Some article I found from Peter Kreeft on his website regaurding hell

[Universalist Catholic]

The hell with hell! says the modern mind. Of all Christianity's teachings, hell is certainly the least popular. Non-Christians ignore it, weak Christians excuse it, and anti-Christians attack it.

Some, like Bertrand Russell in his famous essay "Why I Am Not a Christian", argue that because Jesus clearly taught it, he was not a good moral teacher. (Russell's essay, by the way, makes fine devotional reading for a Christian. My college roommate was about to lose his faith until he read it; he said to me, "If those are the arguments against Christianity, I'd better be a Christian.")

Why do we believe there's a hell? Not because we're vindictive. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." Why, then? Simply because we've been told, by Christ himself. There's a popular fallacy that Jesus spoke only comforting words and that the fear of hell began with Saint Paul. The textual truth is the opposite: Jesus uttered many "hell fire and damnation" sermons, while nearly all the passages that offer any hope to the universalist (who believe all men will be saved in the end) are from Paul.

Fear of hell is not a base motive. As George MacDonald says, "As long as there are wild beasts about, it is better to be afraid than secure. "God's graciousness accepts even the "low" motive of fear of hell for salvation if that's the best we can muster. His arms are open to all prodigals. He is not high-minded, like some of his detractors. All's fair in love and war. And life is both.

Hell follows from two other doctrines: heaven and free will. If there is a heaven, there can be a not-heaven. And if there is free will, we can act on it and abuse it. Those who deny hell must also deny either heaven (as does Western secularism) or free will (as does Eastern pantheism).

Hell and heaven make life serious. Heaven without hell removes the bite from life's drama. C. S. Lewis once said that he never met a single person who had a lively faith in heaven without a similar belief in hell. The height of the mountain is measured by the depth of the valley, the greatness of salvation by the awfulness of the thing we're saved from.

What is hell? The popular image of demons gleefully poking pitchforks into unrepentant posteriors misses the point of the biblical image of fire. Fire destroys. Gehenna, the word Jesus used for hell, was the valley outside Jerusalem that the Jews used for the perpetual burning of garbage because it had been desecrated by heathen tribes who used it for human sacrifice. In hell you make an eternal ash of yourself. Hell is not eternal life with torture but something far worse: eternal dying. What goes to hell, said C. S. Lewis, is "not a man, but remains".

The images for hell in Scripture are horrible, but they're only symbols. The thing symbolized is not less horrible than the symbols, but more. Spiritual fire is worse than material fire; spiritual death is worse than physical death. The pain of loss—the loss of God, who is the source of all joy—is infinitely more horrible than any torture could ever be. All who know God and his joy understand that. Saints do not need to be threatened with fire, only with loss. "All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it—or else that it was within your grasp and you have lost it forever" (C. S. Lewis).

Jesus does not tell us much detail about hell. He tells us that it exists, that it's horrible, that any man can go there. Judas seems to be one, for Jesus says of him, "It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." If no one goes to hell, it would seem to be inexcusable for Jesus to give us so many fearful warnings about it. But he does not give us population statistics. To his disciples' question "Are many saved?" he does not answer with estimates but with a forceful appeal to the will: "Strive to enter in."



Hell follows from two
other doctrines:
heaven and free will.



Jesus says the way to hell is broad and many find it and that the way to heaven is narrow and few find it. And he means it: you don't get to heaven simply by being born, by being nice, or by oozing into an eternal growth experience. But "few" here does not mean that less than half of mankind will be saved. For God speaks as our Father, not our statistician. Even one child lost is too many, and the rest saved are too few. The good shepherd who left his ninety-nine sheep safe at home to rescue his one lost sheep found even 99 percent salvation too "few". The most important question about hell, as about heaven, is the practical one: What roads lead there? They are interior, of course. In fact, heaven and hell may be the very same objective place—namely God's love, experienced oppositely by opposite souls, just as the same opera or rock concert can be heavenly for you and hellish for the reluctant guest at your side. The fires of hell maybe made of the very love of God, experienced as torture by those who hate him: the very light of God's truth, hated and fled from in vain by those who love darkness. Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever. Just as we can attain heaven by implicit as well as explicit faith ("Saint Socrates, pray for us," says Erasmus), so hell too can be reached without explicit rebellion. This is the terrible—and terribly needed—truth taught by C. S. Lewis in The Great Divorce and Charles Williams in Descent into Hell. We can drift, slide, even snooze comfortably into hell. All God's messengers, the prophets, say so.

We desperately need to hear this truth about hell again, simply out of honesty, because it is there. And also out of compassion. For when an abyss looms ahead, the least compassionate thing to tell the traveler is "peace, peace, when there is no peace". Out of love for god and man, let us tell the truth about hell!

Sure, we'll be mocked as vindictive, manipulative, or fundamentalist. Let it be so. Sometimes it seems that we're more afraid of sharing our Lord's holy unrespectability than of hell itself. It's a small price to pay for the salvation of a single infinitely precious soul. And that is the business we're supposed to be in.

This man is a Catholic Philosopher.  I read it, and honestly, it looked like the banterings of someone trying to reason out that which is nonsense.  I am posting this because some people may easily be swayed by such arguments.  What do you think?

[coldwar]

I think he's relying on a common misconception- that ALL Universalists believe there is NO hell, when in fact SOME Universalists believe there is a hell. The point that always seems to get missed, because so many seem unwilling to simply listen, is that NO Universalists believe in "eternal torment".

Sure, there are some who believe in NO torment, but more of us seem to agree there is a JUDGMENT of corrective and purifying "fire", best described by Paul that will burn up the works of wood, hay and stubble - the unprofitable works that are not on the foundation of Christ. This same "fire" will purify the gold, silver and gems - the works built upon Christ. This "fire" will not be pleasant, whether it's consuming or refining, and could be an absolute horror for those who will lose everything except their bare souls to be saved - such a horror that indeed those who must suffer it will be better to never have been born to spend their entire lives doing works that profit nothing, and must all be burned. Some of us also believe this judgment could last for "ages and ages", until there's nothing left to be burned. But we DO NOT believe it will last "forever and ever".

We also do not believe this "fire" of God's wrath and judgment is judgment for sin, for Jesus took that judgment upon himself. He said "now the judgment of this world is come... signifying the death he would die". And this is "not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world". Behold- THIS is the Gospel!!! No, the judgment of God is not for sin, but for works- either to refine or to destroy, depending on what sort they are.

WHO was Jesus addressing when he said THREE TIMES "the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die"? And WHY? He was addressing his disciples PRIVATELY, because they were starting to argue among themselves, they were forbidding others to cast out demons, they had lost their own power to cast out demons, and they had lost their salt. In other words, Jesus was warning his closest followers, the very ones we revere the most on our stained glass, that they would suffer "fire that is not quenched" (not unquenchable fire- please meditate on the difference) because their WORKS HAD BECOME UNPROFITABLE.

What is the difference between "fire that is not quenched" and "unquenchable fire"? The former is a fire that will not be put out until it has finished it's job of burning all unprofitable works, then afterward, it will have nothing to burn and so will no longer exist. The latter is a fire that cannot be extinguished no matter what- even when it has completely run out of fuel, it will keep burning anyway- does the Bible ever speak of this kind of fire? No! Does the "burning bush" that Moses witnessed still exist today? Obviously not! But has God used fire to destroy in the past? Certainly. Will he use it to destroy in the future? Of that there is no doubt.

This author also does a great dis-service to CS Lewis, especially concerning his book "The Great Divorce". This book is a must-read; an allegorical work which describes how the dead Saints are trying to persuade dead sinners to enter heaven - an allegory of George MacDonald who actually makes a cameo appearance in the book, of how "the souls in prison are preached to, continuously". Most of the sinners in the book choose not to enter heaven because they still cannot let go of their dead works, and so must "get back on the omni-bus" to enter hell-fire (which Lewis never describes as eternal). But some of the dead sinners do choose to enter heaven. True, this is not exactly Universal Salvation, but the allegory at least describes how the offer of heaven does continue to everyone, even after death.

[jabcat]

Good post.   :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

This quote of CS Lewis in the article is interesting.

C. S. Lewis once said that he never met a single person who had a lively faith in heaven without a similar belief in hell.

Evidently CS Lewis ought to get out more and actually look for some.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, good post, Coldwar.... :thumbsup:

[reFORMer]

(George MacDonald was definately a believer in Universal Salvation.)

If it wasn't so late I would go on; but, I must needs go on with this gross body of humiliation, putting it to bed for a night..."Slowly, silently walks the night in her silver schoon..."

"...and moveless fish in the water gleam, by silver reeds in a silver stream."

(thanks, Walter de la Mare.)

[Universalist Catholic]

Funny thing was this man had no scripture to back up his statements.  All based on silly philosophies. 

[Quaesitor]

Peter Kreeft should be banned, he entered the free will debate... :winkgrin:

Seriously, as Uni. Catholic just said, there is no Scriptures in his entire essay, only mere carnal reasonning. The thing is that with this kind of reasonning, you could prove the existence of Jedis and Dracula.
Nothing serious here once again.
I have yet to see ONE good argument agaisnt UR.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi UC...  :cloud9:

There is so much that can be said about this quote that is awry... but I am not sure that I have the time to get into all of them, so I'll "pick on" a few...  :laughing7:

Btw... your conclusion at the end is postively truthful.

The hell with hell! says the modern mind. Of all Christianity's teachings, hell is certainly the least popular. Non-Christians ignore it, weak Christians excuse it, and anti-Christians attack it.

This is such a scattered beginning, that cannot be squared in any of these... let's take them one at a time...

(1) "Non-Christians IGNORE it" --- Upon what basis does this rest?  "non-christians" dont even KNOW of it!  2/3's of the Earths population does not even pay any attention to Chrisitianity, and most of it is due to the UNREALISTIC presentation of such things as HELL...

(2) "weak Christians EXCUSE it" --- I do not know YOUR experience, but in 20+ years amidst membership and involvement with a "hell teaching" organization (Salvation Army) and interaction with several others (Assembly of God, Charismatic/Pentecostal/Healing Rooms International)... I never once heard anyone "excuse hell"... Like most FALSE teachings, they just accept that "Hell" is "part of God's plan" and that you had better be in line with Him or you will experience that "part".  Displaying THREATENING bumper stickers on their cars that say such as:  "if you don't believe there's a God, you BETTER BE RIGHT!!!" ...I did not experience any of them "excusing hell"...

(3) "anti-Christians attack it" --- Now there is a fallacy.  I am and have been a believer in Christ for 34 years, 25 of it spent in ET or ED organizations... and even door to door witnessing, street witnessing, group discussions, counseling... not once did I ever experience an attack against "hell" by one holding a position of "anti-Christian"

I have heard many within the church express GREAT dismay that "hell" is eternal, ...fearing for family, friends, etc... that have not "accepted Christ"...

Some, like Bertrand Russell in his famous essay "Why I Am Not a Christian", argue that because Jesus clearly taught it, he was not a good moral teacher.

Anyone making such a statement has not studied the teachings of CHRIST very thoroughly at all! 

JESUS used only TWO words -- Gehenna and Hades (of the 4 words) which are translated "hell" in the Bible, and His mention of these 2 words took place on only 7 (total) occasions in 3.5 YEARS of teaching!  That is at the astounding rate of almost TWICE a YEAR!  :laughing7:

To say that He "CLEARLY" taught this teaching, is as much of a reach as saying that He taught of subscribing to Cable TV when it would be available!  He spoke parabolically to the JEWS, which includes these words... which are NOT indicative of an ETERNAL "place" in which it is FALSELY asserted by the GOSPELs of TORMENT, or DEATH, that YHVH (God of LOVE, which IS LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 ) shall TORTURE His created beings...  :thumbdown:

Mistranslation and misunderstanding of TEXTS by those who are NOT believers, cannot be accepted as viable observation, any more than Engineering Schematics can be explained by a dumb musician like me, and readily accepted as A "TRUE" interpretation of them...

For CHRIST and His actions were ALWAYS SPIRITUAL, and accepting the observation of an UNSPIRITUAL person which has never experienced the CHRIST (such as Bertrand Russell), is as unqualified and bass-ackwards, ...as a sweet and kindly person which has never even broken the law, attempting to describe the INTIMATE experience of PRISON LIFE and its inhabitants.

Why do we believe there's a hell? Not because we're vindictive. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." Why, then? Simply because we've been told, by Christ himself. There's a popular fallacy that Jesus spoke only comforting words and that the fear of hell began with Saint Paul. The textual truth is the opposite: Jesus uttered many "hell fire and damnation" sermons, while nearly all the passages that offer any hope to the universalist (who believe all men will be saved in the end) are from Paul.

Several things "out of keeter" here...

FIRST --- CHRIST did NOT "utter" MANY -- "Hell fire and damnation sermons"!  Where?  He only made mention of Hades or Gehenna on SEVEN [7] total "days" in approximately 1277 DAYS (3.5 years) of preaching! 

SECOND --- CHRIST is an UNCHANGING entity -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 -- SENT by His Father [YHVH] who is ALSO an UNCHANGING entity -- Mal 3:6 -- and in that "sending" was NOT to CONDEMN (damn) -- John 3:17

So HOW then might it be concluded and then accepted that though He is UNCHANGING and was SENT NOT to CONDEMN (damn), that He would PREACH this to men?  AND that He being an UNCHANGING entity, would CHANGE the agenda of YHVH and His mission, and CONDEMN MOST of the human race????  :mshock:

THIRD --- Anyone teaching others that "HELL" originated with PAUL, is LYING... Produce even ONE verse in all his writings that verifies "HELL" as taught by him.   There is only ONE MENTION of any of the FOUR words which are MIStranslated "hell" in the Bible (sheol,hades,tartaroo,gehenna) within Paul's writings... and it is found in -- 1 Cor 15:54 -- [hades] which notes that whatever "HADES" IS... (Hell or Grave) it GETS ZERO ...VICTORY!

Fear of hell is not a base motive. As George MacDonald says, "As long as there are wild beasts about, it is better to be afraid than secure. "God's graciousness accepts even the "low" motive of fear of hell for salvation if that's the best we can muster. His arms are open to all prodigals. He is not high-minded, like some of his detractors. All's fair in love and war. And life is both.

What a crock!  The WORD notes that GOD is LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- and in the context of naming Him LOVE, it notes that the mission of LOVE is to CAST OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18

Hell follows from two other doctrines: heaven and free will. If there is a heaven, there can be a not-heaven.

There IS a "not Heaven"... it is THIS LIFE! (which IS the lake of FIRE, in which CHRIST was tried -- Rev 3:18 -- and in which ALL men are tried -- Mark 9:49)

Does ANYONE think themselves to BE in "HEAVEN" while living on Earth?  Does CANCER thrive in Heaven?  Does SMOG permeate the atmosphere of Heaven?  Does DEATH approach every living thing in "Heaven"? :rolleye:

And if there is free will, we can act on it and abuse it. Those who deny hell must also deny either heaven (as does Western secularism) or free will (as does Eastern pantheism).

The WORD of God mentions no such thing as "free will"... This is strictly the invention of MEN... If God "gave us" -- "free will" -- then this would find verification in His WORD. It does NOT.  If it is an UNBIBLICAL and unmentioned "gift" then, it cannot be ABUSED... for it does not exist.

Please note "free will" in Rom 9:16-21 -- where GOD is noted as MAKING both, the vessels of DISHONOR and the vessels of HONOR.  :dontknow:

Or here -- Prov 20:24 -- which notes that MAN does not even UNDERSTAND his own "way", and that the WAY in which he "goes" is of YHVH.  :dontknow:

Or here -- Eph 1:11 -- which notes that ALL THINGS are "worked" by YHVH!  What "thing" is left out of this statement?

I could go on, but what's the point?

Hell and heaven make life serious. Heaven without hell removes the bite from life's drama. C. S. Lewis once said that he never met a single person who had a lively faith in heaven without a similar belief in hell. The height of the mountain is measured by the depth of the valley, the greatness of salvation by the awfulness of the thing we're saved from.

Because MANY are fooled by the DECEPTIONS of MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- does not mean that their FALSE teaching (of hell and torment) has any basis within it... on the contrary.  Only FEW shall hear the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15 -- in which NO "hell" exists to disrupt the PEACE of it.

I'm going to stop here... as the rest of this junk filled oration is as easily refuteable...

This man is a Catholic Philosopher.  I read it, and honestly, it looked like the banterings of someone trying to reason out that which is nonsense.  I am posting this because some people may easily be swayed by such arguments.  What do you think?

You are QUITE CORRECT, ...UC!  Hell is nonsense... it does not include REASON, nor LOGIC, nor JUSTICE, nor a CONCLUSION, nor PEACE, nor LOVE, nor any other attribute of GOD who LOVES His children AND His ENTIRE Creation, for that Creation emerged FROM HIM.

...willieH  :cloud9:

[WhiteWings]

Hell and heaven make life serious. Heaven without hell removes the bite from life's drama. C. S. Lewis once said that he never met a single person who had a lively faith in heaven without a similar belief in hell.

C.S. Lewis..... :msealed:

en people question about the degree of punishment, and the eternity(!) in hell, God "allows" for sinners he loves so much, for their little (often unintentional) sins, Christian apologists often respond along the lines of what C. S Lewis said: "The door of hell is locked from the inside".

(Revelation 1:18) and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.

[Quaesitor]

Still like CS lewis though but he blessed me for a season.

[WhiteWings]

Still like CS lewis though but he blessed me for a season.

Was that during fall?  :winkgrin:  :icon_jokercolor:

I sometimes wonder if some of the writers actually believe what they write or they just write what sells best.

[Nathan]

Willie, awesome post bro.  This is definitely your element.  Thouroughly enjoyed reading your take on things.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen  :thumbsup:

[Universalist Catholic]

Does anyone know any scriptures about this kind of reasoning?  I know I've heard of this somewhere warned about in the bible.  But this kind of reasoning is not only unscriptural, its unreasonable. 

[micah7:9]

This quote of CS Lewis in the article is interesting.

C. S. Lewis once said that he never met a single person who had a lively faith in heaven without a similar belief in hell.

Evidently CS Lewis ought to get out more and actually look for some.

:thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Still like CS lewis though but he blessed me for a season.

Was that during fall?  :winkgrin:  :icon_jokercolor:

I sometimes wonder if some of the writers actually believe what they write or they just write what sells best.

Answer....what sells best. :grin:

[micah7:9]

Willie, awesome post bro.  This is definitely your element.  Thouroughly enjoyed reading your take on things.

I will second that WillieH GREAT post with all its color and icons! :happygrin:

[legoman]

Yes good post Willie.

Regarding the article in the OP, he seems to rely on the concept of free will and the idea that some people will never turn to God.... "Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever."

This idea is refuted with the set of 3 scriptures that declare every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess and swear allegiance, to the glory of the Father.  (Isaiah 45:20-23, Romans 14:11, Phil 2:9-11).  This rips to shreds the idea that some person - a "ghost" - would never turn and be saved.

[Lefein]

That also implies that God is not omnipresent enough to shine both behind, and in front of him, casting away the shadows forever as he falls at the feet of the everywhere-God!

[WhiteWings]

Don't forget the most important one Leifein.
Within.

[Universalist Catholic]

That also implies that God is not omnipresent enough to shine both behind, and in front of him, casting away the shadows forever as he falls at the feet of the everywhere-God!

He gave us a special definition of Omnipotence in some other article I spent some time refuting.  It was about hell also.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8129.0

[reFORMer]

...people question about the degree of punishment, and the eternity(!) in hell, God "allows" for sinners he loves so much, for their little (often unintentional) sins, Christian apologists often respond along the lines of what C. S Lewis said: "The door of hell is locked from the inside".

(Revelation 1:18) and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.

Marion was praying for me in tongues recently, and I understood her to say something I took as from the Lord:  "I want to come into you, close the door behind me, and leave the key outside."

[Nathan]

...people question about the degree of punishment, and the eternity(!) in hell, God "allows" for sinners he loves so much, for their little (often unintentional) sins, Christian apologists often respond along the lines of what C. S Lewis said: "The door of hell is locked from the inside".

(Revelation 1:18) and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.

Marion was praying for me in tongues recently, and I understood her to say something I took as from the Lord:  "I want to come into you, close the door behind me, and leave the key outside."

Ooooooooh!  That's gooood!!!!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That IS good......sounds like you are experiencing the "different" (from what the churches teach) level of interpretation of tongues if you "heard" what she said.  :thumbsup: I didn't even know it existed in that form until summer before last when He did it with me. Blessings....