Tentmaker Forum

willieH: Hello to all  :grouppray:  ... :hithere:

I was on another forum, discussing CONDEMNATION with ET believers... During the conversation, the Lord inpired the following answer to their claims that the WORD notes GOD will CONDEMN those who do not "respond" to CHRIST...

I find this teaching of CONDEMNATION by the WORD or the Father, contrary... for the following reasons...


(1) CHRIST was SENT NOT to CONDEMN -- John 3:17 -- (and did NOT CONDEMN during His ministry), and...


(2) ALWAYS did the WILL of YHVH -- John 5:30 / 4:34 --  (which sent Him NOT to CONDEMN)... and BOTH are UNCHANGING entites -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 so...


(3) if the WORD was SENT NOT to CONDEMN, by the One (YHVH) WILLING it (the WORD) NOT to CONDEMN...


(4)  And ALL JUDGMENT was committed to the SON (WORD) who was SENT NOT... to CONDEMN... then


(5)  HOW does one derive CONDEMNATION coming from EITHER?  :dontknow:

None of them gave a response to this, Instead, they banned me for this and a few other posts objecting to HELL...  :pitiful:

In summary...

It seems to my understanding, ...that YHVH, in order to stay in line with HIS WORD whom He sent to NOT CONDEMN... and during His ministry, CHRIST did NOT CONDEMN, and was ALWAYS doing the WILL of YHVH, ...then if follows that the WILL of YHVH must be to NOT CONDEMN either!

The JUDGMENT that is done by the WORD does OTHER than CONDEMN, for it was SENT NOT to CONDEMN...   :JCThink:

Do you have any thoughts?   :Chinscratch:

pEACE...

Those that believe are saved, those that don't are condemned according to Mark 16.  How did Thomas, Saul of Tarsus, Elymas, and others experience condemnation either directly from Jesus or through the Apostles?  Proof of the Gospel preached.  John 3:18 says that those that don't believe are condemned already.  But the Gospel is clear that you can move from a position of condemnation to belief.  I don't want to get this drowned in the minutia of freewill verses sovereignty, but which ever anyone's perspective would be of how someone became a believer as God exercised that Sovereignty by the Scriptural means He declared that He would exercise it, then they clearly moved from a position of condemnation to that of being a believer.  John chapter 3 and 1Corinthians 11 make that condemnation out to be sickness and disease because as you study the 3rd chapter of John, the "everlasting life" is from beholding the New Testament "serpent on the pole" so that you wouldn't perish, and those not rightly discerning the Body in 1Corinthians 11 are said to be suffering this fate.  The point, though, hopefully isn't lost in what I'm saying, that it's something related to this life and isn't a matter of burning in "Hell" in some type of afterlife whipping post.  I haven't totally ruled out such a place from the standpoint of still making sure that I can reconcile things with every single passage, both Old and New Testament, but with being as meticulous as I know how to be, the evidence of the afterlife barbecue is minimally in serious jeapardy.  Mark 4 seems to conclusively answer all things, according to the 13th verse.  And in no process of the development of a seed and of a crop is fire ever beneficial for anything except for cleaning the garbage out of the soil.  It's never a matter of perpetually frying some parts of the harvest, while eternally making popcorn out of another segment, etc., etc.

IMO these are the same ones who always tout that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ....... and that those who do not believe are condemned already.

It is true that unbelievers are condemned but what are they condemned to? They were born subject to vanity and have an excuse for the sin that rules over the spirit of man in them...... those who have been conceived again through the seed that is Christ are without excuse having been given the law of faith that is more powerful than the law of sin, the principality and vanity within all that leads to sin

But who is in Christ other than Christ?

God is against sin and Jesus still does not have a place to rest His head because of sin in what is suppose to be the body of Christ here on earth

Being a Christian is more than an act of Grace but because they have been told that they are saved and are now seated in heavenly places all of "their ends" have already been reached but "the death" that they think will be swallowed up in victory

Sad  :sigh:

Blessings

Doug

willieH: Hi Martin...  :cloud9:

Quote from: martincisneros on May 15, 2009, 08:54:32 AM
Those that believe are saved, those that don't are condemned according to Mark 16.

They just are yet to believe, Martin... it is our DISOBEDIENCE to the LAW which (appears to) CONDEMN us, not GOD nor CHRIST... 

YHVH and CHRIST would be 2 faced if EITHER condemned anyone! 

For CHRIST exclusively and ALWAYS did the WILL of YHVH... who sent Him to NOT CONDEMN... which He did NOT...  :dontknow:

QuoteHow did Thomas, Saul of Tarsus, Elymas, and others experience condemnation either directly from Jesus or through the Apostles?  Proof of the Gospel preached.  John 3:18 says that those that don't believe are condemned already.  But the Gospel is clear that you can move from a position of condemnation to belief.

Who is CONDEMNING them Martin?  It is their SIN... not GOD, nor CHRIST... Their DISOBEDIENCE which (irregardless of "sovereignty" positions)... "condemns" them... and FAITH to believe is exclusively in the HANDS of CHRIST to author, who by the way, is IMPARTIAL...

QuoteI don't want to get this drowned in the minutia of freewill verses sovereignty, but which ever anyone's perspective would be of how someone became a believer as God exercised that Sovereignty by the Scriptural means He declared that He would exercise it, then they clearly moved from a position of condemnation to that of being a believer.

You are welcome to disagree, but I see this is a slight misobservation, for ALL that anyone IS at ANY POINT within their existence, is done while AMIDST and WITHIN  the HAND of the POTTER -- Jer 18:4 -- the "vessel" was MARRED while IN the hand of the POTTER... (vessel of DISHONOR - of the SAME LUMP -- "made" by the POTTER = Rom 9:21)

QuoteJohn chapter 3 and 1Corinthians 11 make that condemnation out to be sickness and disease because as you study the 3rd chapter of John, the "everlasting life" is from beholding the New Testament "serpent on the pole" so that you wouldn't perish, and those not rightly discerning the Body in 1Corinthians 11 are said to be suffering this fate.  The point, though, hopefully isn't lost in what I'm saying, that it's something related to this life and isn't a matter of burning in "Hell" in some type of afterlife whipping post.  I haven't totally ruled out such a place from the standpoint of still making sure that I can reconcile things with every single passage, both Old and New Testament, but with being as meticulous as I know how to be, the evidence of the afterlife barbecue is minimally in serious jeapardy.

:laugh:  Thanks for the giggle bro... What most fail to understand, is that there is NO CONDEMNATION, there is only THE PROCESS... which occurs in the HAND of the POTTER... He does not CONDEMN the clay for being IMPERFECT while in His Hand... Through the PROCESS of SHAPING, (which includes IMPERFECTION) does the CLAY arrive at the GLORIOUS and HONORABLE and ETERNAL vessel, that is become the SON of the MOST HIGH, YHVH who IS ALL in ALL...

QuoteMark 4 seems to conclusively answer all things, according to the 13th verse.  And in no process of the development of a seed and of a crop is fire ever beneficial for anything except for cleaning the garbage out of the soil.  It's never a matter of perpetually frying some parts of the harvest, while eternally making popcorn out of another segment, etc., etc.

It is in THIS LIFE, which is FULL of "FIRE" of all sorts, that the BRIMSTONE of the WORD of GOD, shapes us...   




Some have ears and hear, some don't... ALL is INTENTIONAL... and  ALL is according to the WILL of YHVH -- Eph 1:11...

:mock:  this is, "laughing boy", signing off for now!   :pointlaugh:

Quote from: willieH on May 16, 2009, 02:41:01 AM
:laugh:  Thanks for the giggle bro... What most fail to understand, is that there is NO CONDEMNATION, there is only THE PROCESS... which occurs in the HAND of the POTTER... He does not CONDEMN the clay for being IMPERFECT while in His Hand... Through the PROCESS of SHAPING, (which includes IMPERFECTION) does the CLAY arrive at the GLORIOUS and HONORABLE and ETERNAL vessel, that is become the SON of the MOST HIGH, YHVH who IS ALL in ALL...

Awesome!  We are all clay being shaped.

Some of us "clay" have just realized that God is building us (all) for good (perfection)!
Some of us "clay" think that most of the other "clay" is going to be BBQd forever.
Some of us "clay" don't even think/realize that we are clay.
Some of us "clay" don't even realize there is a God!

Its a process and we are all at different stages, yet we can interact with all the other "clay".  We might think we can interfere with the process for all the other "clay", but only if its part of God's plan in the first place!

WOW.  Puts things in perspective eh?

willieH: Hi legoman!  :hithere:

Quote from: legoman on May 16, 2009, 03:07:34 AM

Quote from: willieH on May 16, 2009, 02:41:01 AM
:laugh:  Thanks for the giggle bro... What most fail to understand, is that there is NO CONDEMNATION, there is only THE PROCESS... which occurs in the HAND of the POTTER... He does not CONDEMN the clay for being IMPERFECT while in His Hand... Through the PROCESS of SHAPING, (which includes IMPERFECTION) does the CLAY arrive at the GLORIOUS and HONORABLE and ETERNAL vessel, that is become the SON of the MOST HIGH, YHVH who IS ALL in ALL...

Awesome!  We are all clay being shaped.

Some of us "clay" have just realized that God is building us (all) for good (perfection)!
Some of us "clay" think that most of the other "clay" is going to be BBQd forever.
Some of us "clay" don't even think/realize that we are clay.
Some of us "clay" don't even realize there is a God!

Its a process and we are all at different stages, yet we can interact with all the other "clay".  We might think we can interfere with the process for all the other "clay", but only if its part of God's plan in the first place!

WOW.  Puts things in perspective eh?

:iagree:  amen bro... there isn't even one speck of dust which blows (apparently) aimlessly in the wind, that GOD did not PURPOSELY insert into His Creation... :yes:

When you look at the process of CLAY being SHAPED by even the most gifted POTTER, the CLAY goes through moments of processing that certainly do not indicate or avail in those moments, ...its COMPLETED and PERFECTLY beautiful state! 

Interestingly enough, the CLAY must go through FIRE to get to that state!

:Peace: me-bratha!  :afFro:

Just read your OP again willie.  Your posts are really helping me out lately  :winkgrin: though I'm possibly getting more confused...

Anyway good point.  Everyone (ETers) assumes judgment = condemnation.  Judgment is the big scary boogie man that "condemns" to hell.  No one wants judgment. 

Yet it is the complete opposite!  When thy judgments come in the earth, the people LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS!

We are not condemned by being judged.  We are condemned by sinning!  If we aren't judged, we will carry on sinning.

Thankfully we will all be judged eventually, therefore we will all eventually leave the condemnation of sin!

Does that sound right?

Legoman

 :cloud9: Hi Legoman......I just wanted to interject something from the scripture you quoted. From a sons of God standpoint, He is making us to be His judgments in the earth.

Not because we are to have a ministry of condemnation and go around pronouncing judgments over everyone, but because the bread of His presence in us, will bring brokenness and repentance. And then will the people want to learn of His righteousness. I say this, because He allowed me to see a taste of it. Blessings....

Well, glory be!!!!  :mshock: :mshock: :mshock: I was finally able to get back on here again.  :happy3: :happy3: :cloud9:

Willie, you are amazing.  :thumbsup:

CHB

willieH: Hi legobro... :hithere:

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:50:12 PM
Just read your OP again willie.  Your posts are really helping me out lately  :winkgrin: though I'm possibly getting more confused...

Anyway good point.  Everyone (ETers) assumes judgment = condemnation.  Judgment is the big scary boogie man that "condemns" to hell.  No one wants judgment. 

Yet it is the complete opposite!  When thy judgments come in the earth, the people LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS!

We are not condemned by being judged.  We are condemned by sinning!  If we aren't judged, we will carry on sinning.

Thankfully we will all be judged eventually, therefore we will all eventually leave the condemnation of sin!

Does that sound right?

Legoman

AMEN!  :bgdance:

willieH: Hi Rebecca... :hithere:

Quote from: Cardinal on May 18, 2009, 05:24:41 PM
:cloud9: Hi Legoman......I just wanted to interject something from the scripture you quoted. From a sons of God standpoint, He is making us to be His judgments in the earth.

Not because we are to have a ministry of condemnation and go around pronouncing judgments over everyone, but because the bread of His presence in us, will bring brokenness and repentance. And then will the people want to learn of His righteousness. I say this, because He allowed me to see a taste of it. Blessings....

AMEN!  You seem to always have the hammer! (hitting it right on the head!)

willieH: Hi CHB!  :cloud9:

Quote from: CHB on May 18, 2009, 06:48:55 PM
Well, glory be!!!!  :mshock: :mshock: :mshock: I was finally able to get back on here again.  :happy3: :happy3: :cloud9:

Willie, you are amazing.  :thumbsup:

CHB

As are you my dear friend, as are YOU!  :dsunny:

My  :2c:

All that is not eternal (sin, evil, anything that brings mortality or corruption and so on) will be condemned. It seems that some of these condemned things in Scripture are personified like wisdom is personified. The creation of man (all people) is very good in Gods eyes so it cannot be people who are condemned in an eternal way.

cp