temporary "hell" still unloving?

[NinjaWizards777]

You wish to say that hell is not eternal largely due to God's love in your own thoughts yet in this same theory God is very arbitrarily sending people into torment for an unknown period of time for no other reason then He cares to rather then merely save them in advance as He does for others. While the other wording tries it's hardest to sound better then a judicial reasoning I can't say that it actually accomplishes its task at all but merely masks it. Rehabilitation would presume that the person can change which we agree they can not until or unless God chooses to do so and therefore they will only be in hell until God is pleased to let them out/change them right? I fail to see the loving portion of this theory while again it sounds better in one respect that is only due to masking the intention behind it on God's part.

In the end you must say that God wants there to be a hell, which will in fact be inhabited for a period of time with most people in it do you not?

...Im not even sure exactly what this guy is talking about anymore lol. I guess hes trying to turn the tables on me and say that my view is less moral than his calvinist one. I guess a God saving a random few while the leaving rest get to be in a everlasting torture chamber is much more loving, than God temporarily chastising people to eventually save all. Oh yes, that makes PERFECT sense! Its a bunch of crap and yet I dont even know how to word a response to it. I tried explaining that its only because he wont look at afterlife punishment as anything else but retributive and out of hate...but hes still on the same train of crap.

[WhiteWings]

Assuming I understand him correctly I think he made a very good point.

Noone  come to the Lord unless He draws them.
So if you are in hell for 20 days it means God started drawing after 20 days.
So it was God's choice to have (the vast majority) people in hell.

So I think he is right. Assuming he's not speaking of the lava pit type of hell.

[sheila]

   God in His own words declared His choice.....Jacob I have

loved yet Esau I have hated. Yet, people have misunderstood

what He is declaring. In that, Old Adam/unregenerate man is

rejected and New creature in Christ is chosen of Him.And these

two images all men bear

  We have all been lowered/subjected into vanity,not of our own

will, but by Him. To me, this realm/lowered state is the vanity

for we can do nothing of ourselves to remedy this condition, but

it lies in Him to deliver His creation into the glorious freedom of

the Sons of God. Doing this He declares His ultimate authority,

and we fully recognize that He himself forms us.

   It is His will that all His sons and daughters expierence this

exercise in futility, and He works all to the good,eternally.

  For we are perfected through suffering..and evil is what

provides the suffering. Through suffering we develope mercy

and compassion/which is a fruit of the Holy spirit and character

of Love.And He requires all the fruit.

  Also, the spirit of self pride and boasting is removed from His

children,eternally through this 'education' experience.


   Hell is this realm, it is the corruption were sown in.

  It is here we are tormented with thoughts of rejection/death

plagues and all evil due to lies and deceptions. The prince of

this world is judged,and it's works are declared evil.

   The Adam of the dust of the earth will return unto the earth

[dissolve] but the spirit of Christ the new man/creature will

return unto God

   I personally beleive that ALL MEN will have a first resurrection

for all men are FIRSTBORN IN HEAVEN. If not while in this

world then when their spirit returns unto Father.

  what is the secound death..it is the resurrection of the

righteous and wicked[both of which dwell in our corruptible flesh

from eating of the TOKOGAE]. This the seperating of the sheep

from Goats in our flesh[sheep righteous acts done by spirit of

God,goats wicked acts done from evil motive/man of sin]

Jesus commands such thing to depart from us[do away with the

Glory of His coming] In this manner we are bone of His bone

and flesh of His flesh/clothed with immortality.[He appears to

us 'seperate' from sin[in our flesh]

   I beleive this happens at our physical death, or when we are

changed in a twinkling at the last trump.

   I do not beleive any man is tormented after death, I simply

beleive that the chaff is removed from them[that all things that

cause sin and stumbling and error are removed from them]

   who is harmed of the secound death? No wheat, just tares,

goats etc..going into non-existence.Refinement by His spirit of

  judgement...what is the death of death but LIFE?

   I see the LOF as the death of death...and only death is

harmed..and sin which brings the sting of death is consumed

or swallowed up,with the breath of His coming.

   Since it is under His jurisdiction as to who/where/what and  in

which way all mankind will serve His purpose. No-one can be

any other way than which way He forms them. For we do not

form ourselves but are the work of His hands

    The evil works of Sodom and Gomorrah were burned up

by fire..yet we know He speaks of restoration, and also that

we would have been just like Sodom and Gomarrah;[Isaaih

16;53] if He had

not left us a seed[of promise] even Christ and the promised

spirit/token of our deliverance .

   A feild overcome by tares and thorns  is given unto the fire

  when Christ become sin for us on the cross,a crown of thorns

was placed upon His head, symbolizing the judgement of the

first Adam,the body of the man of sin, that the land would bring

forth thorns weeds[con-science=with knowledge, Know[intimate

union/oneness] from TOKOGAE expierence . The same way with

the brazen serpent lifted up in the wilderness, those that had

been bitten have expiereced the judgement of God[fiery

serpents] But looking at it would live.Through the promised seed

[sheila]

p.s.   our life in this corruptible/sin realm is HELL . And it is by

the will of God we expierence it. As to whether this is unloving

I do not judge Him for it. For it is for our perfection.

   For if it pleases God that man's suffering brings forth the will

of God and the perfection of all His children, who are we?

Philipians 2;6  who being in very nature God, did not consider

equality with God something to be grasped, BUT MADE

HIMSELF NOTHING, TAKING THE VERY NATURE OF A SERVANT,

BEING MADE IN HUMAN LIKENESS. AND BEING FOUND IN

APPEARANCE AS A MAN,HE HUMBLED HIMSELF AND BECAME

TO DEATH-.

  See, there was a difference between Him and us..we come

unwillingly to this[dragged actually] and dragged back we also

go. Not so for Him

[Paul Hazelwood]

You wish to say that hell is not eternal largely due to God's love in your own thoughts yet in this same theory God is very arbitrarily sending people into torment for an unknown period of time for no other reason then He cares to rather then merely save them in advance as He does for others. While the other wording tries it's hardest to sound better then a judicial reasoning I can't say that it actually accomplishes its task at all but merely masks it. Rehabilitation would presume that the person can change which we agree they can not until or unless God chooses to do so and therefore they will only be in hell until God is pleased to let them out/change them right? I fail to see the loving portion of this theory while again it sounds better in one respect that is only due to masking the intention behind it on God's part.

In the end you must say that God wants there to be a hell, which will in fact be inhabited for a period of time with most people in it do you not?

...Im not even sure exactly what this guy is talking about anymore lol. I guess hes trying to turn the tables on me and say that my view is less moral than his calvinist one. I guess a God saving a random few while the leaving rest get to be in a everlasting torture chamber is much more loving, than God temporarily chastising people to eventually save all. Oh yes, that makes PERFECT sense! Its a bunch of crap and yet I dont even know how to word a response to it. I tried explaining that its only because he wont look at afterlife punishment as anything else but retributive and out of hate...but hes still on the same train of crap.

It's an attempt to obscure the difference between a temporary condition and being somewhere for all eternity without hope since he has probably ran out of reasonable refutations.

The fact remains that even Eternal Hell Christians cannot agree on how bad Hell will be.  They range from a literal burning pit in the center of the earth to just a deep sadness and how bad you are on earth can dictate how bad it is for you in hell for all eternity.

It also is a fact that believers that God will reconcile all things also have a disagreement on what this temporary state after death may consist of.

But seriously, if someone can't put together the pieces to understand there is a difference between a temporary state of needing correction through suffering the consequences of our actions and a banishment to a place forever without hope, then I'd be bold enough to declare him the loser of the debate to his face.   ;)

[sheila]

  I wonder if our very unwillingness to be subjected into this

temporal'hell' death state[servitude] isn't what was the impetus

for the temptation in the garden...the choice to be like God and

not die[when He sent us down to die[expierence corruption]

  'unless a seed of grain fall to the earth and die..it can not

bear fruit unto heaven'

   Our very unwillingness to serve is a rebellion against His

  will,of sorts

[sheila]

Psalms 110;3

   Thy people SHALL BE WILLING in the day of thy power

   in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning

   thou hast the dew of thy youth.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Wow, that really spoke volumes to me, Sheila. That's exactly what the temptation was. Think about it. The adversary was pure rebellion in nature, and that nature always expresses itself in trying to present any solution it can think of that interferes with our dying to self on some level. So he is the adversarial nature that opposes our dying to self in essence.

He spoke thru Peter when Jesus revealed the manner in which He should DIE. Everyone has a tendency to look at that as only a natural physical death, but the essence of it was His being willing to die to the 'self' He had in order to conform to the Father's will for Him.

When we are lowered into this bondage of vanity and corruption, it is because iniquity was found in us (Adam/Lucifer) which is WHY we were unwillingly to be lowered in the first place. I'm starting to get a glimmer of something else here. Need to meditate on it. Thanks for your post. Blessings....

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:

[NinjaWizards777]

this thread has already confused me...lol

[fire walker]

 :dontknow: oops I posted this reply on wrong board so it was in wrong  discussion thread. I have deleted post as it was confusing and had no meaning on this thread, the reply was meant fo an entirely differant discussion board &thread.

Fire Walker

[Zero7]

Sheila,

Excellent thread so far. I would have to disagree with one of your points though.

You said...

I do not beleive any man is tormented after death, I simply

beleive that the chaff is removed from them[that all things that

cause sin and stumbling and error are removed from them]

I believe the chaff is removed as well but my opinion is that it IS quite painful.

I've read many, many NDE's and one common thing that comes up over and over is something called the life review. People are shown their lives and interactions with others and many people have said they would have preferred physical pain over what they were seeing. They were SO ashamed over how they mistreated others.

So, I do think there is suffering for many after they die but it is needed and corrective.

[sheila]

   I appreciate your post...but I am putting faith in this

   Joel 2;26   You will have plenty to eat,until you are full, and

you will praise the name of the Lord your God,who has worked

wonders for you....NEVER AGAIN WILL MY PEOPLE BE SHAMED.


   I beleive the restoration will accomplish this.....the chaff

[old man of sin] is our shame or body of humiliation, the wheat

new creature in Christ is man in the Glory of the only begotton

  son of God.

     Isaaih 25;6-9  On this mountain the Lord will prepare a

feast of rich dishes for all people, a banquet of aged wine-the

best of meats and the finest of wines.On this mountain He will

destroy the shroud that enfolds[chaff?] all peoples, the sheet

that covers all nations; He will swallow up death forever. The

Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces.

  HE WILL REMOVE THE DISGRACE OF HIS PEOPLE FROM ALL

  THE EARTH.   The LORD HAS SPOKEN

     Blessings, Sheila :HeartThrob:

[herbyguitar]

The wheat will be separated from the chaff:

A crown is given to those who overcome:  If you have sin and are discusted with it but can't seem to loose it no matter what you do, would you be grateful to God for removing it from you? (thorn in the flesh)

They will suffer loss but they will be saved: If you are carnally minded and love the ways of the world and enjoy your toys very much, would you be anguished if God wrenched these things from you? (the rich man)

The least will be the greatest: Who of us will be most glorified in the kingdom of heaven? Which people were the most grateful to Jesus for setting them free?