Hey, Jude

[Doc]

I'm new to this board, though not especially new to universal restoration (although compared to many of you, I am). I've got  question to throw out there for comment. I've never seen any universalist talk about the book of Jude.
Any good universalist interpretations of this one out there?  :dontknow:

[rosered]

  Hi Tallman ,
Well Jude is a letter   right ?
and  He mentions Enoch , and We have no   testimony/prophecy  of Enoch in the OT ?
  So  why do you think that is ?  Thanks .. Rose  :icon_flower:

[martincisneros]

There's a lot of teaching on Jude throughout a lot of the Christian Universalist materials from the 17th to the 19th centuries, but I'm not sure of a specific book on Jude.  Sodom and Gomorrah are THE EXAMPLE of ETERNAL FIRE according to some of the translations.  age-lasting in the Greek, as you know, instead of eternal.  And that passage alone compared with the restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah passage in Ezekiel 16:53-55 sorta obliterates the idea of eternal punishment by itself, even if you're not 100% sure of what other passages are saying 'cause they're supposed to be THE EXAMPLE...

There's the issue in that epistle of aidios chains UNTIL the day of judgment on some of the angels.  Here's an extract from a book on the Tentmaker website books page:


There is but one Greek word beside aiónios rendered everlasting, and applied to punishment, in the New Testament, and that is the word aidios found in Jude 6: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day." This word is found in but one other place in the New Testament, viz. Rom. i:20: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead."

  Now it is admitted that this word among the Greeks had the sense of eternal, and should be understood as having that meaning wherever found, unless by express limitation it is shorn of its proper meaning. It is further admitted that had aidios occurred where aiónios does, there would be no escape from the conclusion that the New Testament teaches Endless Punishment. It is further admitted that the word is here used in the exact sense of aiónios, as is seen in the succeeding verse: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." That is to say, the "aidios" chains in verse 6 are "even as" durable as the aiónion fire" in verse 7. Which word modifies the other?

   1. The construction of the language shows that the latter word limits the former. The aidios chains are even as the aiónion fire. As if one should say "I have been infinitely troubled, I have been vexed for an hour," or "He is an endless talker, he can talk five hours on a stretch." Now while "infinitely" and "endless" convey the sense of unlimited, they are both limited by what follows, as aidios, eternal, is limited by aiónios, indefinitely long.

   2. That this is the correct exegesis is evident from still another limitation of the word. "The angels - - - he hath reserved in everlasting chains UNTO the judgement of the great day." Had Jude said that the angels are held in aidios chains, and stopped there, not limiting the word, we should not dare deny that he taught their eternal imprisonment. But when he limits the duration by aiónion and then expressly states that it is only unto a certain date, we understand that the imprisonment will terminate, even though we find applied to it a word that intrinsically signifies eternal duration, and that was used by the Greeks to convey the idea of eternity, and was attached to punishment by the Greek Jews of our Savior's times, to describe endless punishment, in which they were believers.

  But observe, while this word aidios was in universal use among the Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment, he never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never employed it. What ground then is there for saying that he adopted the language of his day on this subject? Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, he discipline, resulting in reformation.

(from The Greek Word Aion by J.W. Hanson)

[rosered]

  Thanks Martin ,
  I looked it up on the net and saw alot of debunking UR by the book of Jude and  than some  :sigh:

http://www.1john57.com/unitdefeated.htm

[Doc]

Thanks Martin, I was curious.

I did have an interesting read through Jude's letter in a Greek-English interlinear, and the ET bias in translation is fairly evident when one compares the more literal translation from the Greek with the NIV. I've just never seen anyone address Jude from the UR side, except in passing comment on parts of it. I picked up on some of those things that Hanson mentioned when I read through it in the interlinear. I've read a fair amount of Hanson's stuff, as well as a number of other authors, old and new.

Rosered, I think I missed something. Who's Tallman?

Most of you don't know me yet; I've been studying/wrestling with universalism for a few years now, (after the Lord kind of plopped it in my lap suddenly and unexpectedly one day) and consider myself some form of universal restorationist. I've found a lot of useful/ helpful comments and posts on this site, which is why I decided to join--so I can interact directly with those of you who've been Uni's longer than I have.

[rosered]

 
  Doc I am sorry  , Tallman is another newbie ..hee hee  and I had just read his post and than yours 
its a case of mistaken Idenity !  My apologies  fine sir ..
   please pardon , my absent mind !  :mblush:
    Well I have not been UR  to long me self  :mshock: I have  known  maybe 4 years ?  and  the more  pressing into it , the more I see     Masters Glorious works unfold ...

[Doc]

Rosered: Oh, right, no problem; I thought perhaps it was a reference to my reference that I wasn't getting.  :mshock:

I've only been UR about two years, but I know what you mean. I see it everywhere I look in the scriptures now. It's like suddenly having your eyes opened, and a whole bunch of things that didn't make sense before start to make sense, as well as tie into so many other things about the life of the believer.  :cloud9:

Thanks for clearing that up for me.  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

Rosered: Oh, right, no problem; I thought perhaps it was a reference to my reference that I wasn't getting.  :mshock:

I've only been UR about two years, but I know what you mean. I see it everywhere I look in the scriptures now. It's like suddenly having your eyes opened, and a whole bunch of things that didn't make sense before start to make sense, as well as tie into so many other things about the life of the believer.  :cloud9:

Thanks for clearing that up for me.  :thumbsup:

LOL .. ok Doc , you are getting it  hee hee
   and the Lord is adding cubits to stature  by the way  :happy3:

  Love your  description by the way , I have this as well , so nice to be able to have all things in common eh ? :winkgrin: God  love ya bro ...  :icon_flower:

[Doc]

Rosered: Oh, right, no problem; I thought perhaps it was a reference to my reference that I wasn't getting.  :mshock:

I've only been UR about two years, but I know what you mean. I see it everywhere I look in the scriptures now. It's like suddenly having your eyes opened, and a whole bunch of things that didn't make sense before start to make sense, as well as tie into so many other things about the life of the believer.  :cloud9:

Thanks for clearing that up for me.  :thumbsup:

LOL .. ok Doc , you are getting it  hee hee
   and the Lord is adding cubits to stature  by the way  :happy3:

  Love your  description by the way , I have this as well , so nice to be able to have all things in common eh ? :winkgrin: God  love ya bro ...  :icon_flower:

:thumbsup: