If Universal Salvation were true,
Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day? :dontknow:
It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs. :mshock:
THINK.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 04:27:22 PM
If Universal Salvation were true,
Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day? :dontknow:
It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs. :mshock:
THINK.
To reveal the TRUTH that the Father's love is not dependent upon self works through sacrifice.
Out of love, baptized for the dead.
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
blessed:
1) to bless, kneel
a) (Qal)
1) to kneel
2) to bless
b) (Niphal) to be blessed, bless oneself
c) (Piel) to bless
d) (Pual) to be blessed, be adored
e) (Hiphil) to cause to kneel
f) (Hithpael) to bless oneself
2) (TWOT) to praise, salute, curse
Every knee will bow....
bow
1) to bend, bow, the knee (the knees)
a) to one
1) in honour of one
2) in religious veneration
b) used of worshippers
2) to bow one's self
:Chinscratch: thinking
:Chinscratch: thinking
:Chinscratch: thinking
What was the question?
Hoo boy I really am dumb
There is no hope!
Hey Eric
You keep starting topics. You get rebuttled and then just move on.
And then it is the same old verbiage again and again and again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again again and again
Don't you know some good apologists that know how to discuss?
Really you are getting soooooo boring.
PT, when you propose such questions it demonstrates why God cannot and does not reveal UR to the masses. Not everyone can handle it or be trusted with it. It seems that if you were convinced of UR, it would drive you mad. God is preserving your mind until you are ready. :HeartThrob:
What rebuttal? What scriptural answer?
Why would they endure all that the Saints endured for the truth?
WHY would they go through what Paul says they did? Why did he?
Hebrews 11:36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Sawn asunder! Remember what the rabbis say happened to Isaiah?They sawed him asunder.
[Isaiah] thereupon pronounced [the Divine] Name and was swallowed up by a cedar. The cedar, however, was brought and sawn asunder. When the saw reached his month he died. [And this was his penalty] for having said, 'And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips'. (Babylonian Talmud, Yebamoth 49b, Soncino Edition).
The rabbis claim that Isaiah was killed by having his own mouth sawed in half because he chastised the Israelites for their unclean lips. The rabbis have it that it was Isaiah who was wrong, not Israel.
Why would the martyers of God go through this if , all children of Light, and children of Darkness will recieve salvation?
There would be no point. Absolutely NO point to suffer and allow their families to suffer so much if in the end, all will have clarity and complete understanding anyhow.
It would be like trying to make a difference in a dream, when in a few moments you'll wake up anyhow and understand everything crystal clear as will the others characters in your dream, therefore it's only common sense to see the fallacy in such motivation as you propose.
Once again, I'm not necessarily asking you to think Seeker, for you would certainly oppose me if you could in the simple truth of 2 + 2 being 4 if you had the ability.
2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Cr 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you
Think about this, why were they tortured, sawn asunder and the like? Because of what they believed.
We today would be done the same if all of us who believed in the salvation of all proclaimed it to the world. Paul preached grace, not law, Jesus broke the law that is why they killed him. We who believe in the salvation of all preach grace without works.
PeaceTroll, do you believe in grace with out works? Do you believe that there is something that you do that saves you?
CHB
Peacetroll,
Are you saying dying for a god that would have unbelievers on their knees begging not be be roasted and obliterated is more worthy of your sacrifice and endurance than a God that would have those same people, now in the image of Christ, not on their knees begging for mercy, but on their knees thanking Him for His mercy?
We tend to pattern ourselves (or at least strive to) after the god we worship. You seem like a patient, somewhat gentle person -- in the sense that I've never seen you go off even in the midst of all the people here that disagree with you, so I'm puzzled as to why the god you've fashioned seem so different from you.
I believe that Christ is the Savior of the world. Why should that fact cause me not to endure? Why would it cause our forebrothers not to endure?
Let me ask you -- what is your motivation for enduring? Is it love for God and your wanting to please Him or is it just to save your hind particles?
Thank you CHB and Dreamer for your comments and input as well as your questions. I always appreciate conversation regarding scripture and most of all discussion on the truths regarding the true God expressed and manifested in the flesh as Jesus Christ.
I'll try to take each of your concerns and points in chronological order, and I'll do my best to answer with the logic that has been given to me and at the same time try as much as I can to see things once again from your point of view
(For I was a URist without even knowing the term from a child until I was 36 years old, so I understand where you are coming from and I also empathize with your tenacity and grip you have on your current ideology).First to reply to CHB and his comments/questions.
QuoteThink about this, why were they tortured, sawn asunder and the like? Because of what they believed.
CHB. I mean absolutley no offence, but you revealed the obvious. Obviously they are killed for their belief. The belief that you and I confess to be striving to learn and obtain.
I'm simply saying, IF they believed that 'all homo-sapiens were going to ultimately be saved' then why did they bother arguing with others to the point of being murdered? To the point of leaving their wives widows and their children fatherless, when they could have just shut-up and beared it, seeing how in the end they too would be saved and all things would be clear and content? I'm saying it is counter-intuitive and I'm amazed I never realized it for 36 years, so I'm not counting on you all grasping my position, yet.
QuoteWe today would be done the same if all of us who believed in the salvation of all proclaimed it to the world
.CHB
I don't think so. First off URist have a tendency to be bashful when calling evil deeds evil and/or opposing evil men (their fruits being exposing who they are).
The true prophets and apostles died because they hated evil, exposed it and pointed their finger at the rich and greedy of the world and said 'you vipers, how shall you escape the damnation of hell??'.I don't believe for one second that the rich and elite of John the baptists days could care less about what he actually believed. Herod had John killed (or allowed it), because of his INFLUENCE on others and indirectly his influence on Herod and the Pharisee's money machine.
QuotePaul preached grace, not law, Jesus broke the law that is why they killed him. We who believe in the salvation of all preach grace without works.
CHB
Paul did preace grace, and mercy and predestination too. Jesus broke the law???????????????????????? That's why they killed him???????????????
I could write a whole chapter on that, but I'm not gonna.
The 'earthy' reason Jesus died was because he harmed the Pharisee's money making scheme in the Temple. The 'spiritual' reason was because the principalities of the air way thought he was the heir and they could kill him and gain his inheritance which is ETERNITY.
QuotePeaceTroll, do you believe in grace with out works? Do you believe that there is something that you do that saves you?
CHB
Good questions.
I believe in Grace first and foremost. By Grace we are saved, this not of ourselves, but it is a GIFT FROM GOD. NO man comes to Christ without the Fathers predestinating him/her.
What we must have to be saved is Christ in us and us IN Christ. How do we know if we are IN Christ and not IN Darkness?? When we have faith in him (Again I could write a chapter on what faith in him is about, but I'll not do that now).
Dreamer
QuotePeacetroll,
Are you saying dying for a god that would have unbelievers on their knees begging not be be roasted and obliterated is more worthy of your sacrifice and endurance than a God that would have those same people, now in the image of Christ, not on their knees begging for mercy, but on their knees thanking Him for His mercy?
Dreamer.
no one is getting roasted. no one is gonna beg Jesus to not be obliterated. No where does Christ say all will be in his image. God will save all those who are of him. The spirits who are not of him but are of Satan (Jesus told you about these but some don't hear him), will have all blame for all the rightouess blood ever shed on their shoulders, which is punishment by condemnation to the second death.
Jesus never jested or talked in vain, and did he not say the following??
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of them who kill the body
(Satan or tare-men). They are not able to kill the soul.
But fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (In this he speaks of the True God of whom he is the express image).QuoteWe tend to pattern ourselves (or at least strive to) after the god we worship.
I agree. But some people, scattered here and there have been given the truth metaphoric of being 'sealed'. And we all must try our best to understand scripture, run the race and seek him. For we should seek the Kingdom of God (Jesus) first and foremost.
Am I a man, of course. Do I profess to know all scripture and prophecy? Not by a looooooooooong shot. I am prone to fallacy as much as most anyone. Regardless I must try. I am driven too.
QuoteYou seem like a patient, somewhat gentle person -- in the sense that I've never seen you go off even in the midst of all the people here that disagree with you, so I'm puzzled as to why the god you've fashioned seem so different from you.
I wasnt' always as patient. When I was a URist I use to get really mad, write things I regreted all the time and so on. But since I realize who I am, and how I am a child of Light, I realize now I MUST try my very best to be patient, just and kind to all men, specially those who seek Christ. My works should be a reflection of my faith to the best of my ability, but I fail every day, every hour. Thank God Jesus Christ is my salvation and righteousness (if he be my Lord and I a lowest servant of the lowest servants).
QuoteI believe that Christ is the Savior of the world. Why should that fact cause me not to endure? Why would it cause our forebrothers not to endure?
Because if you think all men are saved in the end, why would you be tortured and have your legs broke into 1000 pieces and your skin flayed as well as your childrens skulls crushed etc., when you know all you ahve to do is relax, shut up and not be controversial to the elite, and you would live.
If all men are saved, I don't think anyone would be highly motivated to preach the philosophy in the face of death.QuoteLet me ask you -- what is your motivation for enduring? Is it love for God and your wanting to please Him or is it just to save your hind particles?
So that perhaps one day I may be a floor scrubber in the House of the Lord, and all those in my house may be in Jesus' House as well as all those who ever were kind to me. I run the race not only for myself, but for my whole house, friends and even aquantenaces,....even this is not of my doing, but of the Lords.
Peace to all
IN Christ.
God is not going to roast anyone who is on his knees begging for forgiveness. He is going to eliminate a cancer.
Did you say Jesus BROKE the law and that's why they killed him?Where did you come up with that? Is that why some of you ignore the words of truth given by Jesus while thinking you understand what Paul was teaching? :mblush:
Jesus fulfilled ALL of the laws and statutes, and that is why Paul preached grace, the grace of God to those who believe that Jesus was faultless and was raised from the dead because He WAS faultless. If this is not true then as Paul said,we are the most miserable of men.
What do the scriptures say?
Matthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Exactly what He did. Or all faith in Him is in vain. As Jesus said to the evil jews who were out to get him for a fault.
John 8:45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Because He was faultless, and by His grace, we in Him Jude said the following;
Jude 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Just as the prophets were killed mostly for exposing their evil works before Christ.
They killed Jesus because He was faultless and exposed their works as evil.
PT,
It seems that your question comes from the traditional view that salvation is a pass/fail prospect which teaches two distinct places (Heaven or Hell) and you are either in or out. This is not the way that UR believers see things so your question seems non-sensical from our perspective or eternal view of things.
We believe that God will eventually be All in All so everyone ends up at the same place. Heaven is just the realm of the Spirit where God rules His kingdom. The question is which road or which gate we will go through to arrive where we all end up and this distinction is worth preaching and warning and compelling and bearing reproach and bearing persecution for.
The narrow gate through faith in Jesus Christ while still in this life is so vastly superior to entering in through the wide gate through destruction that we gladly pledge our lives and our fortunes to warn others to choose the right gate. The wide gate will be entering the Kingdom by way of the Lake of Fire in which there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. It will indeed be horrible for anyone to enter this way and I would not want this for my worst enemy.
It is only those who still see salvation as a pass/fail scenario that ask such questions as what difference does it make if people believe the gospel if all are saved anyway. Paul quoted Isaiah 45 in Phil. 2 and knew that every knee would bow and every tongue would confess and be saved. And yet, He also knew that it was worth dying to compel others to be reconciled to God now and avoid waiting for this day at the Great White Throne to make this confession. To use a natural example, why don't we blatantly kill people that we hate if we live in a state where there is no death penalty? For one thing, life in prison with no possibility of parole is still something to be avoided at all costs even though you will not die for your crime.
Only those who do not hear the gospel make light of the Lake of Fire just because it is not eternal torment.
John
I'd rather die believing in the restoration of all then live believing in the damnation of any.
QuoteThe narrow gate through faith in Jesus Christ while still in this life is so vastly superior to entering in through the wide gate through destruction that we gladly pledge our lives and our fortunes to warn others to choose the right gate.
Kratos.
There is only way way to the Kingdom of God and that is through that narrow gate which is Christ.
The other gate you speak of does not lead to the Kingdom of God, but to destruction (which you mention but apparently are failing to comprehend). :dontknow:
I have shown you all that the Lake of Fire = The Second Death = Destruction.Christ will be all in all once the tares are destroyed. There is no place in the Kingdom of God for the tares. They are 'burned' as you have been told by the very prophets you profess to believe, yet do not.
Isaiah 10:17-19 (New King James Version)
17 So the Light of Israel will be for a fire,
And his Holy One for a flame;
It will burn and devour
His thorns and his briers in one day.
18 And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field,
Both soul and body;
And they will be as when a sick man wastes away.
19 Then the rest of the trees of his forest
Will be so few in number
That a child may write them.
Isaiah was speaking of the same event Jesus touched on below;
Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
But who will listen to Jesus Christ over others??????? Who will believe the TRUTH over the lies of men????????
Matthew 13
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them,
An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest:(
harvest = end of this earth age) and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,
Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
The metaphor is clear. I'm sorta exasperated in trying to convey the metaphor to some of you, and I apologize if I'm abit tired at this point in time.
May God open many of your Eyes to the truth.
P.S. IF God were to destroy the spirits from Satan, why would that offend me? IF I be a spirit from Satan, my destruction is well deserved and needful so that the remainder of the body may live in peace. For the spirits of Satan have no place in the light.
What offense is it to me if the True God eliminates the 'bulls', 'vipers', 'wolves' and 'dragons', but saves the 'Men'????None at all.
Why not? So,in effect, you are saying that those who follow UR would quickly renounce their faith in Him today, rather than face imprisonment, punishment, or death? I don't think I believe that. I guess I won't know personally unless it happens to me, but I like to believe that my faith would hold strong and that upholding my belief as a torch to others would be a bigger consideration than personal discomfort.
This is similar to other claims non-UR people throw out, such as believing in UR allows me to live a sinful life without fear of recrimination later. What doesn't follow is that while a denominational Christian I lived a much more sinful life than I do after finding UR, contrary to what they would expect. He moves in us, and gives us great understanding.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 04:27:22 PM
If Universal Salvation were true,
Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day? :dontknow:
It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs. :mshock:
THINK.
PT, much of what Jesus told us was counter-intuitive. Love your enemies, pray for them, forgive them, bless them, turn the other cheek, etc., etc. Why, as Christians do we do those things? Firstly, because He told us to, and secondly, because the Spirit of Christ is in us, empowering us, compelling us to.
So, why witness to the world, even in the face of persecution? Because He tells us to and His Spirit empowers and compells us to.
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations (Matt 28)...
And you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you will be witnesses to me ... to the ends of the earth. (Acts 1)
I was just thinking ... A more succinct way to put what I just posted is, "We love, because He first loved us."
Why risk sharing God's love with the world? Because He loves us and He love us all.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 06:35:04 PM
What rebuttal? What scriptural answer?
Every thread you start, there are rebuttals with scriptures. You lose the argument, then simply start a new thread
QuoteOnce again, I'm not necessarily asking you to think Seeker, for you would certainly oppose me if you could in the simple truth of 2 + 2 being 4 if you had the ability.
It appears you are the one with a deficiency in exercising acumen or logic. You do not read rebuttals, hence the folk are getting sarcastic with you. As for opposing you, I do not need to. Any reader worth his salt will see you are a poor apologist.
You cannot have believed in UR and then try and run from the truth. This is why you wrestle. Have you noticed the forum is still growing?
If UR were untrue, as you infer, you are not doing a good job of converting/convincing us.
99% of us here are Christians, so what is your mission? More trolling than peace?
Quote from: PeaceTroll
.CHB
I don't think so. First off URist have a tendency to be bashful when calling evil deeds evil and/or opposing evil men (their fruits being exposing who they are).
I think so. I have been on a few forums that were awful hostile and if I had been there in person speaking to these people they would probably have strangled me, I believe.
Quote from: PeaceTroll
The true prophets and apostles died because they hated evil, exposed it and pointed their finger at the rich and greedy of the world and said 'you vipers, how shall you escape the damnation of hell??'.
They preached against the law.
Quote from: PeaceTroll
I don't believe for one second that the rich and elite of John the baptists days could care less about what he actually believed. Herod had John killed (or allowed it), because of his INFLUENCE on others and indirectly his influence on Herod and the Pharisee's money machine.
The law was the main theme of that day and any one found breaking the least one was punished severely. You should know this.
Quote
Paul preached grace, not law, Jesus broke the law that is why they killed him. We who believe in the salvation of all preach grace without works.
CHB
Quote from: PeaceTroll
Paul did preace grace, and mercy and predestination too. Jesus broke the law???????????????????????? That's why they killed him???????????????
I could write a whole chapter on that, but I'm not gonna. The 'earthy' reason Jesus died was because he harmed the Pharisee's money making scheme in the Temple. The 'spiritual' reason was because the principalities of the air way thought he was the heir and they could kill him and gain his inheritance which is ETERNITY.
What did Jesus talk about? Law. They also killed him because he said he was the Son of God.
Quote
PeaceTroll, do you believe in grace with out works? Do you believe that there is something that you do that saves you?
CHB
Quote from: PeaceTroll
Good questions.
I believe in Grace first and foremost. By Grace we are saved, this not of ourselves, but it is a GIFT FROM GOD. NO man comes to Christ without the Fathers predestinating him/her.
What we must have to be saved is Christ in us and us IN Christ. How do we know if we are IN Christ and not IN Darkness?? When we have faith in him (Again I could write a chapter on what faith in him is about, but I'll not do that now).
PeaceTroll,
You just said. "by grace we are saved, the faith we have is a gift from God" and this is true. Then you said, "we know Christ is in us, when we have faith in him".
Grace is a free gift, right, so is faith? We do not have to do any thing to get grace or faith. What does grace and faith lead to, salvation, right? Salvation is a free gift to all mankind. We don't have to work for our grace or faith, then how do we lose our salvation? Doesn't make any sense does it?
You said the "lake of fire and the second death were destruction", this is true, it is the destruction of sin, not people. The lake of fire and the second death are both spiritual, they are not literal.
(1Cor. 3:15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It is the works that are burned and this is the second death.
CHB
The prophets were killed because they exposed the hypocracy of the establishment.
Jesus Christ and John the baptist died for the same thing.Look at what happened to Stephen.
CB you say that the prophets and Jesus preached against the law?
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 04:27:22 PM
If Universal Salvation were true,
Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day? :dontknow:
It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs. :mshock:
THINK.
I might suggest that it was for the "joy set before them".
PeaceTroll,
After the crucifixion the disciples preached against the law of Moses, especially Paul. I said Jesus broke the law of Moses, he magnified it, changed it. He made it so strict no one was able to keep it. The reason was to show the futility and hopelessness in gaining salvation based upon a system of lawkeeping and to show everyone they needed a Saviour. Christ taught law there is no question about that but he also broke the law of Moses. This is one thing that angered the Pharisees so.
Christ's ministery was not a message intended to lead anyone to salvation. It was a preaching of the coming of the earthly Kingdom of God. Christ made the law impossible for anyone to keep in a perfect sense and made it impossible for any one to be blameless and to direct people to the need of a Saviour. The Pharisees were always questioning Jesus about the law. (Matt 15:2) They ask Jesus " why do thy disciples trangress the tradition of the elders"? (Matt. 19:3) the Pharisees ask Jesus "is it lawful for a man to put away his wife?" (Matt. 22:17) Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar?
CHB
Quote from: arup on January 25, 2008, 02:13:12 AM
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 04:27:22 PM
If Universal Salvation were true,
Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day? :dontknow:
It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs. :mshock:
THINK.
I might suggest that it was for the "joy set before them".
For the "
Joy set before them".
Good answer. I agree.
(This is a similar question as, "Why not do whatever we want to if we're going to be saved anyhow?" I've met those that make the same objection referring to the grace of God, "If Christ died for my sins so they're forgiven, what difference does it make what I do?)
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 04:27:22 PM
If Universal Salvation were true,
Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day? :dontknow:
It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs. :mshock:
THINK.
I would have to say from experience, those who exercise such abuse of authority as persecution of those faithful to their conscience in matters of what they believe about God or what is good are also so impetuous about their use of power that anybody can inspire their vengeance unpredictably for the most frivolous impingements, real or imagined. Most of the persecutions I've received were not remotely appropriate for whatever I'd done, even if I'd been wrong. There also was no ordinary way to anticipate such reactions. In other words, apostles, prophets and testifiers to the truth are not intentionally producing the behavior of wicked men against themselves. In fact, sometimes some of them actually repent.
The love spoken of in the statement, "God is love" is the true motivator in God's kingdom. Self-preservation is not to be despised, whether from threat of immediate temporal harm or more protracted infernal destructions. Beyond what is willed, a rat in a trap struggles, however futilely, with the same drive as a trapped man in testimony to the hope for a better future God has planted in this creation. Self-preservation is also a part of legitimate self-love. When it must be overridden by more important considerations the man shows his superiority to the rat. Because the love of God has not been but slightly experienced, many who claim some affinity to the idea of it show little regard to the ultimacy of it. Casual acknowledgment does not reflect overwhelming habitual immersion.
God's own explanations of faith includes the fact that, "Faith operates by love." Out of love of God and the truth people suffer. It hurts to go against what you like. It's trouble to disagree with others. People who love the truth do this, however. Richard Wurmbrand recounts how those in the Soviet Gulag for faith were nominally Baptists, Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses, Lutherans (and did he mention Mormons?) These distinctions became non-existent in their fellowship of suffering. They were brethren in a sense deeper than their differing mental constructs on Bible themes would have implied if brought together under better circumstances. We are becoming enmeshed in a way of thinking in the USA where all parents holding to a standard Christian or Jewish morality will be liable to prosecution for child abuse for trying to deliver their beloved children from a homosexual lifestyle. Such situations are not resulting from conscious applications of theories of ultimate destiny. Christian Universalists, anihilationists, as well as those believing most will suffer fires eternally in screaming agony are in the same boat here. They will live for the truth regardless. A statistical study (from France?) I read a while back inquired into the beliefs of those that helped people escape the Nazis at the risk of their own lives. Only about a third of them were Christians. Atheists were motivated to help out of a sense of common humanity. It is simply true that some people will help others. Sad to say, most Christians didn't get involved. We all face death soon. If for love of the truth it comes a little sooner, many think that's good enough.
Through verse 35 in Hebrews 11 we see faith and subsequent victories. In verse 35 there is a transition to those whose outcome for faith in this life was to suffer and die without obtaining the promise; in other words, believe and fail. "Others are flogged, not anticipating deliverance, that they may be happening upon a better resurrection." Contrary to your question, this passage doesn't imply there is no difference in the outcome of a life forfeited for faith versus compliance with those coercing you. You propose the idea that the belief in the ultimate salvation of all mankind means a belief that everybody ends up the same. In a number of places, this isn't what Scripture teaches.
To the question, "How are the dead being roused? Now with what body are they coming?" (1 Cor 15
35) we find, in the midst of the discussion that there are varieties of bodies and degrees of glory, that as, "...star is excelling star in glory, thus also is the resurrection of the dead." (1 Cor 15
41-42) Not everybody is nor will they be the same. Differences will increase.
Consider that there is an inherent quickening to life corresponding to engrafted Divine nature producing behavior from a deeper reality than conscious choice. You can need to lose weight and will to diet, yet keep getting into the refrigerator for a snack. If the underlying subconscious motivation isn't dealt with, often a "hunger" for personal affirmation, then the behavior won't change. You'll continue raiding the leftovers to give yourself tangible approval regardless of constant choices to the contrary. Attempts to use willpower to divert underlying drives from their fulfillment usually fail.
From one person to the next, various beliefs reside differently within each. The degree one is influenced by conscious thought concerning any particular in Christian doctrine, or even anti-christian for that matter, is not consistently the same for anybody. Of course there is an important connection between faith and works. This has proved disasterous for many in human history who have been wrong about what they believed. It will prove to your benefit as you make progress in the knowledge of the Truth. For the multitudes that've heard, it is the few that press in to obey Jesus's words that receive the blessing.
To propose the trueness of a belief should determined by the comparative behaviors of those who do or do not believe it is so problematic as to be completely in doubt. Such a comparison would be interesting, but the actual comparison should be made by compiling facts. An assumption as you've made may blow up a balloon if you place it to your lips while speaking it, but shouldn't be regarded as expanding our minds with truth.
---James Rohde
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 10:38:43 PM
I have shown you all that the Lake of Fire = The Second Death = Destruction.
And I have shown you, Peacetroll, that lose, destroy, perish, anihilate = apolumi = things that are found, saved, returned.
Compare the Greek for "destroy" in Mat 10
28 with other occurences of the same word. It's used repeatedly in the 3 parables about things lost, perished, destroyed, anihilated -- pick one; it's the same word! -- in Luke 15. This was what the one sheep was called (anihilated?) that the Shepherd reasoned with us that we would also track down to save in Luke 15
4,6. I like the example, between that of the Shepherd (Jesus) saving the 99+1=100 (%) sheep and the Father with the prodigal son, of the woman (Spirit) whose drachma was "annihilated" in Luke 15
8-9! It is out of love for what they see value in that they desire for the destroyed to be saved.
If you'll follow the path indicated below you'll see a more complete post I recently made on this subject specifically for your benefit.
They do have a variety of medications to try and see if something will help for people with memory loss these days.Tentmaker Discussion Forum > Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation > Arguments Against Universal Salvation > Questions to the Universalist. Reply # 56 on page 3
On the lighter side Peacetroll, I am seriously thinking about starting a poll of all those whom think you should initiate a name change from "Peacetroll" to just plain old "Troll". :laughing7:. Just joking.
We are not being saved from what will happen in the future, but from the death we were all involved in now. Without Christ we are spiritually dead. Just look around yourself. Isn't this world proof enough that we definetly need the Kingdom in its fullness? Now, that's a reason to lay down your life. Out of Love for our fellow creatures. If one is consummed by this absolute Unconditional Love of our Heavenly Father you can't do anything but lay down your life, even for your enemies, cause you will see them through His eyes. Their salvation from the darkness they are caught in will be more important to you than your own life on this planet.
Witout true repentance (change of mind) no one will be saved from the darkness that they live in. In other words: No one will be saved until they are saved. How shall they know they are already reconciled if we don't tell them? How shall they believe to their full salvation? And our lives preach far louder then our words, for sure.
So, Come Holy Spirit, and break our hearts with the Father's Love, that all may see the Glory of Your Son displayed in us. We are so tired of words. Let us see Your Kingdom come, Father, and Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
Quote from: Floyd on January 25, 2008, 12:43:29 PM
So, Come Holy Spirit, and break our hearts with the Father's Love, that all may see the Glory of Your Son displayed in us. We are so tired of words. Let us see Your Kingdom come, Father, and Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
Amen!
Thanks Reformer.
I'll look into the meaning of Apolumi and its root definition in greek concerning the Matthew, Luke and other versus containing this word.
I appreciate anything that stimulates me to research and learn.
Peace IN Christ Jesus.
Reformer.
I've done some initial research. The scriptural logic and greek definitions/terms used in the scripture I used to build the case for the Lake of Fire = Second Death = Destroyed still firmly stands.
If you would like to see the reasons and logic behind my statements I'd like to direct you to the Lake of Fire = Second Death = Destroyed Thread.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1960.0 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1960.0)
I'll explain what I've found.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 25, 2008, 02:17:22 PM
Thanks Reformer.
I'll look into the meaning of Apolumi and its root definition
We wait with great anticipation your ongoing research regarding apollumi/ ajpovllumi, the foundation upon which o[leqroß/ olethros stands. Can you disclose to us why there is salvation firmly linked with both words?
If you save your life you will apollumi/ destroy it. But if you destroy/apollumi your life for My sake you will save it.
And, Troll, why is it that the individual turned over for o[leqroß destruction has his spirit saved in the Day of the Lord? Hmmmmmmm
QuoteAnd, Troll, why is it that the individual turned over for o[leqroß destruction has his spirit saved in the Day of the Lord? Hmmmmmmm
You used the word individual as if it were any one in the world. Paul was speaking to the brotherhood
in Christ about a member of that group, who believed in Christ.
1 Corinthians 5
1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
What you were refering to is a brother in faith doing evil and not turning from it.To turn him out of the group in his fleshly life, but that his spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord. He is not talking about those who are without the brotherhood.
1 Corinthians 5:
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
1 Corinthians 15:33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Really PT
What are we to make of your last post? Hmmmm let's see:
All CU's are fonicators? :mshock:
We should be delivered to satan? :hammerhead:
We should not keep company with fornicators? :cyberworld:
Put away from you the wicked? (hinting for a ban :laughing7:)
We have no knowledge of God? :Whistle:
We should be shamed? :pitiful: :sorry:
:snor: :snor: :snor:
I was hinting at nothing, simply quoting Paul about what the point was.
The last was to show that he wanted people acting immorally not to be able to corrupt the morals of all the others in the church. That not doing so was a lack of knowledge of the truth. To their shame. That to not chastize a brother for doing evil is to colude with him in that evil.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 25, 2008, 06:39:33 PM
I was hinting at nothing, simply quoting Paul about what the point was.
The last was to show that he wanted people acting immorally not to be able to corrupt the morals of all the others in the church. That not doing so was a lack of knowledge of the truth. To their shame. That to not chastize a brother for doing evil is to colude with him in that evil.
See when you tell us what you see, then we can understand what you are trying to convey.
Now as for the morals of the church, who's definition of morals? Choose one and there are 37999 others to speak to. We judge no one apart from folk espousing ET.
This is an open forum to discuss with mutual discovery, unique IMO to the net as far as forums go. On a SDA, JW or Mormon forum, you would not last long.
A few folk here have hinted on the way you post kindly to sarcastic, I guess you should heed their advice and try discuss a topic to conclusion instead of nursing simultaneous threads arguing essentially the same thing, I think you are even getting confused with the topics.
Give it a bash
Blessings
I was simply clarifying who Paul was speaking about as having their spirit saved at the day of God.A member of the church,nothing more to it. :dontknow:
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 25, 2008, 10:39:29 PM
I was simply clarifying who Paul was speaking about as having their spirit saved at the day of God.A member of the church,nothing more to it. :dontknow:
The fact is Troll, you have clarified nada. There is simply no support for assuming that the individual turned over to Satan for olethros destruction was anything other than an attendee of the church of Corinth, unless you are assuming all attendees are believers in any church. Are you aware that Sardis had a "few" who had not soiled their garments? Yep, a few.
And again.....
QuoteWe wait with great anticipation your ongoing research regarding apollumi/ ajpovllumi, the foundation upon which o[leqroß/ olethros stands. Can you disclose to us why there is salvation firmly linked with both words?
So what is it? Someone who never heard, or those born in a Moslem country that were trained up into believing in an anti-christ Jesus, they are anihilated? Only those of the Church in this life are human? There is no more teaching or correcting beyond this life.
And the promise that he shall pour out His Spirit upon ALL flesh is what?
And, the only ones saved are those getting the Holy Spirit here and now? The rest are, what, non-human? How come the Bible nowhere acknowledges this, either by overt doctrine or terminology? All mankind are at differing times sons of God or sons of the devil. The division is not between men and the devils offspring but mankind itself divided as sons of God or the devil. Farther, "Christ died for the un-godly" so you can't say these non-humans are the un-godly. All the things you might use to label your non-humans Scripture says we once were also. Paul uses himself as an example of the worst or chief of sinners.
Jesus came as a human being, the son of man (Adam.) He was made sin.
The son of MAN.What did Jesus say of who He was?He said He was the son of God,and the son of Man which is in heaven---God.
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Yet Jesus himself would hang out with outcasts and sinners, and when one would confess their sinfulness...he didn't cause them to suffer some punishment, but rather told them to "go forth and sin no more".
Any church consisting of only those free from sin, would be an empty church.
In the Gospel of John Jesus is called the son of God 5 times and called the son of man 55 times. (Which just happens to be the number of persons Calvin had executed for heresy: 55.)
So you say He's not the son of man because He's the son of man (in heaven)? Like I'm going to believe that? So, when in heaven as the son of man He's really not the son of man. So what in hell is He? (Don't let me put any words in your mouth to answer this one.) He hasn't changed by being born of resurrection yet, so as son of man in hell He's not man again? (1 Pet 317-20 and specially 1 Pet 46)
What I want to know is when is there any time left for Him to be man at all in this scheme of denying the obvious you've come up with?
Quote from: reFORMer on January 26, 2008, 02:58:28 AM
So you say He's not the son of man because He's the son of man (in heaven)? Like I'm going to believe that? So, when in heaven as the son of man He's really not the son of man. So what in hell is He? (Don't let me put any words in your mouth to answer this one.) He hasn't changed by being born of resurrection yet, so as son of man in hell He's not man again? (1 Pet 317-20 and specially 1 Pet 46)
What I want to know is when is there any time left for Him to be man at all in this scheme of denying the obvious you've come up with.
Possible the term means simply, He's been there (heaven), from there, and is 'of' there on a spiritual plane? Speaking more of His essence? My cent and a half.
Well, if Jesus is not the son of man because he's the son of man in heaven, then how can the only mankind Peacetroll would have saved, churchmen, be men? They are the one's He's made, "...to live together with the Christ...and did raise us up together, and did seat us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." (Eph 25-6) By his reasoning the mankind that are in heaven are not mankind. Yet he wants us to believe the rest are not men either.
Jesus never gets to be man which makes sense since mankind isn't ever man either.
Kind of a reverse Universalism: Nobody gets saved because there are no men to be saved. That fits my experience with (non)humans more than, "I called you all Elohim, all of you El Elyon."
Excuse me, I'll be back in a moment. Rod Serling's at the door.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 26, 2008, 03:43:14 AM
Excuse me, I'll be back in a moment. Rod Serling's at the door.
Maybe I wasn't clear (Twilight Zone?). I'm not trying to say He's not the Son of Man...I'm saying wrt the fact(?) that He wasn't in Heaven
at that moment, He was still the Son of Man (man) but also still divine (heavenly)...just trying to resolve a difficult verse to understand...
Quote from: jabcat on January 26, 2008, 05:50:19 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on January 26, 2008, 03:43:14 AM
Excuse me, I'll be back in a moment. Rod Serling's at the door.
Maybe I wasn't clear (Twilight Zone?). I'm not trying to say He's not the Son of Man...I'm saying wrt the fact(?) that He wasn't in Heaven at that moment, He was still the Son of Man (man) but also still divine (heavenly)...just trying to resolve a difficult verse to understand...
I was referring to Peacetroll saying He's not man because He's in the heavens.
According to 2 Cor 11 there are 3 heavens. I understand them to correspond to the 3 dimensions in which we exist: spirit, soul and body. When we are regenerated our spirits are raised out of identification with the psychical or soulical dimension and elevated into the 3rd heaven or spiritual realm. As that happens there is also "the merismos," the separation of spirit from soul. Jesus was speaking of His being in the celestials while those around Him, because the Spirit had not yet been given, were still animalistic, born with death and without Divinely quickened spirits.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 26, 2008, 06:28:12 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 26, 2008, 05:50:19 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on January 26, 2008, 03:43:14 AM
Excuse me, I'll be back in a moment. Rod Serling's at the door.
Maybe I wasn't clear (Twilight Zone?). I'm not trying to say He's not the Son of Man...I'm saying wrt the fact(?) that He wasn't in Heaven at that moment, He was still the Son of Man (man) but also still divine (heavenly)...just trying to resolve a difficult verse to understand...
I was referring to Peacetroll saying He's not man because He's in the heavens.
According to 2 Cor 11 there are 3 heavens. I understand them to correspond to the 3 dimensions in which we exist: spirit, soul and body. When we are regenerated our spirits are raised out of identification with the psychical or soulical dimension and elevated into the 3rd heaven or spiritual realm. As that happens there is also "the merismos," the separation of spirit from soul. Jesus was speaking of His being in the celestials while those around Him, because the Spirit had not yet been given, were still animalistic, born with death and without Divinely quickened spirits.
Not sure I know enough about this particular topic to be able to absolutely agree with you, but it does make sense and is helpful..thanks!
I didn't say he's not man because he is in the heavens. I quoted Jesus saying He was the son of Man which is in heaven.:sigh:
Jesus did not have inherited sin from Adam. He was the son of God. Think about this concerning man.
1 Corinthians 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
And this.
1 Corinthians 15:45And so it is written, the lThe first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Peacetroll:
I don't know if we've met before or not--nice to chat with you!
I actually wanted to respond to your initial question about why anyone would go to death for the Gospel if he believes that all will be saved anyway. (I haven't read all the responses to this thread, so forgive me if I write something that is a repeat of someone else..!)
And so the verses came to mind where it says (1 Cor. 3:13-15) that all will be put through the fire and saved. At least that's how I read it. (Other opinions are always welcome!)
Then I thought of how wonderful it would be to die for love....!!
And then an article written by the late Bill Britton (which I never read till now) came to mind. I'm posting it below, although the website I found it on is: www.dimensionsoftruth.org
His writing is poignant, and he even goes so far as to say to his enemies, "I love you." This is the Spirit of Sonship, I think..
My Beloved Enemy - A Word To My Enemies
YOU are not really my enemies at all. in reality you are some of the best friends I have. You who have lied about me, and about this ministry, who have tried to destroy people's faith and confidence in me, who have spread false and damaging rumors about my life and teachings. through your efforts there has been a work of grace wrought in this heart of mine that could never have happened without you.
My friends have been many, and loyal, and faithful to stand with me in many hours of trial and need. They have been strength to my weakness, added joy to my heart in time of sorrow, and have girded up my faith amidst raging doubts. They have brought me before the throne of grace innumerable times in their seasons of prayer. I could not have continued long in this spiritual conflict without these wonderful friends.
But, believe me, I speak in sincerity and truth, there can be no perfection in the lives of God's elect without the chastising work of a real enemy. For when a bitter vicious person begins to do all they can to destroy me and my work for God, then there is a work done that brings out all the wrong and evil attitudes and spirits that lie hidden and deeply rooted in my heart. When a friend extols all my good virtues and praises me from their heart of true friendship, I feel nothing but love for them. But, when I hear of an enemy who has unjustly brought shame upon me, there rises up a spirit of defending myself, and a spirit of "righteous indignation" to refute the enemy. It is then that the precious Holy Spirit does His office work and reveals to me the wrongness of my own spirit. I see in me then, the things I did not know were there before. With repenting and sorrow of heart I cry to God, and He delivers me from that which I have seen in my life. It was hidden, lying dormant, until you, my beloved enemy brought it to light with your crucifying process. The prophets of old would never have had the glory of being stoned for the Word of God-and no martyr's crowns could ever have been won by the early Christians without real enemies.
You see, I cannot crucify myself, and friends will not do it. So it takes you, my enemy, to bring me to the cross. And to the cross I must come, if ever I am to come to the glory of perfection. But I have much progress yet to make before coming to the image of my lovely Jesus. There is so much I must yet learn. And, my enemy, you are teaching me. I have learned that the road to glory is by way of the cross. Without you I would not have found the way. Someone had to crucify my Jesus. Not his friends, not his disciples, and He could not do it Himself. So Satan and the princes of this world stirred up hatred in the hearts of His enemies, and the work was done. Had they known that they were bringing Him into His glory, and bringing about the salvation of lost mankind, they would not have done it. And I'm sure that if you knew the good your efforts are working out in my life, you would not want to help me so much. But the work is being done, and I have learned to love you because of it. "Love thy enemies," He said, and I wondered how I could do it. But you have taught me. For because of you I have grown in God, increased in His Grace, and partaken of His divine nature.
Also because of you many have been turned away and refused to hear the truths imparted unto this vessel. Their ears have been filled with lies, and no doubt have thought that "no good thing could possibly come from such a one." But even here I have seen the hand of God. For those who have had ears to hear the voice of the Spirit have not believed the lies you have told them, and they have opened their hearts to the message for these last days. Thus, God has weeded out the chaff from the wheat, and is in the process of separating His own unto Himself. All things are working together.
So, my friends, for in reality I have no enemies in flesh and blood, your work has been sharp and cutting, and many times I was hurt and wounded deeply. But out of these trying experiences I have come forth a better Christian, and further on my way to being an overcomer. I doubt that you will receive any rewards for your lies and your efforts to destroy me, for "Woe unto them through whom these offences come." But I want you to know that though your loss may be great in the day of judgment, I love you and appreciate the ministry you have had in perfecting this life of mine.
NOW JUST A WORD TO ALL WHO HAVE READ THIS. I trust that you have understood that this word has not been applicable to me only, but should apply as well to all of God's dear children. May the Spirit speak to your heart and open your eyes to this great truth. that without chastisement and the work of enemies we can never come into full Sonship. And when we see how much our persecutions and afflictions mean to us in maturing our spirits and bringing us into His image, then we can truly "Love our enemies," and "bless them that curse us." Praise God for His marvelous plan! And remember. all the enemy can destroy in the fires of persecution is "hay, wood and stubble," and all they will melt and bring into His image is the "gold, silver and the precious stones." So let us be willing to burn that which will burn, that those things which will not burn may stand forever!
Love to all,
Brian
Our work that we build on the foundation of Christ is what is tried by fire,the Spirit of truth, when we stand before the judgement seat of Christ.As paul wrote.
1 Corinthians 3:11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Blessing those who curse you is a proof that you are one of the children of God.For what is said about God's treatment of the ones who hate Him?
Matthew 5:44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Yes:
blessing those who curse you. loving those who hate you. offering life to those who kill you.
Isn't this the love of God for us?
Brian
Quote from: Dreamer on January 24, 2008, 06:04:21 PM
PT, when you propose such questions it demonstrates why God cannot and does not reveal UR to the masses. Not everyone can handle it or be trusted with it. It seems that if you were convinced of UR, it would drive you mad. God is preserving your mind until you are ready. :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: You know, I really think that is true. :thumbsup:
Forgiving one's enemies is what the Son's and daughters of God do.
But to forego one's life just because your pleading for UR is also ignoring the life and hardships your sons and daughters will have without you.
I don't see any martyrs today dying for UR. Nor do I believe you will see any in the future in my opinion.
At anyrate, if everyone's going to be saved, I just don't see much point in proselytizing myself. But if all men are not by defacto saved, it seems to be a much bigger motivation to preach that their is Salvation in Christ to those who don't believe in him.
I've been on both sides of the fence, I should know :dontknow:
Isn't there a saying that says something like, "the heart has its reasons, that reason knows nothing of."?
Bri
Personally, I think the concept of telling everyone that you will find salvation, Jesus is why, check it out and find Him today is a much better and and more readily shared message than "Find Him or live an afterlife of eternal torment". Better to not believe in Him, maybe it won't come true then?
Quote from: Reverend G on January 29, 2008, 11:19:01 PM
Personally, I think the concept of telling everyone that you will find salvation, Jesus is why, check it out and find Him today is a much better and and more readily shared message than "Find Him or live an afterlife of eternal torment". Better to not believe in Him, maybe it won't come true then?
Been sharing UR with a friend, got
that question from him last night...you know the one..."then what's our motivation to serve and worship here and now"? I was tempted to go into a lot of stuff...could quote things like "perfect love casts out fear, fear [is linked to] punishment, we love Him because He first loved us"..., "do we only serve Him now out of fear of hellfire and punishment?", etc. The Holy Spirit just prompted me to use one word as an answer at that time...."Love".....I think when we truly see, when the veil is lifted, and we can see the depth and the breadth and height of what Jesus truly did for us on that cross, and when God places in our hearts that blessed spirit of reconciliation, we can do nothing else but love Him and want to please Him..."as the deer panteth for the water"...God is SO good...thank you Jesus.
LOVE is such an apt and comprehensive answer I hesitate to do anything other than magnify it.
I had written something elsewhere I wanted to post on this common objection. I searched for it as a seperate topic here, as I thought it was, but without finding it.
Before shutting down the thread, removing it and banning me at "Christ Centered Forums" (very strange, since this "ET vs. UR" topic was not at all included in their statement of faith and they have demoniational "rooms" where those that register as with a specific sect can talk withother denizens of that organization, and Eastern Orthodoxy still teaches UR) --- as I say, before, when I could post there, this question # six by "Deacon Dean" was asked and my answer follows.
question:
If the Greek word you are advocating here aiwv-aion, does mean simply an "age," then I submit you do an injustice to the Holy Scriptures. If it does mean simply an "age" then where is the motivation to be saved in the first place? For if it does mean an "age," why not just sin as one wills, go into the lake of fire, and after a certain amount of time has passed, state of things marking an age or era; then I will burn up into nothing, and essentially escape from the lake of fire. I have escaped "eternal" punishment. This is the very core of the argument for "annilationism."
answer:
Nothing and no one escapes judgment. We who have been regenerated are already "come unto...God the Judge of all." (Heb 12:22-23) In Luke 15 there are three parables. In the first one the 1 lost sheep is sought until found. It isn't accidentally here in Jesus's words. 99 plus 1 equals 100. What percent will he save? Because of His death and resurrection He says, "I will draw all men unto me." Is He going to be some other Jesus that the one we've met? Maybe He's a two-faced God with one law for certain people and another for others? The first parable here is of the Shepherd (Jesus, God the Son) who lost a sheep first and the Father (God) who lost a son, the Prodigal son last. What aspect of deity is remaining in the middle? Father, mother and son makes a family. The middle allegorical tale was the woman (God the Holy Spirit, spirit being feminine in both Hebrew and Greek) who lost a coin! The Greek word here of the "lost" coin is the same Greek word over which the case is attempted to be made that it represents destruction, as in "annihilation." While better than the idea of Everlasting Torment, it's just not Biblical. She found the coin and had a party. You can't find what's annihilated. Are you ready for the Wedding Party of the Lamb? You're invited to the celebration of the Holy Spirit.
These experiences with a God who rejoices over His people is certainly enough motivation to turn from sin which prevents us from obtaining from His Kingdom, where God is both the realm and the Ruler of that realm. A thing that comes about from following the leading of the Holy Spirit and believing Jesus's words is to get away from pain and misery, whether in this life or beyond, which any reasonable person would want. To teach too much suffering is as wrong as too little suffering. Yes, God has made a way of escape. Take heed how you build, for everyone's work will be tried by fire. Strive to enter into the rest, for only the Overcomers are promised to not be hurt by the 2nd death.
By "saved" many mean a "born-again experience." But it is not based on what God does in us that we are "saved." That is an outcome of what He has done "in Christ, reconciling the World unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them." (2 Cor 5:19) Often a strong emotion of joy or sorrow is mistaken for the presence of God. Certainly it is right to have thought and emotions resulting from God manifesting; but, people's experience changes from day to day. What is laid in the foundation of Jesus Christ cannot be undone. Faith in Him and the gospel will never disappoint. Salvation is the transformation of spirit, soul and body into the Image and Likeness of God. It is not ultimately about what happens when you die which is a temporary kind of detour. Jesus has opened the door into victory over death as Paul said his aim was. (Phil 3:11, 14, 20)
I'm very surprised so many people make the argument that if there is an end to the torment through ceasing to exist or by going on into transformation it is unreasonable to stop sinning all we want. If sinning is what you prefer I wonder how really "saved" you are. Is the reward of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not incentive enough?
Some of the weakness in the mind here is as I've indicated. It is said that to be "saved" is from hell. Transformation is not in the cartoon version here. Consider, however, that, "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom 5:6) We do not stay ungodly. The Holy Spirit changes us. Yet the idea that God would save some person renowned for wickedness who went into the 2nd death is often protested. If they were "saved" they wouldn't have that wicked identity any longer. But the protest is forgetting salvation is transformation, as if the wicked would somehow be "saved," as in "preserved," to continue in wickedness.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 30, 2008, 08:38:15 AM
LOVE is such an apt and comprehensive answer I hesitate to do anything other than magnify it.
I Consider, however, that, "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom 5:6) We do not stay ungodly. The Holy Spirit changes us. Yet the idea that God would save some person renowned for wickedness who went into the 2nd death is often protested. If they were "saved" they wouldn't have that wicked identity any longer. But the protest is forgetting salvation is transformation, as if the wicked would somehow be "saved," as in "preserved," to continue in wickedness.
Amen...God's blessing, James.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 04:27:22 PM
If Universal Salvation were true,
Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day? :dontknow:
It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs. :mshock:
What's counter-intuitive is for you to believe what you say you believe and yet spend your time here trying to convince saved/born again believers that not everyone is going to be saved. Shouldn't you be out trying to convert lost people? :dontknow:
- byron
Quote from: reFORMer on January 30, 2008, 08:38:15 AM
If sinning is what you prefer I wonder how really "saved" you are. Is the reward of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not incentive enough?
Such a good point, reFORMer!
It seems obvious to me that many are NOT experiencing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Nice post, Jabcat.. (Jan. 29 post). Simply beautiful.
reFORMer: you got banned from a "Christ-centered forum" because of what you wrote above???
Has anyone else here been banned from other forums for similar writings? (I don't participate on other forums, I can hardly keep up with one thread here!!) -Forget about the "unbeliever," maybe we need to share the love of God with other "Christians" first!
Love to all,
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 31, 2008, 11:33:24 AM
Nice post, Jabcat.. (Jan. 29 post). Simply beautiful.
Forget about the "unbeliever," maybe we need to share the love of God with other "Christians" first!
Love to all,
Bri
Thank you, God's blessing.
This brings up a pertinent point for me...I believe God's showing me that some who are already believers are in fact part of the "the fields are white", but it's because they are ones with more open hearts and minds within which He has already begun to work to prepare them for His "next steps". However, there are those who are either really sincere in their love for Christ yet still steeped in their traditions to the point of not being able to hear, as well as those we probably all know who have the spirit of the Pharisee..."don't bother", other than to love them and let them know Jesus loves them. I've seen others post that say unbelievers are more open and willing to accept the true God of love, in fact, are relieved and enthusiastic to hear that God is actually good and not a God of torture...anyway, God's blessing.
You say saved, from what? You will not be saved until the event you are going to be saved from occurs. What one has is the promise of God that you will be saved.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Born again is not an accurate translation of the scripture.It should be born from above.
Are you born from above?
John 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 31, 2008, 09:27:01 PM
You say saved, from what? You will not be saved until the event you are going to be saved from occurs. What one has is the promise of God that you will be saved.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Peacetroll, who are you responding to, and what's your purpose? I ran up a few posts, including mine, and didn't see where anyone had said 'saved'... not saying they didn't. Are you saying God hasn't individually begun the process of salvation within believer's hearts?
Oh I see, probably firstborn...anyway, still I'll ask the last sentence...God's blessing.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 31, 2008, 09:27:01 PM
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Yes, walk us down the Roman road. That's what we need here PT, to be walked down the Roman road....
- b
PT
All are already saved. It is us who have had a John 6:44 experience know about it.
Saved from what? Simple our sins. Read Matt 1:21.
I agree the Born again stuff is misrepresented and wrongly emphasised. There is more to it.
Blessings
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 04:27:22 PM
If Universal Salvation were true,
Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day? :dontknow:
It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs. :mshock:
THINK.
No it isn't. It is counter-productive to not tell people of the truth. These men and women did not commit suicide, they were murdered by those who do not want people to know the truth.
Peacetroll states:
There is only way way to the Kingdom of God and that is through that narrow gate which is Christ.
The other gate you speak of does not lead to the Kingdom of God, but to destruction (which you mention but apparently are failing to comprehend)
.,...........But who will listen to Jesus Christ over others??????? Who will believe the TRUTH over the lies of men????????
Dante says: Peacetroll, do you know what GREEK word was that was translated into the ENGLISH Word DESTRUCTION????
Well, I will tell you. The GREEK word is APOLLUMI!
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to DESTRUCTION (The GREEK word APOLLUMI ), and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matt. 7:13)
And do you know what the GREEK word is that we got the ENGLISH word "LOST" from in the passage below.
"For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was LOST (The Greek word APOLLUMI)" (Matt. 18:11)!
The GREEK word for the "LOST" is APOLLUMI! It is the same APOLLUMI that is translated in Matt. 7:13 as DESTRUCTION.
So follow the LOGIC please.
Jesus came to SAVE, and WILL SAVE, that which has been DESTROYED (Or APOLLUMI)!!!!
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 04:27:22 PM
If Universal Salvation were true,
Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day? :dontknow:
It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs. :mshock:
THINK.
Not really. Quality in the now and in the future for the many fars outweighs the lives of few. That kind of thinking only exposes a self-centered world view.
Bethany
PT-
I think you need to conduct some research on the Lake of Fire. Your whole argument seems to be based in a literal interprtation of scripture. The title of this thread comes to mind as to what needs to be applied to your own question. Except that I would add- "outside of the box".
I have a question for you. Are you familiar with the first Law of Thermodynamics? If not, a basic description might read something like "all energy in the universe is held constant". It may change form through kinetics, but it is never destroyed- only converted. So, even if all unbelievers are resigned to burn in hell then it begs the question to make the assumption that you seem to be making about what that means. And to add to that, I think it needs to be remembered that fire has always been representatve of God. AND- when fire burns something that something becomes part of the fire- in fact becomes fire itself (changes to the form of the mechanism by which it is being converted). So with all of these factors in play then one can deduct what "all in all" means- symbolically speaking of course.
Bethany
We're all going to go through the fire.
Bri
Peacetroll:
The reason one would suffer and die for the Gospel is because loving and dying is far better than living this life. If we have our hope set on living this life, we are not placing our hope in God's presence.
This life is not important (although many will say that it is... human rights, protecting unborn babies, animal rights, etc.). If we look at how easily and how quickly we all die, and the enormous number of people who have died "uselessly," we understand that it is not this life that is important.
But until we feel something of God and His Love towards us, the only thing we have to hold onto is this life.
He wants us to let go of this life. That is when we find true life in Him.
We have always depended on Him. Even your very breathing right now depends solely upon Him.
We often forget that though.
Love,
Bri
Peacetroll,...Men have died for much less!!!!
The Nazi's were willing to die for an idea that,... all men were NOT all EQUAL.
YET, you question why the apostles would die to get out the GREAT NEWS, that the WHOLE WORLD would be saved??
First off:
Your premise is flawed. You are weighting unlimited salvation against, limited salvation.
If we are right, then LIMITED SALVATION never existed. If you are right, then UNLIMITED SALVATION never existed. So in the context of your argument, you must weight UNLIMITED SALVATION against something other than a theory of something that does not exist. Since UNLIMITED and LIMITED SALVATION cannot occur in the same framework of thought.
Secondly:
"Or does not the potter (GOD) have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common (DISHONOR) use? " (Rom. 9:21).
Read the verse above. If this is true, then God created man JUST THE WAY HE IS, and consigns the same vessel of DISHONOR to ETERNAL condemnation. God made a vessel for DISHONOR, and then consigns it to ETERNAL condemnation. To HELL or whatever for all ETERNITY!! (Do I misunderstand you?)
WHAT OPTION DID THAT VESSEL EVER HAVE??? TO BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT HE WAS CREATED TO BE???
Thirdly:
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. (Prov. 16:4).
So, according to you (I guess), God made the WICKED for the day of EVIL and is now going to, consign the EVIL he himself made, to ETERNAL CONDEMNATION??? Does this ALL SEEM FAIR TO YOU? God is going to make ALL THINGS after HIS COUNSEL and then send them to some kind of ETERNAL DEATH OR TORTURE?? (Am I reading you right?)
Fourthly:
Jesus didn't die because of any other reason, but because that is what the FATHER WANTED.
Isaiah 46:10 God will do all His pleasure
Ephesians 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will
I am not sure what, you believe Peacetroll, is going to happen to those who do not believe in Christ. But if you believe in some kind of HELL. ETERNAL DEATH OR TORTURE.
THEN,......
I hope you see the error of your flawed logic.
Peace out brother.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on February 14, 2008, 11:03:40 AM
We're all going to go through the fire.
Bri
That is ambigious.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on February 14, 2008, 11:03:40 AM
We're all going to go through the fire.
Bri
We're all going to go through the second death?????????? That really undercuts faith.
Bethany
Quote from: Bethany on February 14, 2008, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on February 14, 2008, 11:03:40 AM
We're all going to go through the fire.
Bri
We're all going to go through the second death?????????? That really undercuts faith.
Bethany
That is why I said it is ambigious. Is (s)he talking about Lake of Fire, or the fire that comes through tribulation? The Lake of Fire versus the Refiner's Fire.
Simple people equate refiner's fire as the Lake of Fire, ignoring the fac that...
PREPOSITION
Revelation 20:14bThe lake of fire is the second death.
The Lake of Fire = The Second Death.
Revelation 2:12 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.Revelation 20:6-7Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
They miss the part that those who have their part in the first resurrection, are raised prior to the Lake of Fire judgment.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 06:35:04 PMWhy would the martyers of God go through this if, all children of Light, and children of Darkness will recieve salvation?
To bring the children of darkness into the Light so they can be saved.
God is fire. He is purifying us now. He is our destination. He will purge out all dross. The thoughts of man will be brought to light in Him. He will expose all and we will know that He is God.
Love to all,
Bri
If all humans will be saved, both those of the light and those of darkness, and God choses whom He choses, there is no reason to even go out and tell people anything, let alone suffer and die, sometimes with your family members, to spread the gospel.
What is the point if all of the world, light and dark will be blended in Christ again.
What did God say of what is happening here and now.
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
And what is the end declared in the beginning?
Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
The martyrs did what they did as workers in the field, for the sake of the sheep.
Quote from: Peacetroll on February 15, 2008, 05:51:51 PM
If all humans will be saved, both those of the light and those of darkness, and God choses whom He choses, there is no reason to even go out and tell people anything...
Sure there is, to lead those in darkness out of darkness.
Quotelet alone suffer and die, sometimes with your family members, to spread the gospel.
What is the point if all of the world, light and dark will be blended in Christ again.
They won't be blended, there will be no more night (Rev 21:25).
QuoteAnd what is the end declared in the beginning?
Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
That's not the whole end. God divided the Light from the darkness, and those sitting in darkness will see the Light and come to it.
Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the
darkness shall cover the earth, and
gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles
shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Amen Bob.
Everyone in this world is in the darkness. Jesus Christ is the light that came into the world. The people who believe in the world have seen that light.
John 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
Who is going to come to that light?Who are the people who dwell in the shadow, but are not of the darkness?
Isiah 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Quote from: Peacetroll on February 15, 2008, 07:29:18 PMWho are the people who dwell in the shadow, but are not of the darkness?
Those who sit IN darkness do so because they were OF that darkness: "Such as sit IN darkness...because they rebelled against the words of God and condemned His counsel." Those who KEEP MY SAYINGS are likened to a man whose house is built on the Rock (i.e. they are of the Light). Those who do not KEEP MY SAYINGS are likened to a man their house is built on the sand (i.e. they are OF the darkness). So these people ("the redeemed of the Lord") were first IN and OF the darkness.
Psalms 107:10 Such as sit
in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; 11
Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: 12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
But God leads them out of the darkness when they come to the Light so they are no longer of or in the darkness.
Psalms 107:13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. 14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
PT-
If you don't mind me saying- your struggle seems to surpass the arguement of UR. I don't want to assume too much- but it seems to be more of a struggle with salvation in general. Just something to think about. If that is true believe me- we have all been there...
Bethany
Quote from: Peacetroll on February 15, 2008, 05:51:51 PM
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
You are correct Peacetroll that God will do ALL HIS GOOD PLEASURE and WILL. Since it says:Isaiah 46:10 God will do all His pleasure
Ephesians 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will
And what is the Father's Good Pleasure, WILL and Desire???
1 Timothy 2:4 God will have all to be saved
1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth
Right here you have THE answer. God WILLS AND DESIRES SOMETHING. And IT is ALWAYS DONE!!! What does he desire?? That the WHOLE WORLD IS SAVED. Will IT be done??? YES!!!
GODS WILL= ALL SAVED
Will God's Will ALWAYS BE DONE? YES!!! According to the WORD OF GOD.
Hence,........ALL WILL BE SAVED!!Who Peacetroll, will fulfill the WILL, Desire and Pleasure of the Father???
John 8:29 He (Jesus) always does what pleases His Father
Who is Jesus, Peacetroll??John 4:42 Jesus is the Savior of the world
1 John 4:14 Jesus is the Savior of the world
Colossians 1:15 Jesus is the firstborn of all creation
Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people
But Peacetroll, is Jesus ABLE to do what the Father WILL'S??Hebrews 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
John 12:32 Jesus draws all to Himself
Ephesians 4:10 Jesus will fill all things
And what will Jesus DO with ALL that his Father has given him Peacetroll??John 17:2 Jesus will give eternal life to all whom His Father gives to Him
Who or what has been given to Jesus by the Father Peacetroll?? ALL things and peoples or just some things and peoples??Hebrews 1:2 He is heir of all things
John 3:35 All has been given into His hand
John 13:3 The Father gave Him all things
But Peacetroll, Who will be condemned and who will be saved??Romans 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live
1 Corinthians 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live
What will the end result of Jesus' work and God the Father's WILL be???Revelation 5:13 All creation seen praising God
1 Corinthians 15:28 God will be all in all
Romans 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty
Colossians 1:20 All reconciled unto God
1 Corinthians 4:5 All will have praise of God
Hebrews 8:11-12 All will know God
Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all
Romans 11:26 All Israel will be saved
Ephesians 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times
1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed
Philippians 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord
Just the fact that I am putting effort and time into telling you of the GREAT NEWS.
Should be reason enough for you to understand that telling the world, that the WHOLE WORLD WILL BE SAVED, is truly a worthy expedition. And yes, men are willing to die or be tortured to get the truth out about God.
Not to mention, that that is what the Father has commanded us to do. If the Father commands us to do anything we SHOULD be willing to DIE for what he wants from us. Since he is the one who we owe EVERYTHING TO in the first place!!!
My Father commands me to do something. He has saved me and the WHOLE WORLD. That!! In and of itself SHOULD be reason enough.
The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart.
Bri
Peacetroll said: There would be no point. Absolutely NO point to suffer and allow their families to suffer so much if in the end, all will have clarity and complete understanding anyhow.
It would be like trying to make a difference in a dream, when in a few moments you'll wake up anyhow and understand everything crystal clear as will the others characters in your dream, therefore it's only common sense to see the fallacy in such motivation as you propose.
:HeartThrob:The point is that by knowing the truth people can be saved from darkened minds. Paul spoke of unbelievers having their minds darkened by ignorance. Because unbelievers minds are dark, devoid of light---they think God is their enemy or they deny the existence of God altogether. Many people in the church act as if this darkness of mind only has repercussions in the afterlife. But what about the repercussions of a dark mind here and now? Didn't Jesus say himself he was concerned about the quality of life we experience here and now? He said, "I came that you might have life and have it more abundantly." We need to be "saved" all right...Just look at our world. Look around at anyone who is going through their third or fourth divorce. Or anyone hooked on narcotics and can't break free. Or anyone struggling with suicidal thoughts day in and day out. Or a single mom trying to raise her three kids all alone on minimum wage. When people go through these things and they don't know that God loves them and that he came for them, that his presence is available to them, then life on Earth can be a living hell.
What do we need to be saved from?? From darkened minds. When he shines his light in us and the light begins to penetrate our minds then we know him and what he did for us. That changes everything. We have peace. We have hope. We have joy in this world even when the mountains are crashing all around us. If you've ever been through any trial like that then you know it's worth it to share the gospel with others, because you know that knowing the love of Christ in the here and now makes all the difference in the world.
You don't want people to live through hellish circumstances of life without knowing that he has given us hope and joy. When they hear the truth then that joy and peace can be a reality for them even in the worst circumstances. If you've ever seen anyone suffer, then you know it's worth it. That's why the apostles layed down their lives and were sawn in two, or crucified. Paul said to Timothy "From infancy you have known the holy scriptures...which are able to save your soul (mind)." Our souls have to know the truth in order to dispel the darkness. Hearing the gospel shows people the truth. Isn't it worth it to tell the gospel so that someone else can live with peace and hope in this life and know that God loves them instead of living their whole lives lonely and afraid thinking they were never loved? They would realize when their life ended that they were wrong their whole lives---Surprise, God loved them all along, but what a lot of years of suffering and agony struggling along without the love of God. :sigh:
Hope,
I agree with what you wrote about the here and now and the darkened mind. I, also, believe that there is an effect in the age to come. Being born again just puts us on the path to becoming like Him as we are conformed to His image and likeness. This is a process and no one will avoid this process.
Those who come to God in this life start this process now, but those who wait until the age to come will go throught the same process then. In fact, I think that the process now must be much easier than it will be in the age to come or there would not be so much urgency to compel others to come to Christ while still in this life.
A lot of the weeping and gnashing of teeth will be when many find out like Esau that they sold their birthright for a bowl of soup or for carnal pleasures.
I really do not think we have any idea how much worse it will be to wait until the next age to bow the knee to Christ. As believers in UR we are so blessed to know that all will eventually come in that we naturally diminish the importance of when we come in and this is a mistake it appears.
John
I, also, believe that there is an effect in the age to come. Being born again just puts us on the path to becoming like Him as we are conformed to His image and likeness. This is a process and no one will avoid this process.
Kratos, I agree about the process. As far as what all the process of correction includes after this life, that I'm inconclusive about. For me it suffices to know that any correction that my Father hands out to anyone will be for the purpose of correction and teaching. I don't know if this is how anyone will feel during that corrective age, but it always helps me to know when I am going through a trial that it will result in good (inside me) and it won't last forever. Knowing the heart of God makes all the difference. But I think when the mainstream church relegates salvation to the arena where being saved or not saved means you're either going to heaven or hell (correction) then they miss the main point of what salvation is supposed to be. Salvation is for changing us now, giving us the quality of life our heavenly Father desires for us. I think sometimes we can forget that when we talk about issues like salvation. So many times it seems to be about the "ever after". Maybe that's why it's so hard for unbeleivers to relate? Just some thoughts./color]
hope wrote: From infancy you have known the holy scriptures...which are able to save your soul
Whoops---I need to make a correction myself! The scripture where Paul was speaking to Timothy says, "from infancy you have know the holy scriptures...which are able to make you wise for salvation." I accidentally blended that with the scripture from the book of James which says to receive the word "which is able to save your soul(s)". Same topic, but two different scriptures! :blush:
God is not running damage control,..........Right?? Since John 17:2 Jesus will give eternal life to all whom His Father gives to Him and John 13:3 The Father gave Him all things
So, there is no immediacy to a person becoming born again or of God or whatever,...right? Since, 1 Timothy 2:4 says: God will have all to be saved?
God has the whole of creation under his control,.........Right??? Since Ephesians 1:11 says: "God works all after the counsel of His will".
I respect what you (Hope and Kratos) are saying and I agree that the light brightens darkened minds, but if I read you correctly, you are stating the importance of most humans believing in the here and now.
To me it seems that all of the saving, is UP TO GOD, and not us. Ephesians 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times
None of us can cause anyone to believe in God, The Truth, or Universal Salvation.
Only God can do this and only when HE desires to do so. In fact, only God can do anything with any lasting relevance. Of course he uses US as a vehicle to what the "Ends" are, but does he really NEED "US"??
I think NOT.
Does he choose to use us. Yes!
God calls,.........then the "Called" respond.
God "chooses", from the "Called".
And from "The Chosen", there are the select few, that are selected to be enlightened.
But,....But,....this is ALL OF GOD.
No man can save another. There is nothing we can do to SAVE anyone. It is ALL in God's divine plan to do AS HE WILLS.
Proverbs 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps
Proverbs 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands
Psalms 33:15 God fashions all hearts
Psalms 90:3 God turns man to destruction then says "return"
Evil and unbelief serve a very important purpose in this world. God is using (IMHO) this world to show man the difference between Good and Evil.
Quotations from the Bible: via L. Ray Smith.
"...an experience of EVIL has God given to the sons of man..." (Ecc. 1:13,
"...I [God] will raise up EVIL against thee..." (II Sam. 12:11).
"I [God] created the waster to DESTROY" (Isa. 54:16).
"The Lord has made...the WICKED for the day of EVIL" (Prov. 16:4).
"...I [God] will bring EVIL from the north, and a great DESTRUCTION (Jer. 4:6).
God told a "lying spirit" to "...go forth, and do so [lie]" (I Kings 22:22).
"He [God] turned their heart to HATE His people..." (Psalm 105:25).
"Behold I [God] frame EVIL against you..." (Jer. 18:11).
"For God locks up all together in STUBBORNNESS [that's an evil]..." (Rom. 11:32).
"...shall there be EVIL in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Amos 3:6).
"Thus saith the Lord of hosts... go and SMITE Amalek... DESTROY... SLAY both man and woman, infant and suckling..." (I Sam. 15:2-3).
"...God shall send them strong DELUSION, that they should believe A LIE" (II Thes. 2:11).
God has a plan and that plan includes "Most" of men "Not believing" in the "Here and Now". God rose up Pharaoh for that very day,........for a reason. It was, at the very least, to show CONTRAST of good and evil (Among other reasons).
That is why God planted the tree of GOOD and evil in the Garden in the first place.
Knowing that man would partake of it. It was God's plan for mankind to sink into the knowledge of Good and Evil, by taking part of the Tree. For if our ancestors had never partaken of that knowledge, there would have never had been any "Contrast". We would have only known the Glory of God. Which would have seemed "The norm" and nothing special. Since we would have had nothing to gauge God's Goodness against.
This world is a classroom, of sorts, to show the Divine Goodness of God. Our bodies and this life is only temporary (We are Tents). A kind of "Matrix", if you will, to teach us a very significant lesson.
And that lesson is that Evil is useless, worthless, destructive and in it's essence,......hopeless and fruitless. Once this lesson is learned, what is the rest of the lesson????
To lean not unto our own understanding, but unto God's. Since even we don't know what is best for us. God is the ONLY one who knows what is Good and Best for us ALL!
Now if we learn this lesson, we go on to submit our entire WILL unto God. To become "Robots" or "Sheep", (if you will) for Christ.
To submit every SINGLE THOUGHT and DESIRE to him!
YET,....this does not mean that speaking the truth of the word of God is not "Worth Dying For". In fact, it makes it that much MORE, worth dying for! To be part of the "lesson plan". We are told to spread the Good News to the masses by the Father. Is our life that important to "Not give it up"??? NO! It is important for us to give it up, if need be! To give our very lives to help teach mankind the lessons that God IS giving. And of course, we are not doing it, but Christ though us.
In giving up our lives. What would we be losing??? Since to LIVE is CHRIST, and to DIE is GAIN. We are but a blink in time. We are temps, that God uses to enlighten his "planned group" to the knowledge of the truth. We are from dust and to dust we shall return. So what is the loss of one of us. NOTHING. Since we will all put on immortality in the end. This is not our REAL world. Our Father's Kingdom is our REAL world.
It is true that anyone who is not on the road of Salvation in this life WILL take part in the Lake of Fire. BUT, is that a bad thing??
I do not believe so. Since anything of God cannot be bad in its ends. It may not be a pleasurable experience, but it WILL be a much needed one!
Is this life a pleasurable experience?? I do not believe so (At least not a lot of the time). But it is a much needed one!
Either way, mankind will come to the knowledge of the truth.
Every man woman and child will learn the much needed lesson. And that is that GOD and GOD only has the right answers, the truth, and the ultimate knowledge to direct mankind's lives and destinies to PURE Contentment and more importantly a continuing knowledge and relationship with the one being in the Universe who can make our lives worth living.
Once we all learn this lesson, we will all walk hand in hand and side by side (Mindfully) with our Creator, Father God.
This of course will never be expressed FULLY in our lives here on Earth, because of our situation this is an impossibility for the time being. But, I believe, it should be the guiding point to direct us.
Giving up our every desire to allow our minds to hold "THE EVERY DESIRE OF GOD", should be our ultimate goal in life. And that includes that not all will be saved in the here and now (Since God does all his good pleasure, when he decides to do it). BUT, that ALL WILL BE SAVED as a final result (All will come to the knowledge of the truth). And that GOD and GOD only has control over the ULTIMATE FATE OF MANKIND (Which is Salvation to all, by and through Jesus Christ). Once we understand THIS, we can grow in a certain peace and contentment.
My take on the whole ball of wax, in a nutshell.
:goodpost: Dante...agreed! Sharing parts of your post as a followup to a study we did last night...thanks, God's blessing.
Dante says: To lean not unto our own understanding, but unto God's. Since even we don't know what is best for us. God is the ONLY one who knows what is Good and Best for us ALL!
Yes, I agree...I believe that coming to know that is the salvation of our minds. And I do believe that all come to him in their own proper time that he has foreordained, some now and the others later. However, I don't think that precludes us feeling sorrow for those who suffer until they do come to know him. Jesus cried over Jerusalem and basically said "how I longed to gather you in my arms as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but you wouldn't let me. Now your house is left to you desolate." He knew that their eyes were darkened and they couldn't see who he was, yet he still grieved over the trial they would go through even though in the end it would bring about a good result. I was saying that sharing the gospel is worth it...that's the point I was making because the truth brings people to the place that they trust that God knows what is best and that his heart is good and that he loves us. That is the understanding, the light that dispels the darkness. I was addressing the point that peacetroll said that if UR is true then suffering for preaching the gospel as Paul and other apostles did wouldn't be worth it. I was saying that yes it is worth it because when people hear the truth their lives change here and now and they know God's peace and love now. That's before we even begin to talk about the hereafter. Even if the results were only for this life, then yes even then sharing the truth would be worth it. And yes we speak it, and yes only God gives the grace for people to understand. I totally agree. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: hope on February 18, 2008, 04:50:38 AM
Dante says: To lean not unto our own understanding, but unto God's. Since even we don't know what is best for us. God is the ONLY one who knows what is Good and Best for us ALL!
Yes, I agree...I believe that coming to know that is the salvation of our minds. And I do believe that all come to him in their own proper time that he has foreordained, some now and the others later. However, I don't think that precludes us feeling sorrow for those who suffer until they do come to know him. Jesus cried over Jerusalem and basically said "how I longed to gather you in my arms as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but you wouldn't let me. Now your house is left to you desolate." He knew that their eyes were darkened and they couldn't see who he was, yet he still grieved over the trial they would go through even though in the end it would bring about a good result. I was saying that sharing the gospel is worth it...that's the point I was making because the truth brings people to the place that they trust that God knows what is best and that his heart is good and that he loves us. That is the understanding, the light that dispels the darkness. I was addressing the point that peacetroll said that if UR is true then suffering for preaching the gospel as Paul and other apostles did wouldn't be worth it. I was saying that yes it is worth it because when people hear the truth their lives change here and now and they know God's peace and love now. That's before we even begin to talk about the hereafter. Even if the results were only for this life, then yes even then sharing the truth would be worth it. And yes we speak it, and yes only God gives the grace for people to understand. I totally agree. :HeartThrob:
Amen! Makes a lot of sense. These last couple of post are really helpful to me personally as God works on taking me now beyond the initial (blessed) realization of UR...for once He shows us that, then there's a whole lot of other (good) re-learning to do...the real messages of scripture and life that orthodoxy didn't teach us. Thanks! God's blessing.
Many thanks, Dante! We really are instruments in the Maker's hands. So true.
I was thinking this morning how people get so irate when someone suggests that God controls our lives. The flesh does not want to be controlled, and neither do most of us "Christians." And some will respond, "well then, are we just robots??!?"
Yep. Part of God's machinery. Even though our flesh doesn't like that idea.
We have all been bought with a price, and we are not our own.
That's certainly NOT "the American dream."
However, the flesh is still there, and it's in us all. But Christ is arising in us, here a little, there a little.
Oh, that the daystar will arise in my heart today!
Blessings to ya!
Brian
Thanks "Jabcat", "Hope", "whyiloveitaly" for all the kind words and thoughts.
Again, I must just thank God and all of you for making this place such a great area to post, and get thoughts and ideas out. This life can be hard, and this kind of interaction is an excellent way of to feel the reality of God's oneness. Which does so much for all of the individuals that post here.
God Loves ALL of his Creation!
Peace to you all brothers and sisters.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 04:27:22 PM
If Universal Salvation were true,
Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day? :dontknow:
It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs. :mshock:
THINK.
Are you serious?
Listen, you do not know what righteousness is if you let evil continue for the sake of saving your own life.
James 4:17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
Don't just THINK, think before you speak.
Proverbs 15:2The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 24, 2008, 06:35:04 PM
What rebuttal? What scriptural answer?
Why would they endure all that the Saints endured for the truth?
WHY would they go through what Paul says they did? Why did he?
Hebrews 11:36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Sawn asunder! Remember what the rabbis say happened to Isaiah?They sawed him asunder.
[Isaiah] thereupon pronounced [the Divine] Name and was swallowed up by a cedar. The cedar, however, was brought and sawn asunder. When the saw reached his month he died. [And this was his penalty] for having said, 'And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips'. (Babylonian Talmud, Yebamoth 49b, Soncino Edition).
The rabbis claim that Isaiah was killed by having his own mouth sawed in half because he chastised the Israelites for their unclean lips. The rabbis have it that it was Isaiah who was wrong, not Israel.
Why would the martyers of God go through this if , all children of Light, and children of Darkness will recieve salvation?
There would be no point. Absolutely NO point to suffer and allow their families to suffer so much if in the end, all will have clarity and complete understanding anyhow.
It would be like trying to make a difference in a dream, when in a few moments you'll wake up anyhow and understand everything crystal clear as will the others characters in your dream, therefore it's only common sense to see the fallacy in such motivation as you propose.
Once again, I'm not necessarily asking you to think Seeker, for you would certainly oppose me if you could in the simple truth of 2 + 2 being 4 if you had the ability.
He Makes an interesting Point
I mean lets face it, they are all going to know the Love of God anyway, sure maybe not in this life if you dont tell them but after death so Why go to all that extent
Unless
1. Guy above with his traditional thoughts are correct
2. Both universalism and traditional is wrong
3. God is just messing with everyones heads down here to confuse people
4. The people told the message and just got dealed a bad deck of cards for doing what others didnt want or think was true
Another thing is.. How then do you resolve vs like
"Text: Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his throne of glory; 32 and all the nations will be gathered before him and he will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come! you who are the blessed ones of my Father, inherit the kingdom that was prepared for you from the beginning of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me."
37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and fed you, or thirsty and we gave you a drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and we invited you in, or naked and we clothed you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and we came to you?"
40 And answering, the King will say to them, "Truly I say to you, as much as you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."
41 Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been kept in readiness for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you did not give me anything to eat, I was thirsty and you did not give me a drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I was naked and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me."
Seems pretty straight forward, no?
Edward, have you known something to be true, something that would change everything? Because it seems from your answer, you have not and therefore do not understand what is involved in standing up for the truth.
Peacetroll creates a strawman, he says that we should not stand up for what is true, if what we believe is true will be revealed anyways. That is a SELF preservation, not the truth. That in fact is sin. Peacetroll makes universal salvation for all, a license to sin because he believes, "hey they are saved anyways, right?"
Here is the truth. Just because everyone in the end is reconciled in Christ Jesus, does not mean everyone is given the same reward. Remember the parable of the talent? Well some people will lose what they had because they lived in selfishness. Remember the Prodical son? Some will have spent all their inheritance and have nothing to show for their lives at the end, but they are still sons.
The truth is, there is no perpetual torment in hell, there is torment for those who live for self, because they would have lost everything, but whether in this life or in the resurrection, this torment only last a moment and are self-inflected pain. God's wrath will make the wicked nothing. He does not reward good for evil.
The reason people are killed for the truth, is they want to remain wicked and don't like to hear that.
Quote from: SOtW on June 15, 2008, 08:56:17 PM
Edward, have you known something to be true, something that would change everything? Because it seems from your answer, you have not and therefore do not understand what is involved in standing up for the truth.
Peacetroll creates a strawman, he says that we should not stand up for what is true, if what we believe is true will be revealed anyways. That is a SELF preservation, not the truth. That in fact is sin. Peacetroll makes universal salvation for all, a license to sin because he believes, "hey they are saved anyways, right?"
Here is the truth. Just because everyone in the end is reconciled in Christ Jesus, does not mean everyone is given the same reward. Remember the parable of the talent? Well some people will lose what they had because they lived in selfishness. Remember the Prodical son? Some will have spent all their inheritance and have nothing to show for their lives at the end, but they are still sons.
The truth is, there is no perpetual torment in hell, there is torment for those who live for self, because they would have lost everything, but whether in this life or in the resurrection, this torment only last a moment and are self-inflected pain. God's wrath will make the wicked nothing. He does not reward good for evil.
The reason people are killed for the truth, is they want to remain wicked and don't like to hear that.
How do you know its true for everyone and not just made up through man trying to understand existence
Can you honestly be sure you are right, I think not
Quote from: edward on June 16, 2008, 02:29:03 AM
How do you know its true for everyone and not just made up through man trying to understand existence
Can you honestly be sure you are right, I think not
What do you believe at this point and time Edward?
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 29, 2008, 04:26:16 PM
Forgiving one's enemies is what the Son's and daughters of God do.
Why do you think Jesus gave us the power to be called the children of God, Peacetroll? For what purpose are we called and others not?
If while on the UR side of the fence, you never considered the question, then that's perhaps that's why you left for the other side?
Like you I seek to see if UR works with all scripture. If it's the truth, I want to know. If not, so be it, I will bend to grace. So far, any question I have asked concerning the logical implications of UR have been answered by scripture through the leading of the Holy Spirit. I had a lot of assumptions to identify and get past along the way, but that is what enables us to re-ask the questions and understand scripture from a different perspective. So far, I have yet to find anything that makes me believe universal restoration of all things is not God's plan for mankind.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 29, 2008, 04:26:16 PMAt anyrate, if everyone's going to be saved, I just don't see much point in proselytizing myself.
Again, this begs a similar question. Why do you proselytize? What is the goal? Is it possible the goal, as you understand and as it has been taught for centuries, is based on an incorrect assumption that is contradicted by other scripture?
If your goal is incorrect because it is formed out of an incorrect asumption about the Great Commission based on a belief in eternal hell and the need to save others from hell, then it may also be possble that this is why you can see no motivation for those who believe in UR to lay down their lives for others simply because Christ said this is what we must do if we wish to follow Him on that narrow, rocky path.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 29, 2008, 04:26:16 PM
but if all men are not by defacto saved, it seems to be a much bigger motivation to preach that their is Salvation in Christ to those who don't believe in him.[/b]
I don't see how. Are you saying fear of punishment is a greater motivator than Love of God? I doubt any believer ever suffered martyrdom out of fear of punishment. Those are the very ones who became
lapsi and sprinkled incense to Caesar because of their fear which showed their Love was not yet perfected.
Mary Ellen
Quote from: edwardHow do you know its true for everyone and not just made up through man trying to understand existence
Can you honestly be sure you are right, I think not
Then don't use fallacy to support what you think, otherwise what you think is in error.