Universalism - is it burden or joy?

[B_T]

Hello,

You may wonder why I opened this thread. When I embraced Universalism last year, I was happy. I was very happy. I knew there was no hell. I knew there was no need to fear. It was OK...
However, I realized all the problems my new belief brought into my life. For example, I have told my girlfriend that I believe that many people will be saved, but I never told her that I don't believe in everlasting hell, I believe in the ultimate salvation of all people. I feel that this is the girl God has predestined for my wife, but the fact I believe in a different doctrine stands on my way to her as a wall. Do you understand me? Whatever... Sometimes I want to tell her that I'm different. I'm not like the other people. But what will happen then?
One day I shared the real good news with some of my scarevangelical friends. Their reaction was predictable: "This is a new gospel, it's a very dangerous teaching, hell exists and it's everlasting because the Bible teaches it"...
So is Universalism joy or burden? Right now I feel it's the second. Sometimes I wish I was like the others. But I'm not.

[Taffy]

Yo

show me a scripture which states the understanding of UR is a pre- requisite to salvation Brother...

well dont bother..it aint There eph 2..thats all youll find.

Never the less, BLESSED( HAPPY) are those who do Understand UR. bro..Please dont let this all be a BRIDGE to far for you Both..we are Not saved by KNOWLEDGE..we are saved by the LIGHT of it....share what you have in common and if GOD wills  you come to common GROUND, let that Be Christ , the HIDDEN man of the HEART... THEN HAPPY are you BOTH.

Taffy

[Nathan]

For me, this is where "counting the cost" comes into play . . .as does the passage "many are called, few are chosen"  Many are called into these unimaginable rooms of revelational glory.  This was the Rock that Jesus was so excited about building on.  It can't be taught, it doesn't come from flesh and blood . . . earth dwellers can not see or feel any of it.  It sounds to me that God clearly has called you . . .now . .let him "choose" you also.  The reason many are called but not chosen is because they reject the kingdom they're being called into.  God's not calling you into salvation . . .that's free.  There's no need to count the cost for that.  But "this" . . . totally different story because people here have had to leave churches . .families, relationships . . all that they once cherished had to be given up because God has something greater beyond what we can see.  But if we hang on to what we can see, we'll never enter into what we can't see.

Let the change in you speak for you.  You don't need to use words . . . you don't need to convince or defend anyone of anything.  No denomination could ever mature you like the spirit of truth can.  No doctrine can ever free you like the spirit of Light can.  The more I look at what I was trying to hold on to, the more I realize . ..  it couldn't sustain me if I stayed anyway.  Are you willing to go back?  I'm guessing, you've already passed the point of no return, you just don't realize it yet.  I'm a Pastor, I'm in a denomination, I have to pick and choose my words carefully otherwise, I'll be asked to leave.  I figure, God called me here, when it's time to go, he'll have me go . .but until then, I'm going to go full-bore as long as I can with what I see . . . this is the best time of my life.  there is nothing than invigorates me more to see a flame turn into a fire, and see that fire turn into a blaze . .and everyone in the room is lit up in truth . . . tradtions and religions can't hold a candle against the glory of truth.

Pursue the light calling to you . ..let the rest take care of itself.

Blessings
Crowbar

[martincisneros]

Joy & Burden

I know me.  I'm speaking for me and for nobody else in this, but I know that I wouldn't have made it into my thirties without a suicide attempt if I'd still believed in ET.

At the same time, the desire to be loved and to fit in and to simply have the rapidly growing Word of Faith ministry that I had prior to this Scriptural perspective. :sigh:

I feel that this is the girl God has predestined for my wife...

If this is certain, then God anticipated where He'd bring you in the selection of her, and it'll be less of a big deal than you're making it.  If you have the least doubt about this, wouldn't it be better to find out now than later and to face the pains of a divorce?

Overall, UR is more pleasure, joy of hope, personal sanctification, and cause for incessant worship than any kind of a burden although I do choose my words carefully around other Christians.  I can show my agreement up to the incarceration in the Lake of Fire.  It's what happens after that where I have a difference of opinion based on the very Scriptures they beleived in a "final judgment" from.

Final judgment is a stupid concept when you think it through.  As though Father would never ask us to do this and that in the future after that, and then want an accounting over it.  But that shows how stupid the ET paradigm makes people.  Though there aren't specific Scriptures, an eternity without future judgments means Father never showed us the riches of His grace in His kindness towards us "in the ages to come."  An increase in the manifestations of God's grace make some new level of works implicit for all of us.  And, if ET is true, then it's just a matter of time before it gets absolutely all of us, if they're going to be Biblically consistent with their mistranslated Bibles and traditions of men, because ET wouldn't just be about a particular individual judgment but would be the very paradigm of God.  Same difficulty for those who beleive in eternal destruction.  When's it going to get you?  In 50 years?  In 2000 years??

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hello,

You may wonder why I opened this thread. When I embraced Universalism last year, I was happy. I was very happy. I knew there was no hell. I knew there was no need to fear. It was OK...
However, I realized all the problems my new belief brought into my life. For example, I have told my girlfriend that I believe that many people will be saved, but I never told her that I don't believe in everlasting hell, I believe in the ultimate salvation of all people. I feel that this is the girl God has predestined for my wife, but the fact I believe in a different doctrine stands on my way to her as a wall. Do you understand me? Whatever... Sometimes I want to tell her that I'm different. I'm not like the other people. But what will happen then?
One day I shared the real good news with some of my scarevangelical friends. Their reaction was predictable: "This is a new gospel, it's a very dangerous teaching, hell exists and it's everlasting because the Bible teaches it"...
So is Universalism joy or burden? Right now I feel it's the second. Sometimes I wish I was like the others. But I'm not.

Your question is a good one.    I left a church and then went right back in because I could not stand that away from church I was no one to my friends.  I then realized how dirty I actually felt knowing that I compromised when I really believed in my heart to be accepted by men.   It was then and only then I understood joy in the midst of misery.

I will never tell someone who or who not to marry,  but what I can say is there is freedom in loss if you really believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind and he will accomplish that.

There is nothing wrong with being careful about when you drop the bombshell on people about what you believe.   Christians who sit amongst each other and all have a good time almost always sit with a common agreement of the existance of heaven and hell.   If anyone of them suddenly says such a thing so opposite their doctrine,  that person will no longer be among that group in the same manner unless you revert back to passive silence as the group goes on.   Most people would sit there in misery and suffering to compromise who they are for the sake of getting along in a study group.


Where I do agree there may be some things in a persons life that is ok to keep secret from someone, even a spouse,   I do not think in terms of spirituality that it is wise to  not have a conversation with your wife to be about this.   

[martincisneros]

If the subject of the restoration of all of humanity to God is all that God's given you that puts you at odds with other Christians, just focus on the fact that that's all that you have that puts you at odds with other Christians and rejoice.  Because if you ever felt like the pressure was just too much for you and you ran off from it for maybe 4 years or so, you'd know what your last genuinely happy, peaceful thought was in the UR context and would know what to return to, and it wouldn't be so much.  There are levels of growth where you immediately touch death if you step outside of the light that you've received from our Lord.  UR is an important part of a balanced prayer life, so I don't want to seem to demean that.  I don't think that one's sanctification can be complete without knowing UR 'cause it's the "sanctified unto..." part that's in peril where if you think you're called to serve all of humanity, "but not really" 'cause some of 'em are essentially burned toast anyway: that can mess you up and create the "I thank God that I'm not as other men" that you see with most Evangelicals.

Four years ago, I personally laid down some things doctrinally so that I could fit in as little as I have over the last 4 years with both Charismatics and URists.  And I've had 4 years of death leading to more and more death as a result.  So, for the last 9 days, as of when I'm typing this, I've essentially been in the Fortress of Solitude screaming out for my Father 'cause I was at my end on a few things.  From 2001 to 2004 I had zero limitations, except for things being really lonely 'cause of standing for some things that the rest of the Body, even in UR circles, couldn't understand.  It's amazing how much healing my body was going through since Saturday the 2nd of this month.  Scars started disappearing from my body -- really big scars.  Lots of other little aggrivations that after a while, you just start thinking that that's the best it's ever going to get.  But my body went through a full regeneration the whole time I was in my Fortress of Solitude in a very very cold place, personally, this past week.  And what for me was the morning of 08/08/08, I sorta saw this green crystal out of the corner of my eye that was glowing and I finally had peace that I hadn't had in about 4 years that it really doesn't matter if anybody else on the whole planet agrees with me about specific Words that I've received from our Lord.  What matters is whether or not I'm in agreement with God and with what He's told me to do.  What matters is whether or not I'm living a lifestyle that's consistent with the level of light that the Holy Spirit has given to me from the Scriptures.

If everybody else walks out, God's still prepared me for the Goliaths, or General Zods, that are unique to my destiny to take out in the inauguration of some things that must happen soon.  After a while, it doesn't matter what God's doing in the rest of the Church world, or even in the Church down the street.  It matters ultimately on where you'll fit in, but if He has done something precious in your life and has revealed some new aspect of His character, nature, purpose, provision, or some other area of His excellence, then if you're John banished to the isle of Patmos, can He count on you to be in the spirit on the Lord's Day?  I learned the hard way that if you lay down something important that He'd given you, He may even still talk to you every single day about other stuff, but He may allow a level of destruction to come into that area of your life where you'd put your hand to the plough and then turned away from that particular assignment.  Some would say that it's that we surrendered our protection when we took a step back from what He'd given us because of how the "full armour of God" works.  I've got about 3 or 4 other threads where I know that because of my schedule this past week that I've in all probability left a person or two hanging on some stuff, so I've gotta pray for a while until I'm reminded of where those particular threads are at.  So, I want to briefly say in closing that you've got to weigh the blessing, benefit, and meaning that UR has brought to you and whether or not that's at least one of the pearls of great price that you're going to sell everything to buy the field for.  Is UR the type of Mustard Seed that you'd like to see how big this plant can get, as it reaches the point of being a home to the birds of the air?  Is it the lit candle that you're willing to hide underneath something, or do you prefer that it give light to the whole house?  I'll be fully supportive of whatever decision you decide to make along those lines 'cause I know of the pressures, the costs, and the level of commitment required, and I know that nobody really builds their house without first counting the cost of completing it and then laying a good foundation.

For me, personally, God's taken me so far out of this world that I can't bring myself to take a step back into the past.  I only vaguely remember what a normal, natural-bound life looks like.  Where else shall we go since He's the One Who has the words of eonian life, right?  I personally like the beauty of the future more than the ugliness of the past.  Now that I'm whole again, after this past week, I just want to see what's further out there between me and God.  I can't go back to the basic introductory relationship type of scenario where I sorta know Him, but don't; where I sorta know His purposes, but don't, etc.  If these are the last words at these boards that anybody remotely understands from me, I can't settle for mediocrity.  I have to follow where the cloud is leading me during the day and where the pillar of fire is guiding by night.  I know for sure that God's not leading in any ET directions, whether to save face or whatever.  He may not deal as strictly with some of you about some things as He's dealing with me, but each of us are different parts of the One Body.  I'm fairly certain that it's His leading to pull the whole Body out of the former shadows of ET preaching, complicity with the damnation of the lost, etc.  Vengeance was His, Alone, at the Cross.  All we've got to do is celebrate it and live in Remembrance of it.

[WhiteWings]

IMO a relationship is based on honesty. Being open. Perhaps that's even more important than the love in the relationship.
When a partner holds back some important information there is no longer honesty. I think that will grow into something really bad lateron.
Do you want to suppress your feelings for the rest of your life? Have a nice chat about hell with your girlfriend and when she is out shopping you sneak to your stack of UR books hidden in the basement?
It's easy to say for the sideline but I think you must tell her.
Not telling her is an insult to her intelligence/intuition. She will find out eventually.
Perhaps she's easily converted to UR. Especially if the two of you are matched in Heaven (correct expression?) as you suggested/feel.
I expect to see a new user called Ms_B_T on this forum within a month!

:HeartThrob:  :gangel: :HeartThrob:

[B_T]

I expect to see a new user called Ms_B_T on this forum within a month!

Oh, no, don't expect that! She doesn't speak English :)

[dboutwell]

Hey B-T my friend :)

Maybe if you let them know that you will not accept UR if you find scripture to totally refute it, they might listen to what you have to say a little more. Throwing it out as a possibility or even something that you are curious about may encourage them to take you serious...and who knows they may start looking on their own.

Looking in the scriptures while trying to refute UR can be quite revealing.

God Bless  :HeartThrob:

Debbie

[reFORMer]

From since I can remember it seems the word from Genesis, "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone . . ." (2:18) has lurked in my awareness.  I unquestioningly thought that was an absolute for everybody and it just couldn't be good for me, even with God, because in the context that God spoke this, Adam already had God, just no "helper . . . counterpart," until God corrected me.  He said, "Not good for the Adam to be alone."  In Christ it is another creation.  We limit the unity of who and what we are if we stop by saying we are yet clothed with Adamic flesh, as though the body was only as Daniel described it, the sheath of the Spirit.  Yet we recognize in varying degrees we are somewhat between the two, we who, ". . . have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body." (Rom 8:23 CLV)

The Adam is an isolated soul in a dirt pod.  The Christ is, ". . . many, are one . . ." (1 Cor 121:12)  The real God is manifest in many.  If I know Him truly, it is not just in myself, but many others.  Yet to experience the bride in this period of apostasy is very much a challenge.  Once I was radically "saved," I was initially disposed of by my relatives because I wasn't of their denomination.  Seeking to hold to the entire body of Christ, as I then understood it, refusing to sectarianize, has caused rejection from other "brethren." over the years.  I believe in being committed locally, which in the 70's was in a non-denominational group that had both a brothers' house and a sisters' house for the younger believers who otherwise lived on their own.  This was what supposedly made us a cult:  community.  Here are three sayings I often repeat about what God has showed me in this area:  I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program, and nobody missed her.  I don't care how knowledgeable or gifted the man on stage is, he's not the body of Christ; and, JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!  You can be sure that the common man, the ordinary Christian love's to hear this; but, the "leaders" hate it and call me names.  How submission to the presence of the Holy Spirit is supposed to be anarchy is beyond me, unless they don't recognize Him present and all they have is other mediators.

The first doctrinal area I began to be rejected for was trying to find verses in the Bible I could quote that actually said what they were saying about "the rapture."  This has had me branded as a deceiver and imparter of devils.

That Jesus is the Savior of all, just as the Scripture says, means to very many that we aren't even Christians.  We're said to promote this doctrine because we want to continue in our sins.  People who don't even know me, have never asked me anything about it, repeat slanders around town here that I use Christianity to cover up my being gay.  I complained to God, asking what I should think about this.  He told me, "That's how they know me."

I just speak of whatever I feel led to everybody.  Whether a prophetic word or teaching about entering into resurrection without dying.  In the grocery store, the Post Office, the gas station . . . God has shown up in power at times.  I know that these doctrines, including Universal Restoration, are foundational and only first principles, nothing advanced, so I don't hold anything back unless I am directly led otherwise.  I don't have much of a regular "Bible Study/fellowship thingy" right now, though our home is open and we have occasions now and then.  I miss having such a "round table" interactive free for all.  God comforted me recently about that lack by saying He also talks to individuals.

We are in a time that a reformation greater than that of the mid 1500's is in progress.  The United States should catch up with the rest of the world by about 2010 when the Christians meeting in their homes becomes the majority here.  Throughout history we have periodically returned to our roots.  Things are going to change rapidly once this revival really hits.  How much of the fire is judgment I don't know; but, the USA won't any longer be recognizable as what it has been.  About half of those identifying as Christians and 70 % who call themselves professional Christian ministers in the USA do not believe in everlasting torture.  We definitely have the Scripture on our side.  For someone who attempts to answer objections to "The Good and Great Shepherd" saving the 99 + 1 = 100 % of the lost he came to seek and save, and all were lost, there is absolute certainty that those proposing such great evil against God as ceaseless torture have a total lack of evidence from Holy Writ.  Harder perhaps to make clear is the greater importance that to believe such permanent evils is to deny the revelation of God they have experienced.  Now one ever testifies to personally knowing Him as the "The Wonderful Master Torturer."  Their conscience seems to not allow them to be led to follow Him in His hideous works.

I used to be more concerned to get along with my fellow believers.  I haven't quit applying the Scripture that commands us to, "Be at peace with all men, as much as in us lies."  But, having gotten older, I want my life to count for God and His kingdom.  I want to rock the boat.  I care much more what God thinks of me.  Listen to what He told me:  "Who honors Me, I will honor."

Of all the church people in the world, much of which is in Babylonian captivity and against returning to build the temple of God that we are, do you really think their approval can even come close to God's approval in your life?  Any other human intimacy pales in comparison to entrance into Him.  I'm going for broke, as the saying goes . . .I'm puttin' all my eggs in one basket.  Maybe that's trite; but, I want to find out what it means to be His disciple.  It's not enough to come out of Egypt, we must come out of Babylon.  We must not be only of a mind to come out unto Him, but to enter in and possess the land, to there build the Temple of His presence.  All that He is and does is in us and will come into expression.  "This mortal MUST put on the immortal!"  GO FOR IT FOR ALL YOU'RE WORTH!  (Just keep our feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace.)


---James Rohde

[SeekerSA]

Probably one of the hardest thing of UR right now is the fact that we appear in the minority and folk seek safety in numbers - this is what Atheists refer to as sheeple and I tend to agree.

Well think of Jesus, He was the minority and look what happened - sadly the truth was corrupted with lies and pagan myths which is ess. what the Xian church defends - the myths.

In this season we enter in there is a whole lot of shakin' going on.  Once the chaff has fallen off and we see what is left standing then only can the real work begin.  UR is the starting blocks not the destination.

B_T I suspect you have embraced UR from an emotional standpoint but not yet cognitive or spiritually - I notice this in the subjects you raise here as if you need affirmation from us if it is true.  All we can share is what we see and believe, the real Revelator is God not the members of TMf We can answer questions to the best of our abilities and still miss it or convey the wrong message.  It does seem you are spending far too much time on Carm and Matt Slick's POV is not THE gospel merely his POV.

The ET camp is losing ground as folk are starting to see through the lies and deceit.  The snowball has only just started to roll down the hill.

Debbie gave some good advice.

Blessings