This verse seems to contradict universalism. Even if it doesn't, then does that mean that "a limited time in a purgatory type Hell" will be unbearable? How unbearable?
(For me) UR isn't a system without consequences/punishment because it's clear in many places in the Bible Father is mad and takes appropriate action. Everyone ends up in heaven, but the path to heaven is different for everyone. But that path never includes brutal torture. Not even "just a few years" in the fires of purgatory. Jesus never used words like torture or punishment but always used the word correction. I assume that correction can be quite harsh but it never involves literal fire and/or other sorts of torture.
Many, MANY, NT passages point toward correction. If your wish read "The Lake of Life".
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/ (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/)
it speaks of being cast into Gehenna. Gehenna was a fire pit outside Jerusalemn where certain kinds of garbage was burned. Better to cut off your hand(repent of something I am attached to that is coming between you aand God) or pluck out your eye(repent of something I am lusting after or want so much it comes between me and God) and enter heaven maimed(having suffered loss) than to enter Gehenna (the corrective process of God, such as the Lake of Fire) whole(holding onto some darkness that must be burned off in the light/firre of God).
I personally believe there will be both correction and punishment for the wicked, many stripes,or few- depending on their deeds. I also believe it will be a difficult, unpleasant experience- or Jesus would not have used such an extreme example.
"Where there worm dies not and the fire is not quenched", imo, speaks of the condition that develops from continual persistence in wickedness, lust and rebellion, and the hardness/darkness it creates this in the soul of man, and the consequences that can come of it both in this life and the world to come. "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God".....
I personally believe that those verses teach that "Everyone will be salted with fire" (Mk 9:49) and that it is better to let the fire work in this life in fellowship with Christ, the Father and one another than to endure the correction in the next world.
41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
42 and whoever may cause to stumble one of the little ones believing in me, better is it for him if a millstone is hanged about his neck, and he hath been cast into the sea.
43 `And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
44 where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
45 `And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
46 where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
49 for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted.
50 The salt [is] good, but if the salt may become saltless, in what will ye season [it]? Have in yourselves salt, and have peace in one another.'
Verse 50 is the point, or resolution, of the previous verses- it is not teachingn the eternal torment of the wicked.
Clearly the salt is fire, and light is fire to darkness. We are to "walk in the light" as He is in the light, as children of the light- salting one another in the fellowship of the light(encourage one another to love and good works). In so doing we insure that we will not have to endure a more intense form of correction in the world/age to come(olam/aion).
The fire is unquenchable- you can't put it out- it is the light of God(our God is a consuming fire) and it never goes out, and it will consume the dross until there is no more, until we are as gold tried in the fire 7 times. If we yield to that process(the purifying of your faith is more precious than gold- peter) we are rewarded with great grace and fellowship together in Christ. If not(in varying degree) we experience the fire from a different abode(if anyone abide not in Me he will be cut off as a branch, gathered by men and thrown into the fire John 15) and it can be extremely unpleasant. Better to yield to the Holy Spirit, amen?
Quote from: Jason76 on August 22, 2014, 10:44:59 AM
This verse seems to contradict universalism. Even if it doesn't, then does that mean that "a limited time in a purgatory type Hell" will be unbearable? How unbearable?
It would help perhaps to know who Jesus was speaking to and to remember John 6:63 :2c:
From my understanding the "Hell" verse used there is Gehenna which is in the context of national judgements
I have to disagree that it was referring to national judgments. It appears to me in the context that it is speaking of personal judgments, based on whether one acts compassionately towards those in need or with indifference. :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2014, 04:23:10 AM
I have to disagree that it was referring to national judgments. It appears to me in the context that it is speaking of personal judgments, based on whether one acts compassionately towards those in need or with indifference. :2c:
:iagree: How can one see the mote in the persons eye when the one looking has a timber in his own. :2c:
Quote from: Jason76 on August 22, 2014, 10:44:59 AM
This verse seems to contradict universalism. Even if it doesn't, then does that mean that "a limited time in a purgatory type Hell" will be unbearable? How unbearable?
I don't think it contradicts universal reconciliation because the "hell" you refer to in that context is an intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" that was and will be used to burn the dead bodies of condemned criminals not so called immortal souls. The legitimate use of the Old English word "hell" was to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unperceived" or "unseen," which is the unseen state of dead souls never said to involve any fire or torment. Purgatory is an invention of the Roman Catholic Church that is found nowhere in scripture. "Hell" will not be "unbearable" because the dead are not conscious to experience anything.
"The dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Lu 16:19 ΒΆ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Eaglesway posted Our God is a consuming fire. (Amen)
The One that we long for and rejoice to see will strike fear and torment in the hearts of others
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
May The Lord Bless.
Joe
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Where can I go from Your presence