wrath and love

[anti_nietzsche]

I'm not sure how to write down my thoughts in here, but they make sense to me and I have to air them to see what other people think.

First, the matter is this: if universal reconciliation were the true message of the bible, how is it that it's not apparent in scripture, why must we take such great pains to see that the bible teaches this doctrine?

Second, the bible is rather full of stories about God exercising punishments, and severe ones at that. There is the Flood, there is God commanding the Israelites to kill each other in the camp, there is God commending an Israelite for killing an offender with a spear, there is God killing Uzza just because he didn't want the ark to slip off the wagon. There are many more examples, and in most of these I would normally say, why does God simply kill these people without warning or argument.

There is Jesus condemning Judas to a death he could not escape anyway, because scripture had to be fulfilled. There is the story of Hananias and Sapphira - why didn't God, if he loved these two people too, threaten them first? Why didn't He, say, let them get sick, and if they would repent, let them get well again.

I am not attacking God's character, but when I browse through the bible I find stories of God exercising extremely HARSH punishments. And in the book of Job we find a man suffering about the worst that could happen in this life, and according to the book it wasn't even a punishment for a sin, it was just so that Job could prove the honesty of his love for God.

God has also done tremendous good to people. But usually, people were given the same choice as the Israelites - the choice between life and death. If they followed life, if they practiced humility, if they were faithful to God, they could expect life. But if they decided themselves wrongly, if they left God, they were usually condemned to death. I was recently reading Jeremiah that had the same theme. The number of jews that remained after Babylon's attack and sacking of Jerusalem were told that God loved them and wanted the best for them, God told them to stay in Israel, but if they would not be obedient they would face pain, terror and finally death. Most of the Israelites were disobedient and chose to go to Egypt and to get back at worshipping idols. And so they reaped a reward of death.

I think that with all these examples, UR seems very unlikely to be true. God has a deep interest in being number #1 ... He shows us the good and gives us the good, but if we leave him his love for us cools down and may even turn into hate.

God's wrath seems a very real threat in the bible, and that not just in the OT scriptures, also in some of the NT scriptures. I don't like that, but I can't help it, it seems so obvious when reading scripture.

[jabcat]

Wood,  hay, stubble, burned.  Everything else that's lost is found - restored, reconciled.  God's judgments lead to righteousness.

When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.  Isaiah 26:9

[peacemaker]

I find many are anthropomorphic in their thinking, following the god of this world (man), not the true and living SPIRIT.

[legoman]

Why should examples of God's finite judgment and punishments, which may appear harsh to us, be proof that God will ultimately allow or purpose infinite judgment and punishment?  In fact it should give us hope that whatever judgment we face, no matter how harsh, will indeed end at some point.


The fact of the matter is UR is very visible throughout the whole bible, but most of these verses are ignored/twisted because of a few mistranslated verses that speak of "eternal" fire and "hell" forever.

[Shadow]

I'm not sure how to write down my thoughts in here, but they make sense to me and I have to air them to see what other people think.

First, the matter is this: if universal reconciliation were the true message of the bible, how is it that it's not apparent in scripture, why must we take such great pains to see that the bible teaches this doctrine?

Second, the bible is rather full of stories about God exercising punishments, and severe ones at that. There is the Flood, there is God commanding the Israelites to kill each other in the camp, there is God commending an Israelite for killing an offender with a spear, there is God killing Uzza just because he didn't want the ark to slip off the wagon. There are many more examples, and in most of these I would normally say, why does God simply kill these people without warning or argument.

There is Jesus condemning Judas to a death he could not escape anyway, because scripture had to be fulfilled. There is the story of Hananias and Sapphira - why didn't God, if he loved these two people too, threaten them first? Why didn't He, say, let them get sick, and if they would repent, let them get well again.

I am not attacking God's character, but when I browse through the bible I find stories of God exercising extremely HARSH punishments. And in the book of Job we find a man suffering about the worst that could happen in this life, and according to the book it wasn't even a punishment for a sin, it was just so that Job could prove the honesty of his love for God.

God has also done tremendous good to people. But usually, people were given the same choice as the Israelites - the choice between life and death. If they followed life, if they practiced humility, if they were faithful to God, they could expect life. But if they decided themselves wrongly, if they left God, they were usually condemned to death. I was recently reading Jeremiah that had the same theme. The number of jews that remained after Babylon's attack and sacking of Jerusalem were told that God loved them and wanted the best for them, God told them to stay in Israel, but if they would not be obedient they would face pain, terror and finally death. Most of the Israelites were disobedient and chose to go to Egypt and to get back at worshipping idols. And so they reaped a reward of death.

I think that with all these examples, UR seems very unlikely to be true. God has a deep interest in being number #1 ... He shows us the good and gives us the good, but if we leave him his love for us cools down and may even turn into hate.

God's wrath seems a very real threat in the bible, and that not just in the OT scriptures, also in some of the NT scriptures. I don't like that, but I can't help it, it seems so obvious when reading scripture.

I know how you feel, for over a year now, I've tried to believe UR is true, but I see the same thing you do :mshock:

However, although I don't see UR, I at least believe there is more biblical support for conditional immortality than ET after having read a few websites on both UR and annihilation, and to me personally annihilation isn't such a bad thing and I don't have a moral problem with it, in fact I'd rather just cease to exist anyway if the choice were up to me

UR makes the most sense and it is a wonderful concept, but my gut feeling tells me that it isn't right

I've said it before and I'll say it for the last time, I just don't see an all loving benevolent God, I've tried to but I just can't see it, at least an annihilation God is far more merciful than an ET God, so at least that's something

I think I may have to leave this for a few weeks and try approach it at a later stage, as at this stage I don't feel as if I could love God, so it would be hypocritical for me to pretend otherwise

[NinjaWizards777]

First, the matter is this: if universal reconciliation were the true message of the bible, how is it that it's not apparent in scripture, why must we take such great pains to see that the bible teaches this doctrine?

well, if youre anything like me, youve probably been saturated in the popular interpretations of the bible your entire life(even if you havent been, I assume thats the background of most the people here on tentmaker). If youve been taught for years to string scripture together a certain way, of course its going to be hard to try and look at them from a completely different angle. For me, its been a gradual thing...I didnt magically wake up and conclude that everything in the Bible points towards ultimate reconcilliation. It took studying, praying and thinking on the subject for several months. If you dont see it yet, you just dont and thats okay. If its really true, God will show you sooner or later. But the worse thing you can do is to force yourself into the mindset, I tried that once and it just made me more confused and angry. Just let it come.

Second, the bible is rather full of stories about God exercising punishments, and severe ones at that. There is the Flood, there is God commanding the Israelites to kill each other in the camp, there is God commending an Israelite for killing an offender with a spear, there is God killing Uzza just because he didn't want the ark to slip off the wagon. There are many more examples, and in most of these I would normally say, why does God simply kill these people without warning or argument.

Ultimate reconciliation doesnt deny punishments. Growing up, sometimes my mom gave me severe punishments for my actions as well but the fact that she loved me and wanted the best for me always became apparent, even when I didnt understand. There are alot of things in the old testament I dont understand and some I question whether we are given the full story on to begin with (like God supposedly commanding the Israelites to kill people). But I think its helpful to try and look at things beyond our earthly perspective. If we look at life just through our earthy perspective, its very hard to see the injustice and evil in life as having any sortof benefit or purpose. However if we look at things from the spiritual perception (which includes the afterlife) its easier, at least to me, to see how God could allow so many bad things to happen and still pull something good out of it. Does that make sense? What im trying to say is, yeah death and severe punishment is sometimes brought about by God...but is that the end for that person? If ultimate reconciliation is true, it certainly isnt. Whatever punishment or trial they may undergo in this life or the next we can assume is ultimately for their good IF it plays a part in bringing them growth, repentance and ultimately, everlasting joy with God.

I think that with all these examples, UR seems very unlikely to be true. God has a deep interest in being number #1 ... He shows us the good and gives us the good, but if we leave him his love for us cools down and may even turn into hate.

Do you really think His perfect love is that temporary and eternally put out by our short-lived endeavors of sin? If his love really "endures forever"(psalms 136), that cannot be so

[NinjaWizards777]

I think I may have to leave this for a few weeks and try approach it at a later stage, as at this stage I don't feel as if I could love God, so it would be hypocritical for me to pretend otherwise

thats what happens when you criticly examine the doctrine of eternal torment...no matter how you look at it you have a God who is mean and partial to a percentage of His creations. A type of god who I found to be very unloveable. It wasnt until I got to that point that God really started to break the crust of religious oppression off my heart to see that He really is greater than that and so much more lovable than I ever thought. You have to go through your doubts before you can be sure about anything

[herbyguitar]

We assume that what we read is directly from the mouth of God. All scripture is a slow and steady revelation.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Do you really understand and fathom what this statement is saying?

When God was talking to the adversary in Job, who's perspective were we really looking at? God's or Job's? Was Job really perfect in his ways? Did the adversary know something about Job that God did not? What was Job's crime? If he was really blameless as God said he was then why did he rebuke him later?

We tend to see the bible as God's perspective on things when the real perspective is man's. When Adam sinned what did he do? He covered himself because he was ashamed (fearful). What was God's response to this? "Use the covering "I" have provided. Was God's wrath directed at Adam? No. But we see God's wrath where there is none. What changed? Man's heart or God's heart?