Tentmaker Forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGpxfoF3SYg&feature=related

Just putting them out there, these are their testimonies. I personally have never had any vision or dream or NDE of hell.

Witness, or no?

Do get me wrong AM, this are interesting videos and food for thought.

You wrote you didn't have a NDE.
But your scriptural knowledge + a videocamera is enough to put your own fake testimony on YouTube.

So my question to you and others is; Is there something in the Bible that tells us such visits to Hell (and Heaven) are or aren't possible?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 23, 2008, 10:13:11 AM
Do get me wrong AM, this are interesting videos and food for thought.

You wrote you didn't have a NDE.
But your scriptural knowledge + a videocamera is enough to put your own fake testimony on YouTube.

So my question to you and others is; Is there something in the Bible that tells us such visits to Hell (and Heaven) are or aren't possible?

To awnser your question (since it was addressed to me firstly) is simply: I don't know

(BTW, I think the christian world would be in a better spot if more people would just say "I don't know", when they really don't)

This is an extremely interesting topic. I too watched the testimony of Mickey Robinson a while back and it really got me scared. He seems very genuine in his statement, so what do we make of this?

DD,

Many people do everything for money.
I sometimes dream I can fly...

The Pharao had a vision of fat and skinny cows coming out of the Nile.
What did it mean? Was it  just a litteral dream of swimming cows?
Couldn't the same be true for all those Hell visions?

Revelation 1:1   .... and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Signified....
Means it's not litteral.

I think nothing in the Bible explained about Heaven or Hell is as it really is.
It's not that God/Jesus is liar or something.
It's the best they can do for us with our limited brains.
I don't think the streets in Heaven are of gold and jewels. I think there aren't even streets. It's something we just can comprehend so God just tries to explain it with earthly things. If there is gold in heaven it would be spiritual gold.

Same thought about hell. No real fire there. But spiritual fire.

I've read a few Hell books/onlin etestemonies. They all seem to have something in common. You see different punishments.
Why wouldn't God just put all in the same blast furnace. Simple and extremely painful as intended.
Or not???
Are those punishments personal so all receive a lesson to teach about their personal sins.

Did I forget to mention fire by something in common? Nope. One book didn't mention fire in hell.
Basicly people all lived in their own small personal world. They where not aware of that. They relived their lives over and over.
I'm not a storyteller so I make up my own example that was not in the book but is easiest to explain.
A KKK member was part of a manhunt for a negro. But this time he was the negro. So he was confronted with the effect his actions had on others when he was alive. That somehow looks far more what hell is about than the torture chamber.

All that said all the Heaven/Hell books that are real are nothing more than the book of Revelation.
signified

Yes I know we are'nt suppose to believe everything we read, and I know lots of false prophets do exist. Its just that if you look online there seem to be more and more people that write books on their experiences in "hell". Some even have the books online for free. I few I read upon again today were

Mary K. Baxter
Bill Wiese
and Mickey Robinson again, even tho it seems he was pulled from hell so his does'nt really make a solid claim to any eternal hell.

They where all pulled from hell otherwise they could have wriiten about it.
On itself it doesn't say anything about eternity.
People writting about heaven returned too....

Yes the free books sorta debunk my 'make money' of it.

There is some hardcore hellfire site that reviews Bill Wiese 23 Minutes in Hell.
They start the debunking article with saying they doubted to write about the book because hell is real and must be scared of.
But they decided to write about it because the wanted only a Biblically sound warning.
Perhaps some (free) stories are made up because those people genuinly think they help mankind with scaring them out of hell?

Quote from: Brian on November 08, 2008, 07:53:39 PM
Just keep in mind that there are just as many NDE accountings of people briefly going to Heaven as well. And while I haven't studied any of this, I'm sure there are very New Age, Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic et al style NDE accountings of experiencing the afterlife as well.

I don't know what other religions see as afterlife. But many things seem to be copied. Islam does know hell too. Sound a lot like the Christian hell. Or of Greek mythology.
So it proves nothing.
If hell is real they see hell, erm, because it's real.
If it's just an illusion then it's an illusion for all of them.
So it doesn't prove or disprove anything.
It would if hell was vastly different in different religions. For example burning in fire. Or constantly drowning. Or constantly freezing at near abosolute zero.

QuoteThis sort of thing reminds me of all the UFO abduction testimonies. As far as I know, the first UFO abduction case can be traced back to a New England couple, and was released in a book called "The Interrupted Journey" in the 1960's. Since then, there have been zillions of alien abduction testimonies. Also around the 1960's someone filmed a Bigfoot, and since then there have been zillions of Bigfoot sightings. I have strong hunch that NDE trips to Heaven or Hell, can be traced back to one or two individuals such as; "Popular interest in near-death experiences was initially sparked by Raymond Moody, Jr's 1975 book "Life After Life" (Wikipedia). And that this phenomenon doesn't go back very far in history. Ghost stories have been around for centuries, but I'm guessing that NDE "I went to Heaven or Hell for a brief time", haven't been around for all that long, even though Heaven and Hell have been.  I was listening to the tail end of Hank Hanegraaff debunking a  "I went to Heaven" story the other day, and I'm sure he'll write a book about it, if he hasn't already. The main theme in most of these is; HOAX. Whether it be a ghost hoax, a UFO hoax, a Bigfoot hoax or an NDE hoax.

Maybe not an hoax in all cases but a genuine illusion.
Several years ago I saw an experiment on Discovery Channel.
A group of none related tourists payed for some sort of guide tour. It was in the USA possibly at a place that had reported UFO sighting in the past.
It was some sort of walk in nature. You know the guide telling what type of tree and bird they just walked past.
Then they entered an area with red/white ribbons. Something like a police crimescene.
The guide told 'm he knew very little about it. Basically he just knew they should stay on the path marked with the ribbons. And that something crashed that night.
All there was to be seen was some wreckage that looked more like a collapsed shed instead of  spaceship. There was one or 2 guards standing with their backs to the path. They where unarmed. And didn't move.
At the tour continued and the watched some more birds. At the end of the day they where brought to the city by a bus. In the bus some the guide mentioned an UFO in a very vague way. Arrived in the city there the gone their own ways.
6 month later they all where interviewed. What was behind the ribbons.
The place was swarming with aggressive marines that pointed their M16s at the tourists.
There where spaceshuttle like engines. Basically it looked like a huge spaceship has crashed.
Others remembers smoking holes in the ground.
So all remembered something that never was happened. No indoctrination at all.
It was an experiment to test how reliable an eye witness on a crime scene is.

No think what happens with your mind if you often listen to an hellfire sermon....

100% agreed  Brian,

My point was that the people in the experiment remembered things that where not true. I don't say lie because they where honest at their claims.
Probably they spoke about it with friends in a bar. You know how things go. Everyone is an expert on something. Or has a friend that has a neighbor that works for the CIA. So (some) people create their own reality.

And as you pointed out Augustine started a way of thinking. A way of thinking that was clearly teached for millenia.
If a walk past a red/white ribbon can get that kind of results; it's not hard to imagine what happens if you are an hell fearing dedicated Christian that get info from 'the experts'
And because there are so many religious people there is a large chance such stories pop up.

The only thing I wonder about is why the stories are so recent. A century ago a much much larger part attended to church that today. So statisticly seen there should have been much more reports back then...

Hi Whitewings,

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 23, 2008, 10:13:11 AM
So my question to you and others is; Is there something in the Bible that tells us such visits to Hell (and Heaven) are or aren't possible?

Some could take this verses to say so?

Ecc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Act 2:29  "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 

Act 2:34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

2Pe 3:4  They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."

1Th 4:13  But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope....16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
How can the dead rise if they are already in heaven? Note it reads dead, not body!  

Let me end with a few quotes from some of our early Church Fathers' and other sources.


The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Christian Words and Christian Meanings, by John Burnaby (pp. 148, 149):

"Greek philosophers had argued that the dissolution which we call death happens to nothing but bodies, and that the souls of men are by their native constitution immortal. The Greek word for immortality occurs only once in the New Testament, and there it belongs to none but the King of Kings.... The immortality of the soul is no part of the Christian creed,  just as it is no part of Christian anthropology to divide soul and body and confine the real man, the essence of personality, to supposedly separable soul for which embodiment is imprisonment.... Jesus taught no doctrine of everlasting life for disembodied souls, such as no Jew loyal to the faith his fathers could have accepted or even understood. But Jewish belief was in the raising of the dead at the Last Day."

(Why then do churches constantly say that disembodied souls have gone to heaven or hell?)

Companion Bible by E.W. Bullinger, on II Cor. 5:8:
"It is little less than a crime for anyone to pick out certain words and frame them into a sentence, not only disregarding the scope and context, but ignoring the other words in the verse, and quote the words 'absent from the body, present with the Lord' with the view of dispensing with the hope of the Resurrection (which is the subject of the whole passage) as though it were unnecessary; and as though 'present with the Lord' is obtainable without it."


Law and Grace, by Professor A. F. Knight (p. 79):
"In the Old Testament man is never considered to be a soul dwelling in a body, a soul that will one day be set free from the oppression of the body, at the death of that body, like a bird released from a cage. The Hebrews were not dualists in their understanding of God's world."

There is a further impressive protest against the popular idea that the dead survive as conscious "souls" in heaven. One might expect that such protest would initiate a wide-scale reform amongst the clergy. Alan Richardson writes in A Theological Word Book of the Bible (pp. 111, 112, emphasis added):

The protest of Justin Martyr against what later became orthodoxy, and remains so to this day, is no less incisive (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 80):

"They who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh. . . As in the case of a yoke of oxen, if one or other is loosed from the yoke, neither of them can plough alone; so neither can soul or body alone effect anything, if they be unyoked from their communion . . ." [i.e. the soul can have no separate existence]. For what is man but the reasonable animal composed of body and soul? Is the soul by itself man? No; but the soul of man. Would the body be called man? No; but it is called the body of man. If then neither of these is by itself man, but that which is made up of the two together is called man, and God has called man to life and resurrection, He has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and body. . . Well, they say, the soul is incorruptible, being a part of God and inspired by Him. . . . Then what thanks are due to Him, and what manifestation of His power and goodness is it, if He purposed to save what is by nature saved. . . . but no thanks are due to one who saves what is his own; for this is to save himself. . . . How then did Christ raise the dead? Their souls or their bodies? Manifestly both. If the resurrection were only spiritual, it was requisite that He, in raising the dead, should show the body lying apart by itself, and the soul living apart by itself. But now He did not do so, but raised the body. . . . Why do we any longer endure those unbelieving arguments and fail to see that we are retrograding when we listen to such an argument as this: That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us?"

Justin is here refuting the arguments of Gnosticism which denied the resurrection of the flesh. Traditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.

Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho:

Trypho : "Do you really admit that this place Jerusalem shall be rebuilt? And do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the Patriarchs...?"

Justin: "I and many others are of that opinion, and believe that this will take place, as you are assuredly aware; but on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith think otherwise. Moreover I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical and foolish. . . . I choose to follow not men or men's teachings, but God and the doctrines delivered by Him. For if you have fallen with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the truth of the resurrection . . . who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians . . . But I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and others declare. . . . We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The Day of the Lord,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general and the eternal resurrection of all men would take place."


"The Bible writers, holding fast to the conviction that the created order owes its existence to the wisdom and love of God and is therefore essentially good, could not conceive of life after death as a disembodied existence [as millions of sincere believers now do] ("we shall not be found naked" — II Cor. 5:3), but as a renewal under conditions of the intimate unity of body and soul which was human life as they knew it. Hence death was thought of as the death of the whole man, and such phrases as 'freedom from death,' imperishability or immortality could only properly be used to describe what is meant by the phrase eternal or living God 'who only has immortality' (I Tim. 6:16). Man does not possess within himself the quality of deathlessness, but must, if he is to overcome the destructive power of death, receive it as the gift of God who 'raised Christ from the dead,' and put death aside like a covering garment (I Cor. 15:53, 54). It is through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that this possibility for man ((2 Tim. 1:10) has been brought to life and the hope confirmed that the corruption (Rom. 11:7) which is a universal feature of human life shall be effectively overcome."

The fundamental confusion about life after death which has so permeated traditional Christianity is brilliantly described by Dr. Paul Althaus in his book, The Theology of Martin Luther (Fortress Press, 1966, pp. 413, 414):
"The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (I Cor. 15; Phil 3:21). This resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body. Paul speaks of the resurrection not 'of the body' but 'of the dead.' This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man.... Thus the original Biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic, Gnostic dualism. The New Testament idea of the resurrection which affects the whole man has had to give way to the immortality of the soul. The Last Day also loses its significance, for souls have received all that is decisively important long before this. Eschatological tension is no longer strongly directed to the day of Jesus' Coming. The difference between this and the Hope of the New Testament is very great."

Just some thoughts to share,   :2c:
Paul

Pierac,

The verses you quotes are absolutely clear.
Until I read:
Deuteronomy 18:10-11  There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,  11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

1 Samuel 28:7  Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

So the dead know nothing until resurrected.
But some like sorcerers can talk with the dead.
The dead are awake then. Are they still dead then?
If they can speak they perhaps also can walk/haunt?

Paul,

If you have additional quotes from more resources then please post them.  I'm needing to look at this subject a little more closely.  Along these lines would seem to fit, as I'm sitting here thinking of these things that you've quoted, all of the stories of Catholic saints that lived particularly holy and miraculous lives how when they were exhumed from the grave that they were found to be without corruption and giving off an amazing fragrance.  Makes more sense if it's 'cause everybody was "home" and awaiting the resurrection.  Also adds to everything I've seen in the early Church and in 19th, 20th, and 21st century Charismatic phenomenon where there was never a single instance of spiritual warfare involved in raising the dead.  If someone had it on their heart to rebuke death and command the awakening of the person, then they simply did it.  This isn't to say that fasting wasn't involved in the days leading up to it, at the direction of the Holy Spirit.  But I'm seeing some things along these lines that I'm wondering if additional quotes along these lines would continue to build an image in my peripheral vision about this.  Any more scholar quotes handy along the lines of what you've shared?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 11:31:26 PM
Pierac,

The verses you quotes are absolutely clear.
Until I read:
Deuteronomy 18:10-11  There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,  11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

1 Samuel 28:7  Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

So the dead know nothing until resurrected.
But some like sorcerers can talk with the dead.
The dead are awake then. Are they still dead then?
If they can speak they perhaps also can walk/haunt?

1Sa 28:6  When Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets.

Personally,  I don't believe a witch could raise the dead and have Samuel speak to Saul when God Himself refuse to do so. Also on who's behalf did Samuel speak? I had some research on this but can't seem to locate it :dontknow:

Quote from: martincisneros on November 08, 2008, 11:47:20 PM
Paul,

If you have additional quotes from more resources then please post them. 

A couple of years ago I put a paper together against the Westminster Confession  Chapter XXXII
Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead

I pulled from that paper... Here's some more but may seem disorganised as I'm not posting the Westminster Confession  with it.



The second problem is that the spirit is not the same as the soul.  (Gen 2:7) The Spirit is the breath of life (Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. (Job 7:21). "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Let's see what the scriptures say about the soul and death.  (Psa 78:50) He leveled a path for His anger; He did not spare their soul from death, But gave over their life to the plague, (Psa 116:8)  For You have rescued my soul from death, My eyes from tears, My feet from stumbling. (Psa 115:17)  The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor do any who go down into silence; (Ecc 9:10)  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.


It appears death is a type of sleep too. (Psa 13:3)  Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death, (1Th 4:13) But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. (Dan 12:2).  "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.  (Act 7:60) And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.   

Is it our bodies or soul that dwell in the grave? (Joh 5:28-29)  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.  

Do we have immortal subsistence?  (Job 10:5) 'Are Your days as the days of a mortal, Or Your years as man's years, (Isa 13:12) I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold And mankind than the gold of Ophir. (1Co 15:53-55).   For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.  When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"  Psa 146:3  Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.   And the telling verse is...    (1Ti 6:16)  who alone possesses immortality (God) and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.  Immortality is what we receive from the tree of life (Jesus). (Rev 22:14)  Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.


Who is in Heaven? (Joh 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

What does Paul tell us?  2Ti 2:18  men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.  John tells us  Rev 20:5  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Looks like we stay dead until the resurrection.   

Below is a small sample of scripture that clearly shows that when we die we stay dead until our resurrection. Our souls are not immortal!  

Gen 3:19  By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Psa 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

Psa 13:3  Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death,

Psa 22:15  my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.

Psa 88:10  Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah   No.

Psa 115:17  The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

Psa 146:4  When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Job 7:21  Why do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I shall lie in the earth; you will seek me, but I shall not be."

Ecc 3:18-19  I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19  For the fate of the sons of men and the fate
of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath (Spirit rûaḥ) and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

Ecc 12:7  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.  Notice it is God's Spirit that returns back to him. It is not our spirit, The word is rûaḥ: A feminine noun meaning spirit, wind, breath.

Ecc 9:4  But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Ecc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Isa 26:19  Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Dan 12:2  And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Joh 5:28  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice   Who are in the tombs if we are with Jesus at death?  

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.  That means no one!

Joh 11:11  After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him."   ... 14  So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

Joh 11:24  Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."  Notice it does not say on his last day!

Act 7:60  And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.  Like Lazarus, dead!

Act 2:34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

Act 2:29  "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.  And he is still there!  

1Co 15:26  The last enemy to be destroyed is death. The last not first!

1Th 4:13  But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.  Asleep like Lazarus, dead

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise
first.  How can the dead rise if they are in heaven? Note it reads dead, not body!  


2Pe 3:4  They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."


1Ti 6:16  who alone has immortality, (God) who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.   Alone? Yes! This is what makes the resurrection such a big deal. The dead are raised back to life!  The soul is not immortal. No such scripture exist that says so, it is only the tradition of men!

Rev 20:4  Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and
for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:5  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.  This is the first resurrection.  They are dead not bodyless souls somewhere in heaven!

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23  But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.   That is until the heavens are no longer.



Modern scholars realize that the view of death which has prevailed (and is now promoted in church constantly) is not biblical . Far from it, it is, amazingly, actually "pagan" and "Gnostic." In a standard text of Christian Dogmatics we read:

"...the hellenization process by which Christianity adopted many Greek [PAGAN] thought patterns led in a different direction as the eschatological hope came to be expressed in Hellenistic categories. Irenaeus said: 'It is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things shall go away in the invisible place allotted to them by God. and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event. Then receiving their bodies and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come into the presence of God.' Irenaeus' statement contains the concept of an abode or purgatory in which the soul of the dead remains until the universal resurrection. We should not denounce this as a deviation from biblical teaching, since the point of the assertion is antignostic. Irenaeus wanted to reject the Gnostic idea that at the end of this earthly life the soul immediately ascends to its heavenly abode. As the early fathers fought the pagan idea that a part of the human person is simply immortal, it was important for them to assert that there is no rectilinear ascent to God.  Once we die, life is over" (CHRISTIAN DOGMATICS, BRAATEN/JENSON, VOL. 2, p. 503, section written by Hans Schwartz, Professor of Protestant Theology, University of Regensburg, Federal Republic of Germany)

There is a further impressive protest against the popular idea that the dead survive as conscious "souls" in heaven. One might expect that such protest would initiate a wide-scale reform amongst the clergy. Alan Richardson writes in A Theological Word Book of the Bible (pp. 111, 112, emphasis added):


This is getting quite long so I better stop.

Paul

More what about verses... I usually call them but verses, But what about this... :laughing7:

What about these two verses?

2 Corinthians 5:8 - "absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord"
and,
Philippians 1:23 - "I long to depart this life and be with Christ."

People have taken these two verses to mean that when you die you are automatically taken to heaven to be with Christ. The question that we must ask ourselves is what does Paul mean when he says, "with Christ?" When does Paul expect to be with Christ? Is it immediately after death, or is it during the resurrection of the dead at the Second Coming of Christ? This is an easy question to answer if you know where to look, but first let's takes a look at what a few sources say about this verse.

The New American Bible states the following on 2 Corinthians chapter 5:
"Unlike the Greeks (philosophers), who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it."

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible states the following on 2 Corinthians 5:8:
"Paul's pithy statement, to be "absent from the body and to be present with the Lord," a statement pregnant with hope for all Christians, is understood to reflect an immediacy of sequence in the consciousness of the individual only. When a Christian closes his eyes in death, the next moment, as far as he is concerned, he will be with the Lord, though countless millennia may have intervened. Thus the basic structure of the New Testament, which is death followed by resurrection is preserved; at the sane time the postponement of the resurrection until the parousia, is maintained."

In other words, there is no sensation of time when you are dead. When you die, the next thing that you will experience is being with the Lord Jesus Christ on the day of his return, even though thousands of years have passed by.

Let us now go back and answer the question that we asked before, "When does Paul expect to be with the Lord?" The answer is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where Paul is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ:
"And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord."

This is when Paul expects to be with the Lord, at the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ, not before then. Let us see another wonderful example of when Paul plans to be with Jesus. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 states:
"We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembly with him."

Again, we can see that Paul expects the Thessalonians and himself to assemble with Christ at His Coming."

When you read the Bible you must always keep in mind who the writer was writing to and why. Paul in this example was not writing with the idea that his letter would become part of the New Testament for all to read for generations to come. He was writing to the church at Corinth and at Philippi that he had personally established. The churches at Corinth and Philippi were already familiar with the teachings of Paul on the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. This is why he did not mention the time period between death and the return of Christ. In the Bible, and when speaking with other Christians, many times we read or say that Jesus died and three days later he resurrected. Other times we say that Jesus died and resurrected. We do not mention the three days in between his death and resurrection because we both know what we are talking about. This is all that happened in these verses. Paul was writing to his churches, people whom he instructed personally, not to people that were unfamiliar with Christianity. They knew exactly what he was talking about. Here are a few examples:
"It is Christ Jesus who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who intercedes for us" (Romans 8:34).

The same author Paul does not mention the three days from Jesus'death till his resurrection, but we all know that he is not implying that Jesus died and rose immediately. Paul is just omitting an obvious fact.
1 Peter 3:22 states:
"But an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God."

Peter does not mention the forty days in between the resurrection and his ascension that Jesus was with the Apostles before going to heaven to sit at the right hand of God. It is because the people that Peter was writing to were familiar with this fact already.

What about 2 Kings 2:11: "And Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

This verse has of course been taken to mean that Elijah went to heaven and then so will we when we die. The Jewish word that is translated as heaven literally means, "sky." I will explain this verse by saying that what happened to Elijah was not that he was taken up to heaven where God dwells, but that he was translated to another location on earth. This explanation is very easy to prove. Read 1 Kings 18:7-16 where Elijah is speaking to Obadiah, King Ahab's vizier. We see in verse 8 that Elijah asks Obadiah to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here. Obadiah replies that there is no nation or kingdom that Ahab has not searched for Elijah in, and that they could not find him. In verse12 Obadiah says to Elijah that he is afraid to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here because when he leaves, the Spirit of the LORD will carry him off somewhere that he does not know, and Ahab will have him killed.
"After I leave you, the Spirit of the LORD will carry you to some place I do not know, and when I go to inform Ahab and he does not find you, he will have me killed."

Being translated is not too common in the Bible but it does happen. Philip was translated in Acts 8:39:
"When they came out of the water, The Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch saw him no more."

Another excellent verse to show that Elijah is still on earth after the event on the chariot of fire is that he writes a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:10-13 telling him that the LORD will strike his people with a great plague. Verse 12 is worth quoting:
"He (Jehoram) received a letter from the prophet Elijah with this message."

The crucial point in these verses is that Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram who was the son of King Jehoshaphat. Elijah was transported during the reign of King Jehoshaphat. Jehoram came after Jehoshaphat, and it was Jehoram that received a letter from Elijah. The obvious conclusion is that Elijah is still alive here on earth. If Elijah did go to heaven, then how could we explain Jesus' statement in John 3:13: "No one has gone up to heaven."  Is Jesus wrong? Or is it that man's interpretation of this verse is wrong?

What about Enoch?

The problem with Enoch is two-fold. The first is in Genesis 5:24, it states:
"Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him."

In order to understand this verse you will have to read all of chapter five. People claim that since of everyone else it is said, "then he died" and of Enoch it is not, but instead it says that he "walked with God, for God took him," then that means that Enoch went to heaven with God. If you read the paragraph that talks about Enoch without this preconceived idea, you will come to the conclusion that Enoch died.
It says in verse 23:
"That the whole lifetime of Enoch was three hundred and sixty-five years."

To me that implies that Enoch's whole lifetime was three hundred and sixty-five years and then he died. I do not see any hint that Enoch did not die. It says that "Enoch walked with God," but so did Noah in Genesis 6:10:
"Noah, a good man and blameless in that age, for he walked with God."

"Walked with God," means that the person follows God's will. "God took him," means that God took his breath of life and that person died. We still use this saying today, we commonly say that God took a family member or a friend when we mean that someone died. The word translated as "took" is the Hebrew word laqah. It means:
laqah – of removal by death (The Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon).

An excellent example of the usage of this word is in Ezekiel 33:6:
"But if the watchman sees the sword coming and fails to blow the warning trumpet, so that the sword comes and takes (laqah) anyone, I will hold the watchman responsible for that person's death, even though that person is taken (laqah) because of their own sin."

Notice how it is used, the sword comes and takes someone, in other words, kills someone. This is why the watchman will be held responsible for that person's death.
So why is there a difference between the phrases of all the other people mentioned and Enoch? There is no clear-cut answer, but my opinion is that something happened to Enoch that cut his life short. Either an accident or illness, but something that prevented him from dying of old age like the others. Everyone mentioned lived to over nine hundred years old, except Lamech who lived to almost eight hundred years old. However, Enoch only lived to be three hundred and sixty-five years old. Something happened to Enoch that cut his life short; this is why it is said, "God took him."

The second verse is in Hebrews 11:5 where Paul is speaking about the faith of the ancients. It says:
"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was found no more because God had taken him."

The problem that we arrive at if we say that because of this verse Enoch did not die, is that the same author in the same chapter in verse 13 says that all the ancients that he was talking about (which Enoch was one of) have died:
"All these died in faith."

So Abraham and Noah and Enoch and all the others mentioned died. So how do we explain verse 5? The clue is in knowing what the author meant when he said "That he should not see death." Obviously he does not mean that he did not die because he writes a few verses later that he did die.

In John 8:51 Jesus says:
"I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death."

This is identical to Hebrews 11:5. I do not think that Jesus meant that whoever keeps his word will be taken to heaven without ever experiencing death. It is more likely that Jesus means that whoever keeps his word will not experience eternal death. That they will be resurrected on the last day. Hebrews 11:5 meaning is probably along these lines.

For me, I am convinced that Enoch did die. I cannot let one verse that I cannot explain fully counter all the evidence in the massive amount of verses that are very specific on death.
Paul who wrote Hebrews says in Romans 5:12:
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."

Death came to all men, that includes Enoch. This statement of Paul also strengthens the position of Hebrews 11:13 "They all died in faith."

If we isolate Enoch from all the evidence on death, the preponderance of the evidence is about 75% in favor that Enoch died, and 25% that he did not see death. If we do not isolate Enoch from all the other Scriptures on death Enoch is really not a factor.
If Enoch went to heaven, then again, we have to assume that Jesus was wrong in John 3:13:    "No one has gone up to heaven."  

So who's wrong our tradition or Jesus?

Paul

Quote from: Pierac on November 09, 2008, 06:46:08 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 11:31:26 PM
Pierac,

The verses you quotes are absolutely clear.
Until I read:
Deuteronomy 18:10-11  There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,  11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

1 Samuel 28:7  Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

So the dead know nothing until resurrected.
But some like sorcerers can talk with the dead.
The dead are awake then. Are they still dead then?
If they can speak they perhaps also can walk/haunt?

1Sa 28:6  When Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets.

Personally,  I don't believe a witch could raise the dead  and have Samuel speak to Saul when God Himself refuse to do so. Also on who's behalf did Samuel speak? I had some research on this but can't seem to locate it :dontknow:

Then my question is why did God forbid it? If it isn't possible why forbid it?
That would be the same as forbidding having a  chat with a pink flying elephant.
All things that are forbidden in the Bible are things that can be done.
Why should this be an exception?

Wow WhiteWings, that is really one to think about!

Good Question

Blessings
Dee

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 09, 2008, 12:53:58 PM

Quote from: Pierac on November 09, 2008, 06:46:08 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 11:31:26 PM
Pierac,

The verses you quotes are absolutely clear.
Until I read:
Deuteronomy 18:10-11  There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,  11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

1 Samuel 28:7  Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

So the dead know nothing until resurrected.
But some like sorcerers can talk with the dead.
The dead are awake then. Are they still dead then?
If they can speak they perhaps also can walk/haunt?

1Sa 28:6  When Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets.

Personally,  I don't believe a witch could raise the dead  and have Samuel speak to Saul when God Himself refuse to do so. Also on who's behalf did Samuel speak? I had some research on this but can't seem to locate it :dontknow:

Then my question is why did God forbid it? If it isn't possible why forbid it?
That would be the same as forbidding having a  chat with a pink flying elephant.
All things that are forbidden in the Bible are things that can be done.
Why should this be an exception?

Maybe He forbid it because God knows the spirits are not human?  :dontknow:

Paul

QuotePersonally,  I don't believe a witch could raise the dead and have Samuel speak to Saul when God Himself refuse to do so. Also on who's behalf did Samuel speak? I had some research on this but can't seem to locate it

Pehaps you where looking for the verses below?

Quote1 Samuel 28:6-17 
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Then said Samuel,  Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

So the Saul actually spoke to the dead Samuel with the help of a medium.

QuoteMaybe He forbid it because God knows the spirits are not human?

Samuel was a human spirit. And a good one.
So not all spirits that answer are inhuman. Pehaps teh majority is and therefore it's best to never call any spirit.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 09, 2008, 08:53:36 PM

QuotePersonally,  I don't believe a witch could raise the dead and have Samuel speak to Saul when God Himself refuse to do so. Also on who's behalf did Samuel speak? I had some research on this but can't seem to locate it

Pehaps you where looking for the verses below?

Quote1 Samuel 28:6-17 
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Then said Samuel,  Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

So the Saul actually spoke to the dead Samuel with the help of a medium.

QuoteMaybe He forbid it because God knows the spirits are not human?

Samuel was a human spirit. And a good one.
So not all spirits that answer are inhuman. Pehaps teh majority is and therefore it's best to never call any spirit.

How do you know it was Samuel?  

I watched this testimony yet again. He does confirm that he knew that if the darkness gets him it would be forever. This man became a minister after his experience. Don't think he makes much money out of his testimony. I really dunno. This is one NDE that is hard to dismiss.

Quote from: DeeDee on November 11, 2008, 07:47:54 AM
I watched this testimony yet again. He does confirm that he knew that if the darkness gets him it would be forever. This man became a minister after his experience. Don't think he makes much money out of his testimony. I really dunno. This is one NDE that is hard to dismiss.

How did he "know" that?  Did he really know it, or thought he knew it based on what he already believed?  I don't know, but I think we have to be able to go back to scripture.  And I see hundreds of scriptures that speak to UR (in fact there's a list I have of 600 scriptures)...and when accurately translated and rightly divided, any scriptures that seem to indicate ET can be put in proper context to show they don't mean that at all.

God really does love us  :thumbsup:.

Quote from: Pierac on November 11, 2008, 06:15:43 AM
How do you know it was Samuel?  

Then said Samuel,

Quote from: DeeDee on November 11, 2008, 07:47:54 AM
He does confirm that he knew that if the darkness gets him it would be forever. This man became a minister after his experience. Don't think he makes much money out of his testimony. I really dunno. This is one NDE that is hard to dismiss.

Perhaps he had a KJV translator that got forever and agelasting mixed up  :laughing7:
Perhaps NDEs can also be given by satan?

In public Jesus always spoke in parables. In private he did not speak in parables to His disciples. Is an NDE public or private?
The visions mentioned/explained in the Bible where parables too. AFAIK they never showed actual things.

Is there any reason to believe NDEs aren't just parables? Assuming they aren't fake and/or are coming from evil spirits instead of from Jesus?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2008, 09:15:57 AM

Quote from: Pierac on November 11, 2008, 06:15:43 AM
How do you know it was Samuel?  

Then said Samuel,

Then Samuel said according to whom?  

1Sa 28:11  The woman replied, "Who is it that I should bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up for me Samuel."
1Sa 28:12  When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out loudly. The woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
1Sa 28:13  The king said to her, "Don't be afraid! What have you seen?" The woman replied to Saul, "I have seen one like a god coming up from the ground!"
1Sa 28:14  He said to her, "What about his appearance?" She said, "An old man is coming up! He is wrapped in a robe!" Then Saul realized it was Samuel, and he bowed his face toward the ground and kneeled down.

You will note several issues with these verses. First she sees "one like a God coming up from the ground. This is a description different from a human like being? You will also note, Saul can not see this being as it's/His description has to be explained to Saul. Saul then believes it is Samuel based upon the description given to him. (We must also note Saul is in a distressed state of mind at this time too.)

Scripture must interpret scripture and I just find it hard to believe this one verse can out way the others listed below. Given the issues I have discussed

QuoteGen 3:19  By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Psa 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

Psa 13:3  Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death,

Psa 22:15  my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.

Psa 88:10  Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah   No.

Psa 115:17  The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

Psa 146:4  When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Job 7:21  Why do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I shall lie in the earth; you will seek me, but I shall not be."

Ecc 3:18-19  I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19  For the fate of the sons of men and the fate
of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath (Spirit rûaḥ) and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

Ecc 12:7  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.  Notice it is God's Spirit that returns back to him. It is not our spirit, The word is rûaḥ: A feminine noun meaning spirit, wind, breath.

Ecc 9:4  But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Ecc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Isa 26:19  Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Dan 12:2  And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Joh 5:28  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice   Who are in the tombs if we are with Jesus at death?  

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.  That means no one!

Joh 11:11  After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him."   ... 14  So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

Joh 11:24  Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."  Notice it does not say on his last day!

Act 7:60  And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.  Like Lazarus, dead!

Act 2:34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

Act 2:29  "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.  And he is still there!  

1Co 15:26  The last enemy to be destroyed is death. The last not first!

1Th 4:13  But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.  Asleep like Lazarus, dead

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise
first.  How can the dead rise if they are in heaven? Note it reads dead, not body!  

Now could it have been Samuel? Maybe? Could God have raised Him up for this purpose? Maybe,  :dontknow:

One thing is clear, The witch was totally suprised by what happened, giving the impression she has never seen anything like this before.  

Then the woman saw Samuel, she cried out loudly. The woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

It's clear she knew some supernatural forces were at work that were beyond her control. She only recognized Saul when she saw a god like being coming up from the ground! Clearly from her scream this was not a common event for her.

Instresting verse to study.

Paul






 

One of the foremost men of God in recorded human history -- whose word never fell to the ground, never failed, was never rendered inoperative or obsolete -- cannot have turned against his God, his Savior and Lord beyond the grave.  It is inconceivable that Samuel would defy his Father, his Master, his Beloved at the summons of a witch!  And Saul, who was rejected for repeatedly rejecting the Word of IEUE,  suffered the consequences for his disobedience.  For fraternizing with demons, he was entangled in the curse of death they pronounced against him.

The Word of IEUE which Saul in his end defied:

9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter (who uses spell inducing potions, drugs), or a witch,
11 Or a charmer (a hypnotist), or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer (a medium who contacts the dead).
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

--- Deuteronomy 18:9-14, AV

I'm no scribe as all are aware by now... :laughing7:

Many of your verses speak about asleep, not worshipping etc.
Then I ask myself why?
a] Because its totally 100% impossible to do otherwise?
b] Or is it just that they can't without help. When asleep you have no interaction until you wake up.

QuoteThen Samuel said according to whom?

I guess your point is that the witch can be lying or is deceived herself?
Could be. But somehow the verse is not their to claim that it's impossible to talk with the dead.
Indeed it could be a demon is deceiving her and any other medium.
But then I would hav expect that something goes terribly wrong. As a warning.

QuoteThen the woman saw Samuel, she cried out loudly. The woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

It's clear she knew some supernatural forces were at work that were beyond her control. She only recognized Saul when she saw a god like being coming up from the ground! Clearly from her scream this was not a common event for her.

I understand your conclusion but mine is different

Quote1Sa 28:13  The king said to her, "Don't be afraid! What have you seen?" The woman replied to Saul, "I have seen one like a god coming up from the ground!"
1Sa 28:14  He said to her, "What about his appearance?" She said, "An old man is coming up! He is wrapped in a robe!" Then Saul realized it was Samuel, and he bowed his face toward the ground and kneeled down.

"a god"
The real/only God is with a capital G
And He's not "a" but "our" or just "God"
To me it just is a that the display was great. Looked powerful. Mighty. Just like a great king.
The witch was scarred because she has awaken a person with a very strong link to God.

Just my :2c:
Basicly I see no use of this very and the command to forbit talking to the dead if it isn't possible at all.
:thumbsup:

Interesting link: http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0928.htm

I'm currently a bit on the fence about NDE's, but I think there are reasons to believe many of them are genuine.
Genuine what, is a different matter. One of the interesting characteristics of the majority of NDE's is that nearly all of the accounts I've read have met with some spiritual figure that they identify as God or Jesus. Occasionally, it is identified Buddha or some other religious figure. Most of the accounts also cause these people to return with a belief (they were told or shown) that "hell" is not endless, but for a time only. Most who go to "hell" are rescued from it when they call on God or Jesus, even the athiests. Most of them also come back with a message surrounding the idea that Love is the most important thing. Which is what Jesus said...

I dunno. It seems like most of the verified accounts (where they were clinically dead for hours or days) are consistent enough with each other to establish general patterns without being so similar that they're simply copycatting each other. A good site to check out to read numerous NDE's and compare and contrast compiled findings from the accounts is www.near-death.com if you'd like to do some research on your own.

I found the site very helpful, and many of the accounts deeply touched me; impressing upon me in a fresh way how great the love of God is.

Quote from: Doc on November 26, 2008, 10:01:00 PM

I found the site very helpful, and many of the accounts deeply touched me; impressing upon me in a fresh way how great the love of God is.

People are generally transformed by NDEs. Of course an atheist will answer "Sure they're transformed. Being brain-dead for awhile will do that to a person"  :happygrin:

How to explain it almost always being a positive change??? Hmmmm...

You call that positive if people start to believe because of such an experience?
Isn't a relation with God supposed to be based on love and understanding instead of scare tactics?

Quote from: Doc on November 26, 2008, 10:01:00 PM
I'm currently a bit on the fence about NDE's, but I think there are reasons to believe many of them are genuine.
Genuine what, is a different matter. One of the interesting characteristics of the majority of NDE's is that nearly all of the accounts I've read have met with some spiritual figure that they identify as God or Jesus. Occasionally, it is identified Buddha or some other religious figure. Most of the accounts also cause these people to return with a belief (they were told or shown) that "hell" is not endless, but for a time only. Most who go to "hell" are rescued from it when they call on God or Jesus, even the athiests. Most of them also come back with a message surrounding the idea that Love is the most important thing. Which is what Jesus said...

I dunno. It seems like most of the verified accounts (where they were clinically dead for hours or days) are consistent enough with each other to establish general patterns without being so similar that they're simply copycatting each other. A good site to check out to read numerous NDE's and compare and contrast compiled findings from the accounts is www.near-death.com if you'd like to do some research on your own.

I found the site very helpful, and many of the accounts deeply touched me; impressing upon me in a fresh way how great the love of God is.

Have you heard about the Nigerian minister who died and also had an NDE of hell? This man was already in the mortuary when he woke up. His name is Daniel Ekechukwu. Do an internet search on him and his NDE. This one and the one that Mickey Robinson had are the only 2 that really shake me a bit. Go and read about it and you let me know what you think.

about if the dead are living, there is abook out of a Seventh Day Adventist, Walter J. Veith, "Truth Matters - Escaping the Labyrinth of Error", i wanna buy this book in german, i dont know if its good, but i read excerpts from it, i think he writes about the stuff with Samuel, he believes in Annihalitionism, but they reject the idea of hell and that the dead live yet in any form very biblically and trustworthy in my view so its also interesting for universalists.

why do so many believe here that NDEs are thrustworthy?

Quote from: sven on November 27, 2008, 10:47:11 PM
about if the dead are living, there is abook out of a Seventh Day Adventist, Walter J. Veith, "Truth Matters - Escaping the Labyrinth of Error", i wanna buy this book in german, i dont know if its good, but i read excerpts from it, i think he writes about the stuff with Samuel, he believes in Annihalitionism, but they reject the idea of hell and that the dead live yet in any form very biblically and trustworthy in my view so its also interesting for universalists.

why do so many believe here that NDEs are thrustworthy?

My father had an NDE where he heard Jesus speak to him.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 27, 2008, 11:54:54 AM
You call that positive if people start to believe because of such an experience?
Isn't a relation with God supposed to be based on love and understanding instead of scare tactics?

I was referring to NDEs in general - the most common ones, where people see the light at the end of the tunnel and come back with a sense of peace and tranquility and a new outlook. This is the overwhelming majority of NDE cases. 

QuoteHave you heard about the Nigerian minister who died and also had an NDE of hell? This man was already in the mortuary when he woke up. His name is Daniel Ekechukwu. Do an internet search on him and his NDE. This one and the one that Mickey Robinson had are the only 2 that really shake me a bit. Go and read about it and you let me know what you think.

Above I am quoting myself because I think checking out Daniel Ekechukwu will strengthen my point. Someone asked why some believe in NDE's, well its simple. When you see a strong testimony like the above two have given, it does make you wonder why people would lie about something so serious. Especially when they don't gain anything financially. Only logical explanation is that NDE's are real, BUT not necessarily in the sense that the NDEr is perceiving them. They could be anything in fact since "modern science" can't figure it out. Something is definately happening to these people, only God knows what it is tho.

Quote from: DeeDee on November 28, 2008, 10:49:06 AM

Above I am quoting myself because I think checking out Daniel Ekechukwu will strengthen my point. Someone asked why some believe in NDE's, well its simple. When you see a strong testimony like the above two have given, it does make you wonder why people would lie about something so serious. Especially when they don't gain anything financially.

I have heard about this case before. Problem is, he is a born again pastor who was praying for forgiveness from God on his way to the hospital but died (the angel told him) without forgiving his wife so his sins were not forgiven and so he would have to go to hell for them because his record was blemished with this unforgiveness.

As Daniel began to panic the angel says "but" ....... (pregnant pause) ..... "the rich man's prayer in Luke 16 will now be answered"! (Talk about the right place at the right time! How lucky can this guy Daniel be???? :mshock:)  and he finds out he would not have to go to hell after all (whew - that was CLOSE!) So, does this mean he went to the rich man's 5 brothers? No - it means he gets to go back home and get a second chance to avoid hell. And to warn us. So the rich man's prayer wasn't answered (the angel LIED!!!)

Big problem: According to this story (it actually spells this out) if you happen to die having not absolute forgiveness in your heart for everyone and shown perfect mercy for all whom you ever encountered in this life you will go to hell. You will not get forgiveness or mercy (ie: you must be perfect to be saved :sigh:).

This is such absolute B.S. it defies sanity....   

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 28, 2008, 12:27:07 PM

Quote from: DeeDee on November 28, 2008, 10:49:06 AM

Above I am quoting myself because I think checking out Daniel Ekechukwu will strengthen my point. Someone asked why some believe in NDE's, well its simple. When you see a strong testimony like the above two have given, it does make you wonder why people would lie about something so serious. Especially when they don't gain anything financially.

I have heard about this case before. Problem is, he is a born again pastor who was praying for forgiveness from God on his way to the hospital but died (the angel told him) without forgiving his wife so his sins were not forgiven and so he would have to go to hell for them because his record was blemished with this unforgiveness.

As Daniel began to panic the angel says "but" ....... (pregnant pause) ..... "the rich man's prayer in Luke 16 will now be answered"! (Talk about the right place at the right time! How lucky can this guy Daniel be???? :mshock:)  and he finds out he would not have to go to hell after all (whew - that was CLOSE!) So, does this mean he went to the rich man's 5 brothers? No - it means he gets to go back home and get a second chance to avoid hell. And to warn us. So the rich man's prayer wasn't answered (the angel LIED!!!)

Big problem: According to this story (it actually spells this out) if you happen to die having not absolute forgiveness in your heart for everyone and shown perfect mercy for all whom you ever encountered in this life you will go to hell. You will not get forgiveness or mercy (ie: you must be perfect to be saved :sigh:).

This is such absolute B.S. it defies sanity....   

I have seen stories since about people doubting the truthfulness of this pastor. It seems the story about him being embalmed already, changes in interviews. The only reason these "testimonies" give me the creeps is because they are both by ministers, but I think I am at that point now that I just shrug off testimonies like this. All have their flaws (the testimonies). Why they do things like this tho is still a mystery to me.  What do they gain from it?

Quote from: DeeDee on November 28, 2008, 01:24:40 PM
I have seen stories since about people doubting the truthfulness of this pastor. It seems the story about him being embalmed already, changes in interviews. The only reason these "testimonies" give me the creeps is because they are both by ministers, but I think I am at that point now that I just shrug off testimonies like this. All have their flaws (the testimonies). Why they do things like this tho is still a mystery to me.  What do they gain from it?

They are fed this stuff their whole lives. Many times pastors have VERY few converts and it tears at them (their own failures).

I heard ANOTHER account of an NDE (inspired from this one?) where a guy claims most of the people in hell are pastors and christians  :mshock:
Because they 'knew better' and still didn't give God their all.

Do you see the MAJOR POINTS which show this is all false? And we have to be perfect to get forgiven? That doesn't make any sense.
Why did they get a second chance? Why doesn't everybody? Surely if this were true (fire of hell) everyone would get the same chance to see for themselves and re-consider!

One of the reasons I don't believe Bill's NDE is b/c he talked about someone who had died in the Holocaust going to Hell. I don't believe ppl who died in the Holocaust went to Hell

Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on November 28, 2008, 09:09:59 PM
One of the reasons I don't believe Bill's NDE is b/c he talked about someone who had died in the Holocaust going to Hell. I don't believe ppl who died in the Holocaust went to Hell

Hun I don't believe anyone goes to hell. Well not the classic hell in anyhow. I know we get judged and punished accordingly but I really dont' believe its an eternal fire lake that we get thrown into.

Quote from: DeeDee on November 28, 2008, 01:24:40 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 28, 2008, 12:27:07 PM

Quote from: DeeDee on November 28, 2008, 10:49:06 AM

Above I am quoting myself because I think checking out Daniel Ekechukwu will strengthen my point. Someone asked why some believe in NDE's, well its simple. When you see a strong testimony like the above two have given, it does make you wonder why people would lie about something so serious. Especially when they don't gain anything financially.

I have heard about this case before. Problem is, he is a born again pastor who was praying for forgiveness from God on his way to the hospital but died (the angel told him) without forgiving his wife so his sins were not forgiven and so he would have to go to hell for them because his record was blemished with this unforgiveness.

As Daniel began to panic the angel says "but" ....... (pregnant pause) ..... "the rich man's prayer in Luke 16 will now be answered"! (Talk about the right place at the right time! How lucky can this guy Daniel be???? :mshock:)  and he finds out he would not have to go to hell after all (whew - that was CLOSE!) So, does this mean he went to the rich man's 5 brothers? No - it means he gets to go back home and get a second chance to avoid hell. And to warn us. So the rich man's prayer wasn't answered (the angel LIED!!!)

Big problem: According to this story (it actually spells this out) if you happen to die having not absolute forgiveness in your heart for everyone and shown perfect mercy for all whom you ever encountered in this life you will go to hell. You will not get forgiveness or mercy (ie: you must be perfect to be saved :sigh:).

This is such absolute B.S. it defies sanity....   

I have seen stories since about people doubting the truthfulness of this pastor. It seems the story about him being embalmed already, changes in interviews. The only reason these "testimonies" give me the creeps is because they are both by ministers, but I think I am at that point now that I just shrug off testimonies like this. All have their flaws (the testimonies). Why they do things like this tho is still a mystery to me.  What do they gain from it?

Dee Dee; I've found in looking over many NDE accounts that the "outliers" (ones that are significantly different from most) like this pastor's are the ones that are most suspect. It's also interesting to note that it's typically the people who had a strong belief along the lines of their experience prior to their experience that end up with these kinds of stories. One of the interesting features of NDE's is that people tend to experience what they expect to experience, if they have an expectation to begin with.

Hey Pierac,

Great posts on what happens to the soul after death. I learned quite alot.

I like the fact that you supported your argument, with a tremendous amount of scripture.

I will hold on to those posts.

At peace

Edit: looking through the bible I found this verse:

Luke 23:43 " Jesus answered him,  I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Quite perplexing, any thoughts on this, thx.

NDEs are a secret guilty pleasure of mine.  I second Doc's recommendation to visit the near death experience website.  My own opinion is that NDE accounts should be taken with a grain of salt, but if you read them with an open heart, they can be very life affirming and get you to look and think about things in new, often better ways. 

That said, there are a couple of characteristics about NDEs which make accounts like this one less enlightening than they may appear to be.  First off, there is a very common notion among those who have had NDEs that NDEs are very, very subjective.  You carry your own assumptions with you.  I remember reading the NDE of a pastor who said that he saw the line to get into heaven (which he was excluded from) and he just automatically assumed that the people going into heaven were all born-again believers.  Likewise, a person who thinks hell is forever will hold onto that belief and even see it as affirmed even if there is nothing which actually affirms their assumptions.  So, this guy may be speaking as honestly as he is able for all we know.  However, it is his understanding of the truth that he is recounting; which may or may not be an accurate representation of the events.

The other characteristic of NDEs is lapses in which memories one is allowed to take back with them.  NDEs which last for any length of time almost always include some account of being told things or remembering things while they were "there" which they were not allowed to retain knowledge of.  For some reason, this forgetting (of who we are, why we are here, etc) seems to be a fundamental component of human existence.  So, what this guy remembers is almost certainly incomplete. 

Anyhow, like I said, I would encourage others to go to a NDE website and poke around.  It is a bit challenging, but overall I've found many of the accounts to be helpful thought exercises if nothing else.

Oh, and for those who are interested in the biblical account of what happens when we die, NT Wright just wrote a book on the topic.  I think it's called "Rethinking heaven".  He makes many of the same points that some here have about disembodied spirits and duality. 

I really like NT Wright. He's pretty sharp on most things, though sadly not a universalist (though he's been accused of being one from time to time :laughing7:)

I found this very interesting article:

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0928.htm

I used to wonder about the 'medium of Endor' account, because the claim that Samuel must really be an evil spirit pretending to be the 'dead' Samuel, didn't seem to quite gel.  The article makes some points that Whitewings, I think, has made.  It does seem to show that the real Samuel was 'woken up' or 'brought up' from wherever he was.