Hello,
This may have been discussed before, and may not even be the best place to post it, but a rookie's got to start somewhere!
I just wanted to share a general observation I've made since coming to believe in UR some years ago.
I've noticed that many, having come to this glorious realization, can get so "giddy" with enormity of God's grace that it seems they look at scripture from what could be called the "other extreme" - that is, ignoring the parts that still clearly warn us and talk about consequences. Some (and this is probably a factor of how badly they've been hurt by the eternal torment doctrine) even seem go so far as to try and explain these passages away.
Now, this is understandable, and I also went through a degree of this in my journey. It may even be an inevitable in some cases - a part of the process of becoming unshackled from the old false doctrines.
But I think it is incumbent upon those who have some maturity in the knowledge of U.R. to provide balance and correction when encountering others who may be getting a bit off track in this manner. We need to take the whole Word of God.
The people in this world suffer greatly in their minds and bodies. When we sin, when we sow to the sinful nature rather than the Spirit, we add to this suffering - both that of others, as well as our own. In our relief about the ultimate fate of all, let us not lose sight of the very real and pressing needs that are around us, or the fact that there are consequence for our actions.
I do not want to be misunderstood - I am not by any means trying to throw any "cold water" on anyone's spiritual zeal and enthusiasm for the spectacular and infinite Love that God has revealed to us!
In fact, I am advocating the opposite: It is only when we fullly realize that God has left us a role to play, in the working out of our salvation, and when we follow through in daily, loving obedience, that our joy becomes full. It is only when we balance our knowledge that salvation is ALL of our sovereign God with the complementary knowledge that God has also given each of us a measure of giftings and free will (choice) to use daily in being ministers of Reconciliation, that we can act in the fulfilling, privileged partnership that God has granted us as members of Christ's body.
Obedience should be our proper response to the wonderful revelation of a Love that is greater than we had once ever thought possible!
His grace to us all!
Derek
Thanks for your words of wisdom! Good to hear other's see it so clearly.
Yes Derek, I agree with you. I too went through a 'stage' where I felt like 'anything goes', but then soon realized I was missing the point of salvation; to be freed from sin and to be in relationship with God. What a prize to treasure!
Quote from: Sarah on November 18, 2008, 04:50:31 AM
Yes Derek, I agree with you. I too went through a 'stage' where I felt like 'anything goes', but then soon realized I was missing the point of salvation; to be freed from sin and to be in relationship with God. What a prize to treasure!
:goodpost: and good OP Derek. And even those times were ultimately used for your growth and God's glory. His stubborn love and sovereign will determines the outcome...He knows the end from the beginning, and the end of the Lord is full of mercy. God's blessing, James.
I'm curious what you've seen people get unbalanced or sloppy about specifically. Also, when you say 'whole Word of God' are you referring to the whole bible? :Sparkletooth:
- Byron
Quote from: Sarah on November 18, 2008, 04:50:31 AM
Yes Derek, I agree with you. I too went through a 'stage' where I felt like 'anything goes', but then soon realized I was missing the point of salvation; to be freed from sin and to be in relationship with God. What a prize to treasure!
Sarah, thanks for sharing! Yes, reconciliation is only the beginning of our salvation! (Romans 5:10).
Quote from: jabcat on November 18, 2008, 04:55:03 AM
Quote from: Sarah on November 18, 2008, 04:50:31 AM
Yes Derek, I agree with you. I too went through a 'stage' where I felt like 'anything goes', but then soon realized I was missing the point of salvation; to be freed from sin and to be in relationship with God. What a prize to treasure!
:goodpost: and good OP Derek. And even those times were ultimately used for your growth and God's glory. His stubborn love and sovereign will determines the outcome...He knows the end from the beginning, and the end of the Lord is full of mercy. God's blessing, James.
Thanks James, amen - the end outcome is sure because of our God of Love, who never gives up. And our daily, obedient submission to His will means that He can use us as instruments of His healing love - all Glory to God!
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 18, 2008, 11:43:04 AM
I'm curious what you've seen people get unbalanced or sloppy about specifically. Also, when you say 'whole Word of God' are you referring to the whole bible? :Sparkletooth:
- Byron
Hi Byron,
Some carry the truth about a sovereign God to the point where they no longer think it matters what they do - to their belief, everything is predetermined and controlled by God anyway. They forget that a part of God's sovereign will and plan is to give us living souls, with a will that has the ability to make choices within the parameters He has laid out for us. Still others see the ET doctine unravelled, and suddenly many other long-cherished doctrines begin to do the same - sometimes rightly so, but it also becomes easy to throw out the baby with the bathwater, without diligent prayer and study.
As for your question, I believe the whole Bible is useful and necessary for revealing the Word of God. The Word is Christ.
Yours in Him,
Derek
My stage was not of "anything goes" so much as it was of apathy.
I know not anything goes just from the consequenses of our actions, but I thought, if God is going to take care of everyone anyway, then I do not really need to worry about being real diligent towards the warnings in the bible.
But then I realized that is the result of the emotion of having such a burden lifted. I mean since an eternal hell is not the truth after all, or so I believe, then anything that happens isn't a big deal.
But then I realized something.... The way I felt was a part of the disease and corruption of the deception of the Doctrine of Eternal Hell.
The truth lies in simple reason.
I do not want to get a broken arm, that however does not keep me from being careful that i do not get a paper cut either.
Is it love to not care if others find the road of destruction since , hey, it doesn,t last forever? No!
Would you rejoice that someone hit their thumb with a hammer by saying, "Hey buddy, rejoice, it won't hurt forever? What if you could have taught someone to avoid hitting their thumb in the first place?
Was your care and love to do so less important because the pain would only be temporary?
It was after contemplating that when I realized how unloving I really was.
I desire more than anything to love, but I am no longer pretending that I really truly know what it is. That realization haunts me now, but at least I am not deceived anymore.
Thanks Paul, that is excellent!
Quote from: Derek on November 18, 2008, 06:43:17 PM
As for your question, I believe the whole Bible is useful and necessary for revealing the Word of God. The Word is Christ.
Yours in Him,
Derek
Amen Derek. I too understand all of authentic scripture, translated as accurately as possible, spirit revealed/unveiled, is inspired and as you say, useful. The Word is Jesus, scripture is His Word(s). It saddens me that the Word(s) of God may be used in such a powerful way in a life, even to the point of revealing Jesus in a miraculous way, then those very Words be marginalized. I've done it, do it, and will do it. But it is powerful as a two-edged sword, and cuts constantly, dividing light from our darkness. Good word, bro. God's blessing, James.
Hi all , great posts ,
I can so relate to the apathy Paul :msealed:
Love is an action Word , it gets things done , I am seeing just how much it can and does make a difference
GoodWords Jabcat ! I agree ! even those maligning Gods Word To treat with malice and to show hatred toward others with it and to abuse the poor and oppressed with His Holy and Good WORD to do harm and
injure THE HELPLESS souls in need of healing . and treat them with disgust , the Holy Word warns against such abusing that power to put a false peace or even a fear if they dont do according to the traditions of men , keeping them in spiritual prision with their words
and authority
a preacher of condemnation and damnation needs to look in the mirror
we have NOTHING ! NO NONE Have nothing unless God gives it to them to lord over another without mercy and love is just wrong ....
I have said my peace ..... hee hee :cloud9:
preach it sis!
Quote from: Derek on November 18, 2008, 06:43:17 PM
Hi Byron,
Some carry the truth about a sovereign God to the point where they no longer think it matters what they do - to their belief, everything is predetermined and controlled by God anyway. They forget that a part of God's sovereign will and plan is to give us living souls, with a will that has the ability to make choices within the parameters He has laid out for us. Still others see the ET doctine unravelled, and suddenly many other long-cherished doctrines begin to do the same - sometimes rightly so, but it also becomes easy to throw out the baby with the bathwater, without diligent prayer and study.
As for your question, I believe the whole Bible is useful and necessary for revealing the Word of God. The Word is Christ.
Yours in Him,
Derek
Thanks for some details. I'm curious about this subject and how it relates to sovereignty/UR in particular. Since I went straight from atheism into the knowledge of God (including absolute sovereignty and UR) I never had the experience of going from ET to UR and how that can affect a person's walk.
My only other point is that modifying behavior for fear of bad consequences is not at all what re-birth or the new covenant are about, not even remotely. Behaving a certain way
'or else x will happen' is the most elementary (and beastly) concepts and really only amounts to an attempt to conform yourself to a religious creed. I say beastly because, well ....even my
dog is down with that concept! :laughing7:
The true knowledge of God's virtue
is it's own reward and it operates from a platform of divine substance rather than preventing our rebellious souls from doing bad things because they lead causes problems or pain.
I do understand that for our social structure to work there has to be that fear of consequence as a stopgap till people can be freed from the elemental laws but again, this has no place for those who seek to live in spiritual purity.
- Byron
QuoteBehaving a certain way 'or else x will happen' is the most elementary (and beastly) concepts and really only amounts to an attempt to conform yourself to a religious creed.
How is it beastly? Reaping and sowing, is a basic elementary spiritual principle.
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 19, 2008, 05:14:54 AM
Quote from: Derek on November 18, 2008, 06:43:17 PM
Hi Byron,
Some carry the truth about a sovereign God to the point where they no longer think it matters what they do - to their belief, everything is predetermined and controlled by God anyway. They forget that a part of God's sovereign will and plan is to give us living souls, with a will that has the ability to make choices within the parameters He has laid out for us. Still others see the ET doctine unravelled, and suddenly many other long-cherished doctrines begin to do the same - sometimes rightly so, but it also becomes easy to throw out the baby with the bathwater, without diligent prayer and study.
As for your question, I believe the whole Bible is useful and necessary for revealing the Word of God. The Word is Christ.
Yours in Him,
Derek
Thanks for some details. I'm curious about this subject and how it relates to sovereignty/UR in particular. Since I went straight from atheism into the knowledge of God (including absolute sovereignty and UR) I never had the experience of going from ET to UR and how that can affect a person's walk.
My only other point is that modifying behavior for fear of bad consequences is not at all what re-birth or the new covenant are about, not even remotely. Behaving a certain way 'or else x will happen' is the most elementary (and beastly) concepts and really only amounts to an attempt to conform yourself to a religious creed. I say beastly because, well ....even my dog is down with that concept! :laughing7:
The true knowledge of God's virtue is it's own reward and it operates from a platform of divine substance rather than preventing our rebellious souls from doing bad things because they lead causes problems or pain.
I do understand that for our social structure to work there has to be that fear of consequence as a stopgap till people can be freed from the elemental laws but again, this has no place for those who seek to live in spiritual purity.
- Byron
Hi Byron,
I believe I see where you are leery of "fear of consequence" - you see it as the lowest possible motivator for behavior - akin to the fight-or-flight response of animals.
However, it is not a
self-preserving fear of consequence that motivates us - although even avoidance of "harm to self", when seen as something contrary to God's plan (something that temporarily delays or thwarts His best for us), can perhaps be seen in a nobler light. Rather, it is the realization that our sin unfailingly causes harm and loss to others which is the main thing that we want to avoid. And, as you allude to, we are also positively motivated by the healing and blessing that come to
others through our obedience.
I agree with SOtW - reaping and sowing is an elementary spiritual principle, none the less for the fact that it, like many other spiritual principles, finds is corollary in the physical world.
Yours in Christ,
Derek
Quote from: Derek on November 19, 2008, 06:45:56 AMsuddenly many other long-cherished doctrines begin to do the same - sometimes rightly so, but it also becomes easy to throw out the baby with the bathwater
I am learning (from many many discussions with adherers to ET) that many never have the baby to begin with.
Quote from: Derek on November 19, 2008, 06:45:56 AM
As for your question, I believe the whole Bible is useful and necessary for revealing the Word of God. The Word is Christ.
The only problem I have is when people assume there is nothing more to know than what was canonized by the Roman catholic church.
Quote from: Derek on November 19, 2008, 06:45:56 AM
I believe I see where you are leery of "fear of consequence" - you see it as the lowest possible motivator for behavior - akin to the fight-or-flight response of animals.
You'd be shocked how many believers I share with think that the purpose of Christianity is to help humans avoid the bad
consequences of sin. You may be more shocked at what they tell me they would do if they thought could get away with it. It's enough to make me thankful that some DO believe in ET :mshock:
Quote from: Derek on November 19, 2008, 06:45:56 AM
However, it is not a self-preserving fear of consequence that motivates us - although even avoidance of "harm to self", when seen as something contrary to God's plan (something that temporarily delays or thwarts His best for us), can perhaps be seen in a nobler light. Rather, it is the realization that our sin unfailingly causes harm and loss to others which is the main thing that we want to avoid. And, as you allude to, we are also positively motivated by the healing and blessing that come to others through our obedience.
I agree with SOtW - reaping and sowing is an elementary spiritual principle, none the less for the fact that it, like many other spiritual principles, finds is corollary in the physical world.
I don't want to get too deep here except to say that obviously sowing and reaping exist - but there is another level of understanding concerning why we do what we do.
The will of the flesh cannot be conformed to the will of God.
To go back to something you said
Quote from: Derek on November 19, 2008, 06:45:56 AM
And, as you allude to, we are also positively motivated by the healing and blessing that come to others through our obedience.
In this case we are still looking to
positive results to motivate us. I know this is one way to get 'things' done, but I'm submitting to you that there is a higher cause/reason/purpose for living in the Spirit. :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2008, 01:22:20 AM
Quote from: Derek on November 18, 2008, 06:43:17 PM
As for your question, I believe the whole Bible is useful and necessary for revealing the Word of God. The Word is Christ.
Yours in Him,
Derek
Amen Derek. I too understand all of authentic scripture, translated as accurately as possible, spirit revealed/unveiled, is inspired and as you say, useful. The Word is Jesus, scripture is His Word(s). It saddens me that the Word(s) of God may be used in such a powerful way in a life, even to the point of revealing Jesus in a miraculous way, then those very Words be marginalized. I've done it, do it, and will do it. But it is powerful as a two-edged sword, and cuts constantly, dividing light from our darkness. Good word, bro. God's blessing, James.
Thanks James, yes, his Word cuts, and like you say, sometimes we tend to shy away from that process, and try to "marginalize" it.
That's one of the reasons we have each other - to keep each other "sharp"!
Blessings to you,
Derek
Hi Byron,
QuoteYou'd be shocked how many believers I share with think that the purpose of Christianity is to help humans avoid the bad consequences of sin. You may be more shocked at what they tell me they would do if they thought could get away with it.
Not too shocked, unfortunately. The sinful nature is utterly sinful, but also, not permanent!
QuoteI don't want to get too deep here except to say that obviously sowing and reaping exist - but there is another level of understanding concerning why we do what we do.
The will of the flesh cannot be conformed to the will of God.
To go back to something you said
Quote from: Derek on November 18, 2008, 11:45:56 PM
And, as you allude to, we are also positively motivated by the healing and blessing that come to others through our obedience.
In this case we are still looking to positive results to motivate us. I know this is one way to get 'things' done, but I'm submitting to you that there is a higher cause/reason/purpose for living in the Spirit.
Love is the highest motivation, and learning Love is a long process, by all accounts! :bigGrin: Only in Christ can we truly Love, for He is Love. Love is active, and is always seeking the best for Others - "positive results", however pedantic that phrase may seem. The greatest love is laying down our lives
for others, even as Christ has shown us.
In my opinion, learning to Love others with the Love of God is both straightforward enough (in concept) to be accessible and beneficial to believers of all maturity levels, and challenging enough (in implementation) to "keep us going" for a lifetime. But if you have something deeper to share, then by all means do so!
Yours in Christ,
Derek
This thread is helpful to me, because in some senses I am still in this "stage". For me, it has mainly to do with getting to the deeper truths at this point, and at the same time figuring out some "parameters" if that's the right word. I've only been a UR for about two years now, so a lot of this is relatively new to me, but I'm also the type of person who is in constant learning mode, so I'm always searching for that deeper truth.
It can certainly be easy to let yourself get a bit off track with knowledge this freeing, especially when you're still in "exploration" mode.
Quote from: Derek on November 19, 2008, 08:02:22 PM
Love is the highest motivation, and learning Love is a long process, by all accounts! :bigGrin: Only in Christ can we truly Love, for He is Love.
How about "Only
in as Christ can we truly Love, for He is Love" ?
See what I'm getting at?
Quote from: Doc on November 25, 2008, 09:30:19 PM
It can certainly be easy to let yourself get a bit off track with knowledge this freeing, especially when you're still in "exploration" mode.
It's like a child teetering on a bridge between
"I know I was told that I
should do this"
and
"I am doing this because I
want to - it's who I am now".
^Yes.
Quote from: Derek on November 17, 2008, 09:25:23 PM
....
In fact, I am advocating the opposite: It is only when we fullly realize that God has left us a role to play, in the working out of our salvation, and when we follow through in daily, loving obedience, that our joy becomes full. It is only when we balance our knowledge that salvation is ALL of our sovereign God with the complementary knowledge that God has also given each of us a measure of giftings and free will (choice) to use daily in being ministers of Reconciliation, that we can act in the fulfilling, privileged partnership that God has granted us as members of Christ's body.
Obedience should be our proper response to the wonderful revelation of a Love that is greater than we had once ever thought possible!
His grace to us all!
Derek
Amen Derek... great post!