Tentmaker Forum

I've heard it said that Jesus spoke more about hell than He did about heaven.  I wanted to touch on this point by taking a look at the passages in Scripture that are used to back up the idea of Everlasting Torment (ET) in hell.

Let's start with the Old Testament as it must be chock-full of warnings about ET:

"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.  Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever." - Daniel 12:1-3

What's that? This is the only passage in the entire Old Testament that hints at the idea of ET? That can't be right.  There were about 2,000 more years between Creation and the Incarnation than between the Incarnation and today, that's double the amount of time.  If ET is true then it seems that God didn't bother to warn even His chosen people, much less the rest of the world, about it until many thousands of years after the fall.  If we're to take the concept of ET seriously, it seems that God decided the only people worth saving are those who came after the Incarnation since He didn't even bother to tell anyone how to avoid this horrible fate in this passage beyond "being wise" and having your name written in some book.  Still, nothing about "non-believers in Christ in this passage so I'm going to have to write it off as a good defence of ET for non-believers until someone can demonstrate a good exegesis of this passage that does defend the idea of non-believers in Christ going to hell forever.

Well, that was it for the Old Testament, but surely the New Testament must be full of passages that tell us that non-believers in Christ go to hell forever.  After all, it's such an important part of our Protestant theology.  Let's take a look:

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." - Matthew 12:31-32

"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." - Mark 3:28-29

"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." - Luke 12:10

That's the first statement, repeated in the three Synoptic Gospels, that a traditionalist could use from the New Testament to try to back up their belief in ET.  Taken at face value it seems to say that every sin will be forgiven except the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" (which is, literally, to say that a work of the Holy Spirit was actually done by the devil, something that very few people have ever done or will do).  Matthew also seems to tell us that after the age to come ends this sin will be forgiven, so those few people who have committed this sin might just be in luck once the next age ends, presumably after the 1,000 year Millennial Reign concludes.  Since that warning only applies to those who say that the work of the Holy Spirit was actually done by the devil most of us don't need to worry too much about it, so time to move on.

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." - Matthew 18:8-9

"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'" - Mark 9:43-48

This is the second statement that Jesus made that might be interpreted as a warning about ET.  However, if someone can interpret "non-believer in Christ" out of not mutilating one's body they're a better exegete (or should I say eisegete?) than I am.  This passage seems to tell us that those who go to hell are those who let parts of their body cause them to sin without amputating those parts, but it sure doesn't seem to tell us that non-believers go to hell forever.  So I guess we'll have to move on to the many more warnings Jesus gave about ET:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."" - Matthew 25:31-46

I've read and re-read this passage and the only thing I can get out of it, at least if taken at face value, is that those who help the helpless go to heaven forever and those who don't get punished forever.  Just like the passages about bodily mutilation, I just don't get how one reads "non-believer in Christ (especially if we include "apart from any works")" into "those who don't feed the hungry or look after the sick," particularly since I know of many believers who don't and many non-believes who do.  In fact, this passage seems to imply that more non-Christians might go to heaven than Christians and more Christians might end up in hell than Atheists.  But I'm sure some good theologian out there will fill me in on why I'm reading that wrong.  In the meantime let's check out all the other warnings about ET that Jesus gave us:


Wait, that was Jesus' last warning about ET in the Gospels? But I thought He spoke more about everlasting punishment in hell than He did about heaven? That was only three warnings, and none of them mention non-believers in Christ (apart from any works) at all.  In fact two thirds of them seem to imply that certain works must be done to avoid everlasting damnation.  Okay, well, maybe we confused Jesus with the Apostle Paul, it must have been him who gave all those warnings.  Let's check them out:

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed." - 2  Thessalonians 1:8-10

Finally, a passage that seems to tell us that non-believers will go to hell forever.  What? The passage doesn't even mention hell? It says destruction? Well, surely I could be forgiven for reading into that word based on all the other passages that talk about non-believers going to hell forever, a little eisegesis never hurt anyone, right? Oh, that's right, none of the other passages so far actually mentioned non-believers in Christ, they all seemed to refer to those who didn't do certain works.  It seems that if we want to take this passage literally we'll have to become believers in Annihilation rather than ET.  But I'm sure Paul must have given us lots of other warnings that we can use to defend the position.  He didn't? That can't be right.  The great evangelist to the Gentiles never once spoke of everlasting torment in hell? Not even in his sermons to the Jews or the Pagans recorded in Acts? Well there must be something else in the Bible that we can use to defend the idea.  Ah, here we go:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."" - Revelation 14:9-11

That only tells us that those who worship a certain beast (could this be a metaphor for a particular person?) will be punished forever, not that non-believers in Christ will be.  Of course, one would also have to justify taking the effect (the punishment) literally when we're not taking the cause (the worshipping of a beast) literally.  But since this doesn't speak of non-believers we'll have to move on.

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. - Revelation 20:7-10

Well, this passages seems to say that Satan, the beast and the false prophet (and maybe the nations who marched with them against the city God loves depending on how you read the passage) will apparently be thrown into the lake of fire and will be tormented forever, but still nothing about non-believers in Christ so let's move on to the next passage:


This can't be right, I can't find any more.  But that was only 10 passages (7 if you take the fact that three of them were repeats of passages in Matthew into consideration).  That was the whole foundation upon which the concept of Everlasting Torment rests? But what about all the passages that are supposed to tell us that non-believers in Christ will go to hell forever, where are they? Isn't this is one of the most important teachings of the evangelical church? Well, after comparing those passages to the multitude of passages (http://www.christianheretic.com/articles/article43.html) that seem to support Universal Reconciliation I'm going to have to go with the idea that seems to actually be backed by Scripture.  If anybody wants to try to defend their beloved doctrine of ET I'd be happy to listen, but until then I'm going to have to stick with Christian Universalism.

(The above post was a repost of an earlier  blog entry (http://www.christianheretic.com/2007/07/defending-everlasting-torment.html) on my site (http://www.christianheretic.com), edited slightly for this board.)

One of the reasons I wrote the above entry is to point out that, regardless of how one thinks the word aionios should be translated or what one thinks of the arguments for Universal Reconciliation, there simply isn't a basis for arguing that the Bible supports everlasting torment in hell for non-believers in Christ in the first place without also supporting a works-based salvation.

Quote from: drewcosten on November 20, 2007, 08:59:21 PM
I've heard it said that Jesus spoke more about hell than He did about heaven. 

Ah, the great lie of the fundie church repeated ad nauseum, and not remotely close to the truth.

The moderator "Tenor" has joined in the propogation.

QuoteIf Hell is not a part of the Gospel, then why did Jesus take time and speak more about it then He did about Heaven?

http://www.christcenteredforums.com/forum/showthread.php/hell-etc-3051/index10.html

How many times did the Lord Jesus Christ speak of hell in all references of the New Testament?

____________________________________________________________?

How many times did the Lord Jesus Christ speak of heaven?

_____________________________________________________________?

Search Hell=

HERE (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=hell&section=2&version=str&language=en)

Search Heaven=

HERE (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=heaven&section=2&version=str&language=en)

Dear Tenor: please be advised that you are not remotely warm.  :laughing7:

My Bible Resource Page

HERE (http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3889)

Search= eternal hell

"Your search query for 'eternal hell' has yielded no results. Please modify your search query and try again." 

HELL

The Period Before The Law

http://hellbusters.8m.com/originofhell1.html


The Period Under The Law

Section I - Arguement From the Law Itself, and From the History of the Jews

Section II - The Testimony of Orthodox Critics and Theologians

Section III - Arguement From the Word "Sheol," or the Old Testament Hell

Section IV - The Moral Application of the Preceding Arguements

Section V - Objections Answered

http://hellbusters.8m.com/originofhell2.html


The Heathen Hell

Section I - Description of the Heathen Hell

Section II - The Heathen Invented the Doctrine of Endless Punishment --

Shown By Their Confessions

http://hellbusters.8m.com/originofhell3.html


The Jews Borrowed From The Heathen

http://hellbusters.8m.com/originofhell4.html


Endless Punishment Not Taught In The New Testament

Section I - Salvation By Christ, Not From Endless Punishment

Section II - The New Testament Doctrine of Hell

Section III - "Unquenchable Fire" and "The Worm That Dieth Not"

Section IV - The Words Eternal, Everlasting, Forever, etc.

Section V - The Second Death

http://hellbusters.8m.com/originofhell5.html


Introduction Of The Dogma Into The Christian Church

http://hellbusters.8m.com/originofhell8.html


What The Dogma Creates

http://hellbusters.8m.com/originofhell6.html


Historical Contrast

http://hellbusters.8m.com/originofhell8.html


The Influence Of The Dogma On Believers

http://hellbusters.8m.com/originofhell9.html


Additional Testimonies

Section I - Additions To Chapter 2, Section II, Testimony of Orthodox Critics and Theologians to the Fact That the Doctrine Is Not Taught In the Law of Moses

Section II - Additions to Section III of Chapter 2, Sheol, Or the Old Testament Doctrine of Hell

Section III - Additions To Chapter 4, The Jews Borrowed the Doctrine From the Heathen

Section IV - Additions To Chapter 5, Section IV, The Words Eternal, Everlasting, Forever

Section V - Additions to Chapter 6, The Introduction of the Doctrine Into the Christian Church

http://hellbusters.8m.com/originofhell10.html


Gehenna: By the guys who read and write and speak Hebrew

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G&search=gehenna

Quote from: FineLinen on November 21, 2007, 03:08:27 PMThe moderator "Tenor" has joined in the propogation.

QuoteIf Hell is not a part of the Gospel, then why did Jesus take time and speak more about it then He did about Heaven?

http://www.christcenteredforums.com/forum/showthread.php/hell-etc-3051/index10.html

Is the thread deleted? Couldn't acess it. I did find that discussion on universalism is now banned:

http://www.christcenteredforums.com/forum/showthread.php/goodbye-5927/index.html?t=5927&highlight=universalism
- blessings,
    - byron

I could answer that question:

According to the Strongest NIV Exhaustive Concordance the word hell appears in the Bible (NIV) 14 times

the word heaven appears appears 422 times

half of the number of that word appears in the new testament that Jesus spoke

Why would Jesus speak of hell very little and speak of heaven 30 times more if the majority would end up in hell???  That means the topic of hell is not that important.

Quote from: drewcosten on November 20, 2007, 08:59:21 PM
(The above post was a repost of an earlier  blog entry (http://www.christianheretic.com/2007/07/defending-everlasting-torment.html) on my site (http://www.christianheretic.com), edited slightly for this board.)

Your site is way cool Drew! I would encourage all to check it out
http://www.christianheretic.com/

- byron

With my hell studies so far, I have yet to see the gnashers or the references to hell being directed to any other than the religious.  If mainstream sees hell as a bigger teaching of Jesus, maybe God is trying to tell them something.

Where ET is the focus it is also directly proportional to the metaphorical size of satan, making ol' red guy far more potent than he really is.

Denom i nation demon in nation

Religion Re-legion we are many

See wolves in sheeps clothing?

I think that "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is probably a figure of speach from the first century that means to regret greatly because Jesus uses this term as the condition of the unfaithful servants at His return. They certainly will not go to any hell or lake of fire since their names are written in the Book of Life since they are His servants.

I think of Esau who wept bitter tears when he sold his inheritance and birth right for a bowl of soup. Many will receive little reward and not be trusted to rule with Christ and their tears will not be because of punishment, but for regret when they realize what foolish things cost them their reward. For example, could you imagine how you would feel if you never were allowed to rule because you never overcame the sin of gluttony. Yes, you would still receive eternal life and be in the Kingdom, but I would have to weep to think that a double-bacon cheeseburger cost me my reward.

This is the reason that Revelation says that He will wipe away every tear in Heaven. Why are people in Heaven weeping at least in the beginning? Perhaps, they realize what silly things caused them to be unfaithful servants and they weep and gnash their teeth to see their one talent given to the one who already has ten and is ruling over ten cities in their stead?

John

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 26, 2007, 07:28:43 AM
Your site is way cool Drew! I would encourage all to check it out
http://www.christianheretic.com/

- byron

Thank you very much Byron.  :bigGrin:

Drew,

I enjoyed what you wrote, but I don't think you gave justice to the "eternal torment" passages of Scripture. For example, why didn't you include Revelation 20:11-15? They are probably some of the most quoted verses by those who believe in ET.

Regarding the number of times Christ spoke of heaven vs. hell, I don't think a simple word count is adequate. There are many terms in the Gospels that are understood to be a reference to hell, such as "blackness," "darkness," "fire," "torment," "perish," etc. Likewise, there are terms for heaven such as "kingdom," "resurrection," and "life" that would have to be taken into account. So, a more thorough study would have to be done to determine if Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven. I'd be very curious to see the results of such a study because I too have heard the argument that "Jesus spoke of hell more than He did of heaven."

I think what you've written has great potential, but I'd like to see it more complete so that it is less prone to criticism for omitting crucial passages.

Hi Wannabelieve

I have done this study on multiple word counts, there is a thread here of mine in the judgement board "False statements" or you can look at my blog and the heaven hell topic.

I did go further than just heaven and hell, I also have posted Teeth Gnashers and have the 1st 4 references to hell and all show that they were in context directed at the Pharisees or religious elite of the day, not sinners.

Have a look, the link is in my signature.   Sorry I cannot give the links as I am on a very slow connection via mobile.

Blessings

I don't know why it is so hard for Christians to see that Jesus took ALL wrath upon Himself for us.  All are reconciled, hence no hell.  They are so double minded and fleshly....In the funda-gelical mind, God is guilty of double jeapordy.  Jesus was punished for our sins and unless we believe, we will be punished a second time for the same sin.

Churchy types are really beginning to drive me crazy :eek:  Actually, no need to drive...I'm just a stone's throw away!
Giz

Quote from: wannabelieve on December 01, 2007, 03:34:01 PM
Drew,

I enjoyed what you wrote, but I don't think you gave justice to the "eternal torment" passages of Scripture. For example, why didn't you include Revelation 20:11-15? They are probably some of the most quoted verses by those who believe in ET.

The passages in Revelation 20:11-15 don't mention a duration of the judgement so there's no  justification for using them as dogmatic proof for ET without reading a timeframe into them (which would be eisegesis).  I only discussed the passages that might hint at a duration of the judgement.  This is why I didn't discuss the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man either, because this story doesn't specifically say how long the Rich Man would be in Hades for.

Drew,

I get what you are saying about Rev 10:11-15, but the immediately previous verse, in reference to Satan, says:

Rev. 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So, it's easy to see how someone would think that the "forever and ever" would also apply to the people in verses 11-15, but technically you are right, it's eisegesis.

I just found these verses from Isaiah used to support a second (other than Daniel 12) passage on ET in the Old Testament. What is your understanding of this passage?

Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD,  "So shall your descendants and your name remain.
Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
Isaiah 66:24  "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Verse 23 seems to teach UR. Some would take verse 24 to teach ET.

It is interesting, though, that if OT people were threatened with ET, that God would not warn them about it until Isaiah (700 BC) and Daniel (400 BC). That's a lot of years without even a warning about ET!

OK Drew, let me play the "devils advocate" here. How about including these two passages in your paper:

2Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Jude 1:13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Hmm...the Concordent Literal New Testament is Greek into English

From 2 Peter

15 Leaving the straight path, they were led astray, following out the path of Balaam of Beor, who loves the wages of injustice,
16 yet was exposed for his own outlawry. A voiceless yoke-beast, uttering with a human voice, forbids the insanity of the prophet.
17 These are waterless springs, and mists driven by a storm, for whom the gloom of darkness has been kept.18 For, uttering pompous vanity, they are luring by the lusts of the flesh, in wantonness, those who are scarcely fleeing from those who are behaving with deception;
19 promising them freedom, they are inherently slaves of corruption; for by whom anyone is discomfited, to this one he has been enslaved also.

No mention of any time Scale...

Frome Jude....

12 These are the reefs in your love feasts, carousing with you fearlessly, shepherding themselves; waterless clouds carried aside by winds; trees that are sear, unfruitful, twice dying, uprooted;
13 wild billows of the sea, frothing forth their own shame; straying stars, for whom the gloom of darkness has been kept for an eon.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesies to these also, saying, "Lo! the Lord came among ten thousand of His saints,

For an eon or an age...or an era...a period of time that has a conclusion not forever.

Ah, Jesus spoke about hell more than He did about heaven.  Sounds good in a sermon when you're about to raise the offering, but when you pick up a Strong's Concordance.....

uh-oh!

Another Christian Fundamentalist LIE "from the pit of Hell." :icon_jokercolor:

I remember in my pre-UR days, long before I'd ever heard of UR, I heard John Hagee spew that venom from the pulpit and thought that if that was true, then I needed to adjust my ministry to do likewise.  I picked up my Strong's Concordance and noticed, just in the KJV, the 12 to 14 references to "hell" in the New Testament and something like 122 references to heaven.  Don't quote me on that 'cause I don't have my Strong's Concordance handy.  I'm just giving a figure that I haven't checked in a really long time.  Not sure if I ever wrote it down.  But it was incredible that someone could have LIED so calculatingly and demonically.  An inch or two of references on the page for the Hell mistranslation and then this BIG OL' LONG LIST of "heaven" references, which I know don't mean "heaven" in the evangelical fundamentalist interpretation.  I knew that before I'd ever heard of UR 'cause of Paul's usage of the term.  And then people saying that they're going to read about heaven from their Bibles and they'd turn to the last couple of chapters of the Bible, and to the casual observer that hasn't been religiously brain washed....it don't add up 'cause that passage very plainly says EARTH.  In passing on the "heaven" subject, the Old Testament might mention it a few times 'cause I've found passages that'll mention "heaven and the heaven of heavens."

But, if your top scholars who are defending the view that Christ is eternally barbecuing little ol' grannies for all of eternity to get His holier than thou jollies -- if they can't even stick to their mistranslations story and admit that in their "Authorized Version" that the mistranslated references that bring up all of their occultic garbage about Christ, the eternal abortionist, who does His Father's bidding in roasting soooo many of His kids for as long as God exists, then how can we even begin to have an intelligent conversation on it?  They've gone crazy and are seeing it on every page!!  To some fundamentalists, there's more references to "Hell" in the Bible than to the God that supposedly consigns widows and orphans to such an eternal divorce from His tender mercies and lovingkindnesses for as long as He'll exist.

Read my lips: Not only are there no new tithes under the New Covenant, but Christ has not and will never embrace the Dark Side!!  THERE IS NO HELL!!!  Christ isn't the eternal abortionist Who's forever aborted the plan of God, that God would one day be "all in all" in the last remaining senses that He's not yet visibly all in all.

For our light affliction which is but for a moment, worketh for us, kath hyperbolen eis hyperbolen aionion baros dozes katergazetai emin: a glory exceeding aionion, or age-lasting, to an excess.  Here is an hyperbole upon hyperbole; beyond age-lasting; a far more exceeding weight of glory!

And as far as Jude's epistle supposedly having some reference to eternal damnation in it:

Many Lexicon editors derive the word "aidios" from aei, ever, or always: but it very likely has the same etymology as "hades," which they derive from a negative, and idein, "to see;" and therefore it signifies invisible, unseen, or unknown.  In Romans 1:20 where it is applied to the power of God, it's translated "unknown" by Scarlett's New Testament, because we see or know only a very small part of God's power.  The word is used in a limited sense by the Greeks.  Thucydides has this phrase "othen aidion misthophoran uparchein" from whence he expected a perpetual salary.  But this could be only a salary during his life time, therefore the word in Thucydides means a period unknown, though it will certainly end.

My deepest, deepest apologies if anyone thought that I was angry in my last post.  In the Name of Jesus, discussion boards in the next decade have just got to have the three miracles of loading quickly over dial-up WHILE allowing for a post to be an audio file, that doesn't financially eat the lunch of whomever is paying the bill on it 'cause of bandwidth and memory usage.  Some of my posts recently, at least to me, have sounded on the angry side when it's been more of slipping into that passionate preach whatever than barking like a mad dog or a couple of UR folks from other websites that shall go unnamed  :icon_jokercolor:  :laughing7:

The King James Bible, along with several other Bibles, have rendered the Greek word hades and Gehenna as hell in numerous scriptures that Jesus spoke. Due to this rendering, many have been mislead into reasoning that Jesus was teaching that God is one who torments people in a "hellfire". In reality, nothing could be farther from the truth.

While on the earth, Jesus used several Greek words, which the King James Bible incorrectly renders as "hell". For example, at Matthew 5:22, Jesus, when speaking of someone using condemnatory speech, used the Greek word Gehenna, that is from the Hebrew word geh·hin·nom´, meaning "valley of Hinnom", the place for burning refuse outside of Jerusalem. Gehenna is also used by Jesus at Matthew 5:29,30, as at Matthew 10:28. However, it is of interest to note that those who go there, are not tormented, but are destroyed. Thus, when Jesus used Gehenna, what did he mean ? That anyone who judged as worthy of Gehenna, will never be resurrected when they have died.

At Matthew 11:23, Jesus used another Greek word - Ha´des, as at Matthew 16:18. At Matthew 18:9, Jesus used Gehenna, as at Matthew 23:15,33. In the course of providing insight into the seriousness of allowing something to stumble themselves from following the Christ at Mark 9:43-48, Jesus used the word Gehenna. In condemning Capernaum, Jesus used the word Ha´des at Luke 10:15. However at Luke 12:5, Jesus used the word Gehenna, for this is the same as the parallel Scripture at Matthew 10:28.

At Luke 16:23, Jesus did not use the Greek word Gehenna but rather Ha´des. The half brother of Jesus, James, used the Greek word Gehenna at James 3:6. At Revelation 1:18, 6:8, 20:13,14, the Greek word Ha´des is used. At Psalms 16:10, it said prophetically of Jesus after his death: "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Hebrew,she'ohl´); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."(King James Bible) The apostle Peter, in speaking to the those on the day of Pentecost concerning the prophesy at Psalms 16:10, said: "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (Greek, Ha´des ), neither his flesh did see corruption."(Acts 2:31, King James Bible)  Thus, the Hebrew word she'ohl' is the same as the Greek word Ha´des.   

Therefore, what is the proper Scriptural meaning of these two words ?  For the meaning of hell to be a place of fiery torment, as many suppose, then there must be something that lives on after death. Solomon wrote under inspiration: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."(Eccles 9:5 King James Bible) 

Psalms 115:17 says that "The dead themselves do not praise Jah, nor do any going down into silence."  Those who have died therefore "know not anything" and have gone "into silence". After having passed judgment on Adam for his rebellion, God told him that "in the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."(Gen 3:19) Adam thus returned "to the ground", becoming "dust" or non-existent, as he was before he was formed into a "living soul" by God.(Gen 2:7)

At Psalms 146:3,4, it is written: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish." Thus, the dead "know not anything", "go down into silence" and "his thoughts do perish". Hence, how can the dead be tormented when they "know not anything" and his ' thoughts have perished '. Furthermore, how can "hell" be a place of torment when those who have died are silenced ?

The Hebrew word she'ohl´ and it's corresponding Greek word Ha´des means the common grave of mankind, from which those there can receive a resurrection from the dead. That is why Revelation 20:13,14, as rendered by the King James Bible, says that "the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (Greek hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." If "hell" were a place of fiery torment, then why was it thrown into a "lake of fire" ? Can "fire" be tormented ?

The expression "lake of fire" is explained as meaning the "second death", not torment. Thus, a person who goes to Gehenna is the same as the "lake of fire" or "second death", for the first "death" is the result of Adamic sin which we all have, but the expression "second death" means that when a person is judged by God as going to Gehenna, these have no hope of ever living again upon their death. Hence, the Greek word Gehenna, often rendered as "hell" or "fire of hell"(James 3:6, King James Bible) means, not torments but total destruction from which there is no resurrection.

That is why Jesus, just before his death, told the religious leaders "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen´na?(Matt 23:33) Having vehemently opposed him and seen the miraculous works, upon their death, these would never receive a resurrection, being judged worthy of Gehenna or eternal destruction.

The churches have continued to promote the teaching that God torments people for "crimes" committed in their lifetime before their death. However, the apostle Paul said that "the wages sin pays is death."(Rom 6:23) Thus, upon death, an individual's sins are wiped clean, for these have paid the penalty for sin - death. Hence, those not judged worthy of Gehenna but are in hades, the common grave of mankind, upon their resurrection during the millenial reign of Jesus Christ, these will now have an opportunity to gain God's favor and live forever on a paradise earth.(Rev 20:11-13; Rev 21:3-5; John 5:28,29)

willieH: Hi Jaareshiah... :hithere:

In this reply no disrespect or offense is intended, rather... that the readers might get a clearer picture of this FALSELY mistranslated word (HELL) and the FALSE doctrine built upon this mistranslation...

Quote from: Jaareshiah on May 14, 2008, 06:02:57 PM
The King James Bible, along with several other Bibles, have rendered the Greek word hades and Gehenna as hell in numerous scriptures that Jesus spoke.

Not to disagree bro,  :mblush: ...but they were HARDLY "numerous"...

Actually, of the 4 terms translated HELL in the KJV... (sheol - OT / hades, gehenna, tartarus - NT) JESUS only used the terms HADES and GEHENNA... and there were only 7 total occasions (days) out of 3.5 YEARS of His ministry, that He used EITHER of these words...

Which translates to Him mentioning one or the other (hades or gehenna) ONCE, every 6 months of His ministry...  :mshock:

If I mentioned something ONCE every SIX MONTHS as a teacher... it is quite a LARGE  stretch to call this numerous mentions... nor to state that I had fixed MUCH ATTENTION on this subject.  :sigh:

Here is the breakdown:

HADES...

1. "Caperneum exalted to Heaven, then brought down to HELL (hades) (Mt 11:23 / Luke 10:15 - 2 Accounts of the same occasion)

2. Lord says He will "build His church" gates of HELL wont prevail against it (Mt 16:18)

3.  Parable of rich man & Lazerus (Luke 16:23)

Well, thats ...IT... for "hades" ...3 mentions...

GEHENNA...

1.  Sermon on the mount (spoken only to the Disciples) (Matt 5:22, 29 / Mark 9:43, 45, 47 - 2 accounts of the same occasion)

2.  Warning the Apostles who to fear (Matt 10:28 / Luke 12:5 - 2 accounts of the same occasion)

3.  Upbraiding the Pharisees (Matt 23:15, Matt 23:33 - 2 uses same occasion)

4.  Warning against corruption innocents with religion! (Matt 18:9)

Thats ...IT... for "gehenna"...  4 mentions


There you are... 7 total mentions of "HELL" (hades OR gehenna) in over 1200 DAYS of Ministry...  :dontknow:

Hardly numerous, and it was certainly NOT a big agenda for him...  :dontknow:

PeaCE  :grouppray:

In  ...willieH    :dbook:

willieH: Hi Drew... :hithere:

This is written to help the readers clarify the INVALID application of FOREVER in ANY LANGUAGE... it cannot be beheld by FINITES (including myself), and therefore is an INVALID teaching.

Quote from: drewcosten on November 20, 2007, 10:20:05 PM
One of the reasons I wrote the above entry is to point out that, regardless of how one thinks the word aionios should be translated or what one thinks of the arguments for Universal Reconciliation, there simply isn't a basis for arguing that the Bible supports everlasting torment in hell for non-believers in Christ in the first place without also supporting a works-based salvation.

A quick note, ...if aionios means EVERLASTING (which it doesnt)... and is applied to "HELL"... then HELL has ALWAYS BEEN, as well as ALWAYS WILL BE... for ANYTHING ETERNAL has NO BEGINNING as well as NO END...

GOD would not put a principle before us requiring we consider it TRUTH, that we could not COMPREHEND...  He instructs us to REASON with Him... but that "REASONING" has to be based upon OUR COMPREHENSION, as well as HIS... (Is 1:18)

Never met anyone (human) YET, that IS ABLE to percieve of a state which HAS NO BEGINNING...

Because we are moving forward in TIME, and TIME continues on and on, ...somewhat gives us the ability to perceive of NO END... but NO BEGINNING?  :mshock:

The belief that ANY WORD in ANY LANGUAGE (be it Greek, English, Hebrew - whatever) can convey UNDERSTANDING of the ETERNAL is therefore INVALID

That men who are finite and cannot comprehend INFINITY... yet profess to TEACH it... is the same as one who has NEVER had the gift of SIGHT, trying to teach another who has NEVER had the gift of SIGHT, ...what COLOR is!  :rolleye:

peACe   :skittles:

In  ...willieH    :king:

Quote from: martincisneros on May 07, 2008, 08:19:00 PM
 
I remember in my pre-UR days, long before I'd ever heard of UR, I heard John Hagee spew that venom from the pulpit and thought that if that was true, then I needed to adjust my ministry to do likewise.  I picked up my Strong's Concordance and noticed, just in the KJV, the 12 to 14 references to "hell" in the New Testament and something like 122 references to heaven.  Don't quote me on that 'cause I don't have my Strong's Concordance handy.  I'm just giving a figure that I haven't checked in a really long time.  Not sure if I ever wrote it down.  

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Martin,

Good article, certainly you have spoken in the truth, Heaven is mentioned over ten times as much as hell is mentioned even in the KJV.

I checked some figures on this and am posting it as follows, these figures are taken from the KJV and may not line up with other translations as for numbers of times that either heaven or hell is used, if anything the KJV  probably uses the word hell in more verses than other translations may:

THE word Heaven occurs 582 times in 550
verses, while the word hell occurs 54 times in 54 verses.

John Hagee is not preaching the Good news,
he is preaching lies and is very convincing to those who trust in his rantings and ravings of doom and gloom and also the rapture lie, he is just as misleading in his preaching as Reverend Jim Jones was in preaching bad news driven by guilt, fear and manipulation of those who believe
their lies.

Peace,
Fire Walker

The word hell(fire) is used in the King James Bible, some 9 different times in the gospels, as at Matthew 5:22, 29,30; 10:28; 11:23;  16:18;  18:9;  23:33;  and Luke 16:23. The usage of the word hell(fire) in Mark is the same as in Matthew. It is not found in John.

Many Bibles, such as the King James Version and Catholic Douay Version, renders the Hebrew word she'ohl´ and Greek word hai´des as hell. In the King James Version, the word "hell" is rendered from she'ohl´ 31 times and from hai´des 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since she'ohl´ is also translated 31 times "grave" and 3 times "pit." In the Douay Version she'ohl´ is rendered "hell" 63 times, "pit" once, and "death" once. Inconsistency does not favor grasping the real meaning of the Bible "hell", but rather causes confusion.

Concerning this use of "hell" to translate these original words from the Hebrew and Greek, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: "HADES . . . It corresponds to 'Sheol' in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered 'Hell.'"

Collier's Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning "Hell": "First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word 'hell,' as understood today, is not a happy translation."

It is, in fact, because of the way that the word "hell" is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under "Hell" says: "fr[om] . . . helan to conceal." The MicroSoft Encarta Dictionary says "Old English hel(l) . Ultimately from an Indo-European word meaning "to conceal," which is also the ancestor of the  English word "conceal".

The word "hell" thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a 'covered over or concealed place.' In the old English dialect the expression "helling potatoes" meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar. Hence, as rendered in the King James Bible, Jonah, while in the belly of the fish, said: "Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, and said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell (Hebrew, she'ohl´) cried I, and thou heardest my voice."(Jonah 2:1,2) Jonah was "concealed" from everyone except God, but was not in a fiery place of torment.

willieH: Hi Jaareshiah...  :cloud9:

As I previously noted, many of CHRIST's mentions of Gehenna and Hades are multiple accounts of the same event...  :happygrin:

JESUS RARELY spoke of HELL(fire)... and was addressing the JEWS which were quite aware of GEHENNA, which they KNEW as a place of ultimate DISHONOR ...within THEIR (not all men's) observance of GOD... and certainly was not known or taught as some "afterlife" TORMENT CHAMBER...

BTW... only DEAD BODIES were cast into GEHENNA...  NOT living ones...

No TORMENT was experienced by the one cast into GEHENNA, however the MEMORY of  their SHAME was thereby exposed , and sorrowfully born by loved ones left behind...

Quote from: Jaareshiah on May 15, 2008, 05:14:39 AM
The word hell(fire) is used in the King James Bible, some 9 different times in the gospels, as at Matthew 5:22, 29,30; 10:28; 11:23;  16:18;  18:9;  23:33;  and Luke 16:23. The usage of the word hell(fire) in Mark is the same as in Matthew. It is not found in John.

Many Bibles, such as the King James Version and Catholic Douay Version, renders the Hebrew word she'ohl´ and Greek word hai´des as hell. In the King James Version, the word "hell" is rendered from she'ohl´ 31 times and from hai´des 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since she'ohl´ is also translated 31 times "grave" and 3 times "pit." In the Douay Version she'ohl´ is rendered "hell" 63 times, "pit" once, and "death" once. Inconsistency does not favor grasping the real meaning of the Bible "hell", but rather causes confusion.

Concerning this use of "hell" to translate these original words from the Hebrew and Greek, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: "HADES . . . It corresponds to 'Sheol' in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered 'Hell.'"

Collier's Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning "Hell": "First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word 'hell,' as understood today, is not a happy translation."

It is, in fact, because of the way that the word "hell" is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under "Hell" says: "fr[om] . . . helan to conceal." The MicroSoft Encarta Dictionary says "Old English hel(l) . Ultimately from an Indo-European word meaning "to conceal," which is also the ancestor of the  English word "conceal".

The word "hell" thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a 'covered over or concealed place.' In the old English dialect the expression "helling potatoes" meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar. Hence, as rendered in the King James Bible, Jonah, while in the belly of the fish, said: "Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, and said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell (Hebrew, she'ohl´) cried I, and thou heardest my voice." (Jonah 2:1,2) Jonah was "concealed" from everyone except God, but was not in a fiery place of torment.

:goodpost: 

This last verse in itself nicely proves that SHEOL does not indicate a place of FIRERY torment, rather it notes JONAH in a place of CONCEALMENT, known and seen only BY GOD...

peACe   :skittles:

In  ...willieH    :king:

Quote from: SoulChild on November 26, 2007, 12:12:30 AMWhy would Jesus speak of hell very little and speak of heaven 30 times more if the majority would end up in hell???  That means the topic of hell is not that important.

Not sure if you ever still drop by, even if merely as a lurker on the publicly viewable boards, but that was the Word of the Lord that you said when you said that.  Without a Postmillenial emphasis of "the gates of Hell will not prevail" against the Church beginning to overtake our UR message, then another century will simply roll by with Universalists having been very little salt and very little light 'cause of the tendency in that message alone, if it's separated from the Bible with other balancing and counter balancing truths in it, is to create the differing weights and unjust scales that would want to just go jump on a hill somewhere with a guitar singing Kumbaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kum_Ba_Ya) and never get much done with the Church and with the world that God has given to us.