Why would God let the Bible get corrupted? Why would he let the church fall into error and teach things that aren't true? Isn't it more logical to assume the Church has been right all along?
Quote from: staranthology on July 12, 2019, 08:16:04 PM
Why would God let the Bible get corrupted? Why would he let the church fall into error and teach things that aren't true? Isn't it more logical to assume the Church has been right all along?
Well I feel for you so much and have felt the exact same as you do .
for me it is the pride of life that causes sin to abound , we know pride is destructive , nothing worse than being self righteous
and consider your own salvation and not the salvation of others whom are poor in spirit . it is a fake and pretender spirit in my own opinion . selfish in every way possible making slaves to sin and She is called Babylon , the spirit of confusion by mixing .
I just know that JESUS CHRIST defeated DEATH , being the works of satan on the cross , saying it is finished , HE IS THE RESURRECTION and life and those dead that hear His voice shall live .........
as far as Babylon goes this is found described in Revelations 17 & 18 of our Lord Jesus Christ
Rev 18 Young's Literal Translation
And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying,
'Come forth out of her, My people, that ye may not partake with her sins, and that ye may not receive of her plagues in Her Gods wrath is complete Revelation 15:1
Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues,
with which the wrath of God will be completed. it all prophecy and Gods Word is truth
Quote from: staranthology on July 12, 2019, 08:16:04 PM
Why would God let the Bible get corrupted? Why would he let the church fall into error and teach things that aren't true? Isn't it more logical to assume the Church has been right all along?
To me, it's a matter of - the church vs. the bible
They key is to keep reading.. and for me that's doing my own reading, not through the ideas of others as to what it says..
If He were going to not allow things to flow where they will - for a time and
purpose - He could have not put the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden.. He could have kept prevented the falling into disobedience and imperfection/the carnal character all together. But logically, how? By never endowing thinking and reasoning ability. Because to endowing rationality, a whole new world (er, tree) of possibilities 'came about', because with it comes, sooner or later the ability to make choices (highly limited thank goodness :gsmile: )
"He subjected ALL to disobedience so He can have mercy upon ALL.." Romans 11:32
Romans 5:19 - "For
just as through the disobedience of the one man
the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man
the many will be made righteous."
Humanity is "the many". And Jesus is "the one".
P.S. I don't really think of it as corrupted, just translated wrong in a couple of ways, and by teaching endlessly a certain mindset about it.. Strip away that mindset and it goes from being a Picasso, or worse a Salvadore Dali painting to a beautiful, breathtaking landscape, too beautiful to barely be able to believe it exists..
I go by the first meaning of "sheol" the true companion to death.. which was "of dust" was where one knows nothing.. where there is no thought nor doing.. Believing people have eternal life without Jesus, is the root of many ppl's troubles.. Cause then you have to have a hell or place of imprisonment.. for centuries.. all thrown together, from the least little sinner, to the most grievous of sadists and predators, so likely a sort of hell (it would be, if it existed, imo/ :2c: )
:thumbsup: rose
Quote from: marie glen on July 12, 2019, 10:52:48 PM
P.S. I don't really think of it as corrupted, just translated wrong in a couple of ways, and by teaching endlessly a certain mindset about it.. Strip away that mindset and it goes from being a Picasso, or worse a Salvadore Dali painting to a beautiful, breathtaking landscape, too beautiful to barely be able to believe it exists..
That's a really good point. The oldest manuscripts agree in wording 96-98% of the time. There are some mostly minor transcription differences here and there. IMO, it's how a few words have been translated, then interpreted, then taught - for various reasons (sometimes nefarious - for control, etc.) that has perpetuated mass error. Aion and gehenna/hades/sheol/tartarus being the main ones.
I'm not sure God is intent on saving the mass of humanity in this age. Jesus often hid Himself (His true identity) while walking the earth. If we believed in eternal torment, we'd have to say He willingly hid salvation from many He knew would "go to hell" as a result. Of course, I believe that's not the case. It just wasn't their time, and He was and is working a purpose of the ages.
I believe He is calling out an elect who HE gives the faith to believe, and the desire to "search out a matter"*. Then this priesthood of believers (kings) will be instrumental in the next age as God establishes His kingdom and renews all.
*It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings. Pr 25:2
Can we fully understand what it means to be saved if we haven't been subjected to corruption, and can we fully understand how much He truly loves us by saving
and forgiving us from that corruption?
We were all subject to vanity so that He would save and forgive all.
My :2c:
I think about this, too. Even if you don't think of it in terms of 'corruption', there are passages in the Bible, that sometimes seem to contradict other passages. I am beginning to think that God has allowed this, deliberately ( Isn't everything that happens allowed or initiated by Him? )
to give people opportunities to decide who God truly is; what side of the fence they want to stand on; how they choose to interpret the Bible, bringing them to conclusions about life, God, and their own journey down here. God did not have to give us this journey....He chose to. He did not need to see what we would do....He could have played out the whole trip in His own mind, and then just put us where He wanted us to be. The journey, as I increasingly see it, is for us, individually, and collectively. For us to get to know who we really are....for us to shape and influence each other; for us to grow and be transformed. It is a journey for us to get to know Him. "Who do men say that I am? You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."
Are we searching for TRUTH? What price are we willing to pay for it? What if everyone around us say that we are demonic because of where our journey seems to be taking us? God is watching us deal with these issues.
Recently a Pastor, whom I greatly admired, told me I was listening to the devil, when I attempted to talk to him about my UR beliefs. I have not been back to that church, since. I knew many of the people there....I liked everything about that church.....but, now I must deal with my decisions. I know God is listening to my conversations, but most importantly, my heart. I know He hears my prayers for guidance.
I think about how generations of people have lived with this discrepancy. How could a God who has pledged unfailing love allow people to go to hell? A God who created us in His own image and likeness. A God who counts every hair on our head. A God whom Paul says that not even death can seperate us from His love? A God who knitted us, in our mother's womb? Most might well never question this. I didn't......until someone discussed their viewpoint with me. At first, I almost wished I never thought of this possibility....it opened up so many possible roads, some of which seemed scary. I wasn't sure I was willing to explore all this. I didn't want a new crossroad in my journey.... I felt I had had too many, already. Yet, I could not resist the thought.....that was the God I knew! A God who would truly never leave us, or abandon us. The God who had continually asked me to love and forgive, even when it was difficult and painful to do so. The God of the Prodigal Son story, the God who left the 99 for the 1. Yes! There He was!
So, here I am, talking to you.
I hope you all can understand my train of thought. I know I can get convoluted at times. :drama:
D.
Quote from: marie glen on July 12, 2019, 10:25:03 PM
Quote from: staranthology on July 12, 2019, 08:16:04 PM
Why would God let the Bible get corrupted? Why would he let the church fall into error and teach things that aren't true? Isn't it more logical to assume the Church has been right all along?
To me, it's a matter of - the church vs. the bible
They key is to keep reading.. and for me that's doing my own reading, not through the ideas of others as to what it says..
If He were going to not allow things to flow where they will - for a time and purpose - He could have not put the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden.. He could have kept prevented the falling into disobedience and imperfection/the carnal character all together. But logically, how? By never endowing thinking and reasoning ability. Because to endowing rationality, a whole new world (er, tree) of possibilities 'came about', because with it comes, sooner or later the ability to make choices (highly limited thank goodness :gsmile: )
"He subjected ALL to disobedience so He can have mercy upon ALL.." Romans 11:32
Romans 5:19 - "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."
Humanity is "the many". And Jesus is "the one".
Great thought process, Maria Glen! Thanks.
D.
Quote from: jabcat on July 12, 2019, 11:19:37 PM
The oldest manuscripts agree in wording 96-98% of the time. There are some mostly minor transcription differences here and there. IMO, it's how a few words have been translated, then interpreted, then taught - for various reasons (sometimes nefarious - for control, etc.) that has perpetuated mass error. Aion and gehenna/hades/sheol/tartarus being the main ones.
I'm not sure God is intent on saving the mass of humanity in this age. Jesus often hid Himself (His true identity) while walking the earth. If we believed in eternal torment, we'd have to say He willingly hid salvation from many He knew would "go to hell" as a result. Of course, I believe that's not the case. It just wasn't their time, and He was and is working a purpose of the ages.
I believe He is calling out an elect who HE gives the faith to believe, and the desire to "search out a matter"*. Then this priesthood of believers (kings) will be instrumental in the next age as God establishes His kingdom and renews all.
*It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings. Pr 25:2
:cloud9: :cloud9: Amen! You said it James!
..also, I was just thinking a short while ago, about something :dontknow: that He doesn't make it easy! lol.
Quote from: Dandelion on July 13, 2019, 01:42:56 PM
I think about this, too. Even if you don't think of it in terms of 'corruption', there are passages in the Bible, that sometimes seem to contradict other passages. I am beginning to think that God has allowed this, deliberately ( Isn't everything that happens allowed or initiated by Him? )
to give people opportunities to decide who God truly is; what side of the fence they want to stand on; how they choose to interpret the Bible, bringing them to conclusions about life, God, and their own journey down here. God did not have to give us this journey....He chose to. He did not need to see what we would do....He could have played out the whole trip in His own mind, and then just put us where He wanted us to be. The journey, as I increasingly see it, is for us, individually, and collectively. For us to get to know who we really are....for us to shape and influence each other; for us to grow and be transformed. It is a journey for us to get to know Him. "Who do men say that I am? You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."
Are we searching for TRUTH? What price are we willing to pay for it? What if everyone around us say that we are demonic because of where our journey seems to be taking us? God is watching us deal with these issues.
Recently a Pastor, whom I greatly admired, told me I was listening to the devil, when I attempted to talk to him about my UR beliefs. I have not been back to that church, since. I knew many of the people there....I liked everything about that church.....but, now I must deal with my decisions. I know God is listening to my conversations, but most importantly, my heart. I know He hears my prayers for guidance.
I think about how generations of people have lived with this discrepancy. How could a God who has pledged unfailing love allow people to go to hell? A God who created us in His own image and likeness. A God who counts every hair on our head. A God whom Paul says that not even death can seperate us from His love? A God who knitted us, in our mother's womb? Most might well never question this. I didn't......until someone discussed their viewpoint with me. At first, I almost wished I never thought of this possibility....it opened up so many possible roads, some of which seemed scary. I wasn't sure I was willing to explore all this. I didn't want a new crossroad in my journey.... I felt I had had too many, already. Yet, I could not resist the thought.....that was the God I knew! A God who would truly never leave us, or abandon us. The God who had continually asked me to love and forgive, even when it was difficult and painful to do so. The God of the Prodigal Son story, the God who left the 99 for the 1. Yes! There He was!
So, here I am, talking to you.
I hope you all can understand my train of thought. I know I can get convoluted at times. :drama:
D.
That was SO beautiful!! Oh my! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote
Great thought process, Maria Glen! Thanks.
D
thank you :gsmile:
..And amen Rose and Jugghead.. as always :girlheart:
What a blessing these posts in this thread!
Amen!
D.
Quote from: jugghead on July 13, 2019, 02:13:43 AM
Can we fully understand what it means to be saved if we haven't been subjected to corruption, and can we fully understand how much He truly loves us by saving
and forgiving us from that corruption?
We were all subject to vanity so that He would save and forgive all.
My :2c:
I.M.O this is why Paul points out that if this life is all there is to why we were created, then we should be pitied most of all.
He then summarizes the gospel about how ALL coming to know the truth in their appointed time.
We only seem to appreciate things properly/fully when we go through experiences which teach us what is truly valuable, and what is temporary. Ergo why we are to lay up treasures/values in heaven not on earth.
I.M.O we corrupt/misinterpret things to justify our level of understanding and convince ourselves of where we are and why we were made.
God strips this away and plants the truth as we grow.
Quote from: Dandelion on July 13, 2019, 01:42:56 PM
I think about this, too. Even if you don't think of it in terms of 'corruption', there are passages in the Bible, that sometimes seem to contradict other passages. I am beginning to think that God has allowed this, deliberately ( Isn't everything that happens allowed or initiated by Him? )
to give people opportunities to decide who God truly is; what side of the fence they want to stand on; how they choose to interpret the Bible, bringing them to conclusions about life, God, and their own journey down here. God did not have to give us this journey....He chose to. He did not need to see what we would do....He could have played out the whole trip in His own mind, and then just put us where He wanted us to be. The journey, as I increasingly see it, is for us, individually, and collectively. For us to get to know who we really are....for us to shape and influence each other; for us to grow and be transformed. It is a journey for us to get to know Him. "Who do men say that I am? You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."
Are we searching for TRUTH? What price are we willing to pay for it? What if everyone around us say that we are demonic because of where our journey seems to be taking us? God is watching us deal with these issues.
Recently a Pastor, whom I greatly admired, told me I was listening to the devil, when I attempted to talk to him about my UR beliefs. I have not been back to that church, since. I knew many of the people there....I liked everything about that church.....but, now I must deal with my decisions. I know God is listening to my conversations, but most importantly, my heart. I know He hears my prayers for guidance.
I think about how generations of people have lived with this discrepancy. How could a God who has pledged unfailing love allow people to go to hell? A God who created us in His own image and likeness. A God who counts every hair on our head. A God whom Paul says that not even death can seperate us from His love? A God who knitted us, in our mother's womb? Most might well never question this. I didn't......until someone discussed their viewpoint with me. At first, I almost wished I never thought of this possibility....it opened up so many possible roads, some of which seemed scary. I wasn't sure I was willing to explore all this. I didn't want a new crossroad in my journey.... I felt I had had too many, already. Yet, I could not resist the thought.....that was the God I knew! A God who would truly never leave us, or abandon us. The God who had continually asked me to love and forgive, even when it was difficult and painful to do so. The God of the Prodigal Son story, the God who left the 99 for the 1. Yes! There He was!
So, here I am, talking to you.
I hope you all can understand my train of thought. I know I can get convoluted at times. :drama:
D.
Hi D, :drama: it's not preaching when the Spirit of love in you is the second witness to the Spirit of love in me
IN AGREEMENT
I too love your beautiful faith sis D!! :HeartThrob:
re;isn't it more logical to assume the church has been right all along?I think it's more logical to assume God has been right all along....
and all men have been hard pressed to understand.. In the beginning...did God allow the adversary to'corrupt' His word to Adam
and Eve? Has there not always been false prophets,false[lying]signs etc that are adversarial to His prophets,miracles signs?
Life and death is before you...choose life.
are we 'loving the truth' or 'loving the lie?" what we 'love' shows our heart motives. The 'decieved' truly don't know their right hand from
their left.If...we say we see...after He has spoken to us[truth]..and rejected what He has spoken[truth]...our error will remain....
because His revealed 'Word"of truth...would have set us free from the error.
There are truly those who know NOT God....and KNOW NOT WHO they worship. But PRAISE GOD and rejoice in Jesus Christ....
the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN..who will saveus and deliver us from all the power of the enemy. Who chose mercy over judgement unto
eternal condemnation. :2c:
p.s. in 1973...at the age of 17.....I rejected the salvation of all men.Thirty years later I gladly accepted it.I guess you could say
He knew how to preserve me for correction,in that matter.I rejected it on a'works based gospel of salvation"it was only when all my
religious works were burned up" and shown as dross..that I was able to accept His grace/mercy salvation.. :2c:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on July 15, 2019, 07:57:27 PM
p.s. in 1973...at the age of 17.....I rejected the salvation of all men.Thirty years later I gladly accepted it.I guess you could say
He knew how to preserve me for correction,in that matter.I rejected it on a'works based gospel of salvation"it was only when all my
religious works were burned up" and shown as dross..that I was able to accept His grace/mercy salvation.. :2c:
For me, it was around 1971 at the age of 13 when I got down on my knees for the first time after watching Billy Grahams "left behind series" of which I now understand, fear was the motive for me getting on my knees. it was not love drawing me in.
Not until 2005, 34 years later, He touch my heart, but it wasn't until 2007 that even the possibility of the salvation of all had firm roots.
The rest is history (His Story/my testimony) of what He has done for me.
No words exist to express how thankful we are. :2c:
He took His time with us, so logically will do so with everyone else at their time.
Revelations 22.11 is a clincher for me.
Also 1 Cor 15.23 of course.
It makes perfect sense that God would use the temporary things [time is short ] to do the amazing( short work in righteousness) in Our Lord Jesus Christ to bring in the eternal glory !!!
It is the Father and the Son and all that has been gathered in Him all ready and adding daily that make the HOLY SPIRIT SO POWERFULLY GLORIOUS !!
we are experiencing the fruits of our loving Father , God and in our loving living body of JESUS CHRIST gathered and under the headship and authority already !! and more of the grace of God increases as does iniquity abound , the grace of God abounds the more ,
I do not think folks know the FULL power of Gods sacrifice of His perfect SON for mankind yet!! NOR THE glorious weight of defeating DEATH BY THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION !!
becoming all of mankind's resurrection LIFE in by and for and though HIM ONLY WOWZA!!! and it is GODS CALLING not of our own !!
the gifts are irrevocable, not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.
I dont know why but the Holy Spirit has had me in the finished work of the Cross of Jesus Christ this week already because of faith becoming tested beyond its ability to love the world as GOD DOES !
We are to hate evil and sin , but learn we are not to hate any man !!!! hating anyone makes us murderers!!! and no murderer can enter the kingdom of heaven , flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom , the flood of lies the devil uses is in our earthly bodies and hinders the Spirit of Life working in us if we let it , by dwelling on earthly things .!!
satan is angry and KNOWS his time is short [temporary realm ] ! but to me this is when
JESUS CHRIST MAKES it a short work in righteousness ! [temporary realm ]because we are to keep our eyes and minds and thoughts on the things above namely on our Lord Jesus Christ for the salvation of all men especially for those that believe in the power of GOD though our Lord Jesus Christ and His resurrection becoming our resurrection also ! by the power of the CROSS and dying to self , that easily offend and prideful and hinders the HOLY SPIRIT from being revealed by the blinded eyes of darkness keeping the land in its captivity , but those that will hear His VOICE in that darkness [grave, body of death ] will LIVE !!
and every knee will bow and tongue will confess to GODS GLORY IN AND THOUGH THE SON bringing many sons to the same glory being revealed .
wow , we are on the cusp of something wonderful !! as GOD knows how to save anyone at any time and in any way possible , nothing is impossible with God , GLORY TO GOD for His love and mercy and grace on a dying world that makes all things new and complete in HIMSELF .
Really have to rest in this holy help and hope and keep it alive , those that endure to the end of all things will be saved !
some die when they see the son of man coming in power and glory but will LIVE because of Him , kept under the law of sin and death , alter , TILL THEY HEAR HIS VOICE AND WILL LIVE , but many whom are alive because they believe in the power of GOD by the SON and hear His voice , we LIVE and will NEVER DIE !! CAN YOU BELIEVE IT !!! :dsunny: :cloud9: :girlheart:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Ross on July 16, 2019, 06:28:18 AM
He took His time with us, so logically will do so with everyone else at their time.
Revelations 22.11 is a clincher for me.
Amen , haters gotta hate , speaking the truth in love makes them get the focus off their hate in others and begin to hate on you !!
to hate is the same as a murderer and no murderer will enter the kingdom of God only those whose names are written in the lamb's book of Life are living in TRUTH ..
rev 22 Jesus is Coming
...10 Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11 Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy."
12"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.!!
LOVE GOD and everyone as we do ourselves and LIVE!! LOVE never dies and GOD IS LOVE . we know God because we LOVE above all else and desire the salvation for all as the same for own ourselves !!!!!!!!!! :HeartThrob:
Interesting how we, humans, try to down-play some words.
For example; never; at no time,not ever, not at all, on no occasion.
1 Cor 13;8 states that love NEVER fails- yet man goes at great length to dispute that.
Then nothing; not at all, in no way, no amount,
Romans 8 nothing can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Even states the exhaustive list which covers every base and not one of those things will win.
Glad love is patient.
Quote from: Ross on July 16, 2019, 01:30:29 PM
Interesting how we, humans, try to down-play some words.
For example; never; at no time,not ever, not at all, on no occasion.
1 Cor 13;8 states that love NEVER fails- yet man goes at great length to dispute that.
Then nothing; not at all, in no way, no amount,
Romans 8 nothing can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Even states the exhaustive list which covers every base and not one of those things will win.
Glad love is patient.
Amen , I have told those haters of truth , of the salvation of all though Jesus Christ , and they have made a laughingstock of this and it is heartbreaking :sigh:
Quote from: sheila on July 15, 2019, 06:43:39 PM
re;isn't it more logical to assume the church has been right all along?I think it's more logical to assume God has been right all along....
and all men have been hard pressed to understand.. In the beginning...did God allow the adversary to'corrupt' His word to Adam
and Eve?
..I never thought of that. SO true! :thumbsup:
Quote
Has there not always been false prophets,false[lying]signs etc that are adversarial to His prophets,miracles signs?
Life and death is before you...choose life.
are we 'loving the truth' or 'loving the lie?" what we 'love' shows our heart motives. The 'decieved' truly don't know their right hand from
their left.If...we say we see...after He has spoken to us[truth]..and rejected what He has spoken[truth]...our error will remain....
because His revealed 'Word"of truth...would have set us free from the error.
There are truly those who know NOT God....and KNOW NOT WHO they worship. But PRAISE GOD and rejoice in Jesus Christ....
the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN..who will saveus and deliver us from all the power of the enemy. Who chose mercy over judgement unto
eternal condemnation. :2c:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Ross on July 16, 2019, 06:28:18 AM
He took His time with us, so logically will do so with everyone else at their time.
....
:thumbsup: :iagree: Makes a lot of sense to me..
Quote from: Ross on July 16, 2019, 01:30:29 PM
Interesting how we, humans, try to down-play some words.
For example; never; at no time,not ever, not at all, on no occasion.
1 Cor 13;8 states that love NEVER fails- yet man goes at great length to dispute that.
Then nothing; not at all, in no way, no amount,
Romans 8 nothing can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Even states the exhaustive list which covers every base and not one of those things will win.
Glad love is patient.
Amen!! :thumbsup: