Article by Gary Amirault
There are many proofs for the wonderful teaching of the salvation of all mankind through the work of the cross by Jesus the Messiah. We have hundreds of them on our internet site (http://www.tentmaker.org)
A good starting point is the scholars corner (http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html).
There is a rather unique proof on a site that has invented a lot of material negative to this glorious teaching. That site is CARM (http://www.carm.org), Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry It is run by a Charismatic Calvinist named Matt Slick.
CARM is one of the largest Christian apologetics sites on the Internet. It hosts dozens of discussion boards (http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/index.php).
One can discuss just about anything there. One can discuss astrology, New Age, Satanism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventist and Christian cults of all kinds. One can discuss theological concepts and doctrines of all kinds. All religions from Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Bahi, Christadelphian, Free Masonry, Eastern Orthodox, Christian Scientist, Oneness Pentecostalism, Roman Catholicism, etc can be discussed. As a matter of fact, they have separate discussion rooms for each of these groups. There are separate discussion boards discussing abortions, Atheism, UFO's, and pregnancy. One can argue just about any theological concept and position ranging from Arminian, Calvinist, Word of Faith, etc. All is fair and game at Carm including witchcraft…. All except one topic…Universalism, the teaching that Jesus Christ is indeed the "Savior of the world," as the Scriptures plainly state. (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14)
Read full article here (http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html).
Wow, what a wonderful article!
And, yes, I have read a LOT of stuff on that CARM website and I am very upset that he has Universal Salvation banned from discussion there. Another website I go to has that website banned from being linked to or talked about -- but not for the same reason I don't go to that site anymore. :thumbdown:
I'm in prayer for that man.
The Scholars Corner was great, I've read that page several times lol, as well as the tons of other information listed. I love this place more everyday!! :happygrin: :bgdance:
The reason for UR being banned in CARM's discussion boards is simple: They are afraid the true teachings of the Bible would detract from the man-made priesthood system and transcendence of the church.
Further more, UR's "Blessed Hope" and the extension of salvation totally shatter Calvinism's narrow view of the select few and easily threaten the authenticity of their creeds that have been taught for long.
I hope Matt doesn't mean to deceive; he is just not yet exposed to the proper information like most of Christendom.
The scholar's corner is indeed loaded with convincing arguments and historical facts that strongly uphold UR theology. I specially pay homage to the collection of attestation of our early church fathers, who were close to original documents and by whom Christianity has survived and been passed down through generations.
I very much appreciate the love and gentle manner in which you speak even about those who oppose the truth of God's wonderful plan of restoration for all things. It shows that you truly know the heart of God.
I love all of the Tentmaker resources, and I had never heard of the teaching until my father turned me on to it. Finally a glimpse of the truth that my heart always knew was there. All one requires to believe and receive this message is to believe that God is who He says He is. He is perfect love. There is no darkness in Him at all. He is a loving Father, not a bloodthirsty tyrant. All punishment is for purification, and it has to make sense. Eternal torment makes no sense.
All of this written proof is invaluable, but there is only one way to be convinced. The Holy Spirit of God is the only worthy teacher, and He is the voice that has revealed the truth of this message to me. No matter what we find as proof or refutation His voice is the one we must heed.
The only reason is because the only way to disprove UR is to poorly translate the bible, or twist and make the scruptures more complicated than they really are. If you think about it, the bible is really the history of the fall of man, Gods mercy and the salvation of humanity past, present and future. For example, if you see aion as meaning Eternity, that would be a contradiction with "Every knee shall bow down and acknowledge Christ as their savior".(Not exact words, but the same point) But if one understand aion as meaning age, that makes sense. But our buddy St. Jerome made a little oopsie, which kinda caused more problems than necessary
I simply hAd to copy and paste all those great verses in your article, for ready reference! "It is impossible for God to lie"!
- Is God's GReat Plan of Salvation great enough to save all? To believe otherwise is to blaspheme His good and perfect nature! And perfection makes NO mistakes. How do we get into the "Lamb's Book of Life", according to Paul (and Jesus!) it is by "believing". Exactly when, does anyone hear the notorious words "those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will go to the 2nd death"? After all have experienced being resurrected, and after all have witnessed what must be a very long day of the examination of all things.. a long 'day' of review on all human history, etc, as to what went wrong.. what worked out well and what didn't (and never can).. WHO, after all that, isn't going to "believe"?
Im greatly disturbed by this comments fro mthe CARM website, it staes this & how can we say that forever & ever is not forever? Am i missing something or am I deluded that if the scriptures say forever yet im thinking otherwise, how can we twist forever to not been forever? My logic has to ask, but still my heart says for sure punishment is a period.
Im just basing what im saying there to these texts > Clearly, the phrase "forever and ever" is a correct translation of the Greek ""eis tous aionas ton aionon -- forever and ever" Every instance of the phrase shows eternality.
But, a word of caution. The Universalist may say that Rev. 19.3 is not eternal because it is the description of smoke from the City of Babylon. But, the judgment that is cast upon her is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked, indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.
The phrase is always speaking of eternal duration.
Universalism is incorrect because not all will be saved because:
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).
AND > Universalists place a great deal of weight on the word "aion," which means "age." From the Greek root "aion" we also have the word "aionion," which is translated in most instances in most Bibles as "eternal."
The significance of this is that Universalists maintain that there is no eternal punishment in hell fire. Therefore, they assert that the word "aionion" is in reference to "age duration" and can have temporal duration. With this assertion they try to substantiate their theological position that all people everywhere will ultimately be saved.
But, what do Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons have to say about the words and phrases used in Greek that are translated into the English "age", "world", "eternal," "forever", "forever and ever," etc.? Let's find out:
1.aion - , - age, world A."for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."1
2.aionion, aionios - - eternal A."aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude
:eek: Forever is forever how from the above evidence can we say it anyother way?
Mayb the inner witness of the HS tells us otherwise, but with so many written proof texts of forever meaning forever in the bible how did u ever twist it to an age of time? I know ur heart because it is mine too & i hope all will be saved :HeartThrob:
But this evidence is substantial :o
I hope someone is brave enough or man enough to challenge what is shared there in CARM
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," -
The words "will be tormented" in Greek is βασανισθήσονται, βάσανος or basanos (transliterated) refers to the word touchstone.
"touch·stone (tchstn)
1. A hard black stone, such as jasper or basalt, formerly used to test the quality of gold or silver by comparing the streak left on the stone by one of these metals with that of a standard alloy.
2. An excellent quality or example that is used to test the excellence or genuineness of others"
Quote from: battle axe on January 26, 2013, 09:04:59 AM
AND > Universalists place a great deal of weight on the word "aion," which means "age." From the Greek root "aion" we also have the word "aionion," which is translated in most instances in most Bibles as "eternal."
The significance of this is that Universalists maintain that there is no eternal punishment in hell fire. Therefore, they assert that the word "aionion" is in reference to "age duration" and can have temporal duration. With this assertion they try to substantiate their theological position that all people everywhere will ultimately be saved.
But, what do Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons have to say about the words and phrases used in Greek that are translated into the English "age", "world", "eternal," "forever", "forever and ever," etc.? Let's find out:
1.aion - , - age, world A."for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."1
2.aionion, aionios - - eternal A."aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude
:eek: Forever is forever how from the above evidence can we say it anyother way?
Mayb the inner witness of the HS tells us otherwise, but with so many written proof texts of forever meaning forever in the bible how did u ever twist it to an age of time? I know ur heart because it is mine too & i hope all will be saved :HeartThrob:
But this evidence is substantial :o
I hope someone is brave enough or man enough to challenge what is shared there in CARM
I will copy and paste Youngs literal Translation of most of the verses provided by CARM. This translation is as close to Greek as you can get. "
The Bible text designated YLT is from the 1898 Young's Literal Translation by Robert Young who also compiled Young's Analytical Concordance. This is an extremely literal translation that attempts to preserve the tense and word usage as found in the original Greek and Hebrew writings. The text was scanned from a reprint of the 1898 edition as published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids Michigan. The book is still in print and may be ordered from Baker Book House. Obvious errors in spelling or inconsistent spellings of the same word were corrected in the computer edition of the text.
"
Rom. 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the
age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --
God is indefinite when it comes to time, time is his, he is not of time1 Tim. 6:16 16 who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might
age-during! Amen. -
Same as above1 Pet. 5:10 10 And the God of all grace, who did call you to His
age-during glory in Christ Jesus, having suffered a little, Himself make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle [you]; -
Indefinite glory, unknown amount of glory. Who can put a figure or an estimation to Gods glory?Heb. 9:1414 how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the
age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
- Same as above.John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life
age-during.-
Life for indefinite amount of time. Age during meaning?
Indefinite amount of time.
Unknown amount of time
Excellent and perfect replies to what I thouhgt had pretty much nailed it, Thx for your kindness thats really something to chew on meat worthy of digesting all the way down ;) meanwhile something struck me a good chord about if it was just our choice and up to us then our salvation is dependent on works, but Grace is something we dont deserve but we get amen! Amazing grace could ring no better than in fellowships that thank God and delight in the Lords great love to all mankind. Thankyou again so much have a great weekend
BA,
I recommend you read some books on the topic to help you understand how UR is scriptural, rather then us just "twisting" words around. I know how hard it can be when you have just broken out of traditional Christian Theology, however when we read the bible sometimes we look through the eyes of what we have been taught, rather then what is really the truth.
Hope beyond hell by Gerry Beauchemin - http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/ free ebook online
The inescapable love of God by Thomas Talbott.
Universal Salvation? The debate by Thomas Talbott.
Razing hell by Sharon L Baker.
THANKYOU AGAIN!! :HeartThrob:
No problem brother, thank you for asking questions. If we are too believe in UR we can not simply ignore questions :Peace2:
Asking questions is great, it shows you care.
IMO, If no amount of good works can save us and only the free gift of God can,
and if God wants and desires ALL to be saved, (which he does)
and no man comes to the Father without Christ drawing(dragging) them to Him,
and like the Bible says, "God is the author and finisher of our faith"
How can we even be responsible for not coming to Jesus in this life -
especially since the few that have heard the gospel at all have heard a warped version of it
and many (all)have had an upbringing that literally requires divine intervention
before they would know the Lord.
The brothers and sisters of Jesus had the same basic upbringing and parents as Jesus had
but even that was not enough. :Peace2: :2c:
Yes battle axe and there are also many threads on the forum which talk about these things as well. Just search aionios and I'm sure you will find lots. :)
Another great book (which completely did it for me) was "At the End of the Ages" by Bob Evely. He wrote down every instance where the word aion and aionios were used, and it is very obvious they do not always mean forever and ever. (Actually imo I think that aionios is more of a descriptive word rather than a length of time, but I could be wrong on that.)
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 26, 2013, 03:52:34 PM
IMO, If no amount of good works can save us and only the free gift of God can,
and if God wants and desires ALL to be saved, (which he does)
and no man comes to the Father without Christ drawing(dragging) them to Him,
and like the Bible says, "God is the author and finisher of our faith"
How can we even be responsible for not coming to Jesus in this life -
especially since the few that have heard the gospel at all have heard a warped version of it
and many (all)have had an upbringing that literally requires divine intervention
before they would know the Lord.
The brothers and sisters of Jesus had the same basic upbringing and parents as Jesus had
but even that was not enough. :Peace2: :2c:
I believe, often this is said, "and no man comes to the Father without Christ drawing(dragging) them to Him,..." incorrectly.
I only mention it out of love. :HeartThrob: :cloud9: :dsunny:
"Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 14:6 "I am the Way," replied Jesus, "and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
"and I, (Jesus) if I be lifted up (crucified/resurrected) shall draw(drag) all men to me."
Don't know what to say. I knew that, and yet the two verses say something different? O do they? Something to look into, perhaps. Thanks for the lead. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Just a thot. Jesus became a life giving spirit after the cross. He couldnt draw prior so only the Father could. Just thinkin out loud
i really liked your post,Ded2.......right on! also add to that the murder and corruption of the 'church?' over the last
2000 yrs..the hypocrisy and corruption. I think it no wonder people are stumbled were God is concerned. all the
schisms,denominations.........
32 And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself."
33 Now this He said, signifying by what death He was about to be dying.
What do you think? I believe that after He gave His life, the Father began what was to be, that dragging. And redhotmagma, I believe your thought is good as well. :dsunny:
I also believe the translators should have used the word drag, because that's (imo) is how most of it gets done. :)
Quote from: sheila on January 26, 2013, 07:56:30 PM
i really liked your post,Ded2.......right on! also add to that the murder and corruption of the 'church?' over the last
2000 yrs..the hypocrisy and corruption. I think it no wonder people are stumbled were God is concerned. all the
schisms,denominations.........
:dsunny:
Yes, confusing is an understatement for what it's like trying to seek God throught the church system. I went to a bible university and came out more confused than ever.
I can't remember the actual study but the gist of it was that the longer people attended Bible college or theological seminary, the LESS likely they were to believe God existed and that the Bible could be trusted for spiritual information. :dontknow:
I believe that! Besides are not most of the seminaries started on the "belief" they had? Like these TV preachers when they become so rich they have to start a bible college(for mo money) and all you will be taught is "their truths" their, "this how it it." MO.
Never heard that before but I don't doubt it. It's a good thing I had had such an overwhelming experience of Him at my conversion or I may have given up altogether. Bible university had me so overwhelmed and disillusioned, I was to the point where I was sure there was no way of ever knowing the truth. Literally every professor had different opinions and perspectives on everything... the more I sought their opinions the worse off I was. (And to top it off I was a psychology major... LOL!!) Ahhhhh the irony and hilarity of it all lol...
I once had a psychology professor tell the class that he could sum up all of human psychology with 3 words repeated:
"Look at ME!! Look at ME!!"
:laugh: :LH:
Ahahahahaha so true isn't it??
Ded, that reminds me of the old saw I was told in college - the Philosophy professor who, for a final exam, walked to the blackboard and wrote ONE question:
WHY?
The one student who got an "A" on the exam wrote:
BECAUSE!
Yep - philosophy - IMO he/she got an A because the aim of philosophy is to NOT answer any questions - just discuss them endlessly. :laugh:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 26, 2013, 11:24:30 PM
Yep - philosophy - IMO he/she got an A because the aim of philosophy is to NOT answer any questions - just discuss them endlessly. :laugh:
Endless discussion...or to set up for war and mass murder - see my sig. :eek:
Spealing of Alexander the great
Did you ever hear of Ivan the great?
How about Ivan the terrible.
Ironic that Ivan the great and Ivan the terible were the same guy.
The only major conquerer that was a real sweetheart? Attilla the hon :laugh:
Can anyone help with this from CARM Website>
The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.
With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.
This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)
The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.
"into the age of the ages"
Translated as "forever and ever"; "forevermore"
It seems that by the translations forever is forever not just an age ? Gulp! sorry back to that again :laughing7:
But God's dominion is eternal because God alone is eternal.
Eternal also means unchanging which means God alone qualifies.
Eternal and immortal are different.
Therefore, absolutely nothing else is eternal, not death or hell - which are cast into the lake of fire.
The "Lake of fire" is only eternal if this is a word picture of God himself since "our God is a consuming fire"
I guess in that sense - everyone will be "in" eternal fire when God is all in all.
God is the beginning and the end - Eternal.
Who else or what else can make this claim?
BA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLK5l77SvK0
Watch this if you want to know more
Thx again ;)
I think God is the lake of fire because according to Ezekiel (I cannot find the scripture yet) its talks of the fire in hell coming from his throne, so that fire is part of God in hell or is God, NO wander they confess then lol! Makes more sence, Its not like Jesus is waiting beside them tapping his fingers saying c'mon c'mon confess confess, it would come from anyone alone just from been there. One thing is for sure it must be a set period, but still I cant be fully convinced they get out until i see that forever is not forever, but so far I see the eternal & everlasting as forever.
Sadly talkin of the unrepentant it says one kind go to life everlasting & the other eternal fire. The word perish gets me too, perish must mean be consumed until cleansed? If the lake of fire is forever how do we relate that to all been saved just a thought ? Lake of fire goes along with the word tormented doesnt it?
Daniel 7:9 NIV
"As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. WOW! Did u get that a throne with wheels? hehe Im just trying get my head around that one :trampoline:
Quote from: misszoolander on January 27, 2013, 02:06:28 AM
BA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLK5l77SvK0
Watch this if you want to know more
JUst to say thx alot misszoolander :thumbsup: I really really enjoyed that & saved it to my favourites now, I can also share that inm my simple church group onlineIf any of you are on facebook infact I would loooove to add you to my group, well the LOrd's. As here is for discussion simple church is for sharing & encouraging, often there is great quotes from many sources not only the scriptures, some music video's, notes from heaven, sometimes poetic. If so please PM here & share me your usernames.
Love in Christ :thumbsup:
Eternal (aionian) is simply the adjective used to describe the length of something. For example, if I say, you are tall. That means you are as tall as however tall you are. If I say, that building is tall, it doesn't mean you're as tall as the building, even tho I used THE SAME WORDS to describe both of you. When you talk about eternity, you have to look at the subject. When you say God is eternal, He is, because He's GOD. When you say punishment is eternal, it's obviously not, because nothing is immortal or truly eternal except God. Eternal or aion, is simply the adjective used to describe the length of something.
It depends on what tall means. Does it mean 'certain length' or 'unlimited length'. That's what the discussion usually focusses on. :2c:
Quote from: kukikreem on August 06, 2014, 02:49:18 PM
Eternal (aionian) is simply the adjective used to describe the length of something. For example, if I say, you are tall. That means you are as tall as however tall you are. If I say, that building is tall, it doesn't mean you're as tall as the building, even tho I used THE SAME WORDS to describe both of you. When you talk about eternity, you have to look at the subject. When you say God is eternal, He is, because He's GOD. When you say punishment is eternal, it's obviously not, because nothing is immortal or truly eternal except God. Eternal or aion, is simply the adjective used to describe the length of something.
I love the simple way you explained this ! good job !
and agree
I was thinking last week how hard it is to communicate with this English language !
I was just thinking how we need more chickens and corrected myself saying we need more hens ! not roosters but they are all chickens , being more specific .Just like WW says to the Word being described , it sure seems to help
Thanks for your post , I got alot out of it
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 26, 2013, 08:10:52 PM
I can't remember the actual study but the gist of it was that the longer people attended Bible college or theological seminary, the LESS likely they were to believe God existed and that the Bible could be trusted for spiritual information. :dontknow:
:LH: :faint: wow.. the twilight zone..
I was filled with the Spirit at 18, had an insatiable desire for the word... went to bible school for Bible degree... lived literally like a dream relationship with God for 2 years then He said quit school.... I was like But I am just about to get to all the Bible classes... the whole reason I am here. I foolishly told Him No (I don't recommend that at all lol) and 20 years later I am FINALLY fully coming out of this loooooong detour! I do now recognize of course that in His sovereignty and wisdom He did and is working it all for good but wow, truly I am a living testimony that if you want a hot mess of religious confusion then opt for the religious training of men over God....!
Quote from: strainerofcamels on December 04, 2015, 03:44:35 AM
I was filled with the Spirit at 18, had an insatiable desire for the word... went to bible school for Bible degree... lived literally like a dream relationship with God for 2 years then He said quit school.... I was like But I am just about to get to all the Bible classes... the whole reason I am here. I foolishly told Him No (I don't recommend that at all lol) and 20 years later I am FINALLY fully coming out of this loooooong detour! I do now recognize of course that in His sovereignty and wisdom He did and is working it all for good but wow, truly I am a living testimony that if you want a hot mess of religious confusion then opt for the religious training of men over God....! :dsunny: :banana: :iagree: :dsunny:
" If you want a hot mess of religious confusion then opt for the religious training of men over God...."
Pretty good summary.
Paul said in Galations 1;11-17 " I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me IS NOT OF HUMAN ORIGIN.
For I did NOT RECEIVE IT FROM MAN, nor was I taught it;
instead I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
For you have heard of my former way of life in Judaism, how intensely I used to persecute the church of God and was trying to destroy it. And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many my own age in the entire nation being extremely zealous for the traditions of my ancestors.
But when God,
Who had set me apart from my mothers womb and called me by His grace,
was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the gentiles,
I DID NOT CONSULT WITH FLESH AND BLOOD,
nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me,
but I went way into Arabia and returned again to Damascus."
Great summary by Paul of the power of the gospel.
Beautiful revealing of Christ working in your heart!! :HeartThrob: God is good and patient and kind towards us all
We sure need more of Him :dsunny: the Light at the end of the tunnel [vision ]
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 26, 2013, 08:10:52 PM
I can't remember the actual study but the gist of it was that the longer people attended Bible college or theological seminary, the LESS likely they were to believe God existed and that the Bible could be trusted for spiritual information. :dontknow:
i attended bible college and thats about right
Quote from: battle axe on January 26, 2013, 08:28:13 AM
But, a word of caution. The Universalist may say that Rev. 19.3 is not eternal because it is the description of smoke from the City of Babylon. But, the judgment that is cast upon her is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked, indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.
The phrase is always speaking of eternal duration.
wrong...Babylon is described as a CITY with streets etc not a group of people...the CITY OF BABYLON cannot literally burn forever so the phrase does not mean eternal in Rev 19 vs 3
Quote from: darryl on February 27, 2025, 04:01:30 AM
Quote from: battle axe on January 26, 2013, 08:28:13 AM
But, a word of caution. The Universalist may say that Rev. 19.3 is not eternal because it is the description of smoke from the City of Babylon. But, the judgment that is cast upon her is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked, indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.
The phrase is always speaking of eternal duration.
wrong...Babylon is described as a CITY with streets etc not a group of people...the CITY OF BABYLON cannot literally burn forever so the phrase does not mean eternal in Rev 19 vs 3
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
?Aion? / eon
And considering all pertaining scripture, the smoke of Babylon?s burning will rise up age to age / forever, in the memories of all.. Surely?! The end result of straying/imperfection which is not only entropy, a slow gehenna crucibLe that removes the chaff from the kernel of wheat, but is also an abyss of potential.
And there?s this! Not easy to see in 95 CE or thereabouts, but the three mentions of lake of fire are at huge fiery events, first one at armageddon. Isaiah 24:20, Rev.10:4 (But also Ps.91,46,23, Rev.7:15-17).
And Mt.13:30 the wheat and (still) tares is Rev.16:14-15-16/armageddon battle, and the door (to serving called reigning) of Mt.25:1-13, the ten bridesmaids parable. (During the Sabbath millennium and the following GWT judgement/full discernment day/aion, all chaff off completed on the quote, 8th day, quote, the last great day (Lev.23:36, Jn.7:37)
1st outline of God?s plan/administration of the ages: the week plus one: from the highly accelerated big bang into the universe as is, but like a clock not running.. and theN, set in motion; and a 2nd outline, the Spring, then Fall holy days of Lev.23, as the Lord?s first and second advents. His long second advent as a full scope version of his so brief first one, but with helpers serving called reigning.. crowns of Life, not metal.