What about this hell ?

[V.I.D.]

This is hard and loong stuff ..Its not mine.  WARNING! Be carefull with this one !
I dont know why i allways discuss the hardest topics .What realy concenred me with this article is that i got to it exacly after i went in my strangest period yet . I was unhappy with God because it seemed that there is lots of pain here yet He doesnt do enything and denied Him and wanted to go apart from Him .Then this article apeared and after i read this ,you have no idea how i felt . Every single thought of being apart from Him made me regret what i did say . I dont know if it is because of a carnal reason that i did this ,but i hope not .
Lets get to the point do ..This guy has an interview with J. P. MORELAND .He is talking about an interesting concept of an eternal hell .I will send a link to the thing ,because i cant make such a long post here in Tentmaker (it just doesnt allow it ).

http://www.geocities.com/lauho08/a_loving_god_does_not_torture_people_in_hell.html

[Jerm]

I've read this section from Strobel's book and this was actually my belief about Hell for quite a long time.  Although the it is much "nicer" and seems more just than the idea of an everlasting barbeque, there are still many problems with this argument.  For one, if hell is a quarantine of sorts, a place for those who want nothing to do with God, what is so bad about it?  Moreland states that the torment of hell is the eternal banishment from the prescence of God.  Well, if that's what these people really want (which I sincerely doubt because God has some horrible public relations people i.e. the church and if what the protrait portrayed by most of the church throughout history was the only one I saw, I wouldn't love God either) they should enjoy themselves in hell, right?  "But God is the most wonderful being in existence and to be banished from Him forever would be absolute torment, in other words hell" is the argument that would pop up then.  Well, if they are in torment because they are banished away from God, then they must not really want "nothing to do with Him," right?

Another problem I noticed is Moreland's stance on conversion after death.  He states that if a person saw the Judgment Throne after death, their repentance would be motivated by fear and thus wouldn't be a sincere conversion.  After reading this again, I cannot begin to explain how frustrating it is.  This is the exact circumstances that that so many Christains found themselves in when they first believe.  Somebody tells them that they are a sinner and that they will go to hell if they don't believe in Jesus.  If this is the case, then their belief isn't motivated by a love for God or a sincere desire for a relationship with Jesus.  Instead, it's motivate by fear!  They're scared to death that God will roast them forever so the choose to believe in Christ so they don't go to hell.  That isn't love, that's survival instinct!  If you follow Moreland's logic here, then the vast majority of Christians are not really saved because their conversion was motivated by fear, not love.

Finally, the number one problem with this argument is the fact that it still puts man's power and will over God's.  Moreland constantly states that God gave man free will and won't (or can't) violate it.  I'm sorry but I am so sick of hearing this argument.  I don't have children yet but when I do, if I ever see them walking towards a busy street, you better bet your life I'm going to "violate their free will" and yank them away from it faster than you can blink.  That's why it's called salvation.  We were in danger (which is quite the understatment) and God stepped in to save us from that danger.  What firefighter waits for a victim's permission before rescuing them from a fire or what lifegaurd waits for a drowning swimmer's permssion before rescuing them?  I don't want to be responsible for my salvation.  I would much rather trust God to do it. 

Like I said earlier, Moreland's view of hell is definately closer to the love of God than the hell-fire-and-brimstoners but it's still not quite there.

[jabcat]

Like your post Jerm.  Good job  :thumbsup:.

[V.I.D.]

Ditto that .
Realy good explanation .
O do it may relieve some pain a bit i do doubt how things realy are .There are so many thoughts of what hell is realy like that i just cant seem to pick eny (and if there realy is eny such thing as hell).I would have confidence in someone that realy was there to see how things are ,but i dont know who has met God in real .In NDE-s things are even more colorfull . Lots and lots of hells in some there is not a hell ,in some there is and things sound somewhat close to a ferry tail.I still am curious .

[ChuckK3]

I've read this section from Strobel's book and this was actually my belief about Hell for quite a long time.  Although the it is much "nicer" and seems more just than the idea of an everlasting barbeque, there are still many problems with this argument.  For one, if hell is a quarantine of sorts, a place for those who want nothing to do with God, what is so bad about it?  Moreland states that the torment of hell is the eternal banishment from the prescence of God.  Well, if that's what these people really want (which I sincerely doubt because God has some horrible public relations people i.e. the church and if what the protrait portrayed by most of the church throughout history was the only one I saw, I wouldn't love God either) they should enjoy themselves in hell, right?  "But God is the most wonderful being in existence and to be banished from Him forever would be absolute torment, in other words hell" is the argument that would pop up then.  Well, if they are in torment because they are banished away from God, then they must not really want "nothing to do with Him," right?

Another problem I noticed is Moreland's stance on conversion after death.  He states that if a person saw the Judgment Throne after death, their repentance would be motivated by fear and thus wouldn't be a sincere conversion.  After reading this again, I cannot begin to explain how frustrating it is.  This is the exact circumstances that that so many Christains found themselves in when they first believe.  Somebody tells them that they are a sinner and that they will go to hell if they don't believe in Jesus.  If this is the case, then their belief isn't motivated by a love for God or a sincere desire for a relationship with Jesus.  Instead, it's motivate by fear!  They're scared to death that God will roast them forever so the choose to believe in Christ so they don't go to hell.  That isn't love, that's survival instinct!  If you follow Moreland's logic here, then the vast majority of Christians are not really saved because their conversion was motivated by fear, not love.

Finally, the number one problem with this argument is the fact that it still puts man's power and will over God's.  Moreland constantly states that God gave man free will and won't (or can't) violate it.  I'm sorry but I am so sick of hearing this argument.  I don't have children yet but when I do, if I ever see them walking towards a busy street, you better bet your life I'm going to "violate their free will" and yank them away from it faster than you can blink.  That's why it's called salvation.  We were in danger (which is quite the understatment) and God stepped in to save us from that danger.  What firefighter waits for a victim's permission before rescuing them from a fire or what lifegaurd waits for a drowning swimmer's permssion before rescuing them?  I don't want to be responsible for my salvation.  I would much rather trust God to do it. 

Like I said earlier, Moreland's view of hell is definately closer to the love of God than the hell-fire-and-brimstoners but it's still not quite there.

Excellent rebuttal!!  :thumbsup:

Moreland also quoted more or less that "Hell is not full of repentenant people who God refuses to save because they "had their chance", but rather people in hell don't want to repent." HELLO??????   Did the prodigal son have that mindset when he went on his vagabond only to end up in a famine, broke and penniless, and consigned to work in a pigpen?  Heck no!  He acknowledged that his father's servants ate better than him at that moment, so he was willing to offer himself to his own father as a servant.  Of course the father welcomed him home with open arms and threw a big party for him. He did not give his son this "You buttered your bread now you have to eat it" attitude.  Moreland might as well reject the scriptures that say that when there is judgement in the world, the people learn righteousness.

And like you said, if the wicked want to be bansihed from God, why would they be tormented?  They would only be tormented if they were denied access to a God they wanted to be in the presence of in the first place.  Jesus said "If any man come unto me, in no wise I will cast him out."  I can just picture an atheist being tormented because he was banished from God.  LOL!!!!!!  Unless his impression of God was that of a tyrannical monster, he would most likely repent.


Chuck

[Cardinal]

Finally, the number one problem with this argument is the fact that it still puts man's power and will over God's.  Moreland constantly states that God gave man free will and won't (or can't) violate it.  I'm sorry but I am so sick of hearing this argument.  I don't have children yet but when I do, if I ever see them walking towards a busy street, you better bet your life I'm going to "violate their free will" and yank them away from it faster than you can blink.  That's why it's called salvation.  We were in danger (which is quite the understatment) and God stepped in to save us from that danger.  What firefighter waits for a victim's permission before rescuing them from a fire or what lifegaurd waits for a drowning swimmer's permssion before rescuing them?  I don't want to be responsible for my salvation.  I would much rather trust God to do it. 

:cloud9: Did you ever think about how He walked up to complete strangers (the disciples) and with few words told them to leave everything and everyone behind and they immediately did it? Where was THEIR free will?

Looks more like when He said to them to bring Him a donkey wherein no man had sat? Need a disciple? No, problem. I can get the carnal ass nature to let Me ride it in submission, anytime I please. He both calls us and KEEPS us, it is not of ourselves; whether we stand or we fall, it's to do His good pleasure. Judas, that which you must do, do quickly. And on and on and on......Blessings....

[sven]

I haven't read it and will not do it, but I think I can suppose this concept

amazingly there are people who can endless torment make sound like nothing horrible at all, but the point is "hell" at a certain degree would no longer be "hell", the punishment no more longer a punishment, men have no immortality inherent, all concepts of hell are more or less based on the idea human conscience can never cease to exist.

an idea of hell I could imagine is that of sheol or hades, that the spirits of the wicked continue to exist as kind of shadows, without rememberance of the earthly life, brainless zombies wandering in the dark abodes of hades, not suffering but also having no joy, but this is also a concept that makes no sense.

[jabcat]

Finally, the number one problem with this argument is the fact that it still puts man's power and will over God's.  Moreland constantly states that God gave man free will and won't (or can't) violate it.  I'm sorry but I am so sick of hearing this argument.  I don't have children yet but when I do, if I ever see them walking towards a busy street, you better bet your life I'm going to "violate their free will" and yank them away from it faster than you can blink.  That's why it's called salvation.  We were in danger (which is quite the understatment) and God stepped in to save us from that danger.  What firefighter waits for a victim's permission before rescuing them from a fire or what lifegaurd waits for a drowning swimmer's permssion before rescuing them?  I don't want to be responsible for my salvation.  I would much rather trust God to do it. 

:cloud9: Did you ever think about how He walked up to complete strangers (the disciples) and with few words told them to leave everything and everyone behind and they immediately did it? Where was THEIR free will?

Looks more like when He said to them to bring Him a donkey wherein no man had sat? Need a disciple? No, problem. I can get the carnal ass nature to let Me ride it in submission, anytime I please. He both calls us and KEEPS us, it is not of ourselves; whether we stand or we fall, it's to do His good pleasure. Judas, that which you must do, do quickly. And on and on and on......Blessings....

:mlaugh:    :thumbsup:



Quote - "He both calls us and KEEPS us, it is not of ourselves; whether we stand or we fall, it's to do His good pleasure."

That's the one!  :2thumbs:

[Shadow]

...

[Jerm]

Thanks for the kudos  :thumbsup:  Cardinal got me thinking of other examples of people's "free will" getting messed with in Scripture.  The most perfect example I can think of is Paul.  Jesus did appear him and say "You should really stop doing that, you know.  Tell you what, I'll give you a chance to repent of your wicked ways.  If you do, you'll not only be saved but I'll make you my Apostle to the Gentiles.  But it's up to you."  No, instead, the Lord appeared, knocked some sense into him and then He chose Paul (not the other way around) for His purpose. 

[Pierac]

Thanks for the kudos  :thumbsup:  Cardinal got me thinking of other examples of people's "free will" getting messed with in Scripture.  The most perfect example I can think of is Paul.  Jesus did appear him and say "You should really stop doing that, you know.  Tell you what, I'll give you a chance to repent of your wicked ways.  If you do, you'll not only be saved but I'll make you my Apostle to the Gentiles.  But it's up to you."  No, instead, the Lord appeared, knocked some sense into him and then He chose Paul (not the other way around) for His purpose. 

Indeed! Jesus knocked Paul off his Ass! (Donkey)  :mblush: 

:laughing7:
Paul

[Jerm]

Thanks for the kudos  :thumbsup:  Cardinal got me thinking of other examples of people's "free will" getting messed with in Scripture.  The most perfect example I can think of is Paul.  Jesus did appear him and say "You should really stop doing that, you know.  Tell you what, I'll give you a chance to repent of your wicked ways.  If you do, you'll not only be saved but I'll make you my Apostle to the Gentiles.  But it's up to you."  No, instead, the Lord appeared, knocked some sense into him and then He chose Paul (not the other way around) for His purpose. 

Indeed! Jesus knocked Paul off his Ass! (Donkey)  :mblush: 

:laughing7:
Paul

:laughing7:  :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

[jabcat]

OK, I've got to do a "dirty deed".  It's fairly obvious where I personally stand.  Howevah...I must suggest we steer away from the free will discussion at this point and get back to the OP...(I know, I know, it goes together, don't yell at me  :OhNo:), but as that topic is off-limits for one group, then it must be for the other (including me   :CryBaby:).   Sorry, just doin' what I'm supposed t'do before the fight begins.   To counter-balance, there are many on here that see it the other way, and they can present many reasons why they see it the way they do.  Now, back to "this hell"...:Peace2:

[Jerm]

Sorry bout that jabcat, won't happen again, Scout's honor (Hmm, do you have to actually be a scout to declare scout's honor....)

[Cardinal]

OK, I've got to do a "dirty deed".  To know where I personally stand, I agree with every word Cardinal spoke in her last post.  Howevah...I must suggest we steer away from the free will discussion at this point and get back to the OP...(I know, I know, it goes together, don't yell at me  :OhNo:), but as that topic is off-limits for one group, then it must be for the other (including me   :CryBaby:).   Sorry, just doin' what I'm supposed t'do before the fight begins.   To counter-balance, there are many on here that see it the other way, and they can present many reasons why they see it the way they do.  Now, back to "this hell"...:Peace2:

:cloud9: And I thought this was a commercial-free board. My bad. :mshock: :winkgrin: :mrflo:

PS. Just making sure you know I'm just joshing you Jab..... :girlheart:

[jabcat]

And now a word from our sponsor.

"Hi.  I'm Gary Armor-all.  Have you been jabbed lately by Jerms, and joshed at by those pesky Cardinals?  Well I've got Good News for you..."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: ROFLOL...... :grin:

[Jerm]

And now a word from our sponsor.

"Hi.  I'm Gary Armor-all.  Have you been jabbed lately by Jerms, and joshed at by those pesky Cardinals?  Well I've got Good News for you..."

Well, I don't know if I'd call it "jabbing" per se, but rather......okay it's jabbing, I'll go sit in the corner now

[Livelystone]

At 7am on Tuesday mornings I meet with a few men who are doing this book as their current group exercise. We are just doing the Moreland interview part where the ultimate death and hell is thrown into the LOF....... I pointed out to them how that the death and hell part of what people find themselves in is what is going to destroyed in the LOF........ it is the final correction.

Hell I have pointed out to them in the Bible as an example is what the fire was called at the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem (the church) and as long as the garbage kept coming from the church there would be fuel for the fire.

Half of this small group goes to the local community church ( one is an elder there) where my recent fall out with the pastor over their teachings is very well known....... to this church clergy I am "troubled and a trouble maker" but in the last 18 months since I returned to this much smaller group there is a shift taking place in their certainty concerning what they have been taught about the things of God versus what I say.

On another positive note the leader of the group who pastors at a different church was the man that Baptized me back in 01 but then in 04 told my ill Father that he considered me to be an end time false prophet and that point needed to be understood by all........ now besides him and the others always looking to hear my take on things I know there is a lot of "soul searching" going on within in this group....... Praise the Lord who works in mysterious ways.

Unfortunately there are a couple there that are not about to hear anything different than what they have always been taught.

Blessings

Doug

[jabcat]

And now a word from our sponsor.

"Hi.  I'm Gary Armor-all.  Have you been jabbed lately by Jerms, and joshed at by those pesky Cardinals?  Well I've got Good News for you..."

Well, I don't know if I'd call it "jabbing" per se, but rather......okay it's jabbing, I'll go sit in the corner now

I said "jabbing" because of "jab"cat  (:eeew:, that smells)....it's good bro, just messin' around.  Love and agree with your posts  :thumbsup:.

[Cardinal]

At 7am on Tuesday mornings I meet with a few men who are doing this book as their current group exercise. We are just doing the Moreland interview part where the ultimate death and hell is thrown into the LOF....... I pointed out to them how that the death and hell part of what people find themselves in is what is going to destroyed in the LOF........ it is the final correction.

Hell I have pointed out to them in the Bible as an example is what the fire was called at the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem (the church) and as long as the garbage kept coming from the church there would be fuel for the fire.

Half of this small group goes to the local community church ( one is an elder there) where my recent fall out with the pastor over their teachings is very well known....... to this church clergy I am "troubled and a trouble maker" but in the last 18 months since I returned to this much smaller group there is a shift taking place in their certainty concerning what they have been taught about the things of God versus what I say.

On another positive note the leader of the group who pastors at a different church was the man that Baptized me back in 01 but then in 04 told my ill Father that he considered me to be an end time false prophet and that point needed to be understood by all........ now besides him and the others always looking to hear my take on things I know there is a lot of "soul searching" going on within in this group....... Praise the Lord who works in mysterious ways.

Unfortunately there are a couple there that are not about to hear anything different than what they have always been taught. Blessings Doug

:cloud9: God will eventually work that seed into bearing fruit. Sometimes it's immediate, sometimes it takes awhile. Good to hear it is starting to produce some fruit.  :thumbsup: Blessings...

[Jerm]

And now a word from our sponsor.

"Hi.  I'm Gary Armor-all.  Have you been jabbed lately by Jerms, and joshed at by those pesky Cardinals?  Well I've got Good News for you..."

Well, I don't know if I'd call it "jabbing" per se, but rather......okay it's jabbing, I'll go sit in the corner now

I said "jabbing" because of "jab"cat  (:eeew:, that smells)....it's good bro, just messin' around.  Love and agree with your posts  :thumbsup:.

Ahhh, gotcha.  Cool deal, no worries  :thumbsup:

[Doc]

Well, I've gotta ask the Martin Zender question; "Which hell would that be?"