The biggest stumbling block for me (Matthew 25:46)

[legoman]

Hi all,

I was pretty much on board with UR as soon as I learnt that aion/aionios was not referring to eternity.  This was about a year ago.  However it took me a few months to resolve some of the major inconsitencies that I saw.  These perceived inconsistencies still caused doubts for me about UR.  I studied and studied until I could resolve them for myself.

Probably the biggest stumbling block was this verse:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios].

The word describing the life and the punishment is the same greek word aionios.  Detractors of UR always point out this verse.  If the duration of the punishment is limited, then the duration of the life is also limited.

Even Matt Slick of CARM twists this into a straw man argument:

      'Nevertheless, another translation according to universalist presuppositions might be:
        "And these will go away into non-eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."'


Here is the solution to this tricky problem.  Yes the word aionios must mean the same thing in both instances (and everywhere else).

Does aionios mean "non-eternal" and/or "eternal" as Matt Slick claims we would say?  NO.

Here is what aionios means: pertaining to the aions.  Or in english, pertaining to the ages, or to simplify with one word: eonian.

Lets read what Matt 25:46 really says:
And these will go away into eonian punishment, but the righteous into eonian life.

So the wicked will receive punishment for the eons, and the righteous will receive life for the eons.  But what happens after the eons end?  The life must end right?  This totally refutes UR right?  WRONG my friend  :Sparkletooth:

The truth is Matt 25:46 doesn't say anything about what will happen after the eons end.  For that we have to turn to other verses:

1 Cor 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

We will eventually be immortal because death will have been destroyed.  That is why we will have eternal (and I don't mean aionios) life.  The life will keep on going forever.

So that covers the "life" side of Matt 25:46, but what about the "punishment" side, does that keep going after the eons end?  Well all the verses that ever describe punishment, hell, fire, judgement, etc. always use the phrase "aionios" or "aions of aions".  There is no equivalent verse that says the punishment is "immortal" or "without end".  The punishment will only keep going for the eons of the eons, until the eons are done.  So we have ample proof that the punishment will stop once the eons are done (the eons will end as stated in Heb 9:26 and elsewhere).

Hope this has been helpful to someone as I struggled with this for a few months in my quest to understand UR and the truth. 

Legoman

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi legoman,


Matt uses the argument "some" universalists take, but in general you are correct that it is a strawman argument because he does not address a translation such as the Rotherham which depicts both the punishment and life as "age-bearing"


There is though a simple solution to the differences in translations.  Sometimes I think the universalists will be accused of using a less than recognized Translation simply because it fits our perspective.

The problem there is that few if any translations are actually bad, nor are they put together by uneducated scholars.  So any assertion that seeks to discredit a translation entirely will eventually get to a point where they have to impune the character of a person in order to appear correct.

The solution is that both renderings of the verse can be correct in the proper context of the language.

Literally it is age bearing, figuratively we do not percieve the "end" of the age, so it may seem to go on forever, in either case.   Even when we find something that gives us Joy, we do not perceive that it will end, even if it does.  That perception of neverending is even greater when we experience something bad.

Some may object and say that I would be suggesting that we do not have eternal life either, but I am not suggesting that, I am saying that verse is not intended or even necessary to tell us of our eternal fate.

Since revelation talks of a NEW heaven and NEW earth, it is consistant with age-bearing that our righteous life is age-bearing since the new heaven and earth will start a new age.

Immortality is the word that describes our eternal destiny.

1C 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[legoman]

Yep we are in agreement Paul (I think).

When I first learnt of UR I read some articles that suggested the first aionios (in matt 25:46) means "finite duration" while the second aionios meant "eternal".  This is the incorrect arguement that Matt Slick presents.

This didn't make sense to me too - they are both the word "aionios" so they must mean the same thing.

Thus my post above - they do mean the same thing: "pertaining to the ages" or "eonian" or "age-bearing" as you pointed out.

You are correct, when the ages end, those who had eonian life will not perceive anything differently (with respect to their life), they will just continue on living.  And those who were punished will also keep on living because they will have been reconciled by that point.  All will live on in God's kingdom.

It saddens me because someone reading Matt Slick's rebuttal might reject UR because he has shown the UR arguement to be illogical and inconsistent.  Unfortunately its a classic straw man argument. 

Legoman

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yeah, I understand,  I was confronted by other ridiculous  arguments this weekend and I am not saddended that they embrace an opposite view of mine I really only see their fear.

It is fear that causes this.  This weekend I was confronted by a person who made a list of 3 options of speculation and demanded that one of them must be true and told me which one he chose to pick.

Of course the fallacy is that of the options he speculated on, UR could not be true since one of his invented arguments had to be right.

I always end a debate at that point because there is no point of view that can be explained that the person will even consider.  But, I end it because it is God who must bring his children to that knowledge.

I pray that that persons fear be overcome, not so he will agree with me, but so he will experience freedom.

[Pierac]

Yeah, I understand,  I was confronted by other ridiculous  arguments this weekend and I am not saddended that they embrace an opposite view of mine I really only see their fear.

It is fear that causes this.  This weekend I was confronted by a person who made a list of 3 options of speculation and demanded that one of them must be true and told me which one he chose to pick.

Of course the fallacy is that of the options he speculated on, UR could not be true since one of his invented arguments had to be right.

I always end a debate at that point because there is no point of view that can be explained that the person will even consider.  But, I end it because it is God who must bring his children to that knowledge.

I pray that that persons fear be overcome, not so he will agree with me, but so he will experience freedom.

Just show them...
Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Then tell them to look it up in the Greek. They have a hard time explaining this one.    

[Pierac]

Here's a good 'short' article from the main site for any newbies reading...

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/aionole.htm


:thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yeah, I understand,  I was confronted by other ridiculous  arguments this weekend and I am not saddended that they embrace an opposite view of mine I really only see their fear.

It is fear that causes this.  This weekend I was confronted by a person who made a list of 3 options of speculation and demanded that one of them must be true and told me which one he chose to pick.

Of course the fallacy is that of the options he speculated on, UR could not be true since one of his invented arguments had to be right.

I always end a debate at that point because there is no point of view that can be explained that the person will even consider.  But, I end it because it is God who must bring his children to that knowledge.

I pray that that persons fear be overcome, not so he will agree with me, but so he will experience freedom.

Just show them...
Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Then tell them to look it up in the Greek. They have a hard time explaining this one.    

Well, it is not hard to them when they invent their own criteria.  One of the twists is that this "appointment" is simply an acknowledgement of "as many as" who had chosen to believe.

This really is one of the people I encountered this weekend.  He invented a list of speculative possibilities concerning the subject of Enoch and Elijah, picked one of his own possibilities and maintained that if I picked anything other than what he picked I could not possibly be interpreting scripture correctly.   

All a person can do is make a summary and leave it in Gods hands.

[Pierac]

Yeah, I understand,  I was confronted by other ridiculous  arguments this weekend and I am not saddended that they embrace an opposite view of mine I really only see their fear.

It is fear that causes this.  This weekend I was confronted by a person who made a list of 3 options of speculation and demanded that one of them must be true and told me which one he chose to pick.

Of course the fallacy is that of the options he speculated on, UR could not be true since one of his invented arguments had to be right.

I always end a debate at that point because there is no point of view that can be explained that the person will even consider.  But, I end it because it is God who must bring his children to that knowledge.

I pray that that persons fear be overcome, not so he will agree with me, but so he will experience freedom.

Just show them...
Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Then tell them to look it up in the Greek. They have a hard time explaining this one.    

Well, it is not hard to them when they invent their own criteria.  One of the twists is that this "appointment" is simply an acknowledgement of "as many as" who had chosen to believe.

This really is one of the people I encountered this weekend.  He invented a list of speculative possibilities concerning the subject of Enoch and Elijah, picked one of his own possibilities and maintained that if I picked anything other than what he picked I could not possibly be interpreting scripture correctly.   

All a person can do is make a summary and leave it in Gods hands. 

Really? Like what? I happen to have quite a bit of information on these two!   :laughing7:

Here's some of it...

"And Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

This verse has of course been taken to mean that Elijah went to heaven and then so will we when we die. The Jewish word that is translated as heaven literally means, "sky." I will explain this verse by saying that what happened to Elijah was not that he was taken up to heaven where God dwells, but that he was translated to another location on earth. This explanation is very easy to prove. Read 1 Kings 18:7-16 where Elijah is speaking to Obadiah, King Ahab's vizier. We see in verse 8 that Elijah asks Obadiah to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here. Obadiah replies that there is no nation or kingdom that Ahab has not searched for Elijah in, and that they could not find him. In verse12 Obadiah says to Elijah that he is afraid to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here because when he leaves, the Spirit of the LORD will carry him off somewhere that he does not know, and Ahab will have him killed.

"After I leave you, the Spirit of the LORD will carry you to some place I do not know, and when I go to inform Ahab and he does not find you, he will have me killed."

Being translated is not too common in the Bible but it does happen. Philip was translated in Acts 8:39:

"When they came out of the water, The Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch saw him no more."

Another excellent verse to show that Elijah is still on earth after the event on the chariot of fire is that he writes a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:10-13 telling him that the LORD will strike his people with a great plague. Verse 12 is worth quoting:

"He (Jehoram) received a letter from the prophet Elijah with this message."

The crucial point in these verses is that Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram who was the son of King Jehoshaphat. Elijah was transported during the reign of King Jehoshaphat. Jehoram came after Jehoshaphat, and it was Jehoram that received a letter from Elijah. The obvious conclusion is that Elijah is still alive here on earth. If Elijah did go to heaven, then how could we explain Jesus' statement in John 3:13: "No one has gone up to heaven."

Is Jesus wrong? Or is it that man's interpretation of this verse is wrong?  :2c:

Paul

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yeah, I know that Enoch and Elijah did die.  I certainly know about the letter Elijah wrote
and that in Hebrews Enoch is mentioned in a passage describing those who died.

This reply was given after pointing that out. 

Ok, there are two people who DID NOT die. Enoch and Elijah.


Now, if Elijah just went up in the sky (Shmym)then he's either still floating around somewhere or he was picked up and dropped *splat* on the earth again.
However, we find Elijah ministering to Jesus:

Matthew 17:1-13
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.

2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
"

So either -
1) Elijah died from a rather nasty fall
2) Elijah lived in the sky/space until he appeared to Jesus
3) Elijah went to heaven but didn't enter the throne room of the Father yet.


(I opt for door number 3)

One thing I will note is that this person tried to instruct me on context by reading ahead and after the verses your using to get the proper context.  Not to go into context, but much of this persons replied violated his own instruction.

Just an example of typically who I run into on the internet.

[Pierac]

Yeah, I know that Enoch and Elijah did die.  I certainly know about the letter Elijah wrote
and that in Hebrews Enoch is mentioned in a passage describing those who died.

This reply was given after pointing that out. 

Ok, there are two people who DID NOT die. Enoch and Elijah.


Now, if Elijah just went up in the sky (Shmym)then he's either still floating around somewhere or he was picked up and dropped *splat* on the earth again.
However, we find Elijah ministering to Jesus:

Matthew 17:1-13
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.

2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
"

So either -
1) Elijah died from a rather nasty fall
2) Elijah lived in the sky/space until he appeared to Jesus
3) Elijah went to heaven but didn't enter the throne room of the Father yet.


(I opt for door number 3)

One thing I will note is that this person tried to instruct me on context by reading ahead and after the verses your using to get the proper context.  Not to go into context, but much of this persons replied violated his own instruction.

Just an example of typically who I run into on the internet.

Indeed, they stick their fingers in their ears and sing La La La until it's their time to speak!   :laughing7:

Paul