Acts 3:21-24 (Young's Literal Translation)
21whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.
22`For Moses, indeed, unto the fathers said -- A prophet to you shall the Lord your God raise up out of your brethren, like to me; him shall ye hear in all things, as many as he may speak unto you;
23and it shall be, every soul that may not hear that prophet shall be utterly destroyed out of the people;
24and also all the prophets from Samuel and those following in order, as many as spake, did also foretell of these days.
***
Does anybody know what this is speaking of?
Do you think it's talking about the Jews that were exterminated in 70 AD for ignoring Jesus' warnings?
PS: It should be kept in mind that the "soul" does not equal a person's spirit. (The spirit is what goes to God when one dies.)
:cloud9: Notice that it says the SOUL that does not hear the voice of this prophet (which is the Spirit of the risen Christ/Holy Ghost) will be destroyed out from among the people.
Conversely, if we hear and obey Him which is what the faith He is looking for is, we are promised that our days will be long upon the earth. Simply put, rebellion kills. Blessings....
QuoteFor Moses, indeed, unto the fathers said -- A prophet to you shall the Lord your God raise up out of your brethren, like to me; him shall ye hear in all things, as many as he may speak unto you;
23and it shall be, every soul that may not hear that prophet shall be utterly destroyed out of the people;
Moses told the fathers... this refering to the law and the jews who needed to;
Every soul who may not hear..... listen to the law
Simply put, Moses commanded the jews to listen to the words of god otherwise they would be destroyed for faliure. Jesus has come and now because of His obedience and His faithfulness we have been raised up from that destruction.
A jew is not one outwardly but inwardly. Anyone who rejects Christ is a gentile (regardless of their nationality) and are therefore cut off from the people. Some people are outside the gates of New Jerusalem (the bride), and are therefore destroyed away from the people (ie rooted out). That is why heaven receives Jesus UNTIL the times of the restitution of all, because the Bride tells them to come and drink all those who thirst..
Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2009, 02:27:27 AM
A jew is not one outwardly but inwardly. Anyone who rejects Christ is a gentile (regardless of their nationality) and are therefore cut off from the people. Some people are outside the gates of New Jerusalem (the bride), and are therefore destroyed away from the people (ie rooted out). That is why heaven receives Jesus UNTIL the times of the restitution of all, because the Bride tells them to come and drink all those who thirst..
That's very cool! I never realized that. That would also agree with 1 Cor. 15:22-28 when Christ restores all things by subjecting His enemies and then handing over His reign to the Father.
Yup and it also agrees with this:
1 Cor 6:2-3
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
Romans 8:18-21
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2009, 06:42:53 PM
Yup and it also agrees with this:
1 Cor 6:2-3
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
Romans 8:18-21
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
I've wondered about 1 Cor 6:2-3. How do you think we'll judge them?
Because, if it was me, I'd just say: off to chastisement for those that need it, and anybody else, who doesn't, they can join with God. (I'd assume the large majority of mankind, if not all of mankind would need the chastisement, but I'm just making the point.)
Also, in Romans 18-21: how can we assume that the creature is the rest of the people in world? To me, it seems to be talking about physical creation being freed from decay and corruption. I mean, I'd love this to mean all people in the creation too, but if you had any further information, that'd be awesome. :)
Quote from: Tim B on August 28, 2009, 07:07:59 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2009, 06:42:53 PM
Yup and it also agrees with this:
1 Cor 6:2-3
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
Romans 8:18-21
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
I've wondered about 1 Cor 6:2-3. How do you think we'll judge them?
Because, if it was me, I'd just say: off to chastisement for those that need it, and anybody else, who doesn't, they can join with God. (I'd assume the large majority of mankind, if not all of mankind would need the chastisement, but I'm just making the point.)
Well, the thing is: it won't be you. It will be Christ THROUGH you. In our current state, we have not experienced just how ONE we will be, because the purchased possession has not been "redeemed" meaning like when someone retrieves the prize that they won (ie to redeem a lottery winning). Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, so as long as we have this flesh we will not be perfected.
Christ is appointed as the judge and we are appointed as his body. All things flow from the Father, through the Son, to and through the Body. Nobody in the body will be doing anything independent of that order.
QuoteAlso, in Romans 18-21: how can we assume that the creature is the rest of the people in world? To me, it seems to be talking about physical creation being freed from decay and corruption. I mean, I'd love this to mean all people in the creation too, but if you had any further information, that'd be awesome. :)
I think because you quoted it earlier: "That would also agree with 1 Cor. 15:22-28 when Christ restores all things by subjecting His enemies and then handing over His reign to the Father."
Regarding Romans 8, a good question to ask is "Since Paul is talking about creation, what human being is NOT part of creation?" The exclusions to not come from the text. They come from those who already think that not everyone will be saved. The text itself simply says that creation will be freed from bondage and no exceptions are provided. Are humans NOT part of creation? See? The exception comes not from the inspired text, but from doctrinal beliefs preconceived from other places in the Bible. This is why, when it comes to 1 Cor. 15:22-28 you will get arguments that try to unravel what it clearly says, yet when you ask for a clear quote that simply says "not everyone will eventually be saved" they cannot find it. So they argue against plain reading using assumptions drawn from other parts of the Bible which SEEM to SUGGEST that not everyone will eventually be saved.
If there was a passage of scripture that actually literally said that not everyone will ever be saved, THEN that could be used to limit Romans 8. Absent of such a clear statement, gainsaysers will look at a parable and ASSUME that it MEANS that not everyone will be saved, and then they use THAT assumption as a limiter to Romans 8's "creation." Yet such a passage of scripture would clearly oppose 1 Corinthians 15 which does the polar opposite: it guarantees salvation for everyone and EXPLICITLY says so, among a context that includes "all who die in Adam."
The plain reading of Romans 8 is on the side of the UR believer. Limitations depend on the INTERPRETATIONS of the ET believer.
QuoteQuote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 07:27:27 PM
A jew is not one outwardly but inwardly. Anyone who rejects Christ is a gentile (regardless of their nationality) and are therefore cut off from the people. Some people are outside the gates of New Jerusalem (the bride), and are therefore destroyed away from the people (ie rooted out). That is why heaven receives Jesus UNTIL the times of the restitution of all, because the Bride tells them to come and drink all those who thirst..
That's very cool! I never realized that. That would also agree with 1 Cor. 15:22-28 when Christ restores all things by subjecting His enemies and then handing over His reign to the Father.
Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
There is no longer Jew or Gentile, read ephesians chapter 2. Jesus restructured the way of things. All people are included into the sacrifice ALREADY! THEY ARE ALL INCLUDED!!!
Yes they are all included in the sacrifice. They are all reconciled to God. All they need now is a circumcision of the heart, a deliverance from bondage to death in which they walk.
You seriously work really hard to seperate yourself from the "unbelievers" don't you. Somehow you need to be set apart, you need for some reason to be above them.
Listen, because of Jesus all people are the same, we are all going from glory to glory, the glory of the law to the glory of grace... we are all going along the road. I find it interesting that on this site of inclusion the majority of your talks are about how everybody is excluded... everbody except universalists.
QuoteYes they are all included in the sacrifice. They are all reconciled to God. All they need now is a circumcision of the heart, a deliverance from bondage to death in which they walk.
-Seth
They don't need anything! Jesus was is and will always be everything anybody will ever need. They just haven't heard, God reveals to those of which He desires, if someone hasn't heard it's becuase God hasn't revealed it, not becuase they aren't in it.
Colossians 2:10"and
in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all (Z)rule and authority;
11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of (AB)the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12having been (AC)buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also (AD)raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who (AE)raised Him from the dead.
13When you were (AF)dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He (AG)made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
1 Corinthians 1:30 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
Quote from: Dallas on August 29, 2009, 06:41:57 PM
You seriously work really hard to seperate yourself from the "unbelievers" don't you. Somehow you need to be set apart, you need for some reason to be above them.
Why do you attack my motives?
QuoteListen, because of Jesus all people are the same, we are all going from glory to glory, the glory of the law to the glory of grace... we are all going along the road. I find it interesting that on this site of inclusion the majority of your talks are about how everybody is excluded... everbody except universalists.
I just said everyone was included. I said: "Yes they are all included in the sacrifice. "
QuoteThey don't need anything! Jesus was is and will always be everything anybody will ever need. They just haven't heard
You said they don't need anything. Then you said "they haven't heard." That means they need to hear. You think the prostitute needs nothing? She doesn't need actual deliverance from her situation?
If you say "yes" then you recognize that she does need something. That is why it is called the circumcision of the heart by the Spirit.
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him
through the death of his Son, how much more,
having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!Here is how:
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to SALVATION THROUGH
sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Telling me that sinners don't need anything is like telling a man trapped under the wheels of a semi that he doesn't need anything. I hope you don't think that reconciliation and salvation are the same thing.
Let me ask you... before you were aware of what Jesus did you had different behaviour right?
Since you have become more aware of what he has done, what He did change? His work hadn't changed right, the cross is the cross... it was you who changed.
No, the fullness of all things is complete in Him. Just as you came to be aware you were changed by the understanding that because of Him...
If you want to argue symantics go ahead....
Paul taught, That everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved, how can they call if they don't know...
Just because they don't know doesn't mean they aren't covered by all things.
You've been called and still think you aren't covered in all things. It's no wonder that you preach a message of works excluding people.
All people are saved, does that mean everyone is aware, of course not, so how then can they benifit from what has taken place. Thus the real need for eveangalism. Not to stop people from sinning of get them purified or anything, Jesus delt with all that... we preach so that they can recieve permission to be saved because they are... not because they are out and need to get in.... we preach because they are in and need to know that they are in.
Quote from: Dallas on August 29, 2009, 08:53:49 PM
Let me ask you... before you were aware of what Jesus did you had different behaviour right?
Since you have become more aware of what he has done, what He did change? His work hadn't changed right, the cross is the cross... it was you who changed.
That's my point Dallas.
Quote
Paul taught, That everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved, how can they call if they don't know...
Just because they don't know doesn't mean they aren't covered by all things.
It's hard to believe that you think you are arguing against something I said. Everyone is reconciled, NOT everyone is saved. They are saved from sin when they call upon the name, and as you said, how can you be saved if you don't know? Because you think distinguishing terms amounts to "arguing semantics" you have no idea why Paul said "if we were reconciled when we were enemies, how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved through his life." You seem to think that the clear difference drawn there is nothing but a matter of semantics. That is why you claim people are saved when they call upon the name, yet they are already saved. No, they are reconciled, THEN saved. Guess what, that's not semantics. It's what the Bible says!
QuoteYou've been called and still think you aren't covered in all things. It's no wonder that you preach a message of works excluding people.
What? You just said: "Paul taught, That everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved, how can they call if they don't know..." Hello? That is exactly what I said. Preaching a message of works? The whole point of salvation is to BE ..... SAVED......FROM......SIN.
Philippians 2:12-13
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it
is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Since you seem to have such a problem with "works" do you have a problem with God being within people to will and to work?
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
unto good works, which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.
The whole point of being saved from sin is to be saved from evil works. Was Paul saved from being a murderer? How? Because Jesus caused him to STOP being a murderer. Paul changed his works by the power of the spirit. I never said that works BRING salvation. I said that salvation CHANGES works.
QuoteAll people are saved
Sorry bro. As you said "people are saved when they call upon the name of the lord."
People are not saved from sin until they are released from slavery to it. Everyone is reconciled. If you didn't think it was just a matter of semantics - the clear distinctions drawn by Paul himself regarding reconciliation leading to salvation - you wouldn't contradict yourself by claiming that people are saved when they call upon the name, yet already are saved. :doh:
Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2009, 07:29:45 PM
Regarding Romans 8, a good question to ask is "Since Paul is talking about creation, what human being is NOT part of creation?" The exclusions to not come from the text. They come from those who already think that not everyone will be saved. The text itself simply says that creation will be freed from bondage and no exceptions are provided. Are humans NOT part of creation? See? The exception comes not from the inspired text, but from doctrinal beliefs preconceived from other places in the Bible. This is why, when it comes to 1 Cor. 15:22-28 you will get arguments that try to unravel what it clearly says, yet when you ask for a clear quote that simply says "not everyone will eventually be saved" they cannot find it. So they argue against plain reading using assumptions drawn from other parts of the Bible which SEEM to SUGGEST that not everyone will eventually be saved.
If there was a passage of scripture that actually literally said that not everyone will ever be saved, THEN that could be used to limit Romans 8. Absent of such a clear statement, gainsaysers will look at a parable and ASSUME that it MEANS that not everyone will be saved, and then they use THAT assumption as a limiter to Romans 8's "creation." Yet such a passage of scripture would clearly oppose 1 Corinthians 15 which does the polar opposite: it guarantees salvation for everyone and EXPLICITLY says so, among a context that includes "all who die in Adam."
The plain reading of Romans 8 is on the side of the UR believer. Limitations depend on the INTERPRETATIONS of the ET believer.
I like what you're saying here Seth. Good post! :thumbsup: Thanks for the reply. :bigGrin:
"The whole point of being saved from sin is to be saved from evil works." - Seth
This is why you don't get it. You are a work, law based thinker. You are trying to be saved from bad behaviour.
You don't even understand what being saved is about. You honestly think all of creation is to deal with some bad behaivour? Well I hope for you one day you won't do anything that doesn't end out not being anything but a profitable situation... eventhough it will never come.
About semantics... I never said people get saved by confession... apparently you do, better run out quickly and get everyone to mouth the sinner's prayer. You got to read the whole area buddy. I thought you were up on etiqutte enough to know that when scripture is quuoted it inferrs you read the whole area.
When Paul teaches you confess, but first comes the unvieling to your heart, the heart's veil is lifted by Jesus, then the heart see what He did and then from the heart cries the truth, Jesus is Lord....
But how can you tell someone they are included but are held off until they do something. You can because you believe in salvation through confession, not salvation through Jesus.
Oh, by the way, being saved... is about being restored to the image and likeness of God, walking with Him and being included in all He does, enjoying the life of God.... all while hear on this planet.
So don't peddle your work ladden salvation to me.
Yes all were reconcilled, and all are saved... right now!
"For it is this that we labour and strive, for we have fixed our confidence in the one and living God, Who is the saviour of the whole world, especially of believers." 1 Timothy 4:10
Every one is saved, not everyone has come into the especially... Paul taught this. Maybe you should welcome some underserved favor... instead of worrying about some bad behaviour that ends with the moment.
POW! - BAMM!
DALLAS!
That was awesome
Quote from: Dallas on September 07, 2009, 06:08:25 AM
"The whole point of being saved from sin is to be saved from evil works." - Seth
This is why you don't get it. You are a work, law based thinker. You are trying to be saved from bad behaviour.
You don't even understand what being saved is about. You honestly think all of creation is to deal with some bad behaivour? Well I hope for you one day you won't do anything that doesn't end out not being anything but a profitable situation... eventhough it will never come.
I am not thinking about the Law of Moses. That is what you clearly do not understand. I am talking about the law of liberty in Christ. You obviously are under the illusion that imprisoned people are free and that sick people are well. That is what makes your doctrine such a willing cripple. I am talking about liberty FROM sickness.
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people
from (apo - away from) their sins (hamartia).
We aren't just talking about "bad behavior." We are talking about the flesh. Jesus intends to save people AWAY from their sin. Here are some scriptures you will most likely have a HUGE problem with:
Phi 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,
work out (outwardly work) YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling,
for it is God WHO WORKS IN YOU, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us,
that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
QuoteAbout semantics... I never said people get saved by confession... apparently you do, better run out quickly and get everyone to mouth the sinner's prayer. You got to read the whole area buddy. I thought you were up on etiqutte enough to know that when scripture is quuoted it inferrs you read the whole area.
Sinner's prayer? When did I mention a sinner's prayer?
QuoteWhen Paul teaches you confess, but first comes the unvieling to your heart, the heart's veil is lifted by Jesus, then the heart see what He did and then from the heart cries the truth, Jesus is Lord....
But how can you tell someone they are included but are held off until they do something. You can because you believe in salvation through confession, not salvation through Jesus.
I believe in salvation through Jesus. I never said anyone was "held off" and I did confirm that everyone IS included in the sacrifice. What I am saying is that what people need is salvation FROM sin. The Bible TEACHES ME that. It also teaches me that salvation from sin has a direct changing power from evil works (like genocide, rape and incest) to good works that come from love (like healing, kindness and feeding the poor).
If you bring the ministry of reconciliation to a murderer, and he says "great thanks." Then continues to murder people, then that person has not yet been saved from the DEATH in which they both work and walk in.
Salvation from evil works is TO THE BENEFIT of the one who walks in them so that they can have a better life. Proof:Rom 6:3-9
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so
we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS of his death, we shall be also in the LIKENESS of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,
that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth (now watch closely)
WE....SHOULD.....NOT.....SERVE.....SIN. (keep watching)
For he that is dead
IS....FREED.....FROM....SIN.
Do you have a problem with any of that?
QuoteOh, by the way, being saved... is about being restored to the image and likeness of God, walking with Him and being included in all He does, enjoying the life of God.... all while hear on this planet.
REALLY? YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT! Thank you Dallas. Thank you for REPEATING MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!
Being saved "is about being RESTORED to
the image and
likeness of God,
walking with Him and
being included in all his ways,
enjoying the life of God all while here on this planet."
Wow. You finally get it.
That's why I repeat the scripture themselves:
Titus 2:11-14
For the
grace of God t
hat bringeth salvation (now, remember what you just said about salvation) hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people,
ZEALOUS..... OF...... GOOD.... WORKS.
Do you have a problem with that?
QuoteSo don't peddle your work ladden salvation to me.
Work laden salvation? You obviously have no use for being "zealous of good works." And you are apparently clueless as to why the Gospel is indeed about replacing evil works with good ones, which is why God is looking for a "peculiar people zealous" for those good works.
You apparently are under some belief that the CONVERSION of a MURDERER to a HEALER is somehow beside the point. But the fact is when someone works healing rather than murder, it reveals how salvation CHANGES works from evil to good.
QuoteYes all were reconcilled, and all are saved... right now!
Sorry "buddy." You don't know the scriptures. All are reconciled by his death, and HOW MUCH MORE SO, having been reconciled shall we be saved BY HIS LIFE. That is a direct quote. Look it up.
Your definition of salvation is this:
1) being restored to the image and likeness of God
2) walking with Him
3) being included in all his ways
4) enjoying the life of God
Now, when a man rapes a child is he1) reflecting "the image and likeness of God" as he is raping the child?
2) is he "walking with God" as he is raping the child?
3) is he walking in "the way of God" as he is raping the child?
4) is he "enjoying the life of God" as he is raping the child?
NO!You want to know why?
BECAUSE HE HAS NOT YET BEEN SAVED FROM BEING A RAPIST! The point of the gospel is this:
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO.............. GOOD.......... WORKS, which God hath before ordained THAT.......WE.........SHOULD........WALK.........IN........THEM.Clear enough for you?
Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (now, again, remember what you just said about salvation) hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, DENYING UNGODLINESS and WORLDLY LUSTS, we should SOBERLY, RIGHTOUSLY and GODLY, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people,ZEALOUS........OF........GOOD.......WORKS.Is that clear enough for you? Do you have a problem with those scriptures?
Go into a hospital and tell everyone with neumonia that they don't actually have it.
Tell the cancer patients, great news, you never had cancer in the first place!
Tell all the bleeding gunshot victims that their wounds aren't actually there.
That's how foolish it is to say that people are already saved from sin while still in slavery to it. Wake up, Dallas.
"That's how foolish it is to say that people are already saved from sin while still in slavery to it."
(http://digitalhooligans.com/blog/uploaded_images/serie_kapow-728628.jpg)
i'm not in slavery to sin.
i serve only one Master.
The Lord Jesus Christ.
Quote from: peacemaker on September 09, 2009, 07:53:47 AM
"That's how foolish it is to say that people are already saved from sin while still in slavery to it."
(http://digitalhooligans.com/blog/uploaded_images/serie_kapow-728628.jpg)
LOL! Between you and Beloved Servant, I feel like I am in a Batman episode. :winkgrin:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2009, 06:43:59 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on September 09, 2009, 07:53:47 AM
"That's how foolish it is to say that people are already saved from sin while still in slavery to it."
(http://digitalhooligans.com/blog/uploaded_images/serie_kapow-728628.jpg)
LOL! Between you and Beloved Servant, I feel like I am in a Batman episode. :winkgrin:
:HeartThrob:
High above the City a shaft of light slices through the darkness.
Holy smoke, Batman!
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof."
Amen peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on September 10, 2009, 09:07:06 AM
High above the City a shaft of light slices through the darkness.
Holy smoke, Batman!
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof."
LOL :laughing7:
Could it be that perhaps it's more of a personality clash we're experiencing here rather than a blatant misinterpretation? I can see that what Jesus did on the cross did indeed "reconcile", or "redeem" me back to the Father. And I can also see that even though I may not accept Jesus into my heart, this decision will not affect my final destination due to what Jesus did on the cross. So in that sense, I'm saved.
But because I have "not" accepted Christ in my heart, I have disabled myself from walking in the power that frees me from the sin I'm bound in. My decision making has consequences. My final destination is the same, but my current effectiveness in reproducing Christ into others is mortally affected. For me, sin isn't the issue. Sin is only the symptom of the problem. What Jesus actually did on the cross was, he reversed the curse. But sin isn't the curse. Again, it's only a symptom that the curse exists. Or, you can say sin is the evidence. I'm missing the mark (definition of sin) because I'm still influenced by the curse.
What then is the curse?
For me, it's spiritual order. I am a spirit that has a soul, that lives in this body. That is the order I was created to be. I'm to be led by the spirit, while living in this physical realm. I operate through my soul for the purpose of navigating through this physical realm, and my body is the vehicle through which my spirit manifests and my soul navigates.
Where's the disorder in that? It came in the garden when Adam (spirit) received from Eve (soul) the fruit of carnality. Soul took the dominant role in man and that act is what brought on the curse. We were not meant to walk according to our minds. And as such, we walk in the curse of that order.
But then Jesus appears in this cursed order, and he reverses it back. He reenables man to once again, walk in the spirit. It's not about saving me from sin or hell as much as it is saving me from the power of my "self" and the order of that "self" ruling over my spirit.
The cross enabled man to be reconciled back to the Father. The relationship that the First Adam severed, the last Adam healed. He is literally the bridge between flesh and spirit. The two become one, as we are drawn near it. (lyrics from a song we sing in church). In other words "through" Christ, our spirit and mind can unite as one. We can become married once again. Marriage is to induce reproduction.
On the other end, there are people who accept Christ in their hearts and are still bound by natural addictions. How can that be? Easy. They are reconciled, as is the whole world. Their spirit is redeemed, but the body . . .the physical body still is bound by natural laws. I still get a cold. I could still get hit by a car. Accepting Christ into my heart doesn't change any of that. As long as we are in these vehicles of flesh, we will always be at risk of being afflicted with natural, physical afflictions.
Being reconciled to God does not keep me from getting the mumps. Being saved doesn't keep me from falling off the roof as I clean my eve spouts. This body is still governed by gravity and other natural laws. My inner man can definitely have an influence on many natural afflictions . . .like worrying can actually create ulcers and so forth, but as long as I am in this body of flesh, I will always be exposed to both the sun and the rain in this realm.
QuoteBut then Jesus appears in this cursed order, and he reverses it back. He reenables man to once again, walk in the spirit. It's not about saving me from sin or hell as much as it is saving me from the power of my "self" and the order of that "self" ruling over my spirit.
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS:
for he shall save his people from (Gk apo - away from) their sin.
Rom 6:3-9
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS of his death, we shall be also in the LIKENESS of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Sigh . . . . are you perfect Seth? Since you asked Jesus in your heart, have you stopped making mistakes? Have you been right "every" time with "every" thing? Do you no longer need to make apologies for misunderstandings? For offenses? Have you ever come to a place in Christ where you no longer feel the need or desire to "defend" yourself? Or to even use Scripture to "prove" your rightness?
QuoteCould it be that perhaps it's more of a personality clash we're experiencing here rather than a blatant misinterpretation? I can see that what Jesus did on the cross did indeed "reconcile", or "redeem" me back to the Father. And I can also see that even though I may not accept Jesus into my heart, this decision will not affect my final destination due to what Jesus did on the cross. So in that sense, I'm saved.
No brother, in that sense you are reconciled. Salvation does not happen through Christ's death but by his life (which is the death OF death). Reconciliation is the groundwork for salvation.
QuoteSigh . . . . are you perfect Seth? Since you asked Jesus in your heart, have you stopped making mistakes? Have you been right "every" time with "every" thing? Do you no longer need to make apologies for misunderstandings? For offenses? Have you ever come to a place in Christ where you no longer feel the need or desire to "defend" yourself? Or to even use Scripture to "prove" your rightness?
Ask both Cardinal and WillieH. I have apogized to them from a heartflelt place for things I shouldn't have said. So, no I am not perfect. Being delivered from slavery to sin, is not the same as being already perfect. I am not. Salvation from sin is a LIFE process which we undergo always according to the teaching and chastisement of the Spirit.
I have indeed been delivered from some really bad things though, that I couldn't stop doing before and that I begged the Lord to help me with...
But what I cannot understand is why, when you say "it's not about saving me from sin" and I post a scripture which says that Jesus (Jehovah saves) is named Jesus BECAUSE he will save people from sin, the response I get is a question about my character.
Then why are you using Scripture against me, when there seems to also be some misalignments in you?
I never stated that sin isn't removed by Christ. all I said was, sin isn't the source of the problem. But I'll not be attempting to try to directly explain what I see to you as you seem to be quick to use your sword to dissect another rather than apply it inwardly to one's "self".
It's not my sword, and I didn't use it "against" you. All I did was post a scripture which did the speaking. Amazing.
If you looked closely you would see that the scriptures I posted SUPPORT what you said when you said: "as much as it is saving me from the power of my "self" and the order of that "self" ruling over my spirit." Romans 6 proves that statement to be TRUE. But it also shows that being saved from the power of "self" IS being saved from sin.
If someone told me that "it's not about being saved from sin", but the power of self, that would ring to me as being very confusing, because what you are describing IS salvation from sin. That is why I say I am not using scripture AGAINST you, because the scripture is FOR you.
I just don't see why posting a scripture results not in more unity, but in questioning my character and motive?
Perhaps it's as I mentioned earlier about personality clashes. That seems to have been what was going on between you and another, so when I posted what I did, and all you posted was a verse, it gave the appearance that the verse you chose would conflict with what I said beings I just stated that our emphasis of "sin" isn't the problem as much as the alignment "within" us is the culprit.
That combined with the fact that you really didn't make any attempt to smooth things over. You simply reitterated what you did, which was post a verse . .which only proved my point in that you "posted" it for "others" to read . . .
Look, I don't want to get caught up in these sparring matches. I've nothing against you. In fact, my whole intent was to agree with you in the idea between reconciling and being saved . . but even then, you won't let one agree with you without picking apart the very attempt.
I guess the bottom line is . . .what is worse, that I would consider overlaying "saved" in the place of "reconcile" in the attempt to try to see from another's point of view, or not wanting to budge from the very idea that "saved" and "reconcile" have different meanings regardless of any attempt to agree through another's eyes. I was leaning toward the former.
It's all good Nathan.
You said that you were posting to agree with what I said, yet what I was saying is that we are meant to be saved from sin. Right? That was my point. So when you said that being saved from sin is not what it was about, it was a head slapper. I was wondering how someone could say that when the Bible literally says that being saved from sin IS what it is all about.
Do you see how I could see that and wonder how that was supposed to be in agreement? Not agreeing with me is fine. The personality conflict would not be in that Dallas disagreed with me, but in labeling me a "You are a work, law based thinker." and saying "You are trying to be saved from bad behaviour." (as if that is bad) Then he goes on to say "You don't even understand what being saved is about. " (really, I believe what Jesus says about it). He goes on to suggest that I do not believe in salvation through Jesus and that I shouldn't "So don't peddle your work ladden salvation to me." all these accusations etc etc etc...
So I post scriptures to show that I base my beliefs on what the Bible says. Since there is a marked distinction between reconciliation and salvation, then it will come through in what I say in the conversation. The Bible shows the difference so I acknowledge the difference. If that puts me in disagreement, so what? My praise is not of men. When people do that, they get accused of playing semantics, or using scripture against people, or all kinds of things having nothing to do with what the posted scripture SAYS.
So you say some good things in your post. But you also say that it isn't about being saved from sin. Sorry brother. That is not right. The scripture literally, and verbatim states the opposite. This is a conversation about salvation. Don't you think what the scripture says about it is viable and should be posted? And if I do that, does it mean I am using it against you? C'mon man. You joined this conversation. Nobody forced you. You said something that I believed was both supported and simultaniously not supported by those scriptures.
I posted a scripture and I don't apologize for that.
Not looking for an apology. I see it differently. It's not worth arguing over.
I see that so much of what is called "The Church" is really Mystery Babylon, the mother of harlots. What many think when they hear what I just said is that many who claim Christ as theirs believe false doctrines. That is based on an assumption that to be able to read what men have called the New Testament is what it means to be a Christian. That is not central to what I'm saying, though I'll certainly agree many involved with the Christian religion are deceived, even about fundamentals, things called "first principles," (AV) or, "the rudimentary elements of the oracles of God" (CLT) in the book of Hebrews (5:12.) What is so important to recognize is that many, if not most, gatherings of believers are NOT as a many membered new creation man, every member participating under the headship of Christ. They have other mediators and are led of men rather than the Spirit. They gather as enabling audiences for a ritual or a professional lecturer. There is so little experience of koinia which is corporate life or, "community;" while, instead, the foremost experience taught is individual, my lone self's salvation. The Church or Eclessia as God's woman, something distinct from God or the individual followers, is hardly even mentioned, much less does it occupy the central place in the worldview of most "believers," even though it is central to God's purposes.
I say that as introduction to what I want to inject into this conversation. I'm very frustrated with the kind of thing with which Carlton Pierson has become identified because he initially ran well and we wanted so much to be in agreement with him. "Salvation belongs to the LORD" and it is His work of transformation. We are changed by His Spirit from Adamic creatures to partakers of the Divine nature. A specimen of what is to occur when we meet is described in the letter of 1 Corinthians: "What, then, is it, brethren? Whenever you may be coming together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a language, has a translation. Let all occur to edification." (12:26, CLT) It is for each of us to function. But when someone lives unrepentant in things God hates we are failing our responsibility to them, God and one another if we allow them to participate as if they were brethren. "Withour holiness no man shall see the Lord." A controversy of our times is whether homosexuality is still a sin for those whose Master is the God of the Bible. What those who practise non participatory meetings with a mass or a sermon should do is not mine to say; but, I can assure you that in our meetings, those who are unrepentantly practicing that lifestyle have no part in what we do. They will not lay hands on and prophecy over us and our children. If that needs further explanation for some of you who are better acquainted with Scripture and following this thread I am in doubt of your own place, whether you be of God or not.
I think this sufficiently delineates the particulars of this controversy. Pierson is the devil's poster child for blind evangelicals to try to play "Pin the Tail on the Donkey." This is one of the foremost false objections to the wonder of the love of God rising within us who know that love is to the uttermost. It appears for now to be a trick to divert many from the truth of the salvation of all by degrading the message of the gospel, "...bartering the grace of our God for wantonness," (Jude 4, CLT) or, as another translation says it, "...as an excuse for sexual freedom." (GW)
1 Corintians 6:9-11, (CLT)...
9 Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; no revilers, no extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom.
11 And some of you were these, but you are bathed off, but you are hallowed, but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God.
Quote from: Nathan on September 10, 2009, 11:17:50 PM
Could it be that perhaps it's more of a personality clash we're experiencing here rather than a blatant misinterpretation? I can see that what Jesus did on the cross did indeed "reconcile", or "redeem" me back to the Father.
To avoid more personality clashes I'll just post a link.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6363.msg67180#msg67180
Quote from: reFORMer on September 11, 2009, 06:52:28 AM
I see that so much of what is called "The Church" is really Mystery Babylon, the mother of harlots. What many think when they hear what I just said is that many who claim Christ as theirs believe false doctrines. That is based on an assumption that to be able to read what men have called the New Testament is what it means to be a Christian. That is not central to what I'm saying, though I'll certainly agree many involved with the Christian religion are deceived, even about fundamentals, things called "first principles," (AV) or, "the rudimentary elements of the oracles of God" (CLT) in the book of Hebrews (5:12.) What is so important to recognize is that many, if not most, gatherings of believers are NOT as a many membered new creation man, every member participating under the headship of Christ. They have other mediators and are led of men rather than the Spirit. They gather as enabling audiences for a ritual or a professional lecturer. There is so little experience of koinia which is corporate life or, "community;" while, instead, the foremost experience taught is individual, my lone self's salvation. The Church or Eclessia as God's woman, something distinct from God or the individual followers, is hardly even mentioned, much less does it occupy the central place in the worldview of most "believers," even though it is central to God's purposes.
I say that as introduction to what I want to inject into this conversation. I'm very frustrated with the kind of thing with which Carlton Pierson has become identified because he initially ran well and we wanted so much to be in agreement with him. "Salvation belongs to the LORD" and it is His work of transformation. We are changed by His Spirit from Adamic creatures to partakers of the Divine nature. A specimen of what is to occur when we meet is described in the letter of 1 Corinthians: "What, then, is it, brethren? Whenever you may be coming together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a language, has a translation. Let all occur to edification." (12:26, CLT) It is for each of us to function. But when someone lives unrepentant in things God hates we are failing our responsibility to them, God and one another if we allow them to participate as if they were brethren. "Withour holiness no man shall see the Lord." A controversy of our times is whether homosexuality is still a sin for those whose Master is the God of the Bible. What those who practise non participatory meetings with a mass or a sermon should do is not mine to say; but, I can assure you that in our meetings, those who are unrepentantly practicing that lifestyle have no part in what we do. They will not lay hands on and prophecy over us and our children. If that needs further explanation for some of you who are better acquainted with Scripture and following this thread I am in doubt of your own place, whether you be of God or not.
I think this sufficiently delineates the particulars of this controversy. Pierson is the devil's poster child for blind evangelicals to try to play "Pin the Tail on the Donkey." This is one of the foremost false objections to the wonder of the love of God rising within us who know that love is to the uttermost. It appears for now to be a trick to divert many from the truth of the salvation of all by degrading the message of the gospel, "...bartering the grace of our God for wantonness," (Jude 4, CLT) or, as another translation says it, "...as an excuse for sexual freedom." (GW)
1 Corintians 6:9-11, (CLT)...
9 Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; no revilers, no extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom.
11 And some of you were these, but you are bathed off, but you are hallowed, but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God.
That was powerful. Thank you for that word. :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2009, 07:48:43 AM
Quote from: Nathan on September 10, 2009, 11:17:50 PM
Could it be that perhaps it's more of a personality clash we're experiencing here rather than a blatant misinterpretation? I can see that what Jesus did on the cross did indeed "reconcile", or "redeem" me back to the Father.
To avoid more personality clashes I'll just post a link.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6363.msg67180#msg67180
Hi WW,
For me, a personality clash is solved by folks just discussing the issue, rather than laying down false accusations. I just want to be clear that I do not clash with people on a "personal" level simply because they disagree. Just wanted to put that out there.
The link that you provided is interesting, and I plan on studying that out. I fundamentally agree on the underlying teaching that man's mind must be conformed to God, which is what I see from the statements in that link. However, saying that everyone is already saved while still captive to what they are intended to be saved from is wrong and will always be wrong and itself fundamentally disagrees with the concept provided in that link as well as explicit teachings in the Scripture. I know that makes me seem like a fuddy-duddy, but when people say that mankind was saved by Christ's death, when the teaching says that man is saved by Christ's life, sorry there is nothing I can do with that but disagree, because it is not as fine a point as people would think. It's actually critically foundational because not acknowledging what it MEANS to be saved by Christ's life results in a wider disagreement on the Gospel message itself as ReFORMer demonstrated.
Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2009, 08:31:47 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2009, 07:48:43 AM
Quote from: Nathan on September 10, 2009, 11:17:50 PM
Could it be that perhaps it's more of a personality clash we're experiencing here rather than a blatant misinterpretation? I can see that what Jesus did on the cross did indeed "reconcile", or "redeem" me back to the Father.
To avoid more personality clashes I'll just post a link.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6363.msg67180#msg67180
Hi WW,
For me, a personality clash is solved by folks just discussing the issue, rather than laying down false accusations. I just want to be clear that I do not clash with people on a "personal" level simply because they disagree. Just wanted to put that out there.
Wasn't about you Seth. I was about Nathan and me.
QuoteThe link that you provided is interesting, and I plan on studying that out. I fundamentally agree on the underlying teaching that man's mind must be conformed to God, which is what I see from the statements in that link. However, saying that everyone is already saved while still captive to what they are intended to be saved from is wrong and will always be wrong and itself fundamentally disagrees with the concept provided in that link as well as explicit teachings in the Scripture. I know that makes me seem like a fuddy-duddy, but when people say that mankind was saved by Christ's death, when the teaching says that man is saved by Christ's life, sorry there is nothing I can do with that but disagree, because it is not as fine a point as people would think. It's actually critically foundational because not acknowledging what it MEANS to be saved by Christ's life results in a wider disagreement on the Gospel message itself as ReFORMer demonstrated.
Basicly I see it like this.
It's like a peace conference. God is sitting on the table for millenia (conciliation). There will be only be peace if the other party arrives (reconciliation)
We are not saved until we arrive at that table. But God knows we will arrive at the peace conference and that's why the Bible states we all will be saved.
In this case it's nothing more than semantics but there is a difference between: "is saved" and "will be saved"
It's like if you are at school and every test you made was an A+. Surely you
will graduate. But you aren't graduated until you really are graduated. As said semantics. Also a little off-topic in this thread. Perhaps follow-ups in the other thread?