I wrote a letter some time ago to the editor of Hank Hanegraff's "journal" in which, among other things, I pointed out the injustice of God sending both Nazi death camp guards and officers AND their non-Christian Jewish victims to the same place-an eternity in hell.
The editor rebutted my arguments for universal reconciliation with two of his own. He trotted out the old "hell is not that bad a place for the damned." He said that the Jewish victims of the Holocaust would not experience the same level of suffering as their Nazi tormentors would. He then quoted the biblical "fewer stripes" passage. This has become a common tactic of the promoters of the doctrine of eternal torment: making hell more acceptable to the Christian masses by painting the picture of hell with softer colors. Johnathan Edwards is being sidelined.
Their other argument against the belief in universal salvation was rather shocking. The Holocaust and other horrors of human suffering prove that God is not as merciful and loving toward human beings as we universalists claim Him to be. As God failed to deliver the Jews from the cruel hands of the Nazis so God will not deliver the unbelieving wicked from the flames of hell. I find this approach repugnant but it does have a certain emotional logic if not a rational one.
What do you think of this?
All
The irony of both these arguments, is that it looks upon the physical death circumstances and so too in the OT where God wiped out many times, with the eternal side of things.
So all those that drowned in the flood, exchange the watery death now for a 2nd punishment of eternal BBQ.
This is where the ETers fail to see the punishment and judgements of God, there is a natural side which can result in physical death, that is a once off. Judgement was made and punishment executed. Now why would God want to continue to punish for eternity?
It makes no logical sense, same as for a murderer convicted with the death penalty, he pays with his life only to pass onto a worse punishment?
Where is the mercy in all that?
Seeker,
Well said.. Some points that had not come to me until now.
Thanks..
Just how much suffering could a person take while continuing to describe the circumstance as "not that bad"?
This is non-sensical. Seriously. We're talking eternal destinies here.
Peace and blessings,
Andy
life on earth in the physical form is in itself a great injustice for the spirit
consider the behaviors used against Jesus, our Father manifest in flesh, put upon him by mankind.
one could argue the tragedies of human suffering and what is fair endlessly, but then that arguement is for the sake of flesh, not spirit.
its not, in my view a matter of 'whats not so bad', as in a view of what is the value of spiritual truth overcoming the flesh?
is it beyond the numbers of lives of the Jewish peoples to 'lay down their lives'..?...is the tragedy against them, or against the native american peoples, or other peoples in the histories of human existence, to outweigh the outcome of all life submitted to love?
the price of completely being assaulted and tortured and then murdered, was what Jesus paid....no more than any of us, singularly, or unified could do as well.
for the glory of God...where the human being achieves the resurrected life, surrendered to love in spirit over the desires of the flesh.
perhaps i have too high of expectations ...
allsaved.
I find his whole argument full of fallicy.
First, it is proven that Jewish Bankers supported the nascent of Hitler. It is also an established fact that a majority of Hitler's henchmen & officers were of Jewish descent, not to mention that 'controversial' as it is, Hitlers own relatives may have had jewish roots.
The fact of the matter is, the whole extermination of the Jews was in fact, a pugnantly and pointed attack on the poor 'Eastern' Jews, and was financed by 'Western' Jews. It is also a fact that many Jews of Germany and Austria were shipped to other countries (even the good old USA), but turned away by each nation most of the time. So are these nations who turned them away also guilty?
It is also a fact that Jews who wished to leave and be shipped to Palestine were given exceptional allowances, compared to those who wished to reside in the Germanic area's under Hitlers control.
Was this 6 million dead not also mentioned in 1917 by another advocate of a shoa taking place prior to the "Jews" of the world being able to come to Palestine?! YES THERE WAS!
Anyhow, autrocities towards all men have been occuring since the creation of mankind, has this not been the case?
Another note on the 'Jewish' question:
Have we not known of the gulag and secret camps ran in Russia for decades prior to the outbreak of WWII, and how inside those camps there were primarily 'Jewish' Officers and clerks running the camps? These same camps that separated millions of families from one's they loved, who had nothing to look forward but a life of hard labor and death in a cold Seberian coal mine? 60 million Russians were slayed by the Bolsheviks, who were primarily of Jewish ancestory.
Therefore we need to address truth. The truth is that mankind is inhumane to m ankind. It is the rich for the most part who persecute and use the poor. And the rich are found in much of the banking systems throughout the world.
At any rate, the question becomes would God burn another for eternity? Would God not be more liable for unjustice if he would allow another to actually burn and feel the pain thereof for eternity with no pathway or outlet for relief ever? This type of God would make the nazi's appear kind and docile in comparison.
But this is the God they worship. One who would burn you forever if you do not follow the laws. And you must follow the laws down to the last iota if we wish to please their God, and even this will not do.
Peace in Christ.
Is it any wonder that John Wesley, Andrew Murray, Andrew Jukes, Hannah W. Smith, John G. Lake, and others have run screaming from this paradigm that Hannegraff's cult has and have embraced UR over the centuries?
Quote from: pickr on October 24, 2007, 12:30:37 AM
Just how much suffering could a person take while continuing to describe the circumstance as "not that bad"?
This is non-sensical. Seriously. We're talking eternal destinies here.
Peace and blessings,
Andy
Well said. The problem with ET is the E part. Notice Jesus said more stripes, fewer stripes, not more severe and less severe stripes. Torment is understandable, as some UR'ers believe in a sort of temporary hell. This hell would actually have a redemptive purpose. I couldn't imagine a worse (and yet more productive) torment than being confronted with one's own sin, and the pain and grief that sin caused yourself, others, and God. It's my opinion, but this is what I believe hell is - being made totally aware of one's sin and need for the Saviour. Some go through this in this life and some will have to wait. But seriously just what is the point of endless torture? If hell is eternal, how can there be "degrees of punishment"? Even if hell is just watching re-runs of
Hogan's Heroes for eternity, it would still be endless - and meaningless torture.
:goodpost: I see it the same way (except maybe for the Hogan's Hero's part :laughing7:). I've had someone point out the torment/punishment part from the KJV where it speaks in Revelation about "their smoke ascending forever in the presence of the Lamb". As I've looked at it more, though, of course we have the "forever vs. aion/age/time period" issue. Also, there's "our God is a consuming fire", along with the gentle goodness of a Lamb...starting to put some of those things together, along with Revelation being a book that "signifies", then I start thinking about God's direct presence, revealing all to us He wants us to see about ourselves, our sin, the hurt, pain, etc. we've caused, the varying amounts of stripes you mention, etc., etc., and all of that starts seeming to add up to something much different than ET, to me. Not to mention the many, many verses about restoration, all nations praising, all families being blessed...I like what WillieH says about we're veiled or revealed...God will lead us all down different paths for different purposes to get us there, but one day there's the blessed hope that we'll all be revealed, and what we will see is the Lamb, our Savior, for all He truly is...then the lamb will lay down with the lion.
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!
And Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight,
The clouds be rolled back as a scroll;
The trump shall resound, and the Lord shall descend,
Even so, it is well with my soul
So, if hell isn't such a bad place, why doesn't Hank and his crowd volunteer to go there, or, change places with those who do?
Also, do those "good sinners" live in a hell that is only 70 degrees in a room with a view and a bed, bathroom, and good food?
The "not so good sinners" live in a room that is slightly hotter, say, 90 degrees with a view but not easily accesible, cot, a pot and food that's not hot?
The really "bad sinners" don't live in a room because they are exposed to the elements. Their enviroment is dependant on the conditions they are in at the moment....if it's hot they're hot, cold, they're cold. The only food they are allowed is what they can pick, and the pickings are slim. They must walk miles to find a few berries or a fruit tree with maybe one apple.
The really, really bad sinners" will just burn and turn, roast and toast forever. Their torture will be so foul that "great" men such as Jonathan Edwards, Dante, Spurgeon, Milton have written sermons and books describing what God will do to those who don't know him. Never mind that you couldn't know him unless he shows himself to you, you will burn in this God forsaken place and it's your fault...even though God could have dragged you into himself he dragged in so many others.
Let Hank H. give up all he has to teach and preach this hellfire doctrine and maybe than I'll believe he knows it's true. I don't think he really believes it, it just brings in lots of money.
Quote from: shibboleth
I don't think he really believes it, it just brings in lots of money.
People are nuts, why would anyone want to pay for this kind of stuff? :dontknow: :mshock:
the bible is pretty clear that god IS love, and, basing your perceptions through this 'lens of love' you have to consider the idea that god will not want to lose ANY of his children -
empty seats at the supper table will be a reason for sadness, evidence of evils victory and gods failing - this one thought process alone totally annhilates dualistic thinking
god does not have the responsibility to deliver any of us from an awful end, hes done enough just by ensuring our reconnection to him
the men and women who sacrificed themselves during the tsunami, trying to save children who werent even their own, have done more than the 'traditional christian god'
how much more then, will your father in heaven do for you?
Quote from: allsaved on August 27, 2007, 10:41:32 PM
...He said that the Jewish victims of the Holocaust would not experience the same level of suffering as their Nazi tormentors would. He then quoted the biblical "fewer stripes" passage. This has become a common tactic of the promoters of the doctrine of eternal torment: making hell more acceptable to the Christian masses by painting the picture of hell with softer colors. ....What do you think of this?
When eternity is the bottomline, there's no such thing any more as many or fewer stripes. It's a total mockery of the justice of God and of all of the hundreds of passages that speak of lesser and greater sins; sins of omission; sins of ignorance where someone didn't know there was a line not to cross; being recompensed double for one's sins, principles of restitution that involve restoring 7-fold, etc., etc., etc. Let me illustrate the absurdity that eternity makes of the justice of God in at least one way: Would you prefer that I hit you in the head with a baseball bat for all of eternity, or would you prefer that I ring blood out of your nose for all of eternity? Is getting dry shaved for all of eternity honestly worse than diarrhea for all of eternity?? Doesn't eternity make all of the above about the same??? How is
eternal fear all of that different from
eternal loneliness????
Eternity is the great equalizer of the torments of Adolf Hitler and some gentle Grandmother that simply never embraced His Lordship during her life time of being a gossip. Fewer stripes FOR ALL OF ETERNITY??? Give me a break :thumbdown:
It absolutely does sound absurd when you put it that way martincisneros......interesting post! :thumbsup:
You know.....it boggles my mind that many of the people who suffered at the hands of the Nazi regime, as well as other mass genocide.....many of them had such an optimistic, loving and forgiving heart. It truly must be God shining through them and nothing else......Father forgive them....they don't know what they're doing
Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart.
Anne Frank
I simply can't build my hopes on a foundation of confusion, misery and death... I think... peace and tranquillity will return again.
Anne Frank
But if I can go through what I went through, if I can still live and go through that pain for life on earth to change for the best, let it be.
Immaculée Ilibigiza Quote
Quote from: StainedGlass on June 24, 2008, 08:45:56 PM
Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart.
Anne Frank
I simply can't build my hopes on a foundation of confusion, misery and death... I think... peace and tranquillity will return again.
Anne Frank
But if I can go through what I went through, if I can still live and go through that pain for life on earth to change for the best, let it be.
Immaculée Ilibigiza Quote
Wow!
Did God not save hitler of the new testament (paul)?
Why is it that people think that God had mercy on paul because he finally saw he was doing evil?
God had mercy on him for his ignorance and his UNBELIEF.
Every time I drop that bomb on ET believers they try to disarm it and it goes BOOM EVERY TIME!!!!!
Aug
Quote from: auggybendoggy on June 27, 2008, 05:40:21 AM
Did God not save hitler of the new testament (paul)?
Why is it that people think that God had mercy on paul because he finally saw he was doing evil?
God had mercy on him for his ignorance and his UNBELIEF.
Every time I drop that bomb on ET believers they try to disarm it and it goes BOOM EVERY TIME!!!!!
Aug
Hahaha :laughing7:
Quote from: martincisneros on June 24, 2008, 07:57:40 PM
When eternity is the bottomline, there's no such thing any more as many or fewer stripes. It's a total mockery of the justice of God and of all of the hundreds of passages that speak of lesser and greater sins; sins of omission; sins of ignorance where someone didn't know there was a line not to cross; being recompensed double for one's sins, principles of restitution that involve restoring 7-fold, etc., etc., etc. Let me illustrate the absurdity that eternity makes of the justice of God in at least one way: Would you prefer that I hit you in the head with a baseball bat for all of eternity, or would you prefer that I ring blood out of your nose for all of eternity? Is getting dry shaved for all of eternity honestly worse than diarrhea for all of eternity?? Doesn't eternity make all of the above about the same???
I think the torments do make a great difference. Even if they are eternally. Having to live in a dessert for eternity is different from living in a pool of lava.
Heaven is also for eternity and there are also different levels of blessedness. Doesn't that make any difference either?
It appears that no one has really dismantled or proven the arguments to be fallicious however.
Arguing that the ET doctrine is illogical makes no more difference than telling a catholic that the bread is just bread and the wine is just wine. MYSTERY shadows us all; and that leaves everyone to tailor their doctrines to meet the ends they see.
We all know all too well the arguments of love vs. justice within God. Taditionalists have held this for so long it will take alot to unearth these ideas.
It seems to me that we UR (or inclusivists non ET subscribers) have difficulties with organized layered arugments to oppose such views.
Perhaps it's a lack of creeds or confessions which leaves us like a bunch pirates or lone rangers.
Sorry for being negative.
Sincerely,
Auggy
Hello Auggy,
You weren't being negative, you are being truthful. The arguments are not fallacious because they are still based on the premise of eternal torment. So based on the proposition of a perpetual hell, and perpetual torments, the arguments are within logical reasoning. This is difficult for most people to understand, that is why they are limited or stumped in their reply. The only way a person can prove those two arguments are in error, is to prove the premise is in error.
I present this with a pure motivation and right heart before God, in the Name of Jesus Christ, so that none shall take it in any other spirit, then in the good, wholesome and truthful Spirit of God, of whom I am a minster.
Many people don't know what they are doing in presenting a disagreement, and usually do not know what they are talking about in order to do it, this problem is not just associated with Universalists/Inclusionists as most recognize the ET doctrine as faulty, they just don't know how to explain why. So when they do present their disagreement or present their belief, they do it hap hazardly demonstrating their ineptibility which can be easily manipulated and cause more problems for themselves in both their credibility of their character and the content which they believe. In time, I hope people begin to learn from their mistakes.
I am baffled how people cannot see these things, it used to be taught in schools but I heard they have stopped teaching it (my theory is because it made people recognize advertising, politicians, and the like's manipulation and lies and politicians and lobbyists don't like when that happens). Through my observation, I also find people who are not knowledgeable, or educated in a specific area of knowledge, are the ones trying to disagree and using erroneous arguments themselves to do it. It only reaffirms the faulty position, when someone uses a faulty position to refute it.
So, here is the answer. You cannot refute a reasonable argument based on a faulty premise; you must refute the faulty premise. I hope there are more with ears to listen to truthful reasoning able to admit they are at a loss of words to refute something they know in their heart to be wrong and listen to those who actually have dedicated their lives to it in order to teach, refute, and share, instead of letting their pride get in the way and accuse them of wrong doing where there is no wrong.
With Love, Grace and Truth
Hi studier,
I don't disagree with what you wrote but I do have a remark.
Not all people can read Greek and/or Hebrew; so they can just read the Bible in their own language and perhaps a second language. Many of those people honestly believe what being thought.
For example how many have personally checked the size of the earth after reading somthing about it?
I'm not the best of Bible students, far from it, but I also believed for years in the fire and purgatory as being raised catholic. Why?
Firstly because I didn't even know of UR or annalation (can't even spell it :))
Secondly there are so many (allmost all) scolars that teach ET. Then people just start defending/refuting exactly as they have learned in church. (see size of earth example.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2008, 02:24:28 PM
I don't disagree with what you wrote but I do have a remark.
Not all people can read Greek and/or Hebrew; so they can just read the Bible in their own language and perhaps a second language. Many of those people honestly believe what being thought.
For example how many have personally checked the size of the earth after reading somthing about it?
I'm not the best of Bible students, far from it, but I also believed for years in the fire and purgatory as being raised catholic. Why?
Firstly because I didn't even know of UR or annalation (can't even spell it :))
Secondly there are so many (allmost all) scolars that teach ET. Then people just start defending/refuting exactly as they have learned in church. (see size of earth example.
Yes, asking questions and researching it, is what a person needs to do, but how many people hear something they are told is true and never ask questions or research it? If they pursue the sharing and spreading of that knowledge, and what they were told was actually false, that is called a genetic fallacy.
Next, concerning those scholars on ET, people who disagree with them forget that they are scholars. These men and women have spent their lives in study of Christianity, and have built upon foundations of presuppositions and therefore all their arguments are rational and reasonable from those foundations. This causes anyone who is not educated, knowledgable and studied problems when disagreeing, because they are going against those who are educated, knowledgable and studied in theology. So guess what? You need to know everything they believe, why they believe it, how they believe it as well as what you believe, why you believe and how you believe it in order to present a solid case and argument for the truth.
One needs to go back to the faulty premise in order to refute these guys. I have heard too many times, it is just not 'worth' my time, or it is too much work, or that they don't have to. In my opinion, this is weak. It is God's PATIENCE, TOLERANCE and KINDNESS that brings repentance. People need self-control, and recognize when they are ineffective and unproductive refuting these guys and need to recognize it is because they lack, not because they don't listen. Don't get me wrong a person can live free without ever knowing the details of the truth, but once they have been indoctrinated by false teaching they need to be set free by the Truth. There are some very long processes to undo in what generations have built. Scripture says by the knowledge of Jesus Christ, were many justified and redeemed. I really relate to what the disciples wrote in their letters, especially Peter when he stated:
2 Peter 2:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness
through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness;
and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Notice the progress faith->goodness->knowledge->self-control->perseverance->godliness->brother kindness->love. If we possess these qualities in INCREASING measure, they will keep us from being ineffective and unproductive in our KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ.