10 Plagues of Egypt.

[friendofmankind]

How can the 10 Plagues of Egypt be justified?
It's something I know very little about and want to learn, but can't seem to find much on this subject at all.

Anyone?   :HeartThrob:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Sorry, I'd be guessing...
Lee

[Jerm]

As I currently see it, the plagues of Egypt were sent to serve three purposes: 1) Judgment upon the nation that had enslaved the people of God 2) Show how inferior the gods of Egypt were compared to Yahweh and 3) Show how powerful Yahweh is.  However, the heart of the matter here is deeper than simply the plagues of  Egypt.  It goes back to the question "Why is God portrayed as so wrathful and vengeful in the OT?"  In short, I think that has to do with the time period.  These judgments that people point out took place before the Cross, before Sin had been dealt with.  As Paul tells us in Romans, the wages of sin is death.  Simply put: you sin, you die.  Everyone sins and so everyone dies.  If you sin big time, you die faster.  And true to the principle that our actions affect more than just ourselves, often times our sin brings about consequences for those around us as well.  This seems very harsh, especially compared to the portrait of the loving Father we see in the NT, but I no longer see any contradiction.  If God is love, then that means He is love in it's most complete form.  That includes "tough love," which is what I see as His wrath.  The judgments of the OT seem very, very harsh from our point of view but if you ask any child who just got a spanking from their parent what they think of them, odds are it's not going to be nice.  But from the parent's point of view, the spanking, although harsh, was in fact a form of love that was meant to communicate a point.  The wrath that was poured out in the OT was done to show mankind how terrible Sin and it's consequences are.  Was it harsh, yes.  But it was done for purpose and as we here at Tentmaker gladly know, it was NOT permanent.  All people, including the recipients of judgment, will be reconciled back to God, who will turn be all in all. 

[friendofmankind]

Hey thanks for the post guys, Jerm that was interesting, thank you.

Yeh, its not that Im blameing God again or anything or throwing my bible out the window because God did something i dont like (my days of doing that are almost over i think)....Everytime ive looked for answers in the Bible i have usually found them.

When God slew the firstborne, i do believe that we are not talking about little kids here, but about adults, (young men and women at least) who would be 'next in line' as it were to control egypt (or somthing like that)...So God seems to have really shown who was boss, and true God.
I know also that Pharaoh WANTED and thought about doing the same to Israel, BEFORE they did it to Him, so it was on his mind and it is something that he could have followed through with so perhaps thats another reason why God put a stop to it, (to protect his people and the lineage up to the time of Christ etc etc), and Lastly, in those days, there was a lot of fighting, a lot of sin, and we know that harsher sins reap harsher punishments.

I just like to hear what others think on these matters..Its not like im looking for reasons to justify Gods actions, its just that I do believe He is love, so in light of that, I like to find out WHY God did such things.

Great post Jerm, thanks for that.

[friendofmankind]

Sorry, I'd be guessing...
Lee

Your honesty means more Lee!  Thanks bro.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  Reference to the death of the firstborn, it is interesting to note that in Deuteronomy He told them that if they obeyed His commandments and statutes, He would put NONE of the curses of the Egyptians on them, which would include the death of the firstborn. First born of the flesh, then born of the Spirit; there is the superior resurrection Paul talked about where mortality is swallowed up of life. Blessings....

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Card, thank you for reminding me of this thought I had once many years ago.

Refreshing to hear that another human being thinks some of my thoughts too. Lee

[Nancy]

hi ya friendofmankind,

Funnily enough i was looking for a place in the new testament to say that God doesn't punish but look at Luke 13: 4  'Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam falls and kills them, are you supposing that they came to be debtors beyond all the men dwelling in Jersusalem. No, I am saying to you. But if ever you should not be repenting, all of you similarly shall be perishing.' 

This is a peculiar verse. If i'm right Christ is saying that the people who suffered weren't worse than those who didn't but if those who didn''t suffer, don't repent, then they will die!

Maybe this verse and the plagues of Egypt are relating to karma!

Godbless
Nancy

[Nancy]

Hi there again,

Sometimes when i read the bible, i do feel like i am reading from man's viewpoint in that there were natural phenomenon and the people who witnessed it felt that because it was so beneficial towards them, they felt that God was doing it for them.
Let me explain.
I was watching a brilliant programme from a scientists point of view of what caused the 10 plagues. First there was an gigantic volcanic eruption on Thera (i think) and the debris came over the Nile delta but just happened to miss Goshen where the Jews were!
Then the other 9 plagues followed because of the volcanic debris. Then and this is the brilliant part (I feel) was that the food that would have been stored had ergot poisoning. It happens to wheat. I think it is a kind of fungus.  The first born would have been fed first, whether human or animal.  They would subsequently die as they had the most. 

This theory maybe isn't right but to me it was very convincing.
These scientists backed up their theory with modern day volcanic eruptions and the effect that they had and they eerily matched some of the plagues in Egypt!

I am not stating that God wasn't involved but to the Jews everything seemed to happen at the right time for their escape.  I suppose when we talk of coincidences maybe this was one.  Maybe the Egyptians received their 'karma'.  Maybe karma is a natural law that God put in place.  I don't really know.

Friendofmankind, you mention that we are not talking about children, but didn't children die in Haiti?  I not being facetious here.  Maybe there is a plan for everything that happens, i believe there has to be otherwise life doesn't seem to make sense anymore for me.

Godbless
Nancy

[martincisneros]

How can the 10 Plagues of Egypt be justified?
It's something I know very little about and want to learn, but can't seem to find much on this subject at all.

Anyone?   :HeartThrob:

I've heard some say over the years that the 10 plagues were against the 10 gods of Egypt that were most important at that time in their version of a pantheon, but I've not researched it and neither do I have any of the study Bibles that if it's validly researched might give some documentation, like a Dakes study Bible or some of the other study Bibles that are more famous for their study notes than the translation.  If you can track one down at a local Christian bookstore, might be worth keeping the chapter or two in mind of the Bible you'd wanna see what a study Bible with as many notes as a Bible like that would have to say about it.

Might of personally coveted one for years, if I'd given it much thought with how much many rave about those, i.e. the Dakes study Bible, but now that I've totally abandoned the premillenial position, deep paranoia about ordering one from a leading television ministry that's doing a bit of a fund raiser by selling 'em at a price that I'd probably find the exact same edition at a Bible bookstore since study Bibles and especially leather bound ones can go really stupid on you on cost.  Having seen the price ranges of Bibles, I didn't flinch at the amount they were asking for it, since it was probably more than reasonable [compared to current market value] and if they bought 'em in substantial bulk, they'd of gotten a deal to be able to fund the ongoing work of the ministry on the difference.

What I'm flinching at is getting one via the mail and though it's fabulous on a topic like this, PERHAPS, I wind up setting the thing on fire for teaching in the study notes the Left Behind Premill stuff that always bothered me more than eternal Hell 'cause with eternal Hell, life was enough of a gamble without the added dimension of death not being the only thing that could get you kept out if you weren't totally right with Him, but now there was this threat of any minute Jesus would personally grab every Christian and send strong dellusion after you  if you weren't one by the expiration date according to their mishandling of Paul's letters to the Thessalonians.

In other words, miss the rapture bus and if you knew it was coming and you weren't at the bus stop but stepped away for a cigarette and He'd not only leave your butt behind but would go out of His way to send you to Hell by making sure you never believed something that massive was Him doing it.  Genuinely shy about a study Bible like that, that might possibly, just might possibly, have that kinda nonsense in the study notes.  But on something like this, if you could peak inside of it's pages at a bookstore on this very matter, they might cite not only the particular pagan deities that this was supposed to be against, but might cite a historical resource for you to look at the library or a particular reference from a particular encyclopedia that you could waste weeks and weeks trying to track down on your own without a study Bible like that giving you the footnote or expanded center column or other column reference about it.

Would be interested if anybody at these boards happens to have either that particular study Bible or another one that specifically spells out if it was against the pagan deities of Egypt and which ones and for what kinda worship the Egyptians were involved in that when they wouldn't obey YHVH, then it really hit the fan when it was time to get the Israelites out of Egypt.  There are various prophesies in the prophets about Him doing it again on other matters and without getting into a topic or two where it's most relevant, I'll simply say that He's assured us that He'll remove the names of the Baals from the mouths of the people, will famish all of the false gods, etc., in multiple passages that I don't have the references handy on right now on where.

I'm thinking Hosea and Zephaniah, and probably Isaiah as well mention it, and there's references in the Psalms about His coming judgment in our day against false pagan deities that MIGHT MEAN a few things hitting the fan for those worshipping the false, just as Egypt as a people took some heat while God was prying Israel out of their hands and pounding and pounding away against the spiritual strongholds, mentioned in Ephesians 6, that would have had them bound to those false systems of worship, false systems of truth, and false systems of judgment and spirit.

[eaglesway]

  We often see life and death from a very limited perspective. One of the things ultimate reconciliation does for me is it reduces the scope and importance of physical life and death. When the Lord spoke of the cup of the iniquity of the Amorites, or (the Israelites, etc.) being full, He was essentially saying after long patience and hopeful waiting and graduated discipline, the stubborness of their hearts had continued in  rejecting His eternal power and divine nature.
   These are revealed to all men in the creation. This is "the light that lights everyman who comes into the world", the law written on the heart(Romans ch. 1&2 and Jn 1). This is why those with law are judged with law and those without law are judged by the law written on their hearts. Life is a privilege, not a right.
    For instance, God reasons with Jonah concerning the Ninevites, and sends the prophet to declare an opportunity to escape impending discipline. They do so and live rather than die. The offenses that were drawing death to them were stopped because a change of heart came upon the city. Jesus says to Capernaam, "If the signs done in you had been done on Sodom and Gomorrah they would have repented to this day". When Annanias and Saphira were struck down in Acts it was for the purpose of maintaining the clear flow of the river of God in the assembly so that the tabernacle would continue to overflow with His presence and the common salvation would continue to multiply.
    If we try to excise the discipline of God from the gospel it is because we don't understand the function of salt. Salt preserves. The Father felt it necessary to purge the whole of mankind excepting Noah's house- thus preserving mankind. God says He raised up Pharoah that He might demonstrate His glory in him(Pharoah). Show it to whom? To Pharoah of course, but not to him only. To Israel of course, but not to them only. God is unfolding a revelation of Himself through out history to all of mankind. This includes righteousness, accountability, and mercy.
    The fact is that in time God is revealing Himself to everyone all the time, but He cannot be contained in our understanding. The salt and the fire is as important as the water and the blood until all the adversaries are consumed and the revelation is complete- that God is all in all, for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Every offering is salted with fire, and some mens sins go before them into judgment(revealed and judged/consumed/forgiven in life), some mens sins follow after(revealed and judged/consumed/forgiven after death) and in the Great Balance, eventually the mercy of God triumphs over the judgment of God for all.
   Yet, He says, I am the potter and you are the clay- so it is that there are vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, but fear not, mercy triumphs over all.

[Beloved Servant]

Amen, eaglesway.
He can not be contained;
for out of our bellies will come rivers of Living Waters!

[eaglesway]

A-aaamen!

[Cardinal]

  We often see life and death from a very limited perspective. One of the things ultimate reconciliation does for me is it reduces the scope and importance of physical life and death. When the Lord spoke of the cup of the iniquity of the Amorites, or (the Israelites, etc.) being full, He was essentially saying after long patience and hopeful waiting and graduated discipline, the stubborness of their hearts had continued in  rejecting His eternal power and divine nature.
   These are revealed to all men in the creation. This is "the light that lights everyman who comes into the world", the law written on the heart(Romans ch. 1&2 and Jn 1). This is why those with law are judged with law and those without law are judged by the law written on their hearts. Life is a privilege, not a right.
    For instance, God reasons with Jonah concerning the Ninevites, and sends the prophet to declare an opportunity to escape impending discipline. They do so and live rather than die. The offenses that were drawing death to them were stopped because a change of heart came upon the city. Jesus says to Capernaam, "If the signs done in you had been done on Sodom and Gomorrah they would have repented to this day". When Annanias and Saphira were struck down in Acts it was for the purpose of maintaining the clear flow of the river of God in the assembly so that the tabernacle would continue to overflow with His presence and the common salvation would continue to multiply.
    If we try to excise the discipline of God from the gospel it is because we don't understand the function of salt. Salt preserves. The Father felt it necessary to purge the whole of mankind excepting Noah's house- thus preserving mankind. God says He raised up Pharoah that He might demonstrate His glory in him(Pharoah). Show it to whom? To Pharoah of course, but not to him only. To Israel of course, but not to them only. God is unfolding a revelation of Himself through out history to all of mankind. This includes righteousness, accountability, and mercy.
    The fact is that in time God is revealing Himself to everyone all the time, but He cannot be contained in our understanding. The salt and the fire is as important as the water and the blood until all the adversaries are consumed and the revelation is complete- that God is all in all, for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Every offering is salted with fire, and some mens sins go before them into judgment(revealed and judged/consumed/forgiven in life), some mens sins follow after(revealed and judged/consumed/forgiven after death) and in the Great Balance, eventually the mercy of God triumphs over the judgment of God for all.
   Yet, He says, I am the potter and you are the clay- so it is that there are vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, but fear not, mercy triumphs over all.

:cloud9: :thumbsup:

[friendofmankind]

Great posts everyone thank you  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

  That was a great post John / Eaglesway !!  :icon_flower:

  Thanks for sharing it ..
    the salt covenant with David 
and the same  being salted with Fire to this DAY  :HeartThrob:


2Ki 2:21 And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the LORD, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren [land]. 


2Ch 13:5   Ought ye not to know that the LORD God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, [even] to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt? 

Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

   

[eaglesway]

Amen rosered,
        When we see the salt as fire it puts a whole different perspective on everything written about fire throughout the scriptures. Being salted with fire is a manifestation of God's patience with me-(though I rarely see it that way when in the process  :mblush:)

Heb 12:11  All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

[sheila]

  Regarding the ten plagues....

   one thing I take away from that account is the building

pressure that Father places on rulers of this world, that hold His

PEOPLE

in slavery..when He is ready to deliver them!!!

  And then,I consider the plagues upon the people in Revelations

  when He once again goes forth to deliver.

   He says 'Israel is MY first-born son"

....a three day journey in the wilderness..to offer a sacrifice

  unto the Lord.

   Sin is a slave-master to those in bondage to it

[Nathan]

I haven't said anything to anyone on this forum about this yet, but I've written a book in my time off.  The theme is this very subject.  I see a direct connection between the modern-day church and the Egyptians of Moses' day.  They turned on God's people out of dark faith.  They saw the people were growing and even though Israel had shown no signs of warring against them, they feared they would so they enslaved them. 

Due to what God did to free his people, it's evident the power of the Egyptians came through their belief system.  God could have just sent an actual angel like he did with Peter when he was chained up in prison.  But he didn't.  He could have sent an earthquake like he did when Paul was in prison . .but he didn't.  Everything you see happening in Scripture, happens with purpose, on purpose. 

The Egyptians were well known for worshiping the earth and everything on it.  God took the very things they worshiped and systematically broke them with the very things they idolized.  Sound familiar?  The children of israel would later do the same thing in their demands for eating flesh, and God gave them just what they craved and the blessing turned into a curse.  Patterns never change.  Egyptians worshiped the Nile, God turned it into blood.  Blood is a sign for cleansing sacrifice.  Also life is in the blood. 

When an animal was sacrifed, the blood was removed from the animal first and taken outside the camp.  Why?  Because the sacrifice was signfying the dominance of law and life was not held to law.  Fleshed was to be consumed according to law, but life was not a part of it because life is not bound by law . .. another book for another time perhaps.

The things that Egypt held in high esteem, were the things God used to break their hold on his people.  10 is the number of law.  In order for Israel to experience their freedom, God had to break the law that bound them.  It reminds me of the woman with an issue of blood that pressed into the crowd to touch the hem of Jesus garment.  She had to break the law in order to do that because by law, she wasn't even supposed to be there.  She was considered unclean.  She was supposed to be cast out of the city until this thing cleared up.  But she broke the law. 

When Jesus perform many of his miracles, he had to first break the law.  How many times do you see the Pharisees getting ticked off at him because he kept healing people on the Sabbath.  He was revealing a principle of rest and they couldn't get past the law of the church. 

In order for Israel to be free from their bondage, the laws had to first be broken.  I'm telling you it's no different in the church today.  Only the laws, the idols have a different title or face.  Now instead of worshiping cows or frogs, the church worships tithing, the rapture, hell, salvation. the bible . . .they pretty much elevate anything they can get their minds on to a place where no man would dare to approach it. 

As a result, our neighbors, our friends and our families are in bondage.  They can't see things that are true and full of light because their belief systems have bound them to stay behind the man-made boundary lines put there by men who use fear as intimidation and shame as their rod of iron. 

But there's a Moses message coming.  There is a sound building up that is putting all the religious on edge.  Be ready for the death of the first born.  When the first fruits of men come to an end, deliverance is upon us all.  May we join in the sound that is bringing down the idols of religious minds not so that we can be a part of a revolt, but so that we can see people set free from the bondages of their own minds.  So that they can see that the power of the cross goes far beyond the conscious decision making process of any man. 

That redemption has come to the whole world, not just a fragment of it.  May Christ return just as they saw him go . . . in a resurrected state.  I'm not looking for him to return again in the flesh, he's already redeemed the flesh back to the Father.  I'm not waiting for the church to leave so the ungodly can get what's coming to them . . .that's religion talking.  That's the mind of bondage blurting out perverisons of truth.

May the church see not a religious image of Christ that it's formed from tradition, but may it finally see the true image of God, the true nature of love as it manifests in the hearts of those whom He's created.  Even so come quickly Lord Jesus!!

Why the ten plagues?  Because God took what men built up the highest and he brought it down to it's lowest.  And the result was, freedom from the strongholds of men.

[Yab Yum]

...

Wow. I like!

(http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/happy/happy0005.gif)

[eaglesway]

Hi Nathan,
Are you saying that Jesus flesh/body was not resurrected, or that it is a resurrected body/spiritual body? I see in the scriptures that what is sown an earthly body is raised a spiritual body, and the glories differ as in the glories of sun, moon, planet, etc. However, it appears to me that Jesus made several special points in demonstrating that He was appearing in the body that hung on the cross and was laid in the tomb- tho it was raised a spiritual body, able to reside in glory as that seen in revelation. As I read in another one of your posts.... I am not looking to pick a fight, but I do want to understand your perspective. Peace, John

[jabcat]

...it appears to me that Jesus made several special points in demonstrating that He was appearing in the body that hung on the cross and was laid in the tomb- tho it was raised a spiritual body, able to reside in glory as that seen in revelation.

We had a pretty big discussion here a few months ago about this - it appeared at the time the majority opinion was that perhaps Jesus will only be present "in the saints, not in His glorified body".  I may have been in the minority then and may still be  :bigGrin:, but even though He may reveal Himself in many different ways, I still say I will one day see Him face to face - in all His glory.  


So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption I Cor. 15:42

"Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."  John 20:27

But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality.. I Cor 15:54

Hmmm...not sure how my post ties into the 10 plagues of Egypt... :offtopic:

[Nathan]

No eaglesway, I never meant to imply he has not resurrected by any means.  In fact, I believe more than most that he didn't just come to die, he came to resurrect, but to do that, death had to occur. 

The state when he left . . .if he was to come back in the flesh as they saw him go . . .the quote from an angel at his ascension.  If he was to return in the flesh, then the angel lied to them because there is no record of Jesus ever returning to them in the flesh or to anyone else.

However, if you see that it was a resurrected state when he left them and he "did" return to them "Inwardly" then the angel's message still stands true.

[eaglesway]

As I see it, He returned to them inwardly through the anointing, on the day of Pentecost. As He lives in us by the Spirit -"Christ in you the hope of glory". He appeared to them in the flesh and after many proofs such as eating fish, "you see that a spirit has not flesh and blood as I do", touch the scars in my hand and my side, etc. He declared His physical resurrection.

As Peter declared

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:30-33)

Now since He has received the Spirit without measure, He is now head over all things to the church, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all- by the Spirit. He is the chief cornerstone of the dwelling place made of living stones, the habitation of God in the Spirit.

I believe He will return as they saw Him go, on the day we receive the "adoption as sons, even the redemption of our bodies"

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(Rom 8:9-11)

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(Rom 8:16-23)

Peace John

[Nathan]

I haven't read all of your post yet, but I just wanted to throw this to you before I forget it . . .the eating of fish happened after the resurrection . . .not after the ascension.  He appeared in the flesh after the resurrection, but as far as I know, there were no more appearances in the flesh after the ascension.