Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal [aionios] God, so that all nations might believe and obey him
Rev 15:7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever [aions of aions].
After learning that aion/aionios doesn't refer to eternal/eternity the above verses and others like it caused me problems.
If aion/aionios only means a finite duration of time, then the above verses would have to mean that God eventually dies or ceases to exist, right? This totally refutes UR, right? WRONG my friend :Sparkletooth:
Verses like Roman 16:26 where God is described as "aionios" simply mean that God is "pertaining to the ages", or is "eonian". God is a pesonal God and is very involved with the eons - he created the eons, he set the eons in motion, he framed the eons, he has a plan for the eons: therefore he is the God of the eons and can be called the eonian God. This in no way restricts the duration of God's existence, anymore than a statment saying God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, restricts God. If God is the God of Abraham and Jacob, is He also not still the God of you and me?
So a statement saying God is eonian is simply saying God is relevant to the eons.
What about Rev 15:7 - it says God lives for the eons of the eons. Doesn't that mean God will not live after the eons end? WRONG AGAIN my friend :Sparkletooth:
Saying God lives for the eons of the eons, implies no restriction about what happens after the eons end. Like Matthew 25:46, for the answer of what happens after the eons end we have to look at other scripture. All that Rev 15:7 is saying is that God is alive right now, during all the eons.
But is God truly eternal? YES:
1 Tim 6:15 ...God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
Psalm 102:27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
God will go on forever because He is immortal and His years will never end.
And while we are on the topic what about God's Kingdom (heaven)?:
Luke 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever [greek: for the ages]; his kingdom will never end."
Notice that Christ's reign is only for the ages and will eventually end (this confirms 1 Cor 15:25), but the Kingdom has no end and is truly eternal.
Hope this has been helpful for those new to UR.
Cheers,
Legoman
And it may only be an English pecularity that wouldn't change the presentation that you made, Legoman, but the translation that you quoted actually seems to say that one of the living creatures, who liveth for ever and ever, or that the seven angels live for ever and ever, or in both cases "ages of ages" in the Greek. Perhaps it's clearer in the Greek 'cause I see that a few other translations give that ambiguity. You could even read it that the seven golden bowls filled with the wrath that lives for the eons of eons, or that the seven golden bowls live for the eons of eons. Just going by the English on Revelation 15:7 that you presented.
Aions of Aions does appear to be the duration given to any creature, other than God, reigning or being reigned over by either others or punishment. In the book of Revelation, a couple of the "God" references are specifically talking about Christ Jesus, even in the Concordant Literal, which is an important point to bring up for Trinitarians that just about choke to death on the Concordant's handling of Revelation 3:14.
The problem has been that everything we've considered foundational -- to almost every doctrine -- has been built upon really horrible translations and then we [often] can't endure good translations that differ on our proof texts, when the strong likelihood is that if the doctrine will stand the scrutiny, then it may very well be proven by other texts previously obscured by bad translations rather than having to defend classic readings tooth and nail. So, the likelihood that "ages of ages" in the book of Revelation simply talking about His reign leading up to 1Corinthians 15:28 is very high.
Much of our defense of UR gives too much to the fundamentalist as though certain passages were saying what the fundamentalist insists that it was saying. Eternal Life in the evangelical way of looking at it can never ever be based upon aion or aionios, but must be looked at through the word akataluton in Hebrews 7 'cause we're joint-heirs of His life, but there is no corresponding indestructibility to the punishments that the wicked endure. And it must be looked upon based upon the nature of God's singular intent that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance. That's why for years the name of my website was Universal Repentance, based upon a series of writings of the same title, rather than other terms for the Global and Extradimensional conquest on the part of the Gospel.
Ezekiel says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked should repent and live. Reading that verse more carefully a few times, it seems to speak of post death repentance although as a secondary meaning when the primary meaning is obviously the warning of Israel not to die in their sin. Because the verse is saying that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, as though an accusation were being addressed that God was gleeful 'cause so and so had died.
Some take the eroneous stand that William Barclay took that because of these two passages, (i.e. Romans and Revelation cited in opening post,) and maybe one or two more, that therefore aionios sometimes means eternal and sometimes means finite time depending on the context. But no word in any language means one thing and it's exact opposite depending upon it's context. Aioios simply means "an age pertaining to_________(fill in the blank)" and that's where your context comes in. But the context doesn't ever determine aionios to mean "eternal." In the book of Revelation quote, contextually it can even be used to define the punishments as eons of eons because that's how much time God is willing to devote to them as denoting Him as living to the eons of eons (i.e. as a punisher). God works through the ages to accomplish the salvation of all, rather than eternally, according to Romans 16.
Not sure if someone more well versed in Greek will tear me apart on this point. If they can, I prefer it to saying this for 75 more years, but eons of eons or ages of ages seems to be saying to me, not just a duration of the several different ages that have made up the creation being revisited or repeated or being punished or given life in proportion to, but it seems to be conveying to me the idea of the eons within the eons, which for me pulls out their extradimensionality in content/substance, extent, and purpose. Because duration by itself doesn't really reach the deepest part of either the blessed or the condemned, but if it's punishment or reigning within the eons of the eons, which more closely reaches my interpretation of St. Paul, then all that can be addressed by those in the superior position to the punished will finally be realized.
Hi Martin,
You raise some good points. I hadn't even considered the other possible readings of Rev 15:7. I'm sure there are other verses that talk about God being forever and ever, my original argument was focused on these types of verses.
Like you say, part of the problem is our foundation is completely wrong. A new believer of UR has to unlearn years and years of teachings before UR starts to make sense. I would guess its easier for an athiest to believe in UR than a Christian to convert to UR.
Look at the word "eternal". This is to do with infinite time or timelessness. When one learns that the real word is eonian (aionios, pertaining to the ages, etc), and not "eternal", its easy to carry the baggage of the old learning and assume that eonian is still to do with a time period. In a way eonian is refering to time periods, but it is not restrictive or specific in the way that "eternal" is. Yet that is what we assume. Hm, did that make sense?
I think of it this way: If there was a verse that said "God is red", would the following conclusions make sense?
- God is not eternal because God is red
OR
- red must be eternal
Now neither of those 2 statements follow logically from the simple statement "God is red".
Yet Christains make those same exact illogical arguments when the statement is "God is aionios". They say either:
- aionios must mean eternal
OR
- God is not eternal
Neither which is logically sound, and both which "refute" UR. And its only because of their "indoctrination" and foundation.
Its just so difficult to unlearn what you thought was the truth. And then of course many people have a vested interest in keeping the old "truth"...
Legoman
Part of the problem is that in the process of unlearning, there's a lot of stuff to wrap your head around. I suspect it would be best when introducing most people to the idea of UR; to do it gradually, one piece at a time. The thing that seems like it'd be most effective is to start them questioning one or two of the central presuppositions of ET/ES and then go from there.
Randy Klassen's book: What Does the Bible Really Say About Hell? might be a good place to start getting people's feet wet. Then move on from there as you get the green light from the Spirit, gradually introducing them to more topics, like word studies on the meanings of key words, like aion and the words for "destruction" and "punishment."
If you can get people to realize that their very concept of "hell" is not biblical, then a lot of times it's easier to start introducing the other stuff, as most of what Christians believe eschatologically is based heavily on their unscriptural view of "hell".
On Sunday, our pastor made a couple comments at the beginning of his sermon (not specifically aimed at UR) about those out there who are trying to change the gospel to make it more 'palatable'. Well, which "gospel" is that? I shook my head internally as I realized that he has no clue that the mainstream "gospel" he's referring to and attempting to defend has already been changed to something that isn't even the gospel. He also commented that some are trying to do away with "eternal hell." Well again, which "hell" is that? Gehenna "hell", "Hades hell", or Tartarus/Tartaroo "hell"? Sooo much assumption due to so many years of biased teaching/ indoctrination and shoddy/ biased transliteration.
Ironically, the topic of the sermon series he's on is about how we need to have real joy as believers.
It's not so much that Christians have anything to unlearn. I haven't found very many Christians that have transitioned into UR that have had to rebuild from scratch, although that's a paranoia that can run deep for many Christians coming into the reality of UR. It's simply as I said with knowing things in your knower and basing things off of the wrong verses 'cause of bad translations. When things are properly translated, then most of the doctrines hold up, but not on the previously held proof texts. There's still over 150 verses that talk about the tenth in virtually any translation, since that's a favorite one of UR folks to pick on, but you've got to restudy "ten" in the Scriptures rather than singling out the word "tithe" and being more of a literalist on it than you ever intend to be on any other doctrine. If the tenth has been done away with, then Christ was seated in vain 'cause UR, the validation of every other Spiritual gift and of the New Birth and a billion other precepts of the Gospel can be asserted and maintained with Him simply having ascended into heaven, but His seating implies Kingship in every area of life that He extends to every believer provided they use the right access codes that are in place to keep the devil out of the laws of the Spirit of Life. There's protections built into the New Covenant that have to remain in place until Satan goes into the Lake of Fire. Otherwise, he'd retake the kingdoms of the world as he did in the Garden of Eden and all men would remain blinded until 1Corinthians 15:28. As things are right now, the Kingdoms of the world are ours and the talents in the parable of Christ corresponds to the nations that we exercise lordship over under the guidance of the Lord of lords.
Quote from: martincisneros on January 13, 2009, 12:49:01 AM
It's not so much that Christians have anything to unlearn. I haven't found very many Christians that have transitioned into UR that have had to rebuild from scratch, although that's a paranoia that can run deep for many Christians coming into the reality of UR. It's simply as I said with knowing things in your knower and basing things off of the wrong verses 'cause of bad translations. When things are properly translated, then most of the doctrines hold up, but not on the previously held proof texts. There's still over 150 verses that talk about the tenth in virtually any translation, since that's a favorite one of UR folks to pick on, but you've got to restudy "ten" in the Scriptures rather than singling out the word "tithe" and being more of a literalist on it than you ever intend to be on any other doctrine. If the tenth has been done away with, then Christ was seated in vain 'cause UR, the validation of every other Spiritual gift and of the New Birth and a billion other precepts of the Gospel can be asserted and maintained with Him simply having ascended into heaven, but His seating implies Kingship in every area of life that He extends to every believer provided they use the right access codes that are in place to keep the devil out of the laws of the Spirit of Life. There's protections built into the New Covenant that have to remain in place until Satan goes into the Lake of Fire. Otherwise, he'd retake the kingdoms of the world as he did in the Garden of Eden and all men would remain blinded until 1Corinthians 15:28. As things are right now, the Kingdoms of the world are ours and the talents in the parable of Christ corresponds to the nations that we exercise lordship over under the guidance of the Lord of lords.
I have to partly disagree with you here. We
do have to unlearn certain things, like unscriptural views of "hell". Now, I agree that a lot of the doctrines have somehow ended up being essentially correct, but for the wrong reasons as you've pointed out; but I've personally had to do a fair amount of "unlearning." I haven't had to rebuild from scratch, but I've felt that I at least needed to re-examine everything, if not start over. I mean, if such a basic and core thing as salvation is grossly misunderstood, what else have we been taught in error?
That has been my experience Doc, I've let go of 90% of all that I thought was sound doctrine . . .once you start down that slippery slope of freedom, all of the support beams holding up your theories begin to lose their footing . . .if the foundation is off, the house is off. Ever see a house where only one wall was a foot shorter but the house was still sound?
If you have and if it is, it's because a crafty carpenter came along and compensated lumber for rock. Over time, it still won't stand the storms of life. For me, the walk of a humble man is one that holds on to the things of this world loosely. No matter how many times God is repeated in my fundamental doctrine . .it's still based on what I know "down" here.
Ever wonder just how many people are going to stand before the throne when the last knee has finally bowed and confessed . .and they'll say "Yup, it's exactly like I knew it would be!"
This has been rolling around in me for a bit lately . . .(you fill in the blank once you've read the sentence). . .it takes a pretty ______ person who can stand toe to toe with another and say "you are wrong, I am right" when pertaining to the kingdom of God.
Are we so wise that we are able to declare right and wrong in another? The looser I hang on to what I think to be right, easier it'll be to let go when God tells me I'm not.
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 01:56:14 AM
That has been my experience Doc, I've let go of 90% of all that I thought was sound doctrine . . .once you start down that slippery slope of freedom, all of the support beams holding up your theories begin to lose their footing . . .if the foundation is off, the house is off. Ever see a house where only one wall was a foot shorter but the house was still sound?
If you have and if it is, it's because a crafty carpenter came along and compensated lumber for rock. Over time, it still won't stand the storms of life. For me, the walk of a humble man is one that holds on to the things of this world loosely. No matter how many times God is repeated in my fundamental doctrine . .it's still based on what I know "down" here.
Ever wonder just how many people are going to stand before the throne when the last knee has finally bowed and confessed . .and they'll say "Yup, it's exactly like I knew it would be!"
This has been rolling around in me for a bit lately . . .(you fill in the blank once you've read the sentence). . .it takes a pretty ______ person who can stand toe to toe with another and say "you are wrong, I am right" when pertaining to the kingdom of God.
Are we so wise that we are able to declare right and wrong in another? The looser I hang on to what I think to be right, easier it'll be to let go when God tells me I'm not.
I have an older friend who is fond of saying (tongue-in-cheek) that he thinks the 30 minutes of silence in heaven is going to be for everyone to get their theology sorted out. :laughing7:
Yeah . .heh, I heard that one to. Got into a bit of an argument on this forum connecting that one (half hour of silence) with Josephus writing about 70 A.D.
Quote from: Doc on January 14, 2009, 01:38:08 AM
Quote from: martincisneros on January 13, 2009, 12:49:01 AM
It's not so much that Christians have anything to unlearn. I haven't found very many Christians that have transitioned into UR that have had to rebuild from scratch, although that's a paranoia that can run deep for many Christians coming into the reality of UR. It's simply as I said with knowing things in your knower and basing things off of the wrong verses 'cause of bad translations. When things are properly translated, then most of the doctrines hold up, but not on the previously held proof texts. There's still over 150 verses that talk about the tenth in virtually any translation, since that's a favorite one of UR folks to pick on, but you've got to restudy "ten" in the Scriptures rather than singling out the word "tithe" and being more of a literalist on it than you ever intend to be on any other doctrine. If the tenth has been done away with, then Christ was seated in vain 'cause UR, the validation of every other Spiritual gift and of the New Birth and a billion other precepts of the Gospel can be asserted and maintained with Him simply having ascended into heaven, but His seating implies Kingship in every area of life that He extends to every believer provided they use the right access codes that are in place to keep the devil out of the laws of the Spirit of Life. There's protections built into the New Covenant that have to remain in place until Satan goes into the Lake of Fire. Otherwise, he'd retake the kingdoms of the world as he did in the Garden of Eden and all men would remain blinded until 1Corinthians 15:28. As things are right now, the Kingdoms of the world are ours and the talents in the parable of Christ corresponds to the nations that we exercise lordship over under the guidance of the Lord of lords.
I have to partly disagree with you here. We do have to unlearn certain things, like unscriptural views of "hell". Now, I agree that a lot of the doctrines have somehow ended up being essentially correct, but for the wrong reasons as you've pointed out; but I've personally had to do a fair amount of "unlearning." I haven't had to rebuild from scratch, but I've felt that I at least needed to re-examine everything, if not start over. I mean, if such a basic and core thing as salvation is grossly misunderstood, what else have we been taught in error?
For me there was definitely a lot of unlearning.
It took me forever (ok a few months) to realize that we don't go to heaven immediately upon death. This threw off my whole concept of when believers and unbelievers would be judged/resurrected etc.
Also it seems in most cases of people learning about UR, there are some basic questions that come up immediately. I know I even asked them myself:
1. If God is going to save everyone, what was the point of sending Jesus?
2. If God is going to save everyone, why don't I just go around and sin as much as I want?
Honestly it took me much thinking and soul searching for several weeks until I had reasonable answers for these questions.
And part of it was because of previous indoctrination and teaching. It is so ingrained in us that God sent Jesus so we wouldn't go to hell, and that we don't sin so we don't go to hell. Take away hell, and now it (incorrectly) seems there is no reason for Jesus and no reason to not sin. But of course there is a reason :Sparkletooth: (I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out those reasons)
Legoman
Have you guys and gals heard this one: the thief on the cross went to paradise immediately on the same day he died - or did he?
Here is the verse:
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
In fact there are no commas at all in the original text, so the comma is just a best guess by the translators. This blew me away when I learned it.
Legoman
Quote from: legoman on January 15, 2009, 06:01:23 PM
Have you guys and gals heard this one: the thief on the cross went to paradise immediately on the same day he died - or did he?
Here is the verse:
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
In fact there are no commas at all in the original text, so the comma is just a best guess by the translators. This blew me away when I learned it.
Legoman
Yeah, best guess probably isn't "quite" true since within the doctrine of going immediately to heaven or hell when we die, it would be a proper placement. You seem to find translations that gear more towards UR the comma is in a different spot.
Yes true. "best guess" wasn't the right term perhaps. But it does appear the comma was placed to impose a particular understanding of a doctrine.
This example shows how tough it is to translate correctly. If moving a comma by one word completely changes a doctrine, imagine the damage done by changing a whole word or series of words. And of course we don't need to imagine because we can see what has been done with aion/aionios and hades/sheol/gehenna.
Cheers,
Legoman
wow , i am being wowed today lol
thanks so much for sharing this Legoman all of you :thumbsup:,
very interesting indeed
lots to consider :HeartThrob:
the aionos times in the verse before had an end!
God is eternal, which means also eternal back in the past, the aionos life has a beginning, God not - this is something that came in my mind.
the ages of the ages have a beginning, "they will reign for the ages of the ages", they don't reign yet, and again - God has no beginning, the ages of the ages will have one.
Quote from: rosered on January 15, 2009, 09:13:45 PM
wow , i am being wowed today lol
thanks so much for sharing this Legoman all of you :thumbsup:,
very interesting indeed
lots to consider :HeartThrob:
Your welcome rosered! :Sparkletooth:
I can't claim credit for finding it, its just something I read on another site. And it wowed me too when I first saw it. There's so much to be learned, so many layers to go through.
Enjoy,
Legoman
Hi sis , called the 3rd heaven right same as paradise ?
The biggest stumbling block for me is
THE'' greek tenses'''' , it is more frustrating than anything :sigh:
I am a" present tense " thinker because ,
I take it as though it is the Spirit speaking directly to me personally ,
like having these invisible to the "naked eye" ears to Hear
some how :laughing7:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 16, 2009, 07:22:07 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 16, 2009, 01:07:19 PM
Hi sis , called the 3rd heaven right same as paradise ?
The biggest stumbling block for me is
THE" greek tenses"" , it is more frustrating than anything :sigh:
I am a" present tense " thinker because ,
I take it as though it is the Spirit speaking directly to me personally ,
like having these invisible to the "naked eye" ears to Hear
some how :laughing7:
:HeartThrob:
Well yeah but Jesus saying "To day" is by the Holy Spirit as shown by Paul in relation to "a certain day" not a 24 hour thing but naming that which He remains the same in "Yesterday, To day, and For ever" the declaration on the cross pertained to that. Despite where the comma is placed Paul showed being caught up to "third heaven" = paradise did not require the death of the physical body. So "To day" in the physical sense of 24 hour time shouldnt even be a consideration. Paul said "In the body or out of the body he could not tell" but the physical death of a mans body had nothing to do with being caught up to paradise.
I mean you can do saumersaults around the comma but honestly... :grin: Im not understanding why do that rather then recconcile the fact someone was (caught up) in the "To day" Paul says the Holy Spirit calls "To day".
I'd think it would simplify the thing :grin:
Could it be that Jesus possibly meant that at that moment he was given the truth?
Hi Kim and Paul
Yes , it seems the instant this word ''Today''
is quickened in your mortal body by the Holy Spirit ,
the coma seems such trivial little thing hee hee :laughing7:
like swating at gnats and swallowing camels :thumbsup:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 16, 2009, 07:30:06 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 16, 2009, 07:22:07 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 16, 2009, 01:07:19 PM
Hi sis , called the 3rd heaven right same as paradise ?
The biggest stumbling block for me is
THE" greek tenses"" , it is more frustrating than anything :sigh:
I am a" present tense " thinker because ,
I take it as though it is the Spirit speaking directly to me personally ,
like having these invisible to the "naked eye" ears to Hear
some how :laughing7:
:HeartThrob:
Well yeah but Jesus saying "To day" is by the Holy Spirit as shown by Paul in relation to "a certain day" not a 24 hour thing but naming that which He remains the same in "Yesterday, To day, and For ever" the declaration on the cross pertained to that. Despite where the comma is placed Paul showed being caught up to "third heaven" = paradise did not require the death of the physical body. So "To day" in the physical sense of 24 hour time shouldnt even be a consideration. Paul said "In the body or out of the body he could not tell" but the physical death of a mans body had nothing to do with being caught up to paradise.
I mean you can do saumersaults around the comma but honestly... :grin: Im not understanding why do that rather then recconcile the fact someone was (caught up) in the "To day" Paul says the Holy Spirit calls "To day".
I'd think it would simplify the thing :grin:
Could it be that Jesus possibly meant that at that moment he was given the truth?
More Like he was SHOWN who IS TRUTH for mine Paul :icon_flower:
QuoteBut what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.
I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)
I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)
Jesus would say Truly, Truly or Look or Verily (meaning you can trust it)
Therefore, the translators got it right--
Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
QuoteI cant always tell where some folks are coming from.
Hee hee or where they are going
sorta like the wind huh sis?
I am a bit windy myself hee hee ,
especially when we talk on the phone :laughing7:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on January 16, 2009, 08:17:01 PM
QuoteI cant always tell where some folks are coming from.
Hee hee or where they are going
sorta like the wind huh sis?
I am a bit windy myself hee hee ,
especially when we talk on the phone :laughing7:
:HeartThrob:
Love Knows ,No Bills, ................specially Phone ones. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on January 16, 2009, 08:13:43 PM
QuoteBut what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.
I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)
I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)
Jesus would say Truly, Truly or Look or Verily (meaning you can trust it)
Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]
This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true. Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.
Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2009, 01:37:46 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 16, 2009, 08:13:43 PM
QuoteBut what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.
I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)
I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)
Jesus would say Truly, Truly or Look or Verily (meaning you can trust it)
Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]
This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true. Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.
Paul :icon_flower:
The concept of who TO DAY is , be the focal point
TO DAY is Christ, Likened to a DAY who is a THOUSAND yrs, oppossed to a Literal DAY. :icon_flower:
:2c: :icon_flower:
Tman: The concept of who TO DAY is , be the focal point
TO DAY is Christ, Likened to a DAY who is a THOUSAND yrs, oppossed to a Literal DAY.
Man, that's good T. So much said with so few words. I wish I could master that technique!
cp
Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2009, 01:37:46 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 16, 2009, 08:13:43 PM
QuoteBut what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.
I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)
I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)
Jesus would say Truly, Truly or Look or Verily (meaning you can trust it)
Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]
This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true. Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.
I think there is truth no matter where the comma is.
Paradise is an existance not a feeling to me. If he meant that day, or meant he was saying it that day, knowing Jesus is true is paradise to me.
Quote from: Molly on January 16, 2009, 08:13:43 PM
QuoteBut what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.
I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)
I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)
Jesus would say Truly, Truly or Look or Verily (meaning you can trust it)
Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
AMEN Molly!!
If you look at every other instance where Christ says: "I say unto thee..." he never once says "I say unto thee today....". Not once. :winkgrin:
Like Fire says, it's a matter of knowing what "TODAY" means, especially as it pertains to "
Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts".
Heb 3:13 But
exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
What did His disciple say?? TODAY is THE THIRD DAY?? :grin:
Quote from: Taffy on January 17, 2009, 01:48:15 AM
Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2009, 01:37:46 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 16, 2009, 08:13:43 PM
QuoteBut what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.
I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)
I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)
Jesus would say Truly, Truly or Look or Verily (meaning you can trust it)
Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]
This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true. Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.
Paul :icon_flower:
The concept of who TO DAY is , be the focal point
TO DAY is Christ, Likened to a DAY who is a THOUSAND yrs, oppossed to a Literal DAY. :icon_flower:
:2c: :icon_flower:
:thumbsup:
Even before Christ's body came down from the cross His Spirit was with the Father!!
Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2009, 03:28:03 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 17, 2009, 01:48:15 AM
Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2009, 01:37:46 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 16, 2009, 08:13:43 PM
QuoteBut what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.
I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)
I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)
Jesus would say Truly, Truly or Look or Verily (meaning you can trust it)
Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]
This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true. Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.
Paul :icon_flower:
The concept of who TO DAY is , be the focal point
TO DAY is Christ, Likened to a DAY who is a THOUSAND yrs, oppossed to a Literal DAY. :icon_flower:
:2c: :icon_flower:
:thumbsup:
Even before Christ's body came down from the cross His Spirit was with the Father!!
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Ecc 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
--Acts 2
Quote from: Molly on January 17, 2009, 06:51:02 AM
Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
--Acts 2
Indeed and on the third day too. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2009, 06:38:26 AM
Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2009, 03:28:03 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 17, 2009, 01:48:15 AM
Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2009, 01:37:46 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 16, 2009, 08:13:43 PM
QuoteBut what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.
I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)
I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)
Jesus would say Truly, Truly or Look or Verily (meaning you can trust it)
Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]
This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true. Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.
Paul :icon_flower:
The concept of who TO DAY is , be the focal point
TO DAY is Christ, Likened to a DAY who is a THOUSAND yrs, oppossed to a Literal DAY. :icon_flower:
:2c: :icon_flower:
:thumbsup:
Even before Christ's body came down from the cross His Spirit was with the Father!!
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Ecc 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Exactly!!
And is it not
OUR SPIRIT that
THE SPIRIT (of God) bears witness to, telling us that we are the children of God?
And isn't it
THE SPIRIT that is quickened (by Christ who is A QUICKENING SPIRIT), while the flesh PROFITS NOTHING?
And did not Paul turn "such as one" over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so "that
THE SPIRIT may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus"?
If our "spirit" is nothing more than the spirit/breath of God that gives life to the soul/body then why does it need to be "witnessed to", "quickened", and "saved"?
Why are we told that there is a NATURAL body and that there is a SPIRITUAL body AND that if this earthly tabernacle (a natural body) were DISSOLVED that we know that we ~HAVE~ "an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (a spiritual body)?
Sounds like there is
AN INWARD MAN (SPIRIT), as well as
AN OUTWARD MAN (FLESH).
ONE is saved (perhaps "a vessel of mercy" ??) while the other profits NOTHING, returning to the dust from which it came (perhaps "a vessel fitted for destruction" ??)
No wonder Paul tells us: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." :thumbsup:
Hey Chris . . .something kind of jumped up while reading your post. "If" my flesh profits nothing . . . hmm . .how can I word this? For those that believe that it's only during "this" physical life that you can have the opportunity to be saved . .that would then mean flesh profiteth much. It would be flesh that gives my soul the opportunity to be saved.
Incidentally . . .does anyone know where this idea actually derives? Anyone know which Scripture is used to base the idea that only in this life can one be saved . .but once one dies, it's all over???
Nathan; I'm pretty sure it's Hebrews, where "it is appointed to men once to die, and after this, the judgment". But how they get that doctrine out of that verse, I'll never know...
I think so many times, we don't question things not because we haven't come across it in Scripture, but we don't question it because the church seems so confident and adamant that it's already a sealed issue. Cemented in stone. This life is the only opportunity you have to gain entrance into heaven. Which then means that this life in the flesh "does" profit much . . .rather than profit nothing as Scripture states.
I'm learning there are MANY things we've been told God said that God never said. But in order to receive this to be true in us, one either has to leave the church in order to embrace it, or remain in the church embracing it either in secret or openly and be a heretic. Obviously, I fall under the latter . .oh . .speaking of being a heretic . . .
For those of you who were concerned for me in the pastor's meeting I had to attend this past Saturday, thank you for your prayers and it went really great. Other than the fact that my wife and I were an hour late for the meeting due to our alarm not going off . . .ever since one of the twins poured koolade on my alarm clock . . .it hasn't been the same.
Anyway . . . things appear to be blowing over, they are taking a bit of a different approach in our meetings in an attempt to make them more productive . . .we're actually going to have prayer and worship as part of our itinerary now. And . . . the host pastor of our next meeting in February has approached me and asked if I'd be the one to lead the worship . . .. crazy how things work out sometimes.
That is fantastic, Nathan,
God is good!!
Legoman said in his first post:
''Verses like Roman 16:26 where God is described as "aionios" simply mean that God is "pertaining to the ages", or is "eonian". God is a pesonal God and is very involved with the eons - he created the eons, he set the eons in motion, he framed the eons, he has a plan for the eons: therefore he is the God of the eons and can be called the eonian God.''
I'm quite new to UR and come from a JW background (I didn't become a JW but I thought they had it right on quite a lot of stuff like: when you die, you are 'unconcious' until you are resurrected; there is no hell, but rather the wicked or unrepentant are 'snuffed out' of existence for all eternity. I still can't quite believe that 'ALL' could be reconciled or saved, as much as my heart thinks it the most wonderful concept. Anyway, getting back to the subject of this thread, I've been struggling to understand the comparison of 'aionios' in Matt 25:46. The comparison must surely be viewed the same as universalists view the 'all' in Rom 5:19. I understand why God is referred to as 'aionian' for the reasons Legoman cites, but I'm puzzled as to why Jesus uses 'aionios' for the life that I've always assumed was the 'eternal' life you receive when you are resurrected. The 'life' that Jesus has come to give us,is not like the life we experience now, which is temporal or 'aionios' which I read time and again means 'has a beginning and an end'. The 'life' that Jesus wants to give us is superior (incorruptible) so I'm very confused with this verse and the other verses that talk of 'aionios' life. I could understand if the verses spoke of aionios life which lead on to 'aidios' life. I've read many articles relating to Matt 25:46 and I can't grasp the point they are making. If 'aionios' must always mean a set period of time that had a beginning and will have an end, then I just don't understand why this word is used time and again when referring to the life which is surely the life one receives when they are resurrected? Paul makes clear that you are raised immortal etc. Where is my thinking tripping me up? :sigh:
Quote from: Cat on February 13, 2009, 12:54:41 AM
Legoman said in his first post:
"Verses like Roman 16:26 where God is described as "aionios" simply mean that God is "pertaining to the ages", or is "eonian". God is a pesonal God and is very involved with the eons - he created the eons, he set the eons in motion, he framed the eons, he has a plan for the eons: therefore he is the God of the eons and can be called the eonian God."
I'm quite new to UR and come from a JW background (I didn't become a JW but I thought they had it right on quite a lot of stuff like: when you die, you are 'unconcious' until you are resurrected; there is no hell, but rather the wicked or unrepentant are 'snuffed out' of existence for all eternity. I still can't quite believe that 'ALL' could be reconciled or saved, as much as my heart thinks it the most wonderful concept. Anyway, getting back to the subject of this thread, I've been struggling to understand the comparison of 'aionios' in Matt 25:46. The comparison must surely be viewed the same as universalists view the 'all' in Rom 5:19. I understand why God is referred to as 'aionian' for the reasons Legoman cites, but I'm puzzled as to why Jesus uses 'aionios' for the life that I've always assumed was the 'eternal' life you receive when you are resurrected. The 'life' that Jesus has come to give us,is not like the life we experience now, which is temporal or 'aionios' which I read time and again means 'has a beginning and an end'. The 'life' that Jesus wants to give us is superior (incorruptible) so I'm very confused with this verse and the other verses that talk of 'aionios' life. I could understand if the verses spoke of aionios life which lead on to 'aidios' life. I've read many articles relating to Matt 25:46 and I can't grasp the point they are making. If 'aionios' must always mean a set period of time that had a beginning and will have an end, then I just don't understand why this word is used time and again when referring to the life which is surely the life one receives when they are resurrected? Paul makes clear that you are raised immortal etc. Where is my thinking tripping me up? :sigh:
Cat, it might help some for you to view aionios as more of a quality, rather than so much as a quantity. Aionios as I see it, is more along the lines of a quality
pertaining to a quantity. Aion is more properly a set period of time, although it does seem to carry connotations of not really being able to "see" the end of it, even though we know there is an end to it. Aionios/ aionion is more descriptive of the
quality of life as it pertains to the aion(s). Aionios and the words for immortal/ incorruptible are not synonyms. We know that aionios life ends at some point even though the incorruptible/ immortal life (when God is all in all) doesn't end. Does that help?
QuoteJesus finished his parable of the sheep and the goats with the words: They will go away to aeonian punishment, but the righteous to aeonian life (Mat 25: 46). The primary meaning of the Greek word kolasis ( kolasiV), here translated punishment, is correction. Was Jesus speaking of everlasting correction? What sort of correction could go on for ever and ever? Is God unable to complete his work? Aeonian punishment or correction takes place in the higher, unseen spiritual realm, beyond the time and space of our material world. Gods corrective and restorative purposes for his whole creation will be perfectly achieved.
I see it like this:
Those who lived good lives directly move on to the good part.
The wicked have a bad period ahead but after correction join the other group.
Then there is the conclusion of the aions. No more aions/time.
Another thing is that this is judgement of works. Read the few verses before this one.
So it isn't even about faith in Jesus. And that faith is teh only way into heaven.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 13, 2009, 01:58:45 AM
QuoteJesus finished his parable of the sheep and the goats with the words: They will go away to aeonian punishment, but the righteous to aeonian life (Mat 25: 46). The primary meaning of the Greek word kolasis ( kolasiV), here translated punishment, is correction. Was Jesus speaking of everlasting correction? What sort of correction could go on for ever and ever? Is God unable to complete his work? Aeonian punishment or correction takes place in the higher, unseen spiritual realm, beyond the time and space of our material world. Gods corrective and restorative purposes for his whole creation will be perfectly achieved.
I see it like this:
Those who lived good lives directly move on to the good part.
The wicked have a bad period ahead but after correction join the other group.
Then there is the conclusion of the aions. No more aions/time.
Another thing is that this is judgement of works. Read the few verses before this one.
So it isn't even about faith in Jesus. And that faith is teh only way into heaven.
Of course it's about faith in Christ . .that's the crux of it all. Judgment does not come based on your works . . .it comes due to rejection of the one who gives us free passage. The works are merely evidence of the fact that rejection has taken place. If you accept Christ . . .he then is working in you both to will and to do his good pleasure . . .he's transforming your desires into his. So that the works on the outside will reflect what has happened on the inside.
Works are simply outside evidence of an inside decision
Doc, if I understand the grammatical reasonings behind the adjective 'aionios' then the adjective MUST agree in meaning with the noun; it can't mean something different. So the 'quality' of life mentioned by Jesus, seems to be pertaining to 'ages' and ages are temporary. (I've read that we may be in the 4th age, and the next age is the 1000 year reign or Kingdom Age). Why use a word that can only mean 'temporary' or for a certain period of time with an end? We ALREADY have 'aionios' life surely, in that we are in time and we live in one of the ages. Why didn't Jesus use the Greek word for 'immortal' to describe the superior life that only He can give to us unless of course, some of the Greek scholars are right, and aionios can mean 'eternal'?? The judgment that Jesus speaks of, for the goats, is not one of endless torment, but rather their being 'cut off' and their permanent death sentence is an endless judgment or punishment?
Whitewings and Nathan, thanks for your thoughts too. I've got this mind block. Because I've always read the verses as 'eternal' life, it's strange to not view it like that now, and I don't understand still.........
2 Corinthians 4:18 makes me the most problems:
while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen; for the things that are seen are for a time (proskairos), but those that are not seen eternal (aionios)
what does proskairos mean? - it may just contrast short time with long time, not time in general with eternity?
Sven, thanks for bringing this verse to my attention. It seems to compound the points I've been making. I hope someone here can explain these verses for us! :mshock:
L. Ray Smith has written on 2 Cor 4:18 over at bible-truths.com
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2166.msg17406.html#msg17406
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
Here is an excerpt:
Comment: The concept of "eternity" is foreign to the Holy Scriptures. There is virtually nothing that is outside of the time periods known as aions. There are just a couple of hints regarding life beyond the ages of time. Luke speaks of things pertaining to the Kingdom, not coming to an end. And Paul tells us that in resurrection we will have "incorruption" and "immortality" signifying "deathlessness," but neither word has to do with time itself. Paul also speaks of a time in which God will be "ALL in all." That is the extent to which the Scriptures even hint of eternity or anything beyond the ages of time.
II Cor. 4:18 is neither speaking of "deathless" or "everlasting," as you suggest. It is speaking of what is happening now, in our life of flesh, and what will happen during the ages of our reign with Christ in the kingdom of God. The things of this life, we SEE daily. The things pertaining to the Kingdom of God are as yet "NOT seen." Again, it is not even speaking of what is "visible" and "Invisible," but rather what is NOW SEEN as compared with things "eonian" and NOT YET SEEN, which when seen will not be temporary, but will last through whole eons of time. And all that is perfected through the Kingdom of God and the reign of Christ bringing all enemies into subjection, will last on PAST the eons, and will have NO END.
The next great event in prophecy is not eternity, but rather the END of this eon and the BEGINNING of the next—the one in which the very elect will reign with Christ. There is no sense in jumping into eternity when as yet, we have numerous ages to yet live and administer God's government and His Great Judgment. And so, what is not yet seen, is "eonian" (pertaining to the eons), and not "eternity" as you and the King James suggests in this verse."
That explains it for me.
Legoman
I'm surprised none of you said that "Today" is the name of the thief on the cross, kind of like we name some girls "Tuesday." I bought a dog from a girl named Tuesday. That dog died this year.
"I am saying to you Today . . . "
Hey it's as good as some of the other thoughts here.
disclaimer: I don't really think the thief on the cross was named "Today." Maybe Threeday but not Today.
I'm glad I stayed out of this conversation as it has developed in a way I would never have thought it would, and, who knows, if I got involved from its beginning I may have interfered with all the thoughts on this subject. Some thoughts make me want to :CryBaby: and some make me :laugh: and some are very :umnick: and some thoughts make me think some are :skittles: their ideas like a circus act.
But it is good to see all the different ideas, I guess.
Can you imagine if all of you thought just like me? :laughing7:
I guess it ain't gonna happen. Best to just get along, share our thoughts, fellowship in love.
It's like the ole saying:j
If you love someone let them go.
If they don't return, hunt them down and beat the crap out of them! Ha!
Well, O.K. not exactly like that. LOL!
I'm sitting in an old Mill built in the early 1800's drinking a cup of coffee with my pup beside me on a couch, and me with my laptop using wireless, communicating to fellow believers around the world. How cool is that? The founders of our United States never imagined what our day would be like with jet aircraft, people going to the moon and living on a space station and we communicating through the air with devices we put up to our ears.
Tony
Legoman, thanks for the links. I'll check them out. I'm rather cautious of L. Ray Smith, as his beliefs on evil and its origins are let's say rather unorthodox and could even be blasphemous.
Quote from: Cat on February 15, 2009, 03:39:15 PM
Legoman, thanks for the links. I'll check them out. I'm rather cautious of L. Ray Smith, as his beliefs on evil and its origins are let's say rather unorthodox and could even be blasphemous.
Some would call it heresy, but others would call it the TRUTH :winkgrin:
Seriously, I've read most of Ray Smith's stuff multiple times - you may fault him for his delivery, but I believe he speaks the truth - everything he says is backed by scripture.
Perhaps this is off-topic, but Isaiah 45:7 seems to say it clearly:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and
create evil [Ra]: I the LORD do all these things.
Cheers,
Legoman
Legoman, I would agree that his delivery could be more loving and patient, but that aside, I too thought his reasonings on the evil thing quite convincing, but then I checked out this article:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html
A few snippets from it:
''Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Hebrew word translated "peace" is shâlôm,2 which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. Râ‛âh,3 the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity. There are two forms of the word. Strong's H7451a most often refers to moral evil, whereas Strong's H7451b (the form used here) most often refers to calamity or distress. Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil." ''
"Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. (Job 34:10)''
''For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. (Psalms 5:4)''
I don't see any point in looking beyond these scriptures and risk attributing 'evil' to the Holy God who IS Love. We can't really comprehend how God can tolerate evil and hold back His hand when terrible things happen, but one day we will understand.. :happygrin:
Cat,
Many translations don't use the word evil you are right about that. But at least they say God creates something negative. Not just love. What is darkness? Just dark or evil?
God created everything. God also knew what kind of evil His creation would do.
It's not that God created the love part of the world and another god created the evil part.
Some translations:
Isa 45:7
(Complete Apostles' Bible) I am He that prepared light, and formed darkness; who makes peace, and creates calamity; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.
(ASV) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
(BBE) I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
(VW) forming the light and creating darkness; making peace and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.
(Brenton) I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.
(CEV) I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the LORD, do all of this.
(Darby) forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
(DRB) I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
(DSV) Ik formeer het licht, en schep de duisternis; Ik maak den vrede en schep het kwaad, Ik, de HEERE, doe al deze dingen.
(ESV) I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.
(Geneva) I forme the light and create darkenes: I make peace and create euill: I the Lorde doe all these things.
(GNB) I create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the LORD, do all these things.
(GW) I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.
(JPS) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
(KJ2000) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.
(KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(KJV-1611) I forme the light, and create darkenesse: I make peace, and create euill: I the Lord do all these things.
(KJVA) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(KJVR) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(LITV) forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.
(MKJV) forming the light and creating darkness; making peace and creating evil. I Jehovah do all these things.
(NET.) I am the one who forms light
and creates darkness;
the one who brings about peace
and creates calamity.
I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.
(Rotherham) Forming light and creating darkness, Making prosperity, and creating misfortune,—I—Yahweh, who doeth all these.
(RV) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
(The Scriptures 1998+) forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil. I, יהוה, do all these.'
(UPDV) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Yahweh, that does all these things.
(Webster) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(YLT) Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
What is the difference, this context, between evil and calamity?
The way I see it calamity is just a milder form of evil. But it can get very close to real evil.
Below a list of some verses that directly point to evil/calamity. And some the point/hint towards it.
Amos 3:6 ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Hosea 13:16 Samaria is held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped open.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Þ God created evil for a purpose?
Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear. For Your servants' sake, return the tribes of Your inheritance.
Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion, take refuge, do not wait around; for I will bring evil from the north, and great destruction.
Jeremiah 18:11 Now then, go speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I am forming evil against you, and devising a plan against you. Return now, each one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
God gave Satan charge over Job, his body, and all his possessions, to try him severely before God: It was GOD'S idea to severely try Job, not Satan's.
But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job.
Do we think God does it differently today? Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change....
Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
1 Kings 22:22 And Jehovah said to him, In what way? And he said, I will go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.
Psalms 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own house; ....
1 Samuel 15:2-3 So says Jehovah of Hosts, .... go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
Quote from: Cat on February 15, 2009, 03:39:15 PM
I'm rather cautious of L. Ray Smith, as his beliefs on evil and its origins are let's say rather unorthodox and could even be blasphemous.
All of UR is unorthodox (viewed from ETs)
Isn't blasphemy
intentionally slandering God/Jesus/HS/Bible?
Ray backs up his words with verses. So at minimum his intentions are good.
If he's wrong I doubt that blasphemy becaue of this verse.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
For me 'workman' is the keyword of this verse. A workman represent the majority of society that isn't a (Bible) scholar. Someone with an average brain that can make
honest mistakes. So for me the verse say: Do the best you can and it will please God.
Just my :2c:
Quote from: Cat on February 16, 2009, 06:31:50 PM
Legoman, I would agree that his delivery could be more loving and patient, but that aside, I too thought his reasonings on the evil thing quite convincing, but then I checked out this article:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html
A few snippets from it:
"Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Hebrew word translated "peace" is shâlôm,2 which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. Râ‛âh,3 the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity. There are two forms of the word. Strong's H7451a most often refers to moral evil, whereas Strong's H7451b (the form used here) most often refers to calamity or distress. Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil." "
"Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. (Job 34:10)"
"For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. (Psalms 5:4)"
I don't see any point in looking beyond these scriptures and risk attributing 'evil' to the Holy God who IS Love. We can't really comprehend how God can tolerate evil and hold back His hand when terrible things happen, but one day we will understand.. :happygrin:
Cat, what the others have said here is right on. There are numerous places in scripture where God is said to be somehow responsible for adversity. But he has a purpose in it. Did He not create satan? (whatever you believe satan to be) the
adversary, Hmm.
Adversary, adversarial, adversity. I see a pattern here. While God does not commit wickedness, he does create adversity (evil) and uses it for a (good) purpose.
Remember the tree in the Garden that God put in place? The tree of knowledge of
Good and Evil?
We want a "safe" God, and that's a lot of why we have trouble believing the witness of scripture on this topic.
I think CS Lewis got it spot-on when he made the allegory of Christ/ God with the character of Aslan in the following quote: "Safe?, who said anything about safe? 'course he isn't safe, but he's Good."...
The Lion of Judah is "not a tame lion"...
A Good God has the wisdom and the power (and the right) to use evil for Good purposes.
Sometimes as believers that have grown up in the church, we adopt this sort of "cartoon character" view of God and the other bible characters, and we think they must always fit into the boxes we've been given for them. But keep in mind that God was not surprised by the choice that Adam and Eve made; he knew in advance of creating the world what would happen. God didn't institute "plan B" after the Garden. God has never had a "plan B", it's always been "plan A"....
Thanks for your feedback guys. I'm going to leave this topic alone. I actually feel very uneasy inside even thinking about it. :mshock:
Do most universalists believe like yourselves?
Quote from: Cat on February 16, 2009, 10:15:38 PM
Thanks for your feedback guys. I'm going to leave this topic alone. I actually feel very uneasy inside even thinking about it. :mshock:
Why?
Do you think those verses wern't inspired by God?
Ignoring parts of God is creating yourself a false God/image.
I would say not ignore the verses because you don't like them but study and then draw a conclusion. :bowing:
Quote from: Cat on February 16, 2009, 06:31:50 PM
Legoman, I would agree that his delivery could be more loving and patient, but that aside, I too thought his reasonings on the evil thing quite convincing, but then I checked out this article:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html
A few snippets from it:
"Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Hebrew word translated "peace" is shâlôm,2 which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. Râ‛âh,3 the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity. There are two forms of the word. Strong's H7451a most often refers to moral evil, whereas Strong's H7451b (the form used here) most often refers to calamity or distress. Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil." "
"Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. (Job 34:10)"
"For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. (Psalms 5:4)"
I don't see any point in looking beyond these scriptures and risk attributing 'evil' to the Holy God who IS Love. We can't really comprehend how God can tolerate evil and hold back His hand when terrible things happen, but one day we will understand.. :happygrin:
Hi Cat,
I understand your cautiousness and would not impune your walk as understanding can come fast in a burst or in slow bits.
The analysis though leaves me a bit puzzled as to the difference in "safety".
Is the explaination saying it contrasts "peace" to "calamity" telling us that God didn't create evil or calamity?
If thats the case then what justifies the rewording of scripture to say otherwise? To me that would contradict even your own cautionary advise to "stick with scripture".
I do not say that to critisize you personally, only wanting to see why it appears ok to you to do such a thing if thats what you believe they are doing.
On the other hand, if it is to say that it's ok to attribute Calamity to God, then really, thats just a soft sell based on fear. I personally am not concerned that God would give us his written word, make us translate it in an imperfect way then smite us because we think what we do.
I'm fine with the scripture as it is because it does not make God evil it makes him the sovereign ruler over the worst we can ever comprehend. That IS a good thing.
The article I provided a link for cites a few of the scriptures that say the exact opposite to the view that God is the author of evil (if that is what you are meaning). Just because something is unpleasant or calamitous does not mean it is evil in the sense that a sadistic, torturing murderer is evil. If you chastise your child, it will not be pleasant for the child, but the end result will be 'good'. Either God does not lie or deceive, or He does. If the scriptures say both, then it's most likely a translation issue or not understanding all the factors, as the scriputures do agree and are not contradictory. I am being careful and at the end of the day, if my 'spirit' is uneasy in me, at the idea that God deliberately created Satan, to be 'evil', or deliberately set the scene to ensure that we suffered through 'evil' then I do have a problem reconciling that with the God you portray as loving EVERYONE, so much so that He will save everyone ultimately. I have only come across this idea of evil being 'God's fault' via UR. This makes me somewhat suspicious of UR. It's as if you are presenting two extremes. Bear in mind I come from a more 'orthodox' view of God etc, and I've always had a problem with evil, but what you are proposing seems crazy and blasphemous (even if you sincerely believe yourselves to be right on this matter). If you are right, then it is up to God to show me. I want to know the truth. I believe in my 'spirit' that you are wrong on this matter.
Hi Cat,
Certainly not attempting to debate you to say you should be convinced. And the point you raise about it being God who will show you is indeed correct.
What God has done in my life is bring me to a point where I had no choice (despite what people say) but to acknowledge his truth.
This does not mean along the way, someone can show me what they "think" is truth, holding it over me like a loaded Gun then proceed to tell me that they have warned me of some impending doom, however minimal or extreme. I have the freedom to reject that and not be displeasing to this uheeemmm "unconditionally" loving God.
My point is that I do refuse to serve a God that wants me to come to him under such circumstances and if hell awaits me I welcome it.
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 12:16:11 AM
Just because something is unpleasant or calamitous does not mean it is evil in the sense that a sadistic, torturing murderer is evil.
Correct.
QuoteIf the scriptures say both, then it's most likely a translation issue or not understanding all the factors, as the scriputures do agree and are not contradictory.
Correct.
QuoteI am being careful and at the end of the day, if my 'spirit' is uneasy in me, at the idea that God deliberately created Satan, to be 'evil',
Do you think Gods has created something with flaws and/or overlooked them?
QuoteI have only come across this idea of evil being 'God's fault' via UR.
The question is: Fault or purpose?
QuoteIt's as if you are presenting two extremes. Bear in mind I come from a more 'orthodox' view of God etc, and I've always had a problem with evil, but what you are proposing seems crazy and blasphemous (even if you sincerely believe yourselves to be right on this matter).
I think you are wrong here Cat.
The orthodox are presenting two extremes not UR.
Othodox: God is love during your lifetime. God tortures the majority in hell for eternity.
UR: God is love. He manages evil (for some reason) during your lifetime. After your die (eventually) you reach heaven.
QuoteIf you are right, then it is up to God to show me. I want to know the truth. I believe in my 'spirit' that you are wrong on this matter.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God....
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
I won't soft sell anything either Cat, relenquishing what you have believed all or most of your life is hard, scary, painful.
I stayed in organized religion and that instruction far longer than I wish I had, and yes, for a time when I left I felt all alone, I was scared, I wanted to run back to avoid that feeling.
I almost did and divine intervention brought me two people in my life, two people who, according to tradition would say that surely listening to them would send me straight to hell. Yet, I saw love, maybe not perfect but a love I had not experienced for many years. Their desire is truth at any cost, even their own families love and they proved they are brave and confident rather thart haughty and prideful.
I was surprised even today by another person who may indeed add to that joy I feared would be gone forever. I was surprised that through a couple of people who are hellbound by tradition I have seen a greater love for my wife.
I cannot prove any of this and am not attempting too, I am saying this is the verification in my own life for where I am reminded, "yeah though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil"
It is simply incredible and I want people to experience real incredible things that are not emotional fixes that they then have to go back the next week to have to experience again. I want the things for people that lock in something solid and tight in knowledge and confidence. It does not have to be what I have experienced, but for each persons life to get something out of life that strong.
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 12:16:11 AM
The article I provided a link for cites a few of the scriptures that say the exact opposite to the view that God is the author of evil
Lets take an example from that article: (same 3 verses from 2 modern translations)
Lamentations 3:37-39Whose command was ever fulfilled unless the Lord decreed it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that everything comes– both calamity and blessing?
Why should any living person complain when punished for his sins?
Lamentations 3:37-39Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth?
Why should any living mortal, or any man, Offer complaint in view of his sins?
That's the context they speak of. IMO it proves instead of disproves UR....
For an even beter context start reading at verse 28
It starts with saying God diciplines and does harm but always makes it right because of His endless love.
Lamentations 3:37-39Whose command was ever fulfilled unless the Lord decreed it?
What command given by a human was ever done without God approving the command?
Satan also asked for permission to test/harm Job.
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that everything comes– both calamity and blessing?
Already discussed.
Why should any living person complain when punished for his sins?
Just accept the punishment God gives.
Hmmm, I just posted a reply and it's not there. I'll try again. Paul, I see what you are saying and agree with you in the main. I can get my head around the idea that God will save everyone and I truly hope that is the case. I do not believe in a literal hell and I'm glad to know that God is not the author of such an evil place. I am not 'avoiding' certain ideas out of 'fear for my soul' type of fear, but I am cautious regarding this topic, out of love or respect for God. There are many 'beliefs' I have come across that I am not sure of, having considered both sides, and I don't fret about them because I don't think they have a bearing on your being 'saved'. I don't think we can get our limited minds around the problem of evil, and will only understand once it's done away with. I'll content myself with the knowledge that God is love. ''Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?'' Gen 18:25
WhiteWings, I can't deny that God allows evil. What do you make of the other scriptures in that article that say the OPPOSITE to what you maintain? E.g: "Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. (Job 34:10) and ''Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. (James 1:13) ''
Cat,
WhiteWings, Doc, and Paul have given you a lot of good information to think about. Thanks WhiteWings for posting all those scriptures... saved me from going to look them up. :bigGrin:
If you really want to understand what we are here for and what the purpose of it all is, IMHO it seems to me there are a few concepts we need to wrap our heads around:
1. God is COMPLETELY 100% sovereign (not many people believe this even though they may say they do)
2. God will save everyone eventually (not many people believe this)
3. God is the creator of all, and is responsible for all. He works all according to his purposes - this includes evil. But his purposes are good - therefore he created evil for a good purpose.
Now the mainstream view makes a critical error in not fully believing in God's sovereignty. They would look at things more like this:
1. God is sovereign, except when it comes to our free choices to reject him and sin. Man's "sovereignty" actually overrides God's sovereignty.
2. Because man is sovereign, he is free to reject God, therefore hell must exist and God will not save all (even though it is God's will that all be saved - 1 Tim 2:4, 1 Tim 4:10, 2 Peter 3:9).
3. God created all... except all the evil stuff. That was created by Satan and ourselves.
Look at this way: Do you think God designed the biggest Windows program in the universe, and that Evil is some giant bug that slipped by his quality control? God made a mistake? I don't think so.
No, this all flies in the face of God being sovereign. Either he is sovereign or he isn't. The bible quite clearly says God is sovereign, in multiple hundreds of scriptures (just do a search on biblegateway.com yourself).
You seem to be worried about blaspheming God by attributing evil to Him. Yet you don't seem to be as worried about denying the full sovereignty of God - just something to think about - which some would say is the biggest blasphemy of all. If God is not sovereign, then He is not God.
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 12:16:11 AM
Just because something is unpleasant or calamitous does not mean it is evil in the sense that a sadistic, torturing murderer is evil. If you chastise your child, it will not be pleasant for the child, but the end result will be 'good'.
I believe this to be an accurate view. God creates evil for a purpose - essentially for our own character growth. We are being pruned and refined until we will be ultimately good. And we can't be good until we know evil.
QuoteEither God does not lie or deceive, or He does. If the scriptures say both, then it's most likely a translation issue or not understanding all the factors, as the scriputures do agree and are not contradictory. I am being careful and at the end of the day, if my 'spirit' is uneasy in me, at the idea that God deliberately created Satan, to be 'evil', or deliberately set the scene to ensure that we suffered through 'evil' then I do have a problem reconciling that with the God you portray as loving EVERYONE, so much so that He will save everyone ultimately. I have only come across this idea of evil being 'God's fault' via UR. This makes me somewhat suspicious of UR. It's as if you are presenting two extremes. Bear in mind I come from a more 'orthodox' view of God etc, and I've always had a problem with evil, but what you are proposing seems crazy and blasphemous (even if you sincerely believe yourselves to be right on this matter).
You are correct that the scriptures never contradict - only our understanding seems to contradict.
Whitewings was right on here. Your logic seems to fail at this point. How is UR more extreme than the mainstream? The mainstream says God loves everyone but will consign 90% of humanity to eternal torment. UR says God loves all and will save all, but along the way (like any good parent) He is going to teach us some stuff. Sometimes it won't be fun, but ultimately its for our own good.
Do you think God is just putting us through all these evil situations for fun? Or is it for some greater purpose that requires an experience of evil?
Have you ever thought why didn't He create everyone "good" to begin with? Why did He even allow evil at all? He is sovereign right? Why not just create us in heaven and everyone would be happy? Why did he create Satan? Why does he "allow" evil?
The reason is: He is creating us to be good! RIGHT NOW - it is a process. He is still making us. We are being formed as we speak. We are learning knowledge of good and evil, and eventually we will be shown how to be ultimately good. God didn't make (past tense) us in his image. No. He is (present and future tense) still making us in his image. This life we are in is just part of the process that will carry on through the ages until God is all in all.
Quote
If you are right, then it is up to God to show me. I want to know the truth. I believe in my 'spirit' that you are wrong on this matter.
It is up to God to show you. What you can do is pray that He give you understanding. Be careful though, you don't always get the answer you want. That's what happened to me... :winkgrin:
Legoman
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 12:16:11 AM
I have only come across this idea of evil being 'God's fault' via UR. This makes me somewhat suspicious of UR.
Its not that its "God's fault". But it is God's purpose.
I think it all comes down to God's sovereignty - just to summarize my previous lengthy post.
UR believers realize God will save all, therefore He is fully sovereign in that he will realize his ultimate will (to save all and have none perish). This then leads to the idea: if God is sovereign, he must also be responsible for evil - yet it must be for a good purpose.
For an Eternal Torment believer God's sovereignty presents a bit of a problem as that would mean that God intended for people to burn in Hell. This doesn't fit (quite rightly) with a loving God so they diminish God's sovereignty by suggesting humans can override God's will by rejecting him forever. It also gives the ET believer an excuse to let God "off the hook" for evil.
Let me put it this way:
God isn't going to let any puny human get in the way of his plan :winkgrin:
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 01:22:07 AM
WhiteWings, I can't deny that God allows evil.
Sorry to keep harping on this, but yet again we run into God's sovereignty (really I can't stress this enough - understanding God's sovereignty is crucial to understanding why we are here).
If God is truly sovereign is there anything that is "allowed" - is it not instead fully permitted and in fact intended by God? I have visions of Satan twisting God's arm and God says "ok ok fine, you can do evil
this time, but watch out I might not let you next time, or maybe I will if you twist my arm again... blah blah blah". Who are we kidding here. God is not a man. He is not like us. To God, Satan is an insignificant pest - a tiny flea. God could stop all the evil in the world in a instant if He wanted too. But he does not. Therefore it is part of God's plan and purpose.
Quote
What do you make of the other scriptures in that article that say the OPPOSITE to what you maintain? E.g: "Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. (Job 34:10) and "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. (James 1:13) "
God does not tempt anyone directly... that's what He has Satan and his messengers around for. God sends out lying (and other) spirits on a number of occasions (1 Kings 22, 2 Chron 18, etc).
Its even in the Lord's prayer. Why do we pray "Lead us not into temptation" if God never tempts us?
The truth is God indirectly will cause us to be tried, tested, and YES, even tempted. How are we tempted most of the time? By our own desires. The flesh is weak. But wait - who is it that created us in this spiritually weak state so that we will give into the desires of the flesh? Yes, you know it - God created us that way.
God is the ultimate cause of everything. He is the one who "works all according to the counsel of his will" (Eph 1:10-11).
Cheers,
Legoman
Legoman, thanks for your replies. I will re-read them and check out the points you are making. Let us just clarify a few things though before we go any further:
Do you guys believe that ALL evil is purposed by God? Now I can understand that we need pain in order to keep living. OUr bodies need to sense pain or we would keep hurting ourselves and we'd die. So a 'little' bit of discomfort does us good. I understand when God has to chastise us and we 'suffer' as a consequence. Are you lumping in ALL kinds of evil like child abuse, torture, etc as having a purpose too? I need to clear this up first?
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 01:22:07 AM
WhiteWings, I can't deny that God allows evil. What do you make of the other scriptures in that article that say the OPPOSITE to what you maintain? E.g: "Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. (Job 34:10) and "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. (James 1:13) "
QuoteDo you guys believe that ALL evil is purposed by God? Now I can understand that we need pain in order to keep living. OUr bodies need to sense pain or we would keep hurting ourselves and we'd die. So a 'little' bit of discomfort does us good. I understand when God has to chastise us and we 'suffer' as a consequence. Are you lumping in ALL kinds of evil like child abuse, torture, etc as having a purpose too? I need to clear this up first?
Cat,
I wish I had an answer for your questions. I simply don't have them. Because I simply don't know.
As wrote earlier there are no contradictions in the Bible. So now we found verses that seem to contradict on the evil part we need to figure out if they all are pro or con the 'God does evil' idea.
And yes for me it's also very hard to grasp that God has a hand in (lots of) evil. But the OT has several examples where God does some killing. Flood. Sodom Gomorah. Wars.
So what we have to do (my personal opinion) is try to look with an open mind to the Bible. The verses should show us the character of God. And not try to force fit the verses in how we think God should be.
Finally, for this post that is :laughing7: , you said I only trust my Spirit.
That spirit also was with you when you where orthodox, as you called it.
Now you are investigating UR.
Was your spirit wrong in your orthodox years? Or is the Spirit wrong now.
Or are you just on a journey with your Spirit?
If the last; then your Spirit hasn't shared als his knowledge with you yet.
Forgetful? Deceitful? Purposeful? That's what you my answer. I would say the third option.
But as said. I don't know all. FAAAAR from all. That's why I'm here....
Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
who does the Lord have thought of peace for?
what other thoughts does he have and do, and to whom?
Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Jer 29:17 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will send upon them the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.
Jer 29:18 And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and a hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them:
Jer 29:19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.
Jer 29:20 Hear ye therefore the word of the LORD, all ye of the captivity, whom I have sent from Jerusalem to Babylon:
Jer 29:21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, of Ahab the son of Kolaiah, and of Zedekiah the son of Maaseiah, which prophesy a lie unto you in my name; Behold, I will deliver them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; and he shall slay them before your eyes;
Jer 29:22 And of them shall be taken up a curse by all the captivity of Judah which are in Babylon, saying, The LORD make thee like Zedekiah and like Ahab, whom the king of Babylon roasted in the fire;
Jer 29:23 Because they have committed villainy in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbors' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the LORD.
Jer 29:32 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed: he shall not have a man to dwell among this people; neither shall he behold the good that I will do for my people, saith the LORD; because he hath taught rebellion against the LORD.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 08:37:44 AM
Legoman, thanks for your replies. I will re-read them and check out the points you are making. Let us just clarify a few things though before we go any further:
Do you guys believe that ALL evil is purposed by God? Now I can understand that we need pain in order to keep living. OUr bodies need to sense pain or we would keep hurting ourselves and we'd die. So a 'little' bit of discomfort does us good. I understand when God has to chastise us and we 'suffer' as a consequence. Are you lumping in ALL kinds of evil like child abuse, torture, etc as having a purpose too? I need to clear this up first?
Hi Cat,
This is definitely a tough subject to get your head around. I don't treat it lightly - in fact I still have trouble with it, for some of the things you mentioned make no sense to us. However lets see what the scriptures say, and then honestly ask yourself, do I believe the scriptures?
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Here we see all things are of God. God has declared the end from the beginning - he has purposed it all and will bring it to pass. And God works all things after the counsel of his own will.
So since he has declared everything that will happen, and all things are of God and he works all things according to his will - this would include all evil wouldn't it? Even rape, child abuse, torture, etc. It is all for a purpose, but we may not understand it.
And don't get me wrong. It doesn't mean God wants us to go around doing evil. But it is used for His purposes. God frames evil (Jer 18:11) "Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you:". Notice he
frames evil - he restricts its full power, yet he still uses it.
Another example. What about Hitler? Hitler was responsible for many atrocities beyond what you listed. Surely God would have stopped Hitler if God had wanted, right? Here is what the scriptures say:
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
God directs the kings as he pleases. In fact, the rulers of the world only have their power because God ordained it to be. So in fact, Hitler was doing exactly as God had purposed, even though Hitler will still be held severely accountable for what he did. Hitler will be accountable, but God is ultimately responsible. Just like we will all be accountable to God for what we do, yet God is ultimately responsible and will restore and correct all in the end.
Now don't get me wrong, like Whitewings and others have said, I find it difficult to comprehend this sometimes to. However it does give me some comfort that there is purpose for EVERYTHING that happens, even the bad stuff.
Its a tough subject. I recommend reading Ray Smith's free will series:
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
Part C has a lot about evil.
Legoman
Legoman, you said:
''So since he has declared everything that will happen, and all things are of God and he works all things according to his will - this would include all evil wouldn't it? Even rape, child abuse, torture, etc. It is all for a purpose, but we may not understand it.''
I do not believe this to be true.
I can 'see' that evil is a reality that unfortunately accompanies 'free-will'. It would seem that mankind 'needed' to experience evil in order to understand and appreciate goodness, or rather living according to God's laws or guidelines. God knew that man would disobey Him and had already put in place the Way (Jesus) back to Him, or the means to undo the evil that became a reality. I am content to leave it at this. I can see what you are saying and why- there are many scriptures that 'seem' to infer what you are saying and I don't doubt your motives in this. If I am wrong then I pray God will show me. God knowing about evil and it's potential to become a reality, is different to 'creating' it, or creating a creature that does not have free will and whose sole purpose is to lie and cause as much suffering as possible ie Satan.
WhiteWings, If something makes me feel uneasy and 'worried' then I pay attention to that. The idea of UR does not make me feel like that, but rather I feel rather excited that it could be true.
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 09:23:55 PM
Legoman, you said:
"So since he has declared everything that will happen, and all things are of God and he works all things according to his will - this would include all evil wouldn't it? Even rape, child abuse, torture, etc. It is all for a purpose, but we may not understand it."
I do not believe this to be true.
I can 'see' that evil is a reality that unfortunately accompanies 'free-will'. It would seem that mankind 'needed' to experience evil in order to understand and appreciate goodness, or rather living according to God's laws or guidelines. God knew that man would disobey Him and had already put in place the Way (Jesus) back to Him, or the means to undo the evil that became a reality. I am content to leave it at this. I can see what you are saying and why- there are many scriptures that 'seem' to infer what you are saying and I don't doubt your motives in this. If I am wrong then I pray God will show me. God knowing about evil and it's potential to become a reality, is different to 'creating' it, or creating a creature that does not have free will and whose sole purpose is to lie and cause as much suffering as possible ie Satan.
WhiteWings, If something makes me feel uneasy and 'worried' then I pay attention to that. The idea of UR does not make me feel like that, but rather I feel rather excited that it could be true.
Cat, I don't know if it's helpful to you at all, but I see the notion of God creating evil in the sense that the presence of light creates the presence of shadow. Anything that blocks the transmission of that light casts a shadow. The thing is, God created those "blocking" things as well, knowing they would cast the shadow. But again, there is purpose in all of it.
If God never meant for us to know good and evil, then why would he have put the tree of knowledge of them in the Garden? He could have simply chosen not to go there, but He did. Which tells me He had a purpose in it.
The Lord bless you as you search for His truth. Just don't expect it to always be comfortable.
Doc, just to let you know . . . I sure enjoy your posts. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Nathan on February 17, 2009, 09:57:30 PM
Doc, just to let you know . . . I sure enjoy your posts. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Thanks Nathan; and right back at ya! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 09:23:55 PM
Legoman, you said:
"So since he has declared everything that will happen, and all things are of God and he works all things according to his will - this would include all evil wouldn't it? Even rape, child abuse, torture, etc. It is all for a purpose, but we may not understand it."
I do not believe this to be true.
A question for you. Do you believe the verses I quoted above are true, (Isa 46:10, Eph 1:11, 2 Cor 5:18) and that all things really are from God, and that He really has declared everything that will happen, and that he works all things according to his will? If you do believe these verses (which I hope you do - its straight from the bible), then its not much of a step to realize that "all things" includes evil. God really is in control of all things.
Consider the alternative: God is not in control of all things! How scary of a thought is that? If God is not in control of evil, what guarantee do we have that He will be able to abolish it eventually? But we don't have to worry about that proposition because the bible quite clearly says
God is in control of all things. Evil will be abolished on God's timetable.
Another thing to remember: God is not a man, and conversely, men are not God. There are many things God does that men should not do. God is good. Just because He uses evil does not make Him evil - because he uses evil for a greater good. Men cannot (and should not try to) use evil for the greater good because they don't have the power to correct/restore everything - the power that God has.
You may want to check out some of the past threads on tentmaker about evil. Here's one:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2853.0
Definitely its not an easy journey to take in all of this new information and most likely completely opposite ideas of what you had been taught. Take your time and ask God for guidance.
I am glad you are excited about the possibility of UR.
Legoman
Quote from: legoman on February 17, 2009, 10:18:06 PM
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 09:23:55 PM
Legoman, you said:
"So since he has declared everything that will happen, and all things are of God and he works all things according to his will - this would include all evil wouldn't it? Even rape, child abuse, torture, etc. It is all for a purpose, but we may not understand it."
I do not believe this to be true.
A question for you. Do you believe the verses I quoted above are true, (Isa 46:10, Eph 1:11, 2 Cor 5:18) and that all things really are from God, and that He really has declared everything that will happen, and that he works all things according to his will? If you do believe these verses (which I hope you do - its straight from the bible), then its not much of a step to realize that "all things" includes evil. God really is in control of all things.
Consider the alternative: God is not in control of all things! How scary of a thought is that? If God is not in control of evil, what guarantee do we have that He will be able to abolish it eventually? But we don't have to worry about that proposition because the bible quite clearly says God is in control of all things. Evil will be abolished on God's timetable.
Another thing to remember: God is not a man, and conversely, men are not God. There are many things God does that men should not do. God is good. Just because He uses evil does not make Him evil - because he uses evil for a greater good. Men cannot (and should not try to) use evil for the greater good because they don't have the power to correct/restore everything - the power that God has.
You may want to check out some of the past threads on tentmaker about evil. Here's one:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2853.0
Definitely its not an easy journey to take in all of this new information and most likely completely opposite ideas of what you had been taught. Take your time and ask God for guidance.
I am glad you are excited about the possibility of UR.
Legoman
Exactly, lego. This is why walking in the spirit is so important. Sometimes God will ask us to do things that could be seen as "evil" by looking at the surface of them, but if we are truly walking in the spirit and God is giving us a clear instruction, we are accomplishing his will, no matter how it "looks". Only God has the capacity to do this right, so we must always look to Him and do and say only what we see the Father doing and saying.
Quote from: Doc on February 17, 2009, 09:36:36 PM
Cat, I don't know if it's helpful to you at all, but I see the notion of God creating evil in the sense that the presence of light creates the presence of shadow. Anything that blocks the transmission of that light casts a shadow. The thing is, God created those "blocking" things as well, knowing they would cast the shadow. But again, there is purpose in all of it.
If God never meant for us to know good and evil, then why would he have put the tree of knowledge of them in the Garden? He could have simply chosen not to go there, but He did. Which tells me He had a purpose in it.
The Lord bless you as you search for His truth. Just don't expect it to always be comfortable.
Doc, I can accept that we had to know about evil. Evil is a reality and possibility as far as free will is concerned, or with respects to the material universe and humans who have not been 'perfected'. We can only really reject evil by having experienced it. I accept that God does things which to our human minds are bad or evil e.g drowning a whole world of human beings, commanding the Israelites to kill men, women and children by the sword- stuff like that. I cannot understand why God uses these 'carnal' methods to accomplish His will. Anyway, I agree with you that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was put there by God for a purpose and it's interesting that God said 'they have become like us, knowing good and evil''. Very interesting. Thanks for your help.
Legoman, yes, I believe the verses are true but I have no problem in believing that man (and angels too) can perpetrate evils that do not originate from God e.g child abuse. God indeed allows man and angels to 'make a reality' of every conceivable evil and perversion imaginable. Every possibility or way of living according to our free wills seems to be needed to be 'tested' in order to show up how man cannot walk even to direct his steps. Can you see how I make a distinction here? God knows all things. He knows evil and every conceivable outworking of it but this does not mean He will go against His own holiness. It seems He uses the existing evil that is generated by man and angels to work for good ultimately, and of course once He reconciles His creation, evil will no doubt be consigned to an 'abstract' realm. Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 11:38:48 PM
yes, I believe the verses are true but I have no problem in believing that man (and angels too) can perpetrate evils that do not originate from God e.g child abuse.
I think God declares in Isaiah that he created evil because there is no other power that can over come it. He takes the responsibility that is rightly his in the first place.
I think there is a difference between God creating evil and perpretating that evil from his own spirit. But, God set in motion a process he knew good and well what was going to happen.
Quote from: Cat on February 17, 2009, 11:38:48 PM
Quote from: Doc on February 17, 2009, 09:36:36 PM
Cat, I don't know if it's helpful to you at all, but I see the notion of God creating evil in the sense that the presence of light creates the presence of shadow. Anything that blocks the transmission of that light casts a shadow. The thing is, God created those "blocking" things as well, knowing they would cast the shadow. But again, there is purpose in all of it.
If God never meant for us to know good and evil, then why would he have put the tree of knowledge of them in the Garden? He could have simply chosen not to go there, but He did. Which tells me He had a purpose in it.
The Lord bless you as you search for His truth. Just don't expect it to always be comfortable.
Doc, I can accept that we had to know about evil. Evil is a reality and possibility as far as free will is concerned, or with respects to the material universe and humans who have not been 'perfected'. We can only really reject evil by having experienced it. I accept that God does things which to our human minds are bad or evil e.g drowning a whole world of human beings, commanding the Israelites to kill men, women and children by the sword- stuff like that. I cannot understand why God uses these 'carnal' methods to accomplish His will. Anyway, I agree with you that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was put there by God for a purpose and it's interesting that God said 'they have become like us, knowing good and evil". Very interesting. Thanks for your help.
Legoman, yes, I believe the verses are true but I have no problem in believing that man (and angels too) can perpetrate evils that do not originate from God e.g child abuse. God indeed allows man and angels to 'make a reality' of every conceivable evil and perversion imaginable. Every possibility or way of living according to our free wills seems to be needed to be 'tested' in order to show up how man cannot walk even to direct his steps. Can you see how I make a distinction here? God knows all things. He knows evil and every conceivable outworking of it but this does not mean He will go against His own holiness. It seems He uses the existing evil that is generated by man and angels to work for good ultimately, and of course once He reconciles His creation, evil will no doubt be consigned to an 'abstract' realm. Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.
No problem, Cat. Glad it was helpful.
Here's a little something for you to chew on, regarding your second paragraph to legoman where you brought up holiness in the context of God not going against his own holiness.
From Strong's: G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος
hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
The sense I get from that word is that something that is holy is something that is 'set apart' (as in, for a purpose); it can be defined as 'morally blameless' as in hagios above, but that is not the sense of the root word hagos, as you can see above. Interestingly, in the Hebrew (qadash), it carries the sense of
making something consecrated, acceptable, etc. Which implies that the thing being made holy does not start out that way (not implying God does not start out holy). So I don't really see God going against His own holiness by using these things, because He is creating beauty out of ashes. He is in the process of consecrating everything.
This is proving a very interesting discussion and I've started reading the other thread that Legoman provided. I'll study these things and will come back to you. I'll 'hold fire' for now.... :winkgrin:
Thanks again.
I'm reading Ray L Smith's 'Lake of Fire' Series, and I've got a problem with this statement in Part 2: ''Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it.''
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
He also likens God's creation of humans to 'machines' that malfunction.
Humans are not machines that 'malfunction'. We were made in God's image. I think it 'foolish' to use this kind of comparison. As regards Ray's statement above, how would that tie in with Gen 6:5,6. Why would God be grieved if all this is part of His plan? I submit that God knew humans would not obey Him until they'd learned the hard way and He is responsible for permitting evil in the world, so that we can learn the hard way and eventually be brought to perfection and immortal life. This explains Rom 8:20-22 which is speaking about man AFTER he had disobeyed God and thus all the resulting 'bondage of corruption' that all creation suffers from. We didn't receive our death sentence willingly, and vacate the garden of eden 'willingly'. We had to. It was the punishment.
These verses demonstrate that God is 'responsible' for allowing this evil world but I don't think that must mean He is also to blame. I can see a difference.
I can accept that God deliberately put the tree of knowledge of good and bad in order to tempt Adam and Eve. He 'tested' their obedience and knew they would disobey and would have to learn the hard way what happens when we disobey. I can even accept that He planned this (temporary) seperation from Him whilst working out His plan of reconciliation and perfection through His Son. I can't understand how certain types of evil (child abuse etc) can be part of this plan. If we look at faithful people like Abraham (and even folk like Adam and Eve) who lived their lives without killing people and committing terrible acts of evil. They were still subject to the 'corruption' of their fallen state. All through the Bible we are told to be good and not sin. So certain types of sins are not part of God's purpose so it seems.....??
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 10:53:48 AM
He also likens God's creation of humans to 'machines' that malfunction.
Humans are not machines that 'malfunction'. We were made in God's image. I think it 'foolish' to use this kind of comparison.
Image is sometimes translated as shadow.
We might be an image but a very vad one because our powers are faaaar from those of God
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 24, 2009, 04:30:44 PM
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 10:53:48 AM
He also likens God's creation of humans to 'machines' that malfunction.
Humans are not machines that 'malfunction'. We were made in God's image. I think it 'foolish' to use this kind of comparison.
Image is sometimes translated as shadow.
We might be an image but a very vad one because our powers are faaaar from those of God
Yes, I agree, our 'resemblance' to God is very limited at the minute, although the power of Christ causes the transformation of ourselves into 'Christ' or 'God'. But we are far from 'machines', that is sure. That would suggest we are robots that cannot do anything 'freely', which if was the case, why bother with trying to 'flee from sin'?
I just thought of this scripture: Jer 7:31- isn't EVERYTHING (according to Ray Smith) meant to be purposed by God? This would seem to contradict that. And I would say that 'child abuse' 'rape' 'torture' are also things that don't come into God's heart.
I can't understand this sentiment of Ray's: ''I know that many people think I am too hard on Christian heresy. That's because I love them. Would you not show a little "hard" tough love to your children if they were taking mind-destroying DRUGS''. He's just spent the last few pages saying how we don't have free will and God purposes EVERYTHING that happens. These 'heretics' must have been purposed by God, so why all the fuss? See how this seems nonsensical?
Cat,
I understand why it seems to be nonsensical, but consider that God not only creates the end, but also the means to that end. For example, God is said to work in us both the desire and the actions that please him, yet he also said through Paul to work out our salvation. The end in this case are those things which please him, and God works that in us. However, one of the means by which he chooses to accomplish this is to use people like Paul to encourage us to work it out. The two may seem mutually exclusive, but they go hand in hand, simply because God wanted it to be that way. Hopefully this makes some sense of it. :)
Ron
QuoteWhy would God be grieved if all this is part of His plan?
Good question, but then we can also wonder why this verse is is in the bible.
1C 1:25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
People can actually be afraid of contemplating what this verse may mean. It could mean that there is indeed only one way to gain perfection and God cannot change it. This does not make God something we can overpower, it is just TRUTH.
Do you think God knowing the path we MUST take is not grieved that we will experience evil? Knowing it is the only path to righteousness?
Why does the bible need to even contain such a verse, is it just another riddle that we convolute so that we are comfortable in continuing the thought that there are no limits to God? Perhaps the limits have nothing to do with strength or power or sovereignty, it is simply the way it is and has to be.
Cat,
Here is Jer 7:31 from the KJV:
Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
Some versions say it never "came into my mind", but some versions say it never came into "my heart". I believe the 2nd is the better translation - if it never really came into the Lord's mind, then that would mean he is not all-knowing. By "my heart", we mean the emotional area of the conscious - it was not God's direct purpose that people should burn their sons & daughters in fire. Yet it was still necessary in the grand purpose of God's plan of the ages.
By the way, this is a good verse to show the truth of UR - God does not want his children to be burned in fire - it never entered his heart - yet he will send them (or let them go) into hell for eternity?!? I don't think so...
Legoman
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 05:55:34 PM
Do you think God knowing the path we MUST take is not grieved that we will experience evil? Knowing it is the only path to righteousness?
Exactly. God is like the parent who grieves when his son must go through discipline or adversity - it may not be a fun experience, yet it is completely necessary so that His children will develop the necessary character that God wishes.
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."
It is a silly thought to suggest that God became so angry at his failed creation that he changed his plan and just decided to wipe out creation. Was the creation out of control so much that God had to react and restart? Was God's first attempt a giant mistake - only worthy of being destroyed? Did God make a mistake?!? I don't think so - remember God is sovereign and is only working on plan A. There is no need for plan B.
Therefore it was God's plan from the beginning that eventually he would have to wipe them out with the flood (save Noah's familiy) because he knew they would become so evil -
because he had purposed it would happen that way!Yet this still grieved God. This is the amazing part. This was all part of God's perfect plan - it had to be that way, it could be no other way. It was all necessary so that God's plan can be achieved. God love's us more than we know... even so much that he is giving us an experience of evil.
Ecc 1:13 "It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it" (CLV)
Legoman
i often wonder if the bible is written from "man's perspective" of God, in other words; man perceived God to be grieved, etc. Written from a mind of "man failed God".
.
Where do emotions come from?? Does God really have emotions??
Don't emotions change from event to event? tossed around based on external? Can man really cause God to be grieved?? Seems then he would be a victim??
Good things happen---->happiness
Bad things happen---->sadness, grief etc??
are emotions a result of not being centered??
Is God centered?? The ROCK??
just thinking.
Well . . .God so "loved" the world . . .if God can love, he can be angered, pleasured . .he pleasures in me. I believe he's "not" an unemotional being, so that would then leave that he then must be . . . emotional.
Quote from: Nathan on February 24, 2009, 06:53:43 PM
Well . . .God so "loved" the world . . .if God can love, he can be angered, pleasured . .he pleasures in me. I believe he's "not" an unemotional being, so that would then leave that he then must be . . . emotional.
i'm not sure love is an emotion
is fear an emotion??
God can not fear
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
can one have grief without sorrow??
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 10:53:48 AM
Gen 6:5,6. Why would God be grieved if all this is part of His plan?
Genesis 6:5-6 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Perhaps He dislikes some part of His own plan? But the plan has to be that way... Just a tought.
The 2 verses are kinda weird IMO. If you read them it almost seems God was caught by suprise by the wickedness of man.
But he did know the wickedness would take place; even before creation.
I see it this way.
God designed a perfect plan. He is executing the plan righ now. Bad things like punishment are part of that plan. God is sad during the days of punishment; just like a parent isn't happy during spanking a child for his/her own good.
QuoteI can even accept that He planned this (temporary) seperation from Him whilst working out His plan of reconciliation and perfection through His Son. I can't understand how certain types of evil (child abuse etc) can be part of this plan.
Neither can I. But I don't understand anything about His plan anyway. Why 'insert' evil with the goal of removing it?
Why not just create 15 billion saints in Heaven?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 24, 2009, 07:22:25 PMNeither can I. But I don't understand anything about His plan anyway. Why 'insert' evil with the goal of removing it?
Why not just create 15 billion saints in Heaven?
Because a saint must have an
experiencial knowlege of evil, and of overcoming evil with good?
Hi Ron, thanks for your thoughts on this. It seems to me that if God provides the 'desire' and the 'actions' in us that please Him , that would suggest nothing is in our control, but the whole 'tone' of the Bible seems to suggest that we have got some kind of control, albeight restricted, but nevertheless we are capable of choosing good actions over bad. E.g Jesus told a story of two men who were asked to do something and one said he would but didn't and the other didn't really want to but did. Can't remember where it is. There are other verses where God is asking us to choose e.g Deut 30:19, Josh 24 :15.
Hi Paul, you quoted 1C 1:25. I rather imagined this to be understood along the lines that Judge Judy Scheindlin (I'm a great fan) likes to boast: 'On my worst day, I'm cleverer than you are on your best day' or words to that effect. In the same way, when I read that God has 'wings' I don't understand that to be literal. You said: ''Do you think God knowing the path we MUST take is not grieved that we will experience evil? Knowing it is the only path to righteousness?'' - Of course this is true, but what doesn't make sense if you are to go along the lines of Ray Smith's reasoning, is that God 'intended' all the suffering as His big plan and that must mean He intended the Moors Murderers (Myra Hindley and Ian Bradey) to torture, abuse and kill children. I cannot accept that and the very thought repulses me. I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.
Hi Legoman, you said: 'it was not God's direct purpose' - this is what I have been trying to convey. God knew evil would have to be part of His plan for a limited time and He uses 'evil' to accomplish His judgments etc (He doesn't use things like rape, abuse etc). The evils mankind and angels have 'created' are not directly intended by God, but He knows that every conceivable type of evil will be 'tried' if you like.
A lot of Ray Smith's article combines UR and eternal torment in with the 'evil' stuff and this mixes things up somewhat. I have no problem with the idea of UR and hope it is true but I'm not fully convinced as yet. I already know for sure there is no literal hell and hell's flames. These are not issues for me. The big issue at the minute is understanding where you guys come from with this 'evil' stuff. I'm not sure why only Universalists have come to this conclusion, although I'm sure not all of you believe this. I'll contine my replies to you all in my next post. Running out of space......
Legoman, you went on to talk about God's reaction in Gen 6 and how it was still God's plan to wipe them out. I re read the verses and I am struck by how God judged that world and wiped them out. I don't get the impression it was His will at all. I don't get the impression we can thwart God in some way by being disobedient, which is what seems to be claimed, when talking of free will. God is always in control.
Hi Bobf, you said: 'Because a saint must have an experiencial knowlege of evil, and of overcoming evil with good?' I can accept this no problem. Adam and Eve experience evil in that they started to grow old and eventually die. I don't see how a baby needs to experience being abused and killed?? What purpose does that serve? The terrible death that Jesus suffered for us was known by Jesus beforehand. He knew it would happen and he agreed to it and suffered terribly for us to pay the price (I struggle to understand and appreciate this and wonder why God can't just forgive us??) Soldiers going into battle know they may be giving their lives etc. Innocent children don't ask to be murdered......(I've got a baby grandson so I get emotional thinking about how evil man can be, and I'm sure some of that is sickness as opposed to being 'evil' but I can't equate evil or sickness with God).
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 07:54:03 PM
I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.
Cat, do you think a possibility exists along these lines.
God as powerful as he is, knows the end result of what we go through and rather than God (in our perception) thinking up a plan to say, "At this time I need this child to be raped and abused". God grieves knowing that a path to that childs righteousness must include that and God himself has no choice but to allow it in order for us to be more than just some blot on a computer screen, mindless and controlled by himself?
We can look at it a number of ways Cat, and it is tough. Where do we actually move the goal posts to in order to reconcile our thoughts?
Does it actually make you feel better knowing God "should" have not allowed a child to be created so it never had to endure being raped or tortured but went ahead and allowed it anyway?
Or do you entertain the thought that God witnesses child rape and torture and somehow says "Oh my, I didn't mean for that to happen, oops, sorry"?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:23:09 PM
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 07:54:03 PM
I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.
Cat, do you think a possibility exists along these lines.
God as powerful as he is, knows the end result of what we go through and rather than God (in our perception) thinking up a plan to say, "At this time I need this child to be raped and abused". God grieves knowing that a path to that childs righteousness must include that and God himself has no choice but to allow it in order for us to be more than just some blot on a computer screen, mindless and controlled by himself?
We can look at it a number of ways Cat, and it is tough. Where do we actually move the goal posts to in order to reconcile our thoughts?
Does it actually make you feel better knowing God "should" have not allowed a child to be created so it never had to endure being raped or tortured but went ahead and allowed it anyway?
Or do you entertain the thought that God witnesses child rape and torture and somehow says "Oh my, I didn't mean for that to happen, oops, sorry"?
12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. --Luke 19
God has left the planet. He's left us in charge. How are we doing so far?
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 08:31:43 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:23:09 PM
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 07:54:03 PM
I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.
Cat, do you think a possibility exists along these lines.
God as powerful as he is, knows the end result of what we go through and rather than God (in our perception) thinking up a plan to say, "At this time I need this child to be raped and abused". God grieves knowing that a path to that childs righteousness must include that and God himself has no choice but to allow it in order for us to be more than just some blot on a computer screen, mindless and controlled by himself?
We can look at it a number of ways Cat, and it is tough. Where do we actually move the goal posts to in order to reconcile our thoughts?
Does it actually make you feel better knowing God "should" have not allowed a child to be created so it never had to endure being raped or tortured but went ahead and allowed it anyway?
Or do you entertain the thought that God witnesses child rape and torture and somehow says "Oh my, I didn't mean for that to happen, oops, sorry"?
12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
--Luke 19
God has left the planet. He's left us in charge. How are we doing so far?
Well, if He's not here I'm not going to bother looking for him.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:33:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 08:31:43 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:23:09 PM
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 07:54:03 PM
I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.
Cat, do you think a possibility exists along these lines.
God as powerful as he is, knows the end result of what we go through and rather than God (in our perception) thinking up a plan to say, "At this time I need this child to be raped and abused". God grieves knowing that a path to that childs righteousness must include that and God himself has no choice but to allow it in order for us to be more than just some blot on a computer screen, mindless and controlled by himself?
We can look at it a number of ways Cat, and it is tough. Where do we actually move the goal posts to in order to reconcile our thoughts?
Does it actually make you feel better knowing God "should" have not allowed a child to be created so it never had to endure being raped or tortured but went ahead and allowed it anyway?
Or do you entertain the thought that God witnesses child rape and torture and somehow says "Oh my, I didn't mean for that to happen, oops, sorry"?
12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
--Luke 19
God has left the planet. He's left us in charge. How are we doing so far?
Well, if He's not here I'm not going to bother looking for him.
15And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. --Luke 19
What if I couldn't care less about having authority over 10 cities?
I guess since you think God left the planet you are not aware.
Ro 8:28 Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose.
Gotta love pet doctrines .
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:23:09 PM
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 07:54:03 PM
I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.
Cat, do you think a possibility exists along these lines.
God as powerful as he is, knows the end result of what we go through and rather than God (in our perception) thinking up a plan to say, "At this time I need this child to be raped and abused". God grieves knowing that a path to that childs righteousness must include that and God himself has no choice but to allow it in order for us to be more than just some blot on a computer screen, mindless and controlled by himself?
We can look at it a number of ways Cat, and it is tough. Where do we actually move the goal posts to in order to reconcile our thoughts?
Does it actually make you feel better knowing God "should" have not allowed a child to be created so it never had to endure being raped or tortured but went ahead and allowed it anyway?
Or do you entertain the thought that God witnesses child rape and torture and somehow says "Oh my, I didn't mean for that to happen, oops, sorry"?
I'm going to step over the fence just a sec and throw this out there. I'm not so sure what happened in Genesis 6 was just about men being bad. I tend to think that there was a spiritual perversion that took place that God stepped in and put a stop to it. I think Sodom and Gomorah are similar attempts of spiritual perversion transpiring rather than just men being ungodly. And I also think that there's some spiritual mixture taking place in the perversions of fleshly pleasures when dealing with child molestation, beastiality, incest as well as other areas where spirit perverts flesh beyond the seemingly normal level of darkness.
I really don't know where to begin to explain why I feel this way so I'm not going to try to clarify or defend. But there are sins that lead to death and sins that don't. I'm wondering if the things being mentioned here about "how can this be part of God's purpose" would fall under that category of sin that has led to death.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:39:36 PM
What if I couldn't care less about having authority over 10 cities?
I guess since you think God left the planet you are not aware.
Ro 8:28 Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose.
5But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
--John 16
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 24, 2009, 07:22:25 PM
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 10:53:48 AM
I can even accept that He planned this (temporary) seperation from Him whilst working out His plan of reconciliation and perfection through His Son. I can't understand how certain types of evil (child abuse etc) can be part of this plan.
Neither can I. But I don't understand anything about His plan anyway. Why 'insert' evil with the goal of removing it?
Why not just create 15 billion saints in Heaven?
Perhaps that is what He is doing?
We just don't realize it or understand it all because He is not finished yet. :Sparkletooth:
Legoman
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 08:43:20 PM
Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:
Paul, I cannot begin to understand how God can observe the evil that goes on and why He doesn't just blot it out like He did in Noah's day. This is part of the problem of evil that I don't think we will understand in this life. He does allow it, but to say He causes it (stuff like stealing, torturing, adultery) is so 'wicked' is the word that springs to mind. I'd say that this view of God 'purposing' evil is moving the goal posts millions of miles to accommodate this 'explanation' of evil. The evil world we live in is used by God to accomplish HIs will. He uses fallen man and his wicked ways to carry out judgments. He uses natural means ie flood, fire and brimstone. He doesn't use child abuse, adultery, orgies, etc to accomplish His plan. These things delay His plan but don't thwart it. I recently debated on an atheist forum and really got to understand the logic and reasonings behind a lot of what makes some people reject the belief in a God etc. I worry that when we try to use logic to explain evil, free will, etc, we may be falling into the same trap as these atheists. Our reasonings seem to make perfect sense from our view point but in the grander scheme of things we are probably missing many vital ingredients to really make the equations 'work out'. The bible is full of admonitions to 'choose' to serve God. God gets angry at evil. This would be absolutely a waste of time if all is exactly as God wants it. Why have a Bible at all? Lets just live our lives how they are set to be. We can't change diddly squat. Why bother? I believe by God's spirit, we can ask God to overcome our weak flesh, and help us to change the course of our lives so we can serve God and obey Him. '' Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.'' Why bother reasoning if we are 'machines' that have our dials ever set?
Nathan, thanks for your reply. I can see your dilema here.
Molly, thanks for the scriptures. :happygrin:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:47:29 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 08:43:20 PM
Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:
God knows what will happen before it happens. We are in a time frame going through the Ages as He works out His Plan of Salvation.
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 08:48:50 PM
This would be absolutely a waste of time if all is exactly as God wants it.
Maybe, but what determines that the above question is not just your own reasoning as well. Where is the line drawn to determine that we have contemplated evil "correctly"?
If we are to teach that difference, what is it?
Quote from: CatWe can't change diddly squat. Why bother?
Who told you that?
Matthew 25:21
His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 08:50:25 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:47:29 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 08:43:20 PM
Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:
God knows what will happen before it happens. We are in a time frame going through the Ages as He works out His Plan of Salvation.
ok, but lets pay attention to wording "stated time" who stated it to begin with?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:47:29 PM
Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:
Yes, and this is the season and time of our Lord of whom we are servants, representatives, agents, and ambassadors.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. --Luke 4
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 08:58:07 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:47:29 PM
Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:
Yes, and this is the season and time of our Lord of whom we are representatives, agents, and ambassadors.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
--Luke 4
2Th 2:11 And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:59:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 08:58:07 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 08:47:29 PM
Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:
Yes, and this is the season and time of our Lord of whom we are representatives, agents, and ambassadors.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
--Luke 4
2Th 2:11 And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
Yes, but what happens before that?
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. --2Th 2
All a part of the plan I suppose?
Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul? Yet Paul says He does that in which he does not want to do. Why does he say that? If we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things. Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did? Paul was in charge of removing Sin and doing the things he did not want to do, but did them anyway? Doesn't sound like he did such a great job either.
Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.
What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him? If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.
Hi Molly, I'm not saying we can't change anything. This is the reasoning behind L Ray Smith's beliefs it seems.
Hi Paul, you're quite right. My reasoning may be as dodgy as anybody elses. I have to go with what my reasoning or understanding of the Bible tells me. It is full of things to suggest we can choose (I know we can't all choose so easily or freely due to mental ability, mental illness, etc) to 'resist the devil and he will flee'. There would only be a purpose to a tester, if you can actually be tested. If you are going to respond with a pre set action, then it wasn't really a test, so why 'create' an adversery in the first place?
I draw the line with evil by leaving it firmly at the door of 'free will'. It's a 'thing' that need not exist and won't exist in the future, but is existing now in order that we will understand it's corruptive, killing power and ultimately can choose to do God's will without 'wondering if our way would be ok'. We will know that God's ways are ALWAYS the best ways.
Ec 3:1 and the following verses are showing how there are cyles of life, bad things and good things. Youngs says: 'To everything -- a season, and a time to every delight under the heavens':
Are you saying that God planned 9/11 to the exact minute because it was His will? I would say He knew 9/11 would happen but it wasn't His will. Our wills can be in opposition to God's but that doesn't mean He isn't in overall control.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:12:16 PM
All a part of the plan I suppose?
Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul? Yet Paul says He does that in which he does not want to do. Why does he say that? I we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things. Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?
Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.
What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him? If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.
Why does everyone stop reading in Romans 7?
Doesn't anyone ever make it to Romans 8?
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. --Rom 8
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 09:15:17 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:12:16 PM
All a part of the plan I suppose?
Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul? Yet Paul says He does that in which he does not want to do. Why does he say that? I we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things. Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?
Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.
What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him? If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.
Why does everyone stop reading in Romans 7?
Doesn't anyone ever make it to Romans 8?
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--Rom 8
So what was Pauls excuse?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:20:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 09:15:17 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:12:16 PM
All a part of the plan I suppose?
Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul? Yet Paul says He does that in which he does not want to do. Why does he say that? I we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things. Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?
Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.
What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him? If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.
Why does everyone stop reading in Romans 7?
Doesn't anyone ever make it to Romans 8?
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--Rom 8
So what was Pauls excuse?
I don't understand the question.
But even in Romans 7, Paul ends by thanking God for what was done by the Lord Jesus.
Because there is a before and after to this story, you know, unless you want to forget the cross.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:12:16 PM
All a part of the plan I suppose?
Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul? Yet Paul says He does that in which he does not want to do. Why does he say that? If we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things. Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did? Paul was in charge of removing Sin and doing the things he did not want to do, but did them anyway? Doesn't sound like he did such a great job either.
We are NOT in control of being good or bad, not in an absolute sense. We can control to some extent how good or how bad we are. Paul was not a complete failure. He did do the will of God it seems most of the time. You only have to read his epistles to see this. Of course he 'sinned' still. We all do and will until perfection comes.
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 09:23:40 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:20:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 09:15:17 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:12:16 PM
All a part of the plan I suppose?
Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul? Yet Paul says He does that in which he does not want to do. Why does he say that? I we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things. Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?
Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.
What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him? If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.
Why does everyone stop reading in Romans 7?
Doesn't anyone ever make it to Romans 8?
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--Rom 8
So what was Pauls excuse?
I don't understand the question.
But even in Romans 7, Paul ends by thanking God for what was done by the Lord Jesus.
Because there is a before and after to this story, you know, unless you want to forget the cross.
Not forgetting anything your ignoring the human condition as if it can be avoided through your admonitions of "God has left us in charge" "how are we doing so far".
The whole point is that DESPITE the cross Paul still dealt with "sin within him" but your avoiding that altogther. Paul thanks the work of the cross, but why?
Why thank something while sin was still in him? You imply that all we have to do is receive and we will change the world, yet Paul did not receive what you seem to claim everyone can. Your scripture quoting doesn't answer anything.
So, my point is why people try to imply that things can happen that did not even happen to those we are so adamantly told to look to in the bible?
If Paul missed it what good are his words?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:29:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 09:23:40 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:20:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 09:15:17 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:12:16 PM
All a part of the plan I suppose?
Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul? Yet Paul says He does that in which he does not want to do. Why does he say that? I we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things. Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?
Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.
What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him? If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.
Why does everyone stop reading in Romans 7?
Doesn't anyone ever make it to Romans 8?
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--Rom 8
So what was Pauls excuse?
I don't understand the question.
But even in Romans 7, Paul ends by thanking God for what was done by the Lord Jesus.
Because there is a before and after to this story, you know, unless you want to forget the cross.
Not forgetting anything your ignoring the human condition as if it can be avoided through your admonitions of "God has left us in charge" "how are we doing so far".
The whole point is that DESPITE the cross Paul still dealt with "sin within him" but your avoiding that altogther. Paul thanks the work of the cross, but why?
Why thank something while sin was still in him? You imply that all we have to do is receive and we will change the world, yet Paul did not receive what you seem to claim everyone can. Your scripture quoting doesn't answer anything.
So, my point is why people try to imply that things can happen that did not even happen to those we are so adamantly told to look to in the bible?
If Paul missed it what good are his words?
Who says Paul missed anything?
Paul tells us himself --
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. So stay in Christ Jesus and walk in the Spirit, and there will be no condemnation.
Jesus himself tells us this--abide in me--
John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.Jesus tells those he heals--Go and sin no more. Why would he say that if it were not possible?
1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.And, PS, Paul did change the world.
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 07:54:03 PM
Hi Legoman, you said: 'it was not God's direct purpose' - this is what I have been trying to convey. God knew evil would have to be part of His plan for a limited time and He uses 'evil' to accomplish His judgments etc (He doesn't use things like rape, abuse etc). The evils mankind and angels have 'created' are not directly intended by God, but He knows that every conceivable type of evil will be 'tried' if you like.
A lot of Ray Smith's article combines UR and eternal torment in with the 'evil' stuff and this mixes things up somewhat. I have no problem with the idea of UR and hope it is true but I'm not fully convinced as yet. I already know for sure there is no literal hell and hell's flames. These are not issues for me. The big issue at the minute is understanding where you guys come from with this 'evil' stuff. I'm not sure why only Universalists have come to this conclusion, although I'm sure not all of you believe this.
The reason universalists have come to this conclusion (at least I have anyway) is because they have read it in the bible.
When reading Ray's stuff, you have to go and double check everything he says in the scripture. In one of your post's you said "isn't EVERYTHING (according to Ray Smith) meant to be purposed by God?" This is not according to Ray Smith - he doesn't just make this stuff up out of his head you know. It actually says this in the bible:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the
purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:There are many other verses that confirm this fact - some of which I posted before (ie. Isa 46:10-11, 2 Cor 5:18, etc). So ask yourself this. Do you believe you have been predestined according to God's purpose? Do you believe everything is according to the purpose of Him (God) who works all things after the counsel of His (God's) will? Because that is what the scriptures say. Now ask yourself this: what would "all things" include in the above verse? Good? Evil? How about what you had for breakfast, where you were go to work, and where you live?
How about this: Do you believe God works all things after the counsel of OUR FREE WILL? No that is not what the scripture says. Everything is worked after the counsel of GOD'S WILL!
Cat, I noticed in several of your posts that you believe we have free will. I recommend you read Ray's papers on free will (side note: with all of Ray's stuff, you should read it several times, and look up all the scriptures - it took me many months of study to begin to comprehend it all).
Anyway here is my take on it, which I believe is 100% supported by the scriptures. We absolutely do not have free will. However we do make choices, and we do the things we do. No one FORCES us to do anything. Now we may be influenced or caused to do some things, but we
always do it ourself of our own will. (Mind you it is not a free will).
Here is part of the problem of understanding this. When someone says we don't have free will, the automatic reaction seems to be then we must be "machines" or "robots" or "puppets", and that doesn't make sense so it cannot be. Hmm - what do the scriptures say? Well we already know that God works everything according to whose will? Oh yeah: HIS OWN WILL. Our will doesn't enter into it.
Are we a robot? In many ways there are similarities. We respond to input and can make choices based on that input, just like a robot or computer can. But we are superior to a robot or computer in many ways. We can learn. We can feel emotion. We can love! It is likely no human will ever make a robot that can compare to a human.
However - here is the real humbling part - what do the scriptures call us? Are we called robots? Or puppets? NO. We are actually something much lower than any of those creations.
WE ARE CALLED CLAY! God molds us and breaks us and molds us again as He sees fit. We cannot do anything by ourself anymore than a lump of clay can do by itself! Read all of Romans 9 and see what you think.
So how does evil fit into this? Is God running around all day making some people rob banks and murder each other, while making others go to work and have boring lives? Not exactly.
Ever wonder why you are the way you are? Take me for instance: Why do I go to work?
I have a pretty decent job that I don't mind doing and it pays pretty well so I can support my family.
But how did I get that job? Well I went to university and got decent grades.
But why did I go to university? Well I had decent grades in high school (but sucked at sports) and got a scholarship.
But why did I get good grades in high school? Well my parents raised me a certain way and certain subjects (math/computers) came naturally which helped me with all my studies.
But why was I good at math/computers? Well it was my own free will. NOT! (Sorry had to throw that in there :winkgrin:)
The real answer of why I am here today is that God gave me certain abilities & gifts, he chose my parents, where I would live, and the circumstances I would endure. These all shaped my life (like the potter molding clay) which led me to the point I am at right now in my life. Its all by God's grace, and I am thankful for what he has given me.
Now because of my experiences, gifts, and character, etc. I would never consider robbing a bank (or other nefarious crimes).
But what about someone else? Why does a bank robber rob a bank? Does God FORCE him to do this evil? Not exactly. So why does he rob a bank? Perhaps he is lazy. Perhaps he lusts after some easy money. Perhaps he had a poor childhood. Perhaps he had bad parents. Perhaps he had an addiction. The list could go on and on... but there is some reason that CAUSED him to rob a bank. Was it his free will? Well just like in my life, NO! And again it is only by God's grace! Think about that next time you need some humbling. It is only by God's grace that you are not a bank robber, or a murderer, or worse...
We all make choices and do the things we do, because of some REASON or CAUSE. If you trace the causes back far enough, you will see the ultimate cause of everything is God. Even with the case of the bank robber - you might say it was the lusts of his own heart that caused him to rob that bank. BUT who put those lusts in his heart? Who designed his heart - was it not God? But then you might say it was Satan who tempted his heart. But wait - who created Satan? God! It always comes back to God!
And Eph 1:11 confirms it: God is operating ALL according to his purpose.
Sorry that was so long - this topic is so broad we could write an encyclopedia about it. Never mind Ray Smith already has :laughing7: - just read his stuff a few times...
Legoman
Not having condemnation is not equal to Paul not having sin within him.
Where does it say that Pauls sin left him and what good are his words if I can remove sin from myself but the greatest saint didn't and didn't bother to tell anyone how to do it?
Have you done it Molly, are you sinless?
Maybe the point is that we can change the world despite our sin.
Make a difference any place we can. And if we still sin so what?
Go and sin no more is not about sinless perfection. It is recognizing when Jesus touches us and frees us, there is no reason to go back to it. In fact we will have knowledge that will prevent it.
The prostitute had no reason to keep doing it. I have no reason to start smoking again.
But the fact that I still deal with things is not something in my control at this time.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:46:10 PM
Not having condemnation is not equal to Paul not having sin within him.
Where does it say that Pauls sin left him and what good are his words if I can remove sin from myself but the greatest saint didn't and didn't bother to tell anyone how to do it?
Have you done it Molly, are you sinless?
20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
--Phil 1
1 Corinthians 4:1
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
The other issue is if the Cross is in place to impart that to everyone all at the same time, or if scripture harmonizes to see that each person has their day of that realization at the time of Gods choosing and the cross is a part of that timing.
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2009, 09:55:17 PM
20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 09:50:23 PM
Maybe the point is that we can change the world despite our sin.
Make a difference any place we can. And if we still sin so what?
Go and sin no more is not about sinless perfection. It is recognizing when Jesus touches us and frees us, there is no reason to go back to it. In fact we will have knowledge that will prevent it.
The prostitute had no reason to keep doing it. I have no reason to start smoking again.
But the fact that I still deal with things is not something in my control at this time.
:thumbsup:
If we are walking in the Way, we are making progress, going from here to there.
It is called a road for a reason, and a road always starts somewhere and goes somewhere else.
If we are faithful to him, he will be faithful to us.
Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Quote from: Cat on February 24, 2009, 09:14:42 PM
Hi Molly, I'm not saying we can't change anything. This is the reasoning behind L Ray Smith's beliefs it seems.
Hi Paul, you're quite right. My reasoning may be as dodgy as anybody elses. I have to go with what my reasoning or understanding of the Bible tells me. It is full of things to suggest we can choose (I know we can't all choose so easily or freely due to mental ability, mental illness, etc) to 'resist the devil and he will flee'. There would only be a purpose to a tester, if you can actually be tested. If you are going to respond with a pre set action, then it wasn't really a test, so why 'create' an adversery in the first place?
I draw the line with evil by leaving it firmly at the door of 'free will'. It's a 'thing' that need not exist and won't exist in the future, but is existing now in order that we will understand it's corruptive, killing power and ultimately can choose to do God's will without 'wondering if our way would be ok'. We will know that God's ways are ALWAYS the best ways.
Ec 3:1 and the following verses are showing how there are cyles of life, bad things and good things. Youngs says: 'To everything -- a season, and a time to every delight under the heavens':
Are you saying that God planned 9/11 to the exact minute because it was His will? I would say He knew 9/11 would happen but it wasn't His will. Our wills can be in opposition to God's but that doesn't mean He isn't in overall control.
Go back and reread WhiteWing's post #57. Here are a few of the scriptures he posted:
Amos 3:6 ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
1 Samuel 15:2-3 So says Jehovah of Hosts, .... go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
God most certainly knew 9/11 would happen, in fact it was part of his plan.
Perhaps the confusion here is distinguishing between God's plan and God's will.
Romans 9:19Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
This verse is asking who has resisted his counsel (his plan). And the implied answer is NO ONE. No one can do anything different than God's plan. This is plan A - there is no plan B.
So YES, God's plan involves evil, war, even people crashing planes into buildings. But is this God's will? No! God's will is that we should love one another and become an image of him.
See the difference between God's plan and his will? His plan is a means to an end - his ultimate will.
Cheers,
Legoman
Quote from: legoman on February 24, 2009, 09:44:38 PM
How about this: Do you believe God works all things after the counsel of OUR FREE WILL? No that is not what the scripture says. Everything is worked after the counsel of GOD'S WILL!
Thats simply taking a stance that it must be one way or another. L, Ray isn't so adamant to use the scriptures that continually admonish us to do good. If God has determined things so strictly then we do not need to be told to do anything. God will make it happen and so it will be.
So then we are left to determine what free will actually is when thats missing the whole boat and arguing for pet doctrines.
If God does not include the liberty he allows for us within the boundaries that do exist in what he works then explain why we even need to be concerned with running the race if it is God who runs it for us? It is God who determines I will be in jail or not, then if I want to go murder people then God determined that too.
What about the person who simply hears this nonsense and does give up? Is that just whatever will be will be?
What kind of a God determines that a person will hear this message and go kill themself because they find no hope in it? Whatever, huh?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 11:07:51 PM
Quote from: legoman on February 24, 2009, 09:44:38 PM
How about this: Do you believe God works all things after the counsel of OUR FREE WILL? No that is not what the scripture says. Everything is worked after the counsel of GOD'S WILL!
Thats simply taking a stance that it must be one way or another. L, Ray isn't so adamant to use the scriptures that continually admonish us to do good. If God has determined things so strictly then we do not need to be told to do anything. God will make it happen and so it will be.
Its God's plan, so He will make it happen. Isaiah 46:10-11 confirms it:
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
He declares it, purposes it, and brings it to pass.
Quote
So then we are left to determine what free will actually is when thats missing the whole boat and arguing for pet doctrines.
If God does not include the liberty he allows for us within the boundaries that do exist in what he works then explain why we even need to be concerned with running the race if it is God who runs it for us? It is God who determines I will be in jail or not, then if I want to go murder people then God determined that too.
Look at it this way. "Why do we need to be concerned with running the race if God determines everything?"
This sounds an awful lot like the argument ETers say regarding UR: "Why did Jesus need to come If God will save everyone anyways?"
And the answer is the same. Its the process that matters. God is imparting an experience to each of us - an experience of good and evil.
We needed a savior to save us, so God sent his son. And likewise, we need to become righteous. This will happen on God's timetable - the few chosen elect first and everyone else later. So part of this is being instructed to run the race in a way that we might win it. Even if we were predetermined to fail, it will be for
God's purpose for us.Quote
What about the person who simply hears this nonsense and does give up? Is that just whatever will be will be?
What kind of a God determines that a person will hear this message and go kill themself because they find no hope in it? Whatever, huh?
Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
Jer 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.
No its not just whatever will be, will be. Its whatever God declares, will be. God imparts to each person their measure of faith:
Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the
measure of faith God has given you.
One will only believe when God opens their eyes, and only if they have faith (which was given by God).
Job 14:5 Man's days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed.
God declares when we will die, and by implication how we will die, so yes that would include suicide, murder, war, etc.
The scriptures seem rather clear on this matter (to me). Its just a question of whether we believe the scriptures or not.
Legoman
Quote from: legoman on February 24, 2009, 11:37:51 PM
The scriptures seem rather clear on this matter (to me). Its just a question of whether we believe the scriptures or not.
My point is that God does "work" all things and part of what he works is our choices and our choices may indeed be limited according to Gods counsel, but they are still there. I think the issue Cat raises is if there is any responsibility on the part of man to work at preventing child rape or is there just nothing we can do about it at all?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 11:47:59 PM
My point is that God does "work" all things and part of what he works is our choices and our choices may indeed be limited according to Gods counsel, but they are still there.
Ah - yes, agreed. I tried to say that in my long post but perhaps it wasn't clear. Even though God works everything for his purpose, and even though that includes our choices, it is still us who makes the choice. The man who is commiting a murder or rape has made a very evil choice, even though the circumstances have influenced and even caused him to make that choice - in his mind, he was the one who chose to do the evil act, and he will be accountable for that (Romans 14:12).
The man is accountable even though it could not have happened any other way. Remember God only has one plan for everything - plan A.
Quote
I think the issue Cat raises is if there is any responsibility on the part of man to work at preventing child rape or is there just nothing we can do about it at all?
Yes of course we should try to prevent evil - God commands us to - it doesn't mean we will always succeed but we must try. That is part of what we are supposed to learn in this life - what is evil, and how do we become free from it so we can be righteous.
Are we responsible for stopping evil? Are we even reponsible for the evil we commit? Ray covers this in one of his papers: Man is accountable, God is responsible.
Man is accountable because (like I said above), it was the man who chose to do his actions. We will all be accountable someday for what we have done, whether good or bad. I believe there will be a lot of shame in that day when we are held accountable, and realize what we have done.
However God takes ultimate responsibility. He is the one who will correct every wrong (through the process of judgement and the lake of fire), and reconcile everyone and every thing with him, and eventually He will wipe away every tear. So the little girl who is brutally murdered, and even her murderer, will be corrected, and both will be reconcilled. Everything will be made right and we will have gained an experience of good and evil so we can be made righteous.
Isaiah 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you.
When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
Cheers,
Legoman
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 24, 2009, 11:47:59 PM
Quote from: legoman on February 24, 2009, 11:37:51 PM
The scriptures seem rather clear on this matter (to me). Its just a question of whether we believe the scriptures or not.
My point is that God does "work" all things and part of what he works is our choices and our choices may indeed be limited according to Gods counsel, but they are still there. I think the issue Cat raises is if there is any responsibility on the part of man to work at preventing child rape or is there just nothing we can do about it at all?
Paul are you playing Devil's advocate?? :mshock:
Let me ask you and Legoman this? (I'll assume a few things if I may, to get my point over) Just as you may have felt in your heart that something was wrong with the doctrine of eternal torment in hell's flames- don't you feel the same UNEASE with the idea that God purposes a child to live a brief few weeks only to be raped and killed? What possible purpose does that serve to God? The child isn't old enough to have learned a lesson? Or was it for the sole purpose of 'teaching' the sick b****** who did it some kind of lesson? Really???? IF they are sick in the head they aint gonna learn any lesson. Sorry I keep using this horrible example but I need to get this point across. I could no longer accept that to be true, than I would accept God tortures people for ever in hell.....
Legoman, I just say your last post. I don't understand how you differentiate between 'choice' and 'freewill'? Why are they not the same?? Or am I not understanding you?
Quote from: Cat on February 25, 2009, 12:09:45 AM
Let me ask you and Legoman this? (I'll assume a few things if I may, to get my point over) Just as you may have felt in your heart that something was wrong with the doctrine of eternal torment in hell's flames- don't you feel the same UNEASE with the idea that God purposes a child to live a brief few weeks only to be raped and killed? What possible purpose does that serve to God? The child isn't old enough to have learned a lesson? Or was it for the sole purpose of 'teaching' the sick b****** who did it some kind of lesson? Really???? IF they are sick in the head they aint gonna learn any lesson. Sorry I keep using this horrible example but I need to get this point across. I could no longer accept that to be true, than I would accept God tortures people for ever in hell.....
Don't get me wrong Cat, I totally get where you are coming from. The torture and murder of a young child is totally senseless and seems to serve no purpose. There are some sick things that happen out there and I sometimes wonder why - I have a 4 year old daughter myself and try not to think about what could happen too much.
When I still believed in eternal torment, it even made less sense as I would wonder if the child was also going to hell... With the truth of UR there is some sense of purpose as I know God will reconcile all and wipe away every tear eventually.
Now as to the possible purpose: I really have no idea - I am not God... perhaps it is to teach the SICK b****** some lesson down the line that will really humble him and show the glory of God. I don't really know - God works in mysterious ways but we know that it is all ultimately for our good.
Again it all comes down to God's sovereignty:
- if God is sovereign
- if God creates evil
- if God causes wars and disease
- if God infact works everything according to his will
Then my logical mind (which is good at the math/computer stuff) can only come to the conclusion, that somehow, for some reason, God has a purpose for every evil act, even the evil act you mentioned. I don't understand it, but I have faith there is a purpose for it. It almost brings comfort to know there is some sense to all the evil in this world.
Hope that helps...
Legoman
Quote from: Cat on February 25, 2009, 12:09:45 AM
Legoman, I just say your last post. I don't understand how you differentiate between 'choice' and 'freewill'? Why are they not the same?? Or am I not understanding you?
A choice is just a selection between alternatives. Even computers make choices, based on programming and input, and no one claims they have free will.
Here is the definition of free will: Making a choice that is
unconstrained by external causes (such as outside influence, divine intervention, etc).
What I believe we really have is an
influenced will: we make choices that are influenced (constrained) by external causes.
Read Ray's series on free will, it is explained there well.
Very interesting. I will read it tomorrow, time permitting and I'll come back to you. I must go to bed. I'm so tired. Night night.....Thanks for your input.
Quote from: Cat on February 25, 2009, 12:31:27 AM
Very interesting. I will read it tomorrow, time permitting and I'll come back to you. I must go to bed. I'm so tired. Night night.....Thanks for your input.
Take care Cat, and take some time to meditate and pray on this all. Its a tough subject (life-changing I would say), and only God can really show it to you.
Legoman
Quote from: legoman on February 25, 2009, 12:26:34 AM
Even computers make choices, based on programming and input
Actually a computer does not make a choice, but to do what the programming and input determine.
Even artificial intelligence is only an illusion and the computer cannot do anything apart from the intention of the programming, it makes no choice it operates at a predefined level the choices are made for it based soley on the program that is written.
If you write a defective program for a computer did it then make a bad choice or did it only operate in a manner dependant upon exactly what you wrote for it to do?
Do you then encourage the computer to run a good race?
Quote from: Cat on February 25, 2009, 12:09:45 AMSorry I keep using this horrible example but I need to get this point across. I could no longer accept that to be true, than I would accept God tortures people for ever in hell.....
What's the alternative Cat?
It seems to me that one of these must be true:
1. God is working all things after the counsel of His own will, including this kind of evil that we can not fathom
2. God is allowing these things to occur -- in which case He is equally culpable, since He could stop them
3. God is impotent to stop them
4. There is no God
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 25, 2009, 12:37:47 AMActually a computer does not make a choice, but to do what the programming and input determine.
It makes a choice under the definition given by Legoman... it's just a rather mindless choice compared to the choices we make. Also, God determined beforehand which choice pharoah would make. It was still a choice.
Quote from: bobf on February 25, 2009, 12:48:06 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 25, 2009, 12:37:47 AMActually a computer does not make a choice, but to do what the programming and input determine.
It makes a choice under the definition given by Legoman... it's just a rather mindless choice compared to the choices we make. Also, God determined beforehand which choice pharoah would make. It was still a choice.
Legomans definition is not at issue, scripture is.
So do you think encouraging a computer means anything and how does that relate to Gods encouragement for us in the same manner?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 25, 2009, 01:06:50 AM
Legomans definition is not at issue, scripture is.
So do you think encouraging a computer means anything and how does that relate to Gods encouragement for us in the same manner?
I don't like the computer analogy that much either, so I won't prolong it. It raises more issues than it solves. We do not make choices like computers so it's not a very helpful analogy (we have a mind, computers don't). But it does serve to illustrate that making a choice involves selecting from alternatives using our minds. There is no requirement that our choices be free from divine influence and pressure. In contrast, some definitions of free will require that our choices be free from divine influence andr pressure. So that is a difference between making choices and having a free will. Making choices is scritpural, but that having a free will (under that defintition) is not scriptural.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 25, 2009, 12:37:47 AM
Quote from: legoman on February 25, 2009, 12:26:34 AM
Even computers make choices, based on programming and input
Actually a computer does not make a choice, but to do what the programming and input determine.
Well then we disagree here :bigGrin:
A computer does make a choice based on its programming AND its input.
If I have a program that receives some input that you type on the keyboard, and then based on that input
decides to display one screen of information or a different screen of information - then the computer has madr a simple choice. Granted it could only choose between what it has been programmed to choose - but the programmer did give it the ability to choose based on the input.
Quote
Even artificial intelligence is only an illusion and the computer cannot do anything apart from the intention of the programming, it makes no choice it operates at a predefined level the choices are made for it based soley on the program that is written.
Agreed, AI is neither artificial nor intelligent, it is just a really complicated program that makes a lot of decisions that give the appearance of intelligence.
Quote
If you write a defective program for a computer did it then make a bad choice or did it only operate in a manner dependant upon exactly what you wrote for it to do?
There are no bugs, only features :winkgrin: (If you are a software developer you will get this joke).
Anyway, no, if there was a bug in the program, that is not a "choice". The choice comes about as a result of the programming (whether its buggy or not) AND the input.
Quote
Do you then encourage the computer to run a good race?
Now that's just silly... we would only do that if the computer had been programmed to understand what it means to "run a good race".
--
In a lot of ways, we humans are nothing more than a bunch of programming (our God-given abilities, experiences, what we have learned, etc) taking in a bunch of input (our environment, circumstances), and then making a choice.
I know its not a great analogy... the main difference between us and a computer is that we are self-aware - although some might even debate that our "self-awareness" is just a bunch of more really complicated programming.
Legoman
Hi guys. Good points, possibilities, summaries and conclusions. It would be good if we could veer this a bit toward the OP if we could, before others start to jump in and this turns into either a free will or divinely determined, free-for-all :laughing7:. Apologies, doin' my job :angry1:. Thanks :thumbsup:.
No problem jabcat.
I was just thinking on Cat's point again about what the purpose of the evil in the world is, especially some of the really evil stuff.
Perhaps it is so we will learn to trust God - and I mean really trust God. If God is really in control of everything, and God is good, then we should completely completely trust him that everything will in fact eventually work out for the good of all... even when the really bad stuff comes our way. I can't wait for that moment when God is wiping away every tear, but I guess I will have to.
Hmm, thats still not on-topic for the original post :winkgrin: so how about this: God is the aionios God - he is the God of the ages, all the ages, including this age, right now, even this moment as you are reading this post. God is working it all out on his timeline through the ages, and its going to be glorious when the ages are done!
Legoman
Understood, difficult topics for sure, ones I personally contend with and have my own opinions and questions on...however, as you probably know, it's been deemed as too divisive a topic within the body here for us to be able to dwell on. I like your ending summary, thanks :2thumbs:.
Quote from: jabcat on February 25, 2009, 02:04:17 AM
Understood, difficult topics for sure, ones I personally contend with and have my own opinions and questions on...however, as you probably know, it's been deemed as too divisive a topic within the body here for us to be able to dwell on. I like your ending summary, thanks :2thumbs:.
I was going to suggest starting up a new thread to carry on debating these issues but your above comment is worrying me. Are you saying we can't carry on debating these difficult things? I need to get clear on this and if I can't sort it out here, I don't know where I will sort it out. We are debating scripture and our understanding of it. We are making sure of things and being like the Bereans.... :dontknow:
Hi Cat...I've copied and pasted a part of a post by the Administrator, Martin that addresses this issue. Based on history at the forum, the free will/sovereignty issue falls in this category, as does actual debating as well. Obviously discussion is encouraged, as this is a discussion forum :bigGrin:, but as the FW/Sov issue has been a major problem, so has allowing discussions to escalate to outright debating; which then has become arguing, insulting, and mud-slinging. My opinion is, you particular participants in this discussion were all pleasant, respectful, etc. However, as a mod and knowing the guidelines in which we are operating, it was my opinion that we were teetering on entering into territory that is off-limits for this forum.
Please note in Martin's comments his statement about "approaching the fire with gas"...history here says we just have not been able to go deeply into this particular discussion without it becoming actually quite nasty. And it's been decided we're just not going to go there, or even let it approach that. Believe it or not, I actually watched the conversation a bit, restraining myself, letting you guys have some say (as you were handling it well), but suspecting we would be coming to a pretty quick cutting off point. Because I'm not kidding...my guess is about 5 or 10 more posts and perhaps less than 24 hours and we would already have some tension going on as others joined in, things heated up, and the dividing lines began to be drawn. And again, it's been decided we're just not going to allow that to happen, with the preventative measure of cutting it off when we're ankle deep as opposed to waiting until we're drowning. Then there's all kinds of messes to clean up :sigh:. If everyone would handle it like you guys were, we'd be fine. But history has shown us that's not what happens. So we've encouraged folks who specifically wish to continue a particular such topic to use the private messaging section where you can discuss as much and as long as you like, including with several different participants if so desired.
Martin's notes:
Some moderation decisions will be made because of content and the limited, narrow purpose of this forum, while other things may find censorship simply because of the past history of this forum where for whatever reason it wound up being a sore spot with causing a whole lot of unnecessary strife that we wish to avoid... the purpose of the forum is a straight and narrow purpose and debate and strife isn't a part of our focus. So, if for whatever reason it's knowingly or unknowingly the canister of gasoline approaching the fire we have going around here, then we will clamp down on saying not to start pouring... Such moderation would never be meant as a personal attack, but would be meant to keep things on track with the purpose of the forum and an avoidance of explosions around here.
Moderation will be biased towards tone/attitude, content in keeping with the purpose/agenda of the forum as laid out by Gary, and previous history where something just kept exploding in our faces once upon a time and we're simply not going to go there again in order to keep the peace. Please abide by all moderation decisions or find another forum to post on. Thank you!
Also, try to remember that the Tentmaker Forum is owned by Tentmaker Ministries and the final word on the very existence of the boards lies with Gary Amirault, the site owner. Administrators of the Forum are appointed by him and Administrators and Moderators in submission to the New Testament and to their understanding of Gary's wishes for the boards must have the final word regarding what's posted on the boards, as is the case with nearly all of the forums that you would ever find on the internet that, posted rules or not, someone somewhere has a final word about this or that.
....thefinal word on any additional tabboos must be at the discretion of the Administrator and Moderators as additional things come up that it becomes necessary to address in keeping with the spirit/unity/atmosphere/direction that's being maintained and their best understanding of Gary Amirault's wishes.--end quote
Please let me know if I can help in any way. Any honest searching needs to be responded to, when possible on the boards, if not, then by PM, or even by setting up a private thread with the mods.
God's blessing, and please don't hesitate to contact me or anyone else. James.
Thanks for that James. It has explained things for me. It's a shame it has to come to this but I understand. I would like to continue this study with Legoman, and the others and so will use the private message system. Maybe we can discuss things on MSN. We'll see. God Bless.
You're very welcome. As I said, I have my own Q's, leanings/points of view on this, and any mod decision such as this particular one should not be taken as a personal statement of a mod's belief or preference, but as in keeping with the direction of the forum. In fact, there's differences of understanding and opinions on this topic within the admin/mod group, but Martin and the mods (sounds like some kind of crazy 60's band) have worked together, along with Gary's wishes on how things will be handled. Thanks for understanding, James.
Hi jabcat,
What is the mod perspective on discussing the purpose of evil? I know it is sometimes hard to discuss that without getting into sovereignty of God issues - but is discussing the purpose of evil here ok, as long as we don't get into the free will/sovereignty stuff too much? Or should we just take that to PM as well?
Thanks for your help on this jabcat, I have seen what happens on other boards when the free will debates go too far... it can get ugly, but at least here we all (somewhat at least) believe in UR so personally (for me) everything makes a lot more sense at least :bigGrin:
Cat, feel free to PM me if you want.
Cheers,
Legoman
Hello. I think I'll ask Martin if he'll address that one...I agree it seems it should be something that could be discussed, but I also agree that it's likely a pretty straight road right back into that other debate. I'll ask, thanks, God's blessing, James.
Hoping not to regret this, but I'd honestly say "go for it, and if it starts getting heated then we can shut it down and/or take every step along the way short of that, or that would lead to that, depending on the outcome." In other words, there are subjects that you've sorta gotta shut 'er down within half a dozen posts and other topics where things honestly go pretty smoothly for two or three (or even four) pages of posts, but if they're allowed to wander much further, then that's when everybody gets their feelings hurt, gets mad about something, etc., etc., etc., or somebody that hasn't been here in months comes with the can of gasoline. :icon_jokercolor:
Some folks seem to never be here, unless there's a particular topic they want to fan the flames a few feet higher on. When a topic's sorta gone cold for weeks/months, sometimes a nice small flame gets everybody the warmth they were needing, but when the flame gets a little high, then that's when we're treating folks for second and third degree burns, throwing robes on folks whose clothes got burned off while they were starting to relax into the thread, etc. I will say up front that a verse or two from Isaiah and a verse or two from Romans isn't the least bit conclusive as far as I'm concerned 'cause my interpretation of said verses tends to consistently be the diametric opposite of what many folks will be all too ready to relegate to my heavenly Father's intentions.
But I am genuinely interested in this topic being restarted if it's got fresh material to consider besides a verse or two from Isaiah, Romans, and Ecclesiastes that from my perspective always wind up being taken horribly out of context. I'm not saying that folks have to agree with 100% of the way that I'd see it, but I genuinely hope that if anyone restarts that topic that there's a little more Scripture that comes into it besides the half dozen verses that everybody knows that somehow, someway winds up turning it consistently into a stalemate rather than any genuine increase in understanding. I don't want to see this turn into a debate on the boards, but I ALWAYS genuinely welcome a real increase in perspective coming with additional material being looked at on the subject that hasn't usually thus far come up along these lines. I may wind up saying what I've always said on the subject, but maybe if it's in response to completely different verses coming up then maybe folks will see where I'm coming from, or maybe folks will see where Tony N is coming from, or maybe folks will see where WillieH is coming from if he wanders back for a peak at what's going on, (his health and time permitting,) et. al.
I want to see Father's consistency with Himself and with His redemptive purposes and with the wisdom that He's made Himself to us in Christ really, really brought out. Since we're to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, and we're to be imitators of Him in every detail according to Jesus, St. Paul, St. John, and other New Testament contributors, then how does such and such an insight translate into what I'm supposed to be doing to be a positive influence on my relatives, the news media, and the nations being discipled? Many things that I've heard brought out on this topic genuinely seem to validate persecution over opinions, Crusades, Inquisitions, etc., because of the "imitate Him" part of Matthew's Gospel, John's Gospel, 1Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians 3:17, 1John, etc., etc. And if any of what comes up is what's come up before on the topic, I genuinely want to see how that translates into wisdom being justified of her children, our being conformed to the image of His dear Son, etc.
I really want to see the topic started if it can successfully go there rather than become a tit-for-tat:
Quotepost #1: To the present day God is still the source of all evil things happening in the world;
post #2: No He's not!
Post #3: Yes He is, here's a single verse from Isaiah and a couple from Romans divorced of their historical, prophetic, and Biblical doctrinal contexts.
Post #4: Your god is my devil!!
Post #5: Stop implying there's free will to go to the bathroom without God's permission 'cause there ain't no such thing as free will, therefore if you murdered your wife God was behind that too!!!
Post #6: You're twisting the Scriptures
Post #7: No, you're twisting the Scriptures, Dr Shipwreck!
If it turns into the aforementioned parody, then the topic likely won't go into a second page of posts, and probably won't likely even finish one page of posts. That's what previous discussions on the subject have sorta looked like, unfortunately. :sigh:
Quote.....or somebody that hasn't been here in months comes with the can of gasoline.
cant see that happening thesedays M, to darn expensive :icon_jokercolor:
:icon_flower:
Yeah, but some fires are worth the money to see. :happy3:
:thumbsup:
Isa 37:19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they [were] no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 26, 2009, 05:32:38 PM
Yeah, but some fires are worth the money to see. :happy3:
Some fires are free. And eternal. :winkgrin:
I've read this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2853.0 and was wondering if there are any others on here discussing the topic of evil? Once I've clarified everyone's 'understandings' of evil I can hopefully offer a scripture-based explanation to clearly show that God is NOT the originator of every evil act or indeed every act of His creation. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Cat on February 27, 2009, 11:03:56 AM
I've read this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2853.0 and was wondering if there are any others on here discussing the topic of evil? Once I've clarified everyone's 'understandings' of evil I can hopefully offer a scripture-based explanation to clearly show that God is NOT the originator of every evil act or indeed every act of His creation. :bigGrin:
Hi Cat,
Just use the search function. If you go into advanced search you can search topic titles only. Here are a few more threads I found that have a good variety of viewpoints:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3502.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2858.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=202.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1495.0
I will be interested in what you come up with and if you can show that God is not the originator of every act (evil or not) of his creation. :bigGrin:
Ultimately it must all be of God at some point... since he is the creator. I think it helps if we can distinguish between God directly causing something, and God indirectly causing something. God may not directly cause of everything, but indirectly isn't he the cause of everything? And if you are God (all-powerful, omniscient, all-knowing) is there really a difference between "directly" or "indirectly" causing something to happen?
Just some things to think about...
Legoman
This is as good a place as any to throw this out to you guys . . . I just finished reading the book "The Shack" about a half hour ago (it's why I haven't been posting much lately) and this subject is so perfectly touched on . .as are many others throughout the book. I highly suggest . .strongly suggest . . . get your hands on a couple copies of this . ..one for you . . and after you've read it, you'll be glad you have other copies to hand out . ..also . . .read it with a pen. It's supposedly fiction, but there are so many awesome revelational tidbits in the thing . . oh, and make sure you read it with a box of tissues . . .you'll need them . .more than once . . . best book I've ever read.
The storyline is all around a guy's little girl being abducted and murdered . . . so the question "how can God allow such evil to exitst" comes up pretty strongly in it.
Did I mention it's a great book?
:cloud9: Well, since you all brought it up.......a few weeks ago God gave me something else regarding all that. He showed me this as I was driving; He knows I learn best from "pictures", LOL.
If our life's progression of events were as if we were driving, we are driving, bound IN time, choosing the turns we make in life's events.
God, on the other hand, is NOT bound in time, and is watching the whole thing from beginning to end. So He therefore has the capacity to "go ahead of us" and change the road, put up roadblocks, put circumstances in our way to alter what we would choose, have people cross our path, give revelation to change the outcome, ect.
He showed me this is how what I refer to, as the illusion of free will, is maintained, yet God was never not in control. This is how He can say of a truth, that He sees the end from the beginning, and His will for us is nothing but good, because He MAKES the end to be good, regardless of what "choices" we make.
This, for me, made a whole lot of difficult topics, like the use of evil, much clearer and more simplified. My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on February 27, 2009, 07:54:07 PM
:cloud9: Well, since you all brought it up.......a few weeks ago God gave me something else regarding all that. He showed me this as I was driving; He knows I learn best from "pictures", LOL.
If our life's progression of events were as if we were driving, we are driving, bound IN time, choosing the turns we make in life's events.
God, on the other hand, is NOT bound in time, and is watching the whole thing from beginning to end. So He therefore has the capacity to "go ahead of us" and change the road, put up roadblocks, put circumstances in our way to alter what we would choose, have people cross our path, give revelation to change the outcome, ect.
He showed me this is how what I refer to, as the illusion of free will, is maintained, yet God was never not in control. This is how He can say of a truth, that He sees the end from the beginning, and His will for us is nothing but good, because He MAKES the end to be good, regardless of what "choices" we make.
This, for me, made a whole lot of difficult topics, like the use of evil, much clearer and more simplified. My :2c: Blessings.....
ya quite a Picture book Card... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on February 27, 2009, 07:16:51 PM
This is as good a place as any to throw this out to you guys . . . I just finished reading the book "The Shack" about a half hour ago (it's why I haven't been posting much lately) and this subject is so perfectly touched on . .as are many others throughout the book. I highly suggest . .strongly suggest . . . get your hands on a couple copies of this . ..one for you . . and after you've read it, you'll be glad you have other copies to hand out . ..also . . .read it with a pen. It's supposedly fiction, but there are so many awesome revelational tidbits in the thing . . oh, and make sure you read it with a box of tissues . . .you'll need them . .more than once . . . best book I've ever read.
The storyline is all around a guy's little girl being abducted and murdered . . . so the question "how can God allow such evil to exitst" comes up pretty strongly in it.
Did I mention it's a great book?
Got it in stereo Bro ...here and the Pm :icon_king:
Ive heard of this before.....20 hrs reading ya say....just may take me Months.... :icon_flower:
ill sue look out for it.....ya painted quite an advert. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on February 27, 2009, 08:45:12 PM
Quote from: Nathan on February 27, 2009, 07:16:51 PM
This is as good a place as any to throw this out to you guys . . . I just finished reading the book "The Shack" about a half hour ago (it's why I haven't been posting much lately) and this subject is so perfectly touched on . .as are many others throughout the book. I highly suggest . .strongly suggest . . . get your hands on a couple copies of this . ..one for you . . and after you've read it, you'll be glad you have other copies to hand out . ..also . . .read it with a pen. It's supposedly fiction, but there are so many awesome revelational tidbits in the thing . . oh, and make sure you read it with a box of tissues . . .you'll need them . .more than once . . . best book I've ever read.
The storyline is all around a guy's little girl being abducted and murdered . . . so the question "how can God allow such evil to exitst" comes up pretty strongly in it.
Did I mention it's a great book?
Got it in stereo Bro ...here and the Pm :icon_king:
Ive heard of this before.....20 hrs reading ya say....just may take me Months.... :icon_flower:
ill sue look out for it.....ya painted quite an advert. :icon_flower:
I got my copy at Walmart . . .but my wife's been trying to read it . . then a lady at church let me borrow hers . . .and now my wife has been really spending time in it again . . . I just LOVED what Mack saw after the Holy Spirit touched his eyes . . .and each time he tried to explain what the Holy Spirit "looked" like . . .she kept changing forms and colors while she stood in one place . . .her color changed with her temperment . . .like excitment would transform her appearance . . .then when she calmed down, her colors would change again . .never one solid color . . always a different mixture of colors . . .lights, stones . . . whoever wrote the book . . .had to have had an intimate experience to see these things. Very cool book.
I also fell over at the part of the "walking in expectancy" versus "walking in expectations". On the surface they would appear to mean the same thing . .but oh, my . . what a difference there is between the two.
:cloud9: Well, I've never heard of the book, but your last comment here Nathan brought back a word that came thru interpretation of tongues many years ago.
The gist of it was; He said that His people were hurting over their "expectations" not being met in any area of their life. He said that we were not keeping our eyes on Him and what He would say He was going to do for us personally, but rather reading into it and ASSUMING and then forming an expectation thru our carnal minds, of exactly how it was going to play out.
He said He could not give life to the expectation because it was not based on faith of a Spirit breathed Word that came from the Father's mouth, but was instead birthed out of the reasonings and imaginings of the carnal mind. Blessings...
Yes, that's the crux exactly . .when you live in expectancy, you're not let down or offended that something didn't go according to plan, but you simply adapt your actions to the change without harboring grudges and also, the biggy to living in expectation is that there's a sense of control with it . .you "expect" people to do and act certain ways . . .but when you live in expectancy, the perception is you still have your druthers, but there's no enforcment there when they don't go your way.
Quote from: legoman on February 27, 2009, 07:10:55 PM
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3502.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2858.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=202.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1495.0
Thanks Legoman. I've saved the first link and will read through it, but sadly the other three seem to be off limits to me.... :dontknow:
Want me to copy and paste at least some of it and send to you in PM?
Quote from: Cat on February 27, 2009, 11:49:04 PM
Quote from: legoman on February 27, 2009, 07:10:55 PM
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3502.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2858.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=202.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1495.0
Thanks Legoman. I've saved the first link and will read through it, but sadly the other three seem to be off limits to me.... :dontknow:
Hm, you probably need 50 posts under your belt so the other boards open up to you. Does that sound right mods?
If so, just post 9 more times and you should be ok :Sparkletooth:
I think you're probably on to something there, Lego my Eggo, but maybe Taf, Martin, or others who've been mods longer than I will know for sure...I'll try to find out.
Ok guys. Thanks. Maybe it's for the best, as it will give me time to read and digest the first one and some other bits and bobs I'm reading at the minute. If I still can't read them I'll let you know. :thumbsup:
One of the stumbling blocks is because this word associated with God is not all there is to it and the typical discussion over the aionios God tends to make people want to go back and forth from one definition or the other and hope one of them is right.
While I understand the demand for this word age, it limits what is there. So then when sharing our faith we then go off the goal and dig in and start defending the translations that have helped us, so this post isn't to negate what definitions can do with people it is growing beyond that.
Olam is translated age, but the intention of that word is to convey exactly what people find troubling. It is telling us that anything concerning God finished plan is a time far off, or something not easily perceived. It is to say that our hope is in faith and love and that even if we cannot see it, even it "seems" like our trial is everlasting it is not.
This aionios God has an existence that is imperceptible because we cannot perceive something that just "IS". What ages may end, still is not the end, so God is indeed everlasting and eternal and so are we.
God talks of the ages that end, yet a new heaven and new earth is promised, so we cannot perceive even the ending of our life to see that.
We have no choice but to hope for that which is unseen and a time far off. The issue is if a person believes it, or has to work out the definitions all the time in order to feel something.
This is not meant towards any posting here, I just had a thought about the thread title and wrote this. If someone comes at me with definitions, I don't have to defend the translations anymore, I see where both words fit in context with hope and perception.
It's something an argument cannot make me question anymore. God "IS" and if God IS LOVE, then the only logical outcome is that one day we will also "BE".
I'm still struggling with the whole 'aion', 'aionios' translation issue. I just can't get my head around the understanding of 'aionios' life that Jesus talks about. I can uderstand God being the aionios God, because He deals in time with Ages. The life that Jesus was offering was life without end. He conveys this when He says 'so that you may always be where I am' when talking of a place He will prepare for His disciples. He talks of the water that will never make you thirst again, and the bread that you will never be hungry again. John 20:28- 'never perish'. So you get the impression He is talking about eternal life. Why use 'aionios' and not 'athanatos'. If the word 'aion' means a period of time, then could it not mean a period of time without end depending on the context of the verse? :dontknow:
Quote from: Cat on March 04, 2009, 11:26:28 AM
I'm still struggling with the whole 'aion', 'aionios' translation issue.
From my experience, the translational issue is solved by seeing the literal and figurative in separate contexts. Otherwise then we have to start slighting translators and theologins for not getting it right. Aion most likely does mean "literally" and age of time with a beginning and end and have not had a problem with that. However, then someone uses the verse that is translated aionios to "everlasting" and the debate starts. Figuratively is pertains to the perpetuity of time and that means we cannot perceive the ending of the ages, they "seem" like forever. A trial or correction "seems" like it will go on and on and on.
Quote
I just can't get my head around the understanding of 'aionios' life that Jesus talks about.
We can live a life pertaining to an age of time while still being everlasting creatures. The bible talks of a new heaven and a new earth. So this period of heaven and earth will end but a new one begins, so thats how we are "literally" aionios beings.
to make my point, you cannot perceive that, so it "appears" or "seems" like an everlasting struggle may be present.
Quote
If the word 'aion' means a period of time, then could it not mean a period of time without end depending on the context of the verse? :dontknow:
It certainly can have a different perspective concerning time depending on the verse.
One use of aion is "perpetuity of time" there are those that will then argue that definition incorrect and again my point is to get out of the business of arguing terms and read the implications of scripture and see the ability for Gods word to convey a literal and figurative context. People still argue and you do not have to take my word for it, but I see a picture that doesn't have to argue whos translated what correctly and the message works together between the two for encouragement and hope.
I think Paul is on the right track here. I know it's hard to understand, but one of the things that we all easily get caught up in is leaning on our own understanding. Let the Spirit speak the truth to you and through you, and then you'll see that precise meanings of words lose some of their importance. I'm not saying they are not important. If you're confused, talk to God about it. That's what I did back when I was doing all this heavy studying on this and other topics. The bottom line is, men are always going to have their opinions and they will vary and conflict, but God will always tell you the truth.
I'll tell you what happened with me. I was laying in bed one night with all this stuff swimming around in my head, and I was so confused and conflicted because I was trying to lean on my own understanding of the arguments and so forth. So I just said; Lord, what is this? Is this true? His answer was a question. Who do you think I Am? (I swear I "heard" a bit of a chuckle) You know me well enough to know my character... Does the teaching you've had so far line up with what you know of me? Not the 'knowledge' you've been taught, but what I've given to you...
This line of questioning was so clear and brought so much peace to me. Sometimes things you've been shown in the spirit are hard to put into words. Anyway, ask Him to show you. He will. :thumbsup:
Paul and Doc- thanks for your help. I've just begun a mammoth study of the Bible. I bought some marker pens yesterday and as I read the Bible, I'm going to mark four main categories: 1- scriptures that seem to imply man's choices, free-will and authority, 2- scriptures that imply God's will is dominant over man's etc, 3- scriptures that mention the future restoration or Kingdom e.g Jesus, resurrection, living 'forever' etc. 4 - scriptures that mention the dead, grave, pit etc. (These are the four main categories that I am studying at the moment).
By doing this I'm hoping to start afresh and I can check words used e.g I've just got up to Gen 3:22 and my amplified Bible says: '...and live forever'. I've just checked the concordance and the Hebrew word is 'owlam'. When I come to a word like this or something that is from one of the above categories, I can check the words via the concordance and hopefully get a better understanding of the meaning etc. I'm praying all the time that God will show me His truth. It's going to take maybe a year, but it will be worth it. (I haven't read the Bible properly for a few years, so it will be good). :bigGrin:
Quote from: Cat on March 05, 2009, 10:47:20 AM
I'm praying all the time that God will show me His truth. It's going to take maybe a year
That will be like a universe speed record or something. :happy3: :laughing7:
Paul and Doc make good points here.
I tend to go with the view that aionios just means pertaining to the ages, and aion is a long period of time. Metaphorically it could seem like forever, some time duration that we cannot imagine, but practically it is an age that will end.
So possibly there is a metaphorical vs literal context here. However I do believe that perhaps the translators were under pressure to put a certain bias into the text (for political control or whatever) - perhaps by order of the king ie. THERE SHALL BE HELL in the bible or OFF WITH YOUR HEAD YOU HERETIC! This is just IMHO - I haven't researched that too much, but from what little I have read it seems the translators may have been under duress, so I can't fault them too much. But you can imagine the benefits of having hell around for the King and Country. The church commanded great armies, without actually having an army itself. How is that possible? Political control. Anyway that is another story...
I look at it like this. Not everyone will get aionios life. But everyone will get eternal life.
We have been so brainwashed by church teachings, that it is hard to unwrap them sometimes.
Take this verse, the most basic concept of our faith:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal [aionios] life.
Is this verse describing the ultimate fate of all mankind? That is what the church would have you believe. Yet it is only speaking of aionios life - life for the eons. So a few will get life for the eons, while the rest will get punishment for the eons (Matthew 25:46). But is that the end? No.
Eventually everyone will be immortal. The corruptible must put on incorruption (ie. be made righteous), and the mortal must put on immortality (1 Cor 15). We will all be made righteous eventually and then immortal so then we will have eternal life.
So John 3:16 is not talking about giving us eternal life.
John 10:28 has the same issues with misinterpretation:
I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [not in the aion] perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
Notice here eternal is again aionios, but also "never" is really "not to the aion" - so we have a translation bias again.
This is my understanding: Those who receive aionios life, also have eternal life at that point, because they will not be lost, and will never die - they have already put on incorruption and immortality. They are the chosen (many are called but few chosen) - they are the elect.
However, everyone else will only put on incorruption and immortality after the great white throne judgement. They missed out on the aionios life, instead got aionios punishment (its really aionios chastisement - teaching). After their judgement is complete they too will have eternal life.
Hope that helps clear up the difference between "aionios" life and "eternal" life.
Legoman
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 05, 2009, 03:43:00 PM
Quote from: Cat on March 05, 2009, 10:47:20 AM
I'm praying all the time that God will show me His truth. It's going to take maybe a year
That will be like a universe speed record or something. :happy3: :laughing7:
:laughing7: LOL :laughing7:
At least after a year you might understand that God really is love. :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: Cat on March 05, 2009, 10:47:20 AM
Paul and Doc- thanks for your help. I've just begun a mammoth study of the Bible. I bought some marker pens yesterday and as I read the Bible, I'm going to mark four main categories: 1- scriptures that seem to imply man's choices, free-will and authority, 2- scriptures that imply God's will is dominant over man's etc, 3- scriptures that mention the future restoration or Kingdom e.g Jesus, resurrection, living 'forever' etc. 4 - scriptures that mention the dead, grave, pit etc. (These are the four main categories that I am studying at the moment).
By doing this I'm hoping to start afresh and I can check words used e.g I've just got up to Gen 3:22 and my amplified Bible says: '...and live forever'. I've just checked the concordance and the Hebrew word is 'owlam'. When I come to a word like this or something that is from one of the above categories, I can check the words via the concordance and hopefully get a better understanding of the meaning etc. I'm praying all the time that God will show me His truth. It's going to take maybe a year, but it will be worth it. (I haven't read the Bible properly for a few years, so it will be good). :bigGrin:
Good luck with that.
Hi guys, am I being too optimistic hoping to do it in a year? :mblush: Well, as long as it takes then..... :laughing7:
Legoman, you said: ''Not everyone will get aionios life. But everyone will get eternal life''. This is why I'm struggling: all the stuff I read about universalism, says that God works with humans through the ages. Some say 5 ages, some say 7?? So those who lose out on the Kingdom Age will be resurrected after then and live in the next age or is it the one after that one?? Then again, they will be punished during this 'age' or part of it, so maybe this doesn't constitute 'life' even though they will be alive?? Can you see how it all gets rather confusing when you take 'aionios' to mean for a set period of time. On the otherhand, if it can mean 'endless' then there is no confusion. The 'endless' punishment doesn't have to mean being tortured forever, but rather, God's judgment on sin (not the sinner) is 'endless'.
John 3:16 is comparing 'perishing' with 'aionios'. We are living in one of the ages and so have life pertaining to this age surely? We are still perishing during this age so Jesus was offering something that implies 'forever'. Jesus didn't elaborate as to what came AFTER the aionios life if we are to understand it as temporary. Perishing means your life is temporary, whereas Jesus was offering a kind of life where you wouldn't perish, or so it seems......something doesn't seem right here......
Quote from: Cat on March 05, 2009, 09:13:28 PM
Hi guys, am I being too optimistic hoping to do it in a year? :mblush: Well, as long as it takes then..... :laughing7:
LOL we are just kidding you Cat. Really though it will take a lifetime (and beyond) to learn the whole truth. But you should be able to get a good grasp on the basics in one year. I've only been studying for about one year myself - but who knows I could be way out of whack :bigGrin:
Quote
Legoman, you said: "Not everyone will get aionios life. But everyone will get eternal life". This is why I'm struggling: all the stuff I read about universalism, says that God works with humans through the ages. Some say 5 ages, some say 7?? So those who lose out on the Kingdom Age will be resurrected after then and live in the next age or is it the one after that one?? Then again, they will be punished during this 'age' or part of it, so maybe this doesn't constitute 'life' even though they will be alive?? Can you see how it all gets rather confusing when you take 'aionios' to mean for a set period of time. On the otherhand, if it can mean 'endless' then there is no confusion. The 'endless' punishment doesn't have to mean being tortured forever, but rather, God's judgment on sin (not the sinner) is 'endless'.
To be honest, its difficult to determine exactly how many ages there are to come. We know there are at least 2 more ages coming because the bible speaks of (plural) "ages to come". I'm fairly certain the aionios life will start with the millenium with Christ (aka the thousand years). I'm less certain if the aionios punishment also starts in that age, or if it starts in the next age. I'm also not sure if the aionios punishment goes beyond one age or not. Also I'm not certain but possibly each person will get a different number of ages (or just different lengths of times) in the lake of fire, as appropriate.
In the grand scheme of things these are just minor details. Some will get life for the ages, others will get chastisement for the ages.
What I do know for sure is that all the ages will end in the "consumation of the ages" (1 cor 10:11) - then God will be all in all.
I am also 100% sure that the lake of fire is not literal - meant for torture. In fact the lake of fire is most likely relating to those who have the aionios life.
1 Cor 6:2 Do you not know that the
saints will judge the world?
What do you think God's chosen elect will be doing in this time of aionios life? Sitting around playing harps on clouds?!? :winkgrin: No they will be rulers and judges and priests. Who will they be ruling and judging and preaching too? Why everyone else of course! In fact, they will be the very instruments that God & Jesus will use to bring everyone else to salvation. We will be kings, judges, priests, and saviours. And Jesus will be the ultimate: king of kings, judge of judges, priest of priests, saviour of saviours.
And of course the saints will need preparation & training for this monumental task of judging the world in righteousness. Some of that preparation is happening right now. But some of it may need to happen in the next age with Christ, before the unbelievers are resurrected. I'm not sure. Someone else please chime in if you think I'm way off base. :Sparkletooth:
Quote
John 3:16 is comparing 'perishing' with 'aionios'. We are living in one of the ages and so have life pertaining to this age surely? We are still perishing during this age so Jesus was offering something that implies 'forever'. Jesus didn't elaborate as to what came AFTER the aionios life if we are to understand it as temporary. Perishing means your life is temporary, whereas Jesus was offering a kind of life where you wouldn't perish, or so it seems......something doesn't seem right here......
Perhaps he is offering spiritual life vs the fleshly life we have right now?
Legoman
Quote from: Cat on March 05, 2009, 09:13:28 PM
Hi guys, am I being too optimistic hoping to do it in a year? :mblush: Well, as long as it takes then..... :laughing7:
Legoman, you said: "Not everyone will get aionios life. But everyone will get eternal life". This is why I'm struggling: all the stuff I read about universalism, says that God works with humans through the ages. Some say 5 ages, some say 7?? So those who lose out on the Kingdom Age will be resurrected after then and live in the next age or is it the one after that one?? Then again, they will be punished during this 'age' or part of it, so maybe this doesn't constitute 'life' even though they will be alive?? Can you see how it all gets rather confusing when you take 'aionios' to mean for a set period of time. On the otherhand, if it can mean 'endless' then there is no confusion. The 'endless' punishment doesn't have to mean being tortured forever, but rather, God's judgment on sin (not the sinner) is 'endless'.
John 3:16 is comparing 'perishing' with 'aionios'. We are living in one of the ages and so have life pertaining to this age surely? We are still perishing during this age so Jesus was offering something that implies 'forever'. Jesus didn't elaborate as to what came AFTER the aionios life if we are to understand it as temporary. Perishing means your life is temporary, whereas Jesus was offering a kind of life where you wouldn't perish, or so it seems......something doesn't seem right here......
I'm going to throw yet another spanner or wrench (depending on what country you're from) into this for you Cat. Just what is the Kingdom? Jesus said the Kingdom of God does not come by observation, but that the
Kingdom is within you (us).
So we only miss out on the kingdom life until we "get it". Now, there may be a difference as to what the situation looks like in terms of rewards, etc. if we miss it while in our physical life inhabiting these bodies vs. getting it now and once we pass on out of these physical shells, but I've not studied that and asked Father to enlighten me on it enough to really know for sure, so I'll remain silent on that piece for the time being.
The assumption is, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven is heaven . . . it's a place where we will eventually go when we die . . . but Doc, I think what you are seeing may feel it's in it's infancy stages to you . . .but I think you've been led up to the threshold of truth nonetheless.
I see the kingdom as a realm of spiritual life "in" us. It doesn't come with observation . . . which again for me is the same as it doesn't come by flesh and blood . .by natural reasoning . . . it's all invisible and I like the idea that "seeing" things in this kingdom we speak of is actually included in the "rewards" that are "laid up" for us . . . . the reward is that you can see the nature of truth and life and it progressively sets you free from where you currently are at. It enables you to go deeper, reach further, be elevated higher and see greater things that your mind could never comprehend on it's own power.
there was a comment made by somebody . . .I've lost track again . . .that mentioned the irony of how you can think beyond the comprehension of your mind . . . I think that is such a cool statement. It's like standing at the edge of the grand canyon or Niagra Falls . . .your mind is just in awe of the power and beauty, the vastness . . . In the Fathers house are many rooms . . .prepared for us to enter in . .not so that we'll feel all warm and fuzzy, but so that where Christ "is" we may also be.
We try so hard to search for him in Scriptures . . in the creation . . .in the sky . .when he's told us where he is . . .those things only "point" to another place, they are simply signs left by him so we know that he "was" there and where he "is" now. He's in us. Such a mystery, such a release of delight.
The concept of what "heaven" is, is still really confusing for me. I used to think it was a paradise out "there" somewhere (maybe on some rock in space) where everything was beautiful - streets of gold, we could fly around and visit the universe, all physical... etc.
Now I lean more to the spiritual kingdom "in us"... though I don't know what that means exactly. I also don't know how the aionios life fits in exactly.
It will be spiritual, not physical. The problem is, I don't know what "spiritual" is exactly.
Legoman
But that's okay . . .knowing isnt' a requirement . . . accepting is all that is asked of us. Faith is seeing things AS THOUGH they are, accepting what you don't understand and believing in what you can not see . . . what a philosophy to build on eh?
Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 10:14:01 PM
The assumption is, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven is heaven . . . it's a place where we will eventually go when we die . . . but Doc, I think what you are seeing may feel it's in it's infancy stages to you . . .but I think you've been led up to the threshold of truth nonetheless.
I see the kingdom as a realm of spiritual life "in" us. It doesn't come with observation . . . which again for me is the same as it doesn't come by flesh and blood . .by natural reasoning . . . it's all invisible and I like the idea that "seeing" things in this kingdom we speak of is actually included in the "rewards" that are "laid up" for us . . . . the reward is that you can see the nature of truth and life and it progressively sets you free from where you currently are at. It enables you to go deeper, reach further, be elevated higher and see greater things that your mind could never comprehend on it's own power.
there was a comment made by somebody . . .I've lost track again . . .that mentioned the irony of how you can think beyond the comprehension of your mind . . . I think that is such a cool statement. It's like standing at the edge of the grand canyon or Niagra Falls . . .your mind is just in awe of the power and beauty, the vastness . . . In the Fathers house are many rooms . . .prepared for us to enter in . .not so that we'll feel all warm and fuzzy, but so that where Christ "is" we may also be.
We try so hard to search for him in Scriptures . . in the creation . . .in the sky . .when he's told us where he is . . .those things only "point" to another place, they are simply signs left by him so we know that he "was" there and where he "is" now. He's in us. Such a mystery, such a release of delight.
I think we understand each other, Nathan. :thumbsup:
I believe we can experience the Kingdom now, whilst still living in this fallen world. As we are transformed into the likeness of Christ we live as if we were already in Jesus' physical Kingdom (which I assume is what is mentioned in Revelation and Isaiah). So during this Age, it is spiritual, but when this age ends, and 'the Kingdom is restored to (spiritual?) Israel' Jesus will rule literally along with the first fruits - the believers. They will rule over the people that are still alive on the earth: namely unbelivers. The rest of the dead are resurrected after the 1000 years?? (Wouldn't it make sense to resurrect them at the beginning so they can be taught the right stuff too??) I'm not sure of all this stuff. What is important is that we live as citizens of Jesus' Kingdom NOW. I read recently that some believe the Kingdom isn't literal but spiritual?? I tend to see it as ultimately being literal AS WELL AS spiritual.
How can 'aionios' life only start at the millenium? We are in an Age now aren't we?
Legoman said: ''Perhaps he is offering spiritual life vs the fleshly life we have right now?'' - this seems to make good sense. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cat on March 05, 2009, 11:40:57 PM
I believe we can experience the Kingdom now, whilst still living in this fallen world. As we are transformed into the likeness of Christ we live as if we were already in Jesus' physical Kingdom (which I assume is what is mentioned in Revelation and Isaiah). So during this Age, it is spiritual, but when this age ends, and 'the Kingdom is restored to (spiritual?) Israel' Jesus will rule literally along with the first fruits - the believers. They will rule over the people that are still alive on the earth: namely unbelivers. The rest of the dead are resurrected after the 1000 years?? (Wouldn't it make sense to resurrect them at the beginning so they can be taught the right stuff too??) I'm not sure of all this stuff. What is important is that we live as citizens of Jesus' Kingdom NOW. I read recently that some believe the Kingdom isn't literal but spiritual?? I tend to see it as ultimately being literal AS WELL AS spiritual.
How can 'aionios' life only start at the millenium? We are in an Age now aren't we?
Legoman said: "Perhaps he is offering spiritual life vs the fleshly life we have right now?" - this seems to make good sense. :thumbsup:
You're definitely on the right track, Cat. Just keep going...
Be cautious about how you think about the terms literal, spiritual, etc.
For example, spiritual does not mean, "not literal" nor is literal a synonym for physical.
Your last comment with the quote from legoman is right on.
Quote from: Doc on March 05, 2009, 11:52:24 PM
Quote from: Cat on March 05, 2009, 11:40:57 PM
I believe we can experience the Kingdom now, whilst still living in this fallen world. As we are transformed into the likeness of Christ we live as if we were already in Jesus' physical Kingdom (which I assume is what is mentioned in Revelation and Isaiah). So during this Age, it is spiritual, but when this age ends, and 'the Kingdom is restored to (spiritual?) Israel' Jesus will rule literally along with the first fruits - the believers. They will rule over the people that are still alive on the earth: namely unbelivers. The rest of the dead are resurrected after the 1000 years?? (Wouldn't it make sense to resurrect them at the beginning so they can be taught the right stuff too??) I'm not sure of all this stuff. What is important is that we live as citizens of Jesus' Kingdom NOW. I read recently that some believe the Kingdom isn't literal but spiritual?? I tend to see it as ultimately being literal AS WELL AS spiritual.
How can 'aionios' life only start at the millenium? We are in an Age now aren't we?
Legoman said: "Perhaps he is offering spiritual life vs the fleshly life we have right now?" - this seems to make good sense. :thumbsup:
You're definitely on the right track, Cat. Just keep going...
Be cautious about how you think about the terms literal, spiritual, etc.
For example, spiritual does not mean, "not literal" nor is literal a synonym for physical.
Your last comment with the quote from legoman is right on.
I get tripped up on that quite a bit as well Doc . . .
:cloud9: When you walk in the Spirit (proceeding word from the Father's mouth), you're in heaven..... :bgdance:
Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 01:15:06 AM
:cloud9: When you walk in the Spirit (proceeding word from the Father's mouth), you're in heaven..... :bgdance:
:thumbsup: :bgdance: :bgdance:
:cloud9: For you....... :angel4: (smile)
I've come across this interesting website:
http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.htm
If you scroll down you come to this section (although it's probably best to read from the beginning):
''The Truth about aionios-life (the life of the ages)
On stage the world over, Christians say: "Believe in Jesus, so that you can enter into eternal life when you die." Sounds great right? It is easily demonstrated how such a statement defiles the true victory of the cross, contradicts the Bible, and makes God a liar! How could that be? It be. Their argument is catastrophically flawed.
To understand why, let us immediately cut to to the truth: "aionios-life" is not immortality at all, and the Bible proves it! It was misunderstood by translators to be "everlasting life." But, the Bible provides very specific and explicit definitions for aionios-life and NOT ONE definition approaches the concept of being physically alive.''
It goes on in great detail and seems to make good sense. Any thoughts on this guys? :grin:
Great article. Sound logic too.
Continued on this page: http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity-detailedstudy.htm
:cloud9: I really don't understand all the qualifying statements as to what life everlasting means, in the first place. If you understand that there is no death in His Spirit, and you are in His Spirit at death (or before), and that Spirit has no beginning and no end, please tell me what the issue is here? I just don't get it. My :2c:......Blessings...
Cardinal,
Basicly the problem is caused by this:
When judged the saints get aionios life and the wicked aionios torment.
The duraration of what they get is the same.
Elsewhere God is called aionios God. He existed forever so the ET argument is that the duration of the word is forever in all 3 cases.
Those who believe the wicked are anilihated argue the effect of the punishment is eternal. God is eternal. Life is eternal.
UR is a little more complex.
Some believe the word never means eternal. There are ages before and after.
Some believe the meaning of the word depends on the context in which it is read.
The purpose of the article on the site is to prove punishment (=ET hell) is not eternal.
So it's not about His Spirit or anyone elses spirit dying; but how long the suffering for that eternal spirit lasts.
:2c:
Quote from: Cat on March 06, 2009, 10:47:36 PM
I've come across this interesting website:
http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.htm
If you scroll down you come to this section (although it's probably best to read from the beginning):
"The Truth about aionios-life (the life of the ages)
On stage the world over, Christians say: "Believe in Jesus, so that you can enter into eternal life when you die." Sounds great right? It is easily demonstrated how such a statement defiles the true victory of the cross, contradicts the Bible, and makes God a liar! How could that be? It be. Their argument is catastrophically flawed.
To understand why, let us immediately cut to to the truth: "aionios-life" is not immortality at all, and the Bible proves it! It was misunderstood by translators to be "everlasting life." But, the Bible provides very specific and explicit definitions for aionios-life and NOT ONE definition approaches the concept of being physically alive."
It goes on in great detail and seems to make good sense. Any thoughts on this guys? :grin:
Nice find, Cat. :thumbsup:
:cloud9: thanks for summarizing that for me, WW......now I get what the "battle" is over.....Blessings.....
Good article Cat - he has some links to Ray Smith's & Mike Vinson's writings...
He pointed out something I hadn't considered before, namely that the definition of "aionios life" is given in scripture:
John 17:3 and this is the life age-during [aionios], that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;
I will have to reread those articles again.
Legoman