?

As I've tried to explain so many times, Satan is also a Lord, not my Lord but the LORD of many (The tares).  If you can wipe away your bias and indoctrinations long enough to see this obvious and outright connection and explaination of who the LORD who directed David in 2 Samuel 24:1 to number Israel actually is...will understand something that escapes the world  at large, the fact that Satan is actually the LORD many times who speaks  throughout the old testament!

Only by the blessing and grace of Jesus Christ can we discern between the two LORDS in the Old testament.  How do we discern?  by observing the LORD who speaks FRUITS!  
(Is the LORD who is speaking and directing compassionate or not?  Is he brutal or not?  Is he hypocritical or not?  Does he set people up so he can tear them apart?  or not??).

This again is strong...Blessed be the Lord of Love for gracing us with this KEY of knowledge.

Blessed be Christ Jesus the TRUTH and the WORD of the HIGH GOD!

Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Judges 2:20
And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;

anger of the LORD = Satan = Death.

I think you are arguing the wrong point.    No one is denying Satans evil work, nor that people do his work.

The argument that you bring from what I can tell is that those tares (physical human beings on earth) have no hope EVER in Christ.


Am I correct in my perception of your belief?

This thread is not about tare, but those two scriptures Paul. I have presented all kinds of scriptures about tares. No point in any more since Jesus explained it fully.
How do you explain these two witnesses of the same event?

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 01:19:42 AM
This thread is not about tare, but those two scriptures Paul. I have presented all kinds of scriptures about tares. No point in any more since Jesus explained it fully.
How do you explain these two witnesses of the same event?

I realize that we can't always expect someone to answer questions the way we like, I respectfully extend that perogative to you as far as being judgmental or how my heart sees you.


However there is nothing wrong with expecting a question answered to avoid assumption.

My point of view based on scripture is that ALL human beings have hope in Christ.

What is yours?

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 01:19:42 AMHow do you explain these two witnesses of the same event?

Simple, God had Satan move David to number Israel.

Another example of this kind of thing (there are many):  God gave Paul a thorn in the flesh yet that thorn was a messenger of Satan.

 :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:That's pathetic Bob.  :sigh: :laughing7:

No answer at all about the thread eh? :sigh:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 05:24:28 AM
:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:That's pathetic Bob.  :sigh: :laughing7:

Pathetically obvious.  Maybe you can explain who smote Job, God or Satan?

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12  And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.

Job 1:21  And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst ME AGAINST HIM, to destroy him without cause.

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. 6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. 7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

20And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;

21I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:

22That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not. --Judges 2



Hi PT.  I always enjoy reading your point of view. Your writing blesses me.   Here I see the LORD as being perfectly justified in his anger and withdrawing his support of the Israelites.

What are they doing to bring this on themselves?  They are worshipping Baal and Ashtaroth.  They are becoming satanists, paganists, "whoring after other gods," and have turned their backs on the God of their fathers.   They have stopped obeying the commandments of the LORD.  And, the next generation becomes even more corrupt.

So the LORD becomes angry and withdraws his protection.  Makes perfect sense to me.

"Baal"

H1168
בּעל
ba‛al
bah'-al
The same as H1167; Baal, a Phoenician deity: - Baal, [plural] Baalim.

A covenant with death and an agreement with Hell--




7Priests and prophets stumble

   because they are drunk.

   Their minds are too confused

   to receive God's messages

   or give honest decisions.

    8Their tables are covered,

   completely covered,

   with their stinking vomit.

    9You drunken leaders

   are like babies!

   How can you possibly understand

   or teach the LORD's message?

    10You don't even listen--

   all you hear is senseless sound

   after senseless sound.  11So, the Lord will speak

   to his people

   in strange sounds

   and foreign languages.  12He promised you

   perfect peace and rest,

   but you refused to listen.

    13Now his message to you

   will be senseless sound

   after senseless sound.  Then you will fall backwards,

   injured and trapped.

14You rulers of Jerusalem

   do nothing but sneer;

   now you must listen

   to what the LORD says.

    15Do you think you have

   an agreement with death

   and the world of the dead?

  Why do you trust in your lies

   to keep you safe from danger

   and the mighty flood?

    16And so the LORD says,

  "I'm laying a firm foundation

   for the city of Zion.

   It's a valuable cornerstone

   proven to be trustworthy;

   no one who trusts it

   will ever be disappointed.

    17Justice and fairness

   will be the measuring lines

   that help me build."

  Hailstones and floods

   will destroy and wash away

   your shelter of lies.

    18Your agreement with death

   and the world of the dead

  will be broken.

   Then angry, roaring waves

   will sweep over you.

    19Morning, noon, and night

   an overwhelming flood

   will wash you away.

   The terrible things that happen

   will teach you this lesson:

    20Your bed is too short,

   your blanket too skimpy. 21The LORD will fiercely attack

   as he did at Mount Perazim  and in Gibeon Valley.  But this time the LORD

   will do something surprising,

   not what you expect.

    22So you had better stop sneering

   or you will be in worse shape

   than ever before.

   I heard the LORD All-Powerful

   threaten the whole country

   with destruction.

--Isaiah 28

willieH: Hi 'troll... :hithere:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 01:19:42 AM
This thread is not about tare, but those two scriptures Paul. I have presented all kinds of scriptures about tares. No point in any more since Jesus explained it fully.

JESUS indeed explained it fully, you just don't have understanding of His words...  :dontknow:  His Words are SPIRITUALLY understood, and to this day, continue to confound the NATURAL observer (such as yourself)

To this point all you have presented is veiled understanding of tares... viewing from the natural/carnal...


...willieH   :cloud9:

I don't know, Willi--there always seems to be a group who is willing to take the offer that Jesus refused--




Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Bob, Satan used his position as the right arm to do what he did to Job. God the Father is Power. All power is Given to the Light forever more. Satan is the owner of all under heaven as he said in Job, when boasting that he could take out Leviathan.

Job 41:10None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?

11Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.  [ he didn't claim heaven, just as he didn't when he offered the world to Jesus. ]


Willi, why do you keep going off topic on this thread? There is another, readily available thread about tares in this format. You have no answer to the two scriptures that are the subject on this one??

As far as understanding what Jesus said, He would speak a parable, then give the explanation. Doesn't take a mental giant to understand when He explains outrightly.
The thing is to hear Him and put faith in His word, and keep them, meaning believe Him.

I know you are refering to what Paul wrote in Romans and 1st Corrinthians, thinking that means some mystical different meaning to what the scriptures say. I'll post them.

Romans 8:5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You don't know what he was referring to. He was referring to works, the way that seems right to a man, doing all the law as the way to eternal life. Paul quoted David on works.

Romans 11: 7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Jesus referred to this also.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Jesus said this.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

One cannot really believe Jesus is God, and the end for righteous to all who believe unless that faith is given By the Holy Spirit. Jesus. The carnal mind can't escape works and guilt because there is no man good, only God is good. :2c:

Lets get back to the topic of the thread, OK?

 I realize that for some reason you don't see that our Father's will is NOT being done on earth, but what did Jesus say to pray for?


Matthew 6:9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.  

Exodus 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Now, what kind of heart does Jesus say evil thoughts come out of??

Matthew 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

What kind of heart did Jesus show us the TRUE FATHER Has? 

John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

And what were those works?  What was his speech?  Kindness, mercy and forgiveness....not pride, arrogance and 'evil thoughts'!!!

Matthew 18:
21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Luke 6:35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Did the 'Anger of the Lord' forgive as often as Jesus told us to?  Does the Most High God (who is Love), order us to do things he will not lay a finger on?  Does he lay burdens on us that he can not and does not carry himself?  Is the true God a hypocrite? (I think not).

The True God was expressed in Jesus and only Jesus, he never showed up on the Mount in anger and wrath.  He never provoked David to number Israel, he never had 'evil thoughts' as some believe he did...

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Jesus is God and when you know Christ, you know the Father, and his heart is good and has no 'evil thoughts'.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Still, after all the posts we have done, you, and I, the heart of the question has not been addressed.
What is the meaning of these two contradicting scriptures? What are you supposed to see and face?

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 07, 2008, 06:28:11 PM
Still, after all the posts we have done, you, and I, the heart of the question has not been addressed.
What is the meaning of these two contradicting scriptures? What are you supposed to see and face?

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Hint:  People think those contradict if they have not been drawn to see that God is in control of "EV-ER-Y-THING"

Verse hint:
Job 2:6 Hence Yahweh said to Satan, Behold him in your hand; yea, but keep his soul alive.

Not the answer. Who's anger is kindled against Israel? Who moved David to number Israel?

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.


Who does this verse say stood against Israel, and provoked David?

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

How do you reconcile this. Jesus is NOT Satan. What did God say to do?

Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.


We must reason we must reason with the Word? Because of the mystery we have before us in the scriptures.

Isaiah 28:20For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

21For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

That mystery, that strange act, is declared from the beginning.

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Both light and darkness were in the beginning with God, but no more. Why do you think this was recorded about the angel Michael?

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

If Michael, the greatest of angels DARED not stand up to Satan, what did Michael know, as Jude did, and you can not accept as a vague possibility? It is mind boggling to understand the two cherubs that cover the mercy seat for what they stand for, opposing one another.

Hard to put new wine in old bottles, old bottles are content and hardened in what they contain.

Taking the two verses together, here is what you get in the Youngs Literal Translation. In my KJV it has in the reference the word "Satan".

YLT 2 Samuel 24:1 And the anger of Jehovah addeth to burn against Israel, and an adversary moveth David about them, saying, 'Go, number Israel and Judah.'

We know that God is in control of Satan and whatever Satan does was directed by God. It's simple.

CHB

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 07, 2008, 10:26:37 PM
Not the answer.

Do you believe God is in control of everything or not?   

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 06:52:46 PM
Willi, why do you keep going off topic on this thread? There is another, readily available thread about tares in this format. You have no answer to the two scriptures that are the subject on this one??

I feel no obligation to you whatsoever...

You ANSWER ME NOT, then ask me questions?  :thumbdown:  Sorry... you are not deserving of any ANSWERS from me until you are willing to ANSWER questions  yourself... irregardless of the thread and its proposals...

 No way to reconcile these verses with scripture and only saying "we know " without any proof is an answer to this very real apparent contradiction?All your questions were answered many times in many places, and you, seeing do not see. Too bad, but that's the way it is.
You have confusion of faces when it comes to God.
Which face do you see?
This one,

Exodus 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Or this one?

Luke 17:3Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

4And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

5And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

This post will be in TWO PARTS...

PART ONE:

You wish me to address this thread PT?  Hereyago!  :cloud9:

Though I do not agree fully with the writing I post below, ...I find it for the most part, true, and certainly very informative, as well as being an observation which sees far more clearly than your limited viewpoint dusty...

I have earmarked below in RED that which I find disagreement with, and you shall see it is VERY LITTLE... My comments to those portions are in ...[black]

Most of my clarifications are to the end that "satan" is ADVERSITY within Man, a principality of DISOBEDIENCE which is ADVERSE to the command of GOD, and NOT a SPIRIT "being"... (these shall I pose in BLUE as they occur over and over)

I know YOU shall not read this through if at all, dusty (as listening is not a capacity in your grasp)... but for those who wish to find wisdom, here is an exerpt written by J. Preston Eby... which exposes this FALSE "two LORD" system of Peacetroll's, ...in this thread...

As PAUL noted there is:

(Eph 4:5-6)

5...ONE LORD (not 2!), ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM,

6...ONE GOD and Father of ALL, who is above ALL, and through ALL, and IN you ALL!


J. Preston Eby wrote:


THE LEFT HAND OF GOD [satan/principality of adversity]

That "all things are of God" is declared over and over again in the Bible. Did not the Lord say to Pharaoh, that wicked man of rebellion against all that was of God, "Even for this same purpose have I RAISED YOU UP, that I might show MY POWER in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth?" (Rom. 9:17).

The infinite wisdom of God's mind cannot be ascertained by these carnal little heads of ours. We must banish our childish theology and bring our minds into harmony with the mind of Christ. We must begin to peer through the mighty telescope of God's wisdom as it looks through the vast universe of good and evil until heavenly light bursts with blazing brilliance upon our inquiring spirits and we see with crystal clear vision that God is in all things, and is responsible for all things, including all the so-called evil things as well as good things. Is it not a fearful thing to say that evil is of God? There is nothing fearful about this view unless the TRUTH be fearful!

I would not be surprised if some of the compatriots of the prophet Amos may have thought he was speaking blasphemy when by the Holy Spirit he said, "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be EVIL in a city, and THE LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?" (Amos 3:6). There are untold millions of Christians who do not like to believe that A-L-L  T-H-I-N-G-S  A-R-E  O-F  G-O-D - including evil. They much prefer to believe, as the harlot system has taught them, that God created good, and the devil created evil!

Why, Oh why can men not believe the simple, unvarnished Word of God? Ah, we have God's own Word for it - His positive statement that HE CREATES EVIL. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL. I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS" (Isa. 45:7).

God creates evil! It cannot be! But here it is in the Word. What will you do with it, beloved? "We must explain it somehow," the fundamentalist says, "surely it cannot mean that GOD creates evil, sin, sinners, devils, famines, pestilences, calamities, judgments, wrongdoing!" But the word here for "evil" is the Hebrew word "ra" which is used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin, and all other evil things. In some five hundred passages it is so used!

It solves most all problems to realize that all the forces of good and evil are directly under the HAND and CONTROL of God.

Then we can see that God has PURPOSE in it all, and that no evil forces can ever go beyond the bounds of the limits set by God to accomplish His purpose. It is not even a question of how much God PERMITS. The fact is that God creates just the right amount and kind of evil in order to bring His will to pass fully and completely in all He does. But let us UNDERSTAND! The good that God uses COMES OUT FROM GOD.

The evil that God uses is CREATED by God only for the purpose that He has for it. The Bible states that God IS GOOD, IS LIFE, IS LIGHT, etc. Nowhere does the Bible say that God IS EVIL, only that He CREATES evil. There is a vast difference. Having been used of God, He then brings it to naught.

One of the fundamental laws of creation is that an OPPOSING FORCE is necessary for growth, and to produce strength, stamina, and endurance. Any living thing that grows up without any opposition is weak and powerless.

God's NEW CREATION must be strong and powerful, and anything that desires to be strong, or anyone, must wrestle with a force that is contrary to them. Any man who wants to develop muscular power and be strong, must spend weeks and months and years in vigorous training doing heavy exercises, lifting heavy weights, using the OPPOSING FORCE of gravity to DEVELOP HIS STRENGTH.

A plant that grows in the greenhouse sheltered from the winds and rains, pampered day after day, may grow large, but it is inherently weak, and if suddenly exposed to the elements will wither and die. But a plant that is constantly exposed to the fierce winds and pounding rains, burning heat and chilling cold, is strong and not easily destroyed.

Saints, if we would be the SONS OF THE MOST HIGH we must be STRONG in the Lord and in the power of HIS might! Our Father wants us to be strong, so He has wisely given us WRESTLING PARTNERS to wrestle with, so we will become strong.

These are NEGATIVE FORCES (thank God for them!) that come from the LEFT HAND of God. Some of these adverse things are the principalities and powers in the heavenlies. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places" (Eph. 6:12).

There is a great and magnificent future ahead for the Sons of God, and a great work our Father has for us to do in the ages to come, and He is preparing us and making us ready for the high and holy place He has for us. Can we not see that ALL THE NEGATIVE OPPOSING FORCES WE NOW ENCOUNTER are working together for our good - to develop the strength, character, wisdom, and power we must have?

The chastenings and judgments of God, too, are negative, though they do bring forth a positive result. The positive work of God from the realm of His right hand lies in the inner anointing, guidance, enlightening, etc., and in the precious outward ministries, those the Lord sets in the body for our exhortation, edification, and comfort.

The Scriptures speak much about these positive ministries, which are all wonderful, sweet, and of great importance in the eyes of God. However, there is the work of purging, pruning, discipline, dealing, and training which must be fulfilled in each and every one of God's Sons; therefore in the work of God there is an additional part, the negative, opposing forces, from the LEFT HAND OF GOD!

END of PART ONE...

willieH: Hello... :hithere:

PART TWO:

The positive work of God is wrought directly by the Holy Spirit within or by the Spirit through His anointed ministries. The negative work of God is brought about by Satan, [I disagree that "satan" is a "spirit being", nor are other demons "spirit beings"] his co-horts, his instruments, and the whole negative realm of evil.

All the people, things, and happenings used in the chastening and judgments of God are of Satan's [adversity as a principality] manipulation.

For example, if someone is opposing us and causing us trouble, this opposition or trouble is directly the work of Satan. Again, a thief who steals our money, or a fire which burns down our house, is the work of the adversary [which is in our makeup].

If someone is obstinate, rebellious and sins against God, and as a result becomes seriously ill, this sickness is a work of the devil. [adversity working in our experience, not a "spirit being"]

Therefore, all the people, things, and happenings involved in the discipline and judgment of God are measured to us by God according to our need. But the one who is manipulating and acting upon us in order to harm us is Satan [adversity within us].

BUT - that which is acting BEHIND all the people, powers, things, and happenings is the HAND OF GOD, CONTROLLING all the play and interplay til HIS PURPOSE IS ACCOMPLISHED and HIS name is praised! The purpose of our experiencing the disciplines of the Father is that we know the fullness of HIS LIFE. If there were only the discipline, but not the manifestation of His life, it would be meaningless. Thus, the two hands of God bring beautiful BALANCE in the lives of all God's elect!

We see the left hand of God revealed in the life of Job. God had blessed this man with great wealth and a large family. He had seven sons and three daughters, He owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she-asses. His household was very great with many hired servants so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.

The only reliable testimony we have of Job's true state of being is that spoken by the Lord Himself, and HE declared that Job was a PERFECT AND UPRIGHT MAN, one that feared God and eschewed evil. Perfect yes, but UNTRIED, UNTESTED, and UNPROVEN, as Job himself witnessed in the midst of his ordeal, declaring, "He knows the way that I take: when He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold" (Job 23:10). His perfection remained to be fully proven, tested, and demonstrated.

Now, what does God do but deliberately hand over this perfect man into the hands of Satan [NATURAL adversity] to do his [It's] worst upon him. It was because God desired to test Job that He brought forth "the smith to blow the coals upon the fire." Please note that it was not Satan's idea [this is because a principle is not sentient, nor devises, it is utilized] to persecute poor old Job! Oh, no!

It was God Himself who brought up the subject! There Satan [adversity] was, presenting himself [itself] before the Lord, appearing for duty, and God asked, "Where have you been?" Satan replied, "Walking up and down in the earth" [adversity is within and amongst "earth" which is men made of dust] (no mention of Job at all).

"Well, Satan [adversity]," the Lord asked, "Have you considered My servant Job? Have you noticed that he eschews evil and fears God? Have you noticed that, Satan [adversity]?" You can be assured, dear ones, that Satan HAD noticed Job, but he wasn't doing anything to him.

Satan [adversity] responds, saying, "Have You not made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth YOUR HAND now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse You to Your face!"

And the Lord said unto Satan [adversity], "Behold, all that he has is in YOUR POWER; only upon himself put not forth YOUR HAND." Having received these orders, Satan [adversity] departed from the presence of the Lord.

Hear it! "But put forth YOUR HAND now." What was that that Satan [adversity] said?

Did he ask permission to put forth his OWN HAND and touch Job? Not at all! He said, YOUR hand," or "God, you put forth YOUR HAND and touch him."

He is not asking to be allowed to touch Job. But he challenged God to stretch out HIS HAND, and that if HE touched Job and took away his blessing [adversity thereby allowed], Job would curse Him to His face.

Then the Lord said to Satan [adversity], "All that he has is in your power; only upon himself put not forth YOUR HAND." Can we not see by this that Satan [adversity]was the NEGATIVE FORCE through which GOD WAS MOVING UPON JOB, and is it not clear that this was the LEFT HAND of God as He was working with Job to bring him into yet a higher place than he had occupied hitherto?

Though Satan moved swiftly against Job, GOD WAS DOING THIS and His intention was to do Job good. This was not Satan [adversity]acting out his [it's] own little plan in rebellion against God, but this was Satan [adversity] as the LEFT HAND of God doing it!

In the second chapter of Job we find all this repeated. Again the sons of God have come before God to report on their activities, and again Satan comes among them.

Again Job is presented to Satan by God as a perfect and upright man. We now quote from Job 2:4-6. "And Satan answered the Lord and said, Skin for skin, yea all that a man has will he give for his life.

But put forth YOUR HAND now and touch his bone and his flesh and he will curse You to Your face. And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in YOUR HAND; but save his life."

Now Job's body will be wracked with disease and tortured with pain, and he will lose his reputation before all men. His good works will be forgotten and he will become the object of ridicule from those who were formerly his friends.

We would now draw your reverent attention to the magnificent words which reveal Job's reaction to all this. "Then said his wife unto him, Do you still retain your integrity? Curse God and die! But he said unto her, You speak as one of the foolish women speaks.

What? shall we receive good at the HAND OF GOD and shall we not receive evil? IN ALL THIS DID NOT JOB SIN WITH HIS LIPS" (Job. 2:9-10).

Notice! Job never did recognize any such person as Satan [which is my point] in all his trouble.

He recognized ONLY GOD in this and said that even as he had received good from the HAND OF GOD was it not logical that he should receive EVIL ALSO FROM GOD?

What faith! What marvelous UNDERSTANDING! Job actually attributes all this evil to the work of God.

He doesn't even recognize Satan as doing anything, no sitting on the ash heap moaning, "The old devil has been after me all week!" [which again, makes my point that satan is NOT a being]

It will be an appalling shock to many precious people to learn that in ALL this Job did NOT SIN with his lips! [but nothing is said, of HIS HEART?]

We have every right to conclude from this that Job was speaking the absolute truth when he attributed all this evil to God. What he had said was right in the sight of God. No place did the Lord rebuke Job for his words in any way. In fact, in the end of the experience God said that Job had spoken RIGHTLY of Him and ALL OTHERS HAD NOT.

Job has yet a further word on all this and let us see what it is. "Have pity upon me, O   my friends: for the HAND OF GOD HAS TOUCHED ME" (Job 19:21).

The hand of who? The hand of God! WHICH hand of God? Why, beloved, it was the LEFT HAND of God! Job knew that the hand of God had not been laid upon him for good, but for evil.

Yet he recognizes it as THE HAND OF GOD. Prior to this experience, Job had known nothing but the RIGHT HAND of God in good and blessing, in the anointing of God. There had been no adversity. [again establishing my point]

There had been no testing. No severity. Now God has begun using His left hand in His dealing with Job, yet Job still recognizes it as God's hand. What wisdom and understanding!

The nominal Church and its preachers try to make us believe that Satan conspired to do all this to poor old Job by his own design.

But it was God, my friend, and Satan was only the LEFT HAND of God, or the negative means God used.

These people have no knowledge at all of what they are talking about. They know nothing of the ways and the workings of God. They have exalted Satan to godhood, giving HIM the glory for all he does, and, indeed, in most things, they attribute more power to him and praise him more than they do God!

Ignorantly these foolish ones talk about poor little God "trying" to do this and that, while the shrewder and smarter devil slips up on God's blind side and demolishes His whole work. Rubbish!

Dear saints of God, don't believe for one moment that anything in all God's great universe in not in the control of HIS HANDS or part of His plan.

God IS GOD, He IS in full control of every sphere of activity, and Satan himself is under the province of God. May the blessed Holy Spirit enlighten our minds to perceive the truth that Satan has no power at all except that which God delegates to him [IT].

My friend, if you believe that Satan is a problem to Almighty God, then your God is entirely too small! Oh yes, those who would be Sons of God MUST OVERCOME HIM [IT].

Beloved, when that purpose is accomplished, you will have been fully dealt with by God's LEFT HAND, that you might be exalted to a place of eminence, glory, and power at GOD'S RIGHT HAND! Hallelujah!

The left hand of God is manifested through a people, those in the kingdom of darkness. The right hand of God is likewise revealed through a people, the Sons of the Kingdom.

Thank God! we are not called to be a part of the left hand company. "If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, WHERE CHRIST SITS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth" (Col. 3:1-2).

"Him that overcomes will I grant to sit WITH ME IN MY THRONE, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev. 3:21). "The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the RIGHT HAND of the Lord does valiantly, the RIGHT HAND of the Lord is exalted" (Ps. 118:15-16).

Although at this time there is humiliation and suffering, there is coming a time of exaltation, already experienced within. Although today it seems as though not much is happening outwardly, yet there is a time approaching when GOD'S RIGHT HAND COMPANY shall step forth in the fullness of the power of HIS THRONE and there shall be a manifestation of the "greater works" Jesus spoke of.

When on earth, the firstborn Son suffered reproach and finally death - but where is He now? Exalted to the RIGHT HAND of the Father, far above all principalities and powers, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but in that which is to come.

He passed through a season of shame and reproach, but dwells now in a glory that can never fade. And there is a place with Him and in Him for all who overcome, a place of glory and eminence and power at the right hand of God for all who move on into God!

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 07, 2008, 10:26:37 PM
Not the answer. Who's anger is kindled against Israel? Who moved David to number Israel?

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.


Who does this verse say stood against Israel, and provoked David?

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

How do you reconcile this. Jesus is NOT Satan. What did God say to do?

Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.


We must reason we must reason with the Word? Because of the mystery we have before us in the scriptures.

Isaiah 28:20For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

21For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

That mystery, that strange act, is declared from the beginning.

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Both light and darkness were in the beginning with God, but no more. Why do you think this was recorded about the angel Michael?

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

If Michael, the greatest of angels DARED not stand up to Satan, what did Michael know, as Jude did, and you can not accept as a vague possibility? It is mind boggling to understand the two cherubs that cover the mercy seat for what they stand for, opposing one another.

Hard to put new wine in old bottles, old bottles are content and hardened in what they contain.

More confused and pointless nothing from one with no understanding...  :thumbdown:

Continuing to NOT answer those posing questions to him...  :thumbdown:

Having a discussion with himself...  :sigh:

Normal DISCUSSION: 

Proposal:  Here is what I think, ...what do you think? 
Answer:  Really? Here is what I think, ...but what about this?
Proposals Reply:  I see where you're coming from, but how do you explain ...this?
Answer:  This is what I think about that... etc. etc...

Here is PT's "discussion" method:  Here is what I think, ...it doesn't matter what you think... whatever you think, I will ignore... Because what I think is RIGHT, and whatever you think by comparison to what I think, ...IS WRONG...  :pointlaugh:
                       

Ignor all you want, Willi. When the blind lead the blind they both wind up in the ditch.
You have no clue about the topic, just accusations and self righteousness.

willieH:   :sigh:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 08, 2008, 03:51:56 AM
Ignor all you want, Willi. When the blind lead the blind they both wind up in the ditch.

Much like the Pharisees did, so do YOU, ...declining to admit their blindness as CHRIST noted it to them, and their ancestors carry on in that darkness to this day...  :sigh:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 08, 2008, 03:51:56 AMYou have no clue about the topic, just accusations and self righteousness.

Self righteousness?  :laughing7: 

I hold that GOD loves ALL... you on the other hand, find yourself on the inside of the UNBIBLICAL stance of TWO separate human races, one ADAMIC and the other, well for want of a better title... SERPENT SEED...

And so convenient to yourSELF, just like "ET'ers", position yourSELF, on the safety of the INSIDE (wheat/saved) looking OUT at the danger imposed upon the  condemned (tares/unsaved)...

GOD just "picked you" to be on "His team" -- eh?  Explain the reasoning...  :dontknow:  Why YOU?  Why not Hitler?  Why were YOU not "picked to be" Hitler?  :thumbdown:

NONSENSE is the description of your proposals... Just another viewpoint which conveniently WITHOUT REASON, includes SELF as SAVED, ...and within that view, WITHOUT REASON, observes others as BURN material...  :thumbdown:

Accusations?  :laughing7:

I only state the truth about you and your "discussion" method brother D... You are given the opportunity to look into a mirror, and then refuse to acknowledge that it is YOU which is reflected IN IT...  :sigh:

You fail to discuss, and blab more and more UNFOUNDED nonsense such as TWO LORDS, in your continuing IGNORANCE of those IN the discussion... Failing to answer questions which is PART of what a DISCUSSION is...

Your "TWO LORD" fallacy as noted in your "OP"... contradicts the words of Scripture which state there is but,  ...ONE LORD... (Eph 4:5)

JESUS is the SAME yesterday today and forever... (Heb 13:8)... The WORD does not mean ONE thing in the OT, then change to another in the NT...  The OT is the NATURAL which preceeds the NT which is SPIRITUAL... You, to this point have failed to gain insight to this and carnality permeates your words in that failure...

He is the WORD, ...that WORD does not state one thing, then contradict itself elsewhere, ...except in the minds of the DECIEVED, which conveniently CONCOCT the lie that there are TWO Lords in the OT, and ONE in the NT...

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 04, 2008, 11:01:00 PM
2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD  was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

What do you all say to this?

As I've tried to explain so many times, Satan is also a Lord, not my Lord but the LORD of many (The tares).  If you can wipe away your bias and indoctrinations long enough to see this obvious and outright connection and explaination of who the LORD who directed David in 2 Samuel 24:1 to number Israel actually is...will understand something that escapes the world  at large, the fact that Satan is actually the LORD many times who speaks  throughout the old testament!

Only by the blessing and grace of Jesus Christ can we discern between the two LORDS in the Old testament.

As usual, not much to report here...  :pitiful:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 07, 2008, 07:36:14 PM

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 07, 2008, 06:28:11 PM
Still, after all the posts we have done, you, and I, the heart of the question has not been addressed.
What is the meaning of these two contradicting scriptures? What are you supposed to see and face?

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Hint:  People think those contradict if they have not been drawn to see that God is in control of "EV-ER-Y-THING"

Verse hint:
Job 2:6 Hence Yahweh said to Satan, Behold him in your hand; yea, but keep his soul alive.

Quote from: bobf on June 05, 2008, 04:40:56 AM

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 01:19:42 AMHow do you explain these two witnesses of the same event?

Simple, God had Satan move David to number Israel.

Another example of this kind of thing (there are many):  God gave Paul a thorn in the flesh yet that thorn was a messenger of Satan.

Though you have mocked it and called it not an answer, that God delegates responsibility is well established in Scripture.  I have sometimes thought that because God has given everything away He can now rest on His throne and, without doing anything, run the entire universe.

Here is a behind the scenes look at a very similar situation as when God provoked David through Satan.
2 Chronicles 18: 18-22:
18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 07, 2008, 10:26:37 PM
Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

If Michael, the greatest of angels DARED not stand up to Satan, what did Michael know, as Jude did, and you can not accept as a vague possibility? It is mind boggling to understand the two cherubs that cover the mercy seat for what they stand for, opposing one another.

Michael WAS standing up to and against Satan!  He did not do it by his own speaking evil in judgment, but by deferrence to the anointing, standing in the power of the Lord's might just as is said in Jude 9.

Quote from: willieH on June 08, 2008, 04:49:29 AM
willieH:   :sigh:
You fail to discuss, and blab more and more UNFOUNDED nonsense such as TWO LORDS, in your continuing IGNORANCE of those IN the discussion... Failing to answer questions which is PART of what a DISCUSSION is...

Your "TWO LORD" fallacy as noted in your "OP"... contradicts the words of Scripture which state there is but,  ...ONE LORD... (Eph 4:5)

JESUS is the SAME yesterday today and forever... (Heb 13:8)... The WORD does not mean ONE thing in the OT, then change to another in the NT...  The OT is the NATURAL which preceeds the NT which is SPIRITUAL... You, to this point have failed to gain insight to this and carnality permeates your words in that failure...

He is the WORD, ...that WORD does not state one thing, then contradict itself elsewhere, ...except in the minds of the DECIEVED, which conveniently CONCOCT the lie that there are TWO Lords in the OT, and ONE in the NT...

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 04, 2008, 11:01:00 PM
As I've tried to explain so many times, Satan is also a Lord, not my Lord but the LORD of many (The tares).  If you can wipe away your bias and indoctrinations long enough to see this obvious and outright connection and explaination of who the LORD who directed David in 2 Samuel 24:1 to number Israel actually is...will understand something that escapes the world  at large, the fact that Satan is actually the LORD many times who speaks  throughout the old testament!

Only by the blessing and grace of Jesus Christ can we discern between the two LORDS in the Old testament.

As usual, not much to report here...  :pitiful:

...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

Only by the blessing and grace of Jesus Christ can we discern there are not two LORDS period!!!

Lord is Adonai, not IEUE!!! No "2 Lords!!!"

LORD is IEUE, not Adonai!!!  No "2 LORDS!!!"

"IEUE is our ALUEIM."


I doubt it helps peacetroll if I continue reiterating Scripture.  He doesn't appear to hear with a heart to be more accurately adjusted to the Truth.  Not only is his doctrine dangerous deception for some, there is benefit in observing to obey:
Titus 3:9-11:
9 But avoid foolish (moros adj. meaning dull, not acute) questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 07, 2008, 11:31:08 PM
No way to reconcile these verses with scripture and only saying "we know " without any proof is an answer to this very real apparent contradiction?

You see a contradiction because you only see words.    Relative vs Absolute.   God is in control of EV-ER-Y-THING.   His ways(absolute) are not our ways (relative).

If you don't see one day you will see.

Quote from: PeacetrollOnly by the blessing and grace of Jesus Christ can we discern between the two LORDS in the Old testament.

Scripture is clear that there is only one LORD. Jesus even added this to "the greatest Commandment speech".

Mar 12:28  One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?"
Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

Now let's look at this relationship between the One LORD and His Son...

Psalms 110:1 is an important O.T. verse that Has God telling us His relationship to His Son.

The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Psa 110:1) A Psalm of David.

Psalms 110:1 is a unusual verse. It is referred to in the New Testament 23 times and is thus quoted much more often than any other verse from the Old Testament.  It's importance must not be overlooked.  It is a psalm that tells us the relationship between God and Jesus.  Psalms 110:1 is a divine utterance although poorly translated if your version leaves out the original word "oracle".  It is "the oracle of Yahweh" (the One God of the Hebrew Bible, of Judaism and New Testament Christianity) to David's lord who is the Messiah, spoken of here 1000 years before he came into existence in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

I want to bring attention to the fact that David's lord is not David's Lord.  There should be no capital on the word "lord."  The Revised Version of the Bible (1881) corrected the misleading error of other translations which put (and still wrongly put) a capitol L on lord in that verse. He is not Lord God, because the word in the inspired text is not the word for Deity, but the word for human superior- a human lord, not a Lord who is himself God, but a lord who is the supremely exalted, unique agent of the one God.

The Hebrew word for the status of the son of God and Psalms 110:1 is adoni. This word occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible and never refers to God.  When God is described as "the Lord" (capital L) a different word, Adonai, appears.  Thus the Bible makes a careful distinction between God and man.  God is the Lord God (Adonai), or when his personal name is used, Yahweh, and Jesus is his unique, sinless, virginally conceived human son (adoni, my lord, Luke 1:43; 2:11). Adonai is found 449 times in the Old Testament and distinguishes the One God from all others. Adonai is not the word describing the son of God, Jesus, in Psalms 110:1. adoni appears 195 times and refers only to a human (or occasionally an angelic) lord, that is, someone who is not God. This should cut through a lot of complicated post Biblical argumentation and create a making which in subtle ways that secures the simple and most basic Biblical truth, that God is a single person and that the Messiah is the second Adam, "the Man Messiah" (1 Tim. 2:5).

Let's have a look at a few Old Testament verses that show us the clear distinction alluded to here.  In Genesis 15:2, Abraham prays to God and says,  "O LORD, God  [Adonai Yahweh], what will you give me, since I am childless?"  In another prayer Abraham's servant addresses God:  "O LORD, God of my lord Abraham, please grant me success today" (Gen. 24:12). The second word for "my lord" here is adoni which according to any standard Hebrew lexicon means "Lord," "Master," or "owner."  Another example is found in David's speech to his men after he had cut off the hem of King Saul's robe and his conscience bothered him: "So he said to his men, far be it from me because of the Lord[here the word is Yahweh, Lord God] that I should do this thing to my lord [adoni]."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, page 157. states "The form Adoni ('my lord'), a royal title (Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title Adonai ('Lord') used of Yahweh. Adonai the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adoni [with short vowel] = 'my lords.'"  Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 3, page 137. States "lord in the Old Testament is used to translate Adonai when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word has a suffix [with a special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction... between divine and human appellative."

If David the Psalmist had expected the Messiah to be the Lord God he would not have used "my lord" (adoni), but the term used exclusively for the one God, Jehovah- Adonai. Unfortunately, though, many English translations which faithfully preserved this distinction elsewhere capitalize the second "lord" only in Psalms 110:1. This gives a misleading impression that the word is a divine title.

Both the Pharisees and Jesus knew that this inspired verse was crucial in the understanding of the identity of the promised Messiah.  Jesus quoted it to show the Messiah would be both the son (descendent) of King David and David's "lord" (see Matt. 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44). This key verse, then, quoted more than any other in the New Testament, authorizes the title "lord" for Jesus.  Failure to understand this distinction has led to the erroneous idea that whenever the New Testament calls Jesus "Lord" it means he is the Lord God of the Old Testament.

Quote from: Peacetroll2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

What do you all say to this?

I would say, you need to ask a different question.  Where does evil come from?  :wink2:



Paul

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. --Isaiah 45


12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. --Acts 4



10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.--Phil 2



Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [YHVH], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.



1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. --Matt 3



22Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. --John 1



5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.--Romans 9

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 05, 2008, 06:52:46 PM
Bob, Satan used his position as the right arm to do what he did to Job.

I know that Satan smote Job.  My point is that even though Satan did it, both Job and God attributed those events to God.

"thou movest Me against him to destroy him without cause"
"the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away"
"shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

So the book of Job attributes the same events to both Satan and God, just like your OP.

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 07, 2008, 11:31:08 PMNo way to reconcile these verses with scripture and only saying "we know " without any proof is an answer to this very real apparent contradiction?

PT, there is no "very real apparent contradcition" at all.  Not in the least.  You only think there is a contradiction because you have inadvertently made this false assumption:

- A given event can have only one causer.

But throughout scripture there are many examples where one event has God as the causer (doing good) and other agents as the causer (doing evil).

How many more examples would you like?

 Well, we've all made our beliefs clear about this thread. One last thing. How did the subject of this next scripture accomplish what it says he did?

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

How did he do it? How did he decieve the whole world?

God is in control of everything.

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event  under the heavens:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 08, 2008, 07:33:29 PM
Well, we've all made our beliefs clear about this thread. One last thing. How did the subject of this next scripture accomplish what it says he did?

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

How did he do it? How did he decieve the whole world?

That's a really good question, PT.  If I look around today and ask what is deceiving/corrupting man today, I see 1)money (currency), 2)religious deceptions, 3) political and societal power, 4) constant lies being told to the people by print and electronic media.  Jesus gives us two potent ways in which satan deceives the whole world:  murder (you kill the guy telling the truth) and lies.

What I see is the whole world thinking he is God the Father. Look at how the peoples of the world have slaughtered each other in the name of God.

As Jesus said:

John 17:25
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.[/color]

Yes, I agree, PT.  Plus, satan is deceiving people who want to be deceived, because they want the perqs...

..you will be like God...

--Genesis 3

And, they don't have a clue who God really is.

John 11:35
Jesus wept.

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 08, 2008, 07:33:29 PM
Well, we've all made our beliefs clear about this thread. One last thing. How did the subject of this next scripture accomplish what it says he did?

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

How did he do it? How did he decieve the whole world?

CAST OUT?  Read the Word dusty... (John 12:31)

"He" didn't "DO" anything...

The WHOLE WORLD is SELF-DECIEVED... "satan" is ADVERSITY within MAN... (James 1:14 / Rom 7:23) it is in the WILL of MAN which transgresses (of ITSELF), the command of GOD...

Until CHRIST is revealed in us, and HE "makes us FREE" (John 14:6 / John 8:32)...we remain decieved ... as we dwell in the thinking our "will" is "free", and/or can be categorized as "good"...

This is ("satan") -- SELF DECEPTION, ...for the WORD of GOD states the HEART of MAN to be (of itself) DESPARATELY WICKED (Jer 17:9)

JESUS plainly noted that it was HIS WILL which was continually that which He suppressed in favor of the WILL of the Father...

In order to be HIS FOLLOWERS, we must DO (Matt 12:50) and PRAY (Matt 6:10) the same as did HE:

WILL? ...(John 6:38 / John 5:30) CHRIST plainly noted that it was HIS WILL which was essentially DORMANT, its only action being submission to YHVH... stating HIS WORKS were not His, but were reflections of the FATHER, so in essence ARE the WORK of YHVH...

FOLLOWING? ...(Matt 7:21 / John 14:10) CHRIST followed YHVH, if we follow CHRIST, we THEREBY, follow YHVH!

You just either CANNOT SEE or WILL NOT SEE... one or the other dusty...

You are prayed for brother...  :Pray:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 08, 2008, 07:40:36 PM
God is in control of everything.

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event  under the heavens:

AMEN Paul...  :goodpost:

You must be delusional willi. God gave the scriptures and they cannot be broken.  Satan is very real or all the scriptures are false.

Could self deception offer Jesus the world, or be cast out of heaven with his angels? Or intimidate Michael into calling on the Lord to rebuke him? Or have Jesus Himself say that he was a murderer from the beginning, and when he speaks he lies?

You put great faith supposedly in what you think Paul taught then reject what he said.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 2:11
Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

willieH:  Howdy dustbucket!  :happygrin:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 08, 2008, 10:05:23 PM
You must be delusional willi. God gave the scriptures and they cannot be broken.  Satan is very real or all the scriptures are false.

I do not observe "satan" ...as not "real"... you should try reading once in a while dusty.  I deny that IT is a "being"...

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 08, 2008, 10:05:23 PMCould self deception offer Jesus the world

It decieves men EVERY DAY dusty... JESUS was in ALL POINTS tempted as are we... (Heb 4:15)

GOD cannot be TEMPTED... (James 1:13) 

Temptation, according to Scripture, emerges from within a MAN (James 1:14 - EVERY MAN / Rom 7:23 in MEMBERS/flesh)...

CHRIST JESUS, was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 08, 2008, 10:05:23 PMor be cast out of heaven with his angels?

You observe SYMBOLIC and SPIRITUAL writings with LITERAL and CARNAL eyes dusty...

The "heaven" these were "cast out of" was not the DOMAIN of HOLINESS in which GOD IS and resides...

It is the domain of INIQUITY which the Father places below the FEET of His Son... (1 Cor 15:28)

This "heaven" is found to be the TEMPLE of GOD, which is MAN... and the "satan"/ adversity within that TEMPLE is that which is CAST OUT... by the presence of the LIGHT which is CHRIST...

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 08, 2008, 10:05:23 PMOr intimidate Michael into calling on the Lord to rebuke him?

You dial up "intimidation" in this observance and fail to see that ALL POWER is of GOD dusty (Rom 13:1)... and that MICHAEL calls upon the ONLY SOURCE which CAN rebuke ADVERSITY...

How could ANY thing intimidate the messenger of GOD?  You deny the Scriptures continually... If GOD be FOR US, ...who, can be AGAINST US?  Try reading it some time dusty...

No ANGEL does anything of HIMSELF dusty... ALL things are OF GOD... you just delude yourself... into thinking things are OUTSIDE Him and His power...

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 08, 2008, 10:05:23 PMOr have Jesus Himself say that he was a murderer from the beginning, and when he speaks he lies?

It ("satan") is not a "he"... ADVERSITY (satan) is that which brings forth SIN, which brings forth DEATH... it MURDERS us by its BONDAGE of us within the flesh, emerging from the desires OF the flesh... This has been so FROM the BEGINNING dusty... from ADAM... on down to you and I...

The pronoun designations in Scripture such as he, she, it, they, them, etc... (you should know this, but obviously you do not)... are NOT FOUND in the original GREEK and HEBREW languages...

Show me in the LEXICON of your choice... "HE" in Greek, or Hebrew...  :dontknow: 

Therefore ..."IT"... is as valid an ENGLISH pronoun to use, as is "HE"...

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 08, 2008, 10:05:23 PMYou put great faith supposedly in what you think Paul taught then reject what he said.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Poor dusty... you just don't get it doya, bro? :mnah: :sigh:

I completely AGREE with what Paul says in this verse... I just diagree with YOUR OBSERVATION of what his words say...

The Principality of ADVERSITY (satan) ...IS... the "ruler of darkness" in this world dusty...

It is MEN, making SINFUL decisions... and those who gravitate to the SPIRITUAL, certainly DO "wrestle" with these decisions... (see Romans 7 -- entire chapter)

The SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS in HIGH places is the WILL of MAN (the temple of the Holy Spirit) which transgresses of its own volition, ...the stated COMMAND of GOD!

We are CHILDREN of the MOST HIGH God dusty... what HIGHER PLACE can there be, than the TEMPLE of GOD?   

When you sin dusty, is there some red guy with a pitchfork twisting your arm?  :laughing7:  Please! :rolleye:

Or is it that YOU have a desire which is prompted (not by the red guy), but BY YOUR FLESH... which debases your behavior into SIN? As is NOTED in the Bible ...James 1:14

You empower a MYTH (even to the degree of calling "satan" a "LORD"  :thumbdown:)... and give IT god-like attributes... making it OMNIPRESENT, giving it VICTORY where Scripture states IT's DEFEAT,crediting IT, instead of the ALMIGHTY...

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 08, 2008, 10:05:23 PM2 Corinthians 2:11
Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Again, I remind you that no such pronoun as "HIS", exists in Greek... "IT's" is just as valid a view of "satan" in this verse, as is the word "HIS"...

This verse can be correctly translated:

(2 Cor 2:11) ...Lest ADVERSITY should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of IT's devices.  :thumbsup:


...willieH  :cloud9:

Hi all

I sometimes wonder if the majority of the world started to believe "all is saved" if there would be still separate denominations. For those who believe that there is a satan and those who did not. For those who believe Jesus is God and those who did not. Would it then become organizations where one organization would believe they are better than the next because they believe they are right and the next organization is wrong.

I believe that there is a real satan for us to be concerned about. Not just something that is inside of us or wherever "it or he or maybe even a she" is to be. I believe that Jesus is Jesus and is a separate entity from God. Off and on I study these different things and if God wants me to think differently he will show me the way to that truth if it is to be different than what I believe. With all the information I read here and other places I can only see it my way so far.

I think more important here is to be able to agree to disagree. Most important is the ability to give comfort to the people that come here to be able to love Jesus and God freely without guilt of been sent to hell and know that we are all to be saved. "Love" is the priority of all things.

Love Faith

6Thus saith the LORD [YHVH] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [YHVH] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

---Isaiah 44:6






12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

--Revelation 22




1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. --Gen 1]

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. --John 1

willieH: Hi Faith! :hithere:

Quote from: Faith on June 09, 2008, 01:40:26 AM
Hi all

I sometimes wonder if the majority of the world started to believe "all is saved" if there would be still separate denominations. For those who believe that there is a satan and those who did not. For those who believe Jesus is God and those who did not. Would it then become organizations where one organization would believe they are better than the next because they believe they are right and the next organization is wrong.

I believe that there is a real satan for us to be concerned about. Not just something that is inside of us or wherever "it or he or maybe even a she" is to be.

You are welcome to believe what you will Faith... but keep studying! :dbook:

Quote from: Faith on June 09, 2008, 01:40:26 AMI believe that Jesus is Jesus and is a separate entity from God. Off and on I study these different things and if God wants me to think differently he will show me the way to that truth if it is to be different than what I believe. With all the information I read here and other places I can only see it my way so far.

I think more important here is to be able to agree to disagree. Most important is the ability to give comfort to the people that come here to be able to love Jesus and God freely without guilt of been sent to hell and know that we are all to be saved. "Love" is the priority of all things.

Love Faith

I agree with what you say here Faith (especially your last sentence!  :friendstu:)... With the exception of "satan" as a "being" of course!

We are all "seeing through a glass darkly"... so as I often maintain... NO one is RIGHT and no one is WRONG... one is either VEILED or REVEALED in any given area.   :Book:

I also encourage others to believe as they will... but to keep on studying... It is important that we stand strong in what we believe, but it is also just as important to keep searching, and seeking God to make correction to those beliefs according as He WILLS to do so, amidst that search...  :boogie:

Thanks for the inputs

As I read other forums I see people going to revival meetings that are cropping up, esp the Tom Bently one. Or just even thinking of it. Or thinking the books like The Secret and one other that I cant right now think of the name. They all look like the could pull people in and take them way off the path even tho they have the appearance of love and self assurance. What do they search for? Are they searching for Love or a sense of belonging. This is what makes me think that Love and focusing more on the positive things are so much more important. And yes, I do agree more things need to be studied, but not at the risk we might push people away.

Love Faith