from http://en.allexperts.com/q/Methodists-957/Hell.htm
Summary; Hell is real, Jesus talked about it, there is no middle ground. Universalism...is a heresy...is eternally lethal...do not go there....is it loving to the saint to grant the unrepentant sinner the same eternal state? Where is the justice in that. Never forget that God is also perfectly just. If there is no difference, no justice, then what did Jesus die for?..if they ignore us, it is not ours or God's fault. James.
Question
Hi. I have been reading a lot lately on websites ran by various denominations, and have carefully compared what they say to multiple translations of the bible, and to me it seems clear that "hell" as taught by many "mainstream" denominations, does not exist. The first problem is that four words with three different meanings: Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna are all translated "hell" in the King James version. On top of that, a lot of the current views on hell originated with pagan practices and some of the teachings of Plato. Hell was and is used by many church leaders as a "scare tactic" to get people to go to church. But Jesus said we should follow the bible for love of God, not fear of what he will do to us if we don't. I don't understand why so many people could believe that a loving God could be such a monster and torture people forever and ever in horrifying agony, completely ignoring their screams. The bible teaches forgiveness. And how would the saved feel in the afterlife knowing many of their loved ones are being tortured in horrifying agony and will continue to be tortured "forever and ever"? I just don't understand how so many "mainstream" Christians can believe that God is such a monster that he would torture people in horrifying agony "forever and ever" and ignore their screams. The bible teaches that the wage of sin is DEATH, and that the gift of Christ is eternal life, but if hell is eternal, wouldn't that count as "eternal life"? The bible teaches that starting with Adam, all sinners that aren't saved return to the dust they came from and become ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous. Many scholars say that if people read the American Standard Version of the bible without any preconceived thoughts they had been taught, they would never reach the conclusion that this horrifying place called "hell" exists where God sends people to be tortured. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are? I'm not trying to criticise you, I'm just trying to understand why so many people believe this pagan teaching of a sinister God that would do this to people. After all, Satan deceived Eve by telling her she wouldn't die for sinning, so by saying sinners live forever in hell, it kind of seems like you're agreeing with Satan :(
Answer
Josh,
I don't have my ASV right in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it includes Matthew, chapter 25, verse 41 and verse 46, both of which point out that the end of the wicked person is the same as the end of satan and the demons. If Jesus believed in a permanent hell, that is good enough for me. I am sure the ASV includes Luke 16:19 and following, where we find that death involves torment on the one hand and reward on the other hand, that there is no middle ground, and that there is no movement between them. Again, we find Jesus teaching of a literal place of unending punishment for sins.
You have embraced a common fallacy, namely, that your own personal definition of "a loving God" must be the correct one. Only God gets to decide what "a loving God" really means. After all, is it loving to the saint to grant the unrepentant sinner the same eternal state? Where is the justice in that. Never forget that God is also perfectly just. If there is no difference, no justice, then what did Jesus die for? I'll tell you what he died for. He died to save us from our sins and from the result of those sins. He died to save us from hell, by whatever name we choose to call it.
Jesus did not invent the concept of hell. He did, of course, develop it more than any previous teacher. And he taught us that the only sure and certain way to avoid it is to believe in him, and in God who sent him.
That a pagan may have gotten an idea right does not then make the idea wrong. That there is no judgment, no punishment, flies in the face of any straightforward reading of Jesus' teaching. This is not Biblical Christianity. No matter what they choose to call it, it is not the faith espoused in the Scriptures. Universalism is not new, nor is it true. It is a heresy that has been around almost as long as the Church itself. But many in the modern Church have lost the courage to name a heresy when they see one. Indeed, many have lost the ability to detect a heresy in the first place. I have not lost either.
Here's my question for you. Is it loving to allow someone you care about to walk over a cliff without warning them? Is it loving to anyone to be able to prevent their injury, and yet allow them to be injured? In law, that is known as criminal negligence. Is that loving? But if we warn them to the best of our ability, and they still walk off the cliff, or continue to injure themselves, then it is no longer our fault. Nor is it the rock's fault that the person fell onto it. Nor is it the injuring object's fault that the person encountered it. We can agree that the persons who, having been warned of the consequences of their actions, continued to engage in those actions are themselves at fault. So it is with scripture. God has warned us of the consequences of our actions. Just as engaging in dangerous outdoor behavior has permanent consequences, engaging in dangerous spiritual practices likewise has permanent consequences. It is not God's fault that we sin. It is God's plan that we be redeemed from sin. God has warned us of the consequences of our actions. It is up to us to heed the warning, and to sound the alarm for all who will hear us. If they ignore us, it is not our fault or God's that they perish. However, it IS our fault if we fail to warn them. Thus I warn you that the path you are investigating is an eternally lethal one. Do not go there.
I hope this helps some. Feel free to follow up as necessary.
Respectfully,
Wayne Tucker
:sigh: Maybe someone would like to post some replies to ol' Wayner on the site.
I posted one, if it gets past their spam checker, it's a wait and see, lol
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 17, 2009, 06:30:37 AM
I posted one, if it gets past their spam checker, it's a wait and see, lol
Excellent, thanks Paul for sharing the GOOD news. I think it will get through. I'll check.
At least they admit UR isn't something new.
"Universalism is not new, nor is it true. It is a heresy that has been around as long as Jesus Himself." :sigh:
Again it seems the answer is based on translation of of words.
Jesus did indeed warn. Hell is indeed something to avoid. Etc.
The problem is again 'forever' and to a lesser extend in this case 'all'
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2009, 07:23:35 AM
Again it seems the answer is based on translation of of words.
Jesus did indeed warn. Hell is indeed something to avoid. Etc.
The problem is again 'forever' and to a lesser extend in this case 'all'
Yes, the translation of words is a biggie. As far as Wayne's (and many others) references to Jesus talking about hell, I personally believe for the most part Jesus was warning the Jewish priesthood they were about to lose their place of privilege, as salvation was about to be taken to us, the nations, the gentiles. IMO, it does get back to those word translations as well, as He talked about Gehenna, not "hell". I do agree, facing God in a rebellious position is definitely something to avoid...but the literal burning "hell"
torture of ET, I'm not seeing it :coolsmile:. http://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html
Yeah, pretty interesting how long he admitted UR had been around :mshock:.
QuoteIs it loving to allow someone you care about to walk over a cliff without warning them? Is it loving to anyone to be able to prevent their injury, and yet allow them to be injured? In law, that is known as criminal negligence. Is that loving?
you might ask that question:
- would it be love to create such a cliff
- only with the purpose to push countless persons down this cliff
- and after doing so, keeping the terrible injured persons alive in everlasting agony
Quote from: sven on June 17, 2009, 06:22:26 PM
QuoteIs it loving to allow someone you care about to walk over a cliff without warning them? Is it loving to anyone to be able to prevent their injury, and yet allow them to be injured? In law, that is known as criminal negligence. Is that loving?
you might ask that question:
- would it be love to create such a cliff
- only with the purpose to push countless persons down this cliff
- and after doing so, keeping the terrible injured persons alive in everlasting agony
LOL more or less what I was thinking, but you hit it on the head! Good job!
Why in the world did he insist that Luke 16:19 about the rich man and Lazarus was a true story??? IT'S A PARABLE!!
QuoteIs it loving to allow someone you care about to walk over a cliff without warning them? Is it loving to anyone to be able to prevent their injury, and yet allow them to be injured? In law, that is known as criminal negligence. Is that loving? But if we warn them to the best of our ability, and they still walk off the cliff, or continue to injure themselves, then it is no longer our fault.
Is it loving to create a person knowing they will walk off this cliff and die, when you could have created them in another position in which they would not die, or not create them at all? And does it make sense to create a person in such a case as that they would die, when in fact you DID NOT WANT THEM TO DIE??
No. It doesn't. In the first case: it would not be love. In the second case: you can't control yourself and/or you have a split personality.
Haven't seen my responce show up yet. Perhaps though someone read it some place and a seed planted.
Good points all. The Lazarus parable is HUGE in mainstream to make the case for "the final destination and punishment of the poor lost souls" :sigh:. Part of the "Jesus talked more about hell than He did about heaven". :sigh: again.
I would like to respond to this part: You have embraced a common fallacy, namely, that your own personal definition of "a loving God" must be the correct one. Only God gets to decide what "a loving God" really means.
My Response: Hogwash! That sounds like something an abusive parent would say to a child. "I define what a loving parent is!" "Not you!" "Now, I'm going to burn all your friends who disobey me and that is my kinda love!" Ridiculous!
If we can outlove God and have more compassion for the most evil of us, then we are ABOVE not below God. If we can outforgive, have a higher sense of justice than God, then God is below us.
Everyone who has ever died and come back and remembered what happened will testify to the fact of an immense and loving God. Some have had some "forays" in a hell-like place, but were never left there when they cried out to the Lord.
If God is hateful and nasty enough to allow the torture of 2/3 of this creation because they got their dogma wrong in a mere 70 or 80 years here on earth, then his heaven couldn't be all that great of a place to be.. How much are we going to enjoy ourselves knowing that most of our friends/family/associates are being tortured for all eternity? I know I couldn't.
I am not biblical literalist so I don't get into debates over points of scripture. However, I do rely heavily on the witness within and it I feel like those who talk about God in such an unkind way that he's worse than Hitler, make me feel angry inside. It's like they are slamming a good friend of mine.
Quote from: jabcat on June 17, 2009, 12:59:57 AM
from http://en.allexperts.com/q/Methodists-957/Hell.htm
Summary; Hell is real, Jesus talked about it, there is no middle ground. Universalism...is a heresy...is eternally lethal...do not go there....is it loving to the saint to grant the unrepentant sinner the same eternal state? Where is the justice in that. Never forget that God is also perfectly just. If there is no difference, no justice, then what did Jesus die for?..if they ignore us, it is not ours or God's fault. James.
Question
Hi. I have been reading a lot lately on websites ran by various denominations, and have carefully compared what they say to multiple translations of the bible, and to me it seems clear that "hell" as taught by many "mainstream" denominations, does not exist. The first problem is that four words with three different meanings: Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna are all translated "hell" in the King James version. On top of that, a lot of the current views on hell originated with pagan practices and some of the teachings of Plato. Hell was and is used by many church leaders as a "scare tactic" to get people to go to church. But Jesus said we should follow the bible for love of God, not fear of what he will do to us if we don't. I don't understand why so many people could believe that a loving God could be such a monster and torture people forever and ever in horrifying agony, completely ignoring their screams. The bible teaches forgiveness. And how would the saved feel in the afterlife knowing many of their loved ones are being tortured in horrifying agony and will continue to be tortured "forever and ever"? I just don't understand how so many "mainstream" Christians can believe that God is such a monster that he would torture people in horrifying agony "forever and ever" and ignore their screams. The bible teaches that the wage of sin is DEATH, and that the gift of Christ is eternal life, but if hell is eternal, wouldn't that count as "eternal life"? The bible teaches that starting with Adam, all sinners that aren't saved return to the dust they came from and become ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous. Many scholars say that if people read the American Standard Version of the bible without any preconceived thoughts they had been taught, they would never reach the conclusion that this horrifying place called "hell" exists where God sends people to be tortured. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are? I'm not trying to criticise you, I'm just trying to understand why so many people believe this pagan teaching of a sinister God that would do this to people. After all, Satan deceived Eve by telling her she wouldn't die for sinning, so by saying sinners live forever in hell, it kind of seems like you're agreeing with Satan :(
Answer
Josh,
I don't have my ASV right in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it includes Matthew, chapter 25, verse 41 and verse 46, both of which point out that the end of the wicked person is the same as the end of satan and the demons. If Jesus believed in a permanent hell, that is good enough for me. I am sure the ASV includes Luke 16:19 and following, where we find that death involves torment on the one hand and reward on the other hand, that there is no middle ground, and that there is no movement between them. Again, we find Jesus teaching of a literal place of unending punishment for sins.
You have embraced a common fallacy, namely, that your own personal definition of "a loving God" must be the correct one. Only God gets to decide what "a loving God" really means. After all, is it loving to the saint to grant the unrepentant sinner the same eternal state? Where is the justice in that. Never forget that God is also perfectly just. If there is no difference, no justice, then what did Jesus die for? I'll tell you what he died for. He died to save us from our sins and from the result of those sins. He died to save us from hell, by whatever name we choose to call it.
Jesus did not invent the concept of hell. He did, of course, develop it more than any previous teacher. And he taught us that the only sure and certain way to avoid it is to believe in him, and in God who sent him.
That a pagan may have gotten an idea right does not then make the idea wrong. That there is no judgment, no punishment, flies in the face of any straightforward reading of Jesus' teaching. This is not Biblical Christianity. No matter what they choose to call it, it is not the faith espoused in the Scriptures. Universalism is not new, nor is it true. It is a heresy that has been around almost as long as the Church itself. But many in the modern Church have lost the courage to name a heresy when they see one. Indeed, many have lost the ability to detect a heresy in the first place. I have not lost either.
Here's my question for you. Is it loving to allow someone you care about to walk over a cliff without warning them? Is it loving to anyone to be able to prevent their injury, and yet allow them to be injured? In law, that is known as criminal negligence. Is that loving? But if we warn them to the best of our ability, and they still walk off the cliff, or continue to injure themselves, then it is no longer our fault. Nor is it the rock's fault that the person fell onto it. Nor is it the injuring object's fault that the person encountered it. We can agree that the persons who, having been warned of the consequences of their actions, continued to engage in those actions are themselves at fault. So it is with scripture. God has warned us of the consequences of our actions. Just as engaging in dangerous outdoor behavior has permanent consequences, engaging in dangerous spiritual practices likewise has permanent consequences. It is not God's fault that we sin. It is God's plan that we be redeemed from sin. God has warned us of the consequences of our actions. It is up to us to heed the warning, and to sound the alarm for all who will hear us. If they ignore us, it is not our fault or God's that they perish. However, it IS our fault if we fail to warn them. Thus I warn you that the path you are investigating is an eternally lethal one. Do not go there.
I hope this helps some. Feel free to follow up as necessary.
Respectfully,
Wayne Tucker
:sigh: Maybe someone would like to post some replies to ol' Wayner on the site.
I think his argument was pretty convincing.
Quote from: Esoterica on June 22, 2009, 01:43:31 AM
My Response: Hogwash! That sounds like something an abusive parent would say to a child. "I define what a loving parent is!" "Not you!" "Now, I'm going to burn all your friends who disobey me and that is my kinda love!" Ridiculous!
If we can outlove God and have more compassion for the most evil of us, then we are ABOVE not below God. If we can outforgive, have a higher sense of justice than God, then God is below us.
:thumbsup:
Same goes for "justice". I get tired of hearing how its "just" and "fair" that God should burn people for eternity. After all, they sinned against an eternal God, so the "only" response God can have is eternal punishment!!?! HELLO, how about eternal forgiveness? How about corrective punishment that only lasts as long as necessary? Wouldn't that be a just response? No, its much better to burn them all for eternity, so that sin will be a permanent fixture in hell!
Quote from: jabcat on June 17, 2009, 12:59:57 AM
After all, is it loving to the saint to grant the unrepentant sinner the same eternal state?
This statement is VERY telling. We can see where Mr. Wayne Tucker's heart really is.
First of all, we are all sinners, even the saints! Second of all, will God not be able to turn the unrepentant sinner to repentance? Third, would the saints be "offended" if other "non-saints" got in to heaven? Apparently Mr Tucker would be.
I guess "love" is only exclusive. Some people get to enjoy God's love. But if others receive it, it lessens the love that God showed to the so-called "saints". You would think a saint would have more understanding and forgiveness, no? This guy needs to read and understand the parable of the prodigal son or the parable of the workers in the vineyard.
Here's something that speaks volumes, I've discovered that words posted on a fundamentalist christian site don't wear phony masks of empathy, not to mention they show the state of their truly cold blackened hearts
but here are the points, that stand out like a neon light on a desert highway, if this isn't depravity I don't know what is
#158 Is endless misery "good tidings of great joy which shall be to all people? (A)" Yes, for all people who are saved! Would you want heaven to be filled with those who are not washed from their sins? That would make God a sinner.
#162 Do you hope that endless misery is true? (A) Yes, absolutely, the hotter hell is, the better it gets!
#164 If endless misery be not a thing hoped for, can it be a part of the Christian faith? (A) Contradiction in terms: those that have faith in Jesus Christ are Christians and are not damned, but have eternal life (John 3:16 and numerous others). There are some on this earth right this second that desire hell. Why are there satan worshippers?
Not to mention the person lacks the minimal basic internet skills in etiquette and courtesy, and comes across as totally pompous and arrogant (like many people on CARM), when making his POV
Here it is debunked
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
#158 Earth is filled with sinners too. God owns earth. God is everywhere. Also on earth. By his defenition God is a sinner right now.
#162 KJV Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
#164 I'm in the right group so who cares what happens to others.
- YLT James 2:8 .... 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,' ....