How do you explain this?

[willieH]

Not the answer. Who's anger is kindled against Israel? Who moved David to number Israel?

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.


Who does this verse say stood against Israel, and provoked David?

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

How do you reconcile this. Jesus is NOT Satan. What did God say to do?

Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.


We must reason we must reason with the Word? Because of the mystery we have before us in the scriptures.

Isaiah 28:20For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

21For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

That mystery, that strange act, is declared from the beginning.

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Both light and darkness were in the beginning with God, but no more. Why do you think this was recorded about the angel Michael?

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

If Michael, the greatest of angels DARED not stand up to Satan, what did Michael know, as Jude did, and you can not accept as a vague possibility? It is mind boggling to understand the two cherubs that cover the mercy seat for what they stand for, opposing one another.

Hard to put new wine in old bottles, old bottles are content and hardened in what they contain.

More confused and pointless nothing from one with no understanding...  :thumbdown:

Continuing to NOT answer those posing questions to him...  :thumbdown:

Having a discussion with himself...  :sigh:

Normal DISCUSSION: 

Proposal:  Here is what I think, ...what do you think? 
Answer:  Really? Here is what I think, ...but what about this?
Proposals Reply:  I see where you're coming from, but how do you explain ...this?
Answer:  This is what I think about that... etc. etc...

Here is PT's "discussion" method:  Here is what I think, ...it doesn't matter what you think... whatever you think, I will ignore... Because what I think is RIGHT, and whatever you think by comparison to what I think, ...IS WRONG...  :pointlaugh:
                       
...willieH  :icon_king:

[Peacetroll]

Ignor all you want, Willi. When the blind lead the blind they both wind up in the ditch.
You have no clue about the topic, just accusations and self righteousness.

[willieH]

willieH:   :sigh:

Ignor all you want, Willi. When the blind lead the blind they both wind up in the ditch.

Much like the Pharisees did, so do YOU, ...declining to admit their blindness as CHRIST noted it to them, and their ancestors carry on in that darkness to this day...  :sigh:

You have no clue about the topic, just accusations and self righteousness.

Self righteousness?  :laughing7: 

I hold that GOD loves ALL... you on the other hand, find yourself on the inside of the UNBIBLICAL stance of TWO separate human races, one ADAMIC and the other, well for want of a better title... SERPENT SEED...

And so convenient to yourSELF, just like "ET'ers", position yourSELF, on the safety of the INSIDE (wheat/saved) looking OUT at the danger imposed upon the  condemned (tares/unsaved)...

GOD just "picked you" to be on "His team" -- eh?  Explain the reasoning...  :dontknow:  Why YOU?  Why not Hitler?  Why were YOU not "picked to be" Hitler?  :thumbdown:

NONSENSE is the description of your proposals... Just another viewpoint which conveniently WITHOUT REASON, includes SELF as SAVED, ...and within that view, WITHOUT REASON, observes others as BURN material...  :thumbdown:

Accusations?  :laughing7:

I only state the truth about you and your "discussion" method brother D... You are given the opportunity to look into a mirror, and then refuse to acknowledge that it is YOU which is reflected IN IT...  :sigh:

You fail to discuss, and blab more and more UNFOUNDED nonsense such as TWO LORDS, in your continuing IGNORANCE of those IN the discussion... Failing to answer questions which is PART of what a DISCUSSION is...

Your "TWO LORD" fallacy as noted in your "OP"... contradicts the words of Scripture which state there is but,  ...ONE LORD... (Eph 4:5)

JESUS is the SAME yesterday today and forever... (Heb 13:8)... The WORD does not mean ONE thing in the OT, then change to another in the NT...  The OT is the NATURAL which preceeds the NT which is SPIRITUAL... You, to this point have failed to gain insight to this and carnality permeates your words in that failure...

He is the WORD, ...that WORD does not state one thing, then contradict itself elsewhere, ...except in the minds of the DECIEVED, which conveniently CONCOCT the lie that there are TWO Lords in the OT, and ONE in the NT...

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

What do you all say to this?

As I've tried to explain so many times, Satan is also a Lord, not my Lord but the LORD of many (The tares).  If you can wipe away your bias and indoctrinations long enough to see this obvious and outright connection and explaination of who the LORD who directed David in 2 Samuel 24:1 to number Israel actually is...will understand something that escapes the world at large, the fact that Satan is actually the LORD many times who speaks  throughout the old testament!

Only by the blessing and grace of Jesus Christ can we discern between the two LORDS in the Old testament.

As usual, not much to report here...  :pitiful:

...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

[reFORMer]

Still, after all the posts we have done, you, and I, the heart of the question has not been addressed.
What is the meaning of these two contradicting scriptures? What are you supposed to see and face?

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Hint:  People think those contradict if they have not been drawn to see that God is in control of "EV-ER-Y-THING"

Verse hint:
Job 2:6 Hence Yahweh said to Satan, Behold him in your hand; yea, but keep his soul alive.

How do you explain these two witnesses of the same event?

Simple, God had Satan move David to number Israel.

Another example of this kind of thing (there are many):  God gave Paul a thorn in the flesh yet that thorn was a messenger of Satan.

Though you have mocked it and called it not an answer, that God delegates responsibility is well established in Scripture.  I have sometimes thought that because God has given everything away He can now rest on His throne and, without doing anything, run the entire universe.

Here is a behind the scenes look at a very similar situation as when God provoked David through Satan.
2 Chronicles 18: 18-22:
18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

If Michael, the greatest of angels DARED not stand up to Satan, what did Michael know, as Jude did, and you can not accept as a vague possibility? It is mind boggling to understand the two cherubs that cover the mercy seat for what they stand for, opposing one another.

Michael WAS standing up to and against Satan!  He did not do it by his own speaking evil in judgment, but by deferrence to the anointing, standing in the power of the Lord's might just as is said in Jude 9.

willieH:   :sigh:
You fail to discuss, and blab more and more UNFOUNDED nonsense such as TWO LORDS, in your continuing IGNORANCE of those IN the discussion... Failing to answer questions which is PART of what a DISCUSSION is...

Your "TWO LORD" fallacy as noted in your "OP"... contradicts the words of Scripture which state there is but,  ...ONE LORD... (Eph 4:5)

JESUS is the SAME yesterday today and forever... (Heb 13:8)... The WORD does not mean ONE thing in the OT, then change to another in the NT...  The OT is the NATURAL which preceeds the NT which is SPIRITUAL... You, to this point have failed to gain insight to this and carnality permeates your words in that failure...

He is the WORD, ...that WORD does not state one thing, then contradict itself elsewhere, ...except in the minds of the DECIEVED, which conveniently CONCOCT the lie that there are TWO Lords in the OT, and ONE in the NT...

As I've tried to explain so many times, Satan is also a Lord, not my Lord but the LORD of many (The tares).  If you can wipe away your bias and indoctrinations long enough to see this obvious and outright connection and explaination of who the LORD who directed David in 2 Samuel 24:1 to number Israel actually is...will understand something that escapes the world at large, the fact that Satan is actually the LORD many times who speaks  throughout the old testament!

Only by the blessing and grace of Jesus Christ can we discern between the two LORDS in the Old testament.

As usual, not much to report here...  :pitiful:

...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

Only by the blessing and grace of Jesus Christ can we discern there are not two LORDS period!!!

Lord is Adonai, not IEUE!!! No "2 Lords!!!"

LORD is IEUE, not Adonai!!!  No "2 LORDS!!!"

"IEUE is our ALUEIM."


I doubt it helps peacetroll if I continue reiterating Scripture.  He doesn't appear to hear with a heart to be more accurately adjusted to the Truth.  Not only is his doctrine dangerous deception for some, there is benefit in observing to obey:
Titus 3:9-11:
9 But avoid foolish (moros adj. meaning dull, not acute) questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

[Paul Hazelwood]

No way to reconcile these verses with scripture and only saying "we know " without any proof is an answer to this very real apparent contradiction?

You see a contradiction because you only see words.    Relative vs Absolute.   God is in control of EV-ER-Y-THING.   His ways(absolute) are not our ways (relative).

If you don't see one day you will see.

[Pierac]

Only by the blessing and grace of Jesus Christ can we discern between the two LORDS in the Old testament.

Scripture is clear that there is only one LORD. Jesus even added this to "the greatest Commandment speech".

Mar 12:28  One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?"
Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

Now let's look at this relationship between the One LORD and His Son...

Psalms 110:1 is an important O.T. verse that Has God telling us His relationship to His Son.

The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Psa 110:1) A Psalm of David.

Psalms 110:1 is a unusual verse. It is referred to in the New Testament 23 times and is thus quoted much more often than any other verse from the Old Testament.  It's importance must not be overlooked.  It is a psalm that tells us the relationship between God and Jesus.  Psalms 110:1 is a divine utterance although poorly translated if your version leaves out the original word "oracle".  It is "the oracle of Yahweh" (the One God of the Hebrew Bible, of Judaism and New Testament Christianity) to David's lord who is the Messiah, spoken of here 1000 years before he came into existence in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

I want to bring attention to the fact that David's lord is not David's Lord.  There should be no capital on the word "lord."  The Revised Version of the Bible (1881) corrected the misleading error of other translations which put (and still wrongly put) a capitol L on lord in that verse. He is not Lord God, because the word in the inspired text is not the word for Deity, but the word for human superior- a human lord, not a Lord who is himself God, but a lord who is the supremely exalted, unique agent of the one God.

The Hebrew word for the status of the son of God and Psalms 110:1 is adoni. This word occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible and never refers to God.  When God is described as "the Lord" (capital L) a different word, Adonai, appears.  Thus the Bible makes a careful distinction between God and man.  God is the Lord God (Adonai), or when his personal name is used, Yahweh, and Jesus is his unique, sinless, virginally conceived human son (adoni, my lord, Luke 1:43; 2:11). Adonai is found 449 times in the Old Testament and distinguishes the One God from all others. Adonai is not the word describing the son of God, Jesus, in Psalms 110:1. adoni appears 195 times and refers only to a human (or occasionally an angelic) lord, that is, someone who is not God. This should cut through a lot of complicated post Biblical argumentation and create a making which in subtle ways that secures the simple and most basic Biblical truth, that God is a single person and that the Messiah is the second Adam, "the Man Messiah" (1 Tim. 2:5).

Let's have a look at a few Old Testament verses that show us the clear distinction alluded to here.  In Genesis 15:2, Abraham prays to God and says,  "O LORD, God  [Adonai Yahweh], what will you give me, since I am childless?"  In another prayer Abraham's servant addresses God:  "O LORD, God of my lord Abraham, please grant me success today" (Gen. 24:12). The second word for "my lord" here is adoni which according to any standard Hebrew lexicon means "Lord," "Master," or "owner."  Another example is found in David's speech to his men after he had cut off the hem of King Saul's robe and his conscience bothered him: "So he said to his men, far be it from me because of the Lord[here the word is Yahweh, Lord God] that I should do this thing to my lord [adoni]."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, page 157. states "The form Adoni ('my lord'), a royal title (Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title Adonai ('Lord') used of Yahweh. Adonai the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adoni [with short vowel] = 'my lords.'"  Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 3, page 137. States "lord in the Old Testament is used to translate Adonai when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word has a suffix [with a special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction... between divine and human appellative."

If David the Psalmist had expected the Messiah to be the Lord God he would not have used "my lord" (adoni), but the term used exclusively for the one God, Jehovah- Adonai. Unfortunately, though, many English translations which faithfully preserved this distinction elsewhere capitalize the second "lord" only in Psalms 110:1. This gives a misleading impression that the word is a divine title.

Both the Pharisees and Jesus knew that this inspired verse was crucial in the understanding of the identity of the promised Messiah.  Jesus quoted it to show the Messiah would be both the son (descendent) of King David and David's "lord" (see Matt. 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44). This key verse, then, quoted more than any other in the New Testament, authorizes the title "lord" for Jesus.  Failure to understand this distinction has led to the erroneous idea that whenever the New Testament calls Jesus "Lord" it means he is the Lord God of the Old Testament.

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say,
Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

What do you all say to this?

I would say, you need to ask a different question.  Where does evil come from?  :wink2:



Paul

[Molly]

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. --Isaiah 45


12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. --Acts 4



10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.--Phil 2



Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [YHVH], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.



1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. --Matt 3



22Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. --John 1



5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.--Romans 9

[bobf]

Bob, Satan used his position as the right arm to do what he did to Job.

I know that Satan smote Job.  My point is that even though Satan did it, both Job and God attributed those events to God.

"thou movest Me against him to destroy him without cause"
"the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away"
"shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

So the book of Job attributes the same events to both Satan and God, just like your OP.

[bobf]

No way to reconcile these verses with scripture and only saying "we know " without any proof is an answer to this very real apparent contradiction?

PT, there is no "very real apparent contradcition" at all.  Not in the least.  You only think there is a contradiction because you have inadvertently made this false assumption:

- A given event can have only one causer.

But throughout scripture there are many examples where one event has God as the causer (doing good) and other agents as the causer (doing evil).

How many more examples would you like?

[Peacetroll]

 Well, we've all made our beliefs clear about this thread. One last thing. How did the subject of this next scripture accomplish what it says he did?

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

How did he do it? How did he decieve the whole world?

[Paul Hazelwood]

God is in control of everything.

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:

[Molly]

Well, we've all made our beliefs clear about this thread. One last thing. How did the subject of this next scripture accomplish what it says he did?

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

How did he do it? How did he decieve the whole world?

That's a really good question, PT.  If I look around today and ask what is deceiving/corrupting man today, I see 1)money (currency), 2)religious deceptions, 3) political and societal power, 4) constant lies being told to the people by print and electronic media.  Jesus gives us two potent ways in which satan deceives the whole world:  murder (you kill the guy telling the truth) and lies.

[Peacetroll]

What I see is the whole world thinking he is God the Father. Look at how the peoples of the world have slaughtered each other in the name of God.

As Jesus said:

John 17:25
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.[/color]

[Molly]

Yes, I agree, PT.  Plus, satan is deceiving people who want to be deceived, because they want the perqs...

..you will be like God...

--Genesis 3

And, they don't have a clue who God really is.

John 11:35
Jesus wept.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

Well, we've all made our beliefs clear about this thread. One last thing. How did the subject of this next scripture accomplish what it says he did?

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

How did he do it? How did he decieve the whole world?

CAST OUT?  Read the Word dusty... (John 12:31)

"He" didn't "DO" anything...

The WHOLE WORLD is SELF-DECIEVED... "satan" is ADVERSITY within MAN... (James 1:14 / Rom 7:23) it is in the WILL of MAN which transgresses (of ITSELF), the command of GOD...

Until CHRIST is revealed in us, and HE "makes us FREE" (John 14:6 / John 8:32)...we remain decieved ... as we dwell in the thinking our "will" is "free", and/or can be categorized as "good"...

This is ("satan") -- SELF DECEPTION, ...for the WORD of GOD states the HEART of MAN to be (of itself) DESPARATELY WICKED (Jer 17:9)

JESUS plainly noted that it was HIS WILL which was continually that which He suppressed in favor of the WILL of the Father...

In order to be HIS FOLLOWERS, we must DO (Matt 12:50) and PRAY (Matt 6:10) the same as did HE:

WILL? ...(John 6:38 / John 5:30) CHRIST plainly noted that it was HIS WILL which was essentially DORMANT, its only action being submission to YHVH... stating HIS WORKS were not His, but were reflections of the FATHER, so in essence ARE the WORK of YHVH...

FOLLOWING? ...(Matt 7:21 / John 14:10) CHRIST followed YHVH, if we follow CHRIST, we THEREBY, follow YHVH!

You just either CANNOT SEE or WILL NOT SEE... one or the other dusty...

You are prayed for brother...  :Pray:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

God is in control of everything.

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:

AMEN Paul...  :goodpost:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[Peacetroll]

You must be delusional willi. God gave the scriptures and they cannot be broken.  Satan is very real or all the scriptures are false.

Could self deception offer Jesus the world, or be cast out of heaven with his angels? Or intimidate Michael into calling on the Lord to rebuke him? Or have Jesus Himself say that he was a murderer from the beginning, and when he speaks he lies?

You put great faith supposedly in what you think Paul taught then reject what he said.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 2:11
Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

[willieH]

willieH:  Howdy dustbucket!  :happygrin:

You must be delusional willi. God gave the scriptures and they cannot be broken.  Satan is very real or all the scriptures are false.

I do not observe "satan" ...as not "real"... you should try reading once in a while dusty.  I deny that IT is a "being"...

Could self deception offer Jesus the world

It decieves men EVERY DAY dusty... JESUS was in ALL POINTS tempted as are we... (Heb 4:15)

GOD cannot be TEMPTED... (James 1:13) 

Temptation, according to Scripture, emerges from within a MAN (James 1:14 - EVERY MAN / Rom 7:23 in MEMBERS/flesh)...

CHRIST JESUS, was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5

or be cast out of heaven with his angels?

You observe SYMBOLIC and SPIRITUAL writings with LITERAL and CARNAL eyes dusty...

The "heaven" these were "cast out of" was not the DOMAIN of HOLINESS in which GOD IS and resides...

It is the domain of INIQUITY which the Father places below the FEET of His Son... (1 Cor 15:28)

This "heaven" is found to be the TEMPLE of GOD, which is MAN... and the "satan"/ adversity within that TEMPLE is that which is CAST OUT... by the presence of the LIGHT which is CHRIST...

Or intimidate Michael into calling on the Lord to rebuke him?

You dial up "intimidation" in this observance and fail to see that ALL POWER is of GOD dusty (Rom 13:1)... and that MICHAEL calls upon the ONLY SOURCE which CAN rebuke ADVERSITY...

How could ANY thing intimidate the messenger of GOD?  You deny the Scriptures continually... If GOD be FOR US, ...who, can be AGAINST US?  Try reading it some time dusty...

No ANGEL does anything of HIMSELF dusty... ALL things are OF GOD... you just delude yourself... into thinking things are OUTSIDE Him and His power...

Or have Jesus Himself say that he was a murderer from the beginning, and when he speaks he lies?

It ("satan") is not a "he"... ADVERSITY (satan) is that which brings forth SIN, which brings forth DEATH... it MURDERS us by its BONDAGE of us within the flesh, emerging from the desires OF the flesh... This has been so FROM the BEGINNING dusty... from ADAM... on down to you and I...

The pronoun designations in Scripture such as he, she, it, they, them, etc... (you should know this, but obviously you do not)... are NOT FOUND in the original GREEK and HEBREW languages...

Show me in the LEXICON of your choice... "HE" in Greek, or Hebrew...  :dontknow: 

Therefore ..."IT"... is as valid an ENGLISH pronoun to use, as is "HE"...

You put great faith supposedly in what you think Paul taught then reject what he said.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Poor dusty... you just don't get it doya, bro? :mnah: :sigh:

I completely AGREE with what Paul says in this verse... I just diagree with YOUR OBSERVATION of what his words say...

The Principality of ADVERSITY (satan) ...IS... the "ruler of darkness" in this world dusty...

It is MEN, making SINFUL decisions... and those who gravitate to the SPIRITUAL, certainly DO "wrestle" with these decisions... (see Romans 7 -- entire chapter)

The SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS in HIGH places is the WILL of MAN (the temple of the Holy Spirit) which transgresses of its own volition, ...the stated COMMAND of GOD!

We are CHILDREN of the MOST HIGH God dusty... what HIGHER PLACE can there be, than the TEMPLE of GOD?   

When you sin dusty, is there some red guy with a pitchfork twisting your arm?  :laughing7:  Please! :rolleye:

Or is it that YOU have a desire which is prompted (not by the red guy), but BY YOUR FLESH... which debases your behavior into SIN? As is NOTED in the Bible ...James 1:14

You empower a MYTH (even to the degree of calling "satan" a "LORD"  :thumbdown:)... and give IT god-like attributes... making it OMNIPRESENT, giving it VICTORY where Scripture states IT's DEFEAT,crediting IT, instead of the ALMIGHTY...

2 Corinthians 2:11
Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Again, I remind you that no such pronoun as "HIS", exists in Greek... "IT's" is just as valid a view of "satan" in this verse, as is the word "HIS"...

This verse can be correctly translated:

(2 Cor 2:11) ...Lest ADVERSITY should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of IT's devices.  :thumbsup:

peaCE...
...willieH  :cloud9:

[Faith]

Hi all

I sometimes wonder if the majority of the world started to believe "all is saved" if there would be still separate denominations. For those who believe that there is a satan and those who did not. For those who believe Jesus is God and those who did not. Would it then become organizations where one organization would believe they are better than the next because they believe they are right and the next organization is wrong.

I believe that there is a real satan for us to be concerned about. Not just something that is inside of us or wherever "it or he or maybe even a she" is to be. I believe that Jesus is Jesus and is a separate entity from God. Off and on I study these different things and if God wants me to think differently he will show me the way to that truth if it is to be different than what I believe. With all the information I read here and other places I can only see it my way so far.

I think more important here is to be able to agree to disagree. Most important is the ability to give comfort to the people that come here to be able to love Jesus and God freely without guilt of been sent to hell and know that we are all to be saved. "Love" is the priority of all things.

Love Faith

[Molly]

6Thus saith the LORD [YHVH] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [YHVH] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

---Isaiah 44:6






12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

--Revelation 22




1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. --Gen 1]

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. --John 1

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Faith! :hithere:

Hi all

I sometimes wonder if the majority of the world started to believe "all is saved" if there would be still separate denominations. For those who believe that there is a satan and those who did not. For those who believe Jesus is God and those who did not. Would it then become organizations where one organization would believe they are better than the next because they believe they are right and the next organization is wrong.

I believe that there is a real satan for us to be concerned about. Not just something that is inside of us or wherever "it or he or maybe even a she" is to be.

You are welcome to believe what you will Faith... but keep studying! :dbook:

I believe that Jesus is Jesus and is a separate entity from God. Off and on I study these different things and if God wants me to think differently he will show me the way to that truth if it is to be different than what I believe. With all the information I read here and other places I can only see it my way so far.

I think more important here is to be able to agree to disagree. Most important is the ability to give comfort to the people that come here to be able to love Jesus and God freely without guilt of been sent to hell and know that we are all to be saved. "Love" is the priority of all things.

Love Faith

I agree with what you say here Faith (especially your last sentence!  :friendstu:)... With the exception of "satan" as a "being" of course!

We are all "seeing through a glass darkly"... so as I often maintain... NO one is RIGHT and no one is WRONG... one is either VEILED or REVEALED in any given area.   :Book:

I also encourage others to believe as they will... but to keep on studying... It is important that we stand strong in what we believe, but it is also just as important to keep searching, and seeking God to make correction to those beliefs according as He WILLS to do so, amidst that search...  :boogie:

peaCe...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[Faith]

Thanks for the inputs

As I read other forums I see people going to revival meetings that are cropping up, esp the Tom Bently one. Or just even thinking of it. Or thinking the books like The Secret and one other that I cant right now think of the name. They all look like the could pull people in and take them way off the path even tho they have the appearance of love and self assurance. What do they search for? Are they searching for Love or a sense of belonging. This is what makes me think that Love and focusing more on the positive things are so much more important. And yes, I do agree more things need to be studied, but not at the risk we might push people away.

Love Faith