Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
What is the "bread alone"?
stones are the laws written, satan told him to turn them into bread, bread alone is the written word
Absolutely agree . . .so . . .then what you'd have to then also say is that the written word isn't ENOUGH .. .yes? That basing a belief according to what is written would be ill-advised . . .yes?
Without the "proceeding" word a "flowing/moving/breathing" word. One that isn't already written in a book, but instead, one that is written upon the hearts . . .which goes back to "UPON THIS ROCK". It's the INWARD unveiling in us that Christ builds his church on . . .his church consists of direct revelational truth from God to man. "That" word is what leads us to ascended places from which we enter into different perspectives of kingdom principles . . .from which . . .when we do read what "is" written, we see it to be saying completely different things than reasoning and logic has taught.
The proceeding word is a Word that moves, that flows "from" us. The kingdom of God does not come by observation, it's "in you".
"For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life...."
Yahweh wrote on the tablets of stone; Jesus in the earth.
Ezekiel 36:26;
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh
2 Corinthians 3:3;
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Ephesians 2:15;
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.
His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace
Quote from: Nathan on October 13, 2011, 10:05:52 PM
Absolutely agree . . .so . . .then what you'd have to then also say is that the written word isn't ENOUGH .. .yes? That basing a belief according to what is written would be ill-advised . . .yes?
Without the "proceeding" word a "flowing/moving/breathing" word. One that isn't already written in a book, but instead, one that is written upon the hearts . . .which goes back to "UPON THIS ROCK". It's the INWARD unveiling in us that Christ builds his church on . . .his church consists of direct revelational truth from God to man. "That" word is what leads us to ascended places from which we enter into different perspectives of kingdom principles . . .from which . . .when we do read what "is" written, we see it to be saying completely different things than reasoning and logic has taught.
The proceeding word is a Word that moves, that flows "from" us. The kingdom of God does not come by observation, it's "in you".
I'm pretty much with you, although I pause just a little with your statement "basing a belief according to what is written would be ill-advised.." I think I may understand what you truly believe, but I'd personally say it is important to base our beliefs on what is written, ALONG WITH the Spirit's enlightenment and revelation - what He writes on our heart - remembering the written and revealed work together.
Amen, not JUST the Bread, but also "every word proceeding". IMO, if a person doesn't have the written, they can still know God, because He can reveal Himself any way He pleases. But to those of us who have been given the written (
one of the ways He reveals Himself) I believe it behooves us even more to handle with care. By His grace may I do so. Because to whom much is given, much is required.
You're right, this is where we differ and I challenge.
It's not that I don't embrace Scripture. I do. But I don't embrace "my' understanding of what I "think" it's saying. I don't embrace what I think the original text and meanings state . . .there are too many variables. The carnality in my own mind can take things completely out of context and deceive me into embracing something that shackles me rather than liberates me in my relationship with the Father. I take them all under consideration, but without the original author "revealing" the meaning, it's all just a bunch of religious jargon. It's clear, and I've stated this before but most continue to brush it off, but even Scripture makes it clear that those who "thought" they knew it best back when Jesus literally walked amongst them, they didn't have a clue what Jesus was telling them then, anymore than the professors of our day can comprehend spiritual truth now.
There are many instances where the principles and patterns make it clear that we're not to rely on the tangible . . . I find it interesting that on one hand, you agree with what I was implying, while at the same time, you disagree with what I was implying.
Do we think that without a Bible in our hand that we can't hear what God is saying? That we won't know what God is doing or wanting us to do? Sometimes I wonder if many out there haven't done with the Bible what many others have done with everything else God has given them in that they've taken what was created to bring freedom into their lives and they've made a bondage out of it. I believe Scripture should "add to" my relationship with God, not be the foundation of my relationship. I believe the foundation should be God directly revealing Christ to my spirit . . .the Word written upon my heart . . ."that" should take precedence over the word translated many times over, only to be then "interpreted" by the filtering system in my own head.
I didn't write the verse that was originally written in Deuteronomy, nor did I quote it, to emphasize it's truth as Jesus was doing. I merely created a conversation to not just cause a pause about what "I'm" saying, but to cause a pause about what many have already assumed as fact. And you've taken the bait. :Sparkletooth: The "fact" is, Jesus quoted this passage that was originally talking about manna . . .which like the bread, we understand it's not about literal manna "or" bread, but it's representing a "type". Bread "alone" is not gonna cut it. When I first saw this, the first thing that came to mind was Goliath, believe it or not . . .but all the symbolism that oozes from that story . . .the stones that David hand-picked out of the stream . . .they represent Christ who is the rock and cornerstone within every one of us. But it wasn't enough that the stone entered the forehead (the mind) of Goliath, just as it's not enough to have bread alone . . .but his head had to be removed entirely . . .Eating bread of the kingdom without God revealing it's depth's only results in religious banters.
Definitions and word discussions isn't what transforms death to life. They are accompaniment pieces of the orchestra, but they're not the primary instruments that carry the melodic truths. Yet many will rely on them so much that they want to rewrite the entire song of the Spirit based on a word definition, rather than see it for what it is and embrace the spiritual patterns that are unlocked through the harmony of each instrument under the primary instruments carrying the melody. What is written only comes to life when the Spirit breathes upon it and REVEALS to us the depths of it's truths. Flesh and blood can not teach us spiritual truth, yet most will go to great lengths defending flesh and blood tactics.
Man can not LIVE on bread alone . . . but by every "proceeding word" of God. I want to be totally free from every limitation. I want to be like the wind, you can't tell from where it comes or to where it goes .. . I believe that is what God desires for all who follow after him. He is outside the confines of natural understanding . . .and he's created a place there for us to flourish in as well, but I can't do that if I continue to emphasize what natural eyes can already see. I'm no longer satisfied with the bread alone. I want the proceeding word of God to flow through me.
Nathan:
You're right, this is where we differ and I challenge.
Where are you saying we differ, and what are you challenging? I challenge that we need to be very careful with statements we make as far as how we handle the written Word - that we need to be as sure as we can be that we don't make ambiguous or half-statements that leave things appearing that we don't embrace scripture. I also challenge that Jesus didn't say we don't live by bread. He said we don't live by bread ALONE, which is what I believe I clearly posted.
Nathan:
But I don't embrace "my' understanding of what I "think" it's saying. I don't embrace what I think the original text and meanings state . . .there are too many variables. The carnality in my own mind can take things completely out of context and deceive me into embracing something that shackles me rather than liberates me in my relationship with the Father. I take them all under consideration, but without the original author "revealing" the meaning, it's all just a bunch of religious jargon. It's clear, and I've stated this before but most continue to brush it off, but even Scripture makes it clear that those who "thought" they knew it best back when Jesus literally walked amongst them, they didn't have a clue what Jesus was telling them then, anymore than the professors of our day can comprehend spiritual truth now.
There are many instances where the principles and patterns make it clear that we're not to rely on the tangible . . . I find it interesting that on one hand, you agree with what I was implying, while at the same time, you disagree with what I was implying.
While we're talking about our mind, thanks for bringing that up. I also believe we can think we're hearing from God "inside", then base our beliefs on that - apart from scriptural support - and be off base too. There are thousands of examples. Search the net, go to different churches, see what people are "hearing from God". Some of it is, some of it's not. How do I know? One way is if they speak things against what's written.
Not sure what you find interesting. I thought I was pretty clear that I agreed with much of what you're saying, i.e., that's the scripture needs Spirit-revelation. Don't know how many times I've said that - over and over. I just think we need to not make statements and teach things that appear that we're cavalierly dismissing the scriptures. That why I said I believe I know how you truly believe, but suggested a little different angle of view. You're not the only one that can challenge, and I hope you don't believe you've gone beyond being able to learn from others, and are only here to teach and challenge.
Nathan:
Do we think that without a Bible in our hand that we can't hear what God is saying? That we won't know what God is doing or wanting us to do? Sometimes I wonder if many out there haven't done with the Bible what many others have done with everything else God has given them in that they've taken what was created to bring freedom into their lives and they've made a bondage out of it. I believe Scripture should "add to" my relationship with God, not be the foundation of my relationship. I believe the foundation should be God directly revealing Christ to my spirit . . .the Word written upon my heart . . ."that" should take precedence over the word translated many times over, only to be then "interpreted" by the filtering system in my own head.
Did you read my post? I said people can know God without what's written. Don't just preach. Listen.
Nathan:
I didn't write the verse that was originally written in Deuteronomy, nor did I quote it, to emphasize it's truth as Jesus was doing. I merely created a conversation to not just cause a pause about what "I'm" saying, but to cause a pause about what many have already assumed as fact. And you've taken the bait. :Sparkletooth: The "fact" is, Jesus quoted this passage that was originally talking about manna . . .which like the bread, we understand it's not about literal manna "or" bread, but it's representing a "type". Bread "alone" is not gonna cut it.
Call it biting if you want. But again, Jesus didn't say we don't live on bread. He said we don't live on bread alone - meaning the bread is important - even vital. Tell the Israelites they didn't need the manna.
Nathan:
Definitions and word discussions isn't what transforms death to life. They are accompaniment pieces of the orchestra, but they're not the primary instruments that carry the melodic truths. Yet many will rely on them so much that they want to rewrite the entire song of the Spirit based on a word definition, rather than see it for what it is and embrace the spiritual patterns that are unlocked through the harmony of each instrument under the primary instruments carrying the melody. What is written only comes to life when the Spirit breathes upon it and REVEALS to us the depths of it's truths. Flesh and blood can not teach us spiritual truth, yet most will go to great lengths defending flesh and blood tactics.
Man can not LIVE on bread alone . . . but by every "proceeding word" of God. I want to be totally free from every limitation. I want to be like the wind, you can't tell from where it comes or to where it goes .. . I believe that is what God desires for all who follow after him. He is outside the confines of natural understanding . . .and he's created a place there for us to flourish in as well, but I can't do that if I continue to emphasize what natural eyes can already see. I'm no longer satisfied with the bread alone. I want the proceeding word of God to flow through me.
I'm not sure what you're addressing. I've emphasized over and over the need for the Spirit and Spirit-revelation. And I don't believe you or either one will ever be without limitation, until we've taken on immortality. Without limitations, we're likely to mix things in with what really is Spirit-inspired, that really aren't of the Spirit at all, but of our own imagination.
26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48I am that bread of life.
49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
--John 6
Quote from: BelovedServantEphesians 2:15;
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.
His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace
Does this mean he is uniting Grace and Law in one new man?
Sorry Nathan, but those are some of my honest understandings brother.
Molly, that's interesting. With Jesus saying not to live on bread alone, but then saying HE's the manna/bread, that's a bit of a head scratcher. He must be talking about two different "breads"? Because obviously He's the Alpha and Omega, in Him we live, breathe, etc....
Well, yes Molly, He fulfilled the law in His flesh, His own flesh, which no other mere mortal could do.
He came to do the Will of God the Father, who never desired sacrifice.
Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
But why? One would ask!
John 3:16
Pride and vanity of natural Adam sill thinks that the great plan of God is about the creation when the truth is just the opposite — it's about Him!
Quote from: jabcat on October 14, 2011, 05:41:18 AM
Sorry Nathan, but those are some of my honest understandings brother.
Molly, that's interesting. With Jesus saying not to live on bread alone, but then saying HE's the manna/bread, that's a bit of a head scratcher. He must be talking about two different "breads"? Because obviously He's the Alpha and Omega, in Him we live, breathe, etc....
He's talking about two different breads, yes.
And, manna is a third thing. It did not give the Israelites everlasting life. But a shadow of Christ?
1 Corinthians 10;
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was CHRIST.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 14, 2011, 06:00:47 AM
1 Corinthians 10;
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was CHRISit T.
True. But the spiritual food and drink must be the rock?
Because the manna they are given does not impart eternal life. Jesus seems to distance himself from it.
Jesus was with them, but still at a distance, as most do not make it into the promised land.
It must have something to do with this verse:
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing.
[Heb 9:8]
The first tabernacle=Adam's body=Moses tabernacle in the wilderness
The Bread of Life and the Hidden Manna
By Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/BreakingBread/2.html
An omer of this manna was laid up in a golden pot, (Heb. 9:4), and kept before the testimony, or the ark, when it was made!
Then check this out!:
Joshua 5:12;
The manna ceased on the day after they had eaten some of the produce of the land,
so that the sons of Israel no longer had manna,
but they ate some of the yield of the land of Canaan during that year.
Yes, it was actually a miracle food. They were only to take as much as they needed for the day. A double portion only the day before the Sabbath.
The word manna means, What is it? lol
But, I think, only a shadow of Christ, the true heavenly bread.
ps I think Nathan is talking about the hidden manna.
pps The golden pot signifies the sons of God containing the hidden manna of Christ.
As you said, multiple types of bread.
Quote from: jabcat on October 14, 2011, 03:03:15 AM
Nathan:
You're right, this is where we differ and I challenge.
Where are you saying we differ, and what are you challenging? I challenge that we need to be very careful with statements we make as far as how we handle the written Word - that we need to be as sure as we can be that we don't make ambiguous or half-statements that leave things appearing that we don't embrace scripture. I also challenge that Jesus didn't say we don't live by bread. He said we don't live by bread ALONE, which is what I believe I clearly posted.
The difference is, it's assumed that we're to base our belief according to what we think Scripture is saying and "i'm' saying that we're not. I'm saying that we're to base our belief according to the Word IN US. Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes from the Word . . .Faith, wihch is where my belief originates, comes by "hearing" . . .he that hath an ear let him hear . . . that's not talking about the visible and tangible, that's talking about invisible . . .inward . . .the still small voice in every one of us. FROM THERE we read the Scriptures. My challenge is to not become defensive against me, but rather taste and see for yourselves. Scripture already leaves all kinds of hints at the importance of NOT relying on our thinking but instead "receive" from God directly the revelation, the unveiling of the nature of who Jesus is.
It appears that every time I have this conversation, it's assumed I'm saying the Scripture is not important. I've never once said it's not, nor have I said it's unnecessary to read. My whole intent is to give A DIFFERENT perspective on how to go about applying it. That's why I keep repeated "Everything is spiritual". I know it's controversial. I know you think much of my stuff is illogical and others even accuse me of "claiming" it's spiritual so I can put my own personal spin on everything and make it look like I'm the only one right. But that's another thing I repeat often . . .it's not about being "right" as much as it is about being "one". And in order to BE one with each other, there needs to also be an understanding that the oneness is not a MENTAL thing but a SPIRITUAL one. Meaning that we don't have to agree with everything the other is saying in order to be at one with each other. Another thing we've talked about before is every body REQUIRES opposites in order for there to be unity. We can't all be right hands . . .some of us have to be left hands to balance out the right hands . . .but we're still hands.
While we're talking about our mind, thanks for bringing that up. I also believe we can think we're hearing from God "inside", then base our beliefs on that - apart from scriptural support - and be off base too. There are thousands of examples. Search the net, go to different churches, see what people are "hearing from God". Some of it is, some of it's not. How do I know? One way is if they speak things against what's written.Not sure what you find interesting. I thought I was pretty clear that I agreed with much of what you're saying, i.e., that's the scripture needs Spirit-revelation. Don't know how many times I've said that - over and over. I just think we need to not make statements and teach things that appear that we're cavalierly dismissing the scriptures. That why I said I believe I know how you truly believe, but suggested a little different angle of view. You're not the only one that can challenge, and I hope you don't believe you've gone beyond being able to learn from others, and are only here to teach and challenge.Yeah, the thing about hearing the noise of one's mind and thinking it's the sound of truth . .to your example . . .going to all the different churches around and seeing they are totally convinced "they" have heard from God even though their message TO US is more destructve than it is inspiring. And that's the whole point . . .you can TELL the differnce between what is spiritual and what is natural by the end results. It's not because they believe differently that reveals whether it's of God or man, it's the fact that the result has restriction rather than liberation. God is infinite and it's always his desire to bring that infinity in to us . . .so when the message becomes one of caution and limitation, for me, that's a signpost that someone went off track. But it's not because I don't understand them or that their opinion is confusing to me.
The suggestion that I would think that I'm the only one that can challenge and assume I'm here to only teach others . . .again, I"ve never said, nor purposefully indicated any such thing. I'm not the only one here that pushes the spiritual emphasis on things, there "are" others here who can also embrace these things. I sense that my comments about the order of how I embrace Scripture has hit a nerve . .again . .
Nathan, I guess I could say more, but I don't think you would hear them.
Blessings, James.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 14, 2011, 06:29:36 AM
Then check this out!:
Joshua 5:12;
The manna ceased on the day after they had eaten some of the produce of the land,
so that the sons of Israel no longer had manna,
but they ate some of the yield of the land of Canaan during that year.
I think it means they entered Canaan on First Fruits.
My :2c:
I feel pulled in the same way....waiting for my spirit to lead,sensing the spirit to move and me to pick-up on it.
the word is good but is an outward manifestation of what has already occured.I'm waiting for it to be dropped in my spirit for something new between me and the Father.
My search led me to different teachers ,who led me to different things in the scriptures that allowed me to grow in maturity.Jesus did the same thing but eventually only did what the Father showed him
We all have to go through a process,some of us might go quicker but no matter where we are, we can be a blessing and in God's plan
blessings :icon_king:
that's the thing onlytruth, i've never said we shouldn't be Spirit-led or be spiritual, etc. just to be clear. we definitely should be. :thumbsup: blessings.
Quote from: Nathan on October 13, 2011, 04:00:14 PM
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
What is the "bread alone"?
Maybe I am thinking in the physical flesh again but my understanding of this verse is.
Our bodies should not live by food alone, it also needs God's word to sustain it. I kind of think of it as growing up. Our bodies need food/bread to help us grow up to be healthy human beings and the word of God helps us to grow up to be spiritually minded. When I say spiritually minded I mean to, think on things that are good, (Phil. 4:8) and have the fruits of the Spirit.
CHB
If it were His intention
and He withdrew His Spirit and Breath,
all mankind would perish together
and man would return to the dust.
Hi Nate :icon_flower:
Indeed, The Living Manna~ the TRUTH, the Life and SPIRIT, THE LIVING WORD[ Breath]~~ we feed from the ascended Christ,shown after the Pattern of Jesus BREAKING Literal wine and Bread ~
The carnal man also made By Him fed from the Manna, suffice was never Enough as we move from Child to a SON~ The pattern never Changes ~
Shalom ~
:icon_flower:
Quote from: CHB on October 16, 2011, 08:12:36 PM
the word of God helps us to grow up to be spiritually minded. When I say spiritually minded I mean to, think on things that are good, (Phil. 4:8) and have the fruits of the Spirit.
CHB
Amen C - written, spoken, and revealed. :thumbsup:
blessings to all in this conversation
Due to the fact that I really didn't have a whole lot of time when addressing some of what you (Jabcat) wrote, I don't mind continuing on with this conversation if you don't . . . it "is" somewhat of the "crux" of where I'm coming from so it's still very relevant to the conversations as well as any other posts I have out there past, and future. It's all based on "this" idealism that the Church Jesus built, is building and continues to build is based on individual revelation from God directly. It's an inward experience of the heart that goes beyond the comprehension of the mind. it's "based" not on knowledge, but on relationship.
This is why it throws me when a person will bring so much knowledge to any given topic, yet at the same time, confess they themselves have no personal relationship with God or Jesus either one. To "not" have the relationship, then the knowledge becomes useless and futile.
Yet on the other side of the coin, when I present the idea that perhaps we would benefit more if we were to rely more on what God speaks to us inwardly through our relationship with him, rather than what our "knowledge" of Scripture can comprehend, it causes all kinds of alarms in people. Bottom line, when it comes to Scripture, the quickest way to say it is, read it spiritually and not literally. But that poses all kinds of questions in others as well because the first thing that pops up is . . ."what is spiritual"?
I remember in past conversations pertaining specifically with the book of Revelation, I was told you can't spiritualize what's already spiritual. Yet they would turn around and claim that the events being depicted are "literally" going to happen. It it was already spiritual then how can they think it's going to happen in the literal? My personal understanding of "spiritual" is merely "inwardly" applying it. That's where the still small voice resides . . ."in" me. The church that Jesus was building based on direct revelation from God . . "I"/"we" are that church and the Spirit of Truth preaches to us the eternal truths that bring illumination within us and it is the driving forces that brings the river of life flowing "out" of our bellies.
But again, for me, that all is thwarted when I let my head explain to my heart it's opinion and interpretation of what it thinks Scripture is trying to say. Scripture isn't meant for my head but my heart. It's the pearl that isn't to be offered to the swine. My carnal mind is the unclean thing that pearl-natured truth is not to be stomping on. Does this discredit Scripture? If I am, it's totally unintentional. I believe it's realigning the power that lies within Scripture.
Having said that . . . you shared
While we're talking about our mind, thanks for bringing that up. I also believe we can think we're hearing from God "inside", then base our beliefs on that - apart from scriptural support - and be off base too. There are thousands of examples. Search the net, go to different churches, see what people are "hearing from God". Some of it is, some of it's not. How do I know? One way is if they speak things against what's written.
The last line here . . . you want to base your conclusions according to whether or not someone is saying something "against" what is written. What if my personal understanding of what is written is already altered or tainted? How often did Jesus go against what was "written"? Reflex answer . . .he never did. Rephrase the question? How often DID THEY "THINK" Jesus went against what was written? He couldn't even remove a head of wheat from it's stalk as he walked through a field without them accusing him of "breaking the law". I'm not so sure relying on my personal opinion of what I think Scripture is saying is "the" greatest litmus test to know whether someone is hearing from God or not.
Not sure what you find interesting. I thought I was pretty clear that I agreed with much of what you're saying, i.e., that's the scripture needs Spirit-revelation. Don't know how many times I've said that - over and over. I just think we need to not make statements and teach things that appear that we're cavalierly dismissing the scriptures. That why I said I believe I know how you truly believe, but suggested a little different angle of view. You're not the only one that can challenge, and I hope you don't believe you've gone beyond being able to learn from others, and are only here to teach and challenge.
What I found interesting was, you stated at the beginning that you agreed with most of what I said, but then you spent the rest of the post disagreeing with what I said. I just found that interesting. The part that I underlined is what I really feel is the bottom of this conversation we're having. You're feeling that I'm cavalierly dismissing the Scripture when I state that we should rely first on the Word IN us before we put our trust in what our minds interpret in what's been written. But that's not what I was doing. "that's" why I mentioned the "challenge" part. The challenge is to try to embrace the voice within us "first" and "then" from there, read what the Scripture is saying. The inner voice of his Spirit brings us to an ascended place in him so that we read from Grace rather than logic.
When we read from Grace, we'll see that it's no wonder that Jesus didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery, even though, those all around truly felt they LOGICALLY had reason to stone her. Grace is not bound by logic. But our mind is. Until it's TRULY renewed by the Spirit. Which, by the way, is really the reason why it needs to be renewed. Spiritual renewal enables the logical mind to come to rest and become submissive to what the Spirit is revealing. And unrenewed mind will always argue spiritual understanding.
I agree with very much of that Nathan (if not "all" of it - to know that, I'd really have to dwell on it a bit) - except for this part. Look carefully at what I said. "Appears". That's why I'd ask you to not miss some things I've already said. I'd prefer for this to be private, as we've had a few discussions in private before. But as it's remained public, I guess I'll continue as such. One of my reasons for trying to be less than direct when we've talked, is that I don't want to appear judging or condemning. I've said several things repeatedly, which I'll repeat. :laughing7:
I have many of my own mistakes, blindnesses, and misses of the mark (sin) - so I have no stones I can legitimately throw. So maybe what I say here could be helpful rather than critical or hurtful? What I've tried to carefully say, addresses this; you said I think you cavalierly dismiss the scriptures. THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID, NOR BELIEVE I HAVE EVER SAID TO YOU. Notice; I've said repeatedly I believe I know how you feel about the scriptures, that you respect them and refer to them. I've also though said, perhaps too subtly, so that it appears I'M saying something different than what I mean - so I'll be very direct now with what I would prefer to be said privately, if at all. You have much good to say. I believe I know how you feel about the scriptures. (ahead of time, I'll apologize and admit my own failures) but I believe in the midst of all that, you tend to make statements that could APPEAR to be dismissive, at least somewhat, of scripture. (I'll add right here, it could be my own perception/interpretation/disposition). In my first post, I gave you an example with the sentence I used of how I PERSONALLY see it/would say it, which really only added one word to your sentence. The word would be ONLY or EXCLUSIVELY - i.e., "we shouldn't base doctrine ONLY or EXCLUSIVELY on what is written". Do you see the difference between saying "we shouldn't base our doctrine on what is written", and "we shouldn't base our doctrine ONLY on what is written"? Take that and go to the 'spiritual' discussion. If in a conversation about scripture, I say "no, it's all spiritual". Then IMO, that sounds like it intimates there's no literal. If someone says "we can know God without a Bible in our hand", I say yes, but if we have the scriptures (and we do) then is that statement even necessary? At least without explanation and/or being expounded upon? Because standing alone, that statement can APPEAR, give the sense of, that I don't think the scriptures are important or necessary.
Now, you know what? On one hand I believe I should just overlook this, and not "pick" at you about it. And that's one reason I've tried to discuss around it, rather than be more direct. (also, that I have my own logs, so shouldn't be picking at someone else's splinter). But 2 things; you've said others have accused you of "not thinking much of the scriptures" - so I'd ask, why is that? Is it possibly because many times what God leads you to say may "push buttons", but ALSO, could be at least sometimes, that if you said something a little more carefully, it wouldn't APPEAR the way it's taken? It wouldn't SOUND that way? Secondly, perhaps my NOT being more direct and therefor clearer about this ("appear") has made it more confusing than it needed to be. I've also thought you really didn't HEAR some of what I've said and sort of just talked about what you THOUGHT I meant and then used it as a platform to just continue pursuing your own thoughts and ideas; sometimes even saying much "for clarification or education" that were not even addressing things I'd ACTUALLY SAID - but appeared to be what you'd THOUGHT I'd said or meant. Again, I think I know how you feel, but maybe everyone doesn't. Maybe I should have just said that to you in private in the first place - well, I think I did and have the copy of the PM to show it - but I could have done so more directly as in "I'm trying to help you brother". Instead, it's probably just appeared to be criticism and disagreement. :sigh:
I'm just sort of clearing the air here. You probably feel like I haven't heard you, and I feel like you (and a few others) haven't really heard me and have assumed I'm against things that are spiritual - even though I've tried repeatedly to clarify that. Unfortunately most of us, me included, often work off our assumptions and pre-conceived ideas, rather than off what people actually say.
I'd also suggest a heart check for us, me included, at this point. What are we really trying to accomplish here? Hopefully to love and prefer each other, seek to edify the body, and do the will of our Father. For me, I usually need to be aiming more for that.
I don't really need to say anything more about this. Again, you have much good to share, and whether you believe it or not, I'm very much mostly in agreement with you. I just hope you'll really hear what I'm really saying, what my intent is, and again, I'm sorry for even pointing this out or being judgmental to the point that this probably appears and probably is. I have many of my own issues I need to be more focused on. I believe we probably wouldn't have needed to get to this point if we'd both listened a little better and "let a little more go". :mblush:
Ah, communication. It's a wonderful thing - especially in black and white. :happy3:
God's blessings, mercy, and abundance to you and yours. James.
No bud, I do totally hear you and I really don't mind this one being an open conversation because as I think I've told you in either private or open, you're one of those people I've enjoyed the pleasure of being able to converse both sides of the coin with without the conversation becoming bitter and rude or offensive. Probably why you're a mod in the first place. Blessed are the peace makers . . .you have a gift with that one for sure.
And more to the point of discussion, I to have two things. One is . . .saying that you shouldn't base your belief on what you read in Scripture is actually what I meant. I didn't mean to say "solely" on Scripture. I "meant" I shouldn't base my belief on Scripture "at all". By the time I pick a Bible up, I should already have a belief . . .I guess this might be better if I took "belief" out and placed "relationship" in. My relationship isn't based on what I read. It's based on the Word written "in" me.
Now, "in" that relationship, beings the author of Scripture is living in me, then it would only stand to reason that my relationship with the Father would then lead me to read Scripture so that the spirit can breathe on what's written so then both the written word "and" the Spirit of God can nourish what's alive in me already. And there is a "reason" behind why I say that. It's not to dismiss Scripture. It's to avoid the pitfalls of deception from the mind of men. That's what this whole thing has been all about from the beginning. It's also why I tend to struggle from time to time on this subject in the avenue of a "forum". Because most people who are drawn to this particular venue are those that embrace knowledge of what Scripture states through which we get all involved in our debates and word definitions. So when I throw out the idea of what we're talking about, it creates waves by it's very nature alone.
What "is" the purpose behind pretty much anyone who posts or quotes a passage on the forum? Is it not to direct other people's attention at their vantage point of what they think? I don't know of "anyone" that purposefully posts stuff just to stir the bees nest and for no other reason. I'd like to think that when I post what I post, that it's for the same reasons. It's not to start arguments. On the other hand, the nature of my perception often will stir things up without really trying. It's like most everyone on this board who has embraced UR trying to then communicate to others without everything being tied to UR . . .very seldom can we ever walk away from any kind of indepth conversation about God with another person without at some point, having it go right into the depths of what UR is all about. It's the same with me and dimensions . .. everything is connected. you don't "mean" to come off argumentative, but because "that's" where God has you, everything you see is from "that" perspective.
I don't "mean" for it to sound like I'm dissing the Scripture, but I'm not looking to compromise it either. I really do believe that my relationship with God should be based on what his voice in me is saying, more than on what I think Scripture says. I really do believe that's a big reason why there are so many different beliefs about "one" God and so many different religions and denominations claiming "they" are the most accurate in their rendition of who God is. They are all basing their understanding according to what "they" think Scripture is saying.
Which brings me to point @2. And that is, what I say is from the perspective of what I see. Because others are not from the same perspective, they will likely see what I'm saying to be saying something completely different from what I intended. So . . . are you saying I should step away from what I see so that others can make sense of what I'm saying? That I shouldn't "go there" because too many will misunderstand? That I should align my perspectives with others who aren't willing to align theirs with mine?
I see it as an opportunity to "stretch" others even if it means it may create a bit of tension. It's a sign of growth. If you "stretch" my thinking, you expand my horizons of understanding. If you reject it, that's your decision. But it's all based on this whole topic. What is the source of my strength? The written Word that my mind filters through? Or the breathing Word "in" me? One leads to knowledge, the other leads beyond it.
I can't help repeating myself on that one . . .it's the most predominant part of me today.
No bud, I do totally hear you and I really don't mind this one being an open conversation because as I think I've told you in either private or open, you're one of those people I've enjoyed the pleasure of being able to converse both sides of the coin with without the conversation becoming bitter and rude or offensive. Probably why you're a mod in the first place. Blessed are the peace makers . . .you have a gift with that one for sure.
Not positive about that. Sometimes I know I'm a pain in the rear. But thanks :)
And more to the point of discussion, I to have two things. One is . . .saying that you shouldn't base your belief on what you read in Scripture is actually what I meant. I didn't mean to say "solely" on Scripture. I "meant" I shouldn't base my belief on Scripture "at all". By the time I pick a Bible up, I should already have a belief . . .I guess this might be better if I took "belief" out and placed "relationship" in. My relationship isn't based on what I read. It's based on the Word written "in" me.
2 more things lol. 1. never on what's written, at all? And 2 points about that; How did you come to know anything about God? Didn't it have to do with either someone reading scripture and repeating it to you, and/or you reading it yourself? And, what about this, just as written; "love your enemies"? The way I see it, I can base not only a doctrine on that, but what I believe on that, and even a way of life on that. Now, do I need the Holy Spirit to illuminate it for and in me? Absolutely! Do I need the Holy Spirit to teach me what that means, what it looks like, in what situations does it apply? Absolutely! Do I need the Holy Spirit to enable to me to do it, and to remind me when I'm not and when I need to? Absolutely!!! But can I base a belief on Jesus saying, in black/red and white, transcribed as written in letter, "love your enemies"? Absolutely! On the other hand, can I dismiss the Spirit and spiritual, only read the letters, and miss God? Well, if I didn't already know Him (by Him knowing me), yes. IMO, that's how they read the letters that "killed" them - because they missed Jesus, Who is the Essence of relationship. Which brings me to point 2. I personally see "belief" and "relationship" as 2 different things. Many people believe many things without relationship. IMO, it's the relationship and the Holy Spirit that flows through that, that teaches "true" beliefs. But again, the spoken/revealed Word doesn't go against or annul the written - IMO, they work together. And if the written isn't available to someone, God can still reveal Himself to their heart.
I believe you answered a similar query before with "we're now in the 7th day [so it no longer applies]", but I just don't agree with the totality of that reasoning. So I look at Paul saying that because the Bereans "searched the scriptures daily to see if those things were true" so therefore they were "more noble", as a good thing, not that they were somehow deficient.
Now, "in" that relationship, beings the author of Scripture is living in me, then it would only stand to reason that my relationship with the Father would then lead me to read Scripture so that the spirit can breathe on what's written so then both the written word "and" the Spirit of God can nourish what's alive in me already. And there is a "reason" behind why I say that. It's not to dismiss Scripture. It's to avoid the pitfalls of deception from the mind of men. That's what this whole thing has been all about from the beginning. It's also why I tend to struggle from time to time on this subject in the avenue of a "forum". Because most people who are drawn to this particular venue are those that embrace knowledge of what Scripture states through which we get all involved in our debates and word definitions. So when I throw out the idea of what we're talking about, it creates waves by it's very nature alone.
OK :)
I don't "mean" for it to sound like I'm dissing the Scripture
I personally do tons of things I don't mean to. Sometimes it's helpful for someone who's "on my side of things" and who's not just hostily trying to rip me to pieces, to gently help me see it, as it may not be something I want to continue doing, and can make some adjustment. Sometimes, I truly am persecuted for Christ's sake. Other times... :2c:
So . . . are you saying I should step away from what I see so that others can make sense of what I'm saying? That I shouldn't "go there" because too many will misunderstand? That I should align my perspectives with others who aren't willing to align theirs with mine?
Nope. See above.
I What is the source of my strength? The written Word that my mind filters through? Or the breathing Word "in" me? One leads to knowledge, the other leads beyond it.
I can't help repeating myself on that one . . .it's the most predominant part of me today.
From my perspective, those aren't mutually exclusive things, where one has to be made to appear somehow less than the other - or in extreme instances, even unecessary. I believe there's a balance, where "the whole counsel" of God, precept upon precept, is relevant. And the "written Word my mind filters through"? IMO, that doesn't have to be where it ends. First of all, we're to have the mind of Christ (surrendered to Him, seeking Him, looking to Him as the Author and Finisher). Secondly, if I'm praying about a scripture, asking for revelation/understanding, and looking to the Lord for guidance on it - opening myself to and listening to the Holy Spirit within my spirit to guide me on how that is to play out within me and in my interactions with others, that's something very different than "just my mind sifting through it". If we have the relationship, and the mind of Christ, then Godly knowledge is not a bad thing. It's when I approach it carnally, without that relationship, not seeking His revelation, not open to His guidance, not looking to HIM to fulfill it in me, that I get off track. I believe all those things can be submitted to the Lord. And then the Written becomes the Revealed.
There was a time when I was led by the doctrine of men. Then there came a time when I used natural logic to think for myself about the Scriptures. It led me to a place that made little sense and gave me little peace. But, these were necessary steps. They painted a background, tilled the soil and it is very apparent to me that it was needed for my growth. During this time, I was discouraged to listen to the inner light because if it disagreed with the doctrines of men then it couldn't possibly be right, and would put me in danger of hellfire. But, thankfully God has freed me of that. I am able to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit in me. And I accept what I hear as truth. This influences the way I see Scriptures. The Bible is very important to me. What is being birthed in me doesn't conflict with Scriptures, but it does change the way that I read them. It changes my understanding of them.
Quote from: shawn on October 19, 2011, 12:00:10 AM
There was a time when I was led by the doctrine of men. Then there came a time when I used natural logic to think for myself about the Scriptures. It led me to a place that made little sense and gave me little peace. But, these were necessary steps. They painted a background, tilled the soil and it is very apparent to me that it was needed for my growth. During this time, I was discouraged to listen to the inner light because if it disagreed with the doctrines of men then it couldn't possibly be right, and would put me in danger of hellfire. But, thankfully God has freed me of that. I am able to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit in me. And I accept what I hear as truth. This influences the way I see Scriptures. The Bible is very important to me. What is being birthed in me doesn't conflict with Scriptures, but it does change the way that I read them. It changes my understanding of them.
:thumbsup:
I thought I'd been very clear that I don't believe all we need is the written. But someone commented tonight in a PM something that caused me to think, well, maybe I've not always been clear enough. So let me be clear. I've never said all we need is the written, and that's not what I believe. I believe the written (when given), the spoken (when provided) and the revealed (when blessed) work together.
Blessings, James.
Quote from: jabcat on October 19, 2011, 07:40:17 AM
I thought I'd been very clear that I don't believe all we need is the written. But someone commented tonight in a PM something that caused me to think, well, maybe I've not always been clear enough. So let me be clear. I've never said all we need is the written, and that's not what I believe. I believe the written (when given), the spoken (when provided) and the revealed (when blessed) work together.
Isn't it the same story told in two different languages?
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2011, 03:03:43 AM
2 more things lol. 1. never on what's written, at all? And 2 points about that; How did you come to know anything about God? Didn't it have to do with either someone reading scripture and repeating it to you, and/or you reading it yourself? And, what about this, just as written; "love your enemies"? The way I see it, I can base not only a doctrine on that, but what I believe on that, and even a way of life on that. Now, do I need the Holy Spirit to illuminate it for and in me? Absolutely! Do I need the Holy Spirit to teach me what that means, what it looks like, in what situations does it apply? Absolutely! Do I need the Holy Spirit to enable to me to do it, and to remind me when I'm not and when I need to? Absolutely!!! But can I base a belief on Jesus saying, in black/red and white, transcribed as written in letter, "love your enemies"? Absolutely! On the other hand, can I dismiss the Spirit and spiritual, only read the letters, and miss God? Well, if I didn't already know Him (by Him knowing me), yes. IMO, that's how they read the letters that "killed" them - because they missed Jesus, Who is the Essence of relationship. Which brings me to point 2. I personally see "belief" and "relationship" as 2 different things. Many people believe many things without relationship. IMO, it's the relationship and the Holy Spirit that flows through that, that teaches "true" beliefs. But again, the spoken/revealed Word doesn't go against or annul the written - IMO, they work together. And if the written isn't available to someone, God can still reveal Himself to their heart.
Isn't the Bible the word of God. Isn't Jesus the Word.
For me it's simple:
The written is 100% the same* as the spiritual if not then one or more of the following applies:
a] The person doesn't understand what's written.
b] The spiritual stuff comes from the dark side.
c] The spiritual stuff are just voice is ones head. Contact a professional :-)
*=same quality, truthfulnes, etc
Is the Bible the Word of God . . .. in my opinion . . .no. It's inspired "from" God, it contains words "of" God, it's a tool used "by" God, it can lead one "to" God and most importantly for me . . .it affirms the Word of God.
But in and of itself, it's a book written by men who were transformed by God and yes, it's a book above all other books because of the potential power that can come from it. But my issue has never been about the continuity of the Bible. I use it ALL THE TIME. I have a dozen of them myself with different translations and study helps. But my stance has never been on questioning the validity of the Bible itself. It's always been about the order of perspective by the ones who read, embrace and enforce it. If we read it from knowledge, we pervert the spiritual power that it contains. If we read it spiritually, not only do we ourselves become empowered by it's message, but our knowledge is greatly enhanced as well.
Good thoughts Tony, thanks. I agree that the divinely spoken or revealed will NEVER contradict the written.
Nathan, I agree with this; "If we read it spiritually, not only do we ourselves become empowered by it's message, but our knowledge is greatly enhanced as well." We should do ALL things spiritually.
This is from a post in another thread. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/rob_bell_love_wins_9429.msg118150.html#msg118150
James:
I usually say "the scriptures" as well, mainly because I don't want this particular argument and people's varying opinions/understandings from detracting from the primary point I'm often trying to make at the time.
However, I believe the scribes and pharisees misused the written Word, and missed the Revealed Word - Jesus. They looked to and ONLY used the letter, and were not open to the Spirit and denied the Messiah. IMO, that's how they failed.
I believe there's misunderstanding on BOTH sides of this issue - those that deny the scriptures, and those that get so dogmatic they insist on things like KJV-salvation and any other translations are of the devil - and then many variations in-between.
This is from a previous post I've kept for these purposes. Hopefully it's helpful.
"My thoughts simply are, Jesus became the revealed Word in flesh, but His doing so did not negate the logos, which scripture states is forever settled in the heavens. In my understanding (and I've had some very intense dealings from God regarding His Word) there's the Word (thought/intent of God), the written Word, and Jesus the Word revealed and come in the flesh - not one or the other.
IMO, there can be a misunderstanding between the written Word, the spoken Word, and the fact that Jesus revealed the Word in flesh. As I've said, I don't believe one negates the other.
John 6:63 Jesus said ".....the Words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life".
John 1:1 Christ is the living Word of God.
I believe scripture (accurately translated, rightly divided, Spirit revealed - especially the originals) is the written Word of God, as evidenced by Jesus' statement Himself - John 14:23 JESUS (THE LIVING WORD) SAID, "if a man love me he will keep my Words". (The Word saying "keep my Word".)
Matthew 4:4 "It is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".
John 15:3 Again, JESUS (THE LIVING WORD) SAID, "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you". (See it again, the Word saying the Word?)
Logos: Unchanging self-existent Word of God
Psalms 119:89 "forever o Lord thy Word (logos) is settled in heaven".
Rhema: derived from the verb to speak. Romans 10:17 "so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".
Shortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired. God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word. Yes, Jesus is the Word -become flesh. But God also has written Word and spoken/revealed Word. They operate in tandem. They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.
I later inquired (again) of God about this topic. He immediately let me know He had already let me know. I went to the written Word. These scriptures are from perhaps the most literal English translation available, The Christian Bible (1991).
I John 2:7 The Law is called the Word that was heard
2:8 Then again, I am writing a new Word to you that is true in Him.
:14 I have written to you...and God's Word is staying in you
Mathew 13:18-22 Jesus talks about the Word about the Kingdom, in the parable of the sower - Vs. 22; "Now the one among the thorns into which the seed was planted, this is the person who hears the Word, but the concerns of this age and enticement or riches stifle the Word, and it beomes unfruitful.
Mt. 15:3 "Why do you step beyond the boundaries of God's Direction because of your tradition? ...now you have invalidated God's Word because or your tradition."
Notice the differences, [1] and [2];
Rev. 3:8 You have kept [1] my Word and you haven't disowned [2] my name ("Yesu")
John 1:14 The Word became flesh
John 8:31 Then [1] Yesu was saying..."if you stay in [2] My Word, you are truly my students"
37 "you are seeking to kill Me, for My Word has no room in you"
John 17:6,8 "I made [1] your Name apparent...they have kept [2] Your Word. Now they have come to know that everything that You have given to Me, is from You, because they have kept the Declarations that you gave me, I have given to them, and they accepted them, and truly knew that came out from You..."
Shawn:
Terrific post. I had never heard this point of view of the Word. And, I must be one of them "fatalistic" folk because I do believe the Bible to be 100% inspired. And while it's not all encompassing of my relationship with Christ, it's firmly founded within my walk. 2 Tim 3 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Doesn't seem like much wiggle room there...All Scripture is God-breathed. We see the Scriptures inspiration, and function. We don't worship the Bible but we do use it for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. We have confidence in the Bible because it is indeed all God-breathed.
sometimes....the 'word come in flesh' may appear to utter something against the written word. something unlawful even....such as....
when Jesus 'word come in flesh' told them they must eat my flesh and drink my blood' many quit him,at that comment.......I wondered why
He would seem to almost purposefully stumble many that followed Him. To say something directly contray to written scriptures
Oftentimes, I have prayed and asked Him concerning something....and go to the scriptures and open it to just the place that answers it.
Even a conversational quality may come from the written word....those words may speak directly to your heart and it is as if He is speaking to you.
t. The Holy spirit must lead,teach,declare reveal
and it is not limited by written word to do that.[the parables used to teach higher spiritual principles by the 'word come in flesh' for instance...was the spirit
in Christ teaching. Everyday things can be used to teach also. EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD...not just the written.
I have had a person speak to me and answer a question I had prayed about, they totally unaware,but my knowing.
I have written posts....and before anyone comment on it, be shown by the spirit what to reply. The spirit has had me speak a word to someone that I have no idea
what it meant...but that person that received it new exactly what it meant.
Sometimes the spirit takes you away you have not gone before[no written scripture to make you feel more 'comfortable?"
I have found the leading akin to this...sometimes writtenword,sometimes,visions,sometime dreams..sometimes direct utterances...by those seen andunseen.
He is called wonderful counselor,teacher....and He will use whatever means He see's fit to teach you what He wants you to understand. Just as His Father
who....spoke from a burning bush,spoke through an ass...made the sun stand still,spoke through the thunder.
what we need to consider........is don't limit Him in any way. Now, if I told you God spoke to me through my cat...what would your reaction be? :mshock:
But this is written in the 'word' for your benefit. A donkey spoke and rebuked Balaam!! all scripture is beneficial for teaching.....and what have you just learned
but that He is not limited in any shape or form
I agree sheila. :thumbsup: But if your cat told you it was now OK to commit adultery because you had passed into a new, higher spiritual plane in your life (against what's clearly written) I'd uh, suggest your cat was meowing out of the wrong side of its mouth. :wink:
LOL!!!!!!!rofl
I just used that as an example :icon_jokercolor: Love ya,Brother!!
But really,I've learned....'nothing is impossible with God" :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on October 19, 2011, 08:29:21 PM
However, I believe the scribes and pharisees misused the written Word, and missed the Revealed Word - Jesus. They looked to and ONLY used the letter, and were not open to the Spirit and denied the Messiah. IMO, that's how they failed.
Maybe it's not that black and white. Pot and kettle comes to mind to. I think it's a mix of things. Sure there were powerhungry leaders that ruled with the iron rod. But somehow I think lots of their mistakes were because they wanted to do good. It's clear Jews aren't allowed to work on Sabbath. So they are for example not allowed to carry heavy objects. Then the discussion starts.. what's work? What's heavy? What's not. I found the answer 2000 years later :winkgrin: Last week I've read a newsclipping of Jew that emptied all his pockets on Sabbath. In his mind even a lighter in his pocket means carrying. Means work. The man was no leader. So he wasn't forcing other to do the same. In his mind he does a good service to God. So perhaps the Pharisees did do similar things. Many good laws pushed to the extreme becomes what it was never meant to be.
Quoteand missed the Revealed Word - Jesus
They did. But at least they never believed God is Hitler on steriods. So they aren't the only ones that missed something. :mblush:
QuoteShortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired. God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word. Yes, Jesus is the Word -become flesh. But God also has written Word and spoken/revealed Word. They operate in tandem. They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.
I think that's very well said. I don't know when "at that time" was but I never found posts on this forum that said translation where not inspired. On the contrary many try to go closer to the truth by looking at Hebrew and Greek.
Quote from: sheila on October 19, 2011, 10:12:10 PM
sometimes....the 'word come in flesh' may appear to utter something against the written word. something unlawful even....such as....
Misunderstandings. That's different from contradictions. Can only written things be misunderstood? Are visions always crystal clear? (that last question isn't rethorical)
Quote from: CHB on October 16, 2011, 08:12:36 PM
Quote from: Nathan on October 13, 2011, 04:00:14 PM
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
What is the "bread alone"?
Maybe I am thinking in the physical flesh again but my understanding of this verse is.
Our bodies should not live by food alone, it also needs God's word to sustain it. I kind of think of it as growing up. Our bodies need food/bread to help us grow up to be healthy human beings and the word of God helps us to grow up to be spiritually minded. When I say spiritually minded I mean to, think on things that are good, (Phil. 4:8) and have the fruits of the Spirit.
CHB
:bigGrin:
WW, didn't the pharisees believe in ET?
Quote from: redhotmagma on October 20, 2011, 01:34:31 AM
WW, didn't the Pharisees believe in ET?
Not completly sure but my answer no. Neither did the Saduccees. They didn't even believe in afterlife. ET never was more that fraction of Jewish belief. (even today among)
AFAIK dusring Jesus' time the Saduccees where in charge of the Temple itself and the Pharisees all other religious tasks. A strange combination because they didn"t even agree when passover was and First Fruits was. :winkgrin:
/EDIT
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sadducees_pharisees_essenes.html
ww
re;are visions always understood? Coarse not! I think of Peter when at the translation...wanting to erect three tents. I am still waiting for understanding of what
some things given me will play out. It has been as long as 20+ years for some visions to come to clarity.
To me...the Highest fulfillment of the law in regard to the sabbath is this.......the removing of the 'burden' of sin off the people when you enter the Holy city.
Father as the provider for His children.....provides sustenance for physical body of man.....but also spiritual substenance for spiritual body. Jesus spoke of
the Father clothing the grass with flowers[glory] a temporal thing[makes me think of 'token' of Holy spirit given us while in this body] the flower a promise of
the fruitage to come.
CHB your post is truth...the LORD INCREASE THE BREADTH,HEIGTH AND WIDTH OF IT,IN YOU.
Quote from: sheila on October 20, 2011, 03:11:46 PM
ww
re;are visions always understood? Coarse not! .
I expected that answer and agree with it.
So visions aren't better/worse that written text.
Both can be corrupted (translation error/bias or imagination) Both can be (mis)understood.
The main advabtage of the written text is that everyone can read it. Visions are so personal it can't be proved you had them.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 03:40:53 PM
Visions are so personal it can't be proved you had them.
And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD,
I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw:
and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
no,you or I can't 'prove' them..but God will..in the fire...and eventually we will all know what was spoken of Him,and what was not.
Quote from: sheila on October 20, 2011, 03:58:49 PMno,you or I can't 'prove' them..but God will..in the fire...and eventually we will all know what was spoken of Him,and what was not.
I'm not denying that because I simply don't have that knowledge. I think it can be a great experience.
But here we are on a forum. The only thing we can discuss are written words. I can't discuss your vision because I simply can't discus unverified things.
I think that's the main problem with spiritual stuff. It can't be discussed so it doesn't really fit on a "written forum"
I know someone who had several visions. One (several actually) was that the person was easting in the kitchen and Paul (or Peter) joined and ate rice for hours. While doing so Paul constantly taught that person. It happend at least three times.
Well....
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2011, 05:22:00 PM
Quote from: sheila on October 20, 2011, 03:58:49 PMno,you or I can't 'prove' them..but God will..in the fire...and eventually we will all know what was spoken of Him,and what was not.
I'm not denying that because I simply don't have that knowledge. I think it can be a great experience.
But here we are on a forum. The only thing we can discuss are written words. I can't discuss your vision because I simply can't discus unverified things.
I think that's the main problem with spiritual stuff. It can't be discussed so it doesn't really fit on a "written forum"
I know someone who had several visions. One (several actually) was that the person was easting in the kitchen and Paul (or Peter) joined and ate rice for hours. While doing so Paul constantly taught that person. It happend at least three times.
Well....
Paul likes rice? I'll cook some up! :happygrin:
People who have had visions can compare with people who have had visions.
People who have not had visions can discern through the Spirit about someone else's vision.
I guess I missed the memo that because we're on a forum, we can only discuss written words. Perhaps the frustration in sharing revelation with another is not that the other can't receive it, but because it was a personal revelation to an individual, the frustration comes when others can't pick it apart and judge whether it's right or wrong.
But again . . .what is the foundation that Jesus was building his church on if it was not on the principle of God unveiling the nature of Jesus to us on a personal level rather than on a script? It's based on relationship . . .knowledge only takes us so far, but it can't become infinite to us because the capacity we have in gathering, containing and retaining knowledge is not infinite. God is not finite. There are no boundaries to his nature and truths. His depths go beyond natural comprehension. His illuminations go higher than our capabilities can follow.
Rather than toss that all aside because this is a forum of the writings of others, why can't we instead at least include the greater possibilities that God's reality may very well reach "beyond" our understanding of his nature according to our comprehension of the written Word? The written word isn't the "final" say . . .it's a sign post full of signs that point to the final say. . .which is Christ himself. Jesus even said this to others who embraced what was written over what was living in front of them . . ."you search the scriptures because in them YOU THINK . . .
John 5
37 And the Father who sent me has testified about me himself. You have never heard his voice or seen him face to face, 38 and you do not have his message in your hearts, because you do not believe me—the one he sent to you.
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.
41 "Your approval means nothing to me, 42 because I know you don't have God's love within you. 43 For I have come to you in my Father's name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them. 44 No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God.
Which was Jesus more concerned about? The tangible or the spiritual aspects of our lives? Yes, he's concerned about both, but which one carries the most emphasis with Him?
and in the last days,I will pour out my spirit on all flesh [Acts 2;17] your sons and daughters will prophesy,your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants,both men and women,I will pour out my spirit in those days,and they will prophesy.
I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth belwo,blood and fire and billows of smoke.
the 'all' flesh includes you. Your times a coming :grin:.
Blessed art thou,Peter,for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you,but the Father in heaven.
Now, as far as I can see,ww. a man's offering is merited on what he has,not on what he does not have.
Now, the body is not made up of one part but many...no-one can say..because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body. The eye cannot
say to the hand,I don't need you. If one part suffers then every part suffers with it.
We all need each other.
Quote from: Nathan on October 20, 2011, 05:43:58 PMPerhaps the frustration in sharing revelation with another is not that the other can't receive it, but because it was a personal revelation to an individual, the frustration comes when others can't pick it apart and judge whether it's right or wrong.
Or people want to check if it's not a meth induced vision. The persons track record is also of importance. For me those things are of great importance.
QuoteBut again . . .what is the foundation that Jesus was building his church on if it was not on the principle of God unveiling the nature of Jesus to us on a personal level rather than on a script? It's based on relationship . . .knowledge only takes us so far
You really should pick up a decent dictionary and look up the meaning of "revealing". And then tell me if it means beyond what's already written.
QuoteRather than toss that all aside because this is a forum of the writings of others, why can't we instead at least include the greater possibilities that God's reality may very well reach "beyond" our understanding of his nature according to our comprehension of the written Word?
A forum should be courtesy based. Speaking from a high horse to lowly carnal word-meaning-studiers with words that can't be backed up causes the soil to get hard as rock instead of fertile.
QuoteThe written word isn't the "final" say . . .it's a sign post full of signs that point to the final say. . .which is Christ himself. Jesus even said this to others who embraced what was written over what was living in front of them . . ."you search the scriptures because in them YOU THINK . .
That seems to include you because you want that verse to support your view. And it won't come as a suprise my view is the opposite.
QuoteWhich was Jesus more concerned about? The tangible or the spiritual aspects of our lives? Yes, he's concerned about both, but which one carries the most emphasis with Him?
That's off-topic.
It's all so easy.
Compare the Bible to a senior year university textbook. Math for example. Give it to a 3 year old and ask that child to study it. It's all veiled to the child. However through the years the child gets thaught in school by teachers (Jesus) bit by bit the veils drop. 18 years later the child understands everything written in that math book. Was the book rewritten? No. Did the teachers add knowledge to the book? No. Did the child progress due to self study and help from the teacher? Yes.
The teachers simply revealed knowledge that was written in that math book even before the child was born.
Alas, we've once again arrived at the same chasm as before. Everything you've just said only solidifies my responses. You're at the point now where you're comparing the Scripture to a math book??? And "I'm" the one people think is discrediting the Bible? A math book was never intended to have SPIRITUAL MEANING beneath what's literally written.
Everything I've stated about the importance of Scripture, the order in which it's to be read, the context from which it was written in . . .ALL of what I've shared is not based on knowledge . . .it's based on my relationship. Which is WHY I say that the very cornerstone Jesus was using as the foundation of his church is based on relationship with Jesus . .which again, "you', by your own words have claimed "not" to have. So how is it that you continue to question the validity of things said by those that do have a relationship, while you yourself do not?
When Peter received his first revelation from God, Jesus immediately pointed out the fact that it does not come by way of flesh and blood. In other words . .. SPIRITUAL truth that is REVEALED inwardly does NOT come through the same means as one who is reading a math book. We're to walk in the SPIRIT . . .we're NOT to rely on our own understanding. We're to fill our minds with HEAVENLY thoughts. Definitions and literal facts all have their place, but as I already stated, there are limitations as to how far facts and definitions will take us. When Scripture talks about the deep calling to the deep, it's not saying that we should all go to the library and submerge ourselves in commentaries and writings of others. Scripture also speaks about how it's a SPIRIT TO SPIRIT avenue of communication between us and God.
In your eyes, spiritual truth can only come by way of the process of time one spends maturing in knowledge and understanding on Biblical matters. But tell that to "Paul". One minute he was bent on imprisoning and killing people who didn't see God the same way he did . . .the next minute he was on his back, blind and completely stripped of everything he'd thought he was up to that point. He spent three days blind before he was led to a SPIRITUAL man that took him under his wing. The turn around was so quick that it actually was an obstacle in his ability to evangelize. The people thought it was all a trick because THE LAST THEY KNEW, he was trying to kill them, and now he was trying to save them? Did all of that come through the process of time? Like a child growing into a math book?
My last question on my last post . . .your response really made me laugh . . .I asked "Which was Jesus more concerned about, spiritual or tangible?" And "your" response was my question was OFF TOPIC???? Seriously??? Do you realize that THIS thread was STARTED BY ME??? Bread alone . . .man can't live on bread alone . . .but on every word that "proceedeth" from God . . . how is my question anything BUT an extension of the original post???
The "only" part of your entire response that I can find any real truth to is the fact that it's no surprise that your view is the opposite. And based on the fact that you think spiritual growth is the same as learning math, it's no surprise at all that your view is gonna be the opposite. The real question is, can we both get along on the same forum?
I liked your analogy about maturing into understanding the book. I have another that I almost posted farther back in the thread.
One room school-house..with grades K-6..kindergardners and 1st,2nd graders learn abc's and numbers...add subtract etc.
3 rd graders start in with formulas...3/4=6/x......k-2 er's say,hey...you can't do that....a letter has no place in numbers..your mixing letter's with numbers!.
then you have the 6th graders doing,amps,to volts to currents and all their conversion formula's.
Now, the Teacher says to the older ones,lay off telling the little ones 1+1 doesn't = 2, and that q doesn't follow p
and little children.. don't tell the other's P=E2/R, P=I2+ R,or P=E+I is wrong.
water seeks it's own level. We will all be drawn to what we understand,to those who 'get' us..those that help us reach up. We have to spread out
in our affection.
Now the written word can be misunderstood as well as visions,dreams,utterances....it IS something we all have in common.For whatever 'stage' of spiritual
growth we're in there are snares,traps a plenty for us all. There are 'babes' young men and old men in the church.
Wisdom=knowledge applied with Love
Love you all, each one is precious in the Lord
Sheila, I can see the analogy being likened to one's "relationship" with God in that we're all on different levels in our walk which of course, my level of maturity in Christ does definitely affect my depth in understanding Scriptures. But what "is" spiritual maturity? The reason why I adamantly disagree with comparing the Bible with the same context as a math class is because you're eliminating the majority of people who don't attend the class.
The principle is then saying only those with the ability to dig, study and define Scriptures can become spiritually mature. And I again, adamantly disagree. That's why I used Paul's experience as an example. But Peter fits that just as easily. He was NOT deeply immersed in Biblical theology. Jesus didn't pick them because he saw their potential to be great scholars of the word. Peter didn't receive the revelation of who Jesus was because he was mature enough to finally handle it. If that were the case, then the event immediately following the revelation would not have led to Peter being rebuked and called "satan". It wasn't/isn't about progressively maturing to where we can finally understand Scripture.
Discernment is a gift of the spirit, not a level of maturity obtained by only those that have accumulated the knowledge. Revelation is the highway through which God communicates. Why settle for going through the "natural process" of thinking when it seriously doesn't lead into maturity, spiritual truth or even freedom?
Give this a thought . . . take any individual who has excelled in obtaining knowledge about "things". So much so that it's become their vocation, their passion, their identity. They've become so renown at it that high-end colleges pay them millions to teach others what they accumulated. And then . . . tell them that spiritual truth doesn't come by way of flesh and blood .. . by this point, they've "grown" so deeply in their own efforts that there's no way they would even consider laying down their will and accept truth by revelation. Their mind has become so embedded in "knowledge" that embracing the kingdom of the Spirit isn't even imaginable.
Even Paul stated "when I was a child, I spoke and acted as a child . . ." Was Paul referring to when he was a literal kid? Or when he was a spiritual infant? In this case, both fits, but again, what would be the "emphasis" he's aiming at here? When he was a literal kid? That people should now act their age? Or was he speaking about spiritual maturity . . .that when people are spiritual infants they act immature spiritually. So, if he's speaking spiritually, then what is considered mature? Embracing what's literally written over what's spiritually discerned? or the other way around?
And let's say it "is" the other way around. That walking in the spirit is an experience for more spiritually mature people to pursue . . .if that's the case, then why is there such a battle on this subject at all? Unless it's believed that embracing the literal is more mature than embracing the spiritual. What is it that Paul laid down when he became a man? Have "we" been willing to lay any of "our" stuff down?
This has been a sore spot with some ever since I've been on Tent. The idea that I continue to revert to the "spiritual" part of Scripture rather than stay with the literal aspects frustrates some and even though I push back, I'm not trying to condemn or degrade others by stating that they're making stuff up about Scripture only so that they can continue to believe whatever they want regardless of what the Bible says. Nor do I falsely accuse them of speaking from a "high horse" to carnal word-meaning-studiers . . .
For me, I've not changed my story since day on on coming to Tent. I think spiritual maturity is not in embracing natural reasoning. I think it's just the opposite. I think spiritual maturity takes place when we let go of our natural means of attempting to comprehend spiritual truth. Freedom is not in knowledge, it's in Christ who is "spirit" and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty! So why then do I continually get rebuked for trying to embrace that?
Oh, back to the progressional math thing . . ."if" that were truly the case, then why the stinging remarks at all? Since when would a senior rebuke a 7th grader for being a 7th grader? If this is really about 'growing" into higher levels of understanding the Bible, why am I being rebuked for being where I am?
It really does boil down to understanding which is more important . . .which is of better benefits . . .which carries the greater power, the natural or the spiritual? If I am spiritually immature, then should I desire to become more knowledgeable? Should I embrace the literal so that I can become more mature in the spiritual? Is that what this is all about?
QuoteWisdom=knowledge applied[ LIVED] with Love :HeartThrob:
in A nutshell~ :icon_flower:
Hi Nathan,
Didn't Jesus teach from the scriptures (Luke 4:16)? Many times Jesus said "IT IS WRITTEN". What was he referring to except the written word? Paul said, "STUDY to show thyself approved UNTO GOD a workman that needs not be ashamed rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH". If the Bible wasn't to be used or isn't what we should live by, then why did all of the apostles write the epistles? What was the need for them to write if we have no need of them? What was the point?
You said " Jesus didn't pick them because he saw their potential to be great scholars of the word". I don't think any one has implied that this was the case. Jesus did teach them because they didn't have the New Testament as we do. The apostles wrote the epistles for our admonition. I don't think we can understand the scriptures without being spiritual minded but God has to give us that gift. I think we need both the spirituality and the written word, what would be the good of one without the other? I don't think the two should be separated.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on October 21, 2011, 12:50:49 AM
Hi Nathan,
Didn't Jesus teach from the scriptures (Luke 4:16)? Many times Jesus said "IT IS WRITTEN". What was he referring to except the written word? Paul said, "STUDY to show thyself approved UNTO GOD a workman that needs not be ashamed rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH". If the Bible wasn't to be used or isn't what we should live by, then why did all of the apostles write the epistles? What was the need for them to write if we have no need of them? What was the point?
You said " Jesus didn't pick them because he saw their potential to be great scholars of the word". I don't think any one has implied that this was the case. Jesus did teach them because they didn't have the New Testament as we do. The apostles wrote the epistles for our admonition. I don't think we can understand the scriptures without being spiritual minded but God has to give us that gift. I think we need both the spirituality and the written word, what would be the good of one without the other? I don't think the two should be separated.
CHB
I'm not saying, nor have ever said that we're to not read or study Scripture. It's not about whether or not we should read it or study it . . .it's "how" we're to read and study it. For me, natural "leads" to the spiritual. Which is to say the word definitions and commentaries are not the final answer, but are merely tools that we can use to lead us up to where the answer lies. But it's up to us to lay down what's natural and pursue what's spiritual.
Everything Jesus was tempted with was natural, Everything Jesus came back with was spiritual. He used Scripture, yes, but the power being exercised with it was not by natural implication or interpretations, but through spiritual . . . .it's not by "might", nor by "power" but . . .BY THE SPIRIT . . .everything is spiritual.
As to no one implying that you have to potentially be a great scholar . . to me, that's what the math analogy was implying . . .you have to go through the ranks of maturity before you can reach a level of understanding what Scripture is saying. Revelation comes to the immature just as easily as it comes to the mature, in fact, it's probably easier for the immature because they've not convinced themselves that knowledge is as authoritive as spiritual. Remember, kingdom principles are backwards to natural logic. From the mouths of babes . . . if being too spiritual is infantile to most others, then let me have me rubber ducky. In that principle, babes aren't on milk for very long before their pressing in to the meatier things of God.
Once again, this isn't about disregarding Scripture and embracing only the voice within. This whole thing has been about the "starting point". Rather than build my belief according to what my mind has interpreted, I've said and am still saying, my belief should first be based on the Word "in" me. THEN AS I READ THE SCRIPTURE from that vantage point, it won't be based on natural reasoning . . .it won't be based on what I think Scripture is saying. Nor will it be changed because Scripture "appears" to contradict it's core message. When I do get involved in word definitions, they won't set the standard, they'll merely fit the framework already in place.
Just like your quote about studying to show yourself approved . . . it's assumed that this is a challenge to read the Bible because that's what God is demanding . . .but read that again .. . the studying of Scripture is not to build your belief, it's to reveal to your SELF that you ARE approved unto God. The studying isn't so that you'll learn more about God . . .all though, again, the Spirit will lead us into reading Scriptures and studying them, but the point in this particular passage is that it's saying AS you study the Scriptures, you will see that you've already been approved . . .puts a whole different spin on why I read Scripture. It's not just to gather information about God, it's also to see that I've already been aproved of God whether I know it, read it, study it, understand it . . .or not.
The written Bear Testimony to HIM, , even so, theres No life in the Black and White Charlotte ~LIVING [ life within] IS the reality,if you wish to sum this all Up in One sentance, the whole Book speaks of Coming to KNOW HIM, Christ In US our HOPE of Glory~ In truth Nothing else Matters~ , summerised THE renewed SOUL~And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
:icon_flower:
The written Bear Testimony to HIM . . .
Egg-zackly!!
Great to see you moving around on the boards again bro!!!
Yes.
I don't see that a printed copy of the Bible has any mystical or magical power of its own.
People have defaced and destroyed many copies of the Scriptures throughout the centuries
without a lightning bolt striking them dead in their tracks.
It is the Spirit Who teaches from the pages of the Book.
But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to consult with those who were apostles before I was. Instead, I went away into Arabia, and later I returned to the city of Damascus. [Gal 1]
Paul says he went off by himself upon receiving the revelation of Christ, and did not confer with men.
But, Paul was one who knew the Old Testament scriptures by heart, and had studied under the greatest rabbi in Jerusalem, Gameliel.
So in Paul we see both the written and revealed working hand in hand. He could now understand the language of Christ against the backdrop of the Old Testament. That's the ideal, I think. But, it is not something that happens overnight.
We need to be more patient with ourselves and each other. God knows what he's doing in the lives of his servants. He will eventually bring each of us to the same place, even though the road might look different.
Quote from: Molly on October 21, 2011, 03:24:32 AM
So in Paul we see both the written and revealed working hand in hand. He could now understand the language of Christ against the backdrop of the Old Testament. That's the ideal, I think. But, it is not something that happens overnight.
We need to be more patient with ourselves and each other. God knows what he's doing in the lives of his servants. He will eventually bring each of us to the same place, even though the road might look different.
Fantastic post, Molly. Amen.
Matthew 13:31
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Matthew 13:45
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Matthew 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Matthew 20:1
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
Matthew 22:2
The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Jesus' focus was to move "from" tangible to spiritual. Putting New Wine into Old Wineskins was a prime example. Another was using new fabric as a patch for old garments. The Old wineskin bursts and the old fabric tears. Something's gotta give. The thing about the living, breathing nature of the spirit is, it is continually moving, expanding, elevating . . .but traditional thinking embraces that which remains the same. And to Molly's point about Paul, he definitely had a 'GREAT' advantage over most "because of" his theological background. And Jesus also pointed to this advantage in the middle of these "the kingdom is like . . ." settings.
Matt. 13
51Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Paul was raised in the knowledge but he understood the placement of that knowledge was not to be ahead of spiritual, but "under" it. Because in his own words, he sees those man-made credentials as a pile of crap. Yes?
Philippians 3
3 For we who worship by the Spirit of God are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort, 4 though I could have confidence in my own effort if anyone could. Indeed, if others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more!
5 I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. 6 I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.
7 I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. 8 Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ 9 and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ.[c] For God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith.
The emphasis Paul placed on his relationship with God, not only was he "not" basing it on all the knowledge he'd obtained, but he went so far as to say that he let go of everything he "thought" he already knew. This has been what I've been trying to say all along about natural reasoning being laid aside for spiritual revelation. It's based on FAITH . . .seeing what can't TANGIBLY be seen. Basing my belief on what is written is not basing it on the unseen. What is written is what is seen. But building my foundation in Christ based on the Word "in" me is what faith "is". Because Paul laid down his knowledge of God, he was able to become the greatest and most powerful tool used by God.
The trials didn't really manifest in his life until he took that which he received spiritually and tried to birth that into others who were still in the grips of man-made mindsets. Those that embraced what he considered as dung took offense to his change of direction and set out to kill him as a result. He knew the same Scriptures they knew, but he had a completely different message than they did. Why? Was it because he embraced the literal Scriptures? Or the spiritual message they contained? He "had" both, but one was put under submission to the other. Yes??
Quote from: Nathan on October 20, 2011, 09:48:42 PMAlas, we've once again arrived at the same chasm as before. Everything you've just said only solidifies my responses.
Hopefully not for people who actually read what I wrote.
QuoteYou're at the point now where you're comparing the Scripture to a math book???
No. I'm was giving an example.
QuoteAnd "I'm" the one people think is discrediting the Bible?
Can't speak for others but my answer is yes.
QuoteA math book was never intended to have SPIRITUAL MEANING beneath what's literally written.
Did I claim a math book is sipritual?
QuoteEverything I've stated about the importance of Scripture, the order in which it's to be read, the context from which it was written in . . .ALL of what I've shared is not based on knowledge . . .it's based on my relationship.
Your point is?
Quote from: CHB
I think we need both the spirituality and the written word, what would be the good of one without the other? I don't think the two should, be separated.
There was no man as spiritual as Jesus Christ, he was the Son of God but he still used the physical to explain things. It is true that Jesus focus was to move "from" tangible to spiritual" but what was the move from? The laws of Moses, which was physical, to the New Covenant, which was also partly physical . I think this move is a progressive thing as well. This physical will eventually be changed completely over to spiritual. Mind you, I said "eventually". I don't think we are completely at that point yet. Reading Nathans posts, they seem to imply that we are already in a spiritual state and there is no need for the physical. Maybe I am understanding them wrong? :dontknow:
As I said above, "I don't think the physical CAN be seperated from the spiritual as long as we are in the physical. I think the fact that Jesus who was the most spiritual person who ever lived, used the physical to explain things shows that. I am not saying that the WRITTEN WORD should be first but I don't see how we can have spiritual without physical as long as we are physical. I think we are moving from the physical to the spiritual but it is a progress that hasn't been completed yet.
CHB
Quote from: Nathan on October 21, 2011, 12:00:31 AM
Sheila, I can see the analogy being likened to one's "relationship" with God in that we're all on different levels in our walk which of course, my level of maturity in Christ does definitely affect my depth in understanding Scriptures. But what "is" spiritual maturity? The reason why I adamantly disagree with comparing the Bible with the same context as a math class is because you're eliminating the majority of people who don't attend the class.
Your argument is very flawed on several points.
a] People who attend to class have no guarantee they will undertand. Not everyone has a masters in math.
b] My example wasn't as bad as you hope it is. Students can do self study. But it's often the teacher that makes the difference. When discussing with a more relaxed person I would explan how the teacher compare to HS, without claiming a math teacher is divine.
c] My example wasn't about the only way of learning but about the teacher revealing what was unclear (by study)
Pardes (Jewish exegesis)From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
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Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or - simpler - interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:
Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning[1].
Remez (רֶמֶז) — "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.
Each type of Pardes interpretation examines the extended meaning of a text. As a general rule, the extended meaning never contradicts the base meaning. The Peshat means the plain or contextual meaning of the text. Remez is the allegorical meaning. Derash includes the metaphorical meaning, and Sod represents the hidden meaning. There is often considerable overlap, for example when legal understandings of a verse are influenced by mystical interpretations or when a "hint" is determined by comparing a word with other instances of the same word.
Some thinkers, such as the Tolaat Yaakov, divide Pardes into Peshat, Remez, Din (law), and Sod. According to this understanding, Derash is divided into the homiletics, which are classified under Remez, and legal interpretations, which are classified under Din.
The Pardes typology is quite similar to the contemporary Christian fourfold allegorical scheme.
Contents
1 Examples
1.1 Pshat
1.2 Remez
1.3 Derash (Midrash)
1.4 Sod
2 Association with paradise
3 References
4 See also
5 External links
5.1 Jewish Encyclopedia links
5.2 Other links
[edit] Examples[edit] Pshat{Gen. 1,2) And the earth was empty (tohu) and formless (vohu).
Rashi - The Hebrew word 'tohu' means astonishment in English and the word 'bohu' means emptiness and next to emptiness. Thus the phrase is 'amazement and desolation'. This means that a person would be amazed and astonished at anything that was there.
[edit] Remez(gemara makkos 2b) Q. A hint that the law of conspiring witnesses is in the Torah, where is it?
A. There is no such hint, because it is stated explicitly (Deut 19,19) You do to them what they conspired to do to the accused.
Q. But a hint that conspiring witnesses receive a whipping [if they cannot be punished by doing to them as they conspired] according to the Torah, where is it?
A. As it says (Deut 25,1-2) They caused the righteous to be righteous and the evil to be evil. And therefore the evil get whipped.
Q. Because they caused the righteous to be righteous and the evil to be evil. And therefore the evil get whipped?
A. But there must have been witnesses who testified that the righteous were evil. And other witnesses came and caused the righteous to be known as righteous as they were before, and caused the previous witnesses to be known as evil. And therefore the evil get whipped.
[edit] Derash (Midrash)(gemara makkos 23b) Rabbi Simlai deduced that there were 613 mitzvot taught to Moses at Mount Sinai. The verse says that (Deut 33,4) Torah was given to us through Moses at Sinai. The gematria of Torah is 611. And one should add to them the first two of the Ten Commandments that were given directly by God to the Jews [this is known because they are written in the first person singular], making the total 613.
[edit] Sod(Guide for the Perplexed book2 section 30) "Adam and Eve were at first created as one being, having their backs united: they were then separated, and one half was removed and brought before Adam as Eve." . Note how clearly it has been stated that Adam and Eve were two in some respects, and yet they remained one, according to the words," Bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh" (Gen. ii. 23). The unity of the two is proved by the fact that both have the same name, for she is called ishah (woman), because she was taken out of ish (man), also by the words," And shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh" (ii. 24). How great is the ignorance of those who do not see that all this necessarily includes some [other] idea [besides the literal meaning of the words].
Quote from: Nathan on October 21, 2011, 04:50:02 PM
Matt. 13
51Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Paul was raised in the knowledge but he understood the placement of that knowledge was not to be ahead of spiritual, but "under" it. Because in his own words, he sees those man-made credentials as a pile of crap. Yes?
That's besides the point. The Bible isn't manmade credentials. The only credential in theologians have is claiming they understand the Bible.
The Scribes where constantly following Jesus and waiting for a good moment to ask a question that would expose Jesus as a fraud. Jesus didn't answer with things like "I had a vision".
No He answered with verses the Scribes knew and agreed with.
Jesus and the Scribes both had the OT memorized (I assume). But only Jesus could really connect the dots.
So Paul wasn't suggesting to throw the OT on that pile of crap. He admitted that his way of connecting the dots was totally flawed.
So Jesus could always backup His teachings with Scripture.
Jesus was a Rabbi. A teacher. The Scribes saw themselfs as teaches of the highest level. But when confronting Jesus they always had to admit defeat. The Book was the same. But the level of education of the teachers wasn't.
typology and symbolism , shadows tyoes and patterns relay the hidden not seen by the Eye, Unles of course its Revealed#Paul the greatest Mystic of ALL.
Having spent some time with two Hebrew scholars, coming to understand the symbolic 22 letters of The hebrew alpabhet . we come to learn words Like DA-V ID~
This truth of Agape is encapsulated in Name "David" ="Daleth Vau Daleth". This name contains the two gates(Daleth) the Father and the Son and the Vau is the Hook (You are the hook, the joint that reveals both the Father and the Son AS ONE )
Blessed are they who see the deeper meanings Guys,No biggy, but geesh~ is all this wrangling still going on?~can we not share what we see and let other BE~
Im still a Mod here Until someone tells me differently~AFTER 5mths maybe it time to JUST quit it~and MOVE ON~ :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on October 21, 2011, 12:40:36 AM
QuoteWisdom=knowledge applied[ LIVED] with Love :HeartThrob:
in A nutshell~ :icon_flower:
You didn't rightly divide that. There's a space between the s and h :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 21, 2011, 06:16:33 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 21, 2011, 12:40:36 AM
QuoteWisdom=knowledge applied[ LIVED] with Love :HeartThrob:
in A nutshell~ :icon_flower:
You didn't rightly divide that. There's a space between the s and h :icon_jokercolor:
:laughing7:
Spelling, Grammer and more so typing is a Curse for me being Dyslexic WW, :HeartThrob:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 21, 2011, 05:34:50 PM
Quote from: Nathan on October 20, 2011, 09:48:42 PMAlas, we've once again arrived at the same chasm as before. Everything you've just said only solidifies my responses.
Hopefully not for people who actually read what I wrote.
QuoteYou're at the point now where you're comparing the Scripture to a math book???
No. I'm was giving an example.
QuoteAnd "I'm" the one people think is discrediting the Bible?
Can't speak for others but my answer is yes.
QuoteA math book was never intended to have SPIRITUAL MEANING beneath what's literally written.
Did I claim a math book is sipritual?
QuoteEverything I've stated about the importance of Scripture, the order in which it's to be read, the context from which it was written in . . .ALL of what I've shared is not based on knowledge . . .it's based on my relationship.
Your point is?
Good Grief WW . . . you aren't listening at all. I didn't say "you" claimed a math book was spiritual, I'm saying the fact that your "example" of a math book CAN'T fit with reading the Bible because a math book ISN'T spiritual. And my point to the last part was, "you" personally claim you're an atheist . . which is to say that there is no relationship between you and God and yet you are belligerent towards me because you can't understand what I'm trying to say because faith is actually based on one's relationship with God. If you don't have a relationship, then you can't very well have the rest either. So it's not surprising you have no idea what I'm trying to say, it's just intriguing that even though you "don't" have any relationship with God personally, you confront me argumentatively as though you do.
You've also said that you read the Bible always looking for spiritual patterns . . . when Jesus rebukes Peter for taking a swing at the high priests servant and tells him to put his sword away . . .what spiritual patter does that speak of to you?
Quote from: CHB on October 21, 2011, 05:36:18 PM
Quote from: CHB
I think we need both the spirituality and the written word, what would be the good of one without the other? I don't think the two should, be separated.
There was no man as spiritual as Jesus Christ, he was the Son of God but he still used the physical to explain things. It is true that Jesus focus was to move "from" tangible to spiritual" but what was the move from? The laws of Moses, which was physical, to the New Covenant, which was also partly physical . I think this move is a progressive thing as well. This physical will eventually be changed completely over to spiritual. Mind you, I said "eventually". I don't think we are completely at that point yet. Reading Nathans posts, they seem to imply that we are already in a spiritual state and there is no need for the physical. Maybe I am understanding them wrong? :dontknow:
As I said above, "I don't think the physical CAN be seperated from the spiritual as long as we are in the physical. I think the fact that Jesus who was the most spiritual person who ever lived, used the physical to explain things shows that. I am not saying that the WRITTEN WORD should be first but I don't see how we can have spiritual without physical as long as we are physical. I think we are moving from the physical to the spiritual but it is a progress that hasn't been completed yet.
CHB
Again . . . I've never stated to throw out the Bible.
Ya know what the biggest "reflex" is to someone who is told that when all things are complete, all men are going to end up at the same place . . .that there's no eternal hell. Ya know what they say to that just on reflex alone? "Well, then why bother even "trying" to be a Christian if sinners can do whatever they want and still go to heaven?" They quickly put a bit of a twist in what you just stated about all ending up in the same place. They completely by-passed the point about experiencing the consequences for making bad choices. You didn't actually "say" that you can live like hell and still go to heaven, but FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE that's how they took it.
I'm finding the same thing happening here with all of this. I've never said the Bible isn't important. I've never said it's not necessary to read or study. I've never said it's inaccurate or irrelevant. Yet through the responses I'm getting on this, that is still the implication. Yes, we are natural beings that have the ability to be both spiritual and physical. Yes, Jesus used the natural things to reveal Spiritual truth. Yes, Jesus often quoted Scripture to those who were around him. I'm not denying any of that. But I'm not backing down from my position either. Because I truly believe EVERYTHING is based on spiritual truth FIRST. We can't take natural control of our natural lives unless we first have the spiritual authority and spiritual power to do so.
We are instructed NOT to lean on our own understanding . . .anybody want to argue that one?
We are called to walk in the SPIRIT and not in the flesh. We are told the letter of the law kills but the SPIRIT brings forth life. We are told that Jesus IS THAT SPIRIT and where the SPIRIT of the Lord is, there is liberty. The entire experience with God is a spiritual one, our physical reactions to that spiritual experience are merely natural manifestations on the outside that are the result from a SPIRITUAL transformation that is taking place ON THE INSIDE. The sole reason why I like knowing the definitions to words is not so that I can know what was literally being said, but so that I can see how that person, city, object . . .how the character in the story meshes in with the message the story is bringing.
"Noah" literally means "rest". Pitch, which is tar . . .it's what Noah applied to the ark "within and without" literally means "atonement". It's what seals the boat to keep it from sinking, to keep it "on top of" the waters around it. Ararat means "the curse is reversed" . . .everything has a deeper meaning that just the story itself. So for pity sake, why would I claim the Bible isn't important if "it's" the resource of the spiritual patterns that feed our spirit in the first place? My message isn't to throw the Bible away, my message is to be aware that there's so much more to it than what lies on the surface. There are many "dimensions" to it. It's a book of signs, symbols and timetables. The rightly dividing is not me interpreting it correctly, but it's acknowledging where natural stops and spiritual starts.
It's God's word "in me" that does the rightly dividing . . .
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the
dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
How can the SPIRIT rightly divide what's written if we aren't willing to let the natural reasoning in us to come under submission to spiritual understanding?
To be totally honest, I personally think that may be the underlying reasoning for all of the emotion that this thread is stirring up. I'm openly coming against relying on mental interpretations of spiritual truths and it's creating all kinds of reactions.
How do we let the spirit rightly divide instead of our mind? What exactly does it mean? I pray for God to speak to me, to lead me, to open my eyes to His Word, I don't hear a voice from heaven (well once or twice) How do we put on the mind of Christ? What is the difference between natural reasoning and spiritual reasoning?
I'm not being snarky here either. I want deep, I want more.
Quote from: Taffy on October 21, 2011, 06:15:48 PM
typology and symbolism , shadows tyoes and patterns relay the hidden not seen by the Eye, Unles of course its Revealed#Paul the greatest Mystic of ALL.
Having spent some time with two Hebrew scholars, coming to understand the symbolic 22 letters of The hebrew alpabhet . we come to learn words Like DA-V ID~
This truth of Agape is encapsulated in Name "David" ="Daleth Vau Daleth". This name contains the two gates(Daleth) the Father and the Son and the Vau is the Hook (You are the hook, the joint that reveals both the Father and the Son AS ONE )
Blessed are they who see the deeper meanings Guys,No biggy, but geesh~ is all this wrangling still going on?~can we not share what we see and let other BE~
Im still a Mod here Until someone tells me differently~AFTER 5mths maybe it time to JUST quit it~and MOVE ON~ :HeartThrob:
Or you could teach us what you have learned. :happygrin:
D V D two gates, Father and Son? And we are the hook that reveals them as one? Does that liken us to [carriers of] the Holy Spirit?
Are we the third part of the trinity? Tell me more.
You must be studying with Messianic Jews.
Quote from: redhotmagma on October 21, 2011, 07:41:41 PM
How do we let the spirit rightly divide instead of our mind? What exactly does it mean? I pray for God to speak to me, to lead me, to open my eyes to His Word, I don't hear a voice from heaven (well once or twice) How do we put on the mind of Christ? What is the difference between natural reasoning and spiritual reasoning?
I'm not being snarky here either. I want deep, I want more.
For me, #1 is to pursue Christ above all else . . .which most do but spiritual truth comes with unabandonment on our part. It means, like the woman with an issue of blood, I don't care how many people claim their opinions on this or that, I know that if I press in I will be able to "touch" Christ and in doing so, it will heal "me". But, like the woman, laws need to be broken. For Israel to be freed from Egypt, the Egyptian belief system had to be broken. Before my anointed man can be freed "in me". My natural-thinking man has to be broken . . .it's all the same pattern.
#2, it's much like sleep. You can't enter into it, you have to let it come to you. One of the biggest obstacles that keeps sleep from coming is the activity in . .again . . .our minds. How do I enter into spiritual rest? How do you go to sleep at night? For me, lights are an issue, as is noise, I sleep with a box fan and anymore, as soon as that gets turned on, my eyes automatically start getting heavy. You can't sleep standing, so becoming "prostrate" . . .sound familiar? It's much like putting on the armor of God . . .having done all things necessary to stand firm . . .stand firm. Well . . .having done all things in preparation for rest, then let rest come. Having done all that is required to receive truth, then merely let truth come to you.
Another one is in Genesis . . .I believe a precedence is set in the first verses where it speaks about the Spirit hovering over the "face" of the "deep". For me, that's the outline, the frame work of how to read the Bible for spiritual truth. The deep "calls" to the deep. The Spirit calls to our spirit . . .as we read the written words inspired by the deep bringing revelation to the depths of the authors own lives, as we read what's on the surface, the spirit calls us to go deeper.
My mind can't see spiritual truths. It doesn't come by way of flesh and blood. So how do we get to the point where we can understand them? It starts by slowing the Bible reading down and just let your spirit ponder what you've read . . .hover over the "face" the "identity of the message . . .you see my face, but what's on my face is merely the surface of "me". To get to know the depths of "me", you're not going to "know" me unless you hover over the surface of the depths . . . If I'm not mistaken, the hovering there is to imply brooding . . .like a bird in a nest with her young.
Allow your mind to "entertain" the idea that God's got something he wants to lead you into that's beyond what you think you already understand about the verse . .especially when you're reading something that seems to have an anomaly in it. Something either stands out, or doesn't fit . . .like when God is speaking to Adam and Eve after they've admitted their guilt and God is instructing them of what they're now going to be experiencing outside of the garden. Adam's identity is now going to be through labor. Eve is now going to experience pain in childbirth . . .in the middle of all of that, God tells Eve she's going to "desire after Adam". For me, that's an anomaly. It just doesn't seem to go with the flow of what is transpiring.
Word definitions do help "assist" but again, this is not to "base" your relationship standards in God, but instead, reading Scripture is merely to affirm the base that God has already been building in you. Study to "show yourself" approved. . .
That might be another reason why this particular subject and thread is somewhat a passion of mine. Basing my belief on what I read is not . . .sigh . . .I'm gonna say it anyway . . .basing my belief on what I read in Scripture is not God's will. I don't think it is anyway, I'm sure I'm a minority in saying it, but the truth is, to me, my belief is to be based on what HE builds IN me. Christ is building the church, not us. My mind wants to make sense of everything, it wants to conform it to a simpler uniformity rather than the extravagant uniqueness that our individual relationships really are, and should be.
My mind has a David-mentality. It "wants" to build a house for God. But in reality, it can't because my mind is an emntiy, it's at war with the very things "I" want to be identified with. I want complete and total spiritual freedom in Christ. My mind doesn't even know what that is. But I claim it because my spirit cries for it. So I don't care what appears to make sense and doesn't make sense. My desire is to spend every day on an ascended plain where the spirit pours out on all flesh.
It's okay that my David doesn't build the ark, my David is a man of war. But through my David comes a Solomon. Everything about Solomon typifies rest. One of the biggest for me is the fact that it's about "three's". Saul was the first king of Israel, David the second, Solomon the third. Second dimension understanding has the desire to build the temple, but only the Third dimension can experience the raising of the temple . . .all the work was done "outside" the city. It was "assembled" within the city gates, but the actual building took place outside . . .the city is the realm of rest. it's in all of us. We just have to create the atmosphere . . .like sleep . . .once we've shut the lights off, turned the fan on, rolled the covers back . . .lay ourselves out prostrate in the darkness . . .we wait upon the Rest to take over our lives.
Quote from: Molly on October 21, 2011, 07:45:09 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 21, 2011, 06:15:48 PM
typology and symbolism , shadows tyoes and patterns relay the hidden not seen by the Eye, Unles of course its Revealed#Paul the greatest Mystic of ALL.
Having spent some time with two Hebrew scholars, coming to understand the symbolic 22 letters of The hebrew alpabhet . we come to learn words Like DA-V ID~
This truth of Agape is encapsulated in Name "David" ="Daleth Vau Daleth". This name contains the two gates(Daleth) the Father and the Son and the Vau is the Hook (You are the hook, the joint that reveals both the Father and the Son AS ONE )
Blessed are they who see the deeper meanings Guys,No biggy, but geesh~ is all this wrangling still going on?~can we not share what we see and let other BE~
Im still a Mod here Until someone tells me differently~AFTER 5mths maybe it time to JUST quit it~and MOVE ON~ :HeartThrob:
Or you could teach us what you have learned. :happygrin:
D V D two gates, Father and Son? And we are the hook that reveals them as one? Does that liken us to [carriers of] the Holy Spirit?
Are we the third part of the trinity? Tell me more.
You must be studying with Messianic Jews.
Daleth [ GATE] a symbol of inner Light[HE the Light of [ Revelation\Love], Knowledge and Wisdom = Father \son, the Nail\Hook Fastened TO\BY HIM, The Golden Nail of TRUTH,
WE HIS called out assembly are ONE in HIM, the voice unto others of THE WISDOM SPOKEN above~= Bearing Testimony of the Power and Wisdom of God ~
The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and [that which was] written [was] upright, [even] words of truth.
Ecc 12:11 The words of the wise [are] as goads, and as nails fastened [by] the masters of assemblies, [which] are given from one shepherd.
FOR WE ARE """"ONE"""""" :icon_flower:
QuoteAdam's identity is now going to be through labor. Eve is now going to experience pain in childbirth . . .in the middle of all of that, God tells Eve she's going to "desire after Adam". For me, that's an anomaly. It just doesn't seem to go with the flow of what is transpiring.
:icon_flower:
Eve is Adam Mind Right Nat~ likened\Types to the Soul Being the Child or woman , The Lord sees ALL Mankind as WOMEN as it was HIS [EVE] who Birthed The Carnal Mind, the Bewitched Illusion~
So would ya say Men have to Be born again as women, The Birthing of the SON within= Travail of Childbirth~~
seems Odd that Adam shall LABOUR with the SWEAT of his Bro[ Head] for BREAD~ :icon_flower:
SAVED by Childbearing~
Gen 3:19 ~Man shall sweat by the LABOUR of His Brow, For Bread [ The Birthing of the LIVING MANNA. The SON within~~~~ the Travail given to all men
Ecc 3:10, come the Birthing of the SON within,as are the Birthpangs being our EVE\woman Renewed~
A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for" JOY"[ Christ] that a man is born into the world. ~ HE ,the JOY Paul mentions"We are HELPERS of YOUR JOY, ~ Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
I really like that "saved through child-bearing" because when you look at it through "Adam=spirit/Eve=soul" perspective, it really fits in with the renewing of the mind. My mind is renewed through the birthing of spiritual understanding. After that, our minds are in a new identity, just like the woman is now become a mother . . .she's still a woman as before, but now, she's "become" a mother through the bearing of the seed of life that came from the man/spirit.
Is there a differentiation between those who are of the Body of Christ and those who are the Bride of Christ?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 21, 2011, 11:11:55 PM
Is there a differentiation between those who are of the Body of Christ and those who are the Bride of Christ?
I see THE body as WHOLE as Mankind, the Bride being the Called out assembly~ :icon_flower:
Holy of Holies: The Sons
Inner Court: The Bride
Outer Court: The world
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 21, 2011, 11:11:55 PM
Is there a differentiation between those who are of the Body of Christ and those who are the Bride of Christ?
I think there is a difference. The Bride is Israel, the Body is of Christ, called out ones.
CHB
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 22, 2011, 12:18:20 AM
Holy of Holies: The Sons
Inner Court: The Bride
Outer Court: The world
What's outside of the Temple? Outside of the camp?
no one!
Quote from: Nathan on October 21, 2011, 09:02:12 PM
#2, it's much like sleep. You can't enter into it, you have to let it come to you. One of the biggest obstacles that keeps sleep from coming is the activity in . .again . . .our minds. How do I enter into spiritual rest? How do you go to sleep at night? For me, lights are an issue, as is noise, I sleep with a box fan and anymore, as soon as that gets turned on, my eyes automatically start getting heavy. You can't sleep standing, so becoming "prostrate" . . .sound familiar? It's much like putting on the armor of God . . .having done all things necessary to stand firm . . .stand firm. Well . . .having done all things in preparation for rest, then let rest come. Having done all that is required to receive truth, then merely let truth come to you.
And then I fall asleep :Sparkletooth: Seriously, I've been doing much of this part at least, and I keep falling asleep, I guess I'm like the disciples :lazy:
· submission
· humility
· obedience
It's the righteousness of Christ that stands us upright in the Kingdom.
Stand up!
Maybe the mind of Christ is at work, right about the time you(Beloved) asked the question about there being a difference between the body and the bride I was thinking that, and actually thinking about you Beloved, I had not read the post . Whoa
Whoa, indeed!
There's only One Truth and His Spirit will always witness to our Spirit. The two witnesses!
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 01:27:03 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 22, 2011, 12:18:20 AM
Holy of Holies: The Sons
Inner Court: The Bride
Outer Court: The world
What's outside of the Temple? Outside of the camp?
I don't think there is any relevance to what's outside the camp anymore. We're not to measure the outer court. I think it's also patterned after the removing of the veil in that the Old Covenant "was" the veil and once Jesus fulfilled it in this realm, he blended it into the Holy of Holies. It was signifying the transfer of God's venue of communcations from law in stone to law in hearts of men. So, perhaps the combnation of two becoming as one then "can" take into consideration the outside of the camp being the world, the outer court being the bride and the marrying of, or expansion of the Holy of holies and holy place being the sons.
I see this also overlayed in Genesis. The Garden itself being the world, tree of knowledge being the bride, tree of life being the sons.
Two is the number of witness . . .one witness . . .one Lord. So it's not a message about "who are the two witnesses" but instead its more about identifying the fact that there are two witnesses revealing ONE messae, the revelation of life is in the message they bear rather than trying to identify "them", identify the message they bring and how it's received/rejected.
Quote from: redhotmagma on October 22, 2011, 04:41:39 AM
Quote from: Nathan on October 21, 2011, 09:02:12 PM
#2, it's much like sleep. You can't enter into it, you have to let it come to you. One of the biggest obstacles that keeps sleep from coming is the activity in . .again . . .our minds. How do I enter into spiritual rest? How do you go to sleep at night? For me, lights are an issue, as is noise, I sleep with a box fan and anymore, as soon as that gets turned on, my eyes automatically start getting heavy. You can't sleep standing, so becoming "prostrate" . . .sound familiar? It's much like putting on the armor of God . . .having done all things necessary to stand firm . . .stand firm. Well . . .having done all things in preparation for rest, then let rest come. Having done all that is required to receive truth, then merely let truth come to you.
And then I fall asleep :Sparkletooth: Seriously, I've been doing much of this part at least, and I keep falling asleep, I guess I'm like the disciples :lazy:
That's really a great thought! In that night, you see a separation in the church. The majority of the disciples remained in one place, then Jesus led only three further along . . .sheep from goats? Bride from sons?? And as much as they were willing to die with him, their flesh could not wthstand the demands of this realm. They had not yet passed through the ascended place where the Spirit poured out on ALL flesh.
I would often do the same thing in my prayer time. I'd lay on the floor and start out in prayer . . .only to wake up 15 minutes later with drool on my arm. :dontknow:
Then I realized "pray without ceasing" isn't restricted only to closet alone time . . .but it's merely "hovering over the face of the deep" throughout the day . . .all the time, no matter where you are or what you're doing, your mind is just ightly giving thought from time to time about heavenely things.
I also think that it's not so much about having a spiritual experience to manifest in your consciousness as you get ready for rest . .but it's more about the process of creating the atmosphere in your heart and mind for Rest to come . .where there is rest, there is revelation, it goes hand in hand. But even if you literally fall asleep . . .the last thing you did before dozing off was . . .you were preparing your atmosphere for the Spirit to come "pass over" you . . . kinda like putting an air freshener in your home, or scented candles . . . you can leave the room but the scent that creates the ambiance is still there . . .
For me, when the Spirit and the Bride say "come", that's not a call to action as much as it is a call to submission. Think about it, if you were already going in "that" direction, there'd be no need for one to call you to come. But the fact that the call to come is sounding, isn't that an implication that we're either facing or going in the wrong direction in the first place? Lay down your goals, plans and expectations . . .submissively, willingly . . .in doing so, the act itself is the conduit that takes us there, and brings there here.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 01:27:03 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 22, 2011, 12:18:20 AM
Holy of Holies: The Sons
Inner Court: The Bride
Outer Court: The world
What's outside of the Temple? Outside of the camp?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 22, 2011, 02:34:20 AM
no one!
The world = the wedding guests?
I think "shortly after the marriage" there is a fourth group. Those outside the gates of New Jerusalem.
So my suggestion is:
Holy of Holies: The Sons
Inner Court: The Bride
Outer Court: The guests at the wedding
Outside the court/camp: The world. (thieves, sorcerers, etc) -> The people that wanted attend to the wedding but were cast in outer darkness
The way I see it the pattern always had 4 parts not 3.
To be honest, I have problems with 1 and 2. I think they are both in the Holies of Holies if I compare with the earthly Jewish wedding. (A pattern)
The wedding started with the bride and groom locking them selfs in the bridal room the groom has build. (mansion?)
They consummate the marriage while the best friend of the groom waits at the door. When the first sex is done the groom notifies his friend trough the closed door. (I don't know the reason)
Bride and groom stay in the room for seven days. When they leave the room the wedding guests are waiting. Possibly already partying.
My thought is that the bridal room is a pattern of the Holies of Holies. Meaning both son and bride are in there.
:dontknow:
Random bit of info: Weddings aways took place on Tuesday because God blesses each day except monday but gives a double blessing on Tuesday.
I see it as two dimensions overlapping. I am forced to live in one and choose to live in the other.
Blessings are showered on me, I am led, my steps directed, miraculous things are always happening.
I used to think I had to be in charge of my life with goals and worries. Now I understand, seek first the kingdom of God and he will add all things to you.
This is really entering into his rest for me. As usual, it's completely literal. It's truly wonderful. I don't really live in this world anymore.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 09:45:09 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 01:27:03 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 22, 2011, 12:18:20 AM
Holy of Holies: The Sons
Inner Court: The Bride
Outer Court: The world
What's outside of the Temple? Outside of the camp?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 22, 2011, 02:34:20 AM
no one!
The world = the wedding guests?
I think "shortly after the marriage" there is a fourth group. Those outside the gates of New Jerusalem.
So my suggestion is:
Holy of Holies: The Sons
Inner Court: The Bride
Outer Court: The guests at the wedding
Outside the court/camp: The world. (thieves, sorcerers, etc) -> The people that wanted attend to the wedding but were cast in outer darkness
The way I see it the pattern always had 4 parts not 3.
To be honest, I have problems with 1 and 2. I think they are both in the Holies of Holies if I compare with the earthly Jewish wedding. (A pattern)
The wedding started with the bride and groom locking them selfs in the bridal room the groom has build. (mansion?)
They consummate the marriage while the best friend of the groom waits at the door. When the first sex is done the groom notifies his friend trough the closed door. (I don't know the reason)
Bride and groom stay in the room for seven days. When they leave the room the wedding guests are waiting. Possibly already partying.
My thought is that the bridal room is a pattern of the Holies of Holies. Meaning both son and bride are in there.
:dontknow:
Random bit of info: Weddings aways took place on Tuesday because God blesses each day except monday but gives a double blessing on Tuesday.
I think it depends on timing.
Whether you are talking about this aion or the next.
The sons are in the holy of holies now. They are the Melchizedek priests, they are given eternal life.
The bride, I think, will be taken at the first resurrection. :dontknow:
The brides are the ones that are "raptured". I'm not trying to start a rapture thread; I just think the 7 years are the the 7 days that the bride and groom spend in the bridal suite. I don't believe in literal end time with strange monsters and stuff; but even then it's problematic for me. How do such events relate to a Jewish wedding?
That pattern also shows that bride and groom leave the suite. Using Bservs example it means they leave the Holies of Holies.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 11:10:29 AM
The brides are the ones that are "raptured". I'm not trying to start a rapture thread; I just think the 7 years are the the 7 days that the bride and groom spend in the bridal suite. I don't believe in literal end time with strange monsters and stuff; but even then it's problematic for me. How do such events relate to a Jewish wedding?
That pattern also shows that bride and groom leave the suite. Using Bservs example it means they leave the Holies of Holies.
Agree the bride is the one raptured. But Christ arrives for his bride with ten thousands of his saints, just like the groom arrives with his wedding party.
So some are already with him. That is, the cloud, his holy ones.
5And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.
So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.
13And it was so, that when they that bare the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, he sacrificed oxen and fatlings.
14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
2 Sam 6
Interesting stuff, guys. A little meat with the bread :)
Quote from: Taffy on October 21, 2011, 09:35:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 21, 2011, 07:45:09 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 21, 2011, 06:15:48 PM
typology and symbolism , shadows tyoes and patterns relay the hidden not seen by the Eye, Unles of course its Revealed#Paul the greatest Mystic of ALL.
Having spent some time with two Hebrew scholars, coming to understand the symbolic 22 letters of The hebrew alpabhet . we come to learn words Like DA-V ID~
This truth of Agape is encapsulated in Name "David" ="Daleth Vau Daleth". This name contains the two gates(Daleth) the Father and the Son and the Vau is the Hook (You are the hook, the joint that reveals both the Father and the Son AS ONE )
Blessed are they who see the deeper meanings Guys,No biggy, but geesh~ is all this wrangling still going on?~can we not share what we see and let other BE~
Im still a Mod here Until someone tells me differently~AFTER 5mths maybe it time to JUST quit it~and MOVE ON~ :HeartThrob:
Or you could teach us what you have learned. :happygrin:
D V D two gates, Father and Son? And we are the hook that reveals them as one? Does that liken us to [carriers of] the Holy Spirit?
Are we the third part of the trinity? Tell me more.
You must be studying with Messianic Jews.
Daleth [ GATE] a symbol of inner Light[HE the Light of [ Revelation\Love], Knowledge and Wisdom = Father \son, the Nail\Hook Fastened TO\BY HIM, The Golden Nail of TRUTH, WE HIS called out assembly are ONE in HIM, the voice unto others of THE WISDOM SPOKEN above~= Bearing Testimony of the Power and Wisdom of God ~
The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and [that which was] written [was] upright, [even] words of truth.
Ecc 12:11 The words of the wise [are] as goads, and as nails fastened [by] the masters of assemblies, [which] are given from one shepherd.
FOR WE ARE """"ONE"""""" :icon_flower:
Hear, O Israel: yehôvâh 'ĕlôhı̂ym is one LORD
--Deut 6:4
Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 03:05:54 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 11:10:29 AM
The brides are the ones that are "raptured". I'm not trying to start a rapture thread; I just think the 7 years are the the 7 days that the bride and groom spend in the bridal suite. I don't believe in literal end time with strange monsters and stuff; but even then it's problematic for me. How do such events relate to a Jewish wedding?
That pattern also shows that bride and groom leave the suite. Using Bservs example it means they leave the Holies of Holies.
Agree the bride is the one raptured. But Christ arrives for his bride with ten thousands of his saints, just like the groom arrives with his wedding party.
So some are already with him. That is, the cloud, his holy ones.
Must be all male saints then, because a man hanging out with women isn't one of the most honorble things to do in an ancient Jewish society.
But are they really saints? Are they the same cloud as the one that was above mt Sinai?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 03:46:06 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 03:05:54 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 11:10:29 AM
The brides are the ones that are "raptured". I'm not trying to start a rapture thread; I just think the 7 years are the the 7 days that the bride and groom spend in the bridal suite. I don't believe in literal end time with strange monsters and stuff; but even then it's problematic for me. How do such events relate to a Jewish wedding?
That pattern also shows that bride and groom leave the suite. Using Bservs example it means they leave the Holies of Holies.
Agree the bride is the one raptured. But Christ arrives for his bride with ten thousands of his saints, just like the groom arrives with his wedding party.
So some are already with him. That is, the cloud, his holy ones.
Must be all male saints then, because a man hanging out with women isn't one of the most honorble things to do in an ancient Jewish society.
But are they really saints? Are they the same cloud as the one that was above mt Sinai?
We see the cloud in the OT and we see the saints [holy ones] in the OT.
Also, we see both in the NT.
These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes and make straight his Way.
The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.
John 3:29
The saints are of a lower order than the bride.
The bride is allowed in the bridal room/Holies of Holies.
The saints/guests aren't allowed to enter.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 04:06:04 PM
The saints are of a lower order than the bride.
The bride is allowed in the bridal room/Holies of Holies.
The saints/guests aren't allowed to enter.
They are his priests.
Does the priest go into the bridal chamber after he marries you?
You are assuming the bride is taken into the holy of holies, but only the priest goes in there.
Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 04:13:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 04:06:04 PM
The saints are of a lower order than the bride.
The bride is allowed in the bridal room/Holies of Holies.
The saints/guests aren't allowed to enter.
They are his priests.
Does the priest go into the bridal chamber after he marries you?
You are assuming the bride is taken into the holy of holies, but only the priest goes in there.
I don't think there is a separation between the saints and Christ, for He is the head of the body. So the overcomers are already the body of Christ, and then the bride is brought into the picture, then the two shall become one, reuniting Adam and Eve back into the image of God. The revealing of the sons of God is what creation groans for, which I think is at the fullness of the gentiles, then the bride Israel/carnal church is brought in. The revealing of the sons is when we have grown up into the fullness of Christ. Christ was revealed in Paul, He will be revealed in us, then we will bring about the consumation of the ages. :2c:
I think the whore of BAbylon becomes the bride, see Eze 16 compared to the whore in Rev.
Quote from: redhotmagma on October 22, 2011, 05:08:47 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 04:13:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 04:06:04 PM
The saints are of a lower order than the bride.
The bride is allowed in the bridal room/Holies of Holies.
The saints/guests aren't allowed to enter.
They are his priests.
Does the priest go into the bridal chamber after he marries you?
You are assuming the bride is taken into the holy of holies, but only the priest goes in there.
I don't think there is a separation between the saints and Christ, for He is the head of the body. So the overcomers are already the body of Christ, and then the bride is brought into the picture, then the two shall become one, reuniting Adam and Eve back into the image of God. The revealing of the sons of God is what creation groans for, which I think is at the fullness of the gentiles, then the bride Israel/carnal church is brought in. The revealing of the sons is when we have grown up into the fullness of Christ. Christ was revealed in Paul, He will be revealed in us, then we will bring about the consumation of the ages. :2c:
I think the whore of BAbylon becomes the bride, see Eze 16 compared to the whore in Rev.
OK. Here's something else to think about--
but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, Eph 4:15
Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, [1 Pet 2:2]
We are to grow up into Christ. So that he might be the firstborn of many brothers.
The best man, the friend of the groom, is a friend to God.
Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 05:21:02 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on October 22, 2011, 05:08:47 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 04:13:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 04:06:04 PM
The saints are of a lower order than the bride.
The bride is allowed in the bridal room/Holies of Holies.
The saints/guests aren't allowed to enter.
They are his priests.
Does the priest go into the bridal chamber after he marries you?
You are assuming the bride is taken into the holy of holies, but only the priest goes in there.
I don't think there is a separation between the saints and Christ, for He is the head of the body. So the overcomers are already the body of Christ, and then the bride is brought into the picture, then the two shall become one, reuniting Adam and Eve back into the image of God. The revealing of the sons of God is what creation groans for, which I think is at the fullness of the gentiles, then the bride Israel/carnal church is brought in. The revealing of the sons is when we have grown up into the fullness of Christ. Christ was revealed in Paul, He will be revealed in us, then we will bring about the consumation of the ages. :2c:
I think the whore of BAbylon becomes the bride, see Eze 16 compared to the whore in Rev.
OK. Here's something else to think about--
but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, Eph 4:15
Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, [1 Pet 2:2]
We are to grow up into Christ. So that he might be the firstborn of many brothers.
The best man, the friend of the groom, is a friend to God.
Heres a Poser~
The Intended Bride was always Isaerl , But the friend who HEARS HIS VOICE enters the Upper room , the frend it seems who becomes the Called out assembly~
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
"BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES. [Mat 12:18]
The friends are the chosen ones in Christ. Many are called but few are chosen. They are the sons of God.
I think it's important to distinguish between the house of Israel [the 10 northern tribes lost to history, no one knows who they are] and the house of Judah [the tribe of Judah and his friends who came back to Jerusalem and rebuilt the temple, without them there would be no OT] Prophesy says that God will reunite these two, and the two sticks shall become one in his hand [the Law and Grace].
Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 04:13:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 04:06:04 PM
The saints are of a lower order than the bride.
The bride is allowed in the bridal room/Holies of Holies.
The saints/guests aren't allowed to enter.
They are his priests.
Does the priest go into the bridal chamber after he marries you?
Not entirely sure but the couple married 1-2 years ago.
A boy goes to the father of the girl.
In her presense the boy asks the father permission.
Father and son agree on a price.
The girl agrees if she drinks wine with the boy. --> They are now betrothed. It was a contract.
From then on the girl wears a veil so that every boy can see she's no longer availble.
The boy goes home and starts building a room or decorating one. Stacks it with food and drinks to last a week.
The boys father inspects the work and gives his ok or not)
Usually that took 1-2 years.
No priest is involved.
Jesus is coming for His bride. He can't just do that. It requires the above mentioned steps. So my thought is that ther are many veiled women on earth right now. :winkgrin:
QuoteYou are assuming the bride is taken into the holy of holies, but only the priest goes in there.
Just trying to match the pattern.
To me the bridal rooms seems the most sacret place during the wedding.
May answer was also based on the list Bserv posted
John 14 [ACV]
2 In my Father's house are many dwellings, and if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Mansions=bridal rooms.
Quote from: Taffy on October 22, 2011, 05:32:15 PMHeres a Poser~
The Intended Bride was always Isaerl , But the friend who HEARS HIS VOICE enters the Upper room , the frend it seems who becomes the Called out assembly~
The friend of the groom hears the voice after the couple is in the room.
That means the assembly is not called out first.
QuoteBut when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
Last supper (actually the real Passover imo) was in a upper room.
Was that the betrothel?????
The phsyical Bride was Israel ,the spiritual Bride is the called out asembly, the friend who listens at the""DOOR""is also LIKENED to John who Joy is complete being the Voice before the LORD[ forerunner] as hes NOW one with His bride~...the friend also becomes apart of the Spirtual Bride~ JB in Type is a symbol of those underlaw[ carnal minded] who when they HEAR his VOICE[ SHEEP] become His Bride
would be a Better way of saying it~ :icon_flower:
The passover was the partaking of his blood and Body, In type of the REAL Flesh{ Living manna] and Blood[ LIFE] we feed from being HIS Bride~
Quote from: wwLast supper (actually the real Passover imo) was in a upper room.
Was that the betrothel?????
Yes it is. Jewish wedding --the betrothal takes place with sharing of bread and wine, then the groom goes back to his father's house, and will come for his bride later.
But they are essentially married at that point, just not consummated.
That's why Paul tells the church to continue in the communion--to remember they are the betrothed of Christ.
Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 07:05:37 PM
Quote from: wwLast supper (actually the real Passover imo) was in a upper room.
Was that the betrothel?????
Yes it is. Jewish wedding --the betrothal takes place with sharing of bread and wine
Was there a Father present?
I'm fairly sure bread is not part of the betrothel. Only the wine.
Likely teh bread symbolized the price the groom pays to the father.
Still one thing that's wrong with the whole pattern.
The father is the father of the bride. Not of the groom. Obviously Jesus wasn't making a contract with the fathers of the 12.
But His own Father doesn't fit in the pattern....?
Found a nice article: http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/rtg/rtg-rts/rtgrts02.txt
it IS a nice article,enjoyed it.
Sos when speaking of the beloved...never mentions her Father,her mother only[mother of all the living] In Psalms 45 the wedding songs
she is instructed to 'forget your people,your Father's house" and God said, even your first father's sinned against me. to me...
as best I understand this matter...it correlates to...ye do the will of your father.....all correlating to the prince of this world.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2011, 09:32:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2011, 07:05:37 PM
Quote from: wwLast supper (actually the real Passover imo) was in a upper room.
Was that the betrothel?????
Yes it is. Jewish wedding --the betrothal takes place with sharing of bread and wine
Was there a Father present?
I'm fairly sure bread is not part of the betrothel. Only the wine.
Likely teh bread symbolized the price the groom pays to the father.
Still one thing that's wrong with the whole pattern.
The father is the father of the bride. Not of the groom. Obviously Jesus wasn't making a contract with the fathers of the 12.
But His own Father doesn't fit in the pattern....?
The father of the groom picks out the bride. See the story of Isaac. The father also determines the [unknown] wedding date.
They will go to the father's house to live when the bridal chamber is ready.
Yes bread at the betrothal ceremony. That's the way I was taught by a messianic Jew.
I'm actually surprised that so many disagree with Nathan, yet are ok with what I said. Are we really saying anything different?
That reminds me . . .no one took a shot at this the first time . . .any takers this time?
You've also said that you read the Bible always looking for spiritual patterns . . . when Jesus rebukes Peter for taking a swing at the high priests servant and tells him to put his sword away . . .what spiritual patter does that speak of to you?
he who sheds man's blood,by man his blood shall be shed? every man's hand will be against his brother
sword is a symbol for word\s, now was not the TIME or season for the Priest to Understand the LORD VOICE, AS ALL SHOULD be fulfilled ~ Faith comes By hearing and Peter[ who used by the lord as symbol of carnal Man[ Three times you will Deny ME= Trimester , until we come of AGE~] took upon Himself to protect the lord# the LORD needs no protecting~ as HEARING [ ears]comes through The REVELATION of HIM~ WE HAVE NO need to prove\protect anything to anyone~ Tis HIS WORK through us~\Malchus MEANS KING , KINGDOM~ HIS SWORD[life] heals our DEAF ears~ This was Not Peters work to DO~YET~ :icon_flower:
loved that post,Taffy :HeartThrob:
Taf, as usual, you're right on track.
Just previously to this, Jesus told the disciples to go and sell what they had so they could buy swords for themselves. The time for his capture was drawing near. The disciples just happened to have two swords amongst them and his response was . . .out of TWELVE DISCIPLES they came back with TWO SWORDS and his response was . . .that'll do.
Luke 22
36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. (hmmm, could it be that the "sword" was to take the place of the garment that covers?)
37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Then, just a breath later, the disciples are trying to connect the dots in the midst of terror and fear.
49When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
50And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.
I like that "somebody" is asking while Peter is already swinging.
But we're looking for patterns here . . .so what are the players? The sword of course is the Word. The disciples, the followers of the New and Living Way were just instructed to make the obtainment of a sword their top priority. The ear that was severed. Not an arm, not someone's head, but specifically and ONLY an ear. Does not the Spirit constantly cry out through Scripture "he that hath AN EAR let him hear"? Is not one's faith originate with HEARING? As opposed to "seeing"? The sheep are known by recognizing the SOUND of his voice as opposed to SEEING the manifestations of his power.
What exactly is Peter trying to accomplish? Is he not DEFENDING Jesus? Does Jesus "need" our aid? This accomplished two major things, and both are not good. One, Jesus rebuked him for it. And two, the result of his attempt to defend Jesus was only to deafen the one he thought he needed to defend Jesus "from". Who was "that" guy? Another player.
He wasn't a soldier, he wasn't even armed. He was the SERVANT (slave of) of the High Priest . . .Again, the disciples represent the followers of the New Covenant, this guy that got his ear cut off was a guy that represented the opposite . . .he represented the supporters of the Old Covenant. So . . .you have the Old Covenant taking captive the seed of Life and those who have already been resurrected by that seed take it upon themselves to try to defend the seed. The result? Keep in mind the Sword is a key player in all of this. It was Peter's MISUSE of the Sword that brought deafness to the servant of the high priest . . .see where this is all going?
The guys ear is cut off, Jesus rebukes Peter and tells him to PUT AWAY THE SWORD that he had just told them to sell all they owned in order to obtain. So . . .Jesus, who is, as John states, "the Word", he picks up the ear and HEALS THE SERVANT . . .notice Peter didn't heal anyone here, but Jesus was the one doing the healing.
This brings it all around full circle to THIS particular thread . . .man can not live by BREAD ALONE. It didn't do Peter any good to rely on the sword alone because he didn't comprehend it's purpose. It takes a PROCEEDING WORD to illuminate the power of the sword that RIGHTLY DIVIDES flesh from spirit. What if God told "you" to lay down your Bibles for a while until you matured into a place where it's placement and usage grew "in" you FIRST???
Rather than arguing against the very thought, can you imagine the kind of power that could manifest through you because you were actually willing to do the unthinkable??? Does this not provoke one to think? What is really most important here . . .that we use the Sword in the effectiveness of which the Father originally intended? Or that we just swing away at whoever appears to be against us?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 22, 2011, 12:18:20 AM
Holy of Holies: The Sons
Inner Court: The Bride
Outer Court: The world
WOW i WAS THINKING ABOU THIS YESterday.
I was thinking that perhaps the church should operate at this operation.
So that in the inner court are the holy peculiar people of God, but the outer court is another part of the church where the saved gentiles go.
These are the people that have come to Christ but still are idolaters etc.
This solves the problem of the church of reconciling two challenges.
Because scripture says to put out that unclean person form among you.
But also says to preach into the highways and byways and welcome all people.
Recently I was placed into a position that I knew was to be. I couldn't prove it, I just knew it. I wasn't specifically told why, but I made assumptions. This was spiritual revelation vs natural logic working within me. I get here and find a foreign world, something I didn't expect. It was actually much different than I expected, but I knew that I was supposed to be here. I am dealing daily with some people who are angry, belligerent, verbally abusive and very tough to love. I struggled, because my natural logic couldn't figure out the plan...the why. I was only told the place.
Again I used natural logic to "figure it out"...and the answers I came up with were not truth and I knew it. Then like with everything else in spiritual revelation to me...I knew why...I didn't need to reason it out. At one moment it wasn't there and the next moment it was...without effort and filled with peace.
I was being taught to love. It was easy for me to love those who loved, respected and were kind to me. I am able to reciprocate. But, what about those who are disrespectful, abusive, and difficult? I realized that I really didn't know what it is to love with the love of Christ. And it fit together with the later chapters in Matthew that I am reading to my daughters. Jesus loved those who abused Him, even to the point of giving His life for those who hated Him. And at that moment of revelation I knew how my love for my neighbor is shallow and conditional. It's nothing like my Saviors. I had read about the love of Christ on many occasions. I had read through Matthew on many occasions. But,the understanding of my mind never fed my spirit truth. It wasn't until I was given spiritual revelation that the verses I had read made sense to me. Until this moment those verses didn't give true understanding.
QuoteI was being taught to love. It was easy for me to love those who loved, respected and were kind to me. I am able to reciprocate. But, what about those who are disrespectful, abusive, and difficult?
the Fulness of HIS love is who we are becoming ~ When first shown Christ actually died for all not just the FEW# it opened my mind to greater depthof HIS MERCY and Compassion, then we come realise why HE SAIDlove your Enimies[ those still in Death] who will persecute you, as we SEE Christ In ALL men not the illusion they dream they are~ He Just lays sleeping until made awake~ ~ when the Lord is first Born within , we are very much babes with much growing to do~ but in HIS TIME in us and By HIM#~ To LOVE your GOD with all your heart and SOUL and the Your neighbour as yourself~ is the fulfilment of the LAW#
We stcome to SEE ALL OTHERS as we are in HIM, can you BLAME the Blind for not seeing~ or the lame canNOT yet walk~?or those in Ignorance[ Darkness] who can not SEE~This out our walk upon the Earth~
We walk in the Spirit, as In truth its only the flesh which takes Offence~thats doesnt mean one lies down as can to be Kicked , we still have the ability to move away~
I really think 95% of those involved in this thread believe the Spirit is vital to us as believers. Also, that we're sustained by EVERY WORD from the mouth of God, just as Jesus said.
However, I've been researching this a little bit, and although I'm sure there are things I've missed, I'm not sure when Jesus said "must not live by bread alone", was necessarily/solely talking about the written Word [scriptures] as has been assumed and therefor pursued in this thread. I believe it entails a wider range of things than that. :2c:
Right! if they persecute you in one city,flee to another.
can a book contain everything He says?
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2011, 09:05:56 PM
Right! if they persecute you in one city,flee to another.
:icon_flower:
but we can always return , shall we say ~"To test the AIR "~
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2011, 09:09:29 PM
can a book contain everything He says?
NO~ theres far more then the Book~ :icon_flower:
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2011, 09:05:56 PM
Right! if they persecute you in one city,flee to another.
what do you mean, sheila?
I HAVE MUCH TO WRITE TO YOU, BUT I DO NOT WANT TO USE PAPER AND INK,INSTEAD,I HOPE TO VISIT YOU AND TALK TO YOU FACE TO FACE
2 JOHN VERSE 12
TO jAB RE WHAT DO YOU MEAN? WHEN IT BECOMES SO BAD THAT PEOPLE CAN'T HEAR THE WORDS OF THE SPIRIT..AND YOU FACE PERSECUTION..
YOU CAN TAKE YOUR LEAVE,GO ELSEWHERE OR RETURN AND TRY AGAIN,AS tAFFY SAID. oFTEN TIMES,WITH GROWTH, THEY CAN THEN ACCEPT
jOHN 21;25 jESUS DID MANY OTHER THINGS AS WELL,iF EVERY ONE OF THEM WERE WRITTEN DOWN, i SUPPOSE THAT EVEN THE WHOLE WORLD
WOULD BE UNABLE TO CONTAIN THEM.
Hey Sheila
The Book of Thomas[ Twin] the HIDDEN Gospel BEING Christ[ In US] being the 5th Tree sprang to mind~ :icon_flower:
Quote from: jabcat on October 28, 2011, 09:04:26 PM
I really think 95% of those involved in this thread believe the Spirit is vital to us as believers. Also, that we're sustained by EVERY WORD from the mouth of God, just as Jesus said.
However, I've been researching this a little bit, and although I'm sure there are things I've missed, I'm not sure when Jesus said "must not live by bread alone", was necessarily/solely talking about the written Word [scriptures] as has been assumed and therefor pursued in this thread. I believe it entails a wider range of things than that. :2c:
Just a reminder Jabcat . . . my intent and point was not trying to beat people over the head with the idealism that the written word is lacking. My point was to try to point out the fact that "my perspective" as an "individual" greatly affects the overall effect of what Scripture says, does and how it applies. So that if my perspectives emphasize a single piece rather than the whole picture, then my effectiveness in application will also reflect that. This thing with the sword of Peter is merely another example of that. Anyone "can" weld a sword, but how many of us understand it's actual purpose in our individual lives?
"If" Peter wasn't to use his sword . . .why did Jesus tell them to sell all they owned in order to purchase one? I think that's a very important piece to anyone picking up a Bible, whether they intend to build a defense with it, use it as proof for what they believe, or merely as a threshold that leads into unimaginable truths that only the Spirit can reveal inwardly. If Peter was to sell all he had to obtain a sword, why would he be told to put it away?
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2011, 09:19:43 PM
I HAVE MUCH TO WRITE TO YOU, BUT I DO NOT WANT TO USE PAPER AND INK,INSTEAD,I HOPE TO VISIT YOU AND TALK TO YOU FACE TO FACE
2 JOHN VERSE 12
TO jAB RE WHAT DO YOU MEAN? WHEN IT BECOMES SO BAD THAT PEOPLE CAN'T HEAR THE WORDS OF THE SPIRIT..AND YOU FACE PERSECUTION..
YOU CAN TAKE YOUR LEAVE,GO ELSEWHERE OR RETURN AND TRY AGAIN,AS tAFFY SAID. oFTEN TIMES,WITH GROWTH, THEY CAN THEN ACCEPT
I see, thanks. I wondered if you were referring to my "broadening the scope" of what bread may mean. Thanks for clarifying. :bigGrin:
hI nATHAN, i THINK IT REPRESENTED THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT. WE WAR NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD,BUT PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS...
OF WHICH THE POWER OF THE HOUR OF DARKNESS WAS COME UPON jESUS. tHAT SWORD WAS USED AS A TEACHING TOOL TO THEM ALL...
AND TO US.rISE pETER,KILL AND EAT.
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2011, 09:49:08 PM
hI nATHAN, i THINK IT REPRESENTED THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT. WE WAR NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD,BUT PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS...
OF WHICH THE POWER OF THE HOUR OF DARKNESS WAS COME UPON jESUS. tHAT SWORD WAS USED AS A TEACHING TOOL TO THEM ALL...
AND TO US.rISE pETER,KILL AND EAT.
Hmm . . . Okay, I can see that because Peter raised his sword against men of flesh, that would represent the flesh and blood you speak of. So . .in that light of things, if the battle isn't outwardly in the flesh . . .where is it? Does the sword fight it's own battles? Do we personally play a role in the "when" and "where" and "how" the sword is to be used?
Quote from: Taffy on October 28, 2011, 09:01:48 PM
QuoteI was being taught to love. It was easy for me to love those who loved, respected and were kind to me. I am able to reciprocate. But, what about those who are disrespectful, abusive, and difficult?
the Fulness of HIS love is who we are becoming ~ When first shown Christ actually died for all not just the FEW# it opened my mind to greater depthof HIS MERCY and Compassion, then we come realise why HE SAIDlove your Enimies[ those still in Death] who will persecute you, as we SEE Christ In ALL men not the illusion they dream they are~ He Just lays sleeping until made awake~ ~ when the Lord is first Born within , we are very much babes with much growing to do~ but in HIS TIME in us and By HIM#~ To LOVE your GOD with all your heart and SOUL and the Your neighbour as yourself~ is the fulfilment of the LAW#
We stcome to SEE ALL OTHERS as we are in HIM, can you BLAME the Blind for not seeing~ or the lame canNOT yet walk~?or those in Ignorance[ Darkness] who can not SEE~This out our walk upon the Earth~
We walk in the Spirit, as In truth its only the flesh which takes Offence~thats doesnt mean one lies down as can to be Kicked , we still have the ability to move away~
Wonderful. I was blessed by that.
Does the sword fight it's own battles? Do we personally play a role in the "when" and "where" and "how" the sword is to be used?
WE are HIS sword Nate~ the sword bringing LIFE~but if the Ground is Hard ~ we Move on~ :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on October 28, 2011, 09:34:26 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 28, 2011, 09:04:26 PM
I really think 95% of those involved in this thread believe the Spirit is vital to us as believers. Also, that we're sustained by EVERY WORD from the mouth of God, just as Jesus said.
However, I've been researching this a little bit, and although I'm sure there are things I've missed, I'm not sure when Jesus said "must not live by bread alone", was necessarily/solely talking about the written Word [scriptures] as has been assumed and therefor pursued in this thread. I believe it entails a wider range of things than that. :2c:
Just a reminder Jabcat . . . my intent and point was not trying to beat people over the head with the idealism that the written word is lacking. My point was to try to point out the fact that "my perspective" as an "individual" greatly affects the overall effect of what Scripture says, does and how it applies. So that if my perspectives emphasize a single piece rather than the whole picture, then my effectiveness in application will also reflect that. This thing with the sword of Peter is merely another example of that. Anyone "can" weld a sword, but how many of us understand it's actual purpose in our individual lives?
:thumbsup:
anything that God considers bread [which might be a good exploration], He addresses by saying not
just that, but by
every word...it all works together.
Quote from: Nathan on October 28, 2011, 09:55:07 PM
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2011, 09:49:08 PM
hI nATHAN, i THINK IT REPRESENTED THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT. WE WAR NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD,BUT PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS...
OF WHICH THE POWER OF THE HOUR OF DARKNESS WAS COME UPON jESUS. tHAT SWORD WAS USED AS A TEACHING TOOL TO THEM ALL...
AND TO US.rISE pETER,KILL AND EAT.
Hmm . . . Okay, I can see that because Peter raised his sword against men of flesh, that would represent the flesh and blood you speak of. So . .in that light of things, if the battle isn't outwardly in the flesh . . .where is it? Does the sword fight it's own battles? Do we personally play a role in the "when" and "where" and "how" the sword is to be used?
The battle is in the heavenlies against the rulers of this dark age and wickedness in high places.
Therefore, pray without ceasing, and put on the full armor of God, so that in the day of evil, having done all, you can stand.
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:12:19 PM
Quote from: Nathan on October 28, 2011, 09:55:07 PM
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2011, 09:49:08 PM
hI nATHAN, i THINK IT REPRESENTED THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT. WE WAR NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD,BUT PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS...
OF WHICH THE POWER OF THE HOUR OF DARKNESS WAS COME UPON jESUS. tHAT SWORD WAS USED AS A TEACHING TOOL TO THEM ALL...
AND TO US.rISE pETER,KILL AND EAT.
Hmm . . . Okay, I can see that because Peter raised his sword against men of flesh, that would represent the flesh and blood you speak of. So . .in that light of things, if the battle isn't outwardly in the flesh . . .where is it? Does the sword fight it's own battles? Do we personally play a role in the "when" and "where" and "how" the sword is to be used?
The battle is in the heavenlies against the rulers of this dark age and wickedness in high places.
Therefore, pray without ceasing, and put on the full armor of God, so that in the day of evil, having done all, you can stand.
the battle is Indeed in the heavenlies, but equally so it is upon this Earth~WE are HIS SWORD of TRUTH,what HE IS is who WE ARE, for we are ONE in Spirit and soul~
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
--Eph 6
ALL WE CAN DO IS SPEAK THE TRUTH IF HE GIVES IT TO US. ALL WE CAN DO IS LISTEN IF WE HAVE EARS TO HEAR..THAT HE GIVES US...
WE CAN DO NOTHING OF OURSELVES....IT IS ALL HIS SPIRIT. HOW CAN YOU FOLLOW HIM IF YOUR BLIND,HEAR HIS VOICE IF DEAF.
SEEDSOF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE SOWN IN PEACE[FOR THIS REASON DAVID DIDN'T BUILD THE lORD'S HOUSE]
THE SWORD OF THE sPIRIT IS THE PEARL IN THE FEILD...EVEN THE kINGDOM OF HEAVEN.
WE ARE NOT TO THINK BEFORE HAND WHAT WE ARE TO SAY, IT WILL BE GIVEN IN THAT HOUR,FOR IT IS THE SPIRIT SPEAKING
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:19:59 PM
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
--Eph 6
the Helmet is slavation~ its HIS VERY MIND in US~ Recall the Helmet of Goliath being BRASS[ judgment] the Lords Judgment fell upon HIM= the carnal mind and slew him~ but its a Picture of DEATH unto Life~we no longer have a Carnal mind~its been slain~ we NOW HAVE HIS, we are HIS SWORD bringing OTHERS to the WORD of TRUTH~
Quote from: Taffy on October 28, 2011, 10:28:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:19:59 PM
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
--Eph 6
the Helmet is slavation~ its HIS VERY MIND in US~ Recall the Helmet of Goliath being BRASS[ judgment] the Lords Judgment fell upon HIM= the carnal mind and slew him~ but its a Picture of DEATH unto Life~we no longer have a Carnal mind~its been slain~ we NOW HAVE HIS, we are HIS SWORD bringing OTHERS to the WORD of TRUTH~
But you see the fight is not against FLESH and blood. It is against evil spirits which are OUT THERE in the heavenlies. Not inside, because we are protected from anything entering us with the full armor of God.
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:32:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 28, 2011, 10:28:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:19:59 PM
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
--Eph 6
the Helmet is slavation~ its HIS VERY MIND in US~ Recall the Helmet of Goliath being BRASS[ judgment] the Lords Judgment fell upon HIM= the carnal mind and slew him~ but its a Picture of DEATH unto Life~we no longer have a Carnal mind~its been slain~ we NOW HAVE HIS, we are HIS SWORD bringing OTHERS to the WORD of TRUTH~
But you see the fight is not against FLESH and blood. It is against evil spirits which are OUT THERE in the heavenlies. Not inside, because we are protected from anything entering us with the full armor of God.
No Molly I dont believe ive ever stated that~ the battle is inward , towrds the birthing of the man Child # equally so, the mind of men are under a SSPELL # there under a drugged Illusion known as Witcraft # these are demons etc we as the sword of TRUTH HEAL? Bringing together the Body as one~~ Its both~
Quote from: Taffy on October 28, 2011, 10:40:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:32:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 28, 2011, 10:28:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:19:59 PM
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
--Eph 6
the Helmet is slavation~ its HIS VERY MIND in US~ Recall the Helmet of Goliath being BRASS[ judgment] the Lords Judgment fell upon HIM= the carnal mind and slew him~ but its a Picture of DEATH unto Life~we no longer have a Carnal mind~its been slain~ we NOW HAVE HIS, we are HIS SWORD bringing OTHERS to the WORD of TRUTH~
But you see the fight is not against FLESH and blood. It is against evil spirits which are OUT THERE in the heavenlies. Not inside, because we are protected from anything entering us with the full armor of God.
No Molly I dont believe ive ever stated that~ the battle is inward , towrds the birthing of the man Child # equally so, the mind of men are under a SSPELL # there under a drugged Illusion known as Witcraft # these are demons etc we as the sword of TRUTH HEAL? Bringing together the Body as one~~ Its both~
It's a place where I believe we disagree.
There are no battles going on inside of me. But, there's a huge battle going on out there.
We put on armor so that as God's army we will be safe inside the armor--from what is out there.
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:44:51 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 28, 2011, 10:40:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:32:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 28, 2011, 10:28:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:19:59 PM
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
--Eph 6
the Helmet is slavation~ its HIS VERY MIND in US~ Recall the Helmet of Goliath being BRASS[ judgment] the Lords Judgment fell upon HIM= the carnal mind and slew him~ but its a Picture of DEATH unto Life~we no longer have a Carnal mind~its been slain~ we NOW HAVE HIS, we are HIS SWORD bringing OTHERS to the WORD of TRUTH~
But you see the fight is not against FLESH and blood. It is against evil spirits which are OUT THERE in the heavenlies. Not inside, because we are protected from anything entering us with the full armor of God.
No Molly I dont believe ive ever stated that~ the battle is inward , towrds the birthing of the man Child # equally so, the mind of men are under a SSPELL # there under a drugged Illusion known as Witcraft # these are demons etc we as the sword of TRUTH HEAL? Bringing together the Body as one~~ Its both~
It's a place where I believe we disagree.
There are no battles going on inside of me. But, there's a huge battle going on out there.
We put on armor so that as God's army we will be safe inside the armor--from what is out there.
I did say TOWARDS the Bithing of the SON~ Im anew Maolly# walking in the NC# so I dont think you really disagree as Much as YOU think~
We Gentile Christians are the no-people, called Lo-Ammi, rejected by God for reason of our own unfaithful behavior, and lost to history for centuries.
He is bringing us back to himself. In this Messianic age he has come only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel--the ten lost tribes. This is the greatest love story ever told.
Then the LORD said, "Call him Lo-Ammi, for you are not my people, and I am not your God. Hos 1:9
Hosea 1:10 "Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'
Hosea 2:23 I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.'"
HERES A Mind Blower Molly~ we were never LOST~ ever ever or ever~ as were all in the FATHER to Begin with~ Whats WAS\IS HI Mcame out of HIM, hence we are Predestined, Foreknew~~~ I twas Finished before it BEGAN~ AS TIME is in the NOW~
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 12:59:30 AM
HERES A Mind Blower Molly~ we were never LOST~ ever ever or ever~ as were all in the FATHER to Begin with~ Whats WAS\IS HI Mcame out of HIM, hence we are Predestined, Foreknew~~~ I twas Finished before it BEGAN~ AS TIME is in the NOW~
We were lost to ourselves, but never to him, agree.
He hid us completely from those characters--OUT THERE. Those principalities and rulers of the darkness of this age, who would most surely kill us if they could.
The same way he hid the Christ child from Herod, by sending us into Egypt, a foreign land with foreign ways.
And, 2000 years ago he started revealing us to those same characters because now Jesus was victorious over them on our behalf.
Though I am the least deserving of all God's people, he graciously gave me the privilege of telling the Gentiles about the endless treasures available to them in Christ,
and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
He did this so that now, through the church, the wisdom of God in all its variety
might be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realm. Eph 3:8-10
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:44:51 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 28, 2011, 10:40:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:32:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 28, 2011, 10:28:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 10:19:59 PM
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
--Eph 6
the Helmet is slavation~ its HIS VERY MIND in US~ Recall the Helmet of Goliath being BRASS[ judgment] the Lords Judgment fell upon HIM= the carnal mind and slew him~ but its a Picture of DEATH unto Life~we no longer have a Carnal mind~its been slain~ we NOW HAVE HIS, we are HIS SWORD bringing OTHERS to the WORD of TRUTH~
But you see the fight is not against FLESH and blood. It is against evil spirits which are OUT THERE in the heavenlies. Not inside, because we are protected from anything entering us with the full armor of God.
No Molly I dont believe ive ever stated that~ the battle is inward , towrds the birthing of the man Child # equally so, the mind of men are under a SSPELL # there under a drugged Illusion known as Witcraft # these are demons etc we as the sword of TRUTH HEAL? Bringing together the Body as one~~ Its both~
It's a place where I believe we disagree.
There are no battles going on inside of me. But, there's a huge battle going on out there.
We put on armor so that as God's army we will be safe inside the armor--from what is out there.
Fascinating!
Lately I have been interested and praying about the armour of God. I heard one guy who said he saw this demon try to fly into his head, but he heard this clanging sound and the demon bounced off him.
It came to me that I could also pray for the angels to have armour and swords so they can attack the enemy and also to give those hard working troopers a nice break. :icon_king:
the WHOLE ARMOUR is Christ Himslef In us~
Disease and sickness is an enemy.
And there are spiritual enemies in the land that may be unrecognized to a person:
hoarding
addictions
self-abasement
...the list goes on and on.
Those things listed above as well as the Prince of the Air driving the external spiritual forces.
We do not fully possess the land until we, as HE, CROSS THE JORDAN!
Quote from: jabcat on October 28, 2011, 09:04:26 PM
I really think 95% of those involved in this thread believe the Spirit is vital to us as believers. Also, that we're sustained by EVERY WORD from the mouth of God, just as Jesus said.
However, I've been researching this a little bit, and although I'm sure there are things I've missed, I'm not sure when Jesus said "must not live by bread alone", was necessarily/solely talking about the written Word [scriptures] as has been assumed and therefor pursued in this thread. I believe it entails a wider range of things than that. :2c:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 29, 2011, 03:07:14 AM
Disease and sickness is an enemy.
And there are spiritual enemies in the land that may be unrecognized to a person:
hoarding
addictions
self-abasement
...the list goes on and on.
Those things listed above as well as the Prince of the Air driving the external spiritual forces.
We do not fully possess the land until we, as HE, CROSS THE JORDAN!
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 02:55:28 AM
the WHOLE ARMOUR is Christ Himslef In us~
We wear armor on the outside, but yes, aren't we like the Ark?
A strip of wood [perishable] with a layer of beaten gold on the inside and the outside?
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 03:49:43 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 02:55:28 AM
the WHOLE ARMOUR is Christ Himslef In us~
We wear armor on the outside, but yes, aren't we like the Ark?
A strip of wood [perishable] with a layer of beaten gold on the inside and the outside?
Maybe ya missed a few of Nates posts about the Pitch~ we are ONE embibed in HIM~ at ~one~ment~ theres No leak~ :icon_flower:~ is Christ Not our COVERING?
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 03:57:29 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 03:49:43 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 02:55:28 AM
the WHOLE ARMOUR is Christ Himslef In us~
We wear armor on the outside, but yes, aren't we like the Ark?
A strip of wood [perishable] with a layer of beaten gold on the inside and the outside?
Maybe ya missed a few of Nates posts about the Pitch~ we are ONE embibed in HIM~ at ~one~ment~ theres No leak~ :icon_flower:~ is Christ Not our COVERING?
I was taking about the Ark of the Covenant which is carried by the priests.
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 04:00:12 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 03:57:29 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 03:49:43 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 02:55:28 AM
the WHOLE ARMOUR is Christ Himslef In us~
We wear armor on the outside, but yes, aren't we like the Ark?
A strip of wood [perishable] with a layer of beaten gold on the inside and the outside?
Maybe ya missed a few of Nates posts about the Pitch~ we are ONE embibed in HIM~ at ~one~ment~ theres No leak~ :icon_flower:~ is Christ Not our COVERING?
I was taking about the Ark of the Covenant which is carried by the priests.
Christ is the ark Molly~ the hidden manna, the Tablets of stone[ Unbroke,] the Rod of BUDDING life~
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 04:02:36 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 04:00:12 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 03:57:29 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 03:49:43 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 02:55:28 AM
the WHOLE ARMOUR is Christ Himslef In us~
We wear armor on the outside, but yes, aren't we like the Ark?
A strip of wood [perishable] with a layer of beaten gold on the inside and the outside?
Maybe ya missed a few of Nates posts about the Pitch~ we are ONE embibed in HIM~ at ~one~ment~ theres No leak~ :icon_flower:~ is Christ Not our COVERING?
I was taking about the Ark of the Covenant which is carried by the priests.
Christ is the ark Molly~ the hidden manna, the Tablets of stone[ Unbroke,] the Rod of BUDDING life~
I was just trying to discriminate rather than lumping everything together--because I think it is meaningful to do so.
He uses a lot of metaphors, but it's not a metaphor to me. It's real life.
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 04:07:30 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 04:02:36 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 04:00:12 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 03:57:29 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 03:49:43 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 02:55:28 AM
the WHOLE ARMOUR is Christ Himslef In us~
We wear armor on the outside, but yes, aren't we like the Ark?
A strip of wood [perishable] with a layer of beaten gold on the inside and the outside?
Maybe ya missed a few of Nates posts about the Pitch~ we are ONE embibed in HIM~ at ~one~ment~ theres No leak~ :icon_flower:~ is Christ Not our COVERING?
I was taking about the Ark of the Covenant which is carried by the priests.
Christ is the ark Molly~ the hidden manna, the Tablets of stone[ Unbroke,] the Rod of BUDDING life~
I was just trying to descriminate rather than lumping everything together--because I think it is meaningful to do so.
He uses a lot of metaphors, but it's not a metaphor to me. It's real life.
OF course its real## Good night~
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 04:08:45 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 04:07:30 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 04:02:36 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 04:00:12 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 03:57:29 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 03:49:43 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 02:55:28 AM
the WHOLE ARMOUR is Christ Himslef In us~
We wear armor on the outside, but yes, aren't we like the Ark?
A strip of wood [perishable] with a layer of beaten gold on the inside and the outside?
Maybe ya missed a few of Nates posts about the Pitch~ we are ONE embibed in HIM~ at ~one~ment~ theres No leak~ :icon_flower:~ is Christ Not our COVERING?
I was taking about the Ark of the Covenant which is carried by the priests.
Christ is the ark Molly~ the hidden manna, the Tablets of stone[ Unbroke,] the Rod of BUDDING life~
I was just trying to descriminate rather than lumping everything together--because I think it is meaningful to do so.
He uses a lot of metaphors, but it's not a metaphor to me. It's real life.
OF course its real## Good night~
The difference between Noah's ark and the ark of the covenant is--
He holds us until we are able to hold him.
"The difference between Noah's ark and the ark of the covenant is--
He holds us until we are able to hold him."
wonderful.
Isaiah 49
The Servant of the Lord
1 People who live on the islands, listen to me.
Pay attention, you nations far away.
Before I was born the Lord chose me to serve him.
He appointed me by name.
2 He made my words like a sharp sword.
He hid me in the palm of his hand.
He made me into a sharpened arrow.
He took good care of me and kept me safe.
3 He said to me, "You are my true servant Israel.
I will show my glory through you."
4 But I said, "In spite of my hard work,
I feel as if I haven't accomplished anything.
I've used up all of my strength.
It seems as if everything I've done is worthless.
But the Lord will give me what I should receive.
My God will reward me."
5 The Lord formed me in my mother's body to be his servant.
He wanted me to bring the family of Jacob back to him.
He wanted me to gather the people of Israel to himself.
The Lord will honor me.
My God will give me strength.
6 The Lord says to me,
"It is not enough for you as my servant
to bring the tribes of Jacob back to their land.
It is not enough for you to bring back
the people of Israel I have kept alive.
I will also make you a light for other nations.
Then you will make it possible for the whole world to be saved."
7 The Lord sets his people free.
He is the Holy One of Israel.
He speaks to his servant, who is looked down on and hated by the nations.
He speaks to the servant of rulers. He says to him,
"Kings will see you and rise up to honor you.
Princes will see you and bow down to show you their respect.
I am the Lord. I am faithful.
I am the Holy One of Israel.
I have chosen you."
Thanks Molly.
Beautiful encouragement for the brethren.
I don't know about anyone else, but I needed that.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 29, 2011, 04:35:29 AM
"The difference between Noah's ark and the ark of the covenant is--
He holds us until we are able to hold him."
wonderful.
Both are Entered By Faith~
Covered By Pitch # atoned # Layed in Gold upon sh-tim wood~we were always bound in HIM, we Just lost our Identity= Our Life HID in HIM in the garden~ I see no difference :icon_flower: :dontknow:
...but now were found.
It's just a lovely way of stating it.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 29, 2011, 10:12:48 PM
...but now were found.
It's just a lovely way of stating it.
:icon_flower:
Cursed is anything that hangs from a tree . . . .
See any symbolism with that one?
The difference between Noah's ark and the ark of the covenant is--
He holds us until we are able to hold him.
[/quote]
Behold the many faceted wisdom of God. These reflections are like the differring facets of a finely cut diamond, revealing glimpses of the light, refracting colors previously unnoticed.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 30, 2011, 06:38:07 PM
The difference between Noah's ark and the ark of the covenant is--
He holds us until we are able to hold him.
Behold the many faceted wisdom of God. These reflections are like the differring facets of a finely cut diamond, revealing glimpses of the light, refracting colors previously unnoticed.
[/quote]
Very good :thumbsup:
To reason there is a difference in the Ark's, is to say Jesus is different and He is not. He is the Ark, be that be the Ark of Noe and the Ark of the Covenant.
Pitch-kâphar= atonement.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages;
Quote from: Nathan on October 30, 2011, 04:11:59 AM
Cursed is anything that hangs from a tree . . . .
See any symbolism with that one?
Is that why monkeys shouldn't be eaten? :laughing7:
Fruit hangs from a tree, Jesus hung from a tree, the law hangs on the 2 commands
Men are as trees. Cursed is anything that hangs from men.
Lean not on your own understanding . . .it's cursed. Doctrines of men, religion and religious tradition . . .all things that hang from the trees of men.
It's also why there were so many things in the ark that were wood overlaid with Gold.
Everything is spiritual.
Everything is spiritual. :thumbsup:
Blessed are the Eyes \EAR that see\HEAR[Understanding] ~
Everything is spiritual!
By now, I'm sure many can vouch for that by their own walk with God.
Psalms 101.....evil deeds shall not cling to me[serpent in the tree of kogae] :grin:
Psalm 101:3
Amplified Bible (AMP)
I will set no base or wicked thing before my eyes.
I hate the work of them who turn aside [from the right path]; it shall not grasp hold of me.
What's a kogae, sheila?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 31, 2011, 11:18:21 PM
Everything is spiritual!
By now, I'm sure many can vouch for that by their own walk with God.
I for one dont dispute that!~ Maybe the Point is , the fact many see the literal, but not the LIFE in the written is the reason MOST still accept HELL to be The LAKE of FIRE~To be DEAD means your In a LITERAL grave, then one day in the future, The Lord will raise all SINNERS, the fearful et all and roast em for eternity~~Just a Thought~
of Course fine for US who can see this~ but not all who read this Board do~ do ever5 get to sence we Just chat amid ourselves~ :sigh:
Quote from: Taffy on November 01, 2011, 12:26:33 AM
get to sence we Just chat amid ourselves~ :sigh:
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
OH! GOD!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 01, 2011, 01:18:02 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 01, 2011, 12:26:33 AM
get to sence we Just chat amid ourselves~ :sigh:
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
OH! GOD!
AMEN~I think you you get the Drift Beloved~ Shalom~
Seasons are changing
Children of love are alive
People reach out to survive
Together
Love is the message
We carry across the sky
Down through the passage of
Time forever
History unfolds
As this story's told
(And it's) the mystery of love
How we go on and on forever
(And it's) the mystery of love
Coming to rescue
Rescue me
A man and a woman
Lost in each other's embrace
Star-crossed in time in a place
Far away
Innocent dreamers
Turning the wheels of chance
Searching to find romance
Forever
We will surely find
Love is for all time
(And it's) the mystery of love
How we go on and on forever
(And it's) the mystery of love
Only one heart can turn the key
Down through the history
Of love
Time is the one that holds
The answer
(And it's) the mystery of love
Oh, will it set me free
For all time
(And it's) the mystery of love
How we go on and on forever
(And it's) the mystery of love
Only one heart can turn the key
Down through the history
Of love
Time is the one that holds
The answer
(And it's) the mystery of love
How we go on and on forever
(And it's) the mystery of love
Only one heart can turn the key
Quote from: Taffy on November 01, 2011, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 31, 2011, 11:18:21 PM
of Course fine for US who can see this~ but not all who read this Board do~ do ever5 get to sence we Just chat amid ourselves~ :sigh:
I read a lot before I ever posted, so I wouldn't say so
HE is the LOVE, the Light in our hearts Unfolding~ :HeartThrob:
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 01, 2011, 01:32:39 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 01, 2011, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 31, 2011, 11:18:21 PM
of Course fine for US who can see this~ but not all who read this Board do~ do ever5 get to sence we Just chat amid ourselves~ :sigh:
QuoteI read a lot before I ever posted, so I wouldn't say so
do you account FOR ALL? :icon_flower:
That's beautiful, Beloved Servant. Is that a song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVNAO8ECVw
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 01, 2011, 01:48:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WVNAO8ECVw
wow. Thanks. Never heard that before.
OBEDIENCE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-GLnVxv3hA&feature=related
Quote from: Nathan on October 31, 2011, 09:57:31 PM
Men are as trees. Cursed is anything that hangs from men.
Lean not on your own understanding . . .it's cursed. Doctrines of men, religion and religious tradition . . .all things that hang from the trees of men.
It's also why there were so many things in the ark that were wood overlaid with Gold.
Everything is spiritual.
Rev 22:2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
These are trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, both the leaves and the fruit that hang on them are blessed and a blessing to all.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
No one 'enters' the city unless their robes are washed (thank you Jesus) and they are eating from the tree of life(walking from the spirit,walking in love, bearing the fruit of the spirit)- James 3:15-17- having forsaken the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...."For who is so blind as my servant?".
Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh. Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And
the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:12-18)
Rev 2:7 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'
I think Jesus is the tree of life that is in the Paradise of God- "Take and eat, this is my flesh, that is given for you".... " I am the bread of life that comes down from heaven"
Everything IS spiritual, even the physical and literal things that serve as shadows of the solid reality which is Christ, in whom are hid all the treasure of the wisdom and knowledge of God. But there is one sure way t know if we are really 'planted'- whether the 'incorruptible seed' within is becoming a 'tree of life' in our garden. Whether we have that solid reality is revealed in our communion, union, oneness.
If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have communion with each other and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin John 1:6
There are trees that are blessed and disciples who are trees and pillars upon which are hung the foundations of the city made without hands,........and they are in turn, branches in the Vine.
We can see what tree we are hanging on by whether or not we experience koinonea together, and the seed of righteousness that we sow in peace bears the fruit of righteousness. When the words we speak, as apples of gold set in leaves of silver, deliver life and healing to one another. Leaves for the healing of the nations grow on trees that are planted by the water of life, fed by a healing spirit :o)
How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers! But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, Which yields its fruit in its season And its leaf does not wither; And in whatever he does, he prospers.
(Psa 1:1-3)
Rev 22:2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
1-5 Then the Angel showed me Water-of-Life River, crystal bright. It flowed from the Throne of God and the Lamb, right down the middle of the street. The Tree of Life was planted on each side of the River (Message Translation)
1 Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life (New Living Translation)
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life (NIV)
Take a look at what this is saying . . .there is ONE street in the New Jerusalem . .not street(s) of Gold . . .just one street. But the thing that keeps popping up in all these translations is . . .even though it appears to say there's a tree on both sides of the river . . .it's not that at all. There are not two trees planted on each side of one river. It's ONE tree. So . . ."how" can you have "a" tree that's on TWO sides of A river?
Unless . . . .
The river is flowing "out" of the Tree. This tree of life is so large that it's roots expand to both banks and the river is flowing out of the tree. For me, this book . .. from Genesis to Revelation . . .and especially Revelation is not about God . . .it's about God IN MEN. Isn't that what "Emanuel" means? God WITH us?? So the characteristics of this tree are of a Godly nature, but it's still a picture of a tree . . .the one that was once cursed.
Remember in Genesis, God spoke to the serpent stating that UPON YOUR BELLY YOU SHALL GO . . .many argue what that serpent is, but for me, it's clearly the carnal nature of man. Because when Jesus shows up, I believe he purposefully reaches back to this passage in Genesis and reverses this curse. Instead of "upon your BELLY you shall go . . ." which isn't about our eating habits, but instead it's about the core of our inner nature . . .and dust being it's meat . .dust being flesh, carnality . . my flesh LOVES to dwell upon natural experiences. We really like to worry! Our flesh LOVES having others stroke it's ego . . .actually my ego and my flesh are the same thing. But Jesus reverses this by proclaiming, instead of being bound to thrive on dust . . .OUT OF YOUR BELLIES SHALL FLOW RIVERS OF LIVING WATER . . .
In that context, reread this verse in Revelation . . .the River is coming out of the BELLY of the tree. It's a WATER-OF-LIFE river. It's crystal clear . .purified . . .This river flowed directly from the Throne of God into the tree and out of it again. Does this not sound like the Peter experience that Jesus used as his cornerstone to build his church on? It's the channel of direct communication between God and man by way of inward revelation through intimate relationship with Jesus.
So for me, The throne is God, which includes Jesus . . .the river is the relationship between God and us . .the tree is us, the fruit is the manifestation of God's presence in us and it brings healing to the nations . . .within and without. And . . .the river of life flows "out" of it . . .just as Jesus said his living water does to us.
:icon_flower:
HIS Throne room is where HE PLACES THE CROWN, within our MIND~He very Tree of LIVING WATER[ Life] the very small Mustard seed that grew in the GARDEN[our Mind\soul renewed] which become a GREET TREE~ :icon_flower:
So Nathan are you saying the Tree of Life is man? And this tree was once cursed? Can you explain how you came to these conclusions?
Quote from: Nathan on November 01, 2011, 04:59:04 PM
Rev 22:2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
1-5 Then the Angel showed me Water-of-Life River, crystal bright. It flowed from the Throne of God and the Lamb, right down the middle of the street. The Tree of Life was planted on each side of the River (Message Translation)
1 Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life (New Living Translation)
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life (NIV)
Take a look at what this is saying . . .there is ONE street in the New Jerusalem . .not street(s) of Gold . . .just one street. But the thing that keeps popping up in all these translations is . . .even though it appears to say there's a tree on both sides of the river . . .it's not that at all. There are not two trees planted on each side of one river. It's ONE tree. So . . ."how" can you have "a" tree that's on TWO sides of A river?
The tree stands in the middle of a square.
The place of the Temple and where He was crucified were inside Eden. Geologically seen the spring that fed the Tempel complex can be a remainder of the ancient Eden rivers. Even a sort of geyser (the mist)
The Temple was a square. The Temple fast called Lebanon. Lebanon is a tree. Out of the Temple Holies of Holies flowed a river that filled LoF. My guess this is the same river.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg66042.html#msg66042
Quote from: shawn on November 01, 2011, 06:11:35 PM
So Nathan are you saying the Tree of Life is man? And this tree was once cursed? Can you explain how you came to these conclusions?
Psalm 1:3
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the streams of water, That bringeth forth its fruit in its season, Whose leaf also doth not wither; And whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Mark 8
23And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
24And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2011, 07:08:25 PM
Quote from: Nathan on November 01, 2011, 04:59:04 PM
Rev 22:2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
1-5 Then the Angel showed me Water-of-Life River, crystal bright. It flowed from the Throne of God and the Lamb, right down the middle of the street. The Tree of Life was planted on each side of the River (Message Translation)
1 Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life (New Living Translation)
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life (NIV)
Take a look at what this is saying . . .there is ONE street in the New Jerusalem . .not street(s) of Gold . . .just one street. But the thing that keeps popping up in all these translations is . . .even though it appears to say there's a tree on both sides of the river . . .it's not that at all. There are not two trees planted on each side of one river. It's ONE tree. So . . ."how" can you have "a" tree that's on TWO sides of A river?
The tree stands in the middle of a square.
The place of the Temple and where He was crucified were inside Eden. Geologically seen the spring that fed the Tempel complex can be a remainder of the ancient Eden rivers. Even a sort of geyser (the mist)
The Temple was a square. The Temple fast called Lebanon. Lebanon is a tree. Out of the Temple Holies of Holies flowed a river that filled LoF. My guess this is the same river.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg66042.html#msg66042
And then what? Say it's true . . . where does that lead us then? How can we take that and apply it to ourselves? How does this take one closer to the Father?
in the Holy city...shape of a cube[square] God and the Lamb are in the midst of it...and we be the fruit[offspring] of the eternal one and the descendants of Christ
O"WHAT A FAMILY TREE....for the name of the Father and the Lamb they share
Exactly! Natural reveals spiritual.
Quote from: sheila on November 01, 2011, 08:51:43 PM
in the Holy city...shape of a cube[square] God and the Lamb are in the midst of it...and we be the fruit[offspring] of the eternal one and the descendants of Christ
O"WHAT A FAMILY TREE....for the name of the Father and the Lamb they share
~ Zion A CITY made of GOLD~ Whom we are~ as NEW Jerusalem Lives within~ :HeartThrob:
How GREAT IS HIS NAME~Shalom
that square 'cube' of a city....encompasses all four corners that were scattered in heaven and all four corners that were scattered on earth....and
brings them into unity, 'oneness' of Christ and the Father.
Quote from: Nathan on November 01, 2011, 08:54:37 PM
Exactly! Natural reveals spiritual.
the Natural = The Outward revealing the spiritual , the Inner man~ :icon_flower:
We are HIS SPIRIT OF FIRE[ LOVE] ~
Quote from: sheila on November 01, 2011, 09:10:35 PM
that square 'cube' of a city....encompasses all four corners that were scattered in heaven and all four corners that were scattered on earth....and
brings them into unity, 'oneness' of Christ and the Father.
4 is an earthly Number# North south east and west~Fire Earth, water and air~ winter spring summer and Autumn~HIS LOVE EMCOMPASSES ALL~ for we are ONE :HeartThrob:
love...the perfect bond of union.....only God can make a family
Quote from: sheila on November 01, 2011, 09:26:37 PM
love...the perfect bond of union.....only God can make a family
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Nathan on November 01, 2011, 08:24:15 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2011, 07:08:25 PM
Quote from: Nathan on November 01, 2011, 04:59:04 PM
Rev 22:2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
1-5 Then the Angel showed me Water-of-Life River, crystal bright. It flowed from the Throne of God and the Lamb, right down the middle of the street. The Tree of Life was planted on each side of the River (Message Translation)
1 Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life (New Living Translation)
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life (NIV)
Take a look at what this is saying . . .there is ONE street in the New Jerusalem . .not street(s) of Gold . . .just one street. But the thing that keeps popping up in all these translations is . . .even though it appears to say there's a tree on both sides of the river . . .it's not that at all. There are not two trees planted on each side of one river. It's ONE tree. So . . ."how" can you have "a" tree that's on TWO sides of A river?
The tree stands in the middle of a square.
The place of the Temple and where He was crucified were inside Eden. Geologically seen the spring that fed the Tempel complex can be a remainder of the ancient Eden rivers. Even a sort of geyser (the mist)
The Temple was a square. The Temple fast called Lebanon. Lebanon is a tree. Out of the Temple Holies of Holies flowed a river that filled LoF. My guess this is the same river.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rev_222_the_cross_life_6276.msg66042.html#msg66042
And then what? Say it's true . . . where does that lead us then? How can we take that and apply it to ourselves? How does this take one closer to the Father?
The answer is so very obvious I must assume you are baiting a trap again.
It was already answered.
I read the revelation of Jesus mostly through the language of the rest of the scriptures....in the mouth of two or three witnesses etc, etc,. I have no problem with the idea of one tree from which the river flows. There are many possible applications of the prophetic images, some overlapping, some like an onion. I think it is clear that there are good trees(bearing good fruit) and trees that bear evil fruit. These trees, prophetically, on some level represent men, because that imagery is used so frequently by the prophets from Psalmist to our Lord. "He shall be as a tree".... "Behold the ax is laid to the root of the trees" etc., etc.
I think prophetic pictures of the sons of God(setting the whole creation free from futility into the glorious freedom of the children of God) as trees of righteousness, planted of the Lord(for those who He foerknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His son) and trees bearing fruit(for the seed that bears fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by them who make peace, blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God)) and leaves for the healing of the nations(a kingdom of priests unto God)- definitely applies.......but not to the exclusion of another view, or facet, in which Jesus- as the pattern son, firstborn of many brethren- is the ultimate tree of trees, Son of David, springing from the root of Jesse, the righteous Branch. I don't think prophetic imagery is restrictive, but rather, expansive.
There is a river that makes glad the city of God :o)
:cloud9: That's probably my favorite scripture, Nate......Let me share how He made me to see it......
We hear of people who say they were "standing on His Word for their healing", and many times they die. I asked Him why, and He showed me it was because they had not received a PROCEEDING WORD, ie. one that proceeds from the mouth of the Father (which is Spirit, as the Father is a Spirit) pertaining to their healing.
He has spoken it already as it was recorded by the scribes, but it's to be a PERSONAL WORD, that we have pressed in to get for ourselves, that brings life. Then, THAT WORD, mixed with faith, is what profits us. This is why it says works without faith is dead, or produces death, and faith without works is dead, or produces death and not life. Envision Peter on the water for an example of this in action.
It takes making an "apothecary" of the letter and the Spirit, but only the Spirit can direct the addition or subtraction of "ingredients" and in what "amounts" (only He has a just or righteous balance) for the holy incense (tried as by fire) so that the offering becomes as a sweet smelling savor unto the Lord. It is by THIS CLOUD (of "smoke") that we ascend, and are to meet Him in.
It takes His understanding of the letter, which can only come from the Spirit, to increase our stature of Him in us, Amen? Blessings....
Amen
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Today, if you hear my voice.
Jas 5:14-16 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
Take eat, this is my body.
If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have koinonea together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
Most of the functions of the Spirit work best in the context of the body/ fellowship in the light- gathering in the tabernacle, sharing the bread of presence. Romans 12, 1 Cor 12-14, Eph 4.
Their are less proceeding words because the body rarely gathers in the Spirit, or because the gathered ones do not "hear Today"- the lightnings that crackle from the bowl of coals(burning prophetic hearts) beneath the wings of the seraphim. The coals are scattered, the fire cool-lukewarm even. Not to much lightning(rhema/illumination) going on.
"If all prophesy, and an unbeliever or ungifted come in, then the secrets of their heart will be revealed(two edged sword- proceeding word) and they will fall down and acknowledge, 'Truly God is in your midst'". (1 Cor 14:2-25)
This verse describes the lightning, is just one manifesting the level of entrance and presence the gathering ought to have within the holy of holies, within the heavenly tabernacle. The veil is open by the "new and living way", but unless we get "in" together on a regular basis, the body whithers, the manifestation of the Spirit wains, and their is difficulty obtaining the blessings of our deliverance, in a general way.
Let the one who has ears, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.
1Co 12:7-11 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
He will not share His glory with any flesh(individualism) but He will pour out of His Spirit on "all flesh"(the body).
The Lord "worked with them, confirming the word".
Whenever "the word" is living and active, He confirms it, but we cannot always get to that word on our own- He set up the body so that we need one another, so that we need "koinonea" to know "full joy".
Thirty seven years ago when the Lord found me I went out and bought my first Bible, the same one I use today regularly.
It is a black leather Thompson Chain KJV. On the front I had this put on it in gold letters.
My first name, middle initial, last name and Matt.4:4
That verse was the very first Word the Lord gave me[before I bought it] so " I felt I" should put in on my Bible, hoping to any one who may see it would know how I would walk.
Just thought I would post, that verse is not foreign to me. :HeartThrob: :cloud9: :icon_flower: :happy3: